Windows 10 refuses to die, and the security bill is coming due

A hard core of Windows 10 devices cannot or will not be migrated to Windows 11, leaving enterprises with a growing security problem as support options run out. According to asset tracking service Lansweeper, Windows 10 still runs on 16.9 percent of the Windows devices it monitors, or "roughly one in six." A year ago, the …

[Lon24]

Which 16.9%?

The report doesn't split the Win10 persistence issue between business and consumer. I suspect business is lower and consumer is higher. Important where the juicy attacks are on the former with potential seven figure ransoms. Corporate migration to Win11 is heavily driven by insurance policy conditions. A risk even the most reluctant C-Suiters recognise.

In the consumer market a segment only upgrades when the current device eventually fails to function. They would still be on XP if it would still work for them. I guess some still do ;-)

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Which 16.9%?

Corporates will have bulk deals. They will only be stopped by software incompatibility.

[NoneSuch]

Re: Which 16.9%?

I still have Win10 at home. It works just fine. I use it for games that refuse to run on Linux. Everything else is already converted over and Linux is now my daily driver.

MS Promised me Win 10 would be my last OS and I'm holding them to that.

Linux gaming has come a long way, to the point where the vast majority of single-player and indie titles either run natively or work flawlessly through Proton, but a few important hurdles still remain. The biggest is kernel-level anti-cheat and DRM, where some publishers still refuse to enable Linux support even though technologies like Easy Anti-Cheat and BattlEye can support it. Beyond that, there are occasional launchers that behave badly, a handful of games that rely on undocumented Windows APIs, and the inevitable day-one patches that briefly break compatibility until Proton catches up. Hardware support is now excellent for modern AMD and NVIDIA GPUs, controller support is mature, and Vulkan has eliminated many of the graphics issues that once plagued Linux gaming. At this point, Linux doesn't need a technical miracle to become a first-class gaming platform—it mostly needs publisher cooperation, especially on anti-cheat, and developers to treat Linux and Proton as supported targets rather than afterthoughts.

Games are the last anchor holding the user to Windows and MS knows it.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Which 16.9%?

"Games are the last anchor holding the user to Windows"

Only for gamers. Other users have other concerns. Those include the computer having been seen as a major purchase when it was bought (even if it was a fraction of what a game might may). The computer is seen as working for what it was bought for and there is no perceived need to upgrade nor to move to a different OS, even if the possibility is known.

Inertia, cost and lack of understanding will be bigger anchors than gaming.

[Caver_Dave]

Re: Which 16.9%?

Yes, my home computer was a major outlay. I bought the best I could with all the items like TPM that Microshite said that Windows 11 would require.

Only when I tried to upgrade my new PC to Windows 11 did I find out that they had decided to block the particular iCore-7 I had bought.

I will be upgrading to Linux (probably Mint) when I fid the time.

[Terry 6]

Re: Which 16.9%?

And being unable or unwilling to buy a PC that will support 11 but is no better for their uses case than the current Win 10 one they're using.There's something quite horrible about being told "Your shiny, lightly used PC has to be scrapped and replaced with another PC that offers you nothing more than the new version of Windows that's worse than the one you already have".

[LybsterRoy]

Re: Which 16.9%?

Don't forget that along side of the cost of a new PC there may be costs of new software. In my case it would have cost more to upgrade the software than buy the PC. I could have saved the money by switching to different software (eg Delphi -> Lazarus) but the "cost" of learning all the new stuff would have been high.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Which 16.9%?

"but the "cost" of learning all the new stuff would have been high."

The cost of not learning that is a monthly subscription to MS, forever. :P

[cmdrklarg]

Re: Which 16.9%?

My main is Win10 as well, and will stay that way until such time as I need to replace it or after ESU expires. I did appreciate it when MS added another year to that. I was also happy when I found a method to get the ESUs without having to use the steps that MS offered to sign up.

I setup my old main PC up with Linux Mint to see if I could make the switch, and I believe that I can make it work when the time comes. I don't play competitive games that require anti-cheat so that's not a concern.

[DS999]

Re: Which 16.9%?

