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Fridays can be a drag, but The Register has a formula to inject a little fun by delivering a new instalment of On Call – the reader-contributed column in which we share your tech support stories. This week, meet a reader we'll Regomize as "Albert" who told us about his time working for a substantial French consulting company's …

  1. Lee D Silver badge

    Maths

    Not an IT one but...

    Was working in a private school as an IT manager.

    Over the summer the playground had all new tarmac and markings, including a 100-square. The head had ordered that over the year EVERY subject teacher must find a usage for those markings, even if it was only once, with the kids.

    There was lots of moaning (I mean, sure, French, Science, I can think of all kinds of uses, but Religious Studies?) but one of them was the maths teacher, who was moaning to me, the IT guy about it. It was weeks later and he needed to get his lesson plans in order and they had to show usage of the markings.

    He was okay for the younger kids but couldn't think of anything to do with his older kids (Y7/Y8). This, in itself, was quite funny to me.

    "What about the Sieve of Eratosthenes?" I asked.

    He looked at me dumbfounded. I mean, fair enough, the name is quite obscure. So I explained:

    "You know... put a counter on all the multiples of 2, then all the multiples of 3, then all the multiples of 4, 5, etc. until you get to 10."

    "And then what?!"

    "Then... the numbers that remain will all be prime."

    "WILL THEY!?!??!!"

    He was flabbergasted. This was a guy with a degree in maths, a teaching qualification, teaching children maths, in a private school.

    "And why 10?" he asked me at one point.

    "Because that's the square root of 100, and it's a 100-square?"

    He ran off and started preparing his lesson.

    I mean, sure, I had a maths degree, but... I'm the IT guy!!! I shouldn't know that, and you NOT know that.

    1. Scott 53

      Re: Maths

      I remember explaining to an accountant that if a tax rate had gone up by 5% and had then come back down again you couldn't get back to where you started by reducing your price by 5%.

      1. KarMann Silver badge
        Flame

        Re: Maths

        Was his name Lutkin, by any chance? I know of a guy who thinks percentages might work like that…

        1. KarMann Silver badge
          Headmaster

          Re: Maths

          My bad; the name I meant is Lutnick, Howard Lutnick. I'll grammar-notsee myself.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Maths

          Trump thinks that reducing a price from $600 to $10 is a 600% reduction. Explains how he managed to bankrupt six casinos over an 18-year period.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Maths

            .. and now a country..

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Maths

              Only morally.

              (W Bush put the US into deficit, and it hasn't exited since)

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Maths

                Wasn't it Clinton who managed to actually achieve a surplus? I'm guessing that's why he really had to go, there now was money to be abused.

                The current incumbent doesn't feel bothered by the deficit since he managed to take a bank to court for having the mere temerity of asking their loan back. Now he has been put above the law he's milking that cow for all it's worth - he (and his dodgy friends) doesn't care it is dying as a consequence.

                1. FeRDNYC Bronze badge

                  Re: Maths

                  Clinton's administration briefly balanced the yearly budget, yes, but... honestly, people make a much bigger deal out of that than it really was. Don't get me wrong: I voted for Clinton, I campaigned for Clinton, I was (on balance) happy with Clinton's presidency... but from a bird's-eye view of his entire term in office, the balanced budget was ultimately the least meaningful thing they did. (Not to say that it was bad, it was just pointless. They did plenty of other, more meaningful bad things: DADT, DOMA, the 1994 "tough on crime" bill — there were some real stinkers in there, for sure.)

                  For starters, there was already plenty of outstanding debt accrued, so it amounted to little more than a temporary pause in the growth of that debt. The debt itself was not meaningfully reduced even when the budget was balanced, so there's an aircraft-hangar-sized room for debate about whether there's any necessity for, or even benefit to, having a balanced budget or a budget surplus if it does nothing to reduce the debt.

                  (When people talk about eliminating the deficit (the imbalance in the budget), they often mistakenly conflate it with eliminating the debt itself. Which... is not only incorrect, it's an economic impossibility. Just as a practical matter, there isn't enough currency in the entire world to cash out the full $39 trillion and change the US theoretically "owes" as its national "debt". To repay all of its creditors in physical currency, step one for the US would have to be instructing the Mint to start printing the cash required to do it. Which would, of course, so completely devalue the US dollar that it would be rendered worthless.)

                  Most people "know", conceptually, that national debt for a country has almost no resemblance to the personal credit card debt they carry. Nevertheless, most of us still fall back into patterns of thinking about it in exactly those terms, when we do think about it.

                  National "debt" is more akin to selling shares in the country. As long as the nation is stable and relatively functional (so, you know... we're admittedly not at our best there, currently...) ...As long as we're still a nominal superpower, creditors aren't particularly interested in recovering their investment principal. They're much happier profiting off the interest it generates, effectively using the country as a savings account for their wealth.

                  The US has had a national debt ever since its inception. (Revolutions are expensive! We started $75 million in the hole. ...These are unadjusted numbers, BTW, so that's $75 million in 1790 money.) The debt fluctuated up and down a bit in the $70 million - $105 million range through around 1825, then a concerted effort was begun to reduce the balance. In 1835 it hit an all-time low of $34 thousand 1835 dollars. By 1840 it was back up to $3.5 million, and by the end of the Civil War it was measured in the billions. It has broadly trended upwards ever since. There were occasional, small dips (1946: $270M; 1947: $258M; 1948: $253M // 1956: $273M; 1957: $270.5M), but nothing meaningful. Even during the Clinton "balanced budget" years, the debt actually increased (because interest on the debt still accrued) in raw-dollar terms — but the amounts were so small, the slope would reverse if you adjusted for inflation.

                  It's also worth noting that those brief actual-value reductions in the outstanding debt occurred — I would claim, not coincidentally — during periods when the top income tax bracket (the tax on the wealthiest Americans' highest earnings) was over 90%. Radical tax "reforms" (AKA pandering to the rich) begun in 1964 chopped the rate down from 77% that year to just ~39% in 1987, which is where it's hovered ever since. And the debt, again not coincidentally, has steadily marched upward. (Though some extraordinary spending events, like the COVID-19 response and subsequent financial stimulus, goosed it extra hard.)

                  (As a final note, I am not an economist and it's probably safest to assume that everything I've just written is incorrect. I'm certainly not going to blindly trust me!)

          2. Yes Me Silver badge

            Re: Maths

            When you tell him he's wrong, he'll change it to 590%.

          3. Meeker Morgan

            Explains how he managed to bankrupt six casinos over an 18-year period? Nope.

            Straining for a clever gotcha on Trump, but missing the real gotcha.

            The only way a casino goes bankrupt is skimming.

            He's a criminal not a dope.

            1. Excused Boots Silver badge

              Re: Explains how he managed to bankrupt six casinos over an 18-year period? Nope.

              Simple laws of probability, over time the ‘house’ always, always wins and makes a profit.

              To misquote Ian Fleming, 'to bankrupt one, is unfortunate, to bankrupt two is complete financial incompetence, to bankrupt three, is deliberate!"

              1. Robert Carnegie Silver badge

                Re: Explains how he managed to bankrupt six casinos over an 18-year period? Nope.

                Is that from Ian Fleming's "The Importance of Being Earnest"?

                But no, it's in Fleming's "Goldfinger", spoken by Auric Goldfinger.

                'Mr Bond, they have a saying in Chicago: "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action." '

            2. ICL1900-G3 Silver badge

              Re: Explains how he managed to bankrupt six casinos over an 18-year period? Nope.

              No, he's a criminal AND a dope.

      2. Lee D Silver badge

        Re: Maths

        Oh, I've had that conversation DOZENS of times.

      3. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

        Re: Maths

        Oh, basic % calculation. I had a case where reducing from 40h per week to 37.5h per week would be a reduction 6.666% of 6.25%. Another where "4/6 of a property if the same a 2/3" started a discussion about math. Another discussion was about "0", though that was with a person in a board game who does not even fling at self-denial so whatever it is, "this is about now, not a minute ago"...

        1. Stevie Silver badge

          Re: Maths

          Missing characters and what I suspect is spellcheck have rendered you tale the most impenetrable gibberish.

          1. KittenHuffer Silver badge

            Re: Maths

            "rendered you tale" - ain't karma a bitch?!?

            Saying that, at least the meaning of your reply is clear!

            1. Snowy Silver badge
              Coat

              Re: Maths

              I assume it was:

              Another where "4/6 of a property is the same as 2/3 of a property" started a discussion about math.

              Which is yes as 4/6 is the same fraction as 2/3 :)

              1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

                Re: Maths

                Yep, you got it!

        2. dmesg Bronze badge
          Facepalm

          Re: Maths

          There was an episode of QI where they asked the panel if zero was an even number. Stumped a few of them.

      4. Strahd Ivarius Silver badge
        Devil

        Re: Maths

        Why would you reduce your price after justifying an augmentation by new tax rates?

        If the tax rate goes down (something that has never yet happened in all recorded human history), there is only more profit!

      5. the spectacularly refined chap Silver badge

        Re: Maths

        I remember explaining to an accountant that if a tax rate had gone up by 5% and had then come back down again you couldn't get back to where you started by reducing your price by 5%.

        The hidden trap of the Lifetime ISA. If you put money in the government applies a 25% bonus on top of that. If you take it out again except for a first time property purchase or retirement they take a 25% penalty. People refuse to beleive this leaves you worse off until you demonstrate it with actual numbers, and even then they are dubious.

        1. ThomH

          Re: Maths

          I tend to go with "what if you got an extra 100% when you put money in, but when you withdraw any you have to give away 100%?".

      6. C R Mudgeon Silver badge
        Pint

        Re: Maths

        "I remember explaining to an accountant that if a tax rate had gone up by 5% and had then come back down again you couldn't get back to where you started by reducing your price by 5%."

        I'd expect an accountant to know better!

        That said, though, it's not an intuitive insight. I remember being confused by it the first time I encountered it as a youngster, and having to think it through to really "get" it.

        Which stood me in good stead, years later, when a friend commented about the apparent unfairness that (at the time) the Canadian dollar was worth about US$0.70, but the US$ was worth about C$1.40. (A small part of that is the buy/sell spread, of course, but it's the larger part of the "30 cents vs. 40 cents" WTF'ness that I'm talking about here.)

        I explained to my friend that you don't reverse it by subtraction, but by division. To which he replied, "Why?"

        Here's how I explained it: "A Canadian dollar is worth 70 US cents ... Which means it's worth 30 US cents less than a US dollar ... Which means that a US dollar is worth 30 US cents more than a Canadian dollar ... Which is 40 Canadian cents more than a Canadian dollar."

        I'm especially proud of that because I came up with it on the spur of the moment, in the middle of a somewhat Fear-and-Loathing-esque party weekend in Montreal when we both mostly had other things on our minds...

        ... including, in abundance, ---->

    2. 42656e4d203239
      Thumb Up

      Re: Maths

      When I saw "What about the Sieve of Eratosthenes?" I remembered being taught about that aged 8 or 9... So, to me, anyone not knowing about that ancient Greek seive is a bit odd... I must have had an outlier primary school!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Maths

        Nota one I've ever heard of, despite being relatively well educated, with a degree in engineering too. My primary school just taught the basics, like how to spell sieve when I'm not using copy and paste.

