Apple's chips are the core of a new landscape, but its biggest win is Windows

When the first M1 Apple Silicon systems sprouted at the end of 2020, we loved the tech but not the walled garden it grew in. Apple had complete control over all its platforms and could set its own rules, but only to become more Apple-y. There was a whole world outside that area where Apple Silicon would never tread, even if …

[lglethal]

This is a good article, although it conveniently ignores the third player in the space - Linux.

Whilst the percentage varies, very much varies depending on which source of data you use, it generally sits between 15-30% of desktop/laptop PCs.

Same hardware as Windows minus the bloat. There are many things I dont like about Linux - the on-boarding procedure is crap, certain things which are taken for granted in Windows (or Mac) are not included as default in Linux, but as an alternative it is there, and does appear to be eating some of Microsoft's lunch. Not a lot, and the article is probably right, more people will jump ship for Mac, but that is a self-selecting group with higher income than the majority. For the rest, jumping the other way, to Linux, would make more sense.

But unfortunately, Linux has not entirely lost its image of being purely for the grey beard techy. Pity...

[theOtherJT]

It's a catastrophe for Linux adoption that the stupid "AI" memory gold-rush has sunk the Steam Machine on price at just the time that Valve really had a compelling device to sell us.

Hard as it is for a lot of us commentards to accept, people like corporate entities. They make them feel safe. They like buying things way more than they like owning them. There's this lingering sense of "No one ever got fired for buying IBM" even if that's no longer true, and many of the people buying things are too young to have even heard it. The impression remains. Something you buy is of superior quality than something you get for free, and - possibly more importantly - you have a bunch of consumer protection laws to fall back on if it doesn't do what it says on the box.

Valve were poised to sell Linux to the masses. Sure, everyone's about to say "Oh, but the SteamDeck did tiny numbers!" and that's true, but it's also a pretty niche device - a portable gaming PC is kinda an odd thing. Handhelds don't do as well as consoles - doubly so in this age of gaming capable smartphones. I think the PSP sold something like 75 million units - half what the PS2 did.

Anyone who lived through the 80s home computing boom knows that gaming is a gateway drug. We bought home micros to play games on - the fact that they did other things wasn't a terribly large part of the equation - but over time the general-purpose-ness (sorry) of the things reeled us further and further in.

Games consoles are very popular. Games consoles that are also multi-media centres and web browsers became even more popular, much easier to convince the other half / parents to let you have one in the living room if it does more than play games. Once it starts doing everything a PC can do it'll be even more popular again and I was totally poised to see an entire generation introduced to Linux on the QT (pun only some what intended) and by the time they got to the "We'll buy you your first computer of your very own" they won't want Windows or Mac because what they're used to is SteamOS and it already runs all their games.

I still think this is the most likely path to major adoption of Linux amongst the non-techie population. It's just a shame it appears to have been set back a few years. Again.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: People like buying things way more than they like owning them.

My immediate thought was that this opinion must be from the very west: The United States. Here you have 'Choose your plan' of which at lots of software vendors use: This lets my hairs in my neck raise, Oh do I hate that. I am sure that there is a limit what you can push through people 's throats when it comes to marketing and sales, and hell did Micro$oft and Adobe really past over that point for lots of people. Everybody tries to avoid it and about everyone around me hates this sh*t.

Where are the times of perpetual licences, and hence, decent business behaviour? Software vendors turned into money hunting crooks if you want my opinion.

In yesteryear when I started my career (as a hardware engineer, not software, sorry) one could buy programs with only a couple of thousand users. The programmers could live from that pretty well. But today you have a 'Choose your plan' clutter of misery. So today -indeed- the only way to go forward is MAC.

But the only one app (just one Windoze-XP app) I need badly on it, and that's PCAD. This is an old CAD for making PCB's: Have it from 2006 and it still works. RF design, high speed design, fine pitch SMT parts, I can still can do everything I want with it. But it died due to stupid merger decisions and it went onto a new owner, indeed a greedy Software vendor.... but hey, I can survive with this oldie App until I die... or finally take the step to KiCad when I am able to convert my libraries ;-)

The ony complaints from most users with MAC is their closed landscape and their "reverse design" of its icons. (search for Reddit note: "If you put the Apple icons in reverse it looks like ... ;-) Their icons design really is a mess.... please, Cupertino, let your users choose ;-)

[theOtherJT]

Re: People like buying things way more than they like owning them.

Wat?

[CrazyOldCatMan]

Re: People like buying things way more than they like owning them.

I need badly on it, and that's PCAD. This is an old CAD for making PCB's:

Crossover (paid) or WINE (Free)?

Both pretty good, even at running old 32-bit apps on Apple Silicon

[CatsRule]

Linux... I've heard of it...

The Macbook Neo - is aimed at those folks who want it to just work - get out of the way of doing stuff; its likely to virally kill the Chromebooks and low end Windows market segments where "making it work for the lowest cost" is No.1 - I'm presuming to support the iPhone/Apple services where margin must be significant.

I still have my RedHat install book/floppies and used a Linux desktop/laptop for many years, at work and personal - but its all server stuff now.

Mac's have their problems but less than they did (e.g. corrupted HFS); look at them as BSD UNIX, install MacPorts (or Brew) for development; understand OpenBSD or FreeBSD and they are very good tools for the job - for desktop and mobile - with equivalent price points for high end kit - and if you need - take it to an Apple shop - where they actually have "human" technical staff who can help (really) mostly for free.

[hoola]

Re: Linux... I've heard of it...

One of the reasons they can fix stuff "For free" is the huge margins that Apple have.

You pays your money and takes your choice however this is retail users. For businesses it is very different.

In my experience if one is using decent business quality hardware then the actual physical failures are few. If you compare a cheap laptop at with an expensive laptop of any type things break, the OS is immaterial.

My experience is with HP and it has been excellent. Based on what the End User Teams say on an estate of 20k devices the Apple ones are no better than the HP.

The OS is a different issue, we have Windows, iOS & Linux. The ones that cause the greatest issues are Linux and that is because of the type of users/iOS. They are incapable of just using the device and persist in tweaking stuff or needed "special cases" that increase the overhead or risk of issues. Apple laptops were seen as the "go-to" device originally because they were not managed, once they were managed people stopped requesting them and the proportion compared to Windows dropped.

[Jurassic.Hermit]

Re: Linux... I've heard of it...

"One of the reasons they can fix stuff "For free" is the huge margins that Apple have."

Correct, but as a consumer I am buying a product and I expect a decent level of service.

If I buy a car, I don't want to be left alone reading manuals and trying to understand the issue and fixing it myself (I did plenty of that when I was a youngster). Why should owning a Windows PC be a totally sheety experience? I've used MS since DOS 6, some 4 decades ago. I CAN fix problems with Windows etc, but I don't particularly want to spend my time on it.

Windows 11 is a pile of crap. I've given up on it and recently bought my first Mac, a Mini. Wow, what a lovely, stable, very fast and smooth machine compared to my top-end Dell laptop which still ends up crawling when Windows Search kicks off in the background or some other flucked up Windows process that suddenly takes up 32Gb of my RAM.

I wanted to install Mint on the Dell laptop rather than going for the Mac, but the available kernel and drivers aren't fully capable of running my device. I decided to not wait 6-12 months for Mint to catch up and instead took a punt on the little Mac. Best computer purchasing decision I have made in a very long time. I'm sure I'm, not the only one saying this. The Neo is now in my sights for the occasions I need to do a bit of work remotely.

[Charlie Clark]

The price of the new Mac Neo is the main point of the article – though I paid less last year for a well-specc'd MacBook Air than an equivalent ThinkPad. I've just "upgraded" a 2010 MBP to Monterey courtesy of OpenCore. As it's got a DVD-Drive it's perfect for anyone wanting to rip CDs or DVDs to a library.

I switched to MacOS about 20 years ago and when SWMBO wanted a new machine, I said I'd only support Macs – neither of us have or want I-Phones or the rest of the crap but the combination of hardware and software on a Mac, at a "reasonable" price, could prove very tempting.

I think Google could use Android to eat Microsoft's lunch (and this would all but end Linux on the desktop) but I think they prefer to be largely a services company.

[Detective Emil]

It's easy to run a decent Linux on old Mx hardware

If you have an M1 or M2 Mac (or buy one second-hand — though prices are high for five-year-old kit) Asahi Linux.(a Debian derivative) is a doddle to install (from macOS), and is pretty wrinkle-free, particularly on laptops (provided you don't need Thunderbolt).