Games are the last anchor holding the user to Windows and MS knows it

That's not true at all. Windows is what a typical consumer gets when they buy "a computer". You don't see PCs with Linux installed at your local big box seller, they are all Windows. You might be able to order PCs online with Linux instead of Windows, but most consumers don't even know what that is and wouldn't click on the box marked "operating system" because they don't know what that is and will figure it is safer to take the default.

The only exposure to non Windows PCs they get is a Mac. They may not have ever used one but they probably know friends who say they have a Mac and are happy with it, but they are kept away by not wanting to spend more money for something they don't see as making a difference in their life in the way a fridge with an icemaker or SUV with third row of seats would.

[Fido]

Re: Which 16.9%?

You might be able to order PCs online with Linux instead of Windows, but most consumers don't even know what that is and wouldn't click on the box marked "operating system" because they don't know what that is and will figure it is safer to take the default.

I ordered a Lenovo laptop on-sale with RedHat Fedora preinstalled because it was a cheaper. Cheaper might encourage people who otherwise wouldn't care to click.

[DS999]

Re: Which 16.9%?

Yes but 98% of those will take advantage of the free return period when they see it looks nothing like what they expect, ask a more computer knowledgeable friend or family member, and are told they shouldn't try to save money by clicking on something they don't understand.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Which 16.9%?

The market for a Fedora pre-install is more likely to be a developer rather than a consumer. For a daily driver for non-IT work as a long-time Unix user I prefer Devuan - Debian without AGent-P. For a consumer Zorin or Mint would be better.

[Terry 6]

Re: Which 16.9%?

Yep. I like Zorin, which is on my non-Windows laptops.

I want to do stuff with computers. Messing around with the OS (Linux) or fighting it (Windows) is just a waste of my time.

You want to use the CLI? Cool. enjoy.

Don't mind Microsoft continually spying and upselling? Knock yourself out.

[ChoHag]

Re: Which 16.9%?

> You don't see PCs with Linux installed at your local big box seller

I understand that they call them "chromebooks".

[deadlockvictim]

Re: Which 16.9%?

Well, as long as long as you are not online, it doesn't really matter how old/insecure your OS is.

[Peter Gathercole]

Re: Which 16.9%?

If it is not online, it's not appearing in the statistics!

If you were to count systems that have been deliberately air-gapped, the number of systems running previous versions of Windows would be higher.

[tiggity]

Re: Which 16.9%?

Depends how they get their statistics - do not trust it if it relies on user agent.

I change my user agent quite often (a Firefox user agent switcher extension makes it easy), as sometimes you need to blatantly lie (there are still some shoddy sights that automatically claim unsupported browser by user agent sniffing if you are not running a chrome derivative or "present" as a mac or iPhone). My OS in the spoofed user agent string is often something unrelated to my actual OS.

[DS999]

Re: Which 16.9%?

I doubt more than a low single digit percentage of people do that, so it won't affect the Windows 10/11 split. Even those with a user agent switcher won't use to masquerade their Windows 10 PC as Windows 11 or vice versa.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Which 16.9%?

"it doesn't really matter how old/insecure your OS is"

And this is the attitude of a lot of users irrespective of whether they're online or not. My SiL is typical. She recently swapped to a new W11 box, not because her OS was the old/insecure W7 but because the old H/W was about the most knackered laptop I've ever seen. Within days of getting the new one all sorts of scammy pop-ups appeared on the supposedly new, secure W11, not all of them from Microsoft.

[David Hicklin]

Re: Which 16.9%?

> MS Promised me Win 10 would be my last OS and I'm holding them to that.

Same here, I am typing away on Linux mint right now.

I still have programs that run best on Windows 7 (or simply don't support anything later or later versions are crap) and for those I have some VM's

Don't do PC games so that is not an issue.

I think that if you are careful, don't visit dubious sites and your browser is still supported* then there is little reason to move. I still think windows 7 was peak windows

* which is what finally forced me off 7 to 10 with Firefox/Thunderbird even if on a VM until Micro$lop decided that the licence it used was no longer valid, so it became Linux Mint.

[Blackjack]

Re: Which 16.9%?

Depending on what you call busines, small business have little reason to upgrade unless forced to.

[billdehaan]

Re: Which 16.9%?

