Ideas wanted, please add yours below.
What better to waste money on?
I have even seen chocolate teapots on sale in novelty shops, so gotta be more useless than that.
London’s BT Tower to get rooftop swimming pool
Visitors to London’s iconic Telecom Tower might soon be able to go for a rooftop swim, according to plans revealed by the developer turning the building into a hotel. The iconic 177 meter (581 ft) high structure in Fitzrovia in London’s West End was sold off by BT Group in 2024 to US-based hotel owner-operator MCR Hotels for £ …
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Saturday 9th May 2026 14:27 GMT abend0c4
Not an easy building to alter...
The only internal access is via the high-speed lifts. When these were upgraded in the early 2000s, the old lift machinery of each lift had to be cut into small pieces and brought down in the other. Even though the lift cars are oversized (originally in order to allow aerial sections to be moved up and down the tower), swimming pool logistics will be interesting.
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Monday 11th May 2026 10:41 GMT I ain't Spartacus
Re: Not an easy building to alter...
I have one word for that piece from Randall Munroe. Actually, make that two. The first word being Bleurgh!
The second word being evaporation.
To add to the horror - saliva has a certain quality of gloopiness and gumminess which may not be subject to evaporation. I refuse to touch my search engine in order to find out anything more about this - but I'm guessing it's not all water. So instead of 8,000 years for a pool full of swimmable spit - you may have to do 30,000 years for a pool full of some sort of gelatinous gunk, similar but worse (God, is that possible?) than camel spit.
At this point, I put on my water engineering hat (the hat I wear while earning my living), and I start to suggest that you consult various health and safety laws. For example, the responsible person for your Legionella risk assessment is on the hook for possible (probable) manslaughter charges if anyone goes anywhere near this abomination. I'd caution about biofilms, but that's basically what you've just filled your pool with, and after 30,000 years I somehow doubt that it's a present clear, or slightly blue colour any more.
Also, even if you've only been standing in the "water" for 8,000 years - I suggest that your skin may have gone through the pruny and wrinkly stage, and be into an advanced case of necrosis. But presumably your time travelling device is also working wonders on the eternal youth issue - and somehow keeping you alive.
Also, how many woolly mammoths and sabretooth tigers have fallen into your pool and got trapped in it? Olympic pools don't have sloped edges.
I feel the need for a wash now...
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Saturday 9th May 2026 15:13 GMT HAL-9000
Do you remember when...
Despite being 189 meters tall and a major London landmark, the BT Tower was technically an official state secret from its opening in 1965 until 1993. It was not officially included on Ordnance Survey maps, and taking photographs of it was officially discouraged under the Official Secrets Act.
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Saturday 9th May 2026 15:38 GMT smudge
Re: Do you remember when...
...taking photographs of it was officially discouraged under the Official Secrets Act.
Really? I must dig out the old postcard of it that I have somewhere. I used to work in Fitzrovia, and the shops were full of such postcards.
Reason I bought it is that the photograph was taken from the junction of Rathbone Street and Charlotte Place, and consequently included the Duke of York, a fine pub in which I spent many nights and played many darts matches.
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Sunday 10th May 2026 09:59 GMT Great Southern Land
Re: Do you remember when...
And from Duncan Campbell's account of the (in)famous ABC Trial:
"one Sigint unit chief was shown a road sign outside his base:
Q: Is that the name of your unit?
A: I cannot answer that question, that is a secret.
Q: Is that the board which passers-by on the main road see outside your unit’s base?
A: Yes.
Q: Read it out to the jury, please.
A: I cannot do that. It is a secret."
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Monday 11th May 2026 09:47 GMT APro
Re: Do you remember when...
That's the fun part of The Official Secrets Act. Having signed it more times than I care to remember (or have I), it becomes second nature to not acknowledge anything to do with where you work (or have worked), what you do (or have done), or what you've seen (or not seen). All are deemed "secrets" until formally disclosed by the government to the public; however, the minutiae behind the disclosed info can still be considered protected by the Act. If a third party deduces a "secret", it does not give those who have signed the Act free reign to acknowledge the "secret".
