'Uncle Larry’s biggest fan' cut by email in early morning Oracle layoff spree

By his third failed attempt to log into Oracle’s VPN on Tuesday morning, a decades-long employee of the company started to get a bad feeling. When Slack stopped responding too, the feeling got worse. Then he checked his email and discovered that he was one of the estimated thousands of Oracle employees who had received a …

[Bitsminer]

Cutout

It's not cutting people replaced by AI, it's cutting people to pay for AI.

[Dan 55]

Re: Cutout

And when the bubble pops there'll be no AI, no staff (the people who make Oracle money), and a heap of debt.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: and a heap of debt.

Please lord make it so. Oracle is truly hated in my company because of their licensing morass. We got charged for software that we stopped using 10 years before. It took a 'Prove that we are using it' from our lawyers before they stopped. Oracle still come around demanding an audit. We are 100% Oracle free so we say, if there is no oracle product found, are you going to cover our costs of hosting your audit? They never answer that.

[EricM]

Re: Cutout

Cutting people, that did actual work for customers, fixed bugs, enhanced products - to pay for AI that will do neither ...

[Sorry that handle is already taken.]

Re: Cutout

It's going to get so much worse because Oracle has bet the farm on AI data centre construction. It's commitments are somewhere in the 12 figures, right when the bubble is on the verge of bursting...

[Sorry that handle is already taken.]

Re: Cutout

Whoops, apostrophe!

[David 132]

Re: Cutout

Was that correction a deliberate riff on "Whoops Apocalypse", or just a fortuitous coincidence?

[Nate Amsden]

kind of gross

to see some posts on linkedin from some ex-Oracle folks saying glowing things about their Oracle experience and how they are so positive and happy etc, as someone commented there is probably something in their severance that says they can't say bad things or something.

But still I'd certainly be pissed at this kind of situation. The two times I was laid off in my career I've always been treated with respect, and the layoff was justified as the company had been struggling for some time. 5 of the 9 companies I have worked for in my career going back to 1998 are dead (last real layoff was in 2002). Two more shrunk by probably 90%+, and another got acquired. I've never worked for a big company, and never wanted to for reasons like this Oracle situation.

But posting super huge profits and axing tons of folks because they are doubling or tripling down on a stupid plan to build out this "AI" stuff(every passing day the credit markets are deteriorating further) well that's about as disrespectful as you can be to the employees and also to your existing customer base.

[xyz123]

Re: kind of gross

Oracle has AI generating fake PR fluff pieces and 'reviews of employment'

Notice how every.single.employee was a happy smiley goon, with zero issues or problems.

The AI is pretending Oracle was a Utopia. Maybe they'll get wise and publish something nightmarish, like "one day it rained on my way to work" of course followed by "but luckily Larry Ellison was on the bus and gave me his umbrella and wellington boots. And walked to work like jesus protecting us from DEI"

[MachDiamond]

Re: kind of gross

"Notice how every.single.employee was a happy smiley goon, with zero issues or problems."

AI generated?

[GoneFission]

Re: kind of gross

Unfortunately the gears of late capitalism are driven by the endless chase after exponential profits. Values like respect, ethics, compassion and moral decency won't make the line go up in the short term quite as much as the investors and stakeholders would really like to see, so this is the reality we get instead.

[MachDiamond]

Re: kind of gross

"as someone commented there is probably something in their severance that says they can't say bad things or something."

I'd just say nothing at all if they weren't going to be paying me to be all smiles and happy about it. I suppose it might depend on the severance and whether I had already secured another job and was just about to give notice.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: kind of gross

It could be that they don't want to present a negative image to potential employers. "I'n a model employee who'd never say a bad word about an employer even if they dumped me by email."

[Michael Strorm]

Re: kind of gross

> "that's about as disrespectful as you can be to the employees"

Oracle has long been a company whose entire business model is being abusive towards its victims^w customers, so why would they be any different towards their employees?

This isn't even new, they're already known for stuffing their salespeople on commission.

[JacobZ]

Revenge is the best revenge

Many years ago I "separated" from Oracle. I got paid, including for vacation; got my vested options; got my CORBA.

And then about two weeks later, I got the HR letter asking me to sign that I would never say anything disparaging about Oracle. I sent the letter back with a little note saying "Why would I ever sign this?"