I don't know any business that's running unpatched internet connected Windows 10 machines. The majority have migrated to Windows 11 already. A few places are running ESU, either for budgetary reasons or because they're in the process of migrating those processes away from Windows.

A lot of lab PCs in lab environments and the like were already air gapped away for security reasons anyway. Hell, some of those labs PCs are still running NT 3.1 and even OS/2 v2.1. Companies that are doing that already have processes in place for isolating obsolete machines.

The overwhelming Windows 10 user base is consumers. Not every consumer can financially afford to replace their functional machines simply because they don't have TPM 2.0. Yes, there are hack workarounds to install Windows 11, but nontechnical people lack the technical savvy to install, let alone maintain, hacked versions of Windows. That's assuming they are even if they were interested in doing so, which most aren't.

Add to that Windows 11's avalanche of bad press, with almost weekly catastrophes being reported, and a lot of Windows 10 users aren't interested in upgrading, even if their machines can.

I've shown a lot of people how to enroll in the ESU, but that expires eventually. There's also https://0patch.com/, which is better than nothing, but (a) isn't free, and (b) is questionable as to whether it's really able to properly address all security issues.

I've helped migrate a number of people to Linux, but that's not suitable for everyone. People who use their PCs for email, web browsing, and office tasks can usually migrate easily. But there are lots of people who run Windows software that doesn't run in Wine, or a VM, and it doesn't have equivalent Linux software.

I was surprised when some mundane (ie. notechnical) friends actually told me that they knew about the Windows 10 security problems, so they do all their banking on their phones now. I hadn't considered that, but it's possible that the security issues might be mitigated somewhat by the younger generation who use their phones as the primary interface to the net, and see the PC as essentially just as gaming machine that shows Netflix.

[Roland6]

Re: Which 16.9%?

>” I don't know any business that's running unpatched internet connected Windows 10 machines.”

I have come across unpatched laptops and workstations, with automatic updates enabled and controlled by the organisation.

The user had either simply kept pressing the “do later “ button, and/or shut the system down so it never ran during out-of-hours and so the scheduled update never happened. The system then got so far behind, the update to W11 took priority and so seemed to halt the W10 auto update process including the application of security fixes. I even had one system where because the version of W10 on it was so old it had gone out of support and hence required a manual upgrade to the supported version.

My partners work laptop W11 is currently not updating because it was setup with a Bios/firmware admin password, which she naturally doesn’t have and hence updates fail because the system isn’t running the correct version of the IMT etc.

Lesson: You need to actively manage your estate - whilst tools like Panda Cloud Security do provide reports and hence can make the problem more manageable, you do need to actually visit problematic machines and users and force a install updates reboot…

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Which 16.9%?

I know a company that runs windows 10 unpatched because they're setup to use an active directory update server but the domain no longer functions and the workstations have windows firewall disabled and they are internet connected

[williamyf]

Re: Which 16.9%?

«There's also https://0patch.com/, which is better than nothing, but (a) isn't free, and (b) is questionable as to whether it's really able to properly address all security issues.»

There is no question about that at all. 0patch themselves are very honest about it, and in their own FAQ they tell you that they can not patch certain stuff. But, you have to dig deep into the documentation, and they try to downplay it... but it is there:

https://support.0patch.com/hc/en-us/articles/360011047979-Can-you-micropatch-all-types-of-vulnerabilities

«Unfortunately not.[...] We currently cannot directly* micropatch:

Vulnerabilities in Windows kernel; this is due to the fact that Windows have an active self-defense mechanism for preventing kernel code modification called PatchGuard (formally named Kernel Patch Protection), which our micropatches would trigger and cause the computer to reboot. We believe PatchGuard adds negligible security value and there are known ways of disabling/bypassing it, but we have for now decided not to do that. It is possible that we'll revisit this decision in the future and advise users to disable PatchGuard (e.g., for end-of-support Windows 7 and Windows Server 2008 R2 servers with 0patch installed) in order to apply kernel micropatches, should these become necessary.

Vulnerabilities in .NET code; .NET applications are not compiled to native machine code but to managed code, which gets interpreted by .NET Framework's Common Language Runtime upon execution. We can, however, micropatch .NET Framework's native executables.