M3 to 5 are wrinklier, as the distro's submitters are still reverse-engineering those chips. But, if desperate, Linux runs well in a VM on newer kit.

[jailbird]

Re: It's easy to run a decent Linux on old Mx hardware

Uh, the flagship Asahi distribution is Fedora Asahi Remix, which as the name implies, is based on Fedora and NOT Debian. Yes, there are other distros, but that's the "big one".

[MachDiamond]

Re: It's easy to run a decent Linux on old Mx hardware

"But, if desperate, Linux runs well in a VM on newer kit."

Linux runs well enough on much older kit. I'm not that bothered if the newest hardware isn't supported as I'd not buy new to build a linux machine.

[vZeroG]

15-30% is not factually accurate at all. It's more like low to mid-single digit percentages. I want Linux to succeed as much as anyone else, but you have to be honest about where things actually stand today and the numerous challenges to further adoption in the consumer space.

[werdsmith]

Mac M laptops got me off Windows, as laptops were the last holdout. Then I find Mac Minis offer decent bang for buck and there is no longer a place for linux. There is np resistance to using a Macbook M. It starts up like a tablet, sips battery and does its stuff without fuss.

Despite the desperate evangilism on The Register comments from the Jeff Albertson types, linux is still pretty dogshit. The only thing that keeps me in the linux world is Rasberry Pi. When I want a server I start a FreeBSD VM.

"I've been using linux for 20 years and don't have any problem with it...."

....yes mate, because you've got 20 years experience.

[DS999]

I've run Linux on my personal PCs since 1997

generally sits between 15-30% of desktop/laptop PCs

Exactly what drugs are you on? Unless you count Chromebooks (which are even more locked down than a Mac) Linux is a low single digit percentage and even with it doesn't reach anywhere near 15% let alone 30%! No one sane claims Linux has a double digit share of the PC market.

Despite using Linux on my desktops/laptops for nearly 30 years I would never recommend Linux to a "normal" (non techie inclined) person. They'd be miserable, and go running back to Windows (I say Windows because Mac users aren't looking for alternative platforms to escape to)

The biggest problem with Linux from the standpoint of someone new to the platform is that you have to install it yourself, because you it is almost impossible to buy a PC with Linux preinstalled (and when you can, it is probably not the distro you'd want) Installing Windows is no picnic either, even if you get the base OS installed heaven help you if the drivers it came with didn't include ones that handle your networking so it is a brick until you can track them down elsewhere else to put on a USB key) so that's not a Linux only issue.

You can get past that hurdle by having someone else do it for you, but the first time something goes wrong they're going to go running back to that person for support because they won't find Linux help nearly so easily as you do Windows help on the web. Even with decades of Linux and general Unix/IT experience I find Linux MORE difficult and frustrating to fix when things go wrong today than a decade ago. I'm thinking I may abandon Fedora which I've been with since before it was called that, because I'm just over systemd's latest insanity of getting rid of text log files which makes the whole process way harder than it has to be. The idiot who created that has to be a Microsoft psy-op, there's no way anyone truly believes he did the Linux world a favor by giving us our very own equivalent of the registry!

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: I've run Linux on my personal PCs since 1997

" Installing Windows is no picnic either, even if you get the base OS installed heaven help you if the drivers it came with didn't include ones that handle your networking so it is a brick until you can track them down elsewhere else to put on a USB key) so that's not a Linux only issue."

It's even more "fun" when the Windows installer doesn't have drivers for the storage, so can't see the SSD. This never used to be a problem in the days of spinning drives as the Windows installer could always recognise them, but no longer. With our work laptops we have USB keys with the storage and network drivers on them, and plug them in at the time of installation. The average home user is not going to be able to cope with the concept of going to the laptop manufacturer's website, downloading the storage driver, extracting it, and then copying the correct folder (most of the extracted files aren't needed - it's just one subfolder) to the USB stick, then loading it in at the drive selection screen of the Windows installer.

[Sandtitz]

Re: I've run Linux on my personal PCs since 1997

"This never used to be a problem in the days of spinning drives as the Windows installer could always recognise them"

Rubbish. IDE drives have always worked but even Windows XP needed drivers for SATA drives in native mode, for example. Not to mention the numerous RAID/SCSI adapters and their drivers.

"With our work laptops we have USB keys with the storage and network drivers on them, and plug them in at the time of installation."

Dell and HP business laptops have for years had an option to restore Windows from BIOS, using LAN / WLAN. You can also host your own image repository.

Both also offer recovery images tailored for their models. Simple install wizards as the recovery media is downloaded and copied to USB stick you boot the laptop with.

[kmorwath]

Re: I've run Linux on my personal PCs since 1997

True, but this is a problem most users do not encounter because they get a PC with Windows preinstalled with all required drivers (and a restore disk, or it could be created). This is an issue only for people butyng a PC without the OS, or building their own one, and using hardware for which the Windows installer has no drivers yet - but these are usually users who know what they are doing (or are learning....).

Any decent Windows sysadmin will build a slipstream install image with additional required drivers.

RAID/SCSI drivers for specific adatpters are mostly a server setup, rarely a desktop issue (and almost never a laptop one). One issue commonly encountered was the lack of the NIC driver.

[DS999]

Re: I've run Linux on my personal PCs since 1997

Typically those "recovery images" are in a special hidden partition. You have to know it is there to access it, and how many typical PC customers do you think that might be?

[Sandtitz]

Re: I've run Linux on my personal PCs since 1997

"Typically those "recovery images" are in a special hidden partition."

This was the case circa 2000-2015, but I think most manufacturers have stopped this. They just point out to their own tools to download recover media because we're out of the dial-up era now.

What I was talking about with the "LAN/WLAN" part in my post was that Dell/HP BIOS has functionality to download the recovery media and install it automatically to a blank drive. Similar to macOS Recovery.

"You have to know it is there to access it, and how many typical PC customers do you think that might be?"

Very few would know it, and in that case most people are stumped. Usually the storage drive has bitten dust anyway, so they can't fix it.

But when they call the manufacturer's hotline - or their nephew - it is way easier to walk them through than asking them to prepare a recovery USB drive on another computer they may not even have.

[hoola]

Re: I've run Linux on my personal PCs since 1997

This argument about drivers on Windows is dodgy to say the least. For something to not work it has to be a real edge case.

This will also be the same for Linux.

Even then as long as there is a display (there will be!) and some form of network connection (very unlikely not to be on a new device) then you can fix it.

If it is the only device you have then it begs the question why you have something that is so far removed from standard hardware in the first place.

[LybsterRoy]

Re: I've run Linux on my personal PCs since 1997

-- They'd be miserable, and go running back to Windows --

Normal users possibly using a browser and email maybe a little WP / spreadsheet. If that's a good enough description of a normal user I've converted several and none have become miserable and run back to Windows.

[Jimjam3]

Some good points raised.

I have a Win 10 PC (1 year extended support) a Linux Mint PC and a 27 inch iMac and the fact I have a lot of PC games on Windows is the only reason I still power up that machine.

Come end of support I’ll either air gap it or put SteamOS on it.

[Blackjack]

I love Linux but if you study or work you are usually forced to use Windows or Mac.

[LybsterRoy]

-- But unfortunately, Linux has not entirely lost its image of being purely for the grey beard techy. Pity. --

Even more of a pity is the fact that you still need to be a techy (grey beard optional) to do some, what should be, simple things. eg updating some software requires a substantial effort especially when you have to start adding repositories.

[hairydog]

There is no way that any of our PCs will go to Windows11, so some are living out the last months of Win10 support, others have already made the switch to Zorin.

No complaints from users moved to Zorin. A seamless transition in every case so far.

The result: a faster, quieter machine with better hardware support. Some obsolete peripherals have come back off the shelf.

The only downside is that the names of the apps are changed. That only takes a short while to get used to.

Personally, I've had trouble getting good drivers for certain colour printers on Zorin, but those printers don't work on Win10 either.

[CrazyOldCatMan]

This is a good article, although it conveniently ignores the third player in the space - Linux

While I'm a linux fan (been using it since the pre v1 Slackware days) even I realise that the mass home takeup of linux is unlikely. Yes, you might be able to play a subset of Steam/GOG games on linux (but you can play far more on MacOS) but one crucial thing you can't do is use MS Office.

