Windows 11 can now turn back the clock when updates go bad

Users with hopelessly borked Windows devices have a new avenue of recovery in the form of point-in-time restore for Windows 11. The service is designed to restore a Windows 11 PC to its exact state at an earlier point in time and is accessed through the Troubleshoot menu in the Windows Recovery Environment. Choose Point-in- …

[Paul Herber]

Windows Recovery Environment.

What about when an update to the Windows Recovery Environment goes wrong?

[UCAP]

Re: Windows Recovery Environment.

At that point, you are probably screwed.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Windows Recovery Environment.

You were screwed the moment you accepted that license. Everything else is just a signpost on the way downhill..

Coffee, I need coffee..

[simonlb]

Re: Windows Recovery Environment.

You can't boot from an ISO USB drive and roll it back like with Timeshift in Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

3 day weekends?

How about not releasing updates that bork computers? Or is that still too hard?

[DJV]

Re: How about not releasing updates that bork computers?

Now that's just crazy talk!

[DS999]

Re: 3 day weekends?

What do you expect them to do, test stuff before release? Be realistic that's far too much to ask!

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: 3 day weekends?

Yes, that's YOUR job as a customer! At least if you're a Microsoft user.

[Fursty Ferret]

Re: 3 day weekends?

I think if it were possible to test every single combination of hardware and software against a potential update, they would. I await - with muted curiosity - your proposal for a way to do this.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: 3 day weekends?

I think if it were possible to test every single combination of hardware and software against a potential update, they would. I await - with muted curiosity - your proposal for a way to do this.

I don't think it really needs to. So for updates, informing the user there's a problem with X. It kinda, sorta does this already with the Device Mangler sometimes having an error for some device, but you have to go looking for it to find out what that device might be.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: 3 day weekends?

Not every combination, but a sensible number of use cases. That's what hardware compatibility statements are for.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: 3 day weekends?

Considering the scope of several recent fails, just chucking an update onto whatever spare system is kicking around someone's desk would be a huge improvement. Or even just installing on the developer's PC instead of "It builds, ship it!"

[DS999]

Re: 3 day weekends?

Hardware has much less variety today than it did 20 years ago so there's no reason why the initial quality of patches has to be so much worse than it used to be. Seems like every Windows 11 Patch Tuesday has major borkage.

And some of it has been borkage for EVERYONE, so you can't fall back on the excuse of "they can't test every possible scenario". If I had to guess the problem is that Microsoft is testing on systems that have had a clean install of Windows 11 and then they load in the patches. That's a very different environment from a PC that was purchased with Windows 10, updated for a few years, then upgraded to Windows 11 and more regular patching. Cruft tends to build up in those situations, but Microsoft's testing process probably assumes far cleaner systems than most people have in the real world.

[xyz123]

So part of Microsofts "keep all your data for future blackmail?"

Taking bets the "every 24hrs backup" contains T&Cs legal wording allowing microsoft to store all or part of your backup on THEIR server systems......

[Blackjack]

It is nice for Windows to finally walk a few steps forwards even if it keeps racing backwards.

[Andy Non]

Can it turn the clock all the way

back to Windows 7, please?

[sarusa]

Fecal Firehose Splashguard

So instead of fixing their completely broken software dev and QA process and maybe not just randomly releasing vibe coded (and vibe tested) shite, the answer is to install a splash-guard for their fire hose of fecal matter. Yep, this is totally on brand for Microslop.

[Jou (Mxyzptlk)]

Access from bootable USB stick with updates Windows RE?

That is the quesion: Boot from USB, and then use that menu to use a recovery point.

So how do you update that boot-WinRE... Yes I know how, but MS should do that when creating the recovery stick, so does it? Anybody dare to test?

While they are at it they could remove the restrictions/Limitations which make VSS for Server differ from VSS for Clients. Bring back the "configure shadowcopy" for clients. Bring back the "vssadmin.exe Create Shadow /for=C:" command line. For this I have created my powershell tools and use them, but why are they needed if the OS is just crippled?

And remove the hard coded limit to kill all shadow copies older than seven days in Windows non-server.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: Access from bootable USB stick with updates Windows RE?

So how do you update that boot-WinRE... Yes I know how, but MS should do that when creating the recovery stick, so does it? Anybody dare to test?

There are many things MS should do, #1 being LEARN TO FRICKING CODE! so Win11 udates don't break so much. But I don't think WinRE actually does anything useful, at least not in my limited experience. I'm not a Windows sysadmn though, and they have my sympathies.