        1. that one in the corner Silver badge

          Re: Maths

          Nota bene spaces matter.

          1. elDog Silver badge

            Re: Maths

            Here in the rump of the US, we'd say "notta one I ain't never heard of".

            Latin and Olde English are hard. Jest give us some Southern Comfort.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Maths

              There should be plenty around anyway as Canadians have simply stopped buying it.

        2. Evil Auditor Silver badge
          Thumb Up

          Re: Maths

          When not using copy and paste, it's seef, surely. And yes, I'm dislexic.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Maths

            Lysdexia rules KO :)

      2. John Sager

        Re: Maths

        Not at my primary school (this was the 50s) but a couple of years later I learned about prime numbers and the Sieve reading Martin Gardner's books from his SciAm columns. What a trove of goodies they were!

      3. Antron Argaiv Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        Re: Maths

        I will admit to having heard the term, and it's use in finding primes, but not the details of the implementation.

        I will admit to having learned something today. Thank you!

      4. pirxhh

        Re: Maths

        It was a private (reform?) school. Maybe more of the dance-your-name kind?

        1. Vincent Ballard
          Headmaster

          Re: Maths

          No, if the older children were years 7 and 8 then it was a prep school for the Common Entrance exam.

      5. Terry 6 Silver badge

        Re: Maths

        Taught about it yes. Registering, nah. Sadly little of what we're taught is "learned" in any realistic sense, for most people. And the nearer we get to GCSE the more it's true (because it will instantly be removed from memory after the words "pens down").

        The Gradgrindian version of Education is much loved by certain part of society. They want kids to learn lists of Kings, irregular verbs and Greats of Literature*. Whereas teaching kids to reason, and sieve evidence etc. is thoroughly frowned upon as wishy-washy Lefty nonsense.

        *Stuff you can test and measure. Education may well be the only field in which Behaviourism holds sway still. Hence the preoccupation with Phonics** instead of teaching kids how to do reading.

        **Yes I was a reading specialist. I know that Phonics isn't how we read, but it's ideal for politicians, because it's simple and sounds reasonable, is easy to teach, even easier to measure.and makes for good league tables. It just isn't true.Most kids will become readers whatever method is used, but this one creates reluctant, mechanical,poor readers.

        1. david 12 Silver badge

          Re: Maths

          I know that Phonics isn't how we read, but it's ideal for politicians

          You're a teacher? And you think that teaching is most effective when using the methods used by the proficient?

          I don't know if that is because you learned little of what you were taught, or if it is because you were "taught" using a look-see memorisation method, because it's simple and sounds reasonable, is easy to teach, even easier to measure and makes for good league tables. It just isn't true, Most kids will become readers whatever method is used, but look-see word memorization creates reluctant, mechanical, poor readers.

          It's a particular problem that ineffective, poorly trained teachers, think that the methods they use for advanced reading, writing and arithmetic are, ipso-facto, the efficient / effective methods for beginner learners.

          1. Terry 6 Silver badge

            Re: Maths

            I don't know where you come from with this. I certainly don't advocate for Look-See. Any more than I advocate for Phonics. They both have their place and can both be part of learning to read. But reading is a cognitive process that utilises all our cognitive, linguistic skills. And there is a massive body of research showing that this is how we read. And I don't just mean proficient readers, though I do wonder how you think that kids taught a purely mechanical skill can magically transition to proficient readers using diffrent skills.

            And the limited evidence that we see from the lack of objective research in such matters, and anecdotal evidence as well, suggests that they don't.

            But the argument you make is a well known straw man argument used by the Phonics lobby to persuade politicians and the public that their way was the right way. Look and Say methods ( e.g. Janet and John in the UK) were pretty much a distant memory when this argument was being used.

            Just as they used straw man stigmatisation arguments to redefine cognitive methods as "just guessing" .

            The third cynical plank was to provide self-defining "evidence". Reading tests that were actually tests of phonic skills.So that kids who could even read fluently could be shown to perform less well than kids with great decoding skills.

            Why this was done?

            Vested interest was one reason, because there's money to be made selling phonics schemes. They are easy to design and cheap to produce, but get sold by an effective monopoly ( they have to be "authorised") for a lot of money.

            Lobby groups who genuinely believed that Behaviourist approaches were the way to teach or that these approaches were a solution to Dyslexia (which for some kids they can be- I have no objection to this approach for appropriate use btw). We see this a lot in Special Education where there are various organisations that promote Behaviourist systems to make kids appear to improve.

            However, what really surprises me is that after I've stated that I was a reading specialist (i.e. someone who has studied and practised the specific teaching of reading) someone comes along on here and claims that they know more about a subject I spent years learning about and practising, but without stating how or why they do. Maybe you do have a PhD in reading development, but you haven't said so. I only have a Psychology degree and few decades of continuous post-graduate training.

      6. glassix

        Re: Maths

        Odd indeed, but so our 100% of the prime numbers ;-)

    3. Michael H.F. Wilkinson Silver badge

      Re: Maths

      The good old Sieve of Erastothenes. This must be used in so many introductory computer science courses, if only to show that the notion of an algorithm predates any programming language or digital computer by millennia. I am not sure whether mathematics courses use this as often. Still quite surprising the maths teacher didn't know it.

      1. JulieM Silver badge

        Re: Maths

        I remember a ZX Spectrum BASIC programming book from the 1980s casually mentioning that musical notation was probably one of the oldest programming languages .....

        1. Paul Kinsler

          Re: musical notation was probably one of the oldest programming languages .....

          ... sounds plausible, ... if only because it is likely to be Tuning complete. :-)

          1. Victor Ludorum
            Pint

            Re: musical notation was probably one of the oldest programming languages .....

            Bravo Sir, have one of these -->

            Happy Bank Holiday weekend, everybody! (If you get one, that is...)

            V.

            1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

              Re: musical notation was probably one of the oldest programming languages .....

              Quite right. After all, every good boy deserves favour.

          2. cd Silver badge

            Re: musical notation was probably one of the oldest programming languages .....

            Had an Ahi moment there...

            <canned laughter>

          3. Bill Gray Silver badge
            Coat

            Re: musical notation was probably one of the oldest programming languages .....

            A sharp comment. One to take note of, and tough to beat.

            (Sorry if some of these puns fall flat.)

            1. David 132 Silver badge

              Re: musical notation was probably one of the oldest programming languages .....

              One might even say a C# comment.

              1. Timo

                Re: musical notation was probably one of the oldest programming languages .....

                Also no rest on the quarters

        2. Jedit Silver badge
          Coat

          "musical notation was probably one of the oldest programming languages"

          It certainly invented IT contracting. If you wanted music to a deadline, someone had to be handed a large bundle of notes.

          I know, I know...

        3. Vincent Manis

          Re: Maths

          BYTE magazine used to use the Sieve of Eratosthenes as a benchmark for compilers and interpreters, reporting execution time and IIRC executable size, where applicable. This came a cropper when it turned out that some products were looking for markers of a Sieve implementation (like an array size of 8192), and then generating very carefully hand-tuned code.

          1. IvyKing

            Re: Maths

            IIRC, the benchmark started as an article in a 1981 issue of Byte written by a member of the San Diego Computer Society about their work on making a portable benchmark for microcomputers. The intent was to evaluate software (interpreters vs compilers and different languages) as much as to evaluate hardware. Source code for implementations in several languages were included in the article. A second article in a 1982 issue of Byte "Once More Through the Sieve", had results for more hardware and software combinations along with implementations in more languages. The upshot was compiled code ran much faster (typ 10X) than interpreted code, with interpreted COBOL being the loser. I remember writing Fortran code to run on an 8 MHz 8086 and finding out it ran twice as fast as compiled BASIC on the same hardware.

            Early (1975 to ~1984) issues of Byte magazine, or other microcomputer magazines, are a trip to read as the future with micros seemed limitless.

          2. David Hicklin Silver badge

            Re: Maths

            > This came a cropper when it turned out that some products were looking for markers of a Sieve implementation (like an array size of 8192), and then generating very carefully hand-tuned code.

            Did they end up working at VW later in life?

        4. doublelayer Silver badge

          Re: Maths

          "musical notation was probably one of the oldest programming languages"

          We'd need a clear definition that distinguishes programming languages from languages in general. It's definitely a language that expresses something, but it lacks many of the aspects that a programming language probably should include like any kind of branching*, since there aren't inputs.

          * It does, sort of, have reuse because chunks can be repeated without copying all the notation by referring back to them. However, that doesn't count, at least to me, as branching, only compression.

    4. trevorde Silver badge

      Re: Maths

      Applied for a dev job many years ago and, amongst the many programming tests, was one to find the first 100 prime numbers. They were expecting a 'Sieve of Eratosthenes' implementation. However, I pointed out the prime numbers were very well known and hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, had already been discovered. Further, this set of primes was not going to change. My solution just loaded a file with the first 10k known primes and took the first 100. They were not happy, though very impressed at how well I 'cheated'. I didn't get the job.

      1. Jedit Silver badge
        Trollface

        "My solution just loaded a file with the first 10k known primes"

        ... and now you work in AI?

        1. Korev Silver badge
          Trollface

          Re: "My solution just loaded a file with the first 10k known primes"

          No, because he got the maths correct

          1. ecofeco Silver badge

            Re: "My solution just loaded a file with the first 10k known primes"

            BA DUMP BA!

      2. Anonymous Coward Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        Re: Maths

        If the test was to "find" the first 100 primes, that's fine. If they asked you to "calculate" or "work out" the first 100 primes, that's a different story.

        1. Strahd Ivarius Silver badge
          Coat

          Re: Maths

          And now, you create a program that will use some API to ask the question to some AI...

        2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Maths

          If they asked you to "calculate" or "work out" the first 100 primes, that's a different story.

          I think "work out" fits the OP's method. He worked out a means to get them.

      3. Herby

        Re: Math(s) and lookups.

        There was one test where you were supposed to get an input number and print out its factorial. The input range was 1-100, and the program was to generate the proper factorial. Not wanting to use (or devise) multi digit arithmetic stuff, I went to the web and found a page with factorials from 1-99 (I added to 100th factorial). Nice program with lots of strings and it was pretty easy to print out the proper indexed string given the input. No messy multi digit arithmetic stuff.

        Passed the test.

      4. Pete Sdev Silver badge
        Boffin

        Re: Maths

        Using pre-computed values, usually in a look-up-table, is a standard optimisation technique (speed at cost of memory usually), this is not cheating at all.

        Obviously you know this, but the people administrating the test should have too.

      5. C R Mudgeon Silver badge

        Re: Maths

        "They were expecting a 'Sieve of Eratosthenes' implementation [but I cribbed the list from an external source]"

        I went the other way. Being familiar with the Unix factor program, which produces a number's prime factors, I wanted an Amiga version. I wrote it in C (only for 32-bit ints; beyond that was out of scope), because that was what I had available, and it was my main programming language then anyway. It brute-forced the problem by the obvious "keep dividing by this prime until it doesn't go anymore, then move on to the next one".