Vulnerabilities in Java code; while we can micropatch the Java Runtime Interpreter (e.g., java.exe), we can't micropatch Java applications (typically delivered as class files in a JAR archive) because they, too, are not in native machine code.

Vulnerabilities in scripted code; it would be relatively simple, technically, to modify scripted code in memory right before it got executed, but in contrast to binary files, which practically never get manually modified, scripted code is often modified by users or admins - and that makes it hard to identify a vulnerable version and pinpoint the vulnerability within. This is why we decided not to support micropatching of scripted code.

»

[williamyf]

Re: Which 16.9%?

«I was surprised when some mundane (ie. notechnical) friends actually told me that they knew about the Windows 10 security problems, so they do all their banking on their phones now. I hadn't considered that, but it's possible that the security issues might be mitigated somewhat by the younger generation who use their phones as the primary interface to the net, and see the PC as essentially just as gaming machine that shows Netflix.»

And then you realized, to your horror, that said phones were running Android 13

[williamyf]

Re: Which 16.9%?

Lansweeper is mostly an enterprise tool. So, their numbers are mostly for enterprises.

Starcounter was also mentioned, but that is a mixed bag.

What one deeds to do is not to look at individual numbers, but at the trend over a 4~6 month period, or even longer.

[LybsterRoy]

Re: Which 16.9%?

Not on XP but still on W7

[Anonymous Coward]

Computers than can run Windows 10 are still entirely serviceable.

Especially with the current price of new hardware…

I suspect Microsoft will be forced to continue support

[Jedit]

"Especially with the current price of new hardware…"

And the current quality of the new software. Windows 10 remains popular not just because it's familiar and requires no hardware upgrades; it's just better.

[jvf]

Re: "Especially with the current price of new hardware…"

Better-sort of. As in slightly less buggy and slightly more stable (most of the time).

[hx]

Re: "Especially with the current price of new hardware…"

And less integrated spyware, I mean telemetry *nod nod, wink wink*.

[Bebu sa Ware]

"I suspect Microsoft will be forced to continue support"

Or offer some sort of cut down Win11 "lite" that will run on lower spec'd hardware and without the crappilot etc.

Granted it's Microsoft so not particularly likely.

[Doctor Syntax]

"I suspect Microsoft will be forced to continue support"

"Forced" by being offered money.

[David 132]

And as another perceptive commentard pointed out elsewhere here earlier this week: offering ongoing security support for W10 in this way has the happy effect, from Microsoft's PoV, of normalising software subscriptions and getting consumers used to the idea of perpetual payments.

[Doctor Syntax]

"another perceptive commentard"

Thank you, but it wasn't another. It's a point I've been making for some time.

[David Hicklin]

And you don't run the risk of a borked machine following each patch Tuesday (as long as you are not on the ESU)

[elsergiovolador]

Way

The best way to show how you hate your employees is to upgrade to Windows 11 and roll out Teams and Outlook for company emails.

Don't forget to buy lowest spec Dell laptop with extra loud fans and buy logitech mice so it gets proper sticky quickly when combined with cheap soap you should stock in the toilets.

[David Hicklin]

Re: Way

I handed my laptop in and retired 14 days before I was going to get my w11 replacement

Ah timing !

[Anonymous Coward]

Ive downgraded to 10, im just fed up of borkage tuesday fixing one and breaking a dozen things.

Current bugbears are intel graphics driver deleting all the junctions from c:\users, power manglement just ignoring any settings change, power manglement deciding to save power by turning off usb devices while im using them, the constant reminders that "windows is better when you sign in to microsoft", one drive respawning like coke baggies in the whitehouse netties, and bootfw not working with linux. Which it used to do.

I'd go back to 7 on this laptop if vgashim worked.

[David Hicklin]

No, you UPgraded

[MazeFrame]

Slopping their way

Micro$lop on the one hand being the leading cause for hardware being expensive while also forcing everyone to upgrade has caused this.

The prospect of being raked over the coals for RAM and storage to bolster the absurd margins of the memory makers, then be scalped by Nvidia for graphics (AMD and Intel have 25-ish% share combined) only to then be the product for Micro$lop to push more buggy user-hostile BS is not an appealing one. I absolutely understand why private users are holding out. Business side, as laid out in the article, I guess the certified setups and unintentionally embedded non-embedded computers are what remains.

