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back to article UK military wants lasers to stop drone swarms without running out of ammo

Britain's Ministry of Defence (MoD) is seeking anti-drone technology capable of protecting troops from saturation attacks designed to overwhelm defenses or exhaust their ammunition. The tender, dubbed Project PANOPTES, is being run by UK Defence Innovation (UKDI) on behalf of the MoD, with an initial £5 million ($6.8 million) …

  1. Bebu sa Ware Silver badge
    Windows

    "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

    A high power laser could just as easily run out of power. The recovery time between firing would need to be pretty short in order not be overwhelmed and/or whacked by an attacking drone.

    Perhaps issuing the troops slingshots (shanghais) with a pocketful of pellets (for which pebbles might be substituted once exhausted) might be just as effective. According to WikiP WW1 French troops used slingshots to project grenades (Mills bombs) into the opposing trenches presumably as a makeshift for a trench (Stokes) mortar.

    1. theOtherJT Silver badge

      Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

      There is indeed no such thing as a free lunch.

      A laser powerful enough to reliably kill a drone is going to need a lot of power. Electrical power isn't free - at least out on a battlefield. You might be able to pull enough from the absolutely gigantic engines that power ships to run a laser weapon, but try that on the back of a small combat vehicle and you're liable to run it out of diesel at a bit of a rate. To carry enough extra fuel to keep the thing operating sort of constantly to be sure and bring down big drone swarms it seems likely you'd be just as well off carrying a few thousand rounds of explosive flak type ammo and a small autocannon to fire them from - basically a big automatic shotgun.

      Maybe someone's got clever plans for pulse laser type weapons that only need to operate at killing power for a few fractions of a second, but everything I've seen regarding using lasers to kill drones involves holding the laser on them long enough to heat them up so their batteries explode or it actually burns through the casing and fries the guidance electronics. That requires tracking the target and holding focus on it for a good few seconds at the very least.

      It's a fascinating area of research, but I don't see this being easy.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

        >someone's got clever plans for pulse laser

        'Q' perhaps?

        1. EvilDrSmith Silver badge
          Happy

          Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

          Where is the Inventor of The Marmite Laser when you need him (or her)?

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

            Gin and Tonic laser

      2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

        Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

        ...or it actually burns through the casing and fries the guidance electronics. That requires tracking the target and holding focus on it for a good few seconds at the very least.

        For guidance electronics, you could probably include the camera modules used by FPV-type drones. Cameras tend to be IR sensitive, so could perhaps just blind the drone/operator. But as well as power, I think tracking will also be a challenge. So where to plonk an emitter so it could track and burn drones coming in from all angles and aspects. Videos from drone strikes by both sides often shows them coming in low to the ground, or starting an attack from being parked on the road. So then how to cover all those angles?

        Which I think is also a challenge for the ship-based systems, ie if the laser's plonked on the deck & trying to hit low-profile sea drones, when they get close, the laser isn't going to be able to depress enough to hit it. Ships I guess have the option to mount them on the masts. Plus generally helped by having space for generators, and getting targetting data from the ship's sensors. Small vehicles have the power, detection and coverage challenge. But being lasers, I guess you could de-couple laser module from emitters and link those via fibre and switch the beam to the appropriate direction of attack. Then whether it'd be possible to have emitter modules in the style of PTZ camera mounts that can be small, and have some weather/dust protection. But power would seem to be the biggest challenge, so if you want a 15kW beam, you'll need a >15kW aux generator, and/or capacitor banks. Which might not be a problem, if we develop say, a drone-defence version of Ajax that could accompany & protect other vehicles.

        1. Mark #255

          Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

          The Silent Guardian "non-lethal" crowd control ray was a DoD project a while ago; a back of the envelope calculation suggests it needed a couple of hundred kW of RF power. That was mounted on top of a Hummer.

          One assumes that if the trials were real, supply of electrical energy is a solved problem; and that the logistics of supplying diesel or petrol is more straightforward than specific ammo.

          1. cyberdemon Silver badge
            Terminator

            Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

            This is going to end up being used by datacentres to prevent the pathetic meatsacks from getting near Skynet's brains, isn't it.

            One imagines something like the "obelisk of light" from C&C Tiberian Sun

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

              At least with their own generators and UPS they will have an independent power source to recharge.

          2. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

            "a back of the envelope calculation suggests it needed a couple of hundred kW of RF power. "

            And that doesn't need to be held on for minutes. A pulse can be sufficient so a liter of diesel can go a long way.

        2. John F Jennings

          Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

          generators are rated at KW per hour, but the beam is 15KW emitted PER SECOND. You need a big battery and a large generator. Your batteries need to be carefully designed to not cook off with the draw. a 15 KW laser needs about 25KW of energy to fire.

          It should work at sea - because the target can be tracked for longer and the power available on a ship is significant.

          On land its a different story. Drones might only be detected at a few hundred meters. At 15 KW, it might need 3 seconds of direct hit on a body of a drone. that might be trickey with a drone jinking.... less so at sea as you have longer.

          1. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

            Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

            Batteries, meh. I want them to build a 1GF capacitor, and I also want to be there when they accidentally short it. Maybe not too near though.

            1. MachDiamond Silver badge

              Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

              "I want them to build a 1GF capacitor, and I also want to be there when they accidentally short it."

              Elon wants to build that on the moon for his catapult. Several actually. I don't think he's done the math on the requirements nor mass.

          2. AVR Silver badge

            Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

            kW = kilowatt = 1000 joules per second. 'Watt' is a unit of the rate at which energy is used or delivered. Watts per second only makes sense as the rate of increase of power, if your power supply isn't already delivering power, and KW per hour is more or less meaningless.

            Maybe you're thinking of kilowatt-hours, which is the amount of energy a kilowatt-level source would deliver over the course of an hour, or 3.6 MJ.

            1. John F Jennings

              Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

              Thanks - absolutely spot on - I meant Jules per second, and apologies for the confusion.

              I was trying to emphasize that you need a large(ish) generator to support such a laser, and that it would take several seconds continuous hit on a point (usually) to actually down one drone. Lasers might have an output of X, but their input is significantly higher - usually 70-80% of electrical input becomes laser output. Probably the only way to get that is large aux batteries as you cannot wait recharging seconds between each shot and would want a buffer

          3. This post has been deleted by its author

          4. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

            "You need a big battery and a large generator. Your batteries need to be carefully designed to not cook off with the draw"

            One would be charging capacitors that can handle pulsed applications. Using batteries wouldn't be a good choice other than an intermediate storage stage between a generator and the capacitor bank.