I don't know if breaking the oath to follow the Official Secrets Act is still a treasonable offence, but I an't risking it.
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Monday 11th May 2026 11:27 GMT notyetanotherid
Re: Do you remember when...
I once had a [now] amusing job interview where the prospective employer was interested in my experience with embedded systems and I had to answer most of their questions with "I am not at liberty to answer that." Needless to say a job offer was not forthcoming...
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Tuesday 12th May 2026 15:50 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Do you remember when...
I interviewed someone who wasn't able to confirm where he worked, how long he'd worked there, what projects he'd worked on or provide examples of anything he'd achieved, fortunately for him, he was able to demonstrate his abilities had commendations and testimonials that were verifiable but similarly lacking in detail.
I know he wasn't you because we offered him the job and he accepted.
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Monday 11th May 2026 11:34 GMT notyetanotherid
Re: Do you remember when...
Or maybe the one at Hack Green in Cheshire, https://www.hackgreen.co.uk/.
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Saturday 9th May 2026 16:29 GMT Eclectic Man
Re: Do you remember when...
Nah, just get the postage stamps issued by the Royal Mail for the public opening. I went there when I was 5 years old with my sister and grandparents and got a 'presentation pack', probably still got it somewhere.
https://www.collectgbstamps.co.uk/explore/issues/?issue=71
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Sunday 10th May 2026 11:56 GMT Like a badger
Re: Do you remember when...
But not very quickly. Back in the day, all OS mapping was manual, and how often would the master version get updated? And then how quickly would that filter through printing, distribution and sales channels. I suspect most OS map owners have a small collection of maps that are still used and treasured, but missing whole swathes of more recent new developments and roads.
I can't verify, but Londonist.com reckons the tower first appeared on maps in 1971, despite the tower being topped out in 1964.
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Sunday 10th May 2026 12:35 GMT David 132
Re: Do you remember when...
On the same note, one of my most treasured possessions (for its quirkiness, I hasten to add) is a map of "S.W. London und Windsor" printed by the Germans in early 1940 to be handed out to the troops invading the UK as part of the planned Operation Sealion. It of course lacks the M25, M4, Heathrow... but it does have various tourist points of interest on it. And down at the very bottom of the sheet, an acknowledgment that it uses map data "(C) 1926 Ordnance Survey".
I always chuckle at the thought that the one heinous taboo the invaders weren't willing to violate was Copyright Infringement :)
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Sunday 10th May 2026 14:42 GMT Eclectic Man
Re: Do you remember when... re: Copyright
During WW2 the BBC broadcast Beethoven's symphony number 5 quite frequently from an excellent recording. (The opening was alleged to include the morse code of 'V' for victory.) After the war they had to pay royalties to the orchestra which owned the broadcast rights - the Berliner Philharmonic.
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Monday 11th May 2026 11:08 GMT I ain't Spartacus
Re: Do you remember when...
The German plans for Operation Sealion are fascinating. And bonkers. Even by Nazi standards.
When the Army first submitted its invasion plan (notice not consulted the Navy on what was possible first) they decided it was just like a large opposed river crossing - and planned to invade with 40 divisions simultaneously on a front from Dorset to Kent!
On D-Day, the Allies "only" managed to land 9½ divisions over a 50 mile front (plus 3 more by dropped by air), and that was a stretch for both of the largest navies in the world together, with 4 years of landing craft production and two years of planning. The Germans were trying to half-arse it in 3 months with a bunch of commandeered river barges and no landing craft, a mid-sized Navy that'd just taken a severe battering in Norway - and no logistics or way of supplying any troops that did manage to survive the crossing.
In fact, I'm going to downgrade it to quarter-arsing it.