And then I got a job as a tech analyst [not Gartner] and said lots of disparaging things about Oracle.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Revenge is the best revenge

You could have asked them to agree that anything that woas true couldn't have been disparaging.

[Vader]

Re: kind of gross

I hope that Oracle goes pop.

[Ace2]

I’ve just started to receive pull requests generated by BGs. It’s absolutely astounding how good the tools have become.

Also, the PRs were trash, 100% wrong. I’m not worried at all about being replaced.

It is going to get worse before it gets better, though.

[Bebu sa Ware]

It is going to get worse before it gets better

If it ever does.

If "better" means the same "better" in place before everything got worse then extremely doubtful.

The "better" our lords and masters (conventionally our "betters") seem to have in mind for us makes even "worst" attractive.

I often wonder whether any of the drongos directing this nonsense ever consider the question "Where do see your enterprise in five years time?" Probably none as I suppose they will have buggered off with their loot well before that like thieves in the night. Whether 2031 is a world worth living in, is another matter but I suppose they expect to have relocated well before then to Elonpolis or Muskburg on the Red planet. As I said drongos.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: It is going to get worse before it gets better

You can’t build an economy around Walmart.com Curbside collection cart pushers.

Who will buy the iPhones, Dunkin’ coffees, Zepbound GLP-1, hBO/Paramount+ subscriptions, 20% tipping and all of the other discretionary spend sloshing around the economy.

Most of those Walmart workers are also paid so little they are able to claim Medicaid too… so a heavily bastardised version of Universal Healthcare too..

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: It is going to get worse before it gets better

Will Bob Cratchit get a Turkey from Ebenezer Ellison this Christmas?

I think not.

[CrazyOldCatMan]

Re: It is going to get worse before it gets better

Whether 2031 is a world worth living in

That's the year before I retire (as the nice pension letter from the Government that I got this morning informed me.. - yes, I'm well aware of when I turn 67 thankyouverymuch..)

[xyz123]

Friend works for Oracle.

Says out of the 35,000 remaining they plan to lay off ANOTHER 30,000 to leave 5k staff by the end of 2026.

They think the rest will be replaced fully by AI

So basically ZERO human support staff. Just reams and reams of salespeople and middle managers. And an evil version of chatgpt built to be like larry ellison.

[Dan 55]

If this really is true then I assume Larry thinks the AI bubble popping is going to take Oracle down, there's nothing he can do about it, and his lifeboat is his new media empire.

[Steve Davies 3]

Lifeboats can sink as well

given that Mr Oracle has hitched his media wagon to Trump, the downfall of Trump may not work out well for him (And Bezos etc)

Once Trump has gone who will replace him? J.D. Couch Potato is hardly POTUS material unless Peter Thiel can get his arm even farther up his you know where and make JD purely a puppet for the ultra right.

[trindflo]

Re: Lifeboats can sink as well

J.D. isn't a couch potato, he is the Sofa King! And Sofa King annoying.

[Anonymous Coward]

Where are Paramount SkyDance getting the $100bm all cash offer.

The 0.0001% are well isolated from any bubble popping - they have long passed or derived the debt risk down to the stupid. Esp. The ones funding the next Financial Crisis trigger of (unregulated) ‘Private Debt’. The ‘unregulated’ is the key term here.

[Vader]

Maybe but without daddy helping thats loaded with Debts from the UAE and co, which is funny as TACO is bombing that area. Maybe they should call in the debt.

[DS999]

I don't think they intend to replace all those people with AI

Larry is just betting the farm that AI will be so profitable that the existing businesses won't matter anymore so he'll be content to milk them until they die.

Kind of like how Musk is content to let Tesla's car business slowly die because he's under the delusion that his robots will be such a huge business that cars will no longer matter.

I hope they both find out otherwise and Oracle and Tesla both go bankrupt, and ideally take Larry and Elon with them (but I know no one worth hundreds of billions would have dumb enough advisers that they couldn't structure things to insure they'd be left with billions and shareholders, employees, and creditors are the ones getting screwed)

[Groo The Wanderer - A Canuck]

The inevitable need for some sort of Guaranteed Minimum Income in the civilized nations of the world is becoming increasingly necessary as the automation of jobs in IT, manufacturing, assembly, packaging, shipping, transportation, crop harvesting and management, and other fields formerly dominated by human labour undergo rapid transformation. Even the local farm operations of today look little like they did even a decade ago, with widespread adoption of GPS-based automatic tractor driving software and the like. Humans are still required to be present, but they're listening to music on headphones/earbuds or yapping on cell phones now that most farms are on the edge of the cell tower ranges.