          5. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

            "generators are rated at KW per hour"

            No. A 15KW generator puts out 15KW continuously. The fuel tank determines how long it can do that.

        3. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

          Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

          The pictures of Dragonfire I have seen puts it high up on the side of the superstructure, with few obstructions. Will give just short of 180 degree arc of fire, and the only thing preventing it from close range targetting will be limit of the angle of depression.

          Presumably, there will be one mounting on either side of a ship. There will be small arcs which will not be covered fore and aft, but I would expect that most attacks are likely to be from the side, ships present much larger targets from the side.

          Of course, intelligent or manually controlled guided munitions could be made to attack from either fore or aft, but ships are rarely equally protected from all angles.

          I believe that the US systems ODIN and HELIOS will be mounted in a super-firing position forward of the bridge, although the earlier LaWS demonstrator was mounted on the hanger roof. Either one will leave significant arcs of fire that won't be covered.

          When it comes to ship-mounted laser weapons, the limiting factors won't be the recharge time, it was almost certainly be the temperature of the weapon. You don't get to emit a high-powered laser pulses over a long duration without some of that energy heating up the weapon itself. Like power, cooling will be easier on a ship than on a vehicle mounted weapon.

        4. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

          "Cameras tend to be IR sensitive, so could perhaps just blind the drone/operator."

          I recall a recent story where a drone was targeted and hit the offices of the person being sought for deletion. It's not a good idea to rely on just one sensor. Combine and IMU, SatNav and vision to continuously refine the aiming point and it takes a multi-faceted defense.

      3. jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid Silver badge

        Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

        "jA laser powerful enough to reliably kill a drone is going to need a lot of power. Electrical power isn't free - at least out on a battlefield. You might be able to pull enough from the absolutely gigantic engines that power ships to run a laser weapon"

        The article links to a previous article about a ground vehicle mounted C-UAS system that uses a 15kW infra red laser. Even it were running continuously, that's only about 20hp. Let's assume the electrical system is only 50% efficient, that's still only 30kW, about the same as a very small city car engine. The internet suggests that for that, you'd need a generator about the size of a small car, but would only consume about 10litres of diesel per hour. And that's for continuous laser operation, which seems highly unlikely.

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

          >A laser powerful enough to reliably kill a drone is going to need a lot of power.

          Depends on the drone.:

          The ship board systems need a lot of power because they have to completely destroy a supersonic missile coming head on within seconds. IIRC in all the Exocet sinkings in the Falklands, the warheads didn't detonate - it was just meeting a few 100kg of rocket fuel wrapped in a 100kg of metal tube that caused the significant emotional event.

          Probably similar if you need to disrupt an incoming ballistic missile.

          But if you just need to knock out a quadcopter you probably only have to distort a propeller blade by a few % crash it, or at least disrupt it off-target

      4. John F Jennings

        Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

        15 KW laser needs about 40KW to run (per second)... to service a large commercial generator can make 200 KW that would fit on a truck - per hour. need some buffer (say a battery or accumulator).

        with range of just 1 KM, thats a big ass mortar target if its frontline.

        1. jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid Silver badge

          Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

          Sorry but, 40kW per second? That's not what you meant, was it?

          1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

            Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

            Sorry but, 40kW per second? That's not what you meant, was it?

            Physics is being abused or confused in many places, eg difference between energy and power. Or datacentres being measured by power consumption rather than work produced. Which for lasers I think really should be Joules, because that would be the work unit, especially given a laser is going to be converting electricity to photons & then heat. Then how quickly the laser could heat the target to render it ineffective. But that would probably still confuse people, especially when something like a Mars bar contains 1MJ, but its effectiveness as a weapon depends on how fast it's moving.

            Which then gets interesting designing both the laser, and the beam/pulse steering so the beam can be focused on the target long enough to destroy it. Which also might lead to countermeasures, ie there's a fun game called 'From the Depths' that's kind of a physics simulation. That has a sometimes annoying drone opponent called the 'Flying Squirrel' that uses sim-PIDs to make its flight erratic and harder to hit. Same should be possible for real drones, especially against large targets like warships. Then there's materials and there's a market for people wanting souvenir heat shield tiles from Starships. Russia, China, Iran have already solved that problem for their hypersonic missiles, but there's also lo-tech & non-ITAR possibilities like just using cork.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

              "Mars bar contains 1MJ"

              Scotland will be safe, how many MJ does a deep fried Mars bar contain?

              1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

                Scotland will be safe, how many MJ does a deep fried Mars bar contain?

                Ah, but then counter could be deep-fried drones dipped in ablative batter. Wonder if I could get some money to test the ablative properties of beer & corn batters vs lasers? Downside is I think test ranges for that kind of stuff are way up in the Scottish Highlands, and winter is coming.

            2. MachDiamond Silver badge

              Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

              "but there's also lo-tech & non-ITAR possibilities like just using cork."

              Was it the Delta II or Delta IV (or both) rockets that were using cork as an insulating layer? Worked just fine since it didn't need to last forever (10 minutes).

      5. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

        "but everything I've seen regarding using lasers to kill drones involves holding the laser on them long enough to heat them up so their batteries explode or it actually burns through the casing and fries the guidance electronics."

        The makers will then put shiny metal coatings on the drones so they reflect a lot of the laser power requiring longer beam dwell times.

        Measure v. Counter-measure

      6. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

        "It's a fascinating area of research, but I don't see this being easy."

        There's the need to break things down to basics. "Ammo" is a manufactured item that takes energy to create and transport. A laser or other directed energy weapon takes energy to create and transport. A positive for the kinetic weapon is the firearm, cannon, mortar is not nearly as complex or expensive as something like a laser. They are more rugged as well. Chances are that you'd have a bunch of guns on hand and if you lost a few to damage, you'd still have some capable of using the ammo on hand. A less rugged laster will be much more expensive so you wouldn't have that many of them in reserve which makes having lots of ammo (generators/power sources) a much smaller benefit.

    2. just4this Silver badge

      Pebbles?

