Civil servants to protest outside Capita AGM over pension shambles

Capita's annual general meeting next week is set to come with an unexpected item on the agenda: angry civil servants protesting over missing pensions, broken systems, and a data breach affecting pension scheme members. Members of the Public and Commercial Services (PCS) union will gather outside Capita's AGM at Sheldon Square, …

[MrGrumpy]

Crapita

It amazes me they still win contracts. Utter shit show.

[elsergiovolador]

Re: Crapita

This looks like firemen protesting nobody is putting fires out.

Comical.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Crapita

They should be #1 to be served a Debarment Prohibition Notice under the new Procurement Act.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/procurement-act-2023-guidance-documents-procure-phase/guidance-debarment-html

[Lazlo Woodbine]

Re: Crapita

Catita's complaints department now covers all the major land masses of the first three planets in the Sirius Tau Star system...

[Aladdin Sane]

Re: Crapita

Share and enjoy

[sal II]

Re: Crapita

Nothing to be amazed by. All of their "competitors" are equally crap. So the main differentiating factor is who buys the decision makers the fanciest dinner.

[CrazyOldCatMan]

Re: Crapita

It amazes me they still win contracts. Utter shit show

It's because Government G-Cloud procurement rules don't allow previous performance to be taken into account..

[lglethal]

"unexpected case complexity"

Ahhh you mean you bid without looking at the actual use case, nor discussed with the existing users and operators about what the system needed to do. You just assumed it would be easy peasy and bid appropriately...

Doesnt say much for the purchasing team either, that they didnt check that the bidders were aware about the potential for "case complexity", when deciding their contract. But then again, that is par for the course in Government...

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "unexpected case complexity"

Exactly.

You can be certain that there was someone who predicted these issues, someone who was roundly ignored.

[Tim99]

Re: "unexpected case complexity"

Or they were identified by the tenderer, and offered a job with a lot more money and perks than normally unavailable to a subordinate of a "humble functionary".

[steviesteveo]

Re: "unexpected case complexity"

Everyone always says that capita's real skill is producing fantastic tender responses that hit the points better than any smaller company possibly could

It's amazing all that paperwork doesn't even accidentally include understanding the product

[elsergiovolador]

Re: "unexpected case complexity"

I think this tells us more about civil servants who accept this shite. Now they got a taste of their own medicine and suddenly it is a problem. Where is my tiny violin.

[bitwise]

Re: "unexpected case complexity"

Funny you think they got a choice and the decision wasn't made way about the paygrade of those affected.

Villifying other workers who do a job sure is a decision.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "unexpected case complexity"

> Most of us had zero choice. Blame the Cabinet Office if you must be an arsehole but leave the rest of us out of it.

[Acrimonius]

Re: "unexpected case complexity"

Proabably said to HMRC that we will take care of the backlog don't worry but privately knew that they would just be able to declare force majeure - all inherited and beyond their control

[FirstTangoInParis]

Re: "unexpected case complexity"

Not sure how it works with DWP but usually bidders are forbidden to talk to anyone apart from the bid project office. Any domain knowledge would have to come before that period, and you get judged on answering the RFP. If the RFP is wrong (has been known) then you still have to answer it, and negotiate if your bid is called forwards. Any changes from scope are costed.

But the management on contract is abysmal. Going live with a Minimum Viable Product is one thing but saying it’s all fine is quite another.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "unexpected case complexity"

There were tens of thousands of cases handed over at cut-over time. Speaks volumes. They just made it a whole lot worse.

[davefb]

Re: "unexpected case complexity"

No, the 'company' losing the contract stopped working on complex cases and reduced service level. Its weird that its never mentioned that the whole reason for the process was because the incumbents were failing.

[MGJ]

Re: "unexpected case complexity"

Capita were the incumbents up until just over 10 years ago. They lost then because they were poor

[CrazyOldCatMan]

Re: "unexpected case complexity"

You just assumed it would be easy peasy and bid appropriately...

They followed the usual Crapita outsourcer playbook of "bid low then make up the value by charging the customer for everything else actually needed to deliver the contract through the nose"

Been there, experienced that from the end of the "utterly screwed"

[Guy de Loimbard]

FFS......

Is there a weighting applied to government contract awards?

The more shite you are the more likely to win another contract.

Reminds me of the Blackadder goes forth episode where General Melchett is explaining the cunning plan to do exactly the same as the last time! -->

Melchett:

Field Marshal Haig has formulated a brilliant new tactical plan to ensure final victory in the field.