Yes, the American will scream "Communism!" or "Socialism!", but the alternative is mass rioting and bloodshed as the world rebalances itself to serve the greater needs of the majority, likely at the expense of billionaires lives and families' safety.

[Mishak]

Yep

Seems to be heading for a place where Company A's AI provides services to Company B's AI that makes things / provides services for people who can't afford them as they don't have jobs - except for the "super rich" who own the businesses, of course.

Whilst I hate Communism, there has to be some balance that means "the normal person" has a reasonable standard of living (provide they are prepared to get off their a**, of course).

[Wulyum]

Re: Yep

Take a good long look at Universal Basic Income.

It works and has very low admin costs. Hey! You might even be able to administer it without a database or AI.

That really would be the icing on the cake.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Yep

It wouldn't work as a national scheme as prices would simply rise to absorb it.

[doublelayer]

Re: Yep

The admin costs may be small, even then only in theory, but the absolute costs are enormous and there are enough corner cases that you'd need extra programs, almost as many as we already have, to cover them. That's without considering any possible economic reactions to such a program. If you think the benefits are worth those costs, you can make that point. Either way, don't pretend the system is easy just because you like the idea.

[SarahC_]

Re: Yep

>Take a good long look at Universal Basic Income.

That's what people initially say. But think about it for a second......... "BASIC".... income....... We'll get money for food, rent, electricity, water, gas. A VERY modest disposable income. How modest? Depends on the tax rate.

We'll be living at home, and we'll have to get used to enjoying nature again, and all those free pastimes - because we won't be buying very nice food, cars, 80" TV's, hobby supplies, or holidays on our UBI.

We've got the entire business world lobbying apparatus against us - and they'll be minimising UBI HARD.

UBI stops the un-needed rioting, that's all. We wont have "Consumer lives" like we have now.

[EricM]

Re: Yep

That's the point. About 90% of our economy that do not serve really BASIC needs (Airlines, Cars, Entertainment, Fashion, ... ) would be gone pretty fast, taking the 1000's of companies in their supply chains with them.

That would result in 90% of potential tax income to pay for UBI be gone fast, making the payout even more basic, even if you tax the remaining "IA" companies at 100%.

[Like a badger]

There may be other options than a guaranteed income, but regardless the problem is that most governments aren't even thinking about this, other than wet dreams in which AI about reduce the cost of providing public services and get rid of pesky public sector employees. It'll come as a complete surprise to all Western governments if AI does replace human labour, and the first they'll notice will be high unemployment counts, high benefit claims, and massive falls in tax revenues.

Politicians have learned NOTHING about how the West undermined its own industrial base through a combination of hugely expensive domestic regulations and near enough open trade with countries who didn't have those regulations. And so, as we enter an era when nit is feasible that AI could bring in a further generational shift of mass unemployment, said politicos are doing what they always do, which is nothing other than feathering their own nests.

[David Hicklin]

> massive falls in tax revenues.

Simple, class AI as an employee and hit them with IR35.

[Anonymous Coward]

I can’t see the MAGA nutjobs attending this weeks CPAC in Texas remotely being interested is paying for commie UBI.

They are inviting failed politicians like Liz ‘lettuce’ Truss as keynote speakers .. who is spouting the usual Sharia Law in London bollocks.

[Doctor Syntax]

"The inevitable need for some sort of Guaranteed Minimum Income in the civilized nations of the world is becoming increasingly necessary"

How does it get financed?

[Paul Smith]

From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs?

[trindflo]

How does it get financed?

It gets financed by taxes. That is the polite way it happens. Or there are always the pitchforks and torches.

And as more of the means of production gets concentrated into the hands of fewer, their taxes will go up to compensate.

And if we keep going down this path, eventually the people will effectively or actually take over the few engines of production.

Greedy oligarchs are driving the entire system to communism.

[Michael Strorm]

Re: How does it get financed?