Mr & Ms Average isn't going to want to have to learn a new Office suite just to get away from Windows. They will want to be able to edit docs/spreadsheets in the tools that are familiar and, potentially email them to people who can read them without converting them (or going "what the hell did you use to write this?").

So, unless MS produce a version of Office365 for Linux (slightly less chance than Trump becoming rational) it's never going to be a mass-appeal home OS.

And yes, the MacOS interface is a bit different, but it's similar enough that people will quite quickly get used to it.

(I speak as someone that uses Windows for work, MacOS for home desktop and Linux, Windows & FreeBSD for home servers.)

[TVU]

"Every year of Apple Silicon, the experience of using a Mac has gotten better. Every year of Windows 11, the experience of using a PC has gotten worse"

^ I fully agree with you and some of the issues concerned with Windows 11 include unnecessary and unwanted cruft being added all the time plus untested updates that bork people's computers. Microsoft are starting to show some signs that they realise that they have a problem such as providing more freedom over the interface layout.

That said, it is too little, too late and I suspect that Statcounter will report an increase in macOS market share over the next few months at the expense of Windows 11. It is also worth reminding everyone that Microsoft should never have broken its promise to continue with a rolling release Windows 10 and that is one of Satya Nadella's worst ever mistakes.

[Anonymous Coward]

"It is also worth reminding everyone that Microsoft should never have broken its promise to continue with a rolling release Windows 10"

That tired old claim yet again! It was an off-the-cuff comment by one member of staff in a presentation. There was never any official Microsoft 'promise' that it would continue with a rolling Windows 10 release indefinitely. The UI was inevitably going to change sooner or later - whether it was called W10 or W10 doesn't really make much difference

I should clarify that I'm no fan of the way the Windows UI has evolved in recent years (especially all the AI crap), but whether or not it had a new version name, it was always going to change at some point: UIs do not remain static indefinitely.

[Justthefacts]

Why?

“The UI was inevitably going to change sooner or later”

Why exactly? W11 is not importantly different to W10 or 7, other than pointless fettling UI changes. W8 tried to do something different….and people didn’t want what it did,

IOS is also undergoing this pointless fettling UI change, for no good reason. It’s really neither better nor worse, it’s change for the sake of change.

[werdsmith]

Re: Why?

IOS is also undergoing this pointless fettling UI change

Why are you bringing phones and tablets into this? There hasn't been a deluge of complaints about 26.x on iphones. People just don't care.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Why?

What are you smoking? There have been a lot of complaints about iOS 26.x and also about Tahoe on the desktop. Particular Liquid Ass.

[VeryRealHuman]

Re: Why?

There have been a lot of complaints from techy people like us, but the reality is people don't care. It took my mum 5 minutes of staring at iOS 18 and 26 side-by-side to say "Oh yeah, that is a bit different"

[doublelayer]

Re: Why?

My anecdotal experience is different. I've heard plenty of people complain about the change in design of IOS 26 who dislike the appearance or have become lost with moving controls. Of course, they usually figure out where the buttons have moved and deal with it easily enough, but that's also true of the UI changes in Windows 11; I may not like that there's a two-level context menu now in Explorer, but it didn't take me very long to figure out how to use it.

Either way, UI changes, usually for no reason other than it's been a few years since it was last changed, users don't like it, many figure out how to put up with it, and a few have to be talked through it. I'd be fine if people figured out something that worked and just stopped there, but history suggests that's not going to happen.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Why?

"Why exactly? W11 is not importantly different to W10 or 7, other than pointless fettling UI changes. W8 tried to do something different….and people didn’t want what it did,"

Because that's what happens! Sure, the changes are often not an improvement but every single OS which has had a reasonable lifespan has seen major changes to its UI along the way. Expecting Windows to suddenly stop changing at W10 was never a remotely realistic prospect.

[tiggity]

Re: Why?

@AC "every single OS which has had a reasonable lifespan has seen major changes to its UI along the way"

But that does not mean UI changes are good.

Every person who has had a reasonable lifespan will have seen their health & physical & mental performance deteriorate - if you ask them I doubt they will say* that is a good thing (even though, unlike UI changes, it is inevitable & unavoidable).

Change for change sake is irritating (& can impact productivity, e.g. as mentioned the right click W11 context menu, you now have to go multiple layers deep to do things that were available just 1 layer down so it slows people not by a huge amount per individual, but multiply that by all the users....

[Charlie Clark]

I remember seeing the EULA promising "lifetime" support. It very much was supposed to be the "last" Windows version but I think this included a desire to switch to SaaS, or ads, or both to fund it. Whatever, it's still the gateway drug to sell their cash cows to unsuspecting users.

[Anonymous Coward]

'Lifetime' is one of those vague terms which can mean whatever those writing it want it to mean! Most often the lifetime of whatever-it-is is set by those producing it, who might decide that it's 5 years, or whatever.

Can you point to any documentation which claims that it was going to be the 'last' version of Windows? I've never seen any and I think you will find that Microsoft has been very careful never to make these sort of claims in writing.

[Anonymous Coward]

"That tired old claim yet again! It was an off-the-cuff comment by one member of staff in a presentation. There was never any official Microsoft 'promise' that it would continue with a rolling Windows 10 release indefinitely. The UI was inevitably going to change sooner or later - whether it was called W10 or W10 doesn't really make much difference"

No, sorry you are wrong - that claim was backed subsequently by Microsoft:

“Recent comments at Ignite about Windows 10 are reflective of the way Windows will be delivered as a service bringing new innovations and updates in an ongoing manner, with continuous value for our consumer and business customers,” says a Microsoft spokesperson in a statement to The Verge. “We aren’t speaking to future branding at this time, but customers can be confident Windows 10 will remain up-to-date and power a variety of devices from PCs to phones to Surface Hub to HoloLens and Xbox. We look forward to a long future of Windows innovations.”

Source: https://www.theverge.com/2015/5/7/8568473/windows-10-last-version-of-windows

And Mr Nadella came out with some other classic comments at Windows 10's launch (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33698290):

Speaking about possible privacy concerns, Mr Nadella took aim at companies like Google who use data to sell advertising.

"One of the foundational pieces of making anything more personal is trust," he said.

"We're not trying to sell you advertising, we're trying to in fact sell you software or devices so you as a user can trust it, that it's working on your behalf.

"I as a consumer may want to sometimes trade off my data to get a free service, and that's ok. But it's the other users of that same data - that is where trust matters.

"I absolutely want Microsoft to be trustworthy. How consumers make choices between companies, I'll leave it to them."

[Anonymous Coward]

In the first quote, it specifically states that they "aren't speaking to future branding at this time" - I.e. they are making no commitment that there won't be new versions names.

The second quote doesn't make any claims along these lines either.

[Ilgaz]

It is old fashioned, horribly unscientific but...

I couldn't make myself purchase a x86 Laptop just weeks ago because of the elephant in the room, Windows. My main OS is and always will be Linux however let's say I want to watch 4K streaming from Netflix/HBO? I want to edit a photo professionally with minimum work? All will happen in Windows, trust me I did really crazy things just to prevent me from dual booting to Windows with all that fan noise, nothing helps.

If I buy a Mac M4/M5, I can use a *nix Desktop and still use Linux with full screen VM trickery. If I buy x86, every company assumes I can dual boot. Also things like old fashioned Hollywood suits not allowing Linux to play HD because "it is what haxors use" drama will never end, even if some Linux does the most blasphemic thing as shipping a HDCP compliant desktop.

TLDR; Check Amazon top 10 laptops, no matter which country you are in. Windows laptops are in a true, massive crisis which never happened before.

[DJ_]

If only Linux was as simple...

Been around years as a lurker but first time commentard so be gentle please. Anyway...

Going to comment here after being tempted to multiple times on other 'year of Linux desktop' articles and conversations.

I have an old but lovely ThinkPad T410 and wanted a simple laptop for use at another property. It was previously on Win 8.1 Pro out of necessity but that is no good for obvious 'out of date' reasons and I have lost all love for Windows with 11 probably being the last I will ever tolerate for work or home.

I tried all flavours of Linux Mint - which many recommend as a starting point. Every single one had some flaw - sound not working (or too quiet to hear), repeatedly crashing, incapable of managing the battery charging state. Same with MX Linux - which I *really* wanted to like. All versions - XCFE/KDE/Fluxbox displayed some irritating issue or multiple. Often with the GUI settings having zero bearing on/background link to things you were trying to change.