        But it needed the primes to test against. Not having the Internet available (this was the 80s), I wrote a Sieve of Eratosthenes to generate the primes up to 2^16 and spit them out as a C array initializer into a .h file, which then got #include'd into the main factor program.

        Probably overengineered but, well, it was a way to avoid doing real work...

    5. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Maths

      "He was flabbergasted."

      And fairly surprised to find that when he got to 4, 6, 8 and 9 they already had counters.

    6. chivo243 Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: Maths

      50 minutes is not half an hour!

      1. cosmodrome

        Re: Maths

        But 5/6 is the same as 1/2. Because 6-5=1 and 2-1=1.

        q.e.d.

  2. herman Silver badge

    Analogue clocks

    The wife is a primary school teacher. She complained that the children cannot read clocks. So I pointed out that if the two hands are confusing them, show them how to read time with only the short hand - the long hand is not really necessary - ignore it.

    There are indeed 500 yo clocks around here with one hand, or two separate dials for hours and minutes. The concentric driven hands were invented more recently.

    1. bazza Silver badge

      Re: Analogue clocks

      We do make it hard for kids. First, it's counting in decimal, we drum 1-to-10 into them, they have 10 fingers, off they go.

      And then at school we say, "here's something called time that it's going to be really, really important to be able to count". The kids are like "ok, so I can count, no dramas, what's the big deal?". And then the teacher says (in effect) "Well we're going to count it in sexagesimal because <reasons>. And you can't actually see the things to be counted, they're called seconds but there's no firsts, and they're anyway third after hours and minutes. And for some of the bits of time we'll be counting we count only to 24, or sometimes to 12 twice, and you can't see those either but they take a lot longer to count". And the most thorough of teachers would add, "And sometimes we count only to 59, or to 61 or 62, but only at the end of December or June and only if you felt the Earth wobble in a particular way. And then the DST comes along and steals one hour from you, but gives it back later in the year".

      1. Sam not the Viking Silver badge
        Pint

        Re: Analogue clocks

        But the first number isn't one..... It's zero....

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Analogue clocks

          So hours in the day go from 0 to 12 twice. That's 26 total numbers

          1. jake Silver badge

            Re: Analogue clocks

            But the zero doesn't actually exist. Its a placeholder of zero length that marks where today turns into tomorrow.

            FENCEPOST ERROR: TIME NOT FOUND, CIRCULAR EXCEPTION

            1. John Robson Silver badge

              Re: Analogue clocks

              Surely it's the 12 that doesn't exist :p

              Or of course, we start counting at 12, and then proceed to 1.

              Because 12:30 pm can't exist if 12pm comes after 11pm.

              1. Jedit Silver badge
                Headmaster

                "of course, we start counting at 12"

                Actually we don't. We start counting at 9, we just call it 12.

                (Seriously. Noon comes from the Latin nona hora, and was originally the ninth hour of the day. When the ecclesiastical day was revised so the Sun reached its zenith at the twelfth hour, we changed the numbers but we didn't change the name.)

                1. John Robson Silver badge

                  Re: "of course, we start counting at 12"

                  In the same way that September through December are off by 2.

                2. dmesg Bronze badge
                  Boffin

                  Re: "of course, we start counting at 12"

                  The Romans added the extra day (or days, things were a bit looser back then) of a leap year not at the end of February, but after February 23.

                  A nice description of the matter can be found, appropriately enough, in Time magazine: https://time.com/6588874/leap-year-day-february-29-calendar-date-history-origin/.

              2. Strahd Ivarius Silver badge
                Facepalm

                Re: Analogue clocks

                I still remember one detective TV drama where the plot was about how people were reading the time wrong.

                10:50 is not half past ten..

                1. phuzz Silver badge

                  Re: Analogue clocks

                  And then someone types 10.50 and you have to guess what they meant.

                  1. David 132 Silver badge
                    Happy

                    Re: Analogue clocks

                    I've always felt that a promising TV detective plot device would involve a German witness to a British crime, and hinge on the disparity between how times involving half-hours are expressed in those two languages; "half 8 / halb acht" is interpreted by the former as being 0730, and the latter as 0830...

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: Analogue clocks

                      Yep, I worked/known with a lot of Dutch folk over the years. We've slipped up on the half-past and half-before on a few occasions.....

                  2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

                    Re: Analogue clocks

                    "And then someone types 10.50 and you have to guess what they meant."

                    I came across date of 30th of February in a baptismal register. (I also came across twins both being baptised Richard.)

                    1. C R Mudgeon Silver badge

                      Re: Analogue clocks

                      I had a girlfriend once whose surname was unique to her extended family. It seems that two or three generations back, someone had misspelled a somewhat common name in a baptismal register, and all the way down the subtree, that's just what their name has been. It wasn't "Smith" -> "Smih", but you get the idea.

                      1. Vincent Ballard

                        Re: Analogue clocks

                        In my class at school there were Taylors and Taylers, but that might just be an artifact of spelling not being standardised until recently.

                        However, my fiancée's surname is different to everyone else in her family (her father, her siblings, ...) because the registrar got it wrong.

                      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

                        Re: Analogue clocks

                        I have a friend in our local history group whose surname originated a few generations back, The first written record is on a tombstone so it appears that the deceased must have taken to using a different spelling during his lifetime. I'm not sure if my friend actually identified his birth or marriage record.

                    2. Bill Gray Silver badge

                      Re: Analogue clocks

                      Sweden's calendar included a February 30th in 1712. (Part of a mangled effort to switch from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian one, then changing the plan to go back to the Julian.)

              3. jake Silver badge

                Re: Analogue clocks

                The 12 doesn't exist, either. It's just a convenient handle to describe an event of zero duration.

                Likewise, midnight and noon aren't actual times, they are just markers between the old Roman notion of ante meridiem (before midday) and post meridiem (after midday). They both have zero duration, and as such are logical constructs, not actual times.

                Thus "midnight" marks the time when the prior day stops and the new day starts. As it is time of zero length, it doesn't actually belong in either day.

                Put another way, there is no "midnight on Monday", but there is a "midnight between Sunday and Monday" and a "midnight between Monday and Tuesday".

                It follows that the time 24:00:00 doesn't actually exist, and is an illogical construct.

                The numbers on a clock face aren't a counting system, they are an event marking system.

                1. Yes Me Silver badge

                  Re: Analogue clocks

                  > It follows that the time 24:00:00 doesn't actually exist

                  From which it follows that 23:59:59 doesn't exist either. The gap between 23:59:59 and 24:00:00 does exist, however.

                  1. jake Silver badge
                    Pint

                    Re: Analogue clocks

                    Correct.

                2. Fred Daggy Silver badge
                  Headmaster

                  Re: Analogue clocks

                  I think that fact is a lot of reason a lot of legislation it timed to kick in at 12.01am or 12.30am (00:01, or 00:30) or something like that. It is to avoid the whole "When is midnight and to which day does it belong?" question.

                  1. DoctorPaul Bronze badge

                    Re: Analogue clocks

                    Seem to recall that a few passengers either missed the sailing of their cruise or arrived a day early when the sailing time was given as midnight on the nth of the month. Pretty sure that they now always depart at 23:55 or 00:05 on a given date for the avoidance of doubt.

                  2. khjohansen
                    Facepalm

                    Re: Analogue clocks

                    .. The US has managed to *double* the issue by persisting in the use of an archaic system - 12:30AM is when exactly? Is it the same as 00:30PM?

            2. Strahd Ivarius Silver badge
              Coat

              Re: Analogue clocks

              I thought zero was there only to mark the end of a string?

              1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

                Re: Analogue clocks

                It's more logical to tie a not in it.

                1. jake Silver badge

                  Re: Analogue clocks

                  Quipu?

              2. Claptrap314 Silver badge

                Re: Analogue clocks

                No, it's the sole protector of innocent memory beyond the string...

          2. Herring`

            Re: Analogue clocks

            Wasn't there something with the last leap second? The NTP boxes reported "23:59:60" which caused a bunch of Oracle servers to shit the bed.

            1. Yes Me Silver badge

              Re: Analogue clocks

              NTP geeks hate leap seconds, because there is no correct solution, on account of 1+1 = 2.

      2. lglethal Silver badge
        Boffin

        Re: Analogue clocks

        There was a brilliant article on the BBC just recently about the origins of the hour. It seems it goes back all the way to the Sumerians who did basically work in a base 12 system.

        The explanation was that you count the 3 joints on the 4 fingers (not the thumb) to get your 12. And for 60 you basically fold down a finger (and the thumb) on the other hand after each count to 12, in order to count to 60 for the number of minutes in an hour.

        The system has basically lasted ever since. Although the French did apparently try to decimalise time at once point. It apparently only lasted about a year, before even they gave up and went back to standard hours and minutes...

        1. mobailey

          Re: Analogue clocks

          re: It apparently only lasted about a year,

          So about 3.6 decyears.

          1. FrogsAndChips Silver badge

            Re: Analogue clocks

            Nah, the year in the Republican calendar still lasted 365 or 366 days, the difference was that it was divided in 12 months of 3 "weeks" of 10 days, plus 5 or 6 extra days at the end of the year. Workers were pleased to have a day off every 10 days instead of 7.

            It actually lasted more than 10 years, until Napoleon got bored of it.

        2. HorseflySteve

          Re: decimal system

          The drive to decimalise everything is based on the false premise that it makes everything easier.

          While that's true in some cases, particularly for people who can't count past ten without removing their footwear, where the decimal system falls down is divisibility. 100 can only be exactly divided by 2, 4, 5, 10, 20, 25 and 50 so if you have 100 items to distribute between 40 recipients, you're going to have a problem.

          Consider the number of degrees in a circle & how many ways you can divide that; you might think "so what" but then consider using a compass to navigate on a sea.

          1. Bebu sa Ware Silver badge
            Happy

            Re: decimal system

            "consider using a compass to navigate on a sea."

            A compass (or sextant) graduated in milli-radians might be a bit more interesting than useful.

            1. Paul Hovnanian Silver badge

              Re: decimal system

              I have a French compass. Divided into gradians (400 in a circle).

              I also have an M1 gunners quadrant. Divided into 1600 mils per quadrant (90 degrees).

              Lots of different systems out there.

          2. Roland6 Silver badge

            Re: decimal system

            Decimalisation and SI units…

            Had a laugh recently, when it was pointed out the Astronmical Unit (AU) is the average (semi-major axis) distance between the Earth and the Sun, approximately 1.496 x 10^8 km ie. A nice round number not.

            Given how precise orbital calculations have to be to just get a rocket round the moon and back, it’s nice to know the charts are basically drawn using a rule of thumb. Obviously, at some point it will become formalised resulting in a set of units not dissimilar to feet and inches…

            1. Stevie Silver badge

              Re: decimal system

              KILOMETRES? Who uses kilometres for outer space measurments?

              The Sun is 8 anna harf light minutes from the Earth.

              You'll be telling times in kiloseconds next.

              Have to run. I have a meeting in 5 marine minutes.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: decimal system

                > kiloseconds

                That's ok, some of our missile guys used to use kilofeet for altitude. Made all the military pilots twitch, which probably why they did it.