What many people don't realise- particularly the foaming-at-the-mouth types who dismiss anything in that direction is socialism, communism, whatever- is that the modern welfare state was effectively created in the late 19th century by German chancellor Otto von Bismarck as an attempt by the conservative German establishment to keep the populace on *their* side and to counter and undermine the threat posed by growing support for their socialist *opponents*.

My understanding is that many on the actual left opposed the welfare state for this reason- it was still basically a tool of and support structure designed to reinforce the capitalist societies that they wanted to abolish.

[Michael Strorm]

Re: How does it get financed?

Edit; should have read "many on the actual left initially opposed the welfare state for this reason".

[Anonymous Coward]

The US employment hellscape

How do people cope?

[simonlb]

Re: The US employment hellscape

How do they cope? By having a whopping 10 days a year vacation time, which is more than enough for anyone. I'm disgusted to have to take the 25 days my employer gives me here in the UK as I could be so much more productive with those extra 15 days. Bloody socialists and their employment legislation.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The US employment hellscape

25? When I was in France I had to cope with 40! Absolute hell, no wonder I was happy to retire.

(Actually, no wonder our international HQ was happy to downsize the French offices first)

[Dave@Home]

Re: The US employment hellscape

Just think of all that shareholder value you left on the table, I don't know how you can sleep at night!

[CrazyOldCatMan]

Re: The US employment hellscape

I'm disgusted to have to take the 25 days my employer gives me here in the UK

You'd be *really* fuming at the 35 that I'm forced to accept then..

[simonlb]

Re: The US employment hellscape

Oh, shall we also count the seven Bank Holidays as well?

[MachDiamond]

Re: The US employment hellscape

"You'd be *really* fuming at the 35 that I'm forced to accept then.."

Are you allowed to take them more than 2-3 at a time? Shamed if you try?

[Pascal Monett]

Re: The US employment hellscape

Whisky ?

[Androgynous Cupboard]

Re: The US employment hellscape

Whiskey?

[Aladdin Sane]

Re: The US employment hellscape

Could be risky.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: The US employment hellscape

Don't get frisky.

[CrazyOldCatMan]

Re: The US employment hellscape

Don't get frisky.

Have a cup of tea and a nice bisky..

[lglethal]

Re: The US employment hellscape

I've tried having discussions with Americans on this in the last few years, and I get the impression that Americans have not only been brainwashed into just thinking this is normal, but to actually enjoy the pain!

The conversations usually run along the lines of:

"Why do you guys put up with such crap working conditions?"

"Well we get paid well."

"But you dont really, I mean your purchasing power is not that much above ours. It's actually about on par I think"

"Yeah but you pay so much in taxes"

"Well yeah, but then I get free Healthcare, good roads, and if I lose my job, I get government support!"

"...."

"That's kinda normal for every western nation outside of the US."

"...."

"And we get 30 days holiday each year, and HAVE to use them. Or the company gets in trouble."

"But if you take time off, they'll sack you and someone else will get your job."

"Ummm, no. That would be massively illegal. Besides our firms want us to take holidays - a rested worker does better work than a stressed one."

"... Nahh our systems better. America is the best!"

"I think we can stop the conversation now..."

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The US employment hellscape

This is clearly why the American economy is complete shit, and Europe is doing so incredibly well...

[lglethal]

Re: The US employment hellscape

That depends how you want to define "the Economy".

America seems to have a lower unemployment rate - US Bureau of Labour claims just 4.4% compared to Germany's 6.4%. However, the "Civilian Labor Force Participation Rate" is only 62% in the USA. So that means less than 2/3 of americans in the labour force age range are working in the regular economy. I guess at least some of those are working in various black market employment. But frankly thats a ridiculously low number. It's also indicative of the way governments "massage" the figures to get the values they want. You can achieve low unemployment by simply redefining unemployed people as not looking for work. Therefore, the fact they cant find a job, must mean they are not trying, therefore they are unemployed by choice and therefore not included in the unemployment figures. That 4.4% is likely only those registered as unemployed...

I know in Australia back in the 90's a government was caught out massaging the figures, by going with anyone who was unemployed for more than 18 months, no longer counted for the official unemployment figures. It was quite a big scandal if I remember correctly...

You can also look at the CPI where American inflation is higher than Europe - 2,5% vs 2,1% for the last 12 months.