It was all fine anyway. The Kriegsmarine were some combination of amused and appalled. But Goering announced that the Luftwaffe could do it on their own. When asked about Luftwaffe strength, after the battle of France, he simply said it was over 4,500 aircraft (losses meant they were actually down 1,000 planes) - but he hadn't bothered to check. The Germans knew even less about RAF strength than Goering knew about his own air force - so you'll not be surprised to know that it all went a bit wrong. Top tip! Morphine and military planning should ideally be done by different people.
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Monday 11th May 2026 13:39 GMT CrazyOldCatMan
Re: Do you remember when...
The German plans for Operation Sealion are fascinating. And bonkers. Even by Nazi standards.
Yeah - but you have to remember that their plans were designed to be approved by the Austrian Painter. Who had a similar connection to reality as the current Orange stain embedded in the USA White House.
And one of the characteristics of the German pre-WW2 forces is that inter-service co-operation was essentially zero - even worse than the British. And, unlike the British where the Navy was [1] the favoured force and the Army just the muddy grunts who shambled around looking... muddy, in Germany the Army was very much the favoured service [2] and the Navy/Air Force just either the means the Army used to get somewhere or the softening-up force before the army got there.
[1] Makes sense. If your Navy can stop the enemy getting to you, the Army is reduced to just an expeditionary force. And as for that new-fangled airplane..
[2] Again - makes sense. With only a tiny sea border, you mainly need grunts to hold the borders and invade the Sudetenland..
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Monday 11th May 2026 14:09 GMT Eclectic Man
Re: Do you remember when...
In his book, 'The rise and fall of the great powers'*, Paul Kennedy remarks that the German Navy put forward exercise plans one year that would have used 90% of global annual oil production. He also claims that the Allies were considering that the addition of Mussolini's Italy to the opposition was actually good, as Italy and the Italian armed forces were somewhat of a drain on the third reach's resources.
As for operation Sealion plans, you have to remember that the first rule in a vicious dictatorship is that you must have someone else to blame when it all goes tits up. The planners were merely making sure that failure could not be attributed to them or the Wehrmacht. ...
"Well, mein Führer, had the navy and the Luftwaffe done what we asked and delivered the 40 divisions according to the plan you approved, it would have succeeded. Doenitz and Göring will, I am sure, explain their failure. ... "
* ISBN 0-040909019-4
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Monday 11th May 2026 14:55 GMT I ain't Spartacus
Re: Do you remember when...
Eclectic Man,
It's a long, long time since I read Kennedy. And then wrote essays on his book, as he was a favourite of question setters in 1990s history departments. But wasn't his point about Italy being useless from WWI? The Austrians didn't want to have to fight on 3 fronts (Russia, Serbia and Italy) - but the British were worried they'd end up having to give Italy more resources to keep them afloat than they'd absorb German troops - which pretty much turned out to be the case. Or am I remembering wrong?
The WWII Italian Navy were much more effective, and scary, though having a doctrine of not training for night fighting because you plan to be home and in port (tucked up in bed) when it gets dark - turned out to be a poor strategy against the Royal Navy - who like the Japanese put a premium on night fighting training. Although the Italians were much less threat until France fell - when suddenly the RN had to escort convoys, keep the Kriegsmarine surface raiders out of the Atlantic, run supplies to Malta into the teeth of a huge Italian / German air force, fight in the Med and try to keep a deterrent force against Japan (that last bit went pretty quickly - and every time the RN tried to build a force to do it ships broke down or were urgently called away).
The Italian Navy were less of a factor in WWI, but their army were pretty effective, until they were ground down and their morale destroyed by continuous suicidal attacks in the most terrible mountain terrain. The WWII army were a lot worse, but the Navy a dangerous and effective force.
You're right about the power of blame-shifting in dictatorships though. Once Goering threw the Luftwaffe on the grenade of defeating Britain on his own, the Army could mostly get on with more productive things. Like planning an invasion of Russia without the logistics needed to get past Smolensk (half-way to Moscow). And the Kriegsmarine could get on with building subs.