Blackadder:

Ah. Would this brilliant plan involve us climbing out of our trenches and walking very slowly towards the enemy?

Captain Darling:

How could you possibly know that, Blackadder? It's classified information!

Blackadder:

It's the same plan that we used last time and the seventeen times before that.

Melchett:

Exactly! And that is what is so brilliant about it! It will catch the watchful Hun totally off guard! Doing precisely what we've done eighteen times before is exactly the last thing they'll expect us to do this time! There is, however, one small problem.

Blackadder:

That everyone always gets slaughtered in the first ten seconds.

Enter into the arena, Capita et al!!

Do we really think throwing them another bone to see if "this time, they may just get it right".

I wonder how many ministers, past and present, have some sort of vested interest in Capita?

[nobody who matters]

Re: FFS......

"I wonder how many ministers, past and present, have some sort of vested interest in Capita?"

Ministers very rarely have any real practical knowledge or understanding of their brief, so rely heavily on the advice of the senior civil servants within their department, so I think you probably have to include them in your question too.

[cookiecutter]

very hard to have sympathy

Yes capita are shit & no they shouldn't have got the job BUT id civil servants that foist capitalism & other shite outsourcers on the rest of us. it's civil servants that put the rules in that make it easy for these firms to beat better SMEs for tenders.

it's civil servants that make tendering for govt contracts such s nightmare that you have to have dedicated departments to do it & it's civil servants that do things like the loancharge & hmrc making thr decision to charge taxes on the "loans" but then blocking attempts to classify them legally as not loans just out of sheer vindictiveness....

so screw em!!! welcome to the real world

[Paul Dx]

Re: very hard to have sympathy

Civil Servants only do as told by the Government or Parliament.

Do you also blame the workers of a company that goes bust even though it's the bosses who made the decisions ?

[cookiecutter]

Re: very hard to have sympathy

i'm tired of that excuse. every time. "oh sorry we HAD to put in a fraudulent vip fast lane". "oh sorry we HAVE to vilify innocent people for 20 years".

we know politicos do what they're told, and we know that senior civil servants are all fishing for directorships hence the secret meetings with water company bosses.

if the bank of england can put in excellent tendering procedures, there's no reason other departments can't. setting up tendering in a way is 100% done by civil servants who would rather rehire capita or infosys or wipro than small or medium british firms.

I was chatting to a capita guy & he said "we could literally put in 500 blank pages with a cover page & a signature page.As long as the price is the lowest we'll win"

As to loan charge, yes Govt changed the law but it was civil servants that decided to back date it 20 years. it is civil servants that are chasing people to suicide & it's civil servants that let scheme operators not only get away with lying & keeping the money but ACTIVELY BLOCKING the attempt to mark the loans as no longer loans so that those same scheme operators can come after us for "loan repayments" even after paying tax we didn't owe under the threat of losing our homes

[elsergiovolador]

Re: very hard to have sympathy

> contracted in because gov departments either cannot afford, or are just not allowed, to hire experts in many fields.

And precisely zero civil servants done as much as raising an eyebrow, let alone blow the whistle. This setup is too neat.

Then government of course comes back every now and then wheeling out Chancellor of the day to raise taxes because they already pissed the money up the wall (I mean someone's yachts).

Zero talk about spending. Just give those big corporations direct access to Treasury bank accounts and stop the theatre.

[FirstTangoInParis]

Re: very hard to have sympathy

> contracted in because gov departments either cannot afford, or are just not allowed, to hire experts in many fields.

Don’t know current situation but some years back civil servants were paid half what you’d get in private industry for a comparable role. So they have to hire specialists in.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: very hard to have sympathy

Don't see why previous contracts are not taken into consideration and allow the consultancy to sue.

Oh. I see you have a criminal record for repeated theft.... And you want a job as a teller in this bank.

I don't care how you say you've turned a new leaf, found a religion or whatever, the answer is NO

Oh I see you have ballsed up nearly all previous contracts and want a new one for £500m. You'll do better this time even if the evidence says different. When do you plan to start, then overrun by how long, again charging us ? And you say you'll start tomorrow

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: very hard to have sympathy

"Civil Servants only do as told by the Government or Parliament"

The Civil Service is a law unto itself. No government ever really has control over it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: very hard to have sympathy

Civil Servants only do as told by the Government or Parliament.

Ah yes, it isn't my fault, I was only following orders. Lame old excuse.

