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back to article LisaFPGA brings Apple's magnificent misfire back in programmable logic

Apple Lisas are rare now. Here's a rather cheaper way to build your own – and in theory, it can even use original floppy drives. LisaFPGA does what it says on the GitHub repo: "The Apple Lisa computer implemented inside an FPGA!" It's an open source project that recreates a complete Apple Lisa on an FPGA board. It's not entirely …

  1. Steve Graham

    LisaGUI

    You could usefully have included some of the concepts from your earlier article here: the idea is that there is no "application". There is simply the document, or spreadsheet, or image, or whatever. I found that fascinating.

    Fascinating because I think they were barking up the wrong tree.

    Today, if I right-click on, say a JPEG image icon, the window manager offers me a menu of applications which have registered as understanding JPEG. I can choose feh, because that can conveniently put the image into my desktop background, or viewnior, because that has a nicer GUI for getting image info. Or I can choose GIMP to edit it.

    What I'm saying is that the application, with its strengths and weaknesses, is more important to the user than the data, and a choice of applications is a benefit.

    1. Richard 12 Silver badge
      Angel

      Re: LisaGUI

      Ah, but this is Apple.

      There is only One True Way, blesséd by the ghost of Jobs. You will use it and be glad.

    2. Neil Barnes Silver badge

      Re: LisaGUI

      I could not agree more. I have never understood that particular bit of logic: it's ok as far as it goes, but it really ignores the concept that a user might want to process the data represented in different ways. Ah, this is an HTML file, obviously you want me to open a browser that knows how to display its contents. You would never want to view the contents directly, or to edit them, or create them from scratch, right?

      Although to be fair, they probably weren't aiming at people who understood computers, but rather those who had to use them in e.g. an office environment on a regular basis - in which case, they might see only word processing documents, spreadsheets, and email. One file type, one file handler: the word processor, the spreadsheet editor, the email client. So you end up with a very slick UI that can only do a limited number of tasks - that really nice car that can only drive on the motorway, but not the sideroads... and you can't change your own oil.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: LisaGUI

        "One file type, one file handler: the word processor, the spreadsheet editor, the email client. So you end up with a very slick UI that can only do a limited number of tasks"

        You have, of course, just described the sort of computer usage which is just about universal. The rest of us are just a fringe market.

    3. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: LisaGUI

      In a modern-day OS with this idea implemented in another timeline (instead of our stupid timeline), you would have a desktop background viewer, a viewer with nicer info, and an image editor and they would read and/or write all file types and if you right clicked on an image icon, you would see all your image viewers and editors without any being excluded because they don't understand a file type.

      The system would decode the JPEG and any other image format for them. If there were a new file type tomorrow the OS would be updated or some OS library would be installed to support it and all your applications would work with it without any changes.

      After the Lisa there were Datatypes on the Amiga, Mime types, and BeOS which carried on from where the Lisa started. And then that idea died as the two (then three) big OSes decided not to continue with that work.

      1. Richard 12 Silver badge

        Re: LisaGUI

        This is how modern-day OS actually do work for some file types.

        Video is perhaps the best-known example - because of Codec Hell.

        Microsoft decided to make some codecs a separate optional purchase, and thus many video files were unplayable. I gather they did that because MPEG licenses are expensive.

        When Apple decided to get rid of some older codecs, some video files became unplayable.

        Image formats also often work like this under the lid, but it has become such a pain that every application ships their own PNG reader instead of using the system ones.

        It's both a blessing and a curse.

  2. BinkyTheMagicPaperclip Silver badge

    Neat, although there are alternatives

    There are other (non FPGA) boards that will also recreate a Lisa. However it's a moderate amount of effort to do so, this one will no doubt be more convenient in the long run, and also this supports HDMI and USB peripherals.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Neat, although there are alternatives

      Maybe you need to explain HDMI and USB for the benefit of DrewPH.

  3. DrewPH Silver badge

    FPGA?

    Floating point google analytics?

    Flaming pancake grappling ataxia?