And before anyone here lectures me - yeah sure I looked on forums. Many of them. Where inexplicably many other folk were having exact same issues in big numbers across multiple brand laptops but these things never get fixed. They certainly often don't get definitive workarounds. I got down and dirty with CLI but many recommendations didn't solve the problem, and even worse the various flavour Linux forums seems to have plenty of people more happy to argue amongst themselves over the "right" answers to these various problems whilst entirely ignoring the sea of those who wanted help in the first place saying "what you've said doesn't work".

I can't remember what the issue was now (I tried so many types of Linux and lost my list of "issues with each version") but Ubuntu MATE had problems as well. I finally settled on Ubuntu Cinnamon 24.04 LTS which, while it locks up completely every now and then, I am very pleased with and it does the job well. It's a lovely OS and I've been happy to donate.

What is the point I am struggling to make here? I had the time to 'play' side of desk. I have just enough technical skills to follow CLI "fight with the OS" instructions over bash. And I was getting to the point of giving up and shoving Win 10 on it. When Linux works on the desktop it's superb (Mint looked great but had too many niggles). But I'd say the vast majority of folk just need something that works. Even those with the tech skills don't have the time to battle multiple issues when they just need to shove an OS on a laptop and get on with life.

Which immediately stop it being something that the masses can just embrace over MacOS. Or even Windows. And not sure that will ever fundamentally change will it?

[Cubbie Roo]

Re: If only Linux was as simple...

For every 'linux is buggy' complaint there are many many more folks using it as a daily driver with no issues whatsoever. And it continues to get better; Arch (and most of its derivatives) are so solid now there's literally no reason opting for Ubuntu-based distros for some expectation of better 'reliability'.

[doublelayer]

Re: If only Linux was as simple...

What use is that comment? If you're going to respond to anyone reporting problems switching to Linux with comments that either say "your problem isn't real" or "I don't have your problem so I can't be bothered", you can't act surprised when Linux doesn't get adopted because anyone who has any problem will decide that it evidently doesn't work for them and abandons it. These kind of problems are very annoying to solve because, even if I want to spend the time on each one, I have to track down the exact combination of hardware and software involved to identify what went wrong or whether it was user error, find the fix, try to do something so I don't just tell each user to run these opaque scripts and maybe it gets fixed long-term, then start again on the next report. I don't really want to do that, so I only rarely try.

Maybe we should just not care whether the general public adopts open source software. That's definitely easier. But if we are going to do that, we should stop pretending we still care and recognize the loss of the network effects that their presence could provide.

[Cubbie Roo]

Re: If only Linux was as simple...

I don't care what people adopt either way, and the Linux ecosystem might be better served if it remains somewhat niche on the desktop anyway. Since most Linux issues I see are down to botched installs / human error it just seems a little unfair to blame the ecosystem itself.

[werdsmith]

Re: If only Linux was as simple...

If the installs are easy to botch then it is the ecosystem. Installation should be autonomous and simple.

[Cubbie Roo]

Re: If only Linux was as simple...

The botching is mostly folks trying to repurpose their old Winboxes and not following a few simple pre-install steps, or trying to dual boot & screwing their partitions. In both cases this is user error not a Linux 'feature'.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: If only Linux was as simple...

Your "folks...not following a few simple pre-install steps" comment very much sums up the sort of thing I first encounter when trying to get Linux to work on an old dell desktop.

Linux shouldn't have to depend on esoteric preinstall steps (i.e. it should handle this stuff as part of the main install) and, yes, shouldn't screw up partitions. Most of the problems I (and others) encounter are limitations, usability issues (in the context of new users) and bugs, IMO.

[tiggity]

Re: If only Linux was as simple...

@AC "Linux shouldn't screw up partitions"

Have you used windows in a dual OS machine? Windows is the OS that blithely assumes it is the only OS your machine will boot - if anything can be said to play nasty with partitions / boot sector it is Windows (hint - do not use most Windows repair tools on a dual boot system unless you have the ability to run basic boot repair software to fix what Windows breaks & get back to a working dual boot setup).

[collinsl]

Re: If only Linux was as simple...

Personally these days with the easy availability of VM managers like VirtualBox or VMWare Workstation Pro, plus most PCs having sufficient resources, I'd personally recommend most people virtualise rather than dual booting. Much easier and more convenient to run one OS inside the other.

[Cubbie Roo]

Re: If only Linux was as simple...

"If the installs are easy to botch then it is the ecosystem"

And yet the vast majority of data centers, every super computer worth a damn & virtually every smartphone on the planet runs on some form of Linux. How could the noob install issues possibly be down to human error.

[doublelayer]

Re: If only Linux was as simple...

Because you've got, respectively, a bunch of admins familiar with Linux running hardware designed by its manufacturer to run Linux, people who custom-built the entire machine and have plenty of knowledge on how to make Linux work with it, and a custom kernel built specifically for the hardware by the manufacturer. The last one is a perfect way to demonstrate this; try replacing your phone's kernel and OS with something else. It's hard for many people and those who can do it generally can do it on a small number of phones and otherwise have problems, which is why most phones run only the firmware their manufacturer shipped with them.

There is also user error, but far less often than you're claiming. But since you've admitted that you don't care, then at least you're consistent.

[Cliffwilliams44]

Re: If only Linux was as simple...

Bollox!

Do you really think the average Joe user can figure out what to do when an update borks a dependency for an app? It doesn't happen you say? Bullshit! It does even with the major players in Linux!

The biggest problem with Linux is there are too many cook! To many cook who think they know better than the people trying to use their software. 2 of the biggest examples are Libreoffice and Gnome! I'm sorry if I offend all the fanboys but Libre is shit! The UI looks like it hobbled out of a nursing home, it's hard to find what you want (especially someone coming from MS Office), Calc doesn't support a lot of functionality that Excel does because the devs think it's not important (See they think they know better). Gnome is an absolute shitshow! I won't go into all the reasons it is a shitshow except to say it is THE most unusable UI i've ever had the misfortune to use. Extensions you say? Normal users are not going to do that! Then, that extension you like goes "unsupported" dev dropped off the face of the planet!

Then there is this other problem, how many pieces of the underlying foundation end up going unmaintained because someone retired? How many required dependencies are supported by one person? Normal users are not going to deal with that least of all understand it!

Until someone produces a Linux Desktop OS (server too maybe) and takes full responsibility for everything from bottom to top, makes it usable and functionable, with usable productivity software OnlyOffice?), like Apple did with Next/BSD, Linux WILL NEVER be anything more than a niche OS on the desktop for techies!

Yes I run Linux as my daily work laptop. Fedora for a decade until they borked my laptop, now on Ubuntu Cinnamon.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: If only Linux was as simple...

I love the non ribbon Libre office menus - been around long enough to have used "classic" non ribbon menu systems & so am more efficient with them.

You can "ribbonize" Libre office if you see fit.

As for functionality, on many pieces of software, most users use a limited range of functionality, a far smaller amount use some of the less "mainstream" functionality

It's not quite the classic, much touted 80:20 concept, as quite a lot of more esoteric functionality will only be used by low single digit % of users - can be interesting when you put in metrics to record how your software is used & find that functionality that a certain customer claimed was an absolute deal breaker & everyone in the industry needed it, is surprise, surprise (no - not really a surprise! *) was used by that customer and nobody else.

* Too much software ends up bloated with lots of needless functionality because some customer "demands" it and, due to fear of losing / irritating that customer then the functionality they want gets added. Rinse & repeat across multiple customers & areas of functionality & that's why so much software is an over complicated mess: Refusal to say "No" ** when it really is the sensible reply. That's why i like software use metrics in commercial software - it shows the areas that do get heavily used & thus where it is worth devoting time and effort to boosting performance / usability. Get the "core" as good as possible, then you can think about adding bells & whistles.

** Lost count of number of times devs have said something along the lines of "that's a totally stupid idea for [lots of reasons]" or "a good idea for the future but we need to implement X, Y & Z from the roadmap first or it will be a real problem as will be a totally sub optimal implementation" but product / sales teams have forced through that idea getting added to the software

[Rich 2]

Re: If only Linux was as simple...

