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back to article Brit supermarket giant triples down on facial recog to nab shoplifters

The UK's second largest supermarket is tripling the number of stores that use facial recognition to try to clamp down on shoplifters – a move privacy campaigners are branding as "shameful." Sainsbury's first trialed the tech at premises in Sydenham and Bath Oldfield Park from September last year, before deploying it to shops …

  1. wolfetone Silver badge

    I stopped shopping at Sainsburys for a number of reasons, but the facial recognition one really fucked me off. I noticed these cameras all over the place on clip strips and there was (and still is) no signage stating what they're for or what they are doing. Where does the data go? What is it feeding? I'm there with my children and these cameras are recording them? Where is that data going? What is it being used for? To train nonce enabling AI models?

    They say this shit is for shoplifters. Fuck off is it. The only thieves here are Sainsburys, Tesco etc who charge you £10 for a fucking Toblerone unless you get a loyalty card then you can get it for £3.50. You can quite clearly sell it for that, with a profit, but you choose to spy on us.

    They can all get fucked.

    1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

      Whichever retailer and whichever vendor, this is complaint material under UK GDPR, and the grounds write themselves.

      Facial recognition templates are biometric data, special category under Article 9. Processing needs an Article 6 lawful basis plus a separate Article 9 condition. The candid route is explicit consent, which no shopper has given. So operators of these systems tend to reach for "substantial public interest" via the DPA 2018 Schedule 1 crime prevention condition, dressing a private company's shrinkage budget up as a public interest. A regulator with a spine would ask how loss prevention at a grocer clears that bar.

      Then proportionality. These systems template every face that crosses the threshold, children included, and compare each one against a watchlist so that a handful of suspects can be flagged. Screening the innocent wholesale is the mechanism itself, and Article 5 requires necessity and data minimisation. Recital 38 says children's data merits specific protection. Scanning toddlers to guard the meal deal fridge fails any balancing test performed honestly.

      Watchlists in this market deserve their own paragraph. They are typically built on staff allegations, shared across subscribing businesses, with no charge, no conviction and no independent appeal. A privatised criminal record, maintained by whoever profits from its consultation. And where the "human in the loop" amounts to a security guard glancing at a phone before marching someone out, Article 22 rights against solely automated decisions with significant effects start to bite, because review that never overturns an alert is decoration.

      Your signage point is a breach in its own right. Articles 12 and 13 require transparency at the point of collection, and ICO surveillance guidance expects prominent signage naming the controller and the purpose before you are in range of the lens. Cameras on clip strips with no notice is exactly the thing to evidence. Photograph them, note the store, date and time.

      Then use the rights you already hold. A subject access request under Article 15 to the retailer, and a second to whichever vendor runs the system, asking: was my biometric data processed, and my children's; am I on any watchlist, who put me there and on what evidence; who receives alerts; how long are matches and non-matches retained; does any of it leave the UK; are images or templates used to train or improve any model. Object under Article 21 at the same time; processing must stop unless they demonstrate compelling legitimate grounds overriding yours. Ask whether the Article 35 DPIA exists and whether they will disclose it.

      And request copies. Article 15(3) entitles you to the data itself, which includes any recordings in which you appear, plus watchlist images, alert logs and whatever metadata hangs off them. Give the store, date, time and what you were wearing, so nobody can plead inability to locate you. Other shoppers in frame have rights too, and the lawful response to that is blurring; a flat refusal on third-party grounds is one the ICO has rejected repeatedly. Move quickly, because conventional CCTV retention runs on a cycle of weeks and "no longer held" is the cheapest reply in the building. If they claim non-matched faces are deleted within seconds, ask for that in writing together with the deletion logs. A deletion claim without a log is a press release.

      1. druck Silver badge

        This is an excellent reference for people to establish their rights if they get caught up by the misapplication of this technology.

        1. DoctorPaul Bronze badge

          I read it as something that all of us should do BEFORE we get caught up. Added bonus of clogging up their systems as they process the requests.

          Maybe someone should put up a website where you get asked for the details and it spits out the necessary legalese for you to use.

      2. jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid Silver badge

        Something I've never got my head round: if I make a subject access request like you describe, I presume I have to give them my name and other details to allow them to accurately recognise me in their database. If they only have my biometrics (e.g. my facial recognition profile) not linked to my name, how do they correctly respond to the SAR?

        1. MachDiamond Silver badge

          "If they only have my biometrics (e.g. my facial recognition profile) not linked to my name, how do they correctly respond to the SAR?"

          I expect that if you have been collared for shoplifting at their store, they'll have your information. If you haven't, they won't.

          1. R Soul Silver badge

            Unless you're stupid enough to have a loyalty card.

            1. This post has been deleted by its author

              1. MachDiamond Silver badge

                "My local Tesco and Asda now take your picture at payment. Unless you're paying cash"

                So...... go with me here...... pay cash.

                I don't want a running inventory of what I buy tied to me. There's too much to be gleaned from that to be sold to data brokers. Age, sex, state of health, religion (or at least some narrowing) number of persons in household, alcohol consumption and even hints of medical conditions.

            2. MachDiamond Silver badge

              "Unless you're stupid enough to have a loyalty card."

              Why would I do that?

          2. jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid Silver badge

            No, I've not been collared for shoplifting and let's assume I paid cash (or left without buying anything). If they took my photo, how do they confirm or deny that they have my personal info (ie my photo and the biometrics derived from it that they would have used to compare with entries in the database) if they don't know it's me?

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              No, I've not been collared for shoplifting and let's assume I paid cash (or left without buying anything). If they took my photo, how do they confirm or deny that they have my personal info (ie my photo and the biometrics derived from it that they would have used to compare with entries in the database) if they don't know it's me?