              2. Esso

                Re: decimal system

                "The Sun is 8 anna harf light minutes from the Fifth Elephant" (Sir Pratchett on the mind, I suppose)

              3. dmesg Bronze badge

                Re: decimal system

                Will you have to run a mile to get there, or knot?

            2. cvoinescu

              Re: decimal system

              If that's wonky, try the parsec. It's the distance at which the major axis of the orbit of the Earth appears to span one second of arc. One second of arc is a sixtieth of a sixtieth of a sixtieth of a sixth (!) of a circle.

              1. Benegesserict Cumbersomberbatch Silver badge

                Re: decimal system

                Not only that, the sun appears to move 3.989 minutes of arc every minute of time.

              2. Excused Boots Silver badge

                Re: decimal system

                Parsec - parallax of one second. It sort of makes sense.

          3. ibmalone

            Re: decimal system

            All base systems ultimately have this problem in terms of simple division, it's what the decimal point is for. The ways you can divide umbers in any base evenly just come down to the prime factors of the base. Maybe go with base 2^2×3^2×5^2×7^2 (that's 1010110001000100 binary) just to be on the safe side.

            Or if you need more numbers, just get a compass in mils (and then hand it to someone who's never come across them before).

          4. that one in the corner Silver badge

            Re: decimal system

            What is sad is the number of people who defend decimal as simpler than any other system because "to multiply or divide by 10 all you have to do is move the point". And get angry when you point out that that exact statement is literally true for every single base, from binary upwards. Then it devolves into "but 10 (decimal) is obviously a better number than 10 (any other base)" and "but why would you ever want to divide by 10 (any other base); you can see that is plainly silly because just look how often we divide by 10 (decimal), you are going to make that so much harder"!

            1. Martin an gof Silver badge

              Re: decimal system

              Or you get shouted at by a maths teacher I had at school that the decimal point does not move!

              M.

            2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

              Re: decimal system

              "but why would you ever want to divide by 10 (any other base); you can see that is plainly silly because just look how often we divide by 10 (decimal), you are going to make that so much harder"

              The answer to that is:

              "You have a balance with two pans which will tell you when the amount on each pan is the same. You have a choice of two tasks."

              " 1. You have 100 grams of sugar. Weigh out 10 grams."

              " 2. You have 1 pound (16 ounces) of sugar. Weigh out 1 ounce."

              1. that one in the corner Silver badge

                Re: decimal system

                The only "reason" that we so often multiply or divide by 10 is because that *is* "10" - the base of the counting system that we happen to be using - and that it is easy to do so. It makes no difference what base we decide to use everyday, we'd always end up doing lots and lots of multiply/divide by 10 or 100 or 1000 - or 0.1 or 0.01 or 0.001

                Your examples "look different" (and hence makes your point - whatever it is) because you decided to write out the second one by deliberately changing the units used.

                If we were actually using as our everyday base "the number you get when you cut something in half, then cut all those in half, then cut all those in half and finally cut all those in half" then your second example would naturally read, sticking to one set of unit names instead of jumping to special subunit names,

                "2. You have 1 pound of sugar. Weigh out 0.1 pounds"

                And at the same time your first example would be upsetting (to the grade level at which you'd aim your two examples)

                "1. You have 64 grams of sugar. Weigh out A grams."

                (Of course, this is making the assumption that you would still know what a "gram" is, considering that it is clearly a measurement designed by a madman: you determine a particular atomic transition frequency, the speed of light and the Planck length - fine, no issue there, we are a scientifically literate species - then perform a really weird calculation on them -doesn't matter what base you use, it is going to be weird! - and call what you get a "kilogram". Odd name, doesn't make any sense, but who are we to argue? But then to get this "grams" value you divide your "kilogram" by 3E8 ! Madness!)

                1. retiredFool Silver badge

                  Re: decimal system

                  "we are a scientifically literate species", not in merica!

                  1. that one in the corner Silver badge

                    Re: decimal system

                    Ah, well, I was quoting a member of the group that natively uses "the number you get when you..." as they encounter our "grams"; on their planet there is no "'merica". Lucky sods.

                2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

                  Re: decimal system

                  "and hence makes your point - whatever it is"

                  The point, which you clearly missed, is that a number of historical mensuration were developed as practical systems and a lot of them are essentially binary. They are the product of people who actually did things.

                  We use the decimal system for the entirely arbitrary reason that the vertebrate tetrapod body plan evolved with 5 digits on each foot (apart from those groups which lost some of them in subsequent evolution). It was adopted as a basis of unit systems by an elite which was concerned with numbers. It is bad at the sorts of things at which the practical unit systems excelled. It cannot meet the first challenge. Try it as a thought experiment if you don't believe me.

                  The best the decimal system could do would be a test to weigh out a single gramme from a kilogramme and hope that error from the resulting division by 1024 would be swamped by the experimental error of the repeated operations.

                  Yes, you can use a digital balance to meet the first challenge. It gives you numbers. Such results are trusted blindly by those who prefer numbers without thinking too closely where they came from. Me? When we bought a digital balance for the lab I took advantage of the fact that we had the local weights and measures dept. next door so I went round and borrowed some of their standard weights to check it.

                  Systems that use bases other than 10 evolved for sound practical reasons seem to be regarded as superstitions by those who worship the arbitrary decimal systems. Arguably it is the decimal system which is the superstition.

                  1. that one in the corner Silver badge

                    Re: decimal system

                    > Systems that use bases other than 10 evolved for sound practical reasons seem to be regarded as superstitions by those who worship the arbitrary decimal systems. Arguably it is the decimal system which is the superstition.

                    God grief, we seem to have reached the point that you agree totally with my original thesis but we communicated that so badly that both insulted the other's intelligence!

                    What a marvel the Internet is.

                    1. Esso

                      Re: decimal system

                      And why the hell can I display a game in four or five different numbering systems (i.e. exponents, scientific, engineering), but Coinbase only shows me that Shiba Inu is down 0.000000035?

                      Are exponents too hard for traders and cryptobros?

              2. doublelayer Silver badge

                Re: decimal system

                A great demonstration; let's stop using grams. You could of course solve this one problem for me:

                You have a balance with two pans which will tell you when the amount on each pan is the same. You have 1 ton (either of them) of something. I'd like 100 pounds of that.

                As with any other balance, you could manage that. People did. It's not as simple as you pretend it is because only the pound is a power of 2 in that system. The ton, the stone, the hundredweight (112 pounds UK, 100 pounds US) are all not powers of two. You picked the only one in that system which fits your argument and hold it up as if we'd not know about all the rest of them. Even if we accepted that our units of weight still had to be based on simple balance scales that we've improved many times centuries ago, you would still be wrong because we'd have to invent a system of weights that actually did that.

              3. ibmalone

                Re: decimal system

                If this example shows anything it's really that neither argument is all that useful.

                100g of sugar is not 1 pound of sugar.

                10 grams of sugar is not 1 ounce of sugar.

                1 ounce / 1 pound = 1/16th, 10 g / 100g = 1/10th

                So none of the quantities are the same. The problem is constructed so that hey, there's a nice solution for one of these where I can repeatedly divide by two. If I happen to want 6.25g of sugar starting from 100g I can do exactly the same trick. If I want 1.6 ounces of sugar from a pound it's the same situation as 10g from 100g. So the possible responses then (if I may), are either well you'd never need 1.6 ounces or you don't say 1.6 ounces you say 1 ounce, 153 drachms and 4200 grains (there being 7000 grains it stops here, if the system was consistent powers of two we'd carry on forever). Or some combination of you don't /quite/ need 1.6 ounces, we'll find a nice nearby nice amount of drachms.

                And basically we get to where would the numbers come from in the first place. Yes, your unit system might be based on a series of even divisions starting from some reference (the factors going up from a pound are not so consistent), but (since we're talking sugar) in baking the amounts are just going to be specified on the nearest convenient amount that works. In engineering and scientific applications you might need more precision and it's more likely that how close you get to the desired amount depends more on the practical limits of what can be achieved, the actual unit system is just the opportunity to mess it up.

            3. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: decimal system

              More people have 10 fingers (and toes), than those that do not.

              That is why 10 is simpler. Move along, nothing to see here.

          5. Stevie Silver badge

            Re: decimal system

            So many people wig out about the need of decimal/metric to "make life easier", but as a child I learned to measure in feet and inches, tell time in hours minutes and seconds, work currency in pounds, shillings, pence and guineas and weights in ounces, pounds and stones with no real difficulty. I also used both centigrade and Fahrenheit for temperature with no major issues either (despite modern revisionists both centigrade and Fahrenheit were broadcast as part of the weather reports as late as the spring of 1984. Upside-down Celsius was not so much as mentioned).

            I'm not arguing for a return to any of the deprecated currency or length, area, volume and temperature measuring standards, but teaching children to read an analogue clock or read a compass is not an insurmountable task requiring herculean measures to achieve.

            In my opinion, of course.

            1. Martin an gof Silver badge

              Re: decimal system

              There are plenty of people who find maths - any kind of maths - difficult, so standardising money (in particular) to decimal was a huge benefit. Base 16 or 12 or whatever is much "prettier" and very useful for easy halving / thirding which is a lot of what we do when (for example) weighing ingredients or dividing circles, but for people with simple needs, simplifying Pounds to one hundred Pence outweighed the advantages to others who found it aesthetically pleasing to know, easily, how many thruppences were in a Crown.

              M.

              1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

                Re: decimal system

                I think it helped us thing in terms of fractions more easily. 1/3 of a £ is pretty meaningless in terms of decimal currency. In old money i was 6s 8d.

                Also, measuring systems were based on practical choices. A plain balance allowed for dividing material by two, including liquid measures, hence pounds* and ounces, gallons and pints. Dozens could be split into halves, thirds and quarters. They were, in fact, easier for people with limited numeracy. Dividing anything material by 10 was far less frequently needed until it was forced on the population by an elite who thought in terms of numbers rather than stuff.

                It's decimal that's "prettier".

                * Goodness knows where the 14lb stone came from, however. The stone could be specified. I've read one C18th diary recording the diarist being weighed in terms of a stone of 15lb so a binary-compatible 16lb stone might have been acceptable.

                1. PB90210 Silver badge

                  Re: decimal system

                  The 'stome' varied according to what you eeret weighing... a stone of glass is just 8lb...

                  Possibly the best is the weight of a live animal is in 14lb stone, but once slaughtered they used 8lb stone, so a 20stone animal enters the abattior and leaves still at 20 stone... the difference being the bones and all those other delicious trimmings used in sausages

              2. that one in the corner Silver badge

                Re: decimal system

                Really can not agree with that.

                Given that we had people who were *really* "bad at maths" but were still very happily using old money and were (are) flummoxed by decimal coinage simply not being as easy to use. Many were average humans who just happened to be very young and learning to be numerate, a few were adult and just not numerate for various reasons.

                Because when you really are "bad at maths" - which really means "bad at the written down symbolic stuff" - they could, still do, go back to *actual* genuine maths and counting theory: correspondence.