Looking at Valves numbers (HW survey) 70% Win11, 23% Win10, remainder is MacOS and Linuxes.

Most non-gamers I know have a tablet with an acompanying bluetooth keyboard for tasks formerly done on a laptop, everything else is done on phones.

The technical fixes that are organizationally unachievable are the same that M$ stumbled into on their attempt to enter the handheld gaming market: Put Win11 on a diet until it fits the resource footprint of Win7. In practical terms: 500MB RAM at idle, all but 1 CPU core parked. Tiny11 shows this can be done, if Satya were willing.

[tiggity]

Re: Slopping their way

@MazeFrame

" then be scalped by Nvidia for graphics (AMD and Intel have 25-ish% share combined) "

.. that sounds odd.

Most laptops ./ PCs at the low end just have default intel graphics, so % of computer users just using Intel integrated graphics is substantial

Most users do not add a dedicated GPU - some of the market are gamers (or have GPU requirements due to e.g. a lot of graphic design / vide editing), but a huge swathe of users are not using anything beyond ultra basic integrated graphics

Are you talking about market share based on price (as a low % of expensive NVidia units would be a hefty amount of market share viewed in cash terms) or are you only referencing market share of GPUs?.

[frankyunderwood123]

all of my work colleagues …

… who suffer from frequent crashes of teams or outlook or whatever are on win11.

Those on macOS and Linux have no problems at all.

It wasn’t like this with win10.

This is anecdotal, sure.

They are all on reasonably specced Dell laptops, which actually work amazingly well with Fedora installed.

It seems to me that Microsoft continue to hold dominance for their OS in the business world simply due to their other products. I’m sure there’s all manner of deals with big corporates where the OS for all intents and purposes is pretty much free - bundled with office licenses.

Back when I used windows as a primary OS for personal use , the only copy of windows I ever purchased was the one that made me leave windows for all but gaming, the ill fated windows 8. I still have the box and disk, perfectly possible to use the key to get win11 pro installed with just a quick phone call.

The OS has been free for decades via one way or another.

It is even possible to get a reasonably sane install of win11 with easy to use debloat tools, but you remain at constant risk of microsoft pulling the rug from under you with updates. Pretty much like running a hackintosh, where an apple update could ruin your day.

I no longer have a windows partition for games I cant run as I stopped VR gaming a year back.

Feels so good.

[blu3b3rry]

The hardware cost increase has properly bitten my employer on the arse. There was a huge splurge in buying desktop PC's for both the R&D and manufacturing sides of the business in around 2016/17, naturally meaning that these still-decent computers are effectively "obsolete" as they won't run W11 natively.

There was a rather short-sighted decision four or so years ago to rely on M$ cloudy services for *everything* and retire the few on-prem bits we had left including our DMS, so that effectively locks the company into MS products.

The hardware costs to replace the desktops would be enormous, so for now IT seem happy enough with piecemeal W11 upgrades using rufus to bypass the system requirements. Everything else is now running offline as much as possible and isn't likely to be replaced barring hardware failure.

[Roland6]

>” The hardware cost increase has properly bitten my employer on the arse.”

Just brought a new laptop for a friend. To calibrate my choice I took my current Lenovo laptop and using Passmark selected a current model with a similar multi-thread and single-thread performance rating. My laptop cost circa £800 in 2020, today’s equivalent is circa £1,800; inflation on its own should only have caused the price to increase to £1,045…

[gaston]

Cost versus risk

The costs associated with Windows 11 adds up: hardware and software, time spent removing Microsoft crapware, and generally reconfiguring Windows 11 to be as productive as a former Windows 10 platform. Right now hardware costs have caused us to paused phased upgrades. Run Linux where you can, windows 11 where you have to, and windows 10 where you always have. I’m actually surprised that windows 10 is under 17%. I detest windows 11 and fully expect Microsoft to squeeze the user base with a forced migration to windows 12 in another year or two.

[Roland6]

Re: Cost versus risk

>” and fully expect Microsoft to squeeze the user base with a forced migration to windows 12 in another year or two.”