      Two points, two flats and a packet of gravel is what you need.

      https://youtu.be/ffwFXGPRDu4?t=21

      1. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: Pebbles?

        "Two points, two flats and a packet of gravel is what you need."

        Wot? they've got them lying on the ground.

        "The land will provide"

        <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKYKxvYF34A>

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "without being overwhelmed or rapidly exhausting its ammunition."

      You’ll need vehicle to load than. A Kia EV9 perhaps, though a Toyota HiLux would be ideal - it’s the vehicle of choice for all terrorist groups (apart from Palestine Action - that’s probably a Ford Puma on Motability).

  2. alain williams Silver badge

    Note to self ...

    In future when I carry out drone attacks I must do so when it is foggy or raining.

    1. LogicGate Silver badge

      Re: Note to self ...

      Currently, the Russkies have most "success" when it is foggy and rainy, because the Drones have a harder time finding them.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Note to self ...

        That is the most confusing war I've ever seen.

        One minute Ukraine is attacking refineries with drones all the time the next it's the Russians using Iranian drones.

        One minute Ukrainians are using fibre optics to defeat Russian jammers the next it's Russians using fibre optic cables.

        Outside of drones one minute the Russians are running out of troops and ammunition then the next it's Ukraine. Same goes for snatching people off the street and forcing them to fight.

        Apart from the very last one this is what our press are reporting. Ever wondered if they are telling the truth on any of it?

        As for foggy and raining these are Ukraine built drones so can't they just stick an infra-red camera on them? You can get them from amazon for £30 and upwards.

        1. LogicGate Silver badge

          Re: Note to self ...

          "snatching people off the street" = conscription.

          Happens in most country facing a threat of total destruction and genocide. Is also reported in most mainstream media.

          If you were to look a little into it, you would find plenty of infrared drone footage. Is done, still atmospheric conditions can make drones less effective.

          1. retiredFool Silver badge

            Re: Note to self ...

            Russia has taken a bit further, they are conscripting North Korean's with Kim's help. Kim of course is getting help with his nuke development in exchange.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Note to self ...

              So offshoring entry level positions

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Note to self ...

                Offshoring conscription and importing lots of ammo. While integrating North Korea into the global economy. Saw reports the standards of living are quite improving there in NK

              2. cmdrklarg

                Re: Note to self ...

                Yup... complete with on the job training.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Note to self ...

              If we use our brains here, the fact America has stopped it's sabre rattling towards North Korea means we should probably assume they already have them. It's a few years since they were testing them in the mountain caves. We also aren't seeing any talks of sanctions or anything else really. Did they just go away?

              1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

                Re: Note to self ...

                >America has stopped it's sabre rattling towards North Korea means we should probably assume they already have them

                Or the Great Leader (USA) really likes those big hats and the Great Leader (NK) has promised him one

          2. Ian Johnston Silver badge

            Re: Note to self ...

            Happens in most country regimes facing a threat of total destruction and genocide lack of popular support.

            Fixed that for you.

            Best estimates is that around 100,000 Ukrainians have died in this war. Is that really preferable to speaking Russian? Likewise, around 500,000 Russians have died. Is that really preferable to treating Ukraine as a real country?

            I note that no senior politicians in either country have been killed in action, or risked their lives. Doesn't stop them forcing their peons into the wood chipper / meat grinder though.

            1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

              Re: Note to self ...

              I note that no senior politicians in either country have been killed in action, or risked their lives. Doesn't stop them forcing their peons into the wood chipper / meat grinder though.

              That might be changing. Whatever it takes, for as long as it takes probably doesn't mean Starmer's going to grab a rifle and head for a Ukrainian trench. Other people take the risk, the 'leaders' reap the rewards. But things might be changing-

              https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5yep7y48x2o

              A Russian drone has hit the headquarters of the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) during a strike in the heart of Kyiv, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has said.

              ...Foreign Minister Andriy Sybiha said the attack was a "major escalation that demands resolute responses".

              "Moscow launched this strike during a renewed push for peace - laying bare its true rejection of diplomacy," he added.

              Except nobody has been pushing for peace, only more war. Which includes Zelensky's threats to target Moscow & St Petersberg airports. And of course Ukraine's been using car & parcel bombs against Moscow restaurants, and Monaco homes. Russia's increasingly been calling out Ukraine for terrorism, so this may be the response, possibly ahead of upgrading the SMO to an ATO. It also hit near the Poland-Ukraine rail link, which might be a warning that if Ukraine keeps playing games, it'll cut that rail link and make it harder for Zelensky to leave Ukraine, or politicians & celebs to visit Kiev.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Note to self ...

                And there is the prorussian rant as usual

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Note to self ...

                What is the Russian for invading aggressor ?

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              A good reason to be very careful of who you vote for.

              Interesting that the main aggressors of the current conflicts didn't earn their spurs in a combat unit.

        2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: Note to self ...

          >That is the most confusing war I've ever seen.

          Compared to the one that started with biplanes and camel corps and ended with atom bombs and ballistic missiles?

          Where Nazis and Communist were allies with a divine emperor until they fell out and the communists allied with an imperial monarchy?

        3. Casca Silver badge

          Re: Note to self ...

          You have not read much history have you?

  3. that one in the corner Silver badge

    Ship-based - how about dinghy-based?[1]

    Any chances a proposal can be based on the documentary works of Neal Stephenson, specifically "Snow Crash"?

    Ok, the ammo isn't unlimited, but it is small and packs away neatly, so mounting on a tracking head to fulfill the autonomous bit should be doable.

    We just need people to listen to Reason.

    [1] they were in a small vessel, small enough for the heatsink to dangle overboard, so I'm still convinced they should have felt more recoil effects... discuss.

  4. KittenHuffer Silver badge

    Sharks!

    You just need to equip them with lasers! They've been doing that for decades!

    Then they just need to induced a Sharknado! Problem solved!

    1. SnailFerrous Silver badge

      Re: Sharks!

      It's what the Roysl Navy needs.

    2. Casca Silver badge

      Re: Sharks!

      Cross breed sharks with flying fish?

      1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

        Re: Sharks!

        Don't need no fancy genetic splicing. I've seen Deep Blue Sea... Unfortunately...

        Simply place your shark in a brand new all-glass Challenger 4. Call it a fish tank. 360° views, so can shoot down drones in all directions. Back-up teeth in case enemy troops attempt to capture the tank. Should be fine, until the enemy develop giant cats. Then all bets are off.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Sharks!