But the best indicator for me is the proportion of population below the international poverty line indicator. Europe varies between 0,1-0,3%, with Spain and Sweden being outliers at 0,6%. The USA stands at 1,2%. Double the worst of Europe. Think about that 1.2% of americans live below the poverty line. The US population is ~350 million. So ~4,2 million americans are living below the poverty line. In the supposed richest country in the world.

That's a pretty damning indictment of the US "Economy". The GDP might be high, but it's not helping "the People" of the USA, now is it?

(sources:

Bureau of Labor Statistics - https://www.bls.gov/cpi/

https://www.bls.gov/cps/latest-numbers.htm

European Statistics:

https://www.bundesbank.de/en/statistics/economic-activity-and-prices/harmonised-consumer-prices/harmonised-index-of-consumer-prices-932146

https://statistik.arbeitsagentur.de/DE/Navigation/Statistiken/Fachstatistiken/Arbeitsuche-Arbeitslosigkeit-Unterbeschaeftigung/Aktuelle-Eckwerte-Nav.html?DR_Gebietsstruktur%3Dd%26Gebiete_Region%3DDeutschland%26DR_Region%3Dd%26DR_Region_d%3Dd%26mapHadSelection%3Dfalse

Poverty Line Details:

https://platform.who.int/data/maternal-newborn-child-adolescent-ageing/indicator-explorer-new/MCA/proportion-of-population-below-the-international-poverty-line-(sdg-1.1.1))

[MachDiamond]

Re: The US employment hellscape

"You can achieve low unemployment by simply redefining unemployed people as not looking for work. Therefore, the fact they cant find a job, must mean they are not trying, therefore they are unemployed by choice and therefore not included in the unemployment figures."

It can also mean that one parent is staying home to raise the kids as the work they could get doesn't pay enough to cover the costs of having a job and childcare. There has to be a sufficient differential to make going to work viable. If the only hiring going on in town is Walmart and they pay minimum wage, going on the dole is going to pay more even if Walmart employees can often qualify for assistance. Some people will get the job at WM and tell the manager they only have very limited availability so they only have to work very few hours to qualify for the assistance and telling that mob that the hours they are getting are all that's being offered. Optimizing least effort for maximum payout. I don't think that if you have a job, the welfare office is going to require that you keep applying elsewhere as a condition for continuing benefits. I know that in many cases, one has to show job hunting has taken place for the benefits to be renewed. The way around that is to show up in 'hood clothing, face tatts and a collection of shrapnel. You just have to apply for some jobs, not try to get them.

[Steve Davies 3]

Re: good roads?

What planet are you living on? Certainly not this one.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: good roads?

Have you seen the state of American roads?

[MachDiamond]

Re: good roads?

"What planet are you living on? Certainly not this one."

I'm in the US and I think if I put an accelerometer on my car and drove down the street I'm on, it would be rougher than allowed for the transport of livestock to the slaughterhouse. They did shovel some loose asphalt into a few of the bigger holes the other day. No prep, no tamping and the street is mostly a collection of previous patching.

[Headley_Grange]

Re: The US employment hellscape

I think it's because they believe the Americal dream. They don't want employment protection, social policies and high taxes for the wealthy because they are all going to be billionaire owners of huge companies one day.

[CrazyOldCatMan]

Re: The US employment hellscape

I think it's because they believe the Americal dream

"And all the stars that never were

Are parking cars and pumping gas"

Dionne Warwick - Do you know the way to San Jose?

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: The US employment hellscape

Bacharach and David, actually.

[Michael Strorm]

Re: The US employment hellscape

Well, since they only quoted the lyrics- and not the music- that'd technically be just David, actually! :-)

[Like a badger]

Re: The US employment hellscape

But we were all silently humming or singing along to even two lines of lyrics. Surely that counts for Burt to get his credit?

[Michael Strorm]

Re: The US employment hellscape

Yeah, but if we're going to credit Bacharach on that basis, but not Dionne Warwick, the obvious question is... whose is the voice you "hear" in your head singing it?

[MachDiamond]

Re: The US employment hellscape

"and high taxes for the wealthy "

There are high taxes for high earners. You want a "wealth" tax? There's no end to that and every time the take declines, they'll just lower the threshold.