I fully expect W12 to require a specific set of AI capable hardware. Ie. I don’t expect being able to run W11 as being sufficient for W12..

Given, based on past performance, MS should be announcing W12 in late 2026 with launch in autumn 2027, I’m in no hurry to upgrade working W10 systems with ESU to W11 just because that’s what MS want.

[williamyf]

Re: Cost versus risk

I agree 107% with you. Having said that, most modern-ish machines, even the lower cost ones, have NPUs nowadays. Now, if those machines wil have enough RAM to keep the models + the context + the OS + the APPs without trashing the Swap/PAge file is another issue entirely.

Let's also hope that MS also includes some usefull bumps in the requirments Like AVX 256 (instead of the current SSE4.2) and WDDM 2.4 instead of the current WDDM 2.0

[David Hicklin]

Re: Cost versus risk

Ah but W12 will need an NPU and a monthly subscription - no local accounts ever you pirates.

And no, the NPU specs with current machines won't be good enough and you will need XX whatevers, just like the w11 "required" TPM2.0

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Cost versus risk

If it's a subscription model why put in artificial barriers for uptake? It's not like you want to put in a H/W barrier to force the sale of a new one-off licence. Follow the money. You just need to be more cynical.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Cost versus risk

"I fully expect W12 to require a specific set of AI capable hardware. Ie. I don’t expect being able to run W11 as being sufficient for W12."

Maybe. But there's an alternative.

Look how MS makes money out of OS now: they sell you a licence for W11. Previously there were upgrade paths but they didn't get money for that. If they just said "no more free upgrades" they'd have been sued by those who'd just bought a new and not obsoleted W10. So they had to allow upgrades but how to restrict that? Restrict it by some period of time, say 2 years, and they still have problems with people whose 2 years had just expired. Put in a H/W requirement instead and it put in a cut-off date without putting in a cut-off date. They can sell new licences instead of offering free upgrades for everybody, it's just that the licences come wrapped up in H/W that's more expensive than most want to pay for. They'd still not be selling licences to those who couldn't afford new H/W. So we now have OS income stream 2. Sell extended support on a yearly basis.

Now look at how MS makes money out of other stuff: subscriptions. Even ESU looks like a subscription for W10 without having to squint too much.

If W12 adopts the subscription model there's no point in putting in H/W obstacles, the more people who can be persuaded to move their old H/W to W12 the better as far as MS are concerned, even if it never made the cut for W11.

[Roland6]

Re: Cost versus risk

>” Even ESU looks like a subscription for W10 without having to squint too much.”

It does look like with W10 ESU, Microsoft has solved the problem of how you differentiate between enrolled machines and not enrolled machines.

I seem to remember this was an issue MS claimed prevented them from offering Extended Support to XP users…

So agree it is just a small step to turn free ESU into subscription ESU and then into subscription beyond 1yr “warranty”…

>” If W12 adopts the subscription model there's no point in putting in H/W obstacles”

Whilst I agree, can’t see MS being like the AV vendors and continue to support out of support Windows platforms…

Aside: it would be interesting to see the platform data MS has accrued - they should know the user populations of each and every CPU running Windows, memory etc. so support can be readily targeted to those platforms actually being used.

[bernmeister]

What about the hidden systems?

Systems not connected to the iternet dont need an upgrade. I have seen POS and travel announcment systems running XP!. They work well. Why fix it when it is not boken? I upgraded to W10 a while back and my Webcam, scanner and printer stopped working because they had no W10 dtivers.

[Roland6]

Usual story - vendor forced obsolescence…

The problems aren’t unique to W10 and W11, we’ve had them with every Windows upgrade: vendor stops supporting old product, but supports new product which uses a significant amount of code from the old product.

It’s a problem that bedevils all products including open source and Linux; just that currently these aren’t the main focus of the criminals, given the mono-culture like deployment of Windows across most sectors.

[JoeCool]

17% ... We have achieved herd immunity.

I wonder why there isn't a business case for reverse engineering Win 11 patches into Win 10 patches, for non-criminal purposes.

[ChoHag]

Re: 17% ... We have achieved herd immunity.