              Why would they care who you are? They took your photo, it didn't match any previously identified thieves and you didn't steal anything, so they discarded your photo and nothing further happens.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Did they discard it, though, or did they file it for future reference?

                1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

                  If you're going to be that paranoid about it you might as well worry about all the CCTV around which doesn't have facial recognition attached, it's no longer an FR issue.

            2. Jonathan Richards 1 Silver badge

              Definition of Personal Data

              Data are only personal if they can be assigned to a living individual identifiable by the Data Controller[1]. I don't have to worry about taking pictures outside Bath Abbey with dozens of faces in them, because although I will process those face pixels, I cannot identify them with a living person. So cameras surveilling the store shelves and aisles are probably not collecting Personal Data[2]. When you stand at the payment till, swipe your loyalty card and Smile For The Camera, then that image is certainly Personal Data. As sergio says, the Privacy Impact Assessment which should have preceded the deployment of these systems, would have to address the privacy impacts and mitigations.

              [1] Data Protection Act 2018 UK Public General Acts 2018 c. 12 PART 1 Section 3 para (2)

              [[2] It is the very act of bio-measuring the face and collating that with a list of light-fingered ne'er-do-wells that makes some captures into Personal Data when there's a match.

      3. not.known@this.address
        Big Brother

        "explicit consent" = "you entered the store, we didn't drag you in"

        If you know the store has CCTV using facial rec and you choose to go in, you are giving explicit consent. If you do not consent to them taking mug shots, don't go in. Simples, as the meerkat says.

        I can forsee a time when the No.1 Supermarket in the UK (amongst certain groups - including those of us who don't like facial recognition software watching our every move as well as criminals) is the one that does *not* use facial recognition - at least, until they go out of business due to all the shoplifting....

        Besides, how many towns are now free of squinty-eyed council employees or subcontractors hunched over banks of CCTV monitors watching the general public going about their business on a daily basis? I believe the excuse is something to do with the area being a public space - but good luck going between any two private points without having to go through a public space...

    2. Bebu sa Ware Silver badge
      Coat

      "They can all get fucked."

      I wouldn't give them the pleasure. ;)

      Perhaps the impetus for a renaissance of the local shop and attendant shopkeepers like Albert Arkwright who might have been rude and grasping but never sinister at least in the league of Thiel and Karp.

      "Fetch cloth, Granville"

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    GDPR

    Easy, regular GDPR requests for Video, emails, AI training, Decisions, Database comments, reports, etc will bring the costs up to a point where it is not in their benefit.

    1. Evil Auditor Silver badge

      Re: GDPR

      I agree but with little hope. GDPR request costs are covered from a different pocket and they will not (do not want to) make the connection between the two. Realistically, they'll just find new ways to optimise their bottom line.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: GDPR

      They'll just stick a notice outside the store saying that by entering you're giving them permission to film you. I doubt if your pockets are deep enough to challenge that in court.

      1. Benny Cemoli

        Re: GDPR

        And that's exactly what a grocery store did here in the United States where I live. They scotch taped a poorly printed sign on the entrance door stating that for the "safety of their employees and customers" they were implementing a "facial recognition system" and that by entering the store you gave them permission to take an image of your face and store it in a database for facial recognition purposes. And that if you did not agree with having your facial image stored in the facial identification system you were instructed not to enter the facility.

        I immediately turned around and left vowing never to patronize the grocery establishment as long as the facial recognition system was in place.

        1. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: GDPR

          "I immediately turned around and left vowing never to patronize the grocery establishment as long as the facial recognition system was in place."

          Doing that could become harder and harder as shoplifting continues due to lack of enforcement and prosecution. Shops will have to find a way to protect themselves or close up. If somebody steals $500 (cost to the shop) worth of merchandise, that could represent the profit on $5,000 worth of sales, or less. It also means the need to do more physical inventory to make sure the inventory on the computer matches what's in the store or things taken won't get reordered. That costs money.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    You're right....

    > claimed that 90 percent of people identified through the system did not return to the store.

    Too right. If it identified me, falsely (obviously) and I was challenged/humiliated I would never return to a Sainsburys store.

    At one time there were my preferred supermarket - on the way home, easy to park/access, good range of products, but for around 20 years they have been in a terminal slide. Unhelpful staff, too much emphasis on self-service tills and not enough manned ones, partly empty shelves, constant price increases (see above comment about loyalty cards) and a generally poor experience. I now go out of my way to avoid them.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: You're right....

      Too right. If it identified me, falsely (obviously) and I was challenged/humiliated I would never return to a Sainsburys store.

      And why is that any different to being falsely identified by store security staff in person, and not via a camera?

      I can see why people are upset if this data is being logged or stored, or used for other purposes, but I really don't see the issue between a staff member calling security to say "hey, I think that guy shoplifted last time", and the same information coming out of a computer to the same security team. If anything, I think I'd trust the automated system over the flaky memory of a minimum-wage shelf stacker.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: You're right....

        None of the downvoters care to provide a counter-argument?

        1. Bebu sa Ware Silver badge
          Devil

          Re: You're right....

          > None of the downvoters care to provide a counter-argument?

          I didn't push the down arrow because I don't reside in the UK and this is just one tiny part of the general fuckedness of that realm.

          The reason I suspect no counter arguments were provided was they were manifold and obvious.

          Take the statement "hey, I think that guy shoplifted last time" which is inarguably defamatory if incorrect which would retard even the most retarded counter jumper and would almost certainly afford more discretion to the security staff to exercise his or her judgment simply because the responsibilty is ultimately theirs.