Competent civil servants would know when to say "No". They seem to be rare.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: very hard to have sympathy

And your experience to say this is what exactly?

I've spent most of my career in the private sector across a good number of large companies, the last few years in the civil service, and I can assure you that levels of compliance with orders, and overall competence don't vary by any material degree between private and public sector. What DOES vary is the calibre of executive leadership and they are the people YOU choose through voting.

I've seen some stonking shit shows in the private sector, as bad as the Civil Service Worst Hits, but those private sector fiascos mostly that don't get widely aired.

[elsergiovolador]

Re: very hard to have sympathy

You don't vote for civil servants.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: very hard to have sympathy

Experience? 40 years in public and private sector. Sure, you find the same crap in poor private companies, but they get pushed out by their competitors. Civil servants get funded by the taxpayer until they retire or die, whether crap or not.

[LucreLout]

Re: very hard to have sympathy

That's not remotely true. They ignore the government when it suits them, like returning to the office or adopting modern working practices etc.

That there's no accountability on the public sector is the primary reason the country is in a mess. Services can't improve if failure isn't recognised, acted upon, and owned.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: very hard to have sympathy

I have no problem with people working from home if they do their job as well, or better that way. The problem, ans anyone who has dealt with government departments recently is only too aware, is that they don't. It's next to impossible to get through on the phone, or get an answer to a letter, and anything which is done takes twice as long. People should be more efficient with that extra 3 hours of non-commute time but it won't help if "working from home" means looking after the kids to save on childcare, doing the ironing so the weekend is free, etc.

Obviously the fault is partly with the managers who don't supervise their staff properly, as well as with the chancers who enjoy "shirk from home" time, but either way it needs to be fixed.

[WSWS]

Re: very hard to have sympathy

Because "run like a FTSE company" means that people who fuck up get fired. Civil Servants can't be fired. You understand the difference now?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: very hard to have sympathy

Really? Because I have been involved in three firings as a Deciding Officer in the last year alone

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: very hard to have sympathy

> Civil Servants can't be fired

Fact very much not in evidence

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: very hard to have sympathy

> BUT id civil servants that foist capitalism & other shite outsourcers on the rest of us

You missed one very important word: "senior"..

[TimMaher]

Palantir

Shouldn’t they have got the contract? Oh, wait…

[ComicalEngineer]

Uncivil servants

Let's make something clear, civil servants includes not only the Home Office and other assorted muppets based in London, but also e.g. DVLA, Passport Service, Land Registry, HSE, Met Office, DEFRA, Prison Service, Coastguard Agency, Food Standards Agency and a couple of dozen other vital functions. A lot of these people are simply doing the best job that they can within the constraints of being a government agency employee.

I totally agree that parts of the Home Office and some of the other functions are a total sh!t show but the majority of prople classified as civil servants don't deserve to be classified with the muppets. Currently one of my best friends is caught up in this. He works for a safety regulator and has done for over 30 years. He has spent over 6 months trying to work out how much pension he will receive and when he will get it. He's currently 67 and wants to retire in the next few months. He hasn't yet managed to log into the website.

Protesting against Crapita is going to resolve absolutely bugger all. If what half of what Crapita say is true then MyCSP was also a total shit show, and indeed my friend's experience bears this out.

As usual Crapita got the job because the quality of the Pre-Qualification Questionnaire ticked more boxes than anyone else. I have alluded to this previously having had 20 years experience of quoting for government contracts only to be told that a large company with a team of 50 people writing these things full time got the job despite being technically inferior to our personnel. The last PQQ I got for an MOD job ran to 31 pages and 157 questions including detailed business continuity plans, company organogram, contractor selection processes, business reporting processes etc etc.

This is the same reason that the other big contractors Asos, Capgemini etc also get the juicy jobs.

Replacing Crapita at this time will just result in another 6-9 months delay, a new website and further opportunity to lose information in the transfer.

[elsergiovolador]

Re: Uncivil servants

There is also NCA, SFO, MI5, SIS, GCHQ. They are all doing brilliant job (if you are shareholder of foreign big corporation).

So many big brains there and none could have figured out that something is wrong.

Big corporations are getting contracts because successive governments worked to eliminate their competition.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Uncivil servants

Your persistent accusations of incompetence, stupidity and corruption against the civil service are rather tiresome, as is your ill informed criticism of the UK's system of government, of regulators, security services, and indeed anybody on the public sector payroll. I suppose at least there's no a party that speaks for you and your "anti-establishment" views, even if it is led by a classic politics lifer, a grifter who breaks the rules, only out for himself. Have you thought about joining? Only £25 a year, complete with a free hagiography of St Nige of Bigotry.