So Experiment #2 said her Win11 box gets really slow and keeps hanging. Ah, IT support. Culprit seems to be Windows Modules Installer Worker err.. not working, just sitting there, spinning it's wheels and hogging all the resources. So by the power of Google, I discover that's part of the doom-loop that is Windows Update and break things. So looking at Windows Update, it tells me.. well, it did tell me service pack had failed with an error 0x800.. something. Yey. Helpful.

So I looked that up, and it basically told me it was to do with a corrupted system update. Then after turning off automatic updates for a week rather than trying (and succeeding) at failing to install the same update EVERY FRICKING DAY! The Win update view promptly deleted the list of failed updates, and being me, I didn't right down the error code.

But it's done this before, and I've been through the recommended WinRe loop before, and it's failed to restore, so I've assumed a drive failure, replaced the drive and reinstalled Win11 for her. But I'm starting to have doubts after the 3rd time I've had to do this. But part of that process was to create a recovery stick, so in theory, it should have been faster. It isn't, because the recovery doesn't work. Which seems to be SOP for MS. When in doubt, just reinstall everything and hope for a few more months before it does it again. Usually the next time MS pushes a big update.

But simple soul that I am..

1) Provide human friendly error messages giving a hint as to what went wrong. Not cryptic error codes that we can't even click on to take us to a KB article that makes sense to a typical Win11 user.

2) Why is there corruption? Isn't the reason Win11 eats drives is because it's constantly looking for and fixing errors?

3) If the update that's been downloaded has become corrupted, why aren't checksums used to detect and fix this, before trying to update? I've become used to DISM(al) and SFC (Stupid F'ng Computer), which are supposed to find & fix system errors, but generally just ends up going 'Nah, reinstall mate'. But crazy idea. Maybe run those first before trying to update?

4) Win11 likes to randomly put things into 'efficiency mode' to limit the resources used by the process. If it would actually do this for Windows Update, then Experiment #2 could actually use her computer instead of waiting on MS.

But here endeth my rant for the day. It's strange that Steam's game updates I don't think have ever failed, yet Microsofts fail all the fricking time. Why is it that game developers can manage patches, yet MS seems unwilling or unable to fix their system? I hate to think how much time this wastes businesses, governments and consumers with MS trying to push bloated cumulative updates instead of smaller updates that are actually tested. But then bloated, buggy code pretty much defines MS. Oh for a government (or even lawyer) that could force MS into compliance by fining them for all the time, money and energy wasted.

I don't want Copilot, I just want a reliable update system!

[BPontius]

Re: Access from bootable USB stick with updates Windows RE?

Running Windows 11 25H2 and do not have problems with updates. I have two minor issues with the file explorer flashing and incorrect readings in Task Manager, but nothing that has affected Windows 11 usability. Rarely have I had issues in the 31 years of Microsoft providing updates, so it is not Microsoft's coding!!

The possible number of hardware components, firmware, BIOS, drivers, software...etc. combinations in modern PCs is nearly infinite, more than the number of stars in the observable Universe. Impossible for Microsoft to test so many!! There are multiple versions of Windows in an ISO, your activation key provides only a small piece of the puzzle. A Windows Home install will be vastly different to a Pro, Education, Copilot Plus, or IoT. There are numerous possible combinations in an Windows 11 Enterprise install depending on their infrastructure...etc., the hardware drivers combinations alone are to many to count.

Force Microsoft into compliance with what? The PC industry has never had one unifying standard, it has always been a hodgepodge, for the first 40 years it was Microsoft, IBM and Apple defining PC "standards" and you can see how unified it all is. In essence Microsoft already defines much of the PC industry standard(s). Their Government Anti-Trust lawsuit was pretty much a sham, they are still up to the shady practices they were before.

I have used DISM and SFC to repair the system and they DO work (run DISM /restorehealth first then SFC), also a recovery disc does help restore a system, from personal experience. Look to see if some of her startup programs can be disabled, run Disk Cleanup to remove driver, update and cache files. Update drivers from manufactures websites (motherboard, networking, sound...etc), investigate if she needs a BIOS update. Just some of the possible solutions to what you describe. I know how frustrating it can be, not trying to trivialize your situation.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: Access from bootable USB stick with updates Windows RE?

Rarely have I had issues in the 31 years of Microsoft providing updates, so it is not Microsoft's coding!!

Oh yes it is! Admittedly I'm a small sample size and only have to herd around 6 copies of Win11. When it works, it's tolerable. When it stops working, the recovery tools seem pretty useless.

