Gothenburg's self-driving bus trammed on day one

A new self-driving bus service in the Swedish city of Gothenburg got off to a rough start this week when one of its vehicles was hit by a tram on its second passenger-carrying trip. The autonomous bus, running on route 169 between Gothenburg Central Station and Liseberg, opened to passengers on May 25. It was struck from behind …

[Bebu sa Ware]

Eyes saw Gothenburg

brain said Gotham City.

Although to be fair if the Swedes cannot get autonomous self driving to work usefuly and safely I don't imagine anyone could.

[Homo.Sapien.Floridanus]

Re: Eyes saw Gothenburg

Tourist: Is this bus safe?

Bus Bot: Oh, yah sure!

[Paul Herber]

Re: Eyes saw Gothenburg

The bus is perfectly safe, it's the passengers who might have a problem!

[that one in the corner]

Re: Eyes saw Gothenburg

> brain said Gotham City

So that would be the one time we're *not* boasting the OS is Penguin Powered!

[nijam]

Self-driving buses (or self-driving anythings) and trams -- two things we don't want on our roads.

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

What about a self-driving tram?

At least you have a reasonable idea where they are going to be on the road

[nobody who matters]

"What about a self-driving tram?

At least you have a reasonable idea where they are going to be on the road"

Yes - in my fucking way!

[nobody who matters]

Some people appear to have no sense of humour :(

[Dan 55]

Self-driving truck?

Self-driving lorry?

(Both Swedish.)

[John Robson]

I assume you're also going to suggest no human driven ton+ vehicles, those are seriously dangerous.

[CrazyOldCatMan]

trams -- two things we don't want on our roads

What's this 'we' business? Trams are great - as a passenger anyway!

However, if you are on a motorbike or pushbike and don't cross the rails at the right angle of incidence it's a bit different.. it can lead to either falling off your bike when the steering jerks sideways or involuntarily following the tram rails until you manage to wrest control away from the Lines of Doom.

[Brewster's Angle Grinder]

It's a new version of the trolley problem: do you want to front end something, or be rear ended by something...?

[Ramlen]

Gothenburg has such a good tram system, including a special centre to Liseburg one that I don't see the point of trying this

[ICL1900-G3]

Absolutely. I moved there in 76, taking my car with me. After a couple of weeks, I realised the car was more a hindrance than a help, brought it back to the UK and sold it. The trams were brilliant, cheap and reliable, though not hugely comfortable.

[tony72]

Best case?

A bus service should be a best-case application for autonomous driving, you would think, since it's running a predictable route, so not too impressive. Apparently these busses are running a software stack called Flowride.ai from ADASTEC, which I haven't heard of. From what I can see, it sounds like they use heavily pre-mapped routes, stops and signals etc, so interactions with the trams ought to have been foreseeable. I guess we'll have to wait for the accident report to find out what went wrong.

[ecofeco]

Was it lidar, sonar, radar or vision?

The first three on that list are proven technologies. The last, one vision, not so much.

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: Was it lidar, sonar, radar or vision?

The Cambrian disagrees

[David 132]

Re: Was it lidar, sonar, radar or vision?

I see your point.

[Gashead]

Self-Steering Bicycle

Back in 1980 I used to cycle to work in Gothenburg. One day I was cycling towards the office. Unfortunately a tram line my front wheel entered took a right turn. The lines were surrounded by cobbles and I ended up on the ground with a very sore shoulder.

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: Self-Steering Bicycle

We need to work on wireless trams that don't rely on hard-railed networks

[itscomplicated]

Re: Self-Steering Bicycle

That’s impossible!

[I could be a dog really]

Re: Self-Steering Bicycle

I think (apart from the wireless bit) you are thinking of is the trolleybus. No rails in the ground, but still uses overhead wires (in pairs). Has the advantage of being able to manoeuvre round some obstacles - and I believe some had batteries so could pull the pickups down and drive off-route if needed.

