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British energy company SSE Energy Supply refused to believe that there was no unit 8b at the property of Lyle Hopkins, a doctoral student at the University of Oxford. For more than 20 months, the company billed Hopkins at business rates, a total of £1,091.01, for an unused electricity meter on the property that had been …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Sounds like he has everything he needs to take it back to court as harassment seeking further compensation and damages (to cover completion of his doctorate).

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I had no credit record when I started university and therefore had difficulty getting services as I didn’t when I started there have a job either. So very kindly my mum and dad said they’d have their names on the gas, leccy and phone, which I’d pay them back for. Anyway finished my degree and cancelled all three services before leaving the house there to another hopefully lucky student. I gave meter readings for the gas and electric (took photos too) and dad paid off the remaining balance on each.

      Then a letter appeared from the gas board saying that the reading was correct but that it had advanced into the next digit since I took it. We had therefore been issued a bill for 24p which had taken an age to arrive. When it did we looked at it in disbelief as the cost of the postage was for that amount. Assuming this was issued in error we were stunned the next day when another more threatening letter arrived telling us to pay up as the consequences of non payment were too horrific to describe. So dad told me to phone them up and explain that it ws silly them chasing this any further. tell them we were prepared to take this to the courts.

      The lady who answered the phone listened very patiently whils I explained that we had paid what we owed. Whilst she was looking up the account I said my dad had told me we’d be happy to go to court to settle this. Once she saw that they’d already spend double the debt trying to recover £0.24 she laughed out loud and said she would cancel it immediately and we wouldn’t be bothered anymore. She was very nice and apologised for the automated letters which should have a cut off for debts under the cost of a letter.

      1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge

        I had no credit record when I started university...

        I've mentioned this before - I heard Victor Kiam of the Remington company ("I liked the shaver so much I bought the company.") on a radio phone in - his advice to a young person was to start working on a credit history as soon as he was able to save a bit of money (like a part time job), and, then when he was able to apply for a loan, apply for an amount he can pay back/may already have the funds saved -do the repayments on time. The cost of the credit/interest is the cost of getting that credit history - then, when he really needs the credit, he'll get a better deal due to the credit history

        1. doublelayer Silver badge

          In more modern times, there's a somewhat easier way to do that by getting a credit card, using it, and not using the credit part I.E. always pay the total balance. It's less expensive than paying interest on a loan you don't need but also builds the history of payments that people are looking for. Depending on how long you expect to have between the ability to start doing that and your first interest in getting a needed loan, the credit card only approach might be a bit slower, but you could always do both if you think it is very important.

        2. JimboSmith

          I went into the bank decades ago whilst still living at home, to sign up for a credit card. I just popped in before they closed to get a form but I couldn’t see any. So I enquired at one of the cashiers desks and after checking my account, she made a call. So far so ominous, when the bank manager appeared and took me into the meeting room which made me even more nervous. I really wasn’t expecting anything like this and he asked if I wanted a tea/coffee/water. I was in my first job after leaving school and being paid what at the time was a good salary. He sat down and said that after reviewing my account it was obvious that I had a good history with the bank. I’d never been overdrawn but also I’d never had any credit either which was concerning him. So he said opening a credit card was the sensible thing to do, “you need a good credit history, or we might not lend you any money”! At the same time he’d switch me to a gold packaged account with a gold coloured debit card. I didn’t know that I wanted that as it had a monthly fee attached and said so. He told me that with the amount my account normally had in it I would never pay the monthly fee - and I haven’t. He also had me fill out the form for the credit card (also a gold one in both name and colour) whilst sitting there. He set it up so that the full balance was paid off every month automatically via direct debit. When I’d signed the form I noticed it was now almost 6pm and the bank had been closed for at least half an hour. He said I shouldn’t worry about that, he was the boss and how long he stayed with a client was up to him. I’ve claimed on the packaged travel insurance too which was paid without fuss. He could not have been nicer and I have stuck with the same bank ever since.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Bank Awesomeness

            Your bank is awesome.

            I won't ask its name, as it will inevitably been taken over by an asshole-mode bank before I or any other Regtards can open an account with them.

            My mum had found a good bank; it was taken over by an asshole-mode bank. She moved to a different, nice, bank. It was taken over by the same ass-hole bank she'd moved away from.

            Repeat three times.

            All the banks in our area now all are asshole-mode banks.

            1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

              Re: Bank Awesomeness

              "Your bank is awesome."