    Yes I know search engines exist but it would be helpful for articles like this to clarify less-than-universal acronyms or link to something.

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: FPGA?

      Freely Permitted to Google the Acronym.

    2. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: FPGA?

      Field Programmable Gate Arrays are rather common in computing.

    3. Bebu sa Ware Silver badge
      Windows

      Re: FPGA?

      Years ago was wondering too. The expansion of that acronym doesn't leave you much wiser unless you are are familar with (digital) electronic hardware.

      WikiP has an article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field-programmable_gate_array

      but when I was wondering WikiP didn't exist and Google might have just started (I probably used Altavista.)

      1. Martin an gof Silver badge

        Re: FPGA?

        The ULA - Uncommitted Logic Array - has been around since the 1970s. Ferranti was one manufacturer. These built arrays of logic gates (sometimes other component types) on a chip and then a client could interconnect those gates in whatever combination suited their use as the last manufacturing step, this being much cheaper than having a custom chip made. Sinclair famously made use of one in the Spectrum in order to eliminate dozens of individual ICs. Acorn did something similar when squeezing the BBC Micro's circuitry down to fit the Electron. This was, of course, a "write once" type process at the factory and if you found a mistake it was a pain to re-do things. I believe that getting the ULA right was a cause of delay for both the Spectrum and the Electron.

        It's a similar concept to the mask-programmed ROM those computers used which caused similar issues.

        For ROM first EPROM (erasable ROM, usually a few minutes under ultra violet light) and then EEPROM (electrically erasable) made development much quicker and for ULAs, FPGAs solve this problem. They are arrays of logic which are interconnected by, essentially, software. The connection list is loaded into the device at startup so you can do it at your desk and it's much, much faster to iterate through problems. I first played with them in the late 1980s at university and they weren't new then.

        What surprised me most was that essentially it's a very simple idea. The FPGA is a random mix of AND, OR, NOT, EOR gates or D-types or adders; it's just a look-up table. Or at least the ones I played with back then were. With caveats about 40-year-old braincells, each "cell" was effectively a 16-bit memory. Four input bits produced one output bit according to the bits stored in the memory and thus it was possible to produce even quite complex logic within just one cell. Maybe some of the cells were four to two?

        FPGAs these days are vastly more powerful than back then, of course!

        M.

      2. user555

        Re: FPGA?

        The Wikipedia article is lacking on the historical evolution. There used to be such things as "gate arrays." So you can see where the naming originates from. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gate_array

        They were a common sight before FPGAs existed. Gate arrays were designed as mask programmed chips and were far more capable than something like a PAL chip, which was mostly used as an address decoder.

      3. user555

        Re: FPGA?

        The Wikipedia article is lacking on the historical evolution. There used to be such things as "gate arrays." So you can see where the naming originates from. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gate_array

        They were a common sight before FPGAs existed. Gate arrays were designed as mask programmed chips and were far more capable than something like a PAL chip, which were mostly used as address decoders.

      4. user555

        "... doesn't leave you much wiser unless you are are familar with (digital) electronic hardware."

        Hehe, that tickles my fancy for some reason.

        The Wikipedia article is lacking on the historical evolution. There used to be such things as "gate arrays." So you can see where the naming originates from. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gate_array

        Gate arrays were designed as mask programmed chips and they were a common sight before FPGAs existed. These things were far more capable than something like a PAL chip, which was mostly just used as address decoders.

    4. bazza Silver badge

      Re: FPGA?

      Whilst one can go off and read a text book definition, one cannot really appreciate a technology without some first or second hand experience.

      Here’s some second hand experience….

      They are an array of programmable logic gates. The idea is that you can make any clocked logic circuit you like, within limits. They originated from earlier devices with few gates and more fixed wiring. If you want to make a CPU with one, you can. If you want a lot of copies of the same logic function, you can do that too.

      There are drawbacks. They’re hard to program. They’re slow in comparison to dedicated logic (400 MHz top?). They have limited space on them and once full your project is generally in deep trouble, generally discovering this at the end of the project not the beginning. Most of the time you’re better off with a CPU or an ASIC or a GPU.