      Can I get funding for a new film idea I have ?

  5. segfault188
    Mushroom

    Microwaves

    non-kinetic defenses such as lasers, microwaves...

    Trump's latest big idea is to use a microwave (oven) as a kinetic defense, launched by a steam catapult.

    1. BoHu
      Go

      Re: Microwaves

      Yes. That'll right provide the effectivest of air covers in the most unexpected of ways imho! And for the ground assault, battalions of marching Mayor McCheeses under expert tactical guidancery of Officer Big Mac, stealthily introduced to the menus of local bazaars via plans cunningly swiped by skilled Hamburglers ...

      If that doesn't right clog enemy arteries shut in no time flat, I don't know what will! Best to check if they want fries with that though (plus mayo!) ... ;)

    2. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: Microwaves

      "Trump's latest big idea is to use a microwave (oven) as a kinetic defense, launched by a steam catapult."

      Well, they are free. The last time I was at the ewaste facility, there were stacks of them. Using those leaves more money for bribes out of the defense (War) budget.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    5 million?

    I don’t think that’ll buy an advanced military laser.

    Maybe they should check on Alibaba?

    1. Like a badger Silver badge

      Re: 5 million?

      Horrifying that there's been a major war being fought with drones for five years, and only now do our MoD get off their fat backsides and wonder whether it might be a good idea to have some drone-swarm defences. And then there's the fact that there's only £5m available here, yet earlier this year our government chose to spend £300m on theme park tickets for kids (and associated self-congratulatory radio-ads).

      1. retiredFool Silver badge

        Re: 5 million?

        At least it wasn't for the supreme leader. Dumpie' is spending billions on his ballroom, and his arch. Heck I think he dropped more than 10m on his reflecting pool that disassembled itself with water.

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: 5 million?

          In WWII the British strategy of dropping Airfix models of ever more ludicrous giant tanks and impossible aircraft on the Führer Bünker is what led the Germans to waste so many resources and damage their war effort

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: 5 million?

            You can only do that if you also have some real tanks.

            I’m all for smart solutions…. But they are explicitly requesting something that Ukraine would pay 1000x for if it was technically possible.

        2. that one in the corner Silver badge

          Re: 5 million?

          > Dumpie' is spending billions on his ballroom, and his arch

          The ballroom is supposed to have lots of drones in its ceiling (presumably hanging upside down from the chandeliers like bats), so you can see how that will be worth the money. /s

          As for the other, fingers crossed that Judge Tanya Chutkan will succeed as Trumphal Arch-nemesis.

      2. jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid Silver badge

        Re: 5 million?

        "and only now do our MoD get off their fat backsides..."

        This is not the only counter drone (CUAS) activity being done, now or at any point in the last few years. The article itself even refers to other CUAS work done a few years ago. And as you can imagine, lots happens that isn't reported accurately or even at all.

        With the quickest of Google searches, I can find that DASA (now called UKDI but essentially the same organisation and part of MOD behind this latest call) were asking publically for CUAS ideas back in 2019. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/countering-drones-finding-and-neutralising-small-uas-threats

        Reading the competition document, it clearly isn't a first request for early ideas and it doesn't take much reading between the lines to see that it's about taking existing technologies (likely already quite mature) and adapting them to meet some specific requirements.

        1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

          Re: 5 million?

          Quick reminder of Rapid Sentry. It's a drone detection system (radar, electro-optical and sonic), strapped to a launcher for the Martlet and Starstreak missiles along with anti-drone electronic warfare.

          This didn't even publicly exist until it was actually deployed to defend bits of the Middle East and Cyprus from Iranian drone and cruise missile attacks.

          To be fair, it's mostly a combination of existing technologies the forces were already using - so I imagine it's the weapon part of the project to replace Stormer. It's also possible it's been deployed and tested in Ukraine - who've already had large numbers of our old Stormers plus thousands of Martlet and Starstreak.

          The army trialled a microwave weapon last year, that zapped several hundred drones out of the sky in one go, but I'm not sure how healthy that level of power is for the guys' own electronics - let alone the troops themselves.

          There was video and an interview with a Finnish army guy who's a champion clay pigeon shooter a few years ago. They set him up with a shotgun, and flew loads of drones at him, and he had a pretty good hit rate. Could we clone him? Or just conscript the Commonwealth and Olympic teams? Every tank gets and Olympic-level marksman with a belt-fed shotgun - I'm sure he'll be fine, standing on the top of the turret during an artillery barrage...

      3. elsergiovolador Silver badge

        Re: 5 million?

        £5m won't even pay for drafting the specification.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: 5 million?

        Not really. Why would anyone attack or invade us? We don't actually have anything worth taking plus we are an island nation with nuclear subs. We have the North Sea oil fields but they are split between us and Norway who didn't squander them away. I suppose we have coal which could be useful for parents of children that still believe in Santa. We also don't even have gold reserves as that was all sold off. We don't even have that much fish left. Cods right down and can I get tinned pilchards? Nope, not for months. If there was in index of nations worth conquering we would be right near the bottom.

        The fact is that the only fear of others attacking us comes from us attacking them first.

        In the future things might be different due to our geographical location and climate change but that's a way off yet.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: 5 million?

          At last! A brexit benefit!

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: 5 million?

          By "squander" do you mean refine into petrol and put in cars? I'm pretty sure that's exactly what you did with it.

          1. karlssberg

            Re: 5 million?

            I think he's on about this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway

            Unlike Norway, the UK let the oil companies keep all the profits, and the additional tax revenue from oil was used to give boomers tax cuts in return for votes

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: 5 million?

          "Why would anyone attack or invade us?"

          They won't, the chinese will buy the uk when we run out of money.

          1. retiredFool Silver badge

            Re: 5 million?

            Or repo it.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: 5 million?

            Too late, they already own it all so we will never be attacked now.

        4. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: 5 million?

          > Why would anyone attack or invade us?

          Argentina is getting shouty again...

        5. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          can I get tinned pilchards?

          What has happened to Pilchards ?

          My dog wants to know.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: 5 million?

      You can get one by purchaing any used tattoo removal units from defunct medical offices, usually off of Ebay. You might need 3-phase power to run it.