          The evil implicit in this technology is that the security staff must act on the instruction issued by the system thereby abrogating the individual's responsibility to act with discretion and apply personal judgment to the particular circumstances.

          † I use the word "evil" in its fullest sense. I am now convinced that the evil is not in the use of the technology but is implicit in the technology itself.

          1. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: You're right....

            "The evil† implicit in this technology is that the security staff must act on the instruction issued by the system thereby abrogating the individual's responsibility to act with discretion and apply personal judgment to the particular circumstances."

            Acting on instructions from the System is turning the tool into a god. FR is a tool and needs to be applied with due care.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: You're right....

            Take the statement "hey, I think that guy shoplifted last time" which is inarguably defamatory if incorrect which would retard even the most retarded counter jumper and would almost certainly afford more discretion to the security staff to exercise his or her judgment simply because the responsibilty is ultimately theirs.

            The evil† implicit in this technology is that the security staff must act on the instruction issued by the system thereby abrogating the individual's responsibility to act with discretion and apply personal judgment to the particular circumstances.

            I would disagree on both counts.

            Firstly, a staffer going to security and saying "hey, I think that guy shoplifted last time" isn't defamatory in any way, it's just an opinion. As you note, it is always up to security staff to use their judgement on whether to act or not. They may decide "Nope, looks like him but isn't him", or perhaps "Oy, you! You're barred, remember!". The latter could be defamatory if the security staff get it wrong, but that's their problem.

            Secondly, you claim that "security staff must act on the instruction issued by the system thereby abrogating the individual's responsibility to act with discretion". That's simply not true. If the system flags someone as a "possible" to the security staff, it is still their responsibility to make the call. As the article notes they can make mistakes, but they could make the same mistake if the alert comes from a person.

            Some of the commenters here seem to think that the result of a positive match (true or false) will be red lights and klaxons, and the shutters crashing down around the individual as they are booted out of the store, with no human judgement involved. That is not what happens.

        2. R Soul Silver badge

          care to provide a counter-argument?

          For starters, people tend to make the false assumption automated systems are never wrong. Or aren't prone to bias.

          If some minimum wage stooge in the shop calls you a thief, you can do something about that on the spot. That isn't the case when snooopercams are involved. You might not even know they're the reason you've been accused.

          Embracing Big Brother and all-seeing pervasive surveillance is unwise.

          There's no way of knowing what Sainsbury's does with its snooper database. There's no transparency on its oversight either. Which isn't the case when the accuser is a PFY at the checkout - remember them? - or the front door.

          FWIW I think Sainsbury's snoopercams are just security theatre to send thieves to other supermarket companies.

          1. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: care to provide a counter-argument?

            "FWIW I think Sainsbury's snoopercams are just security theatre to send thieves to other supermarket companies."

            The badgecam shows I'm seeing where the coppers are going to Walmarts and Targets in the US, the glimpses of the security in those stores says it's not theatre. It's real and the head office is making sure that all stores get data on people so they don't go on theft/scam tours and hit store after store. A couple of videos have showed just that where a group has put together a method often based on store policies that employees are required to follow.

  4. Philo T Farnsworth Silver badge

    Now if. . .

    . . . there was only some way of identifying serial price gougers that take advantage of temporary shortages in, say, eggs, to ratchet up prices (and profits) permanently.

    1. Briantist69

      Re: Now if. . .

      And the latest green-washing bollocks about white egg shells seems to have been used to NOT DISPLAY THE SIZE OF EGGS on the carton which is clearly unlawful.

      But Salisbury's is a serial law breaker.

  5. ComicalEngineer Silver badge
    Coat

    The first but not the last

    The level of shoplifting - let's call it what it is - theft - from supermarkets is estimated as about £2.2BN per year. On top of that it increases prices at the tills and puts up insurance. It's NOT a victimless crime.

    The UK Police (you can't call them a force) are too busy monitoring social media for hurty words than turning out for shop theft offences. In fact they won't even bother to respond if the value of the theft is less than £200 (that's in a statement from our local Police). That's why you're starting to find items like spirits, baby food, high value meats and even razors in locked cabinets.

    There are several reasons for shop theft, and it's one thing if you're starving and need to eat, but most of the thefts are done for money, whether this be organised crime gangs or in order to pay for drugs - again this is from our local police.

    Do I like the idea of facial recognition - absolutely not. Do I understand it being used in this situation - absolutely yes.

    Our local paper frequently runs stories about offenders with multiple convictions - sometimes in the hundreds - being caught again and again even when banned from shops.

    Crime and punishment is another discussion, but I can understand why Sainsbury's is doing this.

    As per the title, Sainsbury's may be the first - my opinion is that others will follow.

    As we know the tech is not 100% accurate but like all tech it will improve over time.

    A last point is that maybe it would not be necessary if the UK had a punishment system that was actually a deterrent. Again, that's another argument.

    1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

      Re: The first but not the last

      The £2.2bn deserves scrutiny before it gets waved around as settled fact. It comes from the British Retail Consortium's annual crime survey. A trade lobby asks its own members to estimate their own losses, nobody audits the answers, and the total gets published as national statistics. The same survey claims 20 million theft incidents in a year. Police recorded around half a million shoplifting offences. So roughly 97 per cent of the claimed incidents exist nowhere in the criminal record, only in retailers' own reporting. "Shrinkage" is an accounting residual: stock the system says should exist and doesn't. Admin error, supplier short-delivery, damage, expiry write-offs and staff theft all drain into the same bucket, and the customer thief is the most flattering label available for the contents. I allege no fudging. I note that the incentive gradient points one way, that no independent verification exists, and that the figure has just done its job as the lobbying instrument behind a new Act of Parliament. A number that useful should be audited. It isn't.