              Taken over or not, it won't be any longer. The idea of having empowered counter staff, let alone managers (managers? think of the salaries) is anathema to them. They don't need to be othered about the crap service because none of the competition is any better. Some day someone will decide to compete on service but in the mean the search for the bottom of the barrel continues.

              1. Boris56789

                Re: Bank Awesomeness

                Tbh,

                Have banked with HSBC was Midland when I was opening. but would not bank with them again, had random call centre ring up and asked me to authenticate, yeah love that they don't have to, to me, got my details locked out by the half wits as I was out at the time, rang the official number back and they confirmed they had rung, no appology and oh yeah had the cheek to asked for random hundred figure as like most post uni using my overdraft to live - bad idea I know, they were like have you got 450 to reduce the overdraft, I was like well no, as you know my finances and its not near pay day.

                After that, made the effort to pay off the overdraft and reduce it to zero and then they still pissed about closing the accounts down, moved to Nationwide and made sure to have zero chance of overdraft activation and have to say have had no issues with them, if you get issues its uk call centre and sort out issue there and then.

                Plus being a member get the money drop once a yr, when mortgage time comes they seem one of the sensible players and also keep their branches open when all else are closing.

                Total difference to HSBC, which seemed to spend its money on having random staff walking round with tablets board and automated till in branch and then just walked to a connected portal, so whats the point.

                I can see how they got caught up in moneylaundering seems to be do everything as cheap and pain in the arse as you can.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          My younger kid, having seen what a financial mess his older sibling got into, borrowing on credit cards etc with no way to repay flatly refused to get into debt. When he wanted to buy a car, not enough savings, no credit history, no loan. Yhats when I finally managed to get him to take a credit card and use it daily to buy his lunch or a beer (possibly the same thing!), pay off in full by monthly direct debit.

  2. Inventor of the Marmite Laser Silver badge

    For anyone in a similar position Ferguson v British Gas is a great starting point. I believe the settlement was substantial.

    This is also useful. It describes that case and lists the other actions which were cited.

    https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/5a8ff7aa60d03e7f57eb1025

    1. Herring`

      That was where my mind went. I thought "just cite that" and bollocks to the stochastic plagiarism machine. If I were in charge, I would change legislation to really discourage these big companies from being useless wankers. At the moment, the cost of having proper processes still outweighs the negligible fines.

  3. LessWileyCoyote

    Good for him for managing all that. On the other hand, seeing as it's a UK case, a small subscription to the Guardian news site and emailing their Consumer Champions column might achieve the same result a lot quicker. Big corps don't like having their stupidity shown up in public.

    1. alain williams Silver badge

      > Big corps don't like having their stupidity shown up in public.

      Which is why their offer was conditional on confidentiality and non-disparagement clauses.

      Such confidentiality clauses should be illegal when dealing with corporations. Apparently these are common in the media which is Sangita Myska cannot say why she was sacked from LBC.

      1. JimmyPage Silver badge
        Stop

        Which is why their offer was conditional on confidentiality and non-disparagement clauses.

        Except their "offer" was forced by the court ?

        Losers don't get to dictate terms, surely ?

        1. doublelayer Silver badge

          Re: Which is why their offer was conditional on confidentiality and non-disparagement clauses.

          Read the article. They offered more money before the case, and that was conditional. He refused their offer and got a smaller judgement but with no conditions.

    2. katrinab Silver badge

      Or the Telegraph, or even the Daily Mail. I don't necessarily agree with everything or indeed most things in there, but their consumer rights columns are good.

  4. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    About that image:

    UK judges don't use gavels. They leave that to auctioneers.

    1. Bebu sa Ware Silver badge
      Coat

      Re: About that image:

      > UK judges don't use gavels. They leave that to auctioneers.

      But US ones do I believe but as has been said before — the best justice system money can buy (to the highest bidder of course.)

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: About that image:

        Surely nothing I wrote could have given that impression...

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    GPT currently being very useful in me taking an arsehole builder to small claims. Yes you need to be careful it's not not making shit up but for analysing documents and digging up caselaw it's invaluable to the layperson. If nothing else it stops your arsehole building hiding behind his arsehole lawer's legalese threats.

    Got wonder if these tools have a Robocop-like Directive 4 in there.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      It’s pretty good to at reading Tems and Conditions, so you don’t have to. It was useful to a friend of mine in proving that Glasgow Airport don’t control the parking at the BP Petrol Station on site, as they didn’t understand the airport bylaws they were trying to enforce regarding using it as a drop-off location.