                E.g. they had a pound note and wanted to pay three children equal amounts for pocket money: they'd get specie* for the note, (didn't matter the denomination). Then they just had to make up equal piles, one per child. Literally. Put the recipients in a row and just dish out the coins, creating piles in a 1:1 correspondence to them. Trying to claim that the benefits of multiple divisors, on the one area of calculation that everyone has to encounter, no matter their ability, is of no more value than "aesthetically pleasing to know, easily, how many thruppences were in a Crown" is absurd, short sighted, lacking in historical as well as basic arithmetic understanding just for the sake of some imagined jibe at the older generations.

                * and before any of the untrusting people start to claim that everyone who was asked to make change for these people were "obviously going to rip them off", there are ways for the totally innumerate to verify; at worst, they are slow at the bank counter (remember, back in the days of lsd you could go into a bank and get lifelike service).

                1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

                  Re: decimal system

                  Old d you could obtain specie to divide into equal piles for three children. In new p you have one left over. I suppose you could keep that and teach them to expect to be ripped off.

              3. Terry 6 Silver badge

                Re: decimal system

                Also, pre-decimal coinage was, or was made to be, inconsistent. It was 12s for pennies and shillings, followed by 20s for shillings and pounds. Which could get pretty confusing for a small kid.

                1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

                  Re: decimal system

                  The small kid that was me did not find it so at all.

                  1. jake Silver badge

                    Re: decimal system

                    This small kid from California who was brought up on dollars and cents did not find it difficult at all when he was deposited in Cornwall. Once he grocked the concept of "exchange rate", that is, and figured out that no, he wasn't getting ripped off down at the sweet shop.

                2. that one in the corner Silver badge

                  Re: decimal system

                  Don't recall being confused by it. (shrugs)

                  There was no particular reason to expect that the factors would remain the same (inches, feet, yards - or switching to fathoms at bath time).

                  And you've forgotten that it started with farthings at the bottom, not pennies.

            2. TDog

              Re: decimal system

              What about the farthing, let alone the half, third, and quarter farthings?

              1. Ken Shabby Silver badge
                Holmes

                Re: decimal system

                Me, I liked the Groat, silver and four pence.

            3. jake Silver badge

              Re: decimal system

              I'm with you, Stevie.

              I first came to England before decimalization, and when Sterling still ruled. I lived there, on and off, until well past decimalization. I never had any trouble, once I figured out the point of "exchange rate". Today I still think in either feet and inches or m/cm (F/C, whatever). Well, maybe not in Sterling anymore. But I have a box to do that for me (see next post).

            4. jake Silver badge

              Re: decimal system

              Somewhat interestingly, at least to me, is that none of y'all have mentioned Sterling use in computing.

              My IBM 1401's basic Sterling system is not actually installed yet, and may never be[0]. It consists of some 267 extra SMS cards and attendant bits & bobs to make it all play nice. Some assembly required (I have the necessary manuals and schematics). It all tested OK when scavenged from a soon to be scrapped 1401 ... the old codger who helped disassemble it assured me that it would all work just fine in my '63.

              Yes, you read that right ... The IBM 1401's handling of Sterling was done in hardware! Not sure what IBM was smoking ... but it worked. Quickly (for the time) and reliably (even by modern standards).

              [0] The ol' gal claims Sterling notation makes her germanium itch something fierce. I have had pity on her and have scrounged another 1401 to install it in.

          6. doublelayer Silver badge

            Re: decimal system

            The only thing it makes easier is not having to track the size of arbitrary units, most of which were not defined by people interested in what you're pretending they're interested in. It's not that decimal is the best base; there's basically nothing about it that makes it better than any other base and, compared to 12 or 16, you could argue it's worse. However, since we have all decided to use it for most of our numbers, it makes sense to continue using it rather than make people work in other bases, because the same people who explain how great feet are for measuring things because what if you have a thing that's exactly one foot long and need to cut it into thirds (you don't need to, and if it's a meter, you can still do it) would complain vociferously if we accepted that and also informed them that all other numbers were going to get reported in base 12 too.

            As for degrees on a compass, there's a factor that probably should be in whatever divisor you use for that: 4, so you can still have due north, east, south, and west. Other than that, you can divide it in any way you like. Whether that's 100 decgrees, and if you need something more precise you divide those in tenths, or 360 degrees, or 400 gradians, or 144 dozendegrees, it will work. For most purposes, the difference between 77 and 78 degrees east-northeast doesn't matter, and when it does, nothing says an integer number of 1/360 off your reference is going to include the right value.

          7. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: decimal system

            > 100 items to distribute between 40 recipients

            Which a lot easier than C items amongst XL recipients.

            For all the good the romans achieved, they never got the number thing right. A big fat 0 for them.

            I recall years ago talking to my then partners teenage daughter about numbering systems and explaining about 8 bit and 16 bit, and bits and bytes and hex and all that, and mentioning the romans never had a 0. She now has a PHD in aerospace.

          8. Vincent Ballard
            Boffin

            Re: decimal system

            I'm not sure that distributing 100 items between 40 recipients is any easier in a different base.

        3. breakfast Silver badge
          Thumb Up

          Re: Analogue clocks

          Similarly our seven-day weeks have names derived from the planets or the gods associated with them thanks to the Sumerians. Incredibly influential astronomers.

          1. Jedit Silver badge
            Angel

            Re: Analogue clocks

            Hence the folk song, Sumer Is Icumen In.

            Lewdly sing, cuckoo clocks.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Analogue clocks

            Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday come from Norse gods... Týr's day, (W)Odin's day, Thor's day and Freyja's day...

            1. KittenHuffer Silver badge

              Re: Analogue clocks

              And after Tuesday even the calendar says WTF!

            2. that one in the corner Silver badge

              Re: Analogue clocks

              The Romans, in their neverending quest to subsume every local religion, had a go at mapping the Norse gods onto theirs, and therefore the planets, giving us Woten == Mercury (apparently). Leading eventually to the French getting their spelling of Wednesday completely wrong (I mean, the first letter is close, but it is upside down!).

              1. FrogsAndChips Silver badge

                Re: Analogue clocks

                Werde alors!

                1. DaveK23
                  Coat

                  Re: Werde alors!

                  Merde to yo' momma!

            3. FrogsAndChips Silver badge

              Re: Analogue clocks

              In germanic languages, yes. In latin languages, they come from the planets (or the satellite of the Earth) associated with the gods.

          3. that one in the corner Silver badge

            Re: Analogue clocks

            The well-known planet that Monday is named after.

            1. BoldMan

              Re: Analogue clocks

              That'd be the Moon, don't start on "its not a planet" the naming system is not scientific...

              1. that one in the corner Silver badge

                Re: Analogue clocks

                Guff.

                Not even the ancients ever confused the Moon with the Wandering Stars.

              2. Ken Hagan Gold badge

                Re: Analogue clocks

                We had the "it's not a planet" discussion yesterday.

                1. Excused Boots Silver badge
                  Devil

                  Re: Analogue clocks

                  We had the "it's not a planet" discussion yesterday.”

                  And, we’ll probably have it again, many times......

            2. breakfast Silver badge

              Re: Analogue clocks

              Very working-week coded that you went straight to Monday, bypassing Sunday.

              I should, of course, for this audience, have said "celestial bodies" but the part that I find interesting is that the first five planets are consistently the source of the names across so many cultures, so I typed without precision.

          4. Dinanziame Silver badge

            Re: Analogue clocks

            Worth noting that even the Japanese have their days of the week named after the very same planets (plus moon and sun) as Europeans, in the same order.

        4. Bebu sa Ware Silver badge
          Coat

          Re: Analogue clocks

          "The explanation was that you count the 3 joints on the 4 fingers (not the thumb) to get your 12. And for 60 you basically fold down a finger (and the thumb) on the other hand after each count to 12, in order to count to 60 for the number of minutes in an hour."

          With that amount of unprecedented cleverness it is perhaps unsurprising that were buried, if not exactly by history, by their neighbours before they could develop computing mechanisms and agentic AI.

          Presumably Sumarian accountants convicted of fraud were deprived of half of their computational facilities.

          There is only one thing more dangerous than a clever man - no, that's not a clever woman - it's a man who thinks he clever.

          † a reasonable, if suicidal, guess but a clever female would definitely be clever enough not to ever be detected as such.

        5. cd Silver badge

          Re: Analogue clocks

          US postal service uses 24-hour clocks but decimal minutes.

          1. Anonymous Custard Silver badge
            Headmaster

            Re: Analogue clocks

            Around here, the postal service seems to have more trouble with calendars than clocks.

            Our "daily" (or rather weekday, to be more accurate) delivery of anything that isn't signed-for or similarly tracked seems to be now more on a weekly basis.

            Painfully ironic given how much the price of stamps are these days.

        6. NorthIowan
          Facepalm

          Re: Analogue clocks

          Made me remember trying to use my fingers to count in binary. First it's hard to do all the combination of fingers up and down. And then there is the problem of when you get to four.

        7. This post has been deleted by its author

        8. bazza Silver badge

          Re: Analogue clocks

          I think we should ditch decimal and adopt sexagesimal for everything!

        9. Outski
          Facepalm

          Re: Analogue clocks

          My Uncle Jeff would be a bit buggered, then - he decided to investigate a lawnmower cylinder with his forefinger, so has only had half that finger since he was six.

          1. The Organ Grinder's Monkey Bronze badge

            Re: Analogue clocks

            Black adder "I've got a good idea"

            Nursie "you don't want to have ideas or your foot will fall off. My brother had a good idea once, to cut his toenails with a scythe, & his foot fell off."

            (from memory, but close enough.)

        10. Albert Coates Bronze badge

          Re: Analogue clocks

          In the cuneiform script the Sumerians used, there were numbers 1-9, and special symbols for 10, 20, 30, 40, and 50

          But there were at least five different sorts of cubit, depending on where you lived in the ancient world.

          1. that one in the corner Silver badge

            Re: Analogue clocks

            > But there were at least five different sorts of cubit, depending on where you lived in the ancient world.

            Because back then the world was flat, which meant the further you got from the centre the faster your linear velocity and hence the greater your relativistic foreshortening. Which meant, as you carried your standard ruler (probably a pharaoh) from place to place, the size of the cubit changed.

            (There are worse things that can happen when you decide to choose the wrong transform of the shape of the world; suggested reading: "Inverted World" by Christopher Priest)

        11. C R Mudgeon Silver badge

          Re: Analogue clocks

          "[...] you count the 3 joints on the 4 fingers (not the thumb) to get your 12."

          I do that, using my thumb as a pointer. I learned it from a book.[1]

          "And for 60 you basically fold down a finger (and the thumb) on the other hand after each count to 12, in order to count to 60 for the number of minutes in an hour."

          Or just run the same technique on your other hand, assuming both are free.

          Why do I, a reasonably intelligent adult, count on my hands in the first place? Not for simple cases, but for the same reason they make these: if each of the items being counted takes some thought (e.g. to decide whether to include or exclude it), keeping the running tally on my hands frees up brainspace to concentrate on each individual item.

          Tallying with digits instead of whole fingers, I can get up to 99 if using both hands. The only challenge, since I'm half-distracted (because see above), is remembering to do the carry at 10, instead of counting on to 12 as the low-level muscle-control part of my brain wants to do.