[LybsterRoy]

Re: Self-Steering Bicycle

I remember those in my native city of Kingston upon Hull. They were great. Quiet and not to fast so if you just missed one at the stop you could (being fit in those long ago days) chase it and catch it. They also had the benefit of the overhead lines providing electricity for the Xmas lights.

[Potty Professor]

Trolleybuses (beware, boring if you're not into buses)

I grew up in east London in the late 50s and early 60s, and lived very close to a trolleybus route (693, along Ilford High Road A118 and down Ilford lane to Barking). In fact I used to catch it to go to school until they discontinued them. The sound they made is very distinctive, the overhead wires used to twang as the collecting wheels ran along them. If you take a Slinky Spring (remember them?) and slide a piece of cardboard between two of its coils, the sound it makes as you shake it is extremely evocative and takes me back to my childhood. You could always tell if one was coming along because of the sound emanating from above. In the early 60s London Transport stopped running trolleybuses and demolished all of the overhead structures. I used to go on my bicycle to watch the poles being removed, they first cut them off about two feet from the ground and put them on a Pole Carrier truck, then they lowered a multi-piston hydraulic ram into the below ground part and expanded it to crack the concrete. This was repeated at 90 degrees to the first expansion, and the remaining six or so feet of the pole lifted out. Most of the Trolleybus routes were numbered in the 600 range, and the Routemaster fleet replacement routes were the same but in the 200 range. Thus the 638 I used to catch later became the 238 (Barking Station to Little Heath) in about 1961. I can remember seeing a whole fleet of brand new Routemasters parked up outside Barking Bus Depot (Code BK) as I went past on the 638 in 1959. The Routemasters slowly disappeared into the garage itself as they were placed into revenue service to replace BK's fleet of RTs (Regent Threes).

[I could be a dog really]

Re: Self-Steering Bicycle

My late father used to tell of his early days as a sparky working in and around Nottingham - where he met my late mother (no, neither were late when they met before some smart**se picks up on that.)

Working in the substation, he said you could tell when one was going up Corporation Hill as the ammeter would rise significantly. When they got replaced with diesel, that was replaced with clouds of black smoke.

Another tale he told was of how the buildings were all black with grime. When a new building went up (a bank IIRC) they coloured the concrete so it wouldn't stick out. years later, there was a big cleanup campaign, and the other buildings came up all bright and clean - so this one building stood out with it's black concrete.

[Fred Daggy]

Re: Self-Steering Bicycle

Modern ones have a motor that mean they run for many kms without wires. Useful if the wires cover serveral routes and then branch off (as just one example).

Unlike a Hybrid (car), the motor weight is less significant for the trolleybus (still not zero, though). I've not paid any attention if they are conventionally powered, or diesel-electric.

[David Hicklin]

Re: Self-Steering Bicycle

> I think (apart from the wireless bit) you are thinking of is the trolleybus

We had those in Derby when I was very young , route 22 if I remember. When it reached the terminus on the Estate it would go round an island to change direction, and then when stopped the crew would use a long wood pole to move the pickup between the incoming and outgoing wires (I guess they may have had swopped polarity)

Then they ripped it all out for the early buses which were either London red bus (but in cream colours) style or the first generation diesel jobs.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Self-Steering Bicycle

> a tram line my front wheel entered

ITYM a tram line I steered my front wheel into

[John Robson]

Re: Self-Steering Bicycle

To be fair tram lines are often hard not to get caught in - anything less than a ~30 degree angle can easily drag the wheel down into the track and then you have no steering and no capacity to balance.

[Sampler]

Re: Self-Steering Bicycle

I moved from Sydney to Melbourne in 2019 and everyone banged on about how much more "cyclable" the city was in comparison - stacked it on a junction as I was watching the traffic not the intersecting tram lines (they went both left and right in a straight line, but had splits to also turn down the road I was exiting in a T junction, so bit of a mess all over the road).