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Monday 11th May 2026 17:24 GMT Eclectic Man
Re: Do you remember when...
I was recalling the following item and paragraph in chapter 6, section The Challengers, between tables 27 and 28 (on pages 297-8 in my edition), which rather stuck in my mind:
(Concerning Mussolini's Italy) "... Dominated by its cautious and inadequately trained officers and lacking a backbone of experienced NCO's, the army's plight in the event of a Great Powers war was hopeless and the navy (except the enterprising midget submarines) was little better off. .. there was no chief of staff committee to coordinate plans between the services or to discuss (let alone settle) defence priorities.
In 1939 and 1940, the western Allies frequently considered the pros and cons of having Italy fighting on Germany's side rather than remaining neutral. On the whole, the British chiefs of staff preferred Italy to be kept out of the war, so as to preserve peace in the Mediterranean and Near East; but there were powerful counterarguments, which in retrospect seem to have been correct. Rarely in the history of human conflict has it been argued that the entry of an additional foe would hurt one's enemy more than oneself; but Mussolini's Italy was, in that way at least, unique."
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Tuesday 12th May 2026 12:04 GMT I ain't Spartacus
Re: Do you remember when...
Eclectic Man,
Thanks for the reply. My copy is in a box somewhere.
So, you were right, and I was remembering it wrong. Cheers for the quote from the book.
I think this might be because I've been looking at a lot of naval history recently. The Italians get a bad rap for their performance in WWII. Much of it justified, after all when the phrase "Never in the field of human conduct has so much been surrendered by so many to so few" gets used, you know someone has badly underperformed. That was apparently a message Churchill got sent on the catastrophic Italian losse in Libya in 1940-41 - after operation Compass. And things might have gone very much more successfully in North Africa for the allies, had Italy also not made a complete mess of their invasion of Greece - causing Churchill to strip Middle East command of troops to support the Greeks - leaving them in no position to fight off Rommel, when the Afrika Korps turned up.
Certainly the Italians were a drain on German resources, and there's an argument that the month's delay to Operation Barbarossa of the German supporting attack into Greece cost the Germans their opportunity to take Moscow. Plus it gave the Western Allies somewhere to invade in 1943 that didn't involve putting troops into areas with no flank protection (like France).
Finally the naval war went very hard for the RN, in particular. The Italian Navy was, with exceptions, extremely effective. Of course, in planning beforehand, Britain were expecting to have to help France in the Med, and that would have made dealing with Italy much easier - rather than doing without France. But the RN had to do almost all its convoys round Africa, adding much more logistical strain, and they lost vast numbers of needed ships in the Med. Leaving nothing to deal with Japan and weakening the anti-submarine effort. In the Med, the RN lost 1 x battleship (of 3 total lost) 2 x carriers (of 5), 16 cruisers (of 28), 51 destroyers (of 132) and 45 submarines (of 77). Admittedly quite a bit of that is German subs and aircraft, but mostly they were operating from Italy - so no Italy, no loss.
I think, having not focused before on how hard that fight was, had affected my memory of that quote from the book - and also concentrating on the naval war and the effect of that on the later war with Japan, I'd also say Kennedy is wrong in his assessment that the pre-war British were mostly right to dismiss Italy.
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Monday 11th May 2026 09:04 GMT mhoulden
Re: Do you remember when...
It's named as the Post Office Tower on this map from 1973: https://maps.nls.uk/view/144878023. Even in 1966 it was referred to as a telephone exchange and radio tower: https://maps.nls.uk/view/144878020. It isn't labelled on some smaller scale maps but there are lot of other buildings that aren't. There just isn't room to label them all.
Incidentally, apologies to anyone who hasn't seen the National Library of Scotland maps website before and now spend ages on there.
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Thursday 14th May 2026 08:05 GMT Fred Dibnah
Re: Do you remember when...