  7. Will Godfrey Silver badge
    Boffin

    Actually...

    The design cost would be about £1M, but that would accrue another £4M in backhanders, and the build cost would be a further £30M

    Ukraine would manage to get hold of one, reverse engineer it and produce a much improved one for the equivalent of £600k.

  8. Alan Mackenzie

    What about civil aircraft and satellites?

    If you're firing high powered lasers into the sky, sooner or later you're going to down an aeroplane. Or even disable a satellite. Is this really a good idea?

    1. jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid Silver badge

      Re: What about civil aircraft and satellites?

      The probability of hitting a satellite is tiny, but your point still stands that there is no safe down range zone until the laser is sufficiently scattered or absorbed, which depends on the wavelength used.

      As xkcd pointed out: https://xkcd.com/1433/

    2. elsergiovolador Silver badge

      Re: What about civil aircraft and satellites?

      Or what if it hits a pigeon?

      1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

        Re: What about civil aircraft and satellites?

        You'll make Dick Dastardly very happy?

      2. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

        Re: What about civil aircraft and satellites?

        He shot my Speckled Jim! AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGG!!

    3. Excused Boots Silver badge

      Re: What about civil aircraft and satellites?

      See 'inverse square law’.

      1. jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid Silver badge

        Re: What about civil aircraft and satellites?

        "See 'inverse square law’."

        That's not how lasers propagate. Intensity doesn't follow the inverse square law. It drops linearly with distance as the beam diverges due to imperfect collimation. Over the sort of ranges we are talking about, the beam won't diverge very much, the biggest effect is likely to be atmospheric scattering and absorption, which depends on the wavelength used.

        And of course, any laser DEW is going to have a very small divergence in order to keep the intensity on target up.

        Radio waves do propagate according to the inverse square law, which is one reason why RF DEW has very short ranges.

        1. Excused Boots Silver badge

          Re: What about civil aircraft and satellites?

          True but over large distances the beam divergence does tend to follow the inverse square law. In practice if we are looking at engaging targets at one or two Km distances, then fine. But the question was potential danger to commercial aircraft or satellites. Satellites, absolutely fine, the beam will have attenuated enough to be negligible. Aircraft? Maybe, but the beam would have to track them for some significant time to burn through the skin.

          So yes, you are quite right over short distances*, but over much longer ones, then yes the inverse square law does start to apply.

          * for some definition of short distances

          1. retiredFool Silver badge

            Re: What about civil aircraft and satellites?

            Agree, but still a danger of blinding the pilot. A problem with the small laser pointers people play with.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: What about civil aircraft and satellites?

              That's been thought of, there are plans to use AI to fly passenger aircraft.

          2. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: What about civil aircraft and satellites?

            "Aircraft? Maybe, but the beam would have to track them for some significant time to burn through the skin."

            Random aircraft flying through an active war zone?

    4. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: What about civil aircraft and satellites?

      "If you're firing high powered lasers into the sky, sooner or later you're going to down an aeroplane. Or even disable a satellite. Is this really a good idea?"

      The amount of power it would take to disable a satellite from the surface of Earth would be massive overkill to swat a drone. Randall Munroe did a great "What If" about shining lasers at the moon to light it up.... it gets very absurd, very quickly (as is how his thought experiments generally wind up).

  9. Nifty

    So 2 years ago the MOD supposedly demonstrated the DragonFire prototype, designed to destroy fast-moving aerial targets like drones.

    "Accuracy: It can hit a tiny target the size of a one-pound coin from one kilometer away. Power: It uses a 50 kW beam made by combining many lasers together. Low Cost: Each shot costs roughly £10 in electricity, making it much cheaper than traditional missiles"

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/boost-for-armed-forces-as-new-laser-weapon-takes-down-high-speed-drones

    https://youtu.be/Vg2IuPKqvt4

    That was a static version, so surely a mobile version would simply be a continuing development of this technology?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      They should send a few of them to Ukraine. If they work…

      1. John F Jennings

        The likely will - wheter they do or not. Like Challengers.

    2. John F Jennings

      not so much - though some parts like targetting might be transferrable, a lot isnt. A 50 KW laser might draw 120KW per shot (per second), nevermind the power for ancilaries (targetting computer etc).

      120KW is quite a lot of power. A 200Kw Generator would be something that could fit on a lorry. Moving the laser, setting up, charging it and keeping the calibration of a multi-laser setup like dragonfly might not be possible for a dragonfly (a ship is bad enough). The proposal is a single laser @15KW - its more simple (no combination of multiple lasers) - so that might be possible. A COTS 50KW laser might even be possible - but not without the ability to operate in a high vibration/off road environment (and possibly enarmoured). Its certainly not 'portable', even at 15KW - a small truck would be fine - but the ultimate mortar magnet...

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        A 50KW laser doesn't necessarily draw 50KW if you don't know the pulse length or rep rate.

        You could fire a 50KW femtosecond pulse at 1Hz from a watch battery.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        > A 50 KW laser might draw 120KW per shot (per second),

        Your posts might make more sense if you understood the units. For a laser, try KJoules.

      3. MachDiamond Silver badge

        "A 200Kw Generator would be something that could fit on a lorry. "

        You could fit several. They aren't that big.

    3. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

      Nifty,

      Dragonfire lives on ships. First one is supposed to be deployed next year or 2028. It's already been tested at sea on a Type 23 (don't remember which one). It gets to use the extensive power generation and cooling services already built in to any ship that has a large radar and lots of computers. The computing power needed to make really effective modern radars or to do anti-submarine warfare is pretty heavy duty.

      I'm surprised we're not just going with remote controlled gun turrets. Sure ammo is finite, and heavy. But so are diesel generators. But, to be fair, what works against relatively large and slow Shahed and Geran drones, may not be the same as the solution to the much smaller FPV and bomber drones used at the front lines.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        I'm surprised we're not just going with remote controlled gun turrets.

        Autocannons are relatively cheap and simple to operate, you just need enough to provide enough top cover.

        1. herman Silver badge

          Re: I'm surprised we're not just going with remote controlled gun turrets.

          Modern AA autocanons are in production and are in use; they are just not sexy enough to be in the news. For some more details, see the web sites of Rheinmetall and Kongsberg for example.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    welcome to the 1960s

    They should have funded the one that AVCO was developing. I'm sure it would have been at least jeep-mouned after 50 years of continued development. When my dad was working on that project it took two 48 ft containers to hold the entire unit.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    If only Maplin hadn't gone bust...