  6. gryphon

    I don't see anything in the article to say that SSE had actually paid what they were now owe him.

    'Hopefully' they forget to pay so he can get a high court order for bailiffs to attend their head office and seize stuff.

    Or apply for a winding up order.

    I seem to recall that this has happened a few times for relatively minor amounts, probably the high court order rather than winding up order.

    1. Richard 12 Silver badge

      They're still harassing him

      Which means it's now explicitly harrassment, and possibly also contempt as the court explicitly ordered them to pay up and leave him alone.

      Check your household contents insurance, it often covers this kind of legal advice - especially as it's now a slam-dunk case.

    2. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge
      Happy

      Thats been done to an SSE office near me, they were taken to court by a sub contractor, didnt bother turning up, judge gave a default judgement, and the sub-contractor sent the bailiffs after 30 days of non-payment.

      They paid up sharpish when the bailiffs told them they had 15 minutes to clear everyone out of the building before they locked the doors and began seizing goods

  7. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge

    Energy biz SSE smacked around in court

    Oh dear, how sad. Never mind

    As Sgt. Major Williams would say.

  8. PCScreenOnly Silver badge

    Same with TV license

    Keep on getting letters and debt collector letters for my address with the suffix A

    It existed about 7 years ago, the annex was converted back to the main house about 6 years ago and we bought it 5 years ago

    I really really want to be here if they ever send anyone.

    I've even told them to stop being tight arse bastards and to buy an upto date post code database (I can tell who does and who doesn't)

    1. David 132 Silver badge

      Re: Same with TV license

      Similar for me when I lived in the UK; I regularly received letters from TV Licencing regarding my lack of a licence, addressed to my house but with the last letter of the postcode changed (eg AB1 2CX rather than 2CD). These would even arrive on occasion in the same day's post as my perfectly legitimate TV licence which was addressed to the correct postcode. The letters would cycle through the same loop of tone over and over; friendly reminder would be followed by stern reminder, would be followed by veiled threats, then direct threats of enforcement action. I ignored them all, as TVL had ignored my repeated attempts to alert them to the error in their database. Screw 'em.

    2. John Sager

      Re: Same with TV license

      Yes, I chased Crapita for similar reasons years ago on behalf of my mother-in-law. I even got her MP involved. They only stopped for a while. She had her licence registered under an address that was slightly different to the one on the PAF. There must be lots of address aliases around but they can't or won't cope with that.

  9. Tron Silver badge

    You don't get much help from official 'regulators' of utilities in the UK.

    An easier solution may have been the small claims court. No solicitor, AI or case law should have been required.

    Don't expect AI to lead to a revolution with ordinary folk hammering corporations. As corporations use more AI and fewer people, it will become even tougher to sort out issues, especially complicated ones.

    In general, it is best to avoid the law in the UK if you possibly can. It is often eye-wateringly expensive and it will eat your time. Most Brits simply don't have the cash to use the courts. It's not like the US.

    And the legal system here has had a lot of problems with their IT.

    https://ifs.org.uk/articles/will-digital-failure-undermine-trust-justice-system

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: You don't get much help from official 'regulators' of utilities in the UK.

      Indeed as per a previous comment about taking builder to small claims the majority of residents paid for legal advice to deal with same builder during construction. Unanimously the advice given (at £200-£300 an hour) was "Don't bother".

      1 - It'll cost you £20k in legal fees to chase damages of £20k so unless you're going all in for £100k+ it's not worth it

      2 - Even if you win he'll just phoenix the business all all you'll get is the legal bill.

      Small claims is the only option left as it's low risk to us with legal expenses generally not recoverable by either party.

      But it's worse in Scotland as the small claims (simple process) limit is only £5k, in England it's been upped to £10k. £5k covers sod all these days.

      1. Rogerborg 2.0

        Re: You don't get much help from official 'regulators' of utilities in the UK.

        And has been capped at £5,000 since 2002 ("summary cause", now "simple procedure"). The Scotch Cooncil has never raised it. It's almost like whatever legal parasites are advising them don't WANT the wee fowk to be able to DIY it without paying through the nose.

  10. Pete 2 Silver badge

    Contemptuous?

    > We apologise for any inconvenience caused

    Considering the judgement and the payment, I cannot see there is any doubt that inconvenience was caused and admitted by SSE.

    So to phrase their apology as if there might, or might not have been, inconvenience seems like an absurd attempt to spin.