          If you're OK counting in duodecimal and converting at the end, you can count up to 143 on your hands.

          [1] "The Universal History of Numbers", by Georges Ifrah. What I have is a three-volume set: "The World's First Number-Systems", "The Modern Number-System", and "The Computer and the Information Revolution". I've barely dipped my toes into it, but can see myself getting lost for weeks...

      3. 8BitGuru

        Re: Analogue clocks

        Dave Allen has entered the chat (30 years ago).

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QVPUIRGthI

      4. Russ Pitcher

        Re: Analogue clocks

        You're not wrong about the complexity, but I did find out relatively recently that there is a good reason that they're called seconds. It is down to the division of the hour in two levels. The first is 'pars minuta prima' (minute) which means the first small part, and 'pars minuta secunda' (second) which means the second small part.

        When I first heard that I had one of those really wonderful Aha! moments as a small but constant part of my life suddenly made more sense.

        1. Inventor of the Marmite Laser Silver badge

          Re: Analogue clocks

          Thanks for that.

        2. Anonymous Custard Silver badge
          Thumb Up

          Re: Analogue clocks

          Today is a good day, something new learned after all these years (and months, weeks, days, hours, minutes and seconds)...

          Indeed thanks for that, have a deserved upvote.

          1. blu3b3rry Silver badge
            Pint

            Re: Analogue clocks

            Indeed, something new learned! Fascinating topic when you dig into it a bit further. Have one on me ----->

        3. tychos nose

          Re: Analogue clocks

          And a sixtieth of a second is called a third.

          1. Anonymous Custard Silver badge
            Headmaster

            Re: Analogue clocks

            And so on downwards - to quote Wikipedia

            In 1267, the medieval scientist Roger Bacon stated the times of full moons as a number of hours, minutes, seconds, thirds, and fourths (horae, minuta, secunda, tertia, and quarta) after noon on specified calendar dates.[45] Although a third for 1⁄60 of a second remains in some languages, for example Arabic ثالثة (ṯāliṯa /θaː.liθa/), the modern second is further divided decimally.

            1. DaveK23
              Coat

              1/60 sec...

              ... will always be one jiffy to me, thanks to the time standard on CBM PET.

              1. Jedit Silver badge
                Headmaster

                Re: 1/60 sec...

                My favourite time unit is the shake. It's 10 nanoseconds, which is the approximate length of time for a single reaction in a nuclear chain.

                Interestingly, the beard-second - the length by which the average beard grows in one second - is analogous at 10 nanometres. There's probably some deep cosmic meaning to this that someone should explore.

                1. Uncle Slacky Silver badge

                  Re: 1/60 sec...

                  Mine's the microfortnight (1.2096 seconds):

                  http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/M/microfortnight.html

                  1. Glen 1

                    Re: 1/60 sec...

                    I'm quite fond of the Attoparsec myself.

                  2. khjohansen

                    Re: 1/60 sec...

                    FFF(reedom!) Units?? Imma steal that!

                    1. jake Silver badge

                      Re: 1/60 sec...

                      Can't steal something that's public domain. I first heard the term in the summer of 2003. Presumably it was derived from disgraced Republican Congressman Bob Ney's concept of "freedom fries" earlier in that same year.

                2. tychos nose

                  Re: 1/60 sec...

                  And a light-nanosecond is, within 2% precision, an imperial foot.

                  1. J.G.Harston Silver badge

                    Re: 1/60 sec...

                    And to electronics/radio engineers, the speed of light is *exactly* 300,000,000 m/s. :)

                3. TDog

                  Re: Shake

                  As in 3 shakes of a lamb's tail. Proverbially almost instantaneous (Feynman). And Barn as a measurement of nuclear cross sectional area, as in "You couldn't hit a barn door at..." (Same source)

                  1. Ken Shabby Silver badge
                    Boffin

                    Re: Shake

                    How many sheds in a barn?

              2. James Wilson

                Re: 1/60 sec...

                They were trying to correct for the user in TFA as a jiffy should be 1/100 sec.

              3. ricardian

                Re: 1/60 sec...

                All praise to Raeto West

          2. Herby

            Re: Analogue clocks

            > And a sixtieth of a second is called a third.

            In the good places on this earth, it is called a cycle of power.

            Sometimes in computers it can be called a "jiffy" (YMMV).

      5. This post has been deleted by its author

      6. that one in the corner Silver badge

        Re: Analogue clocks

        Which is why it made perfect sense to teach them pounds shillings and pence.

        Kids will happily count money and how many gobstoppers you can get for a tanner if they are a ha'penny each. Figuring out that getting fourpence a minute will net them them a quid in a hour just comes naturally to the mercenary brats ("come on mister, thruppence a box means you're gonna need to break change at lunchtime and the banks close early today").

      7. druck Silver badge

        Re: Analogue clocks

        Kids managed quite well in the pre-decimal currency days when they had to manipulate pounds, shillings and pence.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Analogue clocks

          We certainly did.

        2. Terry 6 Silver badge

          Re: Analogue clocks

          Not particularly.

      8. slimshady76

        Re: Analogue clocks

        Blame it on tbe Babylonians. Those darn 60-lovers screwed us up long time ago.

      9. Greybearded old scrote
        FAIL

        Re: Analogue clocks

        Well our neighbours had a really good go at fixing it, while they were making all the other measures sensible. Didn't catch on sadly, not even when arguing would have the point explained by Mme Guillotine.

        Let's not try again though.

        Edit: Damn, I should have read further before posting. And now I can't see the delete button.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Analogue clocks

          it has been withdrawn?

        2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Analogue clocks

          "while they were making all the other measures sensible"

          The word is "impractical". It was the work of people who thought in terms of numbers, not stuff so they through out all the practical mensuration systems used by people who actually did things. They weren't even that clever about it, otherwise they'd have gone straight to binary.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Analogue clocks

            "Through" ?

            Dammit, "threw"!

      10. Apocalypso - a cheery end to the world Bronze badge

        Re: Analogue clocks

        > We do make it hard for kids. First, it's counting in decimal, we drum 1-to-10 into them, they have 10 fingers, off they go.

        You forgot to add: and the dial is numbered 1 to 12 and sometimes 13 to 24 as well but it's also invisibly numbered 1 to 4 so that we can say quarter past, half past and quarter to but not three-quarters past as that is wrong, obviously!

        1. Strahd Ivarius Silver badge

          Re: Analogue clocks

          But we can still say: from two to two to two to two, can we?

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Analogue clocks

          What dial goes to 12. This one goes to 11!

          1. jake Silver badge

            Re: Analogue clocks

            My 1959 Fender Bassman (bought new by my Father in 1960) goes up to 12. Occasionally.

      11. dmesg Bronze badge
        Headmaster

        Re: Analogue clocks

        Actually, there are firsts: they're called minutes. They're called that because they're minute (pronounced my-nyoot) parts of an hour. Seconds get their name because they're minute parts of minutes: second-order small parts of an hour.

        Not that this helps the situation any.

        OTOH, I recall seeing a Smithsonian exhibit of artifacts from at the Great Exhibition (1851, the "Crystal Palace"). One item, from France, was a clock embodying the idea of decimal-based time. The numbers on the face went from 1 to 10. It was ... weird.

      12. David Hicklin Silver badge

        Re: Analogue clocks

        > And then at school we say, ....

        And then try to explain leap years except when they are not but sometimes are....

    2. jake Silver badge

      Re: Analogue clocks

      When I were a nipper, kids learned to read analogue clocks before they got to Kindergarten. How else could they make sense of TV-Guide?

      So-called "digital" clocks on VCRs and wrist watches put the kibosh on that. I run across adults who can't read a clock with hands fairly regularly. It started in the mid-1970s ... Neighbor across the street from my parents bought a new mailbox with a "programmable" LED display for the house number. Ran off the low-voltage doorbell circuit (new LED doorbell button included!!!). The user's manual was plastered with the word "DIGITAL!", in all CAPS with the exclamation point ... I was asked to "program" the silly thing for him. For values of "programming" that included placing jumpers properly ... Only five digits, they didn't even scroll. But it was DIGITAL! with a low, low cost $499.95, in 1975 money. At least it wasn't battery powered ...

      And of course, during that decade, we had "digital" alarm clocks, watches, microwave ovens, televisions, VOMs, indoor/outdoor thermometers and the like, all of which were "digital" only in display. But we were going DIGITAL!, if you believed the marketing hype. Sound familiar?

      I have a flip-card digital clock radio (with stereo cassette player!) here in the office that hasn't been plugged in[0] since we moved in. It has shown the correct time twice per day that entire time ... I set it to 4:04, as I do all my non-running analog clocks. That way one can tell at a glance that time was not found.

      [0] I'm not generally prone to dust-collectors of this nature, but this one amuses me.

      1. Anonymous Custard Silver badge
        Headmaster

        Re: Analogue clocks

        DNA was as prescient as ever...

        “Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun. Orbiting this at a distance of roughly ninety-two million miles is an utterly insignificant little blue green planet whose ape-descended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea.”

      2. TeeCee Gold badge
        WTF?

        Re: Analogue clocks

        I read that and looked at my wrist. On there is a, most decidedly digital, small computer that looks like a watch... displaying an extremely convincing analogue dial.

        It's all become rather silly really, hasn't it?

        1. GlenP Silver badge

          Re: Analogue clocks

          I still have a Casio Twincept watch, fairly unusual here in the UK but I bought mine in the US, that has an LCD screen built into the watch glass overlaying the analogue dial. In the pre mobile phone days it was handy for appointments and an address book but took ages to carry out data input using just 4 buttons.

          Nowadays I also have a digital representation of an analogue dial on my wrist.

    3. Lee D Silver badge

      Re: Analogue clocks

      This is very true.

      But also: The kids don't need to read analogue clocks any more than they need to read a sundial (useful to know, perhaps, but practically useless in modern life). Did you know that's where "clockwise" comes from? The movement of the shadow around a sundial.

      My only problem with this is that the LONG HAND should, intuitively, be MORE IMPORTANT than the short hand, which to my mind means they are backwards.

      And then you get "second" hands, and they are often longer than the short hand but shorter than the long hand, just to make things even more confusing.

      Like cursive, analogue clocks just need to die. And I have zero problems reading them. I just think they need to die.

      P.S. I work in schools, always have.

      1. ibmalone

        Re: Analogue clocks

        My only problem with this is that the LONG HAND should, intuitively, be MORE IMPORTANT than the short hand, which to my mind means they are backwards.

        It sort of makes sense, but if you followed this logic then the hour is longest, the minute is intermediate and the second is shortest, making it hard to read the seconds (the fastest moving one with precision). The hour hand moves slowest and the higher precision part of the hour hand is supplied by the minute hand, so having the hour short means you can read the approximate hour and then the higher precision minute more easily.

      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge
        Coat

        Re: Analogue clocks

        "which to my mind means they are backwards."

        Then they'd be anti-clockwise.

        I think there's a cuckoo clock in one of these pockets.