      To address some of these shortcomings the manufacturers have added hard cores, things like PCI endpoints, DDR interfaces, actual CPU cores, signal processing accelerators, etc. But they remain problematic. For many applications a CPU or GPU is quicker, cheaper, and swifter to develop for.

      One key benefit is their immutability. You can be very sure about the programming of the logic gates, in a way that’s hard to match in software on a CPU. They’re pretty good in certain security systems.

      Overall, they fill certain niches. You have to be desperate to use one, but not so desperate as to develop an ASIC instead. That’s a pretty small market.

      1. bazza Silver badge

        Re: FPGA?

        Hmm, posts are slow in appearing today; I’ve just rewritten one I thought hadn’t got saved at the weekend!

    5. BoHu
      Gimp

      Re: FPGA?

      Frenzied Partying at the Great Animalhouse. The storyline goes: In the beginning were the PAL and the GAL, they became CPLD, and eventually grew into the polyamour BDSM of FPGA and related embedded eFPGA affairs [ eg. https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/6972431 ]. Happens to everyone ...

      And in this throbbing vein, a big spanking hand of applause to this here soft-core 68000 Motor-Ola! that gets all the bits of this particular Lisa going! Exciting stuff ... ;)

    6. bazza Silver badge

      Re: FPGA?

      I'll chip in; many explanations don't ever cover the "realities" of such devices, which is often what is needed to understand them better.

      The basics of an FPGA are that they're chips that contain a lot of logic gates, clock distribution circuitry, programmable look up tables for those logic gate, and the ability to join gates up to other gates in a reasonably arbitrary way. If you ever did any digital electronics using discrete logic chips like a 7400 (a chip that has 4 2-input NAND gates), then an FPGA allows you implement that logic circuit by programming its lookup tables (e.g. to give them the same truth table as a NAND) and defining the interconnect between gates that you want (which is like building the printed circuit board to hold your 74-series chips). The words are all there in the name: "Field Programmable" (the device is programmable and you don't need a lab to do it) "Gate Array" (a large number of logic gates that can be programmed).

      This sort of chip emerged from earlier more primitive concepts, where the circuit was less arbitrary, couldn't be as complex. Programmable logic has long been a way for electronics engineers to build circuits out of fewer components with more flexibility than is achieved by soldering discrete 74-series fixed-function chips to a board that you can't readily change. FPGAs emerged at the larger end of this market segment.

      In principle, you can recreate any logic circuit you like (within boundaries). And as a CPU is just a large amount of logic on a chip, if you have a big enough FPGA you can emulate that CPU, down to the last transistor (kinda).

      Early Problems

      A major consequences of this approach was 1) cost, 2) speed, 3) thermals, 4) programming difficulties.

      If you bought a chip capable of emulating 1000 logic gates, but used only 10, you were throwing money down the plughole.

      The designers of the chip had to account for every conceivable clock configuration, and so the logic circuit you can implement can't be clocked very quickly.

      By having far more transistors than was strictly necessary, there's power being dissipated for no good purpose.

      And, as they got more complex, programming became harder and harder. And they are not infinite; use too small an FPGA for the circuit you want, start again on the board design. That's really news, late in a project. In the bad old days, if you had a large project you could also run into the problem of the FPGA build tools failing to complete place and route; it was purely a matter of random chance as to whether the initial "guess" it would have to take would successfully fit everything in. Folk literally ended up with code that - one day would build, another day it wouldn't. And it'd take a whole day to tell you it'd failed too.

      All in all, kind of OK during development (at best), hopeless for production, and not competitive with a specifically designed chip for speed. About the only thing they're good at is having lots of copies of a logic circuit all running in parallel.

      In fact, a valid question is, "why did they ever succeed in the market?". The short answer to that is that - really - they didn't. Whilst the likes of Intel and Co saw massive markets build up around their products, the FPGA manufacturers always seem to have struggled. All their frailties pointed to "niche", and that's the market they've filled; the niche where people will overlook their problems, to some extent.