      Your £200 point has expired, and was never quite what your local force told you. Section 176 of the 2014 Act made sub-£200 shop theft a summary-only offence. That decided which court heard the case. Immunity never came into it, and no statute ever instructed police to stay home. Non-attendance under £200 was operational triage by forces, dressed in legal clothing whenever constituents asked awkward questions. Parliament repealed it in April anyway, so all shop theft is now triable as general theft carrying seven years. Watch whether attendance improves. If it doesn't, the threshold was never the reason.

      On the moral high ground generally. The sector performing outrage about theft books "surplus redistribution" as virtue while food banks report binning large portions of what arrives, mouldy produce and unstorable bread, with disposal costs landing on volunteers and the donation landing in the CSR report. Research launched in the Commons this year found the overwhelming majority of surveyed food aid workers had thrown donated food away. Spare me the sermon on the sanctity of stock from an industry that records waste transfer as philanthropy.

      The security tags I read differently. A tag is an involuntary price signal. It announces the item is worth stealing, which is the sincerest available endorsement that it is worth having. Suppliers increasingly bear the tagging cost themselves under source-tagging programmes, applied at the factory and negotiated into the cost price, and the tag vendors openly advertise "open merchandising" as the benefit, trade-speak for keeping desirable stock on shelves where it flatters itself. Deterrent and advert in one lump of plastic. Nobody needs to pay for the marketing effect. It arrives free with the deterrent, and goes conveniently unminded.

      On gangs, you have described the supply and skipped the demand. Fences exist for the same reason bakeries do: people want the product. Plenty who would never lift a razor themselves will buy one from a bloke at half price and ask no questions, because the shelf price has drifted somewhere insulting and the two-tier loyalty pricing rubs their nose in it daily. Organised acquisition sits downstream of a market the retailers' own pricing helped create. Naming the gang without naming the customer, or the pricing, is half an analysis.

      A cynic might add that nobody in charge seems in a desperate hurry. Theft relocates demand rather than destroying it. The goods get consumed, the shelves get restocked, the insurance churns, and it all registers as activity in an economy producing precious little of the genuine kind. I offer that as suspicion, no more.

      And if the complaint is that there aren't enough police, follow the money that would pay for them. Supermarket margins are genuinely thin, granted. The multinationals stocking the shelves are another story, and HMRC's own tax gap estimates run to tens of billions a year, an order of magnitude beyond the theft figure the sector campaigns on. A supply chain that engineered its tax obligations down to a rounding error has limited standing to demand a larger constabulary.

      Which brings us to the cameras. The state proposed mandatory digital ID for work last September, collected the better part of three million petition signatures against it, and retreated to "voluntary" by January. The infrastructure did not retreat. It moved into the supermarket doorway, privately operated, lightly supervised, overseen by a regulator whose enforcement cycle runs investigate, find problems, accept assurances, file. Train a population to present its face to buy bread and the voluntary label on everything else becomes decorative. Systems like this arrive by queue rather than decree, and by the time one feels sinister the habituation is years old. The destination has a name, fascism with a loyalty card, though the brochure will say "frictionless". Do I excuse theft? No. I decline to let a self-audited number, a repealed statute and a face scanner do my moral reasoning for me.

      1. ChoHag Silver badge
        Pint

        Re: The first but not the last

        Well said even if it was rather lacking in steak but unfortunately your conversation partner has already got his coat and left. That type can do the ranting against their supposed inferiors and how only a fascist leader they can brown their nose with will help us deal with the non-problem they've invented (if you think that's harsh read his last sentence again*), but they don't do the listening.

        [*] Reminds me of another strict right wing "but I'm not a fascist" I was talking to a while ago who went on at length how she's not an extremist or a MAGA (she's American) she just supports law and order and people who break the law should be punished and what's wrong with that? --- then asked me half an hour later if I knew where she could score some coke.

      2. Jason Hindle

        Re: The first but not the last

        I think you're splitting hairs over two big numbers, one of which will be greater than the other.

        https://www.perplexity.ai/search/aca0ba04-7471-4b5e-8575-8e376b0b0570

    2. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: The first but not the last

      "The UK Police (you can't call them a force) are too busy monitoring social media for hurty words than turning out for shop theft offences. In fact they won't even bother to respond if the value of the theft is less than £200 (that's in a statement from our local Police). That's why you're starting to find items like spirits, baby food, high value meats and even razors in locked cabinets."

      If there is no enforcement of theft laws, the shops have to do something to limit their losses. If thieves know they won't be picked up and if they are, they'll be let off, it's a positive feedback loop. It also makes the stores apt to lose even more. There are plenty of stories in the US in places where enforcement is lacking and prosecutors won't pursue charges if the theft is under $1k.

      We may wind up going to the Soviet practice of everything being behind the counter and one needs to get a slip, pay and then return to the sales counter to get their purchases. That or more shopping will be done online and delivered/put in a parcel locker or stores being turned into vending machines. Perhaps a hybrid where fresh fruit and veg is selected by the customer and most other things have to be ordered in some way.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The first but not the last

        Thats not so much soviet as how things were before supermarkets were invented. And its still like that outside the "western" bits of the world. You go to a shop, and a person helps you buy stuff.

        1. tiggity Silver badge

          Re: The first but not the last

          Some places like that in UK.

          I was in a pharmacist in Derby (UK) recently,, in one of the distinctly non upmarket parts of the town, nothing on display, you go through door, - interior mainly boarded up, just a "hole" on the counter big enough for staff to see you, and for passing through cash / card reader/ pour purchase. You told them what you wanted & they got it for you.