Also, having cycled in Sydney far more than Melbourne (left in 2020, timed that just right), it remains the only place I've seen a cyclist hit; one guy coming out a side street and t-boned a guy in the cycle lane ahead of me almost as if he had his eyes shut given the day lights and dayglo clothing the dude was wearing, another stationary at the lights (again, day lights, dayglo clothing).

Think what they really mean by "cyclable" is Melbourne is a lot flatter, if you've got thighs, Sydney's alright, the tradies just threaten to hit you, rather than actually take you out..

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: Self-Steering Bicycle

> he had his eyes shut given the day lights and dayglo clothing the dude was wearing,

I believe there is some optical coating on Range Rover windscreens that blocks fluorescent biking gear

[gryphon]

Re: Self-Steering Bicycle

Melbourne's hook turns are 'interesting' to say the least for the inexperienced.

[itscomplicated]

Tram operator doesn’t like the idea of his job being taken by a robot, rear ends autonomous bus, which everyone will blame?

[I ain't Spartacus]

The Brussels tram drivers were a militant lot. Local joke was that they didn't earn as much as the taxi drivers, so had made it a solemn undertaking to crush all taxis under their iron wheels instead. So they're no strangers to taking out the opposition.

[Potty Professor]

Brussels trams

My late wife once gave me a Birthday Present of a long weekend in Brussels. We had a marvellous time seeing all the sights and riding around the city on the excellent tram network. Unfortunately, we came across an accident which meant we had to alight from our tram and walk past another stationary tram to get to another mobile tram to continue our journey. The reason the stationary tram was stationary was that there was a dead pedestrian trapped underneath it, she had been dragged along over the cobbles, which had acted as a sort of meat grater and left a bloody trail of flesh between the rails. This upset many of the passengers, including my wife. Luckily this was on our last day in the city, so she would never have to ride a tram again.

[DrewPH]

"...to better understand what happened as soon as possible."

What happened is that you did something stupid that nobody wants - you put an autonomous vehicle on public roads.

[I ain't Spartacus]

Does anyone remember the autonomous shuttle buses from the Tokyo Olympics? They seem to have worked reasonably well for the games. But then had to be suspended - and then heavily managed - including staff on the ground around them - for the Paralympics. Even injuring one of the Japanese competitors in the Olympic village. Who'd have thought that deploying automatic wheeled vehicles around a massive number of people with reduced mobility and sensory impairments could go horribly wrong?

[[e-mail]]

How can driverless vehicle be legal?

Obviously no autonomous vehicle could ever pass a driver's license test, so how can they legally in on the streets without humans supervising?

The software is never going to be nearly as good as a human driver, so they should never be allowed. Computer vision is vastly too slow to be practical over 20 mph.

Any time a vehicle is seen without a human driver, is should be forced off the road. There is no way they could possibly be legal.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: How can driverless vehicle be legal?

All They have to do is change the law.

PS

Sane autonomous vehicles use RADAR and LIDAR - both fast and accurate at way over 20mph. Even CV tasks can run at faster framerates than humans. The problems are in the later stages: having spotted the flooded street, deciding to drive into it anyway.

[vtcodger]

Re: How can driverless vehicle be legal?

Autonomous driving is turning out to be a MUCH more difficult problem than any of us thought it would be. But it is slowly being handled. In the very long run, I imagine it will make life simpler for the elderly, the handicapped, and society in general. But there are so many edge cases.

I'm not surprised that Waymo has trouble with flooded roads. It's remarkably difficult to tell visibly whether water on the road is 2in (5cm) or 20in (50cm) deep. Humans routinely have trouble with that. It'll be interesting to see what the technical fix, if any, for that is.

[John Robson]

Re: How can driverless vehicle be legal?

Low speed is the only fix available in the majority of cases.

You do sort of have to reply on their not being a sinkhole, or other sudden drop, but slow speed at least allows you to ford a reasonable depth puddle, whilst retaining the option to back out.

[CrazyOldCatMan]

Re: How can driverless vehicle be legal?