I was reading a story about California taking away the ability for some cities to have gambling where the game has a dealer. The cities were screaming about how they couldn't afford police, fire, paramedics, road repairs, etc. This is even where the city next to them does not allow gambling and pays for those things. Time to have a look at where all of their revenue is going if they'd be so poor as to have to disband the police department.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The US employment hellscape

""Well yeah, but then I get free Healthcare, good roads, "

You must be in a different part of England to where I am! The local NHS services are bad to non-existent, and many of the roads are in an awful state.

The American and UK health systems both appear to be crap, just in different ways. Most European countries manage this far better.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The US employment hellscape

Most European countries manage this far better.

Most European companies have some sort of universal health insurance schemes. Neither the US (fully private) nor the UK (fully state-run) systems work properly.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The US employment hellscape

Yeah I try to point this out, but in the UK any time anyone mentions trying to reform the NHS they point to the US and say no we don't want to be like the US, case closed, like its a binary choice.

Who in their right mind thinks the NHS is working and is the right answer, if we just throw more money at it?

[CrazyOldCatMan]

Re: The US employment hellscape

"... Nahh our systems better. America is the best!"

You forgot the "our employers don't expect us to start work 2 hours before we are supposed to and then expect us to be the last to leave at night.."

[MachDiamond]

Re: The US employment hellscape

"I've tried having discussions with Americans on this in the last few years, and I get the impression that Americans have not only been brainwashed into just thinking this is normal, but to actually enjoy the pain!"

I think some of it gets baked in through the words that get used. I didn't "ask" for a day off if I needed one. I "told" my supervisor that I wouldn't be in that day so what can I do in advance of that (if I could schedule in advance). If I hit a natural stopping point in my work at 4pm, I packed up and bid my colleagues farewell for the day/week. There was no point in fiddling around for the last hour doing nothing, really. That compensated for the days when I'd work a bit later when I was in good flow and wanted to have something all tied up in bows before I left it. The Vimes approach of working to the job, not the clock. My last employer had no issues with my time keeping. Stuff got done and I was available on request if there was something critical to do. I suggest keeping a work journal so you are always in a good position to defend your time keeping vs. work output.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The US employment hellscape

It turns out that for $600K/yr I’ll put up with a lot.

[Paul Smith]

Re: The US employment hellscape

The US median income is only $62K. The average individual income is $72K (the difference is the small number of extremely high income individuals). The "comfortable life" income is $80K. The American Dream has become a nightmare for most Americans with no way out in sight. Early days of MAGA offered hope of a change which is (arguably) one reason they got so many votes, but all that has happened is that one set of crooks has been replaced by an even greedier set.

[Vader]

Re: The US employment hellscape

USA employment laws are basically the slave trade but with 10 days holidays.

[blu3b3rry]

A friend worked as a dev at Oracle for six months

He'd previously been at Red Hat for seven years or so, got fed up with the enshittification thanks to IBM and jumped ship. He works 100% remotely due to plain and simple geography, so took on another job that offered such. Hence Oracle. Hated it.

In his words "I've never come across somewhere with morale and culture that bad. When I told my team I was leaving, at least ten of them also said they were thinking of quitting too."

I can only assume Larry Ellison supplants his cosmetic surgery by feeding off the life force of his employees....

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: A friend worked as a dev at Oracle for six months

There are many canvases in Larry's attic, including the once-beautiful portraits of Java and MySQL.

[Moldskred]

"But I’m someone who carries my laptop with me all the time and, if there is a problem that I’m working on, I don’t care if it is the weekend or Christmas, I’m going to work on that problem until it’s solved. [SNIP] I’ve seen stories about toxic work culture, but I never experienced it.”

Hmm. How does that saying go... "We don’t know who discovered water, but we know it wasn’t a fish."

[beaker_72]

The sad thing is, these are the people who are worst affected psychologically by these kind of layoffs. The first time they learn that loyalty only goes one way is when they're on the receiving end of a severance package.

[Aladdin Sane]

I believe that's the unlubed dildo of consequences.

[The Oncoming Scorn]

You'd be getting a bad vibe, that's for sure.

[Anonymous Coward]

The bubble isn't bursting...

...but 'normal' customers are taking a long time figuring out how to use the tools in a way they can trust.