          This was due to it being a high crime area (& obviously pharmacies have products attractive to certain criminals so are popular targets) - it is not that uncommon for certain shops in high crime areas to be counter service only in the UK.

          On non crime related theme, there is still a traditional hardware store near me, a few things on display, but most stuff you have to ask at the counter, this is due to shop layout (shop has a small customer facing room with storage in an adjacent couple of rooms)

          1. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: The first but not the last

            Auto parts stores are like that in the US. That might be partly due to people picking up something and then setting it down just any ol' place they like. Many things can look nearly identical yet will only fit/work in certain cars so the shop wants to make sure the correct one is sold to the customer so they can disallow returns.

      2. R Soul Silver badge

        Re: The first but not the last

        "We may wind up going to the Soviet practice of everything being behind the counter and one needs to get a slip, pay and then return to the sales counter to get their purchases."

        We already have that. It's how you buy tat in Argos. Which is owned by Sainsbury's.

        BTW, the places where we buy stuff are called shops, not stores.

        1. xyz123 Silver badge

          Re: The first but not the last

          Russia has stopped almost all shoplifting by simply having NOTHING at all for sale. No food, no snacks, no drinks, no useable laptops etc.

          Putin and his cronies have stolen everything of value, prepping themselves for the inevitable soecietal collapse of Russia. (late 2026/early 2027)

          1. Bebu sa Ware Silver badge
            Coat

            Re: The first but not the last

            > Russia has stopped almost all shoplifting by simply having NOTHING at all for sale.

            Although I hear that Kiev is extending its drone delivery service. ;)

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: The first but not the last

              As they used to say, it's the bomb.

          2. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: The first but not the last

            "Russia has stopped almost all shoplifting by simply having NOTHING at all for sale. No food, no snacks, no drinks, no useable laptops etc."

            So back to the old Soviet playbook, including the expansionist policies.

    3. SundogUK Silver badge

      Re: The first but not the last

      I have been in Tesco's three times now when some shit-wit did a grab and scram. If security were allowed to intervene physically, we wouldn't have this problem.

      1. dinsdale54

        Re: The first but not the last

        I have reported the same guy stealing things from Waitrose to the security guard a number of times. The security chap knows him well but he's the only guard in the store and can't be everywhere.

        The local police inform me that they spend time at Sainsbury’s first thing in the morning. Sainsbury's security staff don't start work until a couple of hours after the store opens - DOH.

    4. Aladdin Sane Silver badge

      Re: The first but not the last

      We're actually supposed to call it the service now. Official vocab guidelines state that force is too aggressive.

      1. rasputinjones

        Re: The first but not the last

        Nobody tells me nothin'

        1. Aladdin Sane Silver badge

          Re: The first but not the last

          It's for the greater good.

    5. tiggity Silver badge

      Re: The first but not the last

      @ComicalEngineer

      They are one of many supermarkets that have cut staffed tills and moved to self service tills.

      They also have very few security staff.

      Big surprise, that increases shoplifting - some deliberate, some people just exasperated with malfunctioning automated systems.

      Increasing number of staffed tills & security staff would decrease shoplifting.

      However, bean counters have calculated that a certain amount of increased shoplifting is OK, as outweighed by staff cost savings: Maybe increased camera rollout is an indication they got their sums badly wrong & is yet another way to avoid extra staffing "costs"*.

      Know quite a few people who work in (variety of) supermarkets, so may have a bias - but from what they have told me, generally the shop floor staff are very under appreciated

      * Big hint, having more staff has net positive effects that are often overlooked,.

      e.g. with decent staffing levels a shopper can easily find staff on shop floor & ask where item X is located (something they have been hunting for unsuccessfully, finding target goods is not helped by supermarkets rearranging store layout every few months): This helps customer & increases chance of that shopper using the store again as they had a good experience.

      e.g. for older single people talking to someone on a checkout may be their only person to person interaction / chat in the whole day.

      Increased staffing helps catch shoplifters, more eyes to spot suspicious behaviour (more staff = workers not being totally overworked so can actually spend some time watching shoppers instead of race against time on shelf stacking) . It is not just spotting shopkeepers, allows the staff to spot shelving plans that work well (& more importantly, perform badly) .

      1. Azamino

        Re: The first but not the last

        When I worked for Sainsbury's theft was recorded under the 'Shrinkage' category. We had our regular thieves who were a fair spread of the mentally ill, alcoholics and downright criminal (on pay day I would see them selling their hauls outside the local pub). The difference today is the brazenness and the attitude, no attempt to hide the theft just fill a rucksack with bottles of wine and walk out! As an ex-employee I worry about safety too, I received the odd threat while collecting trolleys but nothing like today. People have been approached at bus stops and told to turn a blind-eye or face consequences, as happened in Ilford, Essex.

        You don't need to be a wannabe MAGA fan to know that shop theft is out of hand or want it addressed.

      2. This post has been deleted by its author

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The first but not the last

        allows the staff to spot shelving plans that work well (& more importantly, perform badly) .

        Actually there's a whole marketing discipline around that. They have calculations about which way people turn on entry, whether they look up or down, what effect the music has, etc.

        It's often down to the individual reps, they'll give the store a better discount if their tins are placed at eye level above their competitors (then the competing rep comes in and moves them!).

      4. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: The first but not the last

        "Big surprise, that increases shoplifting - some deliberate, some people just exasperated with malfunctioning automated systems."

        There's a big DIY shop where I always find a human powered till. If I'm buying lumber that's charged by the linear foot, which is often, I need a staff member anyway to measure it and input the length. They have 6 self-checkouts with one person supervising them so it's always a wait. How do I explain to a machine that since I can't fit a 10' length of something in my car that I cut it or had cut for me, but it's charged by the whole piece? There's also no way to put these things on a scale after scanning since they won't fit. Screw all of that, just get a human that knows what they are doing and I'm out in a few minutes.