I use Linux every day, and whilst I much prefer BSD, I think Linux is ok

I do, however, 100% get where you’re coming from. I still have issues with Linux on my laptop, and I’ve been running it for years on it. And I find those issues annoying

But for someone who is not technically savvy and/or just doesn’t have the time or patience to sort them, it would be a total non-starter. There are Linux distributions that try to be a bit more “works out of the box” but I have never tried them so don’t know what they provide

Contrast this with a Mac. A Mac “just works”. I personally don’t like Macs - I don’t like the UI - but I do understand why they are gaining in popularity

Obviously Windows is just a shit show and always has been

[tiggity]

Re: If only Linux was as simple...

@Rich 2

"Contrast this with a Mac. A Mac “just works”. "

Partner is deep in Apple ecosystem (unlike me) - with iPhone, iPad(s) Macs (an all in one & a mini).

I can say that a Mac does not always just work as (despite me using Win for work & Linux (or Win/Linux dual boot) on personal kit) I often have to deal with odd issues*

* Albeit some of this to do with manufacturers not producing new Apple drivers for old kit - partner keeps old hardware going until it gives up the ghost. Especially when it includes things such as A3 printer which would be costly to replace with one of comparable quality

[CrazyOldCatMan]

Re: If only Linux was as simple...

Albeit some of this to do with manufacturers not producing new Apple drivers for old kit

Got an old Evo MK-261 midi keyboard that I dug out from the back of the cupboard during my garden leave to have a pootle on. Last time I used it was probably at least 10 years ago.

Hooked it up to my M3 MBP. Didn't recognise it. Tried to find device descriptors - nada. Tried to munge it, nope.

Ho hum, maybe modern MacOS doesn't like it - lets try Windows. Windows 11? Don't make me laugh. Windows 10? Nope. WIndows 7 (yes, I have a Windows 7 VM lying around and I could configure the USB passthrough). It detected it but wouldn't do anything with it because I don't have anything capable of using it on Windows and I'm not about to buy anything now.

Linux? Would detect the USB interface but not the keyboard.

So, back in the cupboard it goes to either take to the tip or offload to some mug^W customer on fleabay.

(Then remembered we'd still got the Roland electric piano that we'd inherited from the MiL when she popped her clogs 15 years ago. Plugged the USB interface in, turned it on, MacOS detected it immediately. Garageband a go-go! The value of having a *proper* well-supported keyboard..)

[myhandler]

Re: If only Linux was as simple...

Yep tried LInux three or four times.

I can do CLI and for work it's ok, but for the OS? GTFOOH.

I was a Mac fanboy till around 2000 - but then the software I needed was Windows only and I'd never gelled with OSX so I was happy to move.

I had a project a few years ago where Docker was not playing nicely on Windows so I got a MiniMac for the project.

Damn I hated it. There were things I had set up in WIndwos that I couldn't do on Mac. I asked two mac experts I knew they both said "um no I don't think you can do that".

You'd think after using that Mac for four months I'd at least get to be neutral about it but no.

Trouble is I've avoided W11 so far - so who knows that the future holds. I've seen more garbage popping up on W10 recently.

Looks like I will have to bite the Linux bullet and add WINE so I can run my vintage paid for Photoshop and Illustrator - I don't need no effing Adobe sub either, my versions are from 2007 and have everything I need.

[werdsmith]

Re: If only Linux was as simple...

Good to see reality coming out against The Register comments linux hive.

[Adair]

Re: If only Linux was as simple...

Anecdotal evidence/experience is exactly that, and we've all got it.

The fact that I had a crap/great experience trying to install $OS doesn't automatically extrapolate to being everyone else's experience.

Linux clearly works well for a great many people, regardless of the fact that a 'great many' may be a relatively small proportion of 'everybody', or the fact that some people have a crap experience.

The fact remains that most people have no idea how to install an OS, and have almost no clue how to maintain one. So, Linux/FLOSS computing really just needs to focus on doing what it does best, and mostly ignore siren/complaining voices demanding it be something else.

[DJ_]

"You're holding it wrong"

It is intriguing and fully expected that my original comment would bring the "Tim Cook" out amongst many here. Except swap "installing" for "holding"...

The distributions I referred to have simple installers just like MacOS and Windows. So, and while I am fully aware of "how to install an OS" (just for the record) given the sum total of my input into each installation was giving the account a name and time zone not sure how I've managed to be incapable of this? Perhaps calling it "spare" and saying it lived in London upset it? It certainly had that effect on Prince Harry I guess...

But each time I'm then faced with things that don't work and battling through forums. Being told "well you need to copy and paste these ten things into the terminal" isn't a seamless experience and, when it doesn't work anyway and you move on to "distribution + 1" and get yet something else it becomes disheartening. Never mind people inferring you're incapable as you don't know the secret command line stuff to do to make the volume and mute buttons work is truly a turn off from the OS. That was the point I was making - there wasn't a complaint? Someone who has an old laptop and thinks "I'll give one of these distributions a go" instead of binning it or - worse - having to buy something new with Win 11 is going to give up pretty quick when it doesn't simply install. Another potential convert lost.

I also don't understand references to "most of the world runs off Linux". Yep - my employer is almost solely built upon it and it's rock steady and highly valued. But I suspect those 99.999999% uptime servers aren't being used by someone who just wants to watch a YouTube video on how to fix their obscure Saab WITH the audio working. Or have a video call with their mum with a camera that needs to have stuff installed for it every. single. time.

Per my original post, I got Ubuntu working and it's great. Perfectly happy. In fact I've also put it on an old 64-bit ex-employer Dell and it's working there also. But everything else just needed too much work and much as I love puzzles and solving them, I'm less keen when it's just an OS. If the process was easier, more seamless and with less issues it'd make the world of difference?

[Cubbie Roo]

Re: If only Linux was as simple...

"Good to see reality coming out against The Register comments linux hive."

'Reality' being trapped in a proprietary OS agentic hellscape & not having the chops to escape? Nah I'll give that a miss (more down votes please!)

[Peter Gathercole]

Re: If only Linux was as simple... @DJ_

I'm not sure why you have problems. Let me describe my experience of Thinkpads over 28 years, and what I'm currently using.

I've used Linux on many different Thinkpads since a 365X (and a pre-Thinkpad IBM L40SX before that!). Never had a T410, but my current daily driver (this system I'm working on) is a T420, and my previous one was a T400, and I had a work provided T430. My wife's laptop is a 64 bit T60 (and is due to be replaced), and I also have a T470S knocking around as well (was scheduled to be the replacement for the T60, but my wife doesn't like it!). I currently also have a Gen 2 T14 running Fedora as my current work provided laptop.

Used them mainly with Ubuntu (mainline, but with pretty much every UI available installed), but also have had original Red Hat, RHEL, Fedora, Devuan and Mint running at various times.

Generally found no problems with any device on any of the recent systems and distros. I have found that T series Thinkpads are a trouble free experience with Linux. I did have some problems with Gnome (strange screen update glitches and font problems in Gnome terminal) in version 20.04 of Ubuntu on the T400, but I was never happy with Gnome after version 2, so I ended up with Lxde as the GUI which fixed it on my laptop (which is strange, as the version of X.org was the same, so why does Gnome terminal work under Lxde but not Gnome Shell!) Sound wise, the last time I had sound problems was on a T30 many years ago when Pulseaudio was new. Network devices including wireless, mobile WAN, card readers, graphic devices all just work, as does suspend/resume. Even picks up the special media keys. Put the Thinkpad sensors package on and even the temperature and speed sensors work.

When it comes to reliability, I almost never have crashes or hangs. The T60 occasionally runs out of memory (it can only use 3GB), but it's a real exceptional situation for one of my systems to stop working. Maybe a couple of times a year, and sometimes it's my fault!

So I can't explain why you have problems. Maybe you have a bad aura!

[Peter Gathercole]

Re: If only Linux was as simple... @DJ_

Shouldn't comment when tired. I meant Xfce.

[kjfnkdjfsk]

Re: If only Linux was as simple... @DJ_

I bought a T16 Gen 2 last year with Ubuntu pre-installed instead of Windows. It worked well on the whole, with one major exception, that after hibernation, the keyboard stopped working and only rebooting would fix it. That plus the unavailability of some software for work led me to switch back to Windows after several months and dual boot Windows 11, only to encounter more issues (e.g. File Explorer sometimes freezing when I try to rename a file). But still I can't agree that Linux on Thinkpad is trouble-free.

[DJ_]

Re: If only Linux was as simple... @DJ_

> So I can't explain why you have problems. Maybe you have a bad aura!

My wife has said similar...

I do note you're mainly using Ubuntu which my ThinkPad seemed very happy with.