    ...this was what that section at the back that nobody went to with all the DJ kit was born for.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: If only Maplin hadn't gone bust...

      Where do you think we got our counter-laser disco-ball technology ?

      1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge
        Coat

        Re: If only Maplin hadn't gone bust...

        Where do you think we got our counter-laser disco-ball technology ?

        Is that the technology for countering lasers, or the technology for countering disco balls?

        I thought silver platform boots were invented to the reflect the lasers, so they couldn't shoot your feet?

  12. MrAshleyMason

    A guy in China already made one... For mosquitoes

    Look up "Jim Wong Photon Matrix", take the design and supersize it.

    You're welcome.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: A guy in China already made one... For mosquitoes

      "Jim Wong Photon Matrix"

      I hope that's his name on his passport. Absolute badass name. Sounds like a character from an 80s action flick.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: A guy in China already made one... For mosquitoes

        It means Japanese Sword.

  13. greg 8

    Not to be too technical, anybody ever heard about those things called...

    mirrors ?

    1. jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid Silver badge

      "Not to be too technical, anybody ever heard about those things called...

      mirrors ?"

      Good suggestion, but contrary to everyday experience, regular mirrors don't reflect enough light to be a viable defence, enough laser energy would still be absorbed to cause damage. Even if you could coat all the external surfaces with 100% reflective mirrors, any atmospheric dirt, dust or moisture would scupper that.

      One big challenge in building high power laser DEW systems like dragonfire is making the optics transparent/reflective enough so that it doesn't fry itself.

  14. TrickyRicky

    Wrong acronym

    Of course these weapons should be known as CREWS (coherent radiation emission weapons systems).

    RIP Iain M Banks

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Royal Navy ships?

    Do they still have some of those?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Royal Navy ships?

      The old grey marine, ain’t what she used to be…

  16. Mythical Ham-Lunch

    Google tells me a .50 calibre bullet is accurate to 1,500 yards, which is also a distance "beyond 1 km." If the precision tracking and aiming already works (which it appears to, and the hard part is powering the laser), why not just shoot them with good old fashioned ammo?

    1. jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid Silver badge

      In some cases that is a viable defence and the British Army do indeed train for shooting drones with shotguns. See here: https://www.forcesnews.com/services/army/shotgun-shoot-down-1-rifles-soldiers-train-take-out-drones

      But no one solution meets all requirements and that article includes a comment about this being the last line of defence.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "British Army do indeed train for shooting drones with shotguns"

        The 102nd airborne Elmer Fudd division.

        1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

          Shhh. Wussian dwones all look like wabbits!

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Be vewy vewy quiet.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Ammo is costly and can run out. It's easier and cheaper to have sn energy weapon. Also less risk of stray shots hitting bystanders.

      1. ShadowDragon8685

        Machine gun ammunition is cheap as chips in a military budget, and it's a lot more portable than electricity. It is not "easier and cheaper" to have an energy weapon, not even remotely.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Any grunt knows how to use it.

          1. ShadowDragon8685

            Eh... Not really. There's going to be a wide gulf between operating what amounts to a light SPAAG and operating a rifle.

            Even actual rifle-based manual anti-aircraft shooting generally required specifically trained skills - Doris Miller notwithstanding, the hero that he was.

    3. MachDiamond Silver badge

      "why not just shoot them with good old fashioned ammo?"

      Cost and weight.

      Ever look up what 50 cal ammo costs (I expect you meant 50 cal and not .50 cal)? It doesn't take long to whip through $5k on auto. CIWS (R2D2) would work, also very expensive. There would also be massive amounts of DU downrange as well.

      1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

        Cost and weight.

        Ever look up what 50 cal ammo costs (I expect you meant 50 cal and not .50 cal)? It doesn't take long to whip through $5k on auto.

        It's .50! Give or take arguments about whether calibre is correct, especially if cloud punchers are involved. But weight is certainly an issue. Ian from Forgotten Weapons showed a dual mount .50 being auctioned, which was man-powered. Quad mounts were also used, but needed electrical power for the mount, which then gets into complexity for truck or IFV usage. Cost is also less of an issue, ie we've poured well north of $200bn into this conflict already, so another billion for belts of 12.7mm is chump change. Bigger problem might be the number of factories in the West that can churn out that ammunition, as well as all the other calibres being used in great quantities.

        There would also be massive amounts of DU downrange as well.

        There shouldn't be any DU needed given that's really for armour piercing. Then again, some auto-cannons and other vehicle systems have dual feed or quick change systems so ammunition type can be changed, if the vehicle comes across a !drone. Which might also include UGV drones, which are also being extensively used and could be an armoured trundlebot carrying a bomb, machine gun or rockets. . Which is probably another reason why a gun system would provide more flexibility & offensive/defensive capability, even if it isn't as sexy.

        And. also why a little something in the >12.7mm range could be the most useful, given the bullet is large enough to do some 'smarts' like timed or proximity fusing. Or fragmenting, as that would give more chances to kill a drone than relying on cheap'ol ball ammo. But then also increases cost and space for that ammo. Personally, I think a system with smart sights that could detect & lead a drone on a fast mount and a burst-fire gun would be the simplest solution.. So kinda circling back to things like the Gepard, which was previously obsoleted because the threat of the day & solution was missiles. Most of the work needed has already been done after all.

        1. MachDiamond Silver badge

          "There shouldn't be any DU needed given that's really for armour piercing. "

          I expect the ammo for the CIWS only comes in one flavor and armor piercing would be preferred.

    4. herman Silver badge

      What goes up, usually comes down. Shooting into the air can be a bad day for anyone else around.

      1. MachDiamond Silver badge

        "Shooting into the air can be a bad day for anyone else around."

        Not really:

        <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDB838Vi6hw>

  17. Newold

    Iron Beam or Lite Beam

    Israel started deploying it's "almost" functional Iron Beam System to defend against mortar & artillery rounds, UAVs and rockets at distances between hundreds of meters and 10 km. It uses a 100 kW Faserlaser (or fiber laser?). I doubt the UK would adopt it (for politcal reasons), but maybe it's worth a (closer) look, I mean instead of engineering something from scratch, it would be faster and cheaper to use something (almost) combat-ready. The mobile variant is "Lite Beam" which uses a 10 kW Laser at distances up to 2000m.