But do keep the criticism up, because I derive some modest satisfaction that you evidently feel so bitter about the matter.

[LucreLout]

Re: Uncivil servants

With the typical departmental tenure measured on about 3 or 4 years, even the most doe hard civil servant would have to admit they have little to no expertise in what they're doing.

The civil service has gone backwards so fast it's now about 40% behind its own 2016 productivity numbers on a per head basis. You can't seriously see that as anything other than incompetence and stupidity, can you? Really?!

[elsergiovolador]

Re: Uncivil servants

Do you mean Comrade Найджел?

[Disgusted of Cheltenham]

Re: Uncivil servants

Not all of those count as civil service.

[Acrimonius]

Civil Servants do NOT follow orders

False to say Civil Servants are just following orders. There may be an overarching policy but this is high level and there are so many ways to implement and much open to interpretation. Yes Minister aptly showed this. Much is twisted to their own agenda, much to maintain their internal status quo, much about staying within familiar boundaries so minimal additional effort and thinking necessary, and much about following rules and processes to suit and not because they are applicable or strict. This starts at the higher levels and flows down to the lowest say grade 7 where nothing is questioned and anyone with a better way either is supressed or it is more than their job's worth. There are clearly process flaws in a many areas but no one is willing to raise this - no incentive to put extra effort in to change matters. They hide behind trying all to ensure taxpayer gets value for money when in practice it is all about just coasting in their jobs. The civil service is now more a mix of old hands and new recruits from industry but this has not made much difference.

[Anonymous Coward]

I quit social media about 3-4 years ago as I was fed up with all of the anger, lies, nonsense and ill-informed bigotry that I saw it was becoming, from what was originally just a nice way to get in touch with people. My life is immeasurably better from not being immersed in all the negativity and bullcrap. I thought I would be safe with this site. Stupid man that I am.... <shakes head>

OK, some life advice: quit social media, stop reading the news, don't believe everything you read and go for a walk. If you feel angry, go and chop some wood or cut a hedge - don't grab a keyboard and rant. You'll feel better. Believe me, life is way too short to be sucked into all this nonsense.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never done social media. My views on the civil service are formed entirely from personal experience as a 'customer'. It used to be good and efficient, now it's inefficient and lazy.

[Acrimonius]

If your posts in Register on all manner of topics is how you quitted social media I can't imagine how prolific you must have been elsewhere

[Anonymous Coward]

See previous advice.

[Tubz]

Here's my crocodile tears, now they know what it feels like to be given sh!t service, like they do to the general public !

[Anonymous Coward]

CRAPITA indeed

Absolute shower of shit this lot. Was employed with them when they took over 12-15 years ago. Bunch of complete incompetent nasty bullies. Good riddance to them! Awful awful awful company.

[StewartWhite]

Re: CRAPITA indeed

100% agree. The Teachers' Pension Scheme that they supposedly administer is just as bad. It's being handed over to those known cybersecurity experts TCS so whilst there might well be an initial improvement in response but Tata will just let the Russians/North Koreans/some PFY in New York have full access to the system shortly afterwards as cybersecurity is clearly a nonsense term as far as they are concerned (JLR, M&S etc.).

Capita literally can't explain where the figures come from in an example I'm all too aware of and after three times of asking, they've come up with three radically different sets of figures with no explanation provided.

Whilst I get that people can't understand why these idiot firms can't do anything right (bar collecting their £££££), the procurement rules normally mean that previous incompetence in a different contract with another part of government/public sector literally cannot be taken into consideration. It's a bit weird IMO that (other than C suite) this rule doesn't apply to us peasants when we're applying for a job, e.g. "Yes, I did set fire to the office on my first day in my previous job and I still think that Javascript is the language they use in an Indonesian province but you can't hold that against me!"

[Phil Parker]

It's a taste of things to come

Since Richard Trice of the Reform government in waiting has said he will take the civil service pension scheme, and hand it to his mates to be invested as a "Sovereign Wealth Fund", I'd say that not being paid isn't going to be a regular feature for any of us with money in the scheme.

[rcx141]

Doesn't anyone else find it richly satisfying that this shower that have spent their careers phoning it in and telling people "computer says no" are now on the receiving end for a change?