Thanks for that rabbit hole. You bastard :-D
However, of relevance to this discussion I’ve discovered that the 1915 One inch OS maps show the route of the water pipe from the Elan Valley dams to Birmingham. The current maps don’t show it, and even at the Elan Visitor Centre there is no information on the pipe’s route. Presumably that’s because it’s now deemed to be critical national infrastructure.
I guess it’s OK to show the dams and reservoirs on the maps because no-one else has any Lancaster bombers.
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Monday 11th May 2026 09:47 GMT 42656e4d203239
Re: Considering
>>Even London gets minor earthquakes occasionally though, and sloshing might be a problem.
The tower sways in the breeze (that, on one occasion, combined with the rotation, caused a colleague to be rather travel sick). London is of course known for its calm weather and distinct lack of wind around high buildings cf. the Gherkin.
Sloshing will definitely be a problem for any pool that goes close to the edge - even allowing for a waterlevel drain around it (as many more conventional pools have), I am thinking that resonant waves might try to empty the pool onto the streets below.
--> /coat becasue you will need one if the sky level bird bath goes ahead...
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Monday 11th May 2026 13:00 GMT gryphon
Re: Considering
But presumably that would be on lower floors, if you are removing that weight and adding it at the top then it's naturally going to be top-heavy.
Also, is it constructed from concrete or steel?
My understanding is that concrete works very well in compression, i.e. weighing it down, but less so in expansion, so if you remove the weight it can 'spring' a bit and crack.
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Monday 11th May 2026 13:44 GMT CrazyOldCatMan
Re: Is the water
SWMBO (of the Jam on Bottom sorority)
Ah. One of Those.
(T' missus, she of proud Cornish ancestry [1], nevertheless uses the foreign Devon method of cream first. Insists it is merely replacing the butter so is logical).
[1] Any cream that isn't gently cooked until it is set isn't cream at all. It's top-of-the-milk.. And since one of her ancestors was an adjunct to the Rodda family, who am I to argue?
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Monday 11th May 2026 14:36 GMT I ain't Spartacus
Re: Is the water
If you put the jam on the top, it goes everywhere. That's why it needs to be protected with a thick layer of cream, to stop it falling off.
My friend claims that there's an important missing element. The thick layer of butter on the scone, then the jam, then the cream. But personally I think cream is superior to butter, and I'd prefer to just have more cream.
I really like cream, what can I say.
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Sunday 10th May 2026 08:06 GMT ComicalEngineer
Just be cause you can do something ...
Doesn't mean you should.
I would be interested to know if the designers have accounted not only for the additional weight of the water but also the resonant frequencies of the building before and after the installation.
All tall buildings are designed to flex and sway to a degree and I understand that it's relatively easy do design a building to do this within the structural limits of the design, but in this case the loads are fixed in place. I can't help wondering what would happen if the sway frequency of the building coincided with the frequency of the resultant waves in the pool. This could get into a positive feedback loop where the sway gets larger and larger until the building topples.
There are several instances of resonant frequency failures of buildings, mainly bridges but the PO Tower is a relatively narrow and tall structure and I can't help feeling that putting a large mass of water near the top is unwise.
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Sunday 10th May 2026 14:48 GMT Eclectic Man
Re: Just be cause you can do something ...
OR, they could use it as an energy store? Use 'free' solar power to pump the water to the top of the tower, and then let it flow down through turbines to generate power quickly when wanted?
Like that place in Wales:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station
"The Dinorwig Power Station (Welsh: Gorsaf Bŵer Dinorwig, pronounced [dɪˈnɔrwɪɡ]), known locally as Electric Mountain, or Mynydd Gwefru, is a pumped-storage hydroelectric scheme, near Dinorwig, Llanberis in Snowdonia national park in Gwynedd, north Wales. "
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Monday 11th May 2026 13:25 GMT Yet Another Anonymous coward
Re: Just be cause you can do something ...