Everyone is under pressure to use AI because their customers expect Ai to create cost savings.

In my line of work, we are looking at using one of the big enterprise AI offerings to reduce time take on certain tasks, and potentially it will change the nature of the work; we want to roll it out fairly fast, but anticipate even early adopters will take 6 months and only slowly expand their use, and any real change in culture will take several years.

[Dan 55]

Re: The bubble isn't bursting...

Cost savings? That won't last long. LLM providers are going to have to start charging customers the real compute cost this year.

[Michael Strorm]

Re: The bubble isn't bursting...

Bingo. LLM is *massively* subsidised at the minute, to the extent that- even with paid plans- the "true" cost is, in some cases, still several times what the customer is actually being charged.

This can't last forever, and at some stage the shit *is* going to hit the fan when they have to start charging much more.

They may have done so in an attempt to get people using *their* service, with the intent that they'll continue using it when the time comes to ramp up the price to more realistic levels. The problem is that the industry- through no-one's fault but their own- has now set customer expectations by getting them used to unrealistically low prices and high usage limits and there are signs that they *really* don't like it when they try to reign that in to even remotely realistic levels.

There are also chains of middlemen and resellers of different parts of the infrastructure, each subsiding *their* customers in turn and hiding the true usage cost from customers.

But even if- as many companies are clearly hoping- their rivals go under trying to keep up with them and they're the last man standing, there's no clear sign that customers will be willing to pay the full price for many of the things gen AI is being used for now.

Companies that have built businesses predicated on the unrealistically cost of cheap LLM infrastructure- and customers only using them in turn because they're cheap or free- aren't going to be able to pass on the full cost because it's not going to be worth it. Many people don't even really like AI fluff when it's being shoved in their face for free.

Doesn't matter even if their LLM provider is in a position to say "fuck you, pay me". If they can't make enough to do so, they'll either go under or cut their losses before that happens.

This is an interesting take on the whole house of cards where almost everyone is taking a loss at every stage and there's no clear way the majority will be able to charge enough to turn a profit.

It's called the "Subprime AI Crisis" by analogy with the 2008 subprime property crisis, where the bubble was driven by misleadingly low interest rates in the short term and convincing them they could afford something they really couldn't when interest rates went up- in short, because the true cost of borrowing was hidden from people, just as is the case with AI.

[M.V. Lipvig]

Re: The bubble isn't bursting...

The AI companies expect that, by the time they need to raise prices, their customers will have let go of their employees and have the workflows fully into the AI system. So it will be pay or go out of business, or pay while they hire and train new employees which won't fly because of the double tap on finances. Few will be able to pay the AI costs while training new headcount. Instead they'll just try to make a go of it.

[Michael Strorm]

Re: The bubble isn't bursting...

Yes, I assume that lock-in is definitely one of their aims, but this rests on the assumption that they *will* be able to lock people in as you describe *and* being able to do so for a long enough term to get a decent amount of money out of them without killing them off.

I mean, if the AI companies have them over a "pay us or die" barrel and that's no longer economically workable, then they *can't* pay and their customer dies. Which I doubt they'll care about per se, but they won't get paid regardless.

All this is speculation, but it shows that even "lock in" profits- and the economics of AI in general- depend upon a risky game of poker that ludicrous amounts of money are invested in.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: The bubble isn't bursting...

"customers are taking a long time figuring out how to use the tools in a way they can trust."

Perhaps that's because they are intrinsically untrustworthy.

"their customers expect Ai to create cost savings."

Either their expectations are of further ensittification or they're wearing rose-tinted AI-enhanced glasses.

"we are looking at using one of the big enterprise AI offerings to reduce time take on certain tasks"

Axe you prepared to pay what it actually costs to run the AI DCs instead of loss-leader rates?

"only slowly expand their use"

This may save you if you're only partly committed before the price goes up or your supplier goes bust (depending on which happens first.

[strayviking]

gliding to to a long lonely retirement

I don’t know how anyone can say ‘I’m getting to the end of my career, at least I don’t have kidss to worry about’ sand not find it sad - People make their choices but for me, I’m glad to have kids to worry about and can’t see the point of toiling for the man otherwise - just go and be a ski bum, or write code in your garage and change the world but the idea of toiling for Oracle ‘for the love of Larry’ - oh boy - nej tak.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: gliding to to a long lonely retirement

Could simply mean that they're independent so he doesn't have to worry about the cost of supporting them.