Because the copyright cartel does not see a difference between criminal purposes and non-criminal purposes.

[Anonymous Coward]

"many medical devices or industrial systems have their OS tied directly to vendor certification, and in some cases a Windows 11-certified version of that device or software doesn't exist yet"

"Will never exist" is the reality. Assuming otherwise is just naive: Sellers of said devices believe they can sell new stuff by not supporting older devices.

Also hospitals use a lot XP (in some cases: DOS) in the controlling computer as the whole thing is certified only for XP and that's it.

You do not throw 20M device away because computer in front of it has "outdated" OS.

"Outdated" solely because of marketing department of MicroSlop.

[williamyf]

I have no inherent sympaty (or dislike) for Microsoft (BTW I am typing this on a Mac), but let's be honest here:

If the company making the medical/industrial equipment (or somesuch) choose vanilla WinXP or Win7 instead of WinXP POS-Ready or Win7 POS-Ready, then the responsability (and stupidity) lie with the company for making that decision (their techies should know better).

If a company making medical/industrial or somesuch equipment used Vanilla Win10 instead of using Win10 IoT, again, the onus is on the company, not microsoft.

Microsoft publishes these support guidelines ~10 years in advance, and rarely change them, and when they do change them, is to extend the support even more.

For reference, Vanilla winXP support ended in Apr 2014, ESU lasted until Apr 2017 meanwhile Embeded was supported until Apr 2019 (The OS launched in 2001)

For win7, Vanilla support ended in Jan 2020, ESU ended in Jan 2021, while POS-Ready support ended in Oct 2023 (the OS launched in Oct 2009)

For Win10, Vanilla support ended oct 2025, ESU for consumers (first time it is offered to consumers) will end on oct 2027, ESU for bussiness will end on oct 2028, and IoT support will end on Jan 2032 (the OS launched in Jul 2015)

So, again, complain to the seller of the device for choosing the wrong version of Windows, not to Microsoft.

Is like a medical equipment maker using ubuntu non-LTS to make their device, and you complaining that the device was ""Outdated" solely because of marketing department of "Krapnonical."" And no, even if it is Linux, you are not free to go and change the underlying Linux from non-LTS to LTS (or to other Linux), lest you lose the certification, just like you are not allowed to change the Win10 in a medical equipment from Vanilla to IoT lest you lose the certification...

¿See the analogy?

[Sorry that handle is already taken.]

For Win10, Vanilla support ended oct 2025, ESU for consumers (first time it is offered to consumers) will end on oct 2027, ESU for bussiness will end on oct 2028, and IoT support will end on Jan 2032 (the OS launched in Jul 2015)

So, again, complain to the seller of the device for choosing the wrong version of Windows, not to Microsoft.

What's different in Windows 10 IoT (Enterprise... LTSC... 2021) that makes all other versions of Windows 10 impossible to also support until 2032?

Absolutely blame Microsoft.

Fortunately there are ways to in-place upgrade an existing Windows 10 install to IoT Enterprise LTSC 2021.

[williamyf]

¿What's different from an LTS and Non-LTS version of Ubuntu that makes all other versions of Ubuntu imposible to support for 10 years?

¡Absolutely Blame Canonical for not supporting Non-LTS versions for 10 years!

[Sorry that handle is already taken.]

Ubuntu LTS is feature frozen, that's why it can be supported long-term. Every edition of Windows 10 is also feature frozen at this point...

[Doctor Syntax]

Before Windows the medical kit would have been using some proprietary H/W for the controlling computer, PGP/8, MicroNova, one of a variety of HP bench-top computers or whatever. The IBM PC and compatibles were eating into that market. Even before the IBM PC came along Apple & S100/Intel/Zilog H/W was moving into labs. It would have been very obvious to the techies making the choice that the choice they had to make was to the H/W of the future, not of the past. It wouldn't have been hard to see the old suppliers dropping out and, along with them, spares. What would you expect them to have done? There were instrument makers not (except for HP) computer makers. Nor were they OS developers, so they had to go along with whatever was commercially available.

Exactly what, in the real world, was the better decision you think they should have made?