I recall now with MX Linux... it would turn the screen off after ten minutes and would do so whatever setting you had for screensaver and would not come back up easily. There was a key combination that would bring a terminal up and you could then switch back to the desktop - notwithstanding that was incredibly annoying - that simply doesn't work for aforementioned wife who has zero patience for such things.

I tried all sorts including stripping various things out / installing other screen savers / changing BIOS settings. I put a fair bit of effort in as I otherwise really liked MX but I couldn't solve it. And given the plethora of various forum threads along "MX won't wake up after sleep" lines never resolved I figured I never would.

I can honestly say from a user perspective Ubuntu was my least favourite. I wanted MX but above blocked that and Mint was where I had all the audio issues.

I frankly WANT there to be a really solid alternative to Windows. I will stand by my belief 7 was one of the most polished OSes ever. I lived with 8.1 as long as I could (7 with ignorable 8/Metro bits that was supported longer). But 11... not for me. Intrusive, unpleasant, and can happily make a new 32GB i7 laptop run like total sh*t after a month.

As I have to support wife, 2 kids and an ancient mother in potentially 3 locations current strategy is everyone will be getting these cheap Macbook Neos going forwards! But I'll continue to like playing with Linux...

[Cliffwilliams44]

Re: If only Linux was as simple... @DJ_

I've never had a problem so obviously YOUR doing something wrong!

THAT, right there, is the entire problem with the Linux ecosystem!

[Hawkeye Pierce]

Re: If only Linux was as simple... @DJ_

What, grammar errors in the response? :-)

[mihares]

Re: If only Linux was as simple...

I looked up quickly the ThinkPad T410 and it comes from an era where a) Nvidia cards were a common "plus" option and b) they just started that idiotic multiplexing with the inescapable Intel Iris GPU on your CPU die. Your experience tells me that you are probably plagued with one of those separate Nvidia cards.

I feel your pain. If you don't need the Nvidia card and can disable it for good in the BIOS or UEFI: do that. Getting the system to work is even today unnecessarily complicated --by Nvidia, not by any feature of Linux other than being GPL'd. Huge respect for the folks who develop Nouveau and their relentless war with green windmills, but _for that era_ it is just not viable.