The possible number of hardware components, firmware, BIOS, drivers, software...etc. combinations in modern PCs is nearly infinite, more than the number of stars in the observable Universe. Impossible for Microsoft to test so many!!

Sure, but the issue I find is that it can't seem to manage basic disk/file IO and the update process in general. So how come this PC gets into a state where the OS thinks the install is corrupt, and why it seems unable to fix it other than a complete reinstall. Update shouldn't get into a doom loop of repeating the same process and expecting a different result. Especially when that update process wants to hog the system and prevent or crash other applications. It should just run in the background, and if it fails, provide some meaningful information.

Force Microsoft into compliance with what?

Providing a functional, bare bones OS that doesn't try to bundle cruft that I, and probably many other users don't want. So a lot of the latest updates seem to be around Copilot and AI, which is something I don't want running. So my dream would be a Win11Eco that saves gigawatts of energy by not installing and running apps & then processes that aren't ever used. So my favourite examples were my attempts to terminate with extreme prejudice processes like Xbox and 'My Phone'. We don't have an Xbox, we don't use Win11 phone stuff, Teams, Office360 despite MS's best efforts to upsell us on those. If those services are declined, the OS shouldn't be running processes supporting them. But El Reg has regular horror stories of the stuff that gets broken every Patch Tuesday, which should be happening.

Just some of the possible solutions to what you describe. I know how frustrating it can be, not trying to trivialize your situation.

Thanks. Done all those, and things like driver updates is something that Update does usually manage, ie things like Intel or Nvidia updates just happen, rather than having to remember to check vendor websites for updates. But also wondering if it might be the EFI partition. That's only 100MB and ISTR one update breaking if the EFI partition was too small. But then MS was supposed to have fixed their update to check the EFI partition and expand that, if necessary.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Access from bootable USB stick with updates Windows RE?

Why not summarise all of the above in a single question:

How come Linux manages most of the time? It's not like that platform has more resources to throw at a problem than Microsoft, so what gives?

Oh, ALL of the funding for resources now goes to shareholders? Well, let them reap what they sow.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: Access from bootable USB stick with updates Windows RE?

How come Linux manages most of the time? It's not like that platform has more resources to throw at a problem than Microsoft, so what gives?

I think maybe it does, ie Linux covers many flavors with many developers contributing to the code base. Or contributing by reviewing and optimising that code base. Which is also why I'm puzzled why Win11 makes updating so hard. If it works, great. When it doesn't, it's an exercise in frustration figuring out why, eg cryptic error code that we can't even click on.

But a long time ago (in a galaxy far away) I was at Uni doing a degree that had a focus on safety critical and high availability systems. One of the assignments was to write an OS using assembler. Lecturers explained important things like Reagan's 'trust but verify', so write to memory or disk, then verify the write was successful. Which may be the Windows flaw, ie the safe approach requires a write/readback/verification step. Perhaps MS assumes that all writes will be successful, and in the best 'move fast and break things', we never find out if a write was successful until something needs to read that data again.

Oh, ALL of the funding for resources now goes to shareholders? Well, let them reap what they sow.

I suspect it's more likely that funding & resources are applied to developing FOTM services like AI & cloudybollocks, especially as MS moved to a 'free' OS, with all the $10/month or $10/GB. And less resources applied to creating a lean, mean, reliable core OS. No idea when Win12 might be appearing, but jumping to a Linux system is becoming ever more tempting, especially as more apps are appearing for that OS.

(Then again, Mozilla and Firefox can be just as bad. I know when there's a FF update because the browser becomes increasingly unresponsive. So shut it down, restart it, and lo, there's an update.)

[Jou (Mxyzptlk)]

Re: Access from bootable USB stick with updates Windows RE?

> How come Linux manages most of the time?

"Most" is the important part. Windows (before 11) hab about the same level of "most". Including weird disasters you cannot get out, easier to go fresh. W11 is a different story, why so many run away screaming.

[Jou (Mxyzptlk)]

Re: Access from bootable USB stick with updates Windows RE?

Ouw Gaaaawd, I triggered such an lengthy useless rant about a Windows where someone probably forced-off during update or similar critical process. Windows updates shooting in their own foot happens, but it is rare and known which KBs did that. From hundreds of cases similar to yours I had about two self nukers in Windows 11, the rest were user induced - sometimes ten updates (aka ten month) ago, but manifesting "now" sind "now" a specific component needed update which was broken ten month ago with a forced power-off or similar abuse.