  18. Groo The Wanderer - A Canuck Silver badge

    "Very good, Sir. Would you like the lasers with or without sharks?"

  19. David Pearce

    These small drones fly low, so expect a lot of blinded people as collateral damage. Blinding weapons are banned by UN treaty

  20. ShadowDragon8685

    Every "fancy new" solution to drone saturation attacks makes me despair. The ideal countermeasure to drone saturation attacks already exists. It's called the Oerlikon 35 mm autocannon, mounted in some kind of twin- or quad-mount, with a radar-guided gunnery scheme and copious supply of ammunition. Yes, it means you need to pay per-round fired, but it's an autocannon. You'll still be more cost-efficient than the other guy's drones.

    You can supplement this system with an even cheaper system that can be either radar- or human-guided (preferably radar), that can be pushed further afield than the autocannon system to engage first, based off a little-known, obscure system called the Browning M2 Machine Gun. In dual- or quad-mounts, it will absolutely SHRED drones that very closely conform to the size and performance of manned aircraft circa 1925. Is that still too heavy a boolet for you? Then try a similar system based on the Browning .30 Caliber, or -

    You get the idea. Drone swarms are basically a swarm of early interwar aircraft kamikazes. We don't need NEW solutions to them, because we have VERY effective solutions to them in our warfighting histories. So effective, in fact, that people stopped sending up swarms of "cost-effective" aircraft because they just all got shot down and that wasn't very cost-effective because the job didn't get done at all, and so they started engineering extremely expensive aircraft that could fly higher and faster than these gun systems could shoot them down from. This, in turn, necessitated the invention of extremely expensive interception systems (missiles) that COULD shoot down those aircraft or other missiles.

    We are effectively in a situation in which massive swarms of Hawker Furies in kamikaze conversion are being used to 'cover' for the F-35 screaming in to ruin your day after you've shot all your extremely expensive missiles at the biplanes. Instead of going "well, hell, dust off the Bofors guns!," the MOD is pumping money into a weapon that'll be here at the same time as commercial fusion reactors. They've been "only twenty years off" for the last sixty years, after all, they must be ready to start splitting atoms and generating power any day now, right?!

    1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

      While I think there should be a role for cannon in modern NATO militaries, which is happening by the way, you might want to consider that you don't have the full picture, and things may just be a teensy bit more complex than you realise.

      Take, for example the war in Ukraine. Russia and Ukraine both started the war with massive anti-air warfare equipment parks. Including large numbers of hand fired and radar guided AA cannons. Ukraine has been using these extremely effectively against Shahed and Geran (Russian upgraded versions) attack drones. But these are quite large.

      Neither Russia, nor Ukraine, have managed to clear any significant areas of their front lines using these guns.

      Ergo, it's distinctly possible that this may not actually be the solution you think it is. Possibly you're right, and it's just that both Russia and Ukraine (plus Ukraine's various helpers) have merely failed to do it over the last 4 years) - but you need to consider that the MOD know more about this than you do. As they are getting direct information from Ukraine.

      As with any complex military problem, the answer is most likely to be multi-layered. A combination of new weapons, re-purposed old ones, and new tactics. It should also be pointed out that the Japanese were having a lot of success with Kamikaze attacks, right up until the end of the war. And that the allied solution was to have insane numbers of ships - such that they could afford to have large numbers of them off for regular repairs. The human cost in pilots was horrific, but Japan had a whole suite of other suicide weapons to use in case of an Allied invasion, which is one of the reasons that nuclear weapons were used instead.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "insane numbers of ships"

        I never cease to be amazed at the amount of AAA those ships carried and the sheer amount of controlled fire that was sent up is still awesome to watch. With modern fire control systems they should be even more effective.

      2. ShadowDragon8685

        And lasers are supposed to be the answer? What can a laser do that more guns cannot, that's the question to ask.

        Is it more portable? Well, no - yes, heavy autocannons do require VERY HEAVY wheeled or even moderate tracked vehicles to transport, but a laser system is going to require jaw-dropping quantities of electric energy, or chemical ammunition, or both. Those will be hard to transport, too.

        Can a laser kill something it doesn't have line of sight to? Definitionally it cannot. In theoretical principle an autocannon can, but for all practical purposes it cannot.

        Can a laser kill a drone faster than autocannon rounds can? Nnnot really. Autocannons DO have shell travel time to consider, there's the possibility of missed shots, etc; but the laser has to hold itself on the target and 'cook' for a bit. Autocannon shells can also be made into radar-guided bursting charges that take 'shooting down the planes' from a chance in hell, to the IJN wondering how in the hell their planes kept getting shot down!

        What does a laser bring besides wanking "The Future" that an autocannon does not?

        Well, it doesn't require hard ammunition, if it's not a chemical laser, I'll give it that. Does that make it more suitable for permanent emplacement? Yes.

        But permanently emplacing anything is a great way to get it targeted and taken out. If you're moving the guns around all the time, even if it's only a few dozen meters to a new fighting position, that gets a lot harder. Sure, you can build out heavy electrical connections to a lot of places.

        But let's look at another problem: the electrical grid is unreliable when you're under fire. Ammunition that you have stored in the back of a truck, barring the truck being blown up, isn't going anywhere except to the enemy. Ammunition manufactured in Britain, in Germany, in the United States (when we've extracted our heads from the Tangerine Palpatine's ass), in France and Poland, in frickin' Australia, can go to Ukraine and be shot at Russian drones, or helicopters, or planes, or in a pinch their infantry!

        Electricity generated in Europe can still theoretically get to Ukraine, but unless there's an unbroken main power trunk between the power plant and the laser at the EXACT MOMENT it needs to start amplifying light, it's not firing. If the road connections between Poland and Ukraine get cut off, Polish ammo that's already in Ukraine can still be shot off. Ammo that was going to move by those roads can be rerouted and arrived delayed; if the electricity isn't connected at the exact moment you need it, you don't have it ever.