    1. katrinab Silver badge

      Re: Contemptuous?

      That it went to court judgement suggests they didn't admit it, but they were found liable by the court, a bit like being found guilty, but it isn't a criminal case so they use different terminology.

  11. Blackjack Silver badge

    I keep getting bills for a person that died over 30 years ago at my home, for a propriety that's not where I live and I do not own. At least the bills are not at my name, and since the one time I went to complain they wanted me to sign something I just didn't, otherwise I risk the bills starting to be at my name for again, a house I don't live in or I own.

    1. JLV Silver badge
      Unhappy

      If only Kafka was still around… he’d have a field day with this material.

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      A colleague of mine used to get dunning letters from the previous owner of the house. He was one of the QCs we used to deal with regularly in court and a particularly obnoxious one. Colleague never quite succumbed to the temptation, when being cross-examine by him, to hand over some of the letters and say "Byt the way, these came for you.".

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Oops..

        s/from/for/

  12. DS999 Silver badge

    Isn't that always the way

    Once a member of the press starts digging around and asking for comments about a story they are preparing, it is amazing how often the footnote of the story is "the company did what they should have done all along".

    In the US, NBC's evening news runs these regular stories called "the cost of denial", which are about the US' broken health care system. People getting denied legit claims by their health insurance carrier and facing tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars in bills as a result. Pretty much every story ends with the person getting the denial reversed, because once NBC News calls the insurance company for comment on that denial they know they've been caught red handed and are forced to make good on their policy. But all the people who don't get NBC's attention probably continue to fight their battles alone, against insurance carriers who can wear them down or I suppose in some cases wait for them to die.

  13. Great Southern Land

    Not necessarily...

    >>>Yet even after Hopkins won, the billing continued. Following the judgement on July 17, another bill dated July 23 went out.

    It's not necessarily further harassment. The 23/7 bill was probably generated several days before the issue date, to allow time for printing, and sent out on the issue date. Once such correspondence is generated, it's usually too late to stop it, especially if an outside printing house is involved.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Not necessarily...

      If the penalty is severe enough it would be worthwhile ensuring it would have been intercepted one way or another. Reporting it to the court would have been a good idea, given the possibility of a contempt judgement.

  14. Rogerborg 2.0

    Based on my experiences with HMRC, telly tax, and utilities over the decades, my advice would be to do what a New Briton or a Cabinet Minister would do: reply to nothing, admit to nothing, document nothing. Ghost them completely.

    It's a real issue when a court date hits your mat, with your correct name and address on it. Only then is it worth your time dealing with it. Anything before that, up to and including tattooed thugs in branded hoodies or Temu tac-vests mis-representing themselves as "bailiffs", is just a fishing expedition to see if a soft target exists.

  15. Boris56789

    Have experience with EON and EDF screwing up a switch for my parents

    My parents in the naughties moved provider from EDF to EON, but back then didn't switch the tag on the property, so couldn't charge normally, they were told not to worry and it would get sorted.

    Yeah funny that 12 months later after multiple checks five grand bill dropped, they tried sorting out payment plans, but EON couldn't organise a piss up, even chasing on the day of my fathers funeral, you guess the response they got from me on that trick.

    In the end got all the bills spread out over a table and worked out the pound and pence, after depends for random thousands to my now widowed mother, it turned out 126.58 was all that was left, this was after multiple calls and trying to understand the position.

    In all honestly I told the call centre that it wasn't there fault, as just cogs in the wheel, but the company id not piss on them if they were on fire and especially the debt teams ringing on days of funeral.

    Plus not one appology or reduction due to their clear error, especially as my father was an ill man - id put a good chance the stress added to his death from a heart attack.

    These firms just act like organised cartels, thankfully firms live OVO and Octopus have come along, OVO just ended up as bad after swallowing one of the big six and ended up with the backward management of the firm they brought. Which might be SSE, as I had joys of them predicting usage for some random date over 12 or more in the future and just whacking up the DD, so sacked them off.

    Octopus seems to be the one sane and decent supplier around as been with them on and off and charging has been correct and pricing fair and decent customer service.

    So, understand the gents torture to get these arseholes to court.

    Good on him pulling their arses in and winning, but still showing even after the total incompetence when a judge has clearly told them to sling it, another bunch of arse holes trying to milk illegally anyone it can.

    Hopefully now the Reg and press is on this, they will magically work out how to cancel the bills, funny that.

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