      Improvements

      To address some of these frailties, the FPGA manufacturers started to do things like add "hard cores"; bits of silicon dedicated to specific functions. These range from the kind of logic one needs for some signal processing maths operations, to whole CPUs (ARM or PowerPC), bus interfaces (PCI), memory (DDR). The idea being that - probably - your design may want some of this and - instead of having to implement it in look up tables - can just wire up to these existing functions.

      Why Isn't This Software?

      Good question! The answer really lies in the programming. On a CPU, one has the idea of being able to load up any software one wants. Whereas an FPGA - whilst it doesn't have to be programmed in a lab using special tools - there is the general expectation that the programming would not be changed once programmed. Some FPGA technologies this is even physical; the look up tables and routing are programmed by un-burning anti-fuses (yes, that's right) in a one-time operation.

      As with everything else in FPGAs these days, the lines are now somewhat blurry; you can on some models partially program them, and have them load up the rest later on (much like an OS and application).

      However, their most useful attribute today is that the firmware they're programmed with can be either physically permanent, or very hard to alter (lots of cryptographic protection and authentication of firmware content). This is ideal in a security environment where you want to separate something from something else with some sort of processing / channel in between. Built that processing and channel inside a modern FPGA and you can have a ton of assurance about that implementation that you simply cannot achieve with an OS + software.

      Signal Processing and other Maths

      The vendors like to big up their chips as being good for maths and signal processing. And indeed, a modern FPGA can be pretty pokey when it comes to ops / sec.

      However, their frailties still bite; a big, expensive modern FPGA may have a DDR interface on it, but a big cheap modern CPU might have 4 or more. And the FPGA might clock at only 400MHz, whilst the CPU can probably reach 4 or 5 GHz. And whilst the FPGA might still have a lot of "parallel", CPUs (with things like MMX, SSE, Altivec, AVX) aren't exactly short of parallelism either; a modern CPU can have 192 full CPU cores, each with 512bit vector units; that's a lot of parallelism clocked 10 times quicker. CPUs most severely and comprehensively outgun most FPGAs, especially when it comes to floating point arithmetic.

      If - as often happens in FPGA projects - there is some uncertainty as to the exact required algorithm, and as the project evolves so does the algorithm's memory requirements, it reaches a point where the FPGA's internal memory is insufficient and it's now reliant on that external DDR connected memory. At that point it's game over; a CPU would certainly have been the better bet.

      Real time? FPGAs are often cited as being good for real time; except, a modern CPU properly used is perfectly capable of being "real time" too. With a proper BIOS even Intel CPUs can be coerced into staying in a fixed power mode and not switching clock rates and voltages all the time. And a decent RTOS (VxWorks, Linux-PREEMPT_RT, INTEGRITY, etc) do a good enough job for most purposes.

      Summary

      In short, you've got to have some sort of burning engineering reason to want an application-specific integrated circuit in one's project, but can't afford to pay an ASIC manufacturer to make your part and o opt for an FPGA instead. And, not many of us do.

      Which is why Intel sold off Altera - which it had bought only a few years previously - with the company being lucky if it does $1billion a year. Xilinx - the other big player in FPGAs - got bought by AMD, and so their performance is a little bit opaque at the moment; I think it was doing about $1billion a year too before acquisition. I very much doubt AMD makes much money out of Xilinx. Meanwhile NVidia - GPU''s being the other major alternative "CPU-maths" - are clearing $100billions+ a year.

      So, Why Didn't AI pick on FPGAs?

      Some folk did. But at the end of the day, NVidia did a good job with CUDA, and a GPU is comparatively cheap.

      Another aspect is build time. If you're compiling CUDA code, it'll take, what, a few minutes at most? Whereas doing the place / route for a large FPGA can take a seriously large workstation an entire day. Your developer isn't doing much development for about 50% of the time. Being quicker to market matters, and you get their quicker with GPUs.