It's remarkably difficult to tell visibly whether water on the road is 2in (5cm) or 20in (50cm) deep

As my nephew discovered when he drove his diesel car into what he thought was a large elongated but shallow puddle in the road, only to discover that the road dipped significantly in the middle of the puddle..

Apparently, diesel engines get very unhappy when water is sucked into them. He essentially had to replace the whole engine block (two snapped piston shafts, cracked crankshaft plus various other issues that meant it was cheaper to just fit a new block rather than repairing the innards.

[David Hicklin]

Re: How can driverless vehicle be legal?

As always the first 80% is easy - the remaining 20% is what will stall self driving vehicles.

As a driver of over 45 years I doubt I could ever trust one of them, and if (as with the current lot) you have to be ready to take over if they crap out then you might as well drive yourself.

[John Robson]

Re: How can driverless vehicle be legal?

As a driver of only slightly less vintage... I can see them being Goode enough for most driving pretty soon.

Certainly good enough for the mundane stuff (like motorways) without even basic supervision required - but also good enough for much of the rest.

Watching some of the people who demonstrate what Telsa are doing at the moment is really quite interesting. There are some serious weaknesses with the configuration (like no ability to have the thing obey speed limits, or even some user chosen offset), but the actual driving capabilities are seriously impressive - I'd suggest they're already ahead of many human motorists.

[StewartWhite]

Re: How can driverless vehicle be legal?

Because $

[John Robson]

Re: How can driverless vehicle be legal?

"Obviously no autonomous vehicle could ever pass a driver's license test,"

Really? Is it obvious. I would suggest that's not merely not obviously true, I'd assert it's obviously false.

[I ain't Spartacus]

Re: How can driverless vehicle be legal?

I'd expect a Waymo car to be able to pass a driving test now. They've probably been able to do that in the countries they operate in for years. Not sure how it would fill out the theory test multiple choice question paper though...

The problem isn't doing the basics. The problem is coping with the unexpected and the weird.

[CrazyOldCatMan]

Re: How can driverless vehicle be legal?

Not sure how it would fill out the theory test multiple choice question paper though...

Wots one of them then? Didn't exist back in 1982..

(Yes, we got asked about the Highway Cod but we knew that the examiners had a list of sections that they tended to ask questions about and swotted up on those. My driving instructor 'strongly suggested' which areas to memorise..)

[I ain't Spartacus]

Re: How can driverless vehicle be legal?

1982? Youngling! If you were but 5 years older (and also Belgian), then there was no driving test. You simply had to submit a signed document to state you knew how to drive, Dad taught me, honest! And that was you done. When I lived there in 2000, I'm not quite sure why they bothered... Although, saying that, I've seen things in Italy that even Belgian drivers wouldn't do. And I've heard stories and seen video from India and Russia.

[David Hicklin]

Re: How can driverless vehicle be legal?

> The problem isn't doing the basics. The problem is coping with the unexpected and the weird.

As my driving instructor told me after I had passed my test - NOW you start learning how to drive.

[Anonymous Coward]

Melbourne Trams

No prisoners taken

No fucks given

Ding!DingDing!Ding!

[VerySlowData]

Re: Melbourne Trams

maybe one day car/truck drivers will read the stop signs that come out from the sides of Melbourne trams and stop!!! regularly I hear the ding-ding-ding of the tram driver as oblivious car drivers sail past while the alighting passengers take their lives in their hands to reach the side of the road (Racecourse Rd in Flemington)

grrr bah snarf...

[goblinski]

"...As a rule of thumb, trams tend to have the right of way ..."

As a rule of thumb, hitting cars trying to make a turn and crossing the tracks was the favorite sport of the tram drivers in my neck of the woods.

Beautiful low speed, high momentum hits where the cars would typically get t-boned and then dragged, with full 110% impunity because no matter what the tram had right of way and stopping on the tracks was prohibited in all cases.

Waiting times to buy a new car were in the decades back then, so having your car totaled was an exciting experience. Ah, those were the times...