ServiceNow allegedly says salesman 'overachieved' and is not entitled to comp

ServiceNow is refusing to pay a salesman commissions on more than $27 million in sales, telling the 13-year veteran of the company that he "overperformed" his quota and insisting that instead he sign paperwork that retroactively reduces the commission amount, according to a federal lawsuit filed by the salesperson. ServiceNow …

[Throatwarbler Mangrove]

The Oracle gambit

I normally associate these tactics with Oracle, but I'm not surprised to see them here since they seem endemic to the tech industry. I don't understand, at all, the thinking behind these decisions by management to screw over the sales team. Keeping one's contractual agreements with staff ought to be a simple enough matter of ethics, good business, and law, but time and time again, I read stories like this. I would also think the company would *want* the sales team to overachieve and reward them proportionally since that means more revenue for the company.

[twelvebore]

Re: The Oracle gambit

Perhaps the lower-middle management are feeling threatened by someone below them overachieving?

Wouldn't want to come under pressure from the middle-middle management to maybe match that sort of performance.

Better to just shit on the sales dudes excellent performance and pretend like nothing happened, and nobody will know a thing. Well, that worked out well!