      Disclosure

      Personally, I hate FPGA for all but a very few specific use cases. Throughout all the time they've been around they've been marketed as the solution to all your problems, and universally failed to deliver on any of them. I've been stung by the manufacturers making things up, lying in data sheets and concealing silicon faults until you yourself stumbled across them (here's a lovely errata sheet instead of a working part). In contrast, I've built some fairly major specialised signal processing system with CPUs and rarely hit a problem at all. The lifecycle on FPGA projects is so slow that they're always behind the curve, always struggling for relevance.

      1. ICL1900-G3 Silver badge

        Re: FPGA?

        Thank you, Bazza, that was really interesting.

    7. Liam Proven (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

      Re: FPGA?

      > FPGA?

      Oh my word. I apologise.

      An FPGA is a general-purpose chip that you send software too -- that's why I linked the word "bitstream", which led to an explanation.

      You send the chip some data describing the components you want, and the chip reconfigures itself immediately to implement the circuit in the file. It becomes a hardware implementation of that chip design. Every time you power it on you must do this but it can be part of the boot process.

      They aren't as fast as manufactured chips, and obviously are a lot more expensive, but incredibly versatile.

      The 1980s version was a ULA, an Uncommitted Logic Array, programmed at the last stage of manufacture in the factory. The ZX Spectrum and Acorn Electron were built around these.

      But when they die of old age, they are irreplaceable... so now there are things like FPGA replacements for the Spectrum ULA, so you can bring a dead Speccy back to life. Even upgrade it!

      https://lotharek.pl/productdetail.php?id=408

      I did not think that any Reg reader wouldn't be familiar with them. I have written about other FPGA computers before, notably the Spectrum Next.

      https://www.theregister.com/on-prem/2022/01/06/diy-sinclair-clones-too-late-for-next-just-build-your-own/597456

      I interviewed the project lead:

      https://www.theregister.com/on-prem/2024/01/19/zx-spectrum-next-issue-2-ships-out-chip-shortages-be-damned/415169

      1. Electronics'R'Us
        Holmes

        Re: FPGA?

        Modern FPGAs are very fast, not necessarily from raw clock speed but because they are inherently parallel devices.

        Instruction decode in parallel with instruction fetch (so pipelIning). internal arbitrarily wide data paths (within the capability of the device - to feed a hard PCIe endpoint at 16Gb or 32Gb we still need to move that much data around at those speeds).

        They are not hard to develop for or program although the learning curve can be steep as VHDL/Verilog/<your language of choice> looks like software but the mindset is very much not software. I have been doing such stuff off and on for 30+ years and the biggest single headache is timing closure, particularly for physical pin interfaces. That has been helped a lot by the newer generation of tools that do a lot of the analysis for you.

        Some have internal flash so they load their bitstream from an internal memory array at powerup (used extensively in avionics as the configuration in flash is immune to single event upsets).

        They are very widely used for any number of things and many come with embedded cores (often ARM) so we can do the things that need speeding up in the fabric (and the fabric is faster than software by orders of magnitude) and then do some software around it.

        Much more common than many might think.

        1. bazza Silver badge

          Re: FPGA?

          Much is made of the parallelism one can have in an FPGA, but that's far from a unique trait, especially today. A GPU is fast only because it is very parallel. CPUs have had vector units for decades, and now have hundreds of cores and half a dozen memory interfaces. There's some very big chips available these days.

          There's more to "hard to develop for" than the learning curve of the language. It's the place and route time. It's a nightmare to develop a system if you can do only 1 build per day (as was not unusual on large FPGA designs). Software takes considerably less time to compile, and you can far more iterations in a single day than with a large FPGA design. The tools may have improved place / route compute times, but that doesn't help if you make a big change.

          Another area where a lot of development time is spent on FPGA systems is writing support code (for memory, other attached peripherals). Library code can help, but if you're assembling one's own board then there's a ton of work to do there. With a CPU, a good OS / sensible peripherals will just, well, work.

      2. BartyFartsLast Silver badge

        Re: FPGA?

        Kind of, an FPGA doesn't have software or even firmware because that implies executable code, it has what amounts to a map which configures the LUTs or configurable logic blocks and the interconnects between the and the real world I/O .