        What does spending buckoobubux R&D'ing a technology that has only ever proven to be "workable" (in scare quotes) at large scales, at such ruinous expense that the Soviet Union and United States only ever bothered building a handful, bring to the table, over investing that money in designing an SPAAG for the 21st century? Something with newer, faster, more sensitive radars that can pick out drones flying low and slow, with lightning-fast turret rotation and semi-automatic operation?

        Over developing a LIGHT SPAAG, based on the Browning M2, a module you can put on the back of an IFV, a truck, an armored car or "recon vehicle," and push out further than the bigger autocannon to act as the first line/tripwire?

        You're right, in that the solution will have to be multilayered, and I never disputed that. In fact,I've been saying it. Those expensive, $500,000 interceptors STILL NEED TO EXIST, because the other guy WILL have $25,000,000 warplanes and hypersonic cruise missiles that will laugh at your SPAAGs. But SPAAGs are proven effective against the threat model that drones represent; yes, the Japanese kamikazes WERE effective when they were introduced as a desperation measure. They were also shot down in great numbers before accomplishing jack, and that was with 1945's radar-guided gunnery. 1965's radar-guided AA would have swept them from the skies. 2026's radar-guided gunnery should be even better.

    2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

      Every "fancy new" solution to drone saturation attacks makes me despair. The ideal countermeasure to drone saturation attacks already exists. It's called the Oerlikon 35 mm autocannon, mounted in some kind of twin- or quad-mount, with a radar-guided gunnery scheme and copious supply of ammunition. Yes, it means you need to pay per-round fired, but it's an autocannon. You'll still be more cost-efficient than the other guy's drones.

      Technofetishm ftw! Plus the ability to create backronyms for an AI SHARK solution and extract lots of money from the EU slush fund(s). But such systems exist, and ISTR there were issues with getting 35mm ammunition from the Swiss. But Russia has their Pantsir system that combines guns, missiles & detection, with the original being mounted on a tracked vehicle, then making a cheaper truck mounted version. Which is also an interesting Ukraine challenge, ie performance of tracked vs wheeled vehicles, especially as Ukraine's heading into it's muddy season. But 35mm autocannon + ammo + sensors might mean a heavy system, which could still be useful for defending towns & cities, but perhaps less useful for convoy defence.

      That's both a ship and land issue, ie lasers & guns could be great for self-defence, but less great for protecting say, ships trying to transit the Strait of Hormuz where the ship might be a few kilometres away.. Which is why we ended up using missiles because they've got a longer range. Downside being drone & missile swarms and being able to launch enough missiles to deal with those.. Especially when attack drones & missiles are both getting faster. Which is also a problem for defensive drones, ie light the blue touch paper on a missile, or whack the primer on a 35mm and things happen much faster than a prop-driven drone can manage.

      But back to vehicles & convoy protection.. Ukraine had some success with using drones against vehicles using the 'land bridge' to Crimea. Russia countered that by stringing more anti-drone nets, and just using technicals with machine gunners. There's video from both sides also showing soldiers using shotguns and rifles to hit drones, so could be training to lead targets so that's more effective. Plus dealing with tinnitus so soldiers can actually hear the whine of an incoming drone.

      Which I think is also where innovation comes in. That happened with developing and fitting sights to machine guns and cannons so they were more effective for anti-air. The US has a 'smart' sight for their new rifle that can mark targets, so whether something like that could be developed as an aim-assist. Then like you say, make a dual M2 truck mount with that, a gunner and plenty of ammunition. Probably quicker, easier and more reliable than trying to automate everything, even if that solution would have less marketing appeal than a fully 'AI' solution.

      1. ShadowDragon8685

        Forcing open straits is a whole 'nother issue, honestly. Warships fitted with appropriate close-in weapon-systems; Gattling CIWS, Goalkeeper, some other kind of radar-guided, automatic autocannon system, in sufficient coverage, should have little difficulty protecting themselves from drones. The key there is "in sufficient quantity." The existing AA schemes on warships is based around a threat model of one or two extremely-expensive missiles coming flying in at screaming-fast speeds, NOT repelling a saturation attack.

        Frankly, USS New Jersey in her postwar configuration would be able to sail up and down the Hormuz Straight and more or less own everything within range of her guns, because a Shahed swarm is effectively a swarm of Kamikazes but flying 1931 planes rather than 1945 planes. Even if one or two get through, it wouldn't do meaningful amounts of damage to a battleship, whereas modern ships are designed to win or die with no in-between for taking hits and fighting on.

        But that's not the same thing as being able to force open the straight, because cargo ships would obviously NOT have a sufficient radar-guided anti-aircraft gunnery scheme to repel attacks upon them, and frankly it would be nigh unto impossible to put enough escort-destroyers together to actually escort ships through the straight at every hour, day or night, back to prewar transit levels. It would be ridiculous. It would be a navigational hazard. It would require insane amounts of manpower and reserve ships to cope with the ones that take damage, to relieve them to rearm, resupply and conduct the usual repairs a ship needs after sailing in a combat mission, notwithstanding actual combat damage. Nor, of course, the fuel requirements, unless we're going to go ahead and make nuclear-powered escort destroyers, which is an absolutely mental concept.

    3. herman Silver badge

      The 35 mm Oerlikon/Contraves guns are now manufactured by Rheinmetall and there are also simular AA systems made by Kongsberg and others. These guns are indeed used against larger UAVs with modern radar, with great success. However, cities are large and to defend all cities in a country, you need thousands of these systems.

      Furthermore, what goes up, usually comes down and while the 35 mm rounds selfdestruct after 10 km, the pieces can still be lethal to people on the ground. The .5 calibre gun systems mentioned do not self destruct and you really don't want to be hit by one if you happen to be several km forward of the gun.

      1. ShadowDragon8685

        Yes, you DO need thousands of gun systems. Which is why it's best to be building gun systems, rather than betting on a technology that has always "shown great promise" but has also always been "about ten years away from being mature technology." Weaponized lasers have been that for about 40 years now.

        You would not require fewer lasers, either. The effective range of a 35mm autocannon is actually comparable to or greater than that of a laser being proposed for the AA role - and this is notwithstanding that lasers will find it very difficult to impossible to operate effectively in fog or smoke - radar-guided gunnery doesn't care about those. Doesn't care much about rain or snow, either, both of which will to some extent (though less than dense fog and smoke) hinder lasers.

  21. herman Silver badge

    Darkness is upon us

    It will be a dark day when their lasers run out of light.

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