Modern Nvidia GPUs play a lot nicer with Linux --out of need: if they can't get them working, they'd just do AI on AMD cards and Nvidia wants that money. Still, if you do other than compute, your life is going to be much better _without_ Nvidia.

~~~

That, and the usage paradigm that is fundamentally different: on GNU+Linux, you don't come forwards without talking to a shell. Just as on Windows you don't come forwards without pumping the mouse. The change isn't comfortable in either directions --personally, I prefer talking to a shell --> I am 100% *nix based outside of work, where I have to contend with the mouse pumping thing. And loading times which remind me of IDE disks of the '90s. And random crashes. And the lot (but the PowerShell does get a lot of love, fact).

[DJ_]

Re: If only Linux was as simple...

Thanks for this. It's an old corp laptop so I suspect is inflicted with the Intel GPU but I'll certainly take a look as it'll be interesting to see if this makes a difference. I've replied to Peter above describing the issue with MX refusing to wake after sleep (which couldn't be stopped) - something many others report on older ThinkPads - and did suspect it had to be GPU/video related.

[Bran Muffin]

DJ_, This is The Register

Complaining about Linux is a sure way to get people upset with you.

[DJ_]

Re: DJ_, This is The Register

Thank you - I was asking for trouble with "be gentle" in the first place!

Definitely not complaining. It was truly a voyage of discovery and interesting trying the various versions out. I'm also under no illusions I was trying to put on an old and quirky laptop with a mishmash of parts - though to be fair had a similar experience on an old Acer of my mother's. I wanted only to highlight trying to get a "Linux" working became hard work pretty quick and on a spare machine I was in no hurry to use. That outcome will put otherwise happy converts off and that is a shame.

[Adair]

Re: DJ_, This is The Register

The thing is, exactly the same could be said about installing any random OS on any random device, i.e. your, or my experience, in that respect simply highlights the reality that behind the 'just works' experience offered by (or attempting to be offered by) a host of OEMs and retailers lies a whole other reality which is generally outside the capacity of a very large proportion of the population to deal comfortably with, if at all.

[Anonymous Coward]

Puzzled.......

.......that there are two Linux boosters (Liam Proven and Igor Ljubuncic -- aka Dedoimedo) who BOTH use a Mac as their daily driver!

Personally, I have ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEMS with four Fedora/XFCE machines here at Linux Mansions!

[Steve Davies 3]

Re: Puzzled.......

Don't be puzzled.

I use a MacBook Pro (M4 14in) as my daily driver. That's what I've done for personal use since 2007/08. I use linux almost everywhere else. The exception is a DEC PDP 11/84 which runs RSX-11-M-Plus and drives my NC Lathe/Mill.

I have a Linux Laptop running Rocky Linux 9.7 + Cinnamon. I use it for developing software using Lazarus. The MacOS Lazarus for ARM CPU's is still a bit iffy but it is getting there.

you can mix and match OS's very well. To me, it is all down to TWO things. 1) Ease of Use and 2) Use Case. use the OS that is right for the job that you want to do.

[Rob-S]

Windows 11 persuaded me switch to the Mac and an M5 Air.

My requirements are simple - I need an OS that's boots fast and immediately gets out of the way so I can do what I need to.

[brep51r]

if drivers are critical to you

i’m the same, plus i work in audio and i got really tired of the ad hoc and buggy way drivers work on windows. macs are unbelievably stable for this and while i’ll definitely going to install linux on older win hardware i don’t see it being feasible for a laptop for my use case.

[Bebu sa Ware]

Microsoft could produce a Windows Neo variant …

"Microsoft could produce a Windows Neo variant, one that did all the things users want and none of the ones they don't,"

Talk about believing six impossible things before breakfast I think even the White Queen would gag on that one - certainly would put anyone off their kedgeree.

Not that Microsoft ever excelled in anything but if the potential was there previously, it is long gone with any residue departing driven before the tsunami of AI insanity engulfing it and many other corporations. Microsoft is now riddled through with the dual curse of defective manglement and the teredo of AI.

[Rich 2]

Re: Microsoft could produce a Windows Neo variant …

Can you imagine a MS “Neo”?

It would REQUIRE an MS account to start it

It would have to do an update before you could use it for the first time and it would have to reboot 3 times in the process

It would pop up a dozen annoying boxes trying to sell you stuff you don’t need or want

It would run at half the speed of a PC from 20 years ago

It would require a reboot every day to stop it actually crashing

It would still crash

It would be riddled with viruses before the end of the first 24 hours of use

Any vaguely useful functionality would have been removed or relegated to some obscure register setting, or hidden under a dozen menu layers

As for the BAD points….

[Steve Davies 3]

Re: As for the BAD points….

There are far to many to mention. It is sad how far MS has fallen when it comes to consumer OS's. I know two hard core Windows Developers who run Windows Server on their Laptops just because it works reliably. MS can do it so why don't they do the same for the consumer? Ok, answers on a pinhead.

[hoola]

Re: Microsoft could produce a Windows Neo variant …

I am not an Apple user but I thought an AppleID was needed for everything? This fixation on the need for an account winds me up but it is NOT a Microsoft issue. People will quite happily use a phone and not complain about the need for a vendor account. They will also be signed up to many other services or websites without a complaint.

Update- - iOS has them as well

Pop-Ups - it is a pain in the arse and unlikely to get any better. Expect other OS to follow

Reboot - this is rubbish I have laptops & desktop OS VMs that will quite happily hibernate without issues. If it is crashing all the time the likelihood is there is a third-party software involved

Crash - they do not keep crashing, see point above

Virus - this is a user issue and not the OS, if you use a device such that it is "riddled with viruses in 24 hours" then you have a serious issue with the websites, software you use and your general IT hygiene.

Functionality - other than some of the well documented Windows 11 changes (particularly on Explored), yes it does happen but for 99.999999% of users is not an issue.

[doublelayer]

Re: Microsoft could produce a Windows Neo variant …

An Apple ID is not needed for everything, but it depends what you consider a normal task. You can set up a Mac without one, install plenty of software without using the store, etc. If you want to install something that's in the store, then you'll need to log in, even if it's a basic piece of free software from Apple. So whether this is a problem depends on what you want to install and whether you consider it acceptable that a login is required for that part. Windows is different, because depending on the version, you are forced to log in unless you take opaque steps to bypass it in order to do anything at all. It should be noted that this is not all variants of Windows 11 with Professional and up allowing local accounts (Professional with a little circumvention but no CLI or installation patching, Enterprise/Education just by pressing a button).

[DS999]

Microsoft couldn't

Because they don't have the volume. Apple can make this work because they are using their own SoCs which they make in massive volume. Microsoft would be buying x86 chips from Intel/AMD and paying their profit margin, which kills their chances of making something competitive from the get go. They don't have Apple's buying power for many of the components where Apple leverages their massive iPhone volumes to get preferential pricing, or they outright make custom stuff themselves like wifi/BT chips, PMICs and so forth.

Microsoft could offer something with inferior performance at the same price, or comparable performance at a higher price, and knowing them the build quality would be much lower in either case because what Steve Jobs said about Microsoft decades ago is still true - they have no taste.

[DrewPH]

Nope

I read as far as

"Every year of Apple Silicon, the experience of using a Mac has gotten better."

This is patently untrue, so I see no point in reading further.

[werdsmith]

Re: Nope

I have walked the walk and I find it to be absolutely true.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Nope

When I got to the statement "Every year of Apple Silicon, the experience of using a Mac has gotten better" I kept reading but started wondering whether this was some sort of marketing material.

Truthfully, I'd like to think that 8GB RAM and a mobile-phone SOC was enough to browse the web, send email and create documents. These activities used to fit easily in 20MB RAM on an i486.

At the same time it's possible that lack of a local AI assistant will soon feel like retro computing to many.

Fortunately, I like retro computing. On the other hand, I've also become fond of interactive JIT compiled programming languages and data visualization environments and those also require more than 8GB RAM.

[tip pc]

Re: Nope

Fortunately, I like retro computing. On the other hand, I've also become fond of interactive JIT compiled programming languages and data visualization environments and those also require more than 8GB RAM.

that's like buying a fiat 500 & expecting a Ferrari F80 experience, yes they both have 4 wheels/steering wheel/windows/engine but they obviously have different capabilities. the fiat 500 won't be competitive in a road race with cars of the caliber of a Ferrari F80

[tiggity]

Re: Nope

I used to have a Fiat 500 - in it's defence it was a lot easier to park than a Ferrari F80* (& you could see out of the rear window - rear visibility would be a challenge in the F80 if the digital rear-view camera** failed). It has a lot more storage space too!

It can be "fun" driving a low powered car on winding and hilly roads as you cannot drive "lazily" in the way you can with a powerful car (the relatively small tyre area in contact with the road on a 500 makes icy roads "interesting" too)

* Though if you can afford a F80 you can afford to employ someone to deal with the tedious task of parking it.

** Its essential as rear visibility is abysmal

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Nope

I'd say the hardware has got better and better. Seriously, £600 for a base Mac Mini M4 is a steal given its speed and overall capabilities. That being said, I don't think macOS has improved year on year. It was good in 2020 and it's good now.

[kmorwath]

Don't get a CoPilot PC....

And Windows 11 won't nag you with unwanted AI features.

That said, Nadella has worked hard to kill Windows - and if he couldn't it's just because it runs more software than macOS and Linux, and runs on far more hardware than macOS.

Don't know if the recent assertions from MS they "handled it wrong" are sincere - they look to have a cultural problem in Redmond, they had started holden in contempt users as much as some FOSS projects.

Still a walled garden puts you anyway in the "gracious hands" of your overlord.... Apple makes a lot of money from hardware, but doesn't disdain to make more from software whenever it could.

There is no technical solution - users' right must be asserted by law and enforced. But that's why US companies are fighting so hard EU rules in that direction.

[Groo The Wanderer - A Canuck]

Debian on stock AMD AM4 based hardware here with a NVidia RTX4070Ti.

My only pain in setting up this box was trying to jump to the latest release of Debian sooner than NVidia had the driver deployment stack for the CUDA and driver repos for the new version of Debian. I briefly reinstalled windows 11, got attacked within two weeks to wipe out ALL my hard drives in the attack, and reinstalled Debian, this time with NVidia's instructions and repos available.

NVidia needs to make it a little bit easier for novices to install their repos, or to get their repo drivers into the Debian release chain faster so that gaming isn't an issue on stock NVidia-equipped hardware for Steam/Proton, because most of the user base doesn't want nor need CUDA, just the updated graphics drivers shipped through those repos. The ones that Debian had in their stock release didn't even support DLSS.

It also needs to be a little easier to force your box to use the X-11 stack and disable Wayland so that your games run properly using that NVidia stack. Half my games wouldn't even launch under Wayland, and half that did launch ran at about 20 FPS. Major thumbs down on the stupidest display driver stack design I have ever had the misfortune to encounter since I first played with a TRS-80 Model I, Level I in high school.

My box is silent. No AI promting, no weird configuration changes happening 'cause I installed a software patch or update, and more software support than even Windows can offer if you're talking to a web coder or full-stack developer! If you deal with AI on such a box, it is because you choose to.

And that's the nut of it: Debian and most of the Linux distros let you decide how your box behaves and what it does, not some greedy corporate masters.

[Groo The Wanderer - A Canuck]