        1. Inventor of the Marmite Laser Silver badge

          Re: Analogue clocks

          It's turnwise and widdershins and don't you forget it!

          Clockwise/anticlockwise indeed

          Millennium hand and foot, buggerm buggrit

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Analogue clocks

            You're obviously not from these parts. "et sic per cursum solis" - copy of about 1600 of a local bounds description from the time of Edward II. Internal evidence suggests it was a Latin translation of an English account.

      3. NXM Silver badge

        Analogue clocks need to die?

        No. Just no.

        In evidence I present the new British Rail clock design, a thing of such beauty I will buy one as soon as they become available to the public.

        https://www.networkrail.co.uk/stories/a-new-timepiece-for-the-railway/

        1. GlenP Silver badge

          Re: Analogue clocks need to die?

          I'm disappointed it's not available for Apple Watch, only Android.

        2. Anonymous Custard Silver badge
          Headmaster

          Re: Analogue clocks need to die?

          I see that, and historically raise you this one

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Analogue clocks need to die?

            Or more recently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sector_clock

        3. The Organ Grinder's Monkey Bronze badge

          Re: Analogue clocks need to die?

          That new BR clock is beautiful, I agree, but I'm puzzled as to why the arrows jump to the bottom having met at the top when they could just continue sweeping round like a second hand?

          Also, I still haven't forgiven them for taking out the old Solari (iirc) flip clocks. I used to love the clattering noise they made at midnight. I'd have one at home but the other half hates the sound of all mechanical clocks, says it just makes her aware of her life going past. I managed to get one of the master clocks from a local telephone exchange installed here when they were taken out of service, but I'm not often allowed to run it.

      4. gerryg

        Re: Analogue clocks

        What I like about analogue clocks is that they provide additional information instantly, such a "how long until". All a digital display does is display time.

        Take chess clocks, a quick glance Intuits how your time management is going without further calculation.

        Although digital clocks manage Fischer time better (off topic: I use that term because I'm not a chess player and they don't like Fischer even though he invented it)

        1. Richard 12 Silver badge
          Boffin

          Re: Analogue clocks

          The reason analogue clocks are ending is precision.

          We used to only really care about the nearest hour. The single pointer on a sundial or similar was plenty.

          Then we started caring about the nearest quarter hour, and needed a second pointer. That worked really well.

          Now my train leaves at 17:38.

          It's very difficult to see arbitrary times on a distant analogue clock with better precision than about ±3 minutes.

          Even if the marking are clear, parallax and mechanical wobble reduces the possible display precision of the moving pointer. It's no good if I see the minute hand pointing at 17:36 if the dispatcher along the platform sees 17:38.

          1. Terry 6 Silver badge

            Re: Analogue clocks

            Oh yes. Every year at exam time there will be some kid who'll argue that hehas another minute- because parallax and the exam officer's insistence that we use analogue clocks. (Buggred if I know why).

      5. DJO Silver badge

        Re: Analogue clocks

        Did you know that's where "clockwise" comes from? The movement of the shadow around a sundial.

        Typical hemispheric bias, sundial shadows go the other way in the southern hemisphere. (On or near the equator it's complicated, you need an armillary sphere.)

      6. Terry 6 Silver badge

        Re: Analogue clocks

        Cursive handwriting is at least useful ( it's quicker if you are writing rather than typing).

        Not only are analogue clocks obsolete, they have a problem (worse if there’s a seconds hand). The problem is that a quick glance sometimes results in errors. Because our perception isn't as good as we think it is. And our vision is as much created as observed. So sometime we see the hands/time wrong. We see the seconds hand and perceive it as the minutes hand. Or even mix the minutes and hour hand up, especially but not only when they're close together..

        Ironically, I love my analogue watches- an elegant Citizen Solar with a steel band, brown face with gold Roman numerals and fingers. also a rather old Seiko Solar with a blue face. And best of all my Bugs Bunny watch that is fairly useless for telling the time because of the very convex glass and the pictures in the quadrants.But I seldom use any of them for telling the time.

  3. DaveK23
    Facepalm

    After watching waaay too many VRChat trolling videos lately...

    ... the phrase "Oracle ERP" means something far, far worse to me than it does to you!

  4. Prst. V.Jeltz Silver badge

    As long as the users F**k up the data *after* its left The Warehouse thats ok.

    Its when they do it on the way in its a problem.

    1. Admiral Grace Hopper

      "It was fine when it left our router".

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I saw a headline that said Excel and fun. Just no, that's a special kind of masochist. Yes, been there before, the staff concerned couldn't count and I ended up locking all the calculations with a password to stop them putting in the wrong data manually.

    1. Bebu sa Ware Silver badge
      Devil

      "the perfect formula to make Excel misbehave"

      Double clicking the desktop Excel icon would be favourite.

      Actually any spreadsheet application. A diabolical device too subtly evil to have been devised by the devil.

    2. Roland6 Silver badge

      For spreadsheets that might leave my machine or which I want a high certainty the formula are unchanged, I have been locking cells and worksheets and using colour to highlight those cells a user can enter data into (*). This has been something I’ve been doing since the 1990s.

      (*) I have also made a habit of including the relevant password on each sheet, located outside of the defined print area. Yes, in the expectation stuff will be printed, I set the print area etc, so it prints nicely on A4 or A3. Whilst the setting of a password is overhead, it does also prevent me from making spur of the moment changes…

  6. Aladdin Sane Silver badge

    The number of people who've extracted data from one of my reports, averaged the percentages and then told me my that final numbers are wrong, coincidentally matches the number of times I've had to relay my patio.

    1. Roland6 Silver badge

      Is there something you wish to tell us? At least you probably know where all the bodies are…

      1. Aladdin Sane Silver badge

        Well, imagine a 10*10 gird, then follow the Sieve of Eratosthenes as above.

        1. Roland6 Silver badge

          I hope you remember the correct viewpoint: is that counting from: the house, the garden, the side passage or the neighbours…

          And the numbering convention you used (ie. Left-to-right, top-to-bottom etc.)

        2. Caver_Dave Silver badge

          Are you burying them vertically then?

          1. jake Silver badge

            Saves space in the Victory Garden. Plenty of calcium and goodness in the buggers.

            Spot the reference, win a pint.

      2. John Robson Silver badge

        Either that or he's looking for help digging a new potato patch.

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      You can't go far wrong with quicklime and a roll of carpet.

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Need to ensure the carpet is 100% natural fibre… Just need to frequent the house clearance emporiums…

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          The carpet is only for transport. Best to burn it afterwards.

      2. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge
        Devil

        You know better than that. we've advanced since then

        Woodchipper and compost heap.

        In any case , if you are going for the patio method of disposal, make sure to put down re-inforcing mesh, and use someone elses patio too

        1. Aladdin Sane Silver badge

          Woodchipper sprays DNA everywhere.

          You're always gonna have problems lifting a body in one piece. Apparently the best thing to do is cut up a corpse into six pieces and pile it all together. And when you got your six pieces, you gotta get rid of them, because it's no good leaving it in the deep freeze for your mum to discover, now is it? Then I hear the best thing to do is feed them to pigs. You got to starve the pigs for a few days, then the sight of a chopped-up body will look like curry to a pisshead. You gotta shave the heads of your victims, and pull the teeth out for the sake of the piggies' digestion. You could do this afterwards, of course, but you don't want to go sievin' through pig shit, now do you? They will go through bone like butter. You need at least sixteen pigs to finish the job in one sitting, so be wary of any man who keeps a pig farm. They will go through a body that weighs 200 pounds in about eight minutes. That means that a single pig can consume two pounds of uncooked flesh every minute. Hence the expression, "as greedy as a pig".

  7. GlenP Silver badge

    One I've had occasionally, and had to explain in detail to users, is averages of averages* in Excel pivot tables.

    People assume that if you have several entries for Average Price you can just take an average of that, which is only true if they all have the same sales quantity.

    I'm sure some of them still don't understand but do Sum of Value / Sum of Qty just to humour me!

    *Something I learnt about very early in my mathematical studies and have been wary of ever since!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Average of averages, bane of my life. Trying to explain to sales staff that just because they get an average of 40% profit from retail customers and 20% from wholesale customers doesn't mean their average profit will be 30% if 90% of their custoemers are wholesale.

      1. Terry 6 Silver badge

        "sales staff"?

        Sorry it's bosses that I had come across who don't get these things.

    2. Anonymous Custard Silver badge
      Trollface

      So in this case, does the concept of a weighted average indicate the heft of the 2x4 or baseball bat you need to use to get the concept across?

      1. Caver_Dave Silver badge

        My definition of stress "The inability to strangle some idiot who really deserves it!"

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          "the concept of a weighted average"

          You need to bear in mind that some users are undoubtedly weighted but well below average.

      2. Korev Silver badge
        Coat

        > So in this case, does the concept of a weighted average indicate the heft of the 2x4 or baseball bat you need to use to get the concept across?

        That's mean

        1. that one in the corner Silver badge

          Best applied to the median (sacral crest or, for the classic old-school approach, ridge of the patella).

        2. Anonymous Custard Silver badge
          Trollface

          That's mean

          Only if the clue-by-four has a nail in it to really get the point across (or in).

  8. blu3b3rry Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Had something like this once with a client

    Working in a factory, in a small separate department from the main business that did client manufacturing services.

    The client was American, and was a total nightmare to deal with - demanding, throwing the toys out of the pram when UK public holidays disrupted production schedules, insisting that all measurements be made in imperial rather than metric, etc....

    Our main point of contact was their "Principal Manager of Manufacturing and Process Engineering" who despite being a manager with his own department had no direct reports. The man had a masters degree in Chemical Engineering and a bunch of belts in Six Sigma (according to his email signature), so on paper a pretty bright cookie, right?

    We used to produce the product in batches of 75, and with process improvements (mostly by throwing more people at it) we increased the batch size to 100. No other changes were made.

    We used to produce a weekly spreadsheet of inspection pass/fail metrics. He sent an email at the end of the first week when we scaled up complaining that the failure percentage metric had gone up by 25%.

    75 to 100 is 25%.

    1. Chloe Cresswell Silver badge

      Re: Had something like this once with a client

      "insisting that all measurements be made in imperial rather than metric" Must be that rare part of the USA that adapted Imperial... ;)

      1. Bebu sa Ware Silver badge
        Coat

        Re: Had something like this once with a client

        '"insisting that all measurements be made in imperial rather than metric" Must be that rare part of the USA that adapted Imperial...'

        There are subtle and some not so subtle differences between the Imperial (avoidupois) and US Customary units which could have provided fertile material for malicious compliance.

        The American recalcitrance on adopting an otherwise universal system of units (with whatever faults that system might possess) only confirms the world's opinion of the rather limited intellectual capabilities of the US populace and its congenital pigheadness (with apologies to pig·kind.)

        1. ttlanhil

          Re: Had something like this once with a client

          The problem isn't that the US didn't go with metric

          It's that they officially support both metric and customary

          In some technical fields they're metric, and all customary units are defined in terms of SI (because SI base units have a strong definition, making them useful as the basis for derived units)

          Of course, refusing to settle on a single standard is probably a bigger problem (but the US is not alone in using things like miles and feet) - and occasionally you run into a problem like programming a Mars lander where some of the code (or data) is in meters and some in feet...