        It does get a bit confusing when you get FPGAs which contain an ARM core as well as the configurable logic.

        Even more confusingly, you can configure an FPGA to act as a CPU and if it has enough capacity, you can also include software that runs on the emulated CPU in the bitstream

        Fascinating devices and *lots* of fun to play with

        1. Electronics'R'Us
          Thumb Up

          Re: FPGA?

          I was using the Xilinx (as it was) Microblaze soft core back in the early 2000s in XIlinx parts.

      3. jake Silver badge

        Re: FPGA?

        IBM created a bit of a buzz at Comdex (CES?) in the early 90s when they demonstrated a full-size 32-bit MCA board that was essentially a giant FPGA implementing a Mainframe on a card. It was plugged into a PS/2 (duh!) and supposedly had really good workload capability, for what was essentially a gussied-up PC. Two 16-bit MCA cards were for I/O ... Sorry, I can't remember the specs.

        Why does nobody talk about the backrooms at trade shows anymore? Too many NDAs?

        1. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: FPGA?

          "IBM created a bit of a buzz at Comdex (CES?) in the early 90s when they demonstrated a full-size 32-bit MCA board that was essentially a giant FPGA implementing a Mainframe on a card. "

          If you can configure the hardware for each task, that could mean a big performance bump. Not ideal for general desktop computing, but if you were doing something like gene sequencing....

        2. BartyFartsLast Silver badge

          Re: FPGA?

          I remember seeing marketing for FPGAs suggesting they'd replace CPUs, saying you could upgrade or even change architecture in an instant just by reconfiguration of the device. Nice eidea but I don't think it ever happened? (I'dlove to be proven wrong and see the machine(s))

  4. Gene Cash Silver badge

    Lisas were expensive AF

    That was the main reason it failed. I remember all the articles on how you could buy 2 "regular" computers for the price, so why would you buy a Lisa?

    1. Bebu sa Ware Silver badge
      Windows

      Re: Lisas were expensive AF

      At USD10,000, too true.

      > why would you buy a Lisa?

      Because in 1983 there was nothing like it outside research labs. When I first saw a somewhat less expensive (USD2,400) Mac in 1984 and got to play with it, I pretty much knew that the personal computers' Pandora's box had been opened.

      In practice the imagewriter printer and the near WYSIWYG capability of macs sold a lot of macs into offices at least in these parts.

      I guess you had to be there. ;)

      1. Jonjonz

        Re: Lisas were expensive AF

        At the same time you could get a Datapoint desktop machine that could network, do accounting, word processing, email, all for around $5k. In 1982 that kind of capability was meant for secretaries and data input staff. No one then was going to spend the price of a new sedan on secretaries and data input plebs.

        1. Cliffwilliams44 Silver badge

          Re: Lisas were expensive AF

          I remember that day, at an Advertising Firm, that was one of our best customers, was talking into replacing all the IBM compatible PCs int he company with Macs by the art director. He convinced them that productivity would massively increase with the GUI interface and WYSIWYG. It didn't go well.

          All the secretaries (that's what we called them, back then) who were all Wordstar jockeys, revolted over the mouse! (This thing just slows me down!)

      2. MachDiamond Silver badge
        Windows

        Re: Lisas were expensive AF

        "I guess you had to be there. ;)"

        I was there. My first Mac was a Mac 512k.

        There needs to be an icon with a zimmer frame.

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: Lisas were expensive AF

          I was at the meeting of The Homebrew Computer Club when Jobs and TheWoz demonstrated their pre-production 128K Mac to the general public for the first time.

          When queried about the minimal RAM, Steve looked the room in the collective eye and told us "128K should be more than enough for any home user!". We weren't convinced, and Woz looked uncomfortable.

          For the record, Steve had a point ... we were running flight simulators in 64K at the time. Where did the industry go wrong?

      3. ianbetteridge

        Re: Lisas were expensive AF

        It's *really* hard from the perspective of 2026 to understand quite how revolutionary Lisa and then Macintosh were in the 1980s. If you have grown up with smartphones, in particular, both of them look incredibly dated conceptually.