      5. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The first but not the last

        Some stores here (SE US) have converted some tills to self-service. Frankly, I prefer them; I won't put my milk on top of the bread, like the minimum-wage bagger who's expected to go as fast as possible. The line typically goes faster, too, as it's one line for up to 4 tills, rather than trying to predict which staffed till will go quickest.

        The Walmarts typically have a "greeter" who asks folks for receipts. Got to know one, and witnessed somebody wheeling out a big-screen TV from the self-checkout area. Greeter asked to see the receipt, shopper claimed to have left it at the till and went back for it... and didn't come back through. Greeter said a LOT of big-ticket item thefts are stopped that way.

  6. Empire of the Pussycat Silver badge

    Tbh it's what one would expect from Satansburys

    Best avoided.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Just another reason to avoid them beyond high prices.

  8. Little Mouse

    That explains their creepy TV advert then

    You know the one, The one where all the staff mysteriously know your first name and keep a suspiciously friendly close eye on you from the moment you arrive at the store.

    Welcome to Waynesbury's. It's a fucking Utopia don't you know.

    1. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: That explains their creepy TV advert then

      "The one where all the staff mysteriously know your first name and keep a suspiciously friendly close eye on you from the moment you arrive at the store."

      And, since you've left on the bluetooth on your phone, they know you track through the store and where you've lingered.

  9. DS999 Silver badge

    Simple solution

    Pass a law that being accosted or otherwise accused of shoplifting when you have shoplifted nothing entitles you to £100 compensation for first offense, and doubling on each recurrence within a year. And further require that stores can't bar you from entering just because they have a defective FR system that keeps falsely tagging you as a shoplifter.

    They would be forced to tune their FR to be a lot better at screening out false positives, and be more circumspect in their decision to approach that person - i.e. maybe they'd simply use that as a cue to watch them as they walk around the store and only approach them if they witness them in the act of shoplifting.

    This is gonna happen more often over time not because of facial recognition but because of AI. They'll have AI watching security video and it'll be trained on "shoplifting" behavior like grabbing something from the shelves and sticking it in your pocket or whatever. No doubt that will be as accurate as AI is generally, but it won't point the finger at mostly non-whites whom facial recognition is worse at matching, but everyone equally of all races, ages and genders. Once it becomes equal opportunity it will be seen as a much bigger problem by the people who today are willing to excuse it because it mostly victimizes "others" who don't look like them.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Simple solution

      4 downvotes? I guess certain people dont like being reminded of the racism inherent in society, and that ai & facial recognition systems are provably racist, becuase the designers havent taken the care to create an unbiased system.

      Of course, that doesnt cover the classism inherent in profiling customers. Places like Harrods think you shouldnt shop there in poor people clothes, such as denim. Look a bit scruffy, and half the staff in curries will follow you around.

      One fix is punishing businesses tbat are taking the mick out of the DPA. The other is fixing the issues in society that make shoplifting necessary. Drugs, low pay, intermittent work and zero hours contracts need fixing. Its not like its a new problem, we have always known the devil makes work for idle hands.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Simple solution

        Downvotes because it's a silly idea that would be unenforceable. very few people get falsely accused, and when it does happen it's usually a mistake on the part of the security staff.

        1. DS999 Silver badge

          Re: Simple solution

          If few people are falsely accused then surely no one would be against a law requiring payment for those who are.

      2. Benny Cemoli

        Re: Simple solution

        When nine out of ten of your shoplifters are of a certain racial minority it isn't racism. It's reality. And no amount of claims otherwise will make it any different. There is a certain racial minority, especially in the United States, that thinks it's entitled to walk into a shop and steal whatever they want without consequence.

        And a better "fix" is to punish the shoplifters when they are caught and not just let them slide time and time again. If that were to happen then shops wouldn't have to take draconian measures like installing facial identification/recognition systems in the first place.

        But here we are and there we go.

        eot

        1. DS999 Silver badge

          Re: Simple solution

          So you're willing to pay higher local taxes to fund the bigger jails that would be necessary to hold all the people accused of petty crimes like shoplifting?

          1. Azamino

            Re: Simple solution

            Your definition of 'petty' is different to mine. Shoplifting can have serious consequences, for example Lidl closing their Camden store because persistent theft made it uneconomic. Most staff should have been transferred to nearby stores but some will have lost perfectly good jobs, while others now have more time-consuming / expensive journeys to work. If putting thieves in prison stops regular working people from losing their jobs then I am all for it.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Simple solution

            So you're willing to pay higher local taxes to fund the bigger jails that would be necessary to hold all the people accused of petty crimes like shoplifting?

            The idea behind the threat of putting people in jail for a crime is to deter them from doing it. If there's no penalty, why should they stop?

            1. DS999 Silver badge

              Re: Simple solution

              Shoplifting is a mostly victimless and almost never violent crime. It is the perfect candidate for house arrest using a GPS ankle monitor. Let them keep going to work (if they have a job) or school (if they are in school) but force them to spend a month at home other than those places. That's way better than a day or two in jail. And if you think shoplifting deserves a month or two locked up behind bars 24x7 then I'm glad you're not a judge.

              1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge
                FAIL

                Re: Simple solution

                Shop theft is most certainly NOT a victimless crime. Every item stolen from a shop puts up its costs, both directly for the stolen item and indirectly for the additional security needed to stop the theft. Those costs are passed on to the honest customers. At over £2bn per year total in the UK, that's well over £100 added to the average annual shop for each of us. The victims of shop theft are every single customer of the shop.