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Had something like this once with a client

            "some of the code (or data) is in meters and some in feet"

            On the principle that metres are straight and meters are round does that mean the landers have nice round feet at the end of their legs?

        2. Chloe Cresswell Silver badge

          Re: Had something like this once with a client

          In my first job, a friend of the boss got the option on some inkjet photo paper.

          It was a "don't touch it yourself" type job: he got the offer on it, lined up a buyer, and had it shipped directly to them.

          Issue was, he was in the UK, the buyer was in the US, and he didn't know the US didn't use imperial, so he filled the customs forms out in tons (imp), not tons (us).

          I'll let you imagine the slap US customs gave him when 1.2X the stated amount on the paperwork actually arrived.

          1. KittenHuffer Silver badge

            Re: Had something like this once with a client

            And the bigger slap from the customer when they were expecting US Letter and got A4 instead!

            1. Chloe Cresswell Silver badge

              Re: Had something like this once with a client

              The customer knew it was A4.

              They didn't care, they were getting it at like, 25% of the retail price and had a use for it.

        3. M.V. Lipvig Silver badge

          Re: Had something like this once with a client

          Just because you aren't smart enough to use both seamlessly... Seems to me that people who can use and interchange between multiple measurement systems with barely a second thought would be more intelligent than people who can only handle one and flip out when they see something different.

          1. doublelayer Silver badge

            Re: Had something like this once with a client

            The person who knows whether to do something can be smarter than the person who can and does without considering that. I can use both systems. I can use a third system if you just make it up. But I will ask for reasons, and unless you can provide some good ones, I won't because there are many downsides.

            1. Chloe Cresswell Silver badge

              Re: Had something like this once with a client

              "I can use a third system if you just make it up."

              A 3rd system? Metric, Imperial, US Customary? I can think of 3 directly.

              1. doublelayer Silver badge

                Re: Had something like this once with a client

                True, but I'd have thought even those advising mixing metric and one of the others would have the small amount of wisdom necessary not to recommend mixing imperial and US customary. Two systems with the same names for most of the units, some but not all of which are different, is a recipe for even more disaster than mixing grams and ounces. Grams, ounces, and centi-adult-badgers I can manage if the reasons are good enough.

                1. Chloe Cresswell Silver badge

                  Re: Had something like this once with a client

                  Most americans I know will tell you they use Imperial, then use US unit sizes.

    2. HXO

      Re: Had something like this once with a client

      Why are 'smart people' like that? We had some lab storage equipment, that used to have parameters logged manually every few hours. I automated it and logged every few minutes (more sensible considering the mass). Then I got complaints, that auditors complained the number of out-of-bounds readings had gone way up. Duh!

      1. Korev Silver badge
        Facepalm

        Re: Had something like this once with a client

        I once worked for a company whose software stored metadata with each lab result, one customer made their database run like a dog by putting in temperature to IIRC 5 decimal places. The DB was designed for storing a few 10s or 100s of value in here and you can imagine how big it got.

    3. DaveK23
      WTF?

      75 to 100 is 25%.

      I make it 33%, so it seems like your failure metric actually improved. By about... erm... roughly 25%!?

      1. Prst. V.Jeltz Silver badge

        Re: 75 to 100 is 25%.

        this is whats always slightly confused me with percentages

        75 plus 33% is 100

        100 minus 25% is 75

        It depends which way you're coming at it.

        I'd still be fascinated to know what Trump means by "Drugs are down 600%"

        Presumably he means they are now at the price that if you increased it by 600% you'd arrive at the old price , but thats being too kind when we know he is just pulling these biger and biogger numbers out of his ass

        1. KittenHuffer Silver badge
          Boffin

          Re: 75 to 100 is 25%.

          An increase of 33.3333% is equivalent to multiplying by 1.333333 (100% + 33.3333% = 133.3333%).

          A decrease of 25% is equivalent to multiplying by 0.75 (100% - 25% = 75%)

          The relationship between those two numbers if that 1.333333 = 1/0.75.

          So if you convert percentages to straight multiplication values you can calculated to reverse value by taking the reciprical of the original multiplication value.

          1. Prst. V.Jeltz Silver badge

            Re: 75 to 100 is 25%.

            you can calculated to reverse value by taking the reciprical of the original multiplication value.

            Sounds useful!

            So could you use that information to find out what Trump meant by "down 600%" assuming he was talking backwards on a pack of pills that pre reduction cost , say ,$15 ?

            1. KittenHuffer Silver badge

              Re: 75 to 100 is 25%.

              I'm sorry. I take the default position that anything that spews from the mouth of Agent Orange is factually incorrect. It's just so much simpler than constantly checking, only to find that I've wasted my time by proving to myself that he is the master of the big lie.

          2. doublelayer Silver badge

            Re: 75 to 100 is 25%.

            I think one confusion people tend to have is that many percentages are reported without being entirely clear on what number the percentage is taken from. When someone reports a 20% increase in the past month, the most natural assumption is that it went from 1x a month ago to 1.2x now, but they might have also calculated it as 1y now and 0.8y then, which in the previous system would be a 25% increase. Both things can be clearly stated: "The number increased by 20% compared to a month ago" or "20% of the increase in the current number occurred in the past month", but I've grown to know that when someone just says "20% increase", it could end up being either of those.

        2. Excused Boots Silver badge

          Re: 75 to 100 is 25%.

          Percentage changes absolutely rely on the initial value.

          OK, as an example let’s take a fairly extreme example, I sell a product for $100 and due to tariffs etc, I need to increase costs by 50%. Now does everyone agree that 50% is half of the initial cost so $50? Therefore the new price for my product is $150. Yes, everyone with me?

          You are then instructed to reduce the price by the same 50%, so it should go back to the original $100, no? Absolutely not.

          We are now looking at 50% of the new price ($150) and half of that is $75, so I reduce the price from $150 by $75 so the new price is $125.

          Hang on how can this be right, says Trump and/or the MAGA crowd, you increased by a certain percentage and reduced by the same amount so it has to be same.

          Let me introduce you to basic mathematics, which actually doesn’t obey 'Exectutive Orders’ or, indeed any sort of legislation.

        3. The Organ Grinder's Monkey Bronze badge

          Re: 75 to 100 is 25%.

          "he pulls numbers out of his ass"

          He gets his numbers from a donkey? That explains a lot.

        4. C R Mudgeon Silver badge
          WTF?

          Re: 75 to 100 is 25%.

          "I'd still be fascinated to know what Trump means by "Drugs are down 600%""

          It means he thinks it makes him look good, no more and no less. Just like every other single thing that comes out of his mouth.

          Don't try to make it make sense; that's a mug's game.

    4. that one in the corner Silver badge

      Re: Had something like this once with a client

      > He sent an email at the end of the first week when we scaled up complaining that the failure percentage metric had gone up by 25%.

      Isn't the "failure percentage metric" == percent of the product that failed? If a batch of 75 has 25* failures then you have a failure percentage of 33%** If you had the same failure percentage and a batch size of 100, you'd expect 33 failures.

      If the failure percentage went up by 25% then that rate is now 41%

      If that change is also when your batch size went from 75 to 100, you are now getting 41 failures per batch instead of 25 per batch.

      > ... 75 to 100 is 25%

      Perhaps the first failure is in thinking that "Failure percentage metric" actually involved percentages?

      Maybe the metric really have been called "Absolute failures per batch"?

      "What we've got here is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach".

      * not saying yours were anything like that bad, just want to play with a few figures here

      ** figures liable to crude rounding

    5. Terry 6 Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: Had something like this once with a client

      Ohhh God. Please don't take me back there. People who can't differentate between pecentages and percentage points.

  9. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

    How many excel users does it take to mark a column as numeric?

    1/0/1900

    (The post is required, and must contain letters.)

    1. KittenHuffer Silver badge

      Re: How many excel users does it take to mark a column as numeric?

      How many MS software developers does it take to change a light bulb?

      They don't .... they just redefine the standard to darkness!

      1. KittenHuffer Silver badge

        Re: How many excel users does it take to mark a column as numeric?

        How many software developers does it take to change a light bulb?

        Nah! That's a hardware problem!

        1. Strahd Ivarius Silver badge
          Joke

          Re: How many excel users does it take to mark a column as numeric?

          Nah or NaN?

          Or even #N/A?

    2. Korev Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: How many excel users does it take to mark a column as numeric?

      I'll tell you on Sept2

      1. Mast1

        Re: How many excel users does it take to mark a column as numeric?

        But what about external conversions of numbers read from an Excel sheet? I met one where rounding precision had left a number as something like -3e-15. This had been MANUALLY converted by A.N.Other as -3,-15.

      2. ecofeco Silver badge

        Re: How many excel users does it take to mark a column as numeric?

        I had forgotten all about that one!

        Good reminder!

  10. goblinski Silver badge
  11. Tim99 Silver badge
    Windows

    Excel

    Used by spreadsheet jockeys to monitor company performance, make projections, and to decide that somebody needs to be fired to increase profits. Estimates are that perhaps 50% have (minor?) errors, or possibly more. I found it difficult to trust a program that told me that 1900 was a leap-year; and that statistical formulae used 2-tails when it was obvious that to get the correct result, 1-tail was needed - without giving the option.

  12. DaveK23
    Happy

    Four pages of comments!

    You can tell it must be Friday!

  13. Blackjack Silver badge

    100 Minutes hours? Sounds something a Ceo would invent.

    Really wish I was joking here.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Especially a CEO who thinks you're slacking if you work less than 90 hours a week.

  14. C R Mudgeon Silver badge

    Centihours

    "I had to explain to the user that to get billable time in hours you must divide by 60 not 100," Albert recalled. And that's why the numbers were out by about a third!"

    GCOS-3 (Honeywell's mainframe OS) used to display the time on its operator console in decimal hours. It would have displayed 15:20:00 as "15.333".

    And batch jobs were accounted for in "centihours" -- their word, not mine.

    All to save a convert-to-HH:MM:SS routine in the kernel. I mean, memory was super tight back then, but geez!

    1. Luiz Abdala
      Joke

      Re: Centihours

      Centihours feels the same as looking at decimal inches instead of fractional inches.

  15. Luiz Abdala
    Coat

    Well, when you are dying to leave for the day, every hour has 100 minutes, so...

    I will get my coat and wait another 40 minutes between 4:58 and 5:00 pm.

  16. goblinski Silver badge

    Not sure what changes were made to the site, but:

    - The bookmarks that I had (painstakingly) figured out for On Call and Who, Me, no longer work. To name them:

    https://www.theregister.com/Tag/Who%2C Me%3F/

    https://www.theregister.com/Tag/on-call

    - A search in the website by On Call or Who, Me returns nothing.

    - The different On Call and Who, Me articles are now tagged by their relevant fields (Software, Security), which makes them completely diluted in the rest of the content.

    If this is to stay, please comment on this, and advise on how to find older articles from these two for future reference. Thanks

    1. goblinski Silver badge

      Whew :)

      I see they now appeared as their own tags on the top right. Thanks for that.

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