      4. Jonjonz

        Re: Lisas were expensive AF

        Actually, back then you could buy for half the price a Datapoint machine that did word-processing, accounting, etc. and could network fully with then current enterprise computer systems, the Lisa could only do really basic terminal emulation.

        https://retrocomputingforum.com/t/datapoint-2200-father-of-the-personal-computer/600

      5. NetMage

        Re: Lisas were expensive AF

        I’m pretty sure that box opened with the Apple II and Visicalc.

      6. Gene Cash Silver badge

        Re: Lisas were expensive AF

        "Because in 1983 there was nothing like it outside research labs"

        Ah, but the rub is that wasn't visible on the other side of a magazine page. The journos didn't talk it up because they had no clue, and even if they did, it was impossible to get most of that across to an audience that DID NOT know what a mouse even was.

        Remember, Windows *2.0* wasn't released until 1988, which is 5 years later.

      7. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Lisas were expensive AF

        You mean Laserwriter? IIRC Imagewriter was a dot-matrix printer, and dot-matrix printers were nothing special in those days.

    2. Blue Pumpkin

      Re: Lisas were expensive AF

      The only thing comparable (I use the term loosely) at the time was probably the Perq - available under other names IIRC - that ran a complete SmallTalk environment.

      My recollection at the time was that these were about £20 000 a pop - and no snotty undergrad like me was ever going to get their hands on one.

      At the same time I remember a Sirius PC and a Sun workstation appearing - also in the £3000 to £5000 price bracket.

      So yes the Lisa was expensive compared to these but promised something else more akin to the Perq - though it took the Mac to actually deliver something usable for the masses.

      Even though that something was not the same as the Lisa.

    3. NetMage

      Re: Lisas were expensive AF

      It was eventually cheap for some. I was at college when the following year’s incoming CS students were required to purchase a Lisa with a hard drive at a very steep discount. The University followed up this wise decision by offering the next CS class a purchase of an IBM PC jr.

    4. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Lisas were expensive AF

      "so why would you buy a Lisa?"

      Because it was so clearly the future. And had the price been affordable it would have been. I doubt there were many who read the original write-up in Byte who didn't think "I want one of those." until they saw the price.

      If it had been made affordable for buyers the correspondingly greater sales must surely have made it affordable for Apple as well. However I think the Mac was Job's blessed project in which case it didn't stand a chance of being allowed to compete.

    5. Antron Argaiv Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: Lisas were expensive AF

      When we cleared out a lab at Data General, I was offered a Lisa (minus kb and mouse). Uncharachteristically for me, I declined. Would have been worth a bit now, if I had saved it and even purchased the kb and mouse new.

      Oh, well. I still have an Audrey somewhere.

  5. Jonjonz

    Half baked Word Processor

    I remember checking out the Lisa when it was first shown at the SF computer faire in 1982. Lisa was just a pricy early word processor. A year later my office had a Datapoint word processor that ran rings around the Lisa and cost half as much.

  6. BartyFartsLast Silver badge

    Every. Damn. Time

    Every time I see an article about Lisa, I'm reminded of the one I owned, full set of manuals, system disks, prototype hard disk and accessories,

    The one I threw in a skip.

    1. jake Silver badge

      Re: Every. Damn. Timex.

      Mine's down in the lab running SCO's port of Xenix. She used to keep an eye on the house's mechanical systems, now she's mostly retired.

  7. the reluctant commentard

    A very interesting but ultimately flawed machine

    From reading the articles on Andy Hertzfield's excellent www.folklore.org, the Lisa seems like a very interesting machine, but it's ultimate flaw that it was just too expensive.