                1. DS999 Silver badge

                  Re: Simple solution

                  If you're using the "cost on society" model then I hope you'd go even harder on for instance the CEOs/board of companies that pollute since the cost on society is far larger than that incurred by shoplifters.

                  But I find most of the right wing "tough on crime" people are suddenly all squishy soft on crime when it is committed by rich white people. I wonder why that is?

                  1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

                    Re: Simple solution

                    Nice bit of whataboutery, but irrelevant.

                2. MachDiamond Silver badge

                  Re: Simple solution

                  "At over £2bn per year total in the UK, that's well over £100 added to the average annual shop for each of us. The victims of shop theft are every single customer of the shop."

                  It can be more nuanced than that. The things that get stolen the most might wind up being too much of a loss to continue stocking. If those items are locked up, there's employee handling time to retrieve them for a customer added cost for the time and the locked enclosure.

                  Razors new in packaging are one of the things I look for at estate sales. This year I've picked up a couple of big box mega-packs so I'm set until 2027. It also saves me time in tracking down a salesperson at a shop who then has to try and find who has the key for the lockup. The alternative is to buy online, in-bulk, which I do for some things.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Simple solution

          Your racism is showing.

          I've seen plenty of shoplifters. Raiding places as high class as poundland. Every single one one was white as flour and clearly fueled by Blyths greatest import#.

          Theres plenty of reasons why theft is increasing. Skin melatonin content is irrelevant.

          # Thats heroin.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Covid face masks

    I place a folded receipt over the camera on the tills at Sainsbury and Tesco

    I wear a face mask in boots as they have over head cameras

    I avoid the police to avoid facial recognition

    No one asked me for my consent the gov of the day has overstepped the mark

    I just wish there was a way to roll this back

    Guilty until you can prove innocent

    UK justice another sale item

    1. Bebu sa Ware Silver badge
      Big Brother

      Re: Covid face masks

      > UK justice another sale item

      Like most of the tat in the discount baskets in the aisle of dreams, defective and inaccurately described but with no return, no refund, no replacement.

    2. 42656e4d203239

      Re: Covid face masks

      >>I place a folded receipt over the camera on the tills at Sainsbury and Tesco

      In the words of a now long dead old chum "you're too late mate". The till camera will have your pretty visage squirrelled away long before you manage to block the camera.

      Have you looked at the range on those things? My kids just dance the magic dance in front of them - even better if its a till with a big old screen showing you what it can see - they love being on TV.

    3. Eric 9001

      Re: Covid face masks

      There's usually also an overhead camera in addition to the screen camera.

  11. Tron Silver badge

    Orwell's dystopia is already here.

    This sort of 'in your face' reminder might communicate this to the generally thick, general public.

    Historically, most facial tech worked quite badly on anyone who wasn't a whiter shade of pale, so maybe lots of really bad PR waiting to happen there.

    Once they have added AI to their systems, fun might be had by holding a QR code up to FR cams.

    1. jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid Silver badge

      Re: Orwell's dystopia is already here.

      "fun might be had by holding a QR code up to FR cams"

      Just on a hypothetical basis you understand, but would doing that with the intention of making the FR system do something it shouldn't, be possibly an offence under the computer misuse act?

      Asking for a friend, of course.

    2. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: Orwell's dystopia is already here.

      Why would a CCTV camera have the ability to read a QR code?

      1. Joe W Silver badge

        Re: Orwell's dystopia is already here.

        Embedded system with the default libraries in place and some lazy sod vibe code extending the demo software that came with it?

      2. jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid Silver badge

        Re: Orwell's dystopia is already here.

        Why would a database execute commands in a data entry field?

        1. Little Mouse

          Re: Orwell's dystopia is already here.

          Some people might not appreciate that input sanitation matters and Buffer Overflow attacks are a real thing.

          That poses an interesting challenge for facial recognition hacks..

          A specially-shaped second nose?

          Eyes all bunched up like a cartoon spider?

          Regular features, but outside what would be considered "normal" size?

          Something's got to break it, Shirley?

          1. xyz123 Silver badge

            Re: Orwell's dystopia is already here.

            Face on your hat would be interesting. Does the AI see two people or disregard one of them as an error?

            Same with fake arms.

            if it thinks thats a fake arm..will it ignore the arm picking up a laptop?

            1. MachDiamond Silver badge

              Re: Orwell's dystopia is already here.

              "Face on your hat would be interesting."

              I just knew buying the package of googly eyes would come in useful!

      3. Tron Silver badge

        Re: Orwell's dystopia is already here.

        If you were testing/maintaining a CCTV system, it would be a useful/quick way of interacting with the software, assuming there was some sort of security protocol. But everything is done shoddily, on the cheap nowadays, and you never know what might happen unless you try it. Lost count of the number of pieces of software that have left obscure access points in on the assumption that nobody would ever find them. And AI is becoming so baked into OSs, that you never know how much priority might be given to it.

  12. Blackjack Silver badge

    If anything will make people buy their food online only, is shit like this.

    1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

      As long as they buy the stuff, won't that mean the technology has served its purpose of deterring theft?

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    We’re all guilty of something

    We just haven’t been fitted up yet.

    - Constable Savage

  14. xyz123 Silver badge

    Someone somewhere is going to find a way not to STEAL products, but to make Sainsburys system THINK they have.

    Then when they get nabbed or banned, they can sue for defamation or discrimination. "your system targetted me because I'm elderly/black/gay/was wearing a religious necklace etc."

    I bet their "AI" hasn't been trained on how to detect someone deliberately tricking it this way, only to try to stop theft.