[M.V. Lipvig]

Re: gliding to to a long lonely retirement

That was my assumption as well. I'm in the same boat, close to retirement and kids are out of the house and on their own.

I am planning my retirement for July 1 of this year, but due to the severance packages my company offers I will actually be waiting for them to walk me out the door. I'll be a good little employee until then, after that I'll be napping at my desk a lot waiting for the next layoff.

[doublelayer]

Re: gliding to to a long lonely retirement

One possibility is that they had kids, but now that they're nearing retirement, they no longer have all the expensive parts involved in raising them. They could still see their adult kids in their retirement.

If they don't have them, then they decided that a while ago, given the close to retirement aspect. It might make people more lonely later, but I would want a better reason to have children than for the purposes of entertainment during retirement, and some people who don't have them have strong friend networks or large extended families which can also provide it. Everyone has a different reason to or not to have children, so I'm not surprised that one person's decision won't work for someone else or that some people will eventually regret the decision they made.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: gliding to to a long lonely retirement

.. Or they had children but the children are dead.

In an ideal world children outlive their parents. The world is not always ideal.

[disgruntled yank]

Uncle Larry?

https://simonwillison.net/2024/Sep/17/bryan-cantrill/

Bryan Cantrill was at Sun Micro before Orcle bought it.

[Taliesinawen]

Oracle fell for the AI hype

ClippyAI: "The Oracle's layoffs aren't because AI is suddenly productive. They're happening because Oracle bought too heavily into the AI hype and over invested in data centers. Now in a cash crunch, the company is cutting jobs to free up cash. These layoffs look like an emergency cost-cutting move caused by overspending on AI infrastructure."

[Anonymous Coward]

Seen this movie before, but this time the killer is IN the house

Show of hands: who has EVER seen an Oracle implementation go bad? Anybody? Bueller?

[Tim99]

Started with Oracle V4

Stopped using it for new projects on Version 7 - I think the late 1980s was the first time that I heard "One Rich Arsehole Called Larry Ellison"?

[Blue Screen of Bleurgh]

No doubt all the big guns who are investing big bucks into AI will be doing the same sooner or later - thousands of people told their services are no longer required because you're a) expensive, b) only work 37 hours a week, and require time off for holidays and sick days; c) too slow, too unreliable, too old school.

Therefore tens of thousands of white collar workers will find themselves on the scrapheap much in the same way blue collar workers did during the 70s, 80s and 90s and the advent of automation, especially in the car industry.

The CEOs will just call it collateral damage and move on seeking every greater profits and bonuses - until the shit hits the fan, which it surely will sooner or later. But by then it won't matter because pockets will have been well and truly filled with lovely lucre, along with very nice pensions and golden fuckoffs. They won't give a shit when the company goes south.

[steviebuk]

Never saw the toxic work culture

Sounds like its because you were part of it.

That mentality is the reason why companies get away with it. Expecting ALL their employees to work on their off days if there is a big issue cause "Ted does and he's been here for years, you don't see him saying he's tired and needs time off for the family. And Ted doesn't expect overtime"

“I wasn’t lured in by the high salaries or the great benefits. The benefits were great. But I’m someone who carries my laptop with me all the time and, if there is a problem that I’m working on, I don’t care if it is the weekend or Christmas, I’m going to work on that problem until it’s solved.”

[An_Old_Dog]

Can't Log In?!

"I can't log into Outlook!! Am I fired, or us it just Outlook crapping out again?"

[Joe User]

Then he checked his email and discovered that he was one of the estimated thousands of Oracle employees who had received a message saying that their services were no longer required.

"Basically it said 'Thank you. Go (expletive) yourself,'" he told The Register.

"I've seen stories about toxic work culture, but I never experienced it."

No, you just got a "Don't let the doorknob hit you on the way out" dismissal.

[AlanPennington7]

I imagine a big chunk will be phone support people. Be prepared to talk to a bot the next time you have to contact Oracle for help.

[Vader]

All this AI stuff is hype. When it pops and it will the company has 153 billion in debt, be interesting what happens. It's a MAGA supporter so maybe trump and co can help it when it goes pop.