    Seems Apple ended up wanting to build a commercial computer with a GUI interface to succeed the ageing Apple 2, and put together a team with roots in acedemia and mini computers. This led to a design using many daughterboards to offload functions from the main CPU - like you'd find in a minicomputer. But very unlike the Apple 2, where the little 6502 ran literally everything (to keep costs down, for a given definition of "down")

    In the end, that complexity drove costs for a Lisa through the roof, to a point where it just wasn't commercially viable anymore. At the same time, during its development, the Lisa (and later Macintosh) teams were figuring out how to make GUIs work in the "real" world of personal computing. Some pretty fundamental stuff we still use today was developed then, some ideas didn't work, some showed great potential but never made it, and some would only truly come in to play many, many years later (it took until the iPhone for the concept of an "information appliance" to finally be possible for instance - a device that changes its interface completely according to the task you are trying to accomplish. Or at least a mass-market implementation)

    While the Lisa was slowly progressing, it seems from the articles on www.folklore.org that Jobs saw the Motorola 68000 CPU and realised that an Apple 2 like Lisa was now possible: a much cheaper (again, relatively) design with a GUI where the CPU would be doing all the work.

    It also seemed like he was worried the Lisa was taking too long and becoming to complicated and expensive.

    He started a skunkworks project to build a machine along those lines, which would eventually see the light of day as the original Macintosh. Of course, developing two GUI based machines at the same time means there was plenty of scope for friction between the two teams, with the Lisa team thinking the Macintosh was undermining their project (which in the end it would turn out to be doing)

  8. 4E71guy

    Some notes. And queries answered

    From a guy who had at least one Lisa sitting on his desk for two damn years....

    The Lisa UI and HCI model mainly came from Smalltalk 80. You saw the same kind of UI model in the Xerox Altos and Star. The Mac broke a lot of that HCI model because it was not a Smalltak 80 machine. Or wanted to be. It was to be a Personal Computer. For the Apple II market.

    When the Lisa was announced there was nothing like it in its price range. I think a typical single user Xerox Star setup was around $25k at the time. I know the one I saw sitting in the corner of a friends apartment in 1985 was around $35K when the cost of all the additional doodahs was added. But a Symbolics 3600 Lisp machine went for over $100K so a very different world. Even into the 1990's had friends with $60K+ SGI workstation sitting on their desks. For programming.

    The Lisa project failed for the usual reasons. We Are A Real Grown Up Company Now So Our Next Machine Will Be Designed By People With Real Academic Qualifications. Like PhD's.

    So the Lisa motherboard was designed by people with EE degrees coming out the wazoo. And was shipped with a whole bunch of patch wires. Nicely color coded. And the boards designed (mostly) by Burrell Smith (who did not have a PhD in EE) were clean and almost a work of art. I just remember when we opened up the Lisas it was a rats nest inside. The 128K/512K Macs when opened up were really clean. But look out for that CRT..

    The Lisa software was the same story. Almost but never quite worked correctly. From first seed dev machines to last release before the "MacXL". The ultimate ignominy.

    So the Lisas crashed regularly. Quite apart from the really flakey ProFile external harddrives.

    The Mac was a great success because it was the "Anti-Lisa" project. Everything the Lisa dev teams (plural) did wrong the Mac Team (singular) did right. And despite the rewriting of history by some the Mac was a success despite Jobs not because of him. It was always a grudge project for him being sidelined and he was really just a glorified product marketing manager. But that's another story.

    Then one day we no longer needed to build on the Lisas. Building on MPW was now stable enough. And at least four Lisas and more ProFiles were immediately chucked in the dumpster out back of the office. Nobody wanted them. Even for free. They were so flakey over the years and hated so much. Lisa Workshop was a dog. Crashed all the time. Building even on an early beta of the Macintosh Programmer Workshop on MacPluses with HD20's and Radius Full Page Displays was absolutely heaven in comparison to the hell that was building on the Lisas. No more crashes. All crashes now were our bugs in our software.

    So all the Lisa's were thrown with real (and genuine) passion into the dumpster. Even if I knew then what I know now about how valuable those Lisas we dumped became I'd still chuck those ^%$@ into the dumpster. Without a second thought.

    By someone who was there. Even got the T-shirt. Still have a Macintosh Developers Team T-shirt somewhere.

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