    1. MachDiamond Silver badge

      "Then when they get nabbed or banned, they can sue for defamation or discrimination. "your system targetted me because I'm elderly/black/gay/was wearing a religious necklace etc.""

      In the US, a shopkeeper can ban you for any reason they like without having to disclose what the reason is. They only have to notify you that you are trespassed and should not return. If they are banning people based on something such as skin color, that won't be what they put in the database. It would be tough to prove against them in court as well unless you had a stack of emails, voice memos or other damning evidence to show. You say is was due to your religion and they say it was due to shoplifting in court. He said/she said and the judge falls back on the businesses right to sell to whom they like as a general case.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    We see what's in front of us and the issues it causes but rarely do we notice the long term goals.

    This data will get sold. It will have face scans of nearly everyone eventually when it's everywhere and it will be nearly everywhere. This data then feeds into the national ID project that's also part of the "protect the children" website/OS age verification. Then they use all those shiny new AI data centres to track, monitor everyone and link all the data together because what else exactly are they going to get used for? The dawn of the totalitarian society age is now truly upon us. There is a status quo that needs protecting for the rich at any cost.

  16. Bebu sa Ware Silver badge
    Devil

    I wondering whether the facial recognition cameras filter the IR

    Your phone's camera is quite good at picking up the IR from your TV remote (try it.)

    If the cameras used for facial recognition were as sensitive, wearing headgear etc decorated with high power IR LEDs might saturate the camera's sensors (CCD?)

    An idea for an urban anarchist's maker·thon.

    (Personally I would go for concealing a high powered UV laser under my hat controlled by a system that locates any surveillance cameras and zaps their optics.)

    1. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: I wondering whether the facial recognition cameras filter the IR

      "If the cameras used for facial recognition were as sensitive, wearing headgear etc decorated with high power IR LEDs might saturate the camera's sensors (CCD?)"

      I'd try to make a face in the IR spectrum that looks like somebody else and put that on a hat. Yes, it would be small than your own face, but the CCTV might be fooled and not able to see your face through the IR light source(s).

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I wondering whether the facial recognition cameras filter the IR

      wearing headgear etc decorated with high power IR LEDs might saturate the camera's sensors (CCD?)

      Which would immediately trigger the "suspicious person" alert & have security down on you.

      1. DS999 Silver badge

        Re: I wondering whether the facial recognition cameras filter the IR

        Which would immediately trigger the "suspicious person" alert & have security down on you

        And what could they do to you, if you aren't stealing anything?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: I wondering whether the facial recognition cameras filter the IR

          They're entitled to ask you to leave anyway, no shop is obliged to serve someone if they don't want to.

          1. DS999 Silver badge

            Re: I wondering whether the facial recognition cameras filter the IR

            Which they can already do if you're wearing a facemask, wearing an overcoat when it is warm out, carrying a backpack etc. and do in some places.

            1. MachDiamond Silver badge

              Re: I wondering whether the facial recognition cameras filter the IR

              "Which they can already do if you're wearing a facemask, wearing an overcoat when it is warm out, carrying a backpack etc. and do in some places."

              The Hoodie is the standard uniform of many criminals and it makes them even easier to spot in warm weather. It's also a dead giveaway if somebody arrives at a shop in a car and is wearing a backpack as they go into the store.

    3. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: I wondering whether the facial recognition cameras filter the IR

      "Your phone's camera is quite good at picking up the IR from your TV remote (try it.)"

      It's a very fast way to check a remote. I grab loose remotes at estate sales to resell. Sony is a favorite as they retail for serious money so they're worth the effort to put on eBay. I use a simless phone to check all the buttons quickly. I have a detector that I can hook to my o-scope to look at the codes, but that's not needed for a quick function check. Everything I've looked at either works or it doesn't. I haven't found anything the lights up the LED with duff code.

  17. JimmyPage Silver badge
    Flame

    Shame this comes at the expense

    of sorting their fucking stock out.

    If you use the online site to shop from favourites, you will be aware of the parade of items that are "Out of stock". If you don't use favourites it hides the entry for them to give the illusion of their being somehow competent.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    So a logical extension of all this

    is that shoppers no longer need to carry a means of payment, or be subjected to age checks. After all, if the system is 100% sure you are who you say you are, all of that falls to the wayside.

    What's that you say ? "Not that sort of facial recognition" ?

    Just fuck off.

  19. TimMaher Silver badge
    Big Brother

    Person of Interest

    Anybody watch that?

    Laughably lightweight at the episode level, however…

    … they seem to have taken a dystopian, technically competent, underlying narrative that is really up to date and very worrying.

    Considering that this stuff was made between 2011 and 2016.

    I recommend all 103 episodes.

  20. martinusher Silver badge

    Understandable, unfortunately

    Its a logical extension to store "loss prevention personnel" watching you on CCTV. Which if US practice is anything to go by they do far more extensively than people realize. The most likely use of this technology is to trigger a notification that someone of interest has entered a store. This may be because they're suspected of shopliftnig or they have been caught once and have signed an agreement not to enter the company's stores for a period of time.

    Systematic shoplifting is now a real problem. The problem is not people stealing a bit of food because they can't afford to eat -- the people who work in those stores aren't paid that much so understand exactly where these people are coming from -- but rather its the systematic stealing of high value items, especially cosmetics and the like, for resale on platforms such as Facebook Marketplace. These thefts are often organized and the stores have an interest in not just aggregating the thefts but also discovering where the products are being fenced. The alternative is that you find more and more products locked up which makes everyday shopping a chore.

    (As for people in the UK complaining about CCTV and facial recognition -- where were you all 20--30 years ago? What did you think would happen once all those cameras went up?)

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