When I say "simple" I mean as simple as Windows - downloading a distro-specific .rpm or .deb that automatically installs the NVidia security signatures, repo hooks, apt update invocation, apt install invocation with -y specified, etc. Click and go, same as Windows, just for a different icon that matches what they see on their login or background for a fresh install. Remember: most people who think they're "good at computers" are actually phishing-prone dweebs who think being able to write a spreadsheet macro makes them an "expert at computers."

[chivo243]

Informing Mom!

I just broke the news to mom today, that when her win10 lappy dies, it's this new MacBook. It's cheaper than the PC laptop I bought her in 2016. She's worried about learning macOS, like she knows anything about windows, except which icon is associated with Chrome, and Quicken, which has a mac version now. I know she'll find some things difficult at first, but so was win10 when I started supporting it. Onward...

[cookiecutter]

here come the techies...

who forget that the neo ISN'T aimed at them. and of course the predictable comments about linux..

the consumer.. the ones that ACTUALLY matter won't pick up linux. the techies who care about linux can't keep a company afloat, especially as the moment it starts charging everyone starts screaming like little children about selling out.

The Neo is perfect for someone who wants a laptop to do browsing, some google workspace or office stuff. £598 isn't too much to buyb one for your kids to do school work and the colour choice is awesome.

I have a 2020 M1 Macbook Ait & if it wasnt for vmware fusion & my insane desire to run ollama, it would do me got another few years. That & yr fact i've run outb of sticker space.

Nadella has killed microsoft. windows 11 is a genuine disgrace as an OS & ever the xbox has ended up being put away as I can't bloody login to the damned thing. What WILL be interesting will be the Neo resale prices as people start too upgrade for the new shiny shiny as - before the tories fucked the IT industry in this country & sent all the jobs offshite, I'd trade in my macbooks & iphones yearly with the excellent return on those.

windows 11 should not exist, 10 was perfectly good but the business idiots MUST have their continual growth so 100s of millions of perfectly good machine end up binned in s forced upgrade.

Yes MacOS isn't prefect, namely getting rid of launchpad and yes apple are REALLY annoying with some things like their 30% apple tax BUT I can turn on the laptop, do what i want, no annoying shite, no copilot popping up every 10 seconds & no sudden reboot where i've forgotten to set the "working hours" & windows update suddenly kicks in.

anything Nadella touches turns to shit

[kmorwath]

"windows 11 should not exist, 10 was perfectly good"

Actually, even 10 should have never existed. 8 outside tablets too. Windows 11 is not so different from 10. same dumbed down UI, same lame control panel. The other issues - lack of quality control, unwanted AI features, are not part of the OS design, are just the effects of bad decisions from Nadella downwards, and would have affect any OS version.

But this is a general "enshittification" movement which does not impact Windows only - as long as money are no longer made by selling software, but by hoarding data, and use them to chain users into some services subscriptions, there is were money are spent.

[Matthew 25]

Options for a different venue

Windows 11 has caused the end of a long relationship by being unusable. I moved to Linux. However there are just too many gaps in it's coverage of my working environment so I moved again to Mac. No, it doesn't just work. No, it doesn't do everything I want it to. If this was just development Linux would be my home but I need more than development, and there are some proprietary software packages I can't find FOSS alternatives that work how I want. Mac OS is the smallest compromise for me. (And I never expected that)

[werdsmith]

Re: Options for a different venue

What’s your definition of “unusable” bearing in mind that millions and millions of people use it daily for personal and business?

[Peter Gathercole]

Re: Options for a different venue

I'm all in the Linux camp, but it is clear that there are usage cases around specific software and hardware where Linux just can't provide a solution at the moment, and it probably won't until the specific manufacturers of such systems embrace Linux.

Many of us here are in system admin, integrator or developer professions or maybe just casual computer users. For us, Linux provides everything we need. But if you are in the creative professions, the lack of professional grade media software, be it Photoshop, Pro Tools or any other example of specialist software, and the specific needs of computer controlled peripherals for manufacturing, maintenance or diagnostics rules Linux out as an alternative. Until this situation ends, some people are stuck with Windows or macOS, and we need to recognise this.

[PRR]

Better?

> Every year of Apple Silicon, the experience of using a Mac has gotten better.

Well, not much. I didn't Mac for over a decade, and when I came back to Mac it hadn't changed much. Windows, OTOH, from W98 through the set-up slog of W11, got suckier every edition and most updates.

[kmorwath]

Re: Better?

No Windows had very good releases with Windows 2000 and Windows 7.

Just MS manglement refused to acknowledge why users liked those versions so much, and decided changes which could only appeal users like themselves.

Trying to bend your flagship product to capture a different market, is usually a recipe for disaster. But the "monodimensional" CEO can't think differently.

[Slant Four]

regarding linux

Been using Linux since 1997 and while Linux now owns the backend it will never become a force in the desktop simply because:

- Windows apps own the corporate space

- Windows and Mac own the consumer space as you can't go into a big box retailer and buy a Linux PC the way you can with windows or mac

This is despite W11 being a crock of shit... the inertia to move off it is just too ingrained in the corporate and consumer space.

And lets say you can get a Linux PC in a big box retailer... which desktop... the options are far flung and would bamboozle 99% of consumers so someone need to champion say two different desktops to keep the options sane.

Who is that someone?.... Intel... Dell... Best Buy (or the local equiv).. cause it has to be someone with skin in the game.

Bluck

[kmorwath]

Re: regarding linux

Windows apps own the corporate space

Windows and macOS apps own the desktop space.

Until Linux removes the many obstacles it creates itself in developing GUI desktop applications (more or less what Android did) it can only rely on Microsoft or Apple firing in their own feet. The CLI is the only common interface across Linux distros.

Not every application can become a web one. Without a common GUI API and with subpar GUI libraries - plus lack of backward compatibily and working hard against commercial application, the issue is not you can't enter a shop and "buy a Linux PC".

BTW, with which distro? RedHat/Fedora/Rocky LInux/Alma Linux/Debian/Devuan/Ubuntu/Xubuntu/Mint/Suse/Arch/<put your favourite distro here> - "choice" here means nobody will make a "Linux PC", because even if a seller would choose one, it will get all the complains of those who think it chose the wrong one.

Apple will sell you whatever CPU and OS it believes you need to use, while Microsoft sells you one or two verions of Windows. And when you need to sell, that matters.

[tip pc]

like the hardware, hate the direction of OS X

Every year of Apple Silicon, the experience of using a Mac has gotten better. Every year of Windows 11, the experience of using a PC has gotten worse.

OS X looks to be following the privacy eroding path of windows & linux/unix looks to be dragged along that way too.

Mac hardware is very good quality, I just want to run my OS without authoritarian oversight. I have nothing to hide, I just want some privacy & security for my work & documents.

unless OS 27 is exceptionally good and rewinds age checking etc, I will be sticking with 26.3 for the foreseeable.

[spmm]

Love your work…

Another long time lurker here first comment. A Mac user since I bailed at home from Win 11. Apart from work things the only app I cared about was Foldit which runs perfectly on a Mac. Had been running it under Windows on a server blade in the spare room, wearing ear muffs. Bought a new cylinder mac and plugged in the Dell monitor and it was lovely, still is.

My work stuff was fine via CISCO, more importantly I didn’t have to pay for software essentials I hated. All free on Apple I could edit my photos and EDraw was a working substitute for VISIO.

MS Active Directory email or whatever it is called now, CAD and Excel are imho the only reasons business stays with MS.

The other totally unexpected and truly amazing thing is the handover across Apple devices - cut and paste from a phone to the desktop, still makes me smile.

No desire to tinker with Linux and be thrown into the wild, wild west of dubious downloads, being in a walled garden is fine thanks very much.

[Anonymous Coward]

LTSC could / should be the basis of an M$ answer to Neo?

After carefully following Liam Proven's linked suggestions here:

https://www.theregister.com/2025/04/22/windows_10_ltsc/

I've converted an ancient Asus Win10 laptop, running some even older Windows-only utilities, to Win10 LTSC IOT and the whole experience is quite a revelation! No infuriating nagging to buy a 365 sub! Minimal unwanted crud which keeps re-appearing on the Start menu, despite regular removal! Runs noticeably faster, I guess because less unwanted background monitoring! No AI / CoPilot!!

It's the nearest thing to the Mac experience described here that I've seen on Windows, with very little inserting itself between you and what you're trying to do. If only someone with some sway in Redmond would wake up and realise that they already have something which could, finally, turn the seemingly unstoppable Windows enshittification tide then they might regain some credibility.

[PeterM42]

Excellent article!

BUT, it completely ignored Android and ChromeOS which Google are transforming into "Aluminum" which has the potential to have the capabilty of both Windows and iOS, without the annoyance of Windows' grossest faults and Apple's cost and limitations.

Linux is an irrelevance because there are far too many variants which maintain a high degree of difference with each other.

[osxtra]

Supply Chain

The House of Bill will never catch up to the House of Steve, because the latter was ultimately a hardware company whose owner understood that forcing the software that ran on it to be as smart, pretty, and flawless as possible was not only aesthetically pleasing, but would also ultimately increase sales; whereas the former just wanted to skip directly to Underwear Gnome stage three.

MacOS was at one time Unix under the hood thanks to NeXT which Steve incorporated after coming back from the wilderness. Not sure what the source code looks like today, probably compiled with LLVM, but it's totally under control of the same folks that design the hardware.

I am not a fan of the walled garden, but do like Mac OS, though honestly I don't use much of the apps that come with it. Document Foundation, Mozilla, iTerm, sometimes VS Code (another thing M$ is trying very hard to ruin, looking longingly at Zed in the hope it keeps maturing, liking what I see), sometimes VIM, compiling Python, Maria, Apache, etc. My OpenCore box happily does all that. What I'd really like is a way for Mac to run on generic Arm, because eventually the x86 hardware I currently have will be too old.

But until such time as I can both work on the box and upgrade storage/ram myself, will never buy another piece of Fruity hardware.

(The '09 MBP, long in the tooth, still runs! Though these days it's the FrameWork with Debian for laptop use...)

[kmorwath]

Re: Supply Chain

The difference is Apple was born as hardware company. while Microsoft was not. As soon as Compaq cloned the IBM PC - selling software for a brand only made no sense. Google followed the same path with Android.

And if you think, without the success of PC clones, there would be no Linux. We would have many walled gardens, each with its own hardware and OS.

[Anonymous Coward]

Steve Jobs’ philosophy at Apple was to make the technology disappear into the experience. That’s something Windows struggles with, largely because it has to support countless OEMs and their unpredictable drivers. Linux doesn’t even attempt that separation. For Linux, the technology is the experience.

I moved away from Intel‑based PCs purely because of the hardware. Apple Silicon’s performance, combined with no thermal issues and zero fan noise, is best in class. I still use Windows, but I run it on a MacBook in a virtual machine, and it runs better, and in some cases faster, than it does on many x86 laptops and even desktops.

[CrazyOldCatMan]

I want to..

.. get away from doing DHCP on Windows - because, without it, I can get rid of 2 physical servers and one VM.

But, it needs to have some management other than CLI. My main router can run DHCP (and now I've simplified my network I'm tempted to) but it's basic at best.

I'm happy to run it on a physical linux box (got a Lenovo mini that just sips power) but I haven't yet found an easily-manageable way of doing it without diving into the CLI (which I'm not averse to, just spent too many years going and want something more simple!)

Any ideas?

PS: It needs to do DNS too - small local zone file (edited in a GUI) and forward any other queries to the router