[Anonymous Coward]

For medical equipment and quite a few other "embedded controller"-type purposes, the control computer is certified with the software installed as of this exact specific point in time, irrespective of which strain of Windows (or other base OS) release it was certified on. ***ANY*** updates decertify it, full stop. No manufacturers of such devices are willing to spend the huge amount of money to recertify their devices once a month - a single device can take multiple months, and that's just the internal testing, never mind getting through the government rubber stamp swamp (which in this case often involves waiting for their huge backlog of testing).

[John Musbach]

Microsoft themselves said windows 10 will be the last windows version they release outside of feature updates. This is on them.

[Doctor Syntax]

Apparently that wasn't an official announcement - just something somebody said. OTOH it wasn't officially denied.

[ecofeco]

LOL what a mess

Win 10 was not good, but Win 11 is a spy machine extraordinaire. I spent 3 months cutting off M$ mothership telemetry when I first installed it and I'm still not sure I stopped it all. I still spend far too much time on the lookout for anything I missed. Yes, I have other protections but as we all know, it's a moving target.

That said, I have NO sympathy for anyone who painted themselves into the corner of vendor lock-in.

I have one machine at home with Win 11 because M$ support is what I do for a living. My others are Linux. If I could find a Linux support job, I would be doing that instead. Alas, I live in the hinterlands of progress.

Win 11 is also firmly on the path of M$ SaaS in all things. As in already past the gate and down the lane a fair ways. The very antithesis of what a PC is supposed to be: freedom from the mainframe.

[Tim Chuma]

Not if you are running embedded systems off the network

Computers running machine tools can be decades old if they are kept running and free of grit.

If you only install stuff via USB and don't need to connect to a network you should be fine.

Recently started getting back into retro gaming again as the carts make it offline and you don't have to download patches.

[Anonymous Coward]

Comparing 10 to 11 is simple

11 is slower, so what have MS done

[7Bit]

Do you think...

...Microshaft are going to give up slurping all that lovely data? They'll keep Windoze 10 alive rather than lose all those lucky victims to Linux.

[Taliesinawen]

Windows 10: “the most secure Windows ever”

> A hard core of Windows 10 devices cannot or will not be migrated to Windows 11, leaving enterprises with a growing security problem as support options run out.

July 2015: “Today, we’re sharing more on security in Windows 10. Windows 10 has more built-in security protections to help safeguard you against viruses, phishing, and malware, it’s the most secure Windows ever.”

[ComicalEngineer]

I'll be retired

Thankfully I'll be retired when ESU ends for W10 :)

I spend 90% of my time on Linux Mint but occasionally need Teams / Word / Excel. I won't be using W11. SWMBO has it and I've tried it and I absolutely hated it, even after I'd removed a lot of the crapware.

I have no wish (and no time) to re-learn an operating system with 12 months to retirement.

[martinusher]

Who (or what) are you calling "Old"?

The World of Marketing relies on a very simple paradigm -- "Old Stuff Bad, New Stuff Good". Which as nothing to do with how useful something is or how well it works. I've got a variety of old tools, some of which might be 50 years or or more, but I don't look at some date code on them and replace them as if they're perishable.

The only reason why Windows 10 is obsolete, old, bad and so needs to be junked is that Microsoft has deemed it so.The code still works as well as it ever did with the only problem being that if it is always connected to the public Internet -- preferably directly so without any kind of firewall -- then it will get probed and owned by myriads of hopeful hackers (most of them bots, I'd guess). In a more controlled environment it will just work, and continue to just work, until the underlying hardware falls apart. (Its got some built-in failure mechanisms like immovable sectors on a disk and a tendency to hammer parts of that disk but I think this mechanism is happenstance rather than some Machiavellian plot.)

I confess to having a W10 machine still. Its used occasionally for specific off-line tasks. Even if I could be bothered to replace it I don't fancy spending the time and effort bringing all its software up on a new platform. I already wasted a couple of hours at the weekend on a balky USB interface, something that used to 'just work' on an older W10 system but doesn't want to work any more (its got 'timing' written all over it). I've got things to do, and those things don't involve messing around with 'the latest' software because experience -- and decades of interfacing with applications programmers -- have taught me that 'the latest' is rarely tested properly, for most of my purposes its more trouble than its worth.