There are lots of underdeveloped regions of the British isles with an excess of mountains
These could be relocated to the south east to create scenery, skiing opportunities and power storage for AI data centers.
In addition the resulting flat parts of Scotland and Wales could be repurposed as cricket pitches, thus finally bringing civilization to the troublesome natives
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Monday 11th May 2026 13:47 GMT CrazyOldCatMan
Re: Just be cause you can do something ...
Scotland and Wales could be repurposed as cricket pitches, thus finally bringing civilization to the troublesome native
Who would then regularly thrash England just like the other rebellious ex-colonies.
No thank you. Cricket for the English!
(Ironically, I'm wearing a Red Roses sweatshirt today. Despite their performance against Italy)
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Monday 11th May 2026 06:55 GMT Dan 55
Re: Just be cause you can do something ...
Seems to me to be the kind of thing which would end up in a Final Destination film.
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Sunday 10th May 2026 08:11 GMT Anonymous Coward
Having been in it a few years back when it still had an operational restaurant, I'm surprised there's room to fit a pool in. Much of the structure at the top is the central core and there is not a lot of space between that and the outside of the building. I went on a mildly breezy day and you could feel it rocking, so no thank you I would not want to go on a rooftop pool - or even to know how you would get up there....?
It was a bit of a bucket list thing though as I had always wanted to go up it and did manage to dine there. The view was great. The only weird thing was as the outside revolved - when you went for a wee, you came back out of the toilets and your table had moved which was a bit disorienting....
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Monday 11th May 2026 09:24 GMT Anonymous Coward
"Those proposals include public access to the top of the tower and its podium buildings for the first time in almost half a century. The 34th floor was famously home to a revolving restaurant that gave diners a panoramic view of Britain’s capital as it slowly turned once every 22 mins, but this was closed in 1980."
I'm so confused now as I went to a "secret squirrel" project meeting when I was at BT on the 34th floor. It was absolutely brilliant. There was even this old BT guy who took us all up in that old lift.
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Monday 11th May 2026 11:40 GMT Like a badger
Re: Not just a threat
In an earlier job, I worked in what had once been the Hawker Aircraft design office at Langley. Walls of this office building were about three feet thick of reinforced masonry as when built it was expected to be a target for enemy bombing. When the building was no longer needed in the late 1980s it was easily knocked down to be replaced by (ISTR) a Post Office distribution depot - so a low value land use that wouldn't have supported high demolition costs. It's worth watching either for real or online the demolition machinery used for crunching up the hardest reinforced concrete, it doesn't take no for an answer. Obviously the location and proportions of the PO tower create some challenges, but I wouldn't expect it to be in any way immune to the charms of building dismantlers.
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Monday 11th May 2026 14:20 GMT CrazyOldCatMan
Re: Not just a threat
Walls of this office building were about three feet thick of reinforced masonry as when built it was expected to be a target for enemy bombing
Previous orkplace had an old telephone exchange next door. That was built to be able to take a direct hit from a German 500lb bomb and still carry on working (was next to Brunels' old Railway Works building).
BT stopped using it when Strowger switches became unfashionable since putting in all the various bits of ducting/aircon etc etc would have cost far, far more than building a new exchange somewhere else and so it was largely derelict inside.
Someone did propose converting it into the IT office (it already had the requisite dark, dank atmosphere) but was overruled on the basis that a) it was a listed building so no, we wouldn't touch it with someone else's bargepole and b) it would cost far more than the project was worth.
I would have quite liked having an IT blockhouse. Especially if we could keep access to the deep maintenance pits under where the old frames used to be.
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Monday 11th May 2026 13:28 GMT CrazyOldCatMan
I sincerely hope..
That any infinity pool actually has something between it and the British weather. Otherwise the usability will be confined to about the 5 days a year where temperatures at the top of the BT tower are above 15C.. And, even then, the wind chiff isn't going to be much fun on 4 out of the five days.
(Or guests could just be supplied with nice thick neoprene full-coverage diving suits..)