[Fido]

What is a Shadow Copy?

My understanding is a BTRFS or ZFS snapshot allows rolling back Linux to the exact state when the snapshot was taken. This is done only through COW semantics with no additional support from the OS needed.

Is a Microsoft shadow copy the same as a COW snapshot? It sounds similar, but the policy of deleting shadow copies when storage gets low sounds different.

[Jou (Mxyzptlk)]

Re: What is a Shadow Copy?

It is a "New writes to actual file happen to unused clusters, clusters to overwrite get linked into shadowcopy storage". See those "\System Volume Information\{????????-????-????-????-????????????}{3808876b-c176-4e48-b7ae-04046e6cc752}" files. So, it looks like "COW", but it isn't. However, none of those "COW" implementations actually COPY the old data somewhere else, they all use that link technique - else you'd create way too many useless read-writes.

So whatever you mount, even if the OS below it does not support shadow copy, the OS will see non-corrupt data. You could even delete those shadowcopy files in "\System Volume Information", and your data survives. Don't run chkdsk (or similar) from the older OS though. If it is not VSS aware it might actually kill your data.

BTW:

> BTRFS or ZFS snapshot ... only through COW semantics with no additional support from the OS needed.

Huh? The OS is doing it on the background, since the filesystem IS part of the OS. You probably mean "no additional support from the APPLICATIONS needed". Just like it is with MS-Shadowcopy.

[Jimjam3]

Can it roll back to a secure Windows 7 OS?

[Jou (Mxyzptlk)]

No and no.

1. "roll back to Windows 7" no, that got cleaned up 30 days after you upgraded to Windows 8.0 fourteen years ago.

2. "secure Windows 7" no, there is no "secure Windows 7".

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no secure Windows. Full stop.

[Tim Chuma]

What my website could do 20 years ago then?

I can do a similar thing on my website control panel. I often solve the problem by just rolling back and not doing the thing that broke something. My tech support is 11hrs behind being on GMT and I am in Australia.

[Jou (Mxyzptlk)]

Re: What my website could do 20 years ago then?

Server 2003 and Windows XP could do that over 20 years ago as well. The difference, from the article, is that this rollback functionality got added to the emergency boot recovery environment. Whatever method your website uses in the background, it is different from the main point the article is about.

[Groo The Wanderer - A Canuck]

Sure I believe them. After all, they only bragged about their snapshots 10-12 years ago when Windows 11 was first released.

What I hear them saying is that either they lied about the capability then, or they're lying about it now, but they can't claim credit for doing the same thing twice, even if they did screw up their first attempt at it.

[Jou (Mxyzptlk)]

You live in a strange time stretch. Windows 11 was released five years ago. Snapshots came with Server 2003 and XP SP1, + an update for Windows 2000 to access those from a client machine over the network.

[Groo The Wanderer - A Canuck]

Is that all? It seemed like an eternity of suffering the slings and arrows of unwanted Artificial Ignorance before I took my final leap into the welcoming arms of Debian 13 with a Mate desktop (viva la Gnome 2!)

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows updates….

A bit like being Michael Collins going solo around the dark side of the Moon.

[BPontius]

Turn on System Protection

Turn on System Protection and Windows Updates will automatically create a restore point before updating. You can manually create restore points, some drivers and software also create one before installing. The Point-In-Time restore seems to be a duplicate of system restore IMO.

[Jou (Mxyzptlk)]

Re: Turn on System Protection

Not a duplicate, actually making use of what has been in Windows for ~23 years now.

[Miko]

72 hours you say? Sod's law would indicate that the next breaking Windows update will surely get pushed at end of working day, right before a three day weekend.

The Americans will of course blame the ensuing debacle on the concept of three day weekends and push to abolish any remaining ones.

[Excused Boots]

“....three day weekends and push to abolish any remaining ones.”

Or indeed the concept of a weekend at all!

[SamanthaFA]

it would help if they hadn't removed ntbackup.exe from Wn10 - and I'm guessing Win11 too? (no personal experience of the latter, and I'm planning on keeping it that way!)

one of the most fundamentally important and useful system tools...and where did that go? or more pertinently I guess - WHY did it go?!?

(at least I managed to crowbar SyncToy back into my Win10 machine for data backups....)

[Carnotaurus]

Doesn't matter how many improvements Microsoft makes to Windows. Most Reg users are into the penguins, so they will not view said improvements with a neutral attitude.

Running a Windows box here since 3.1 and almost every version since then, and no plans to change that.

Let the downvotes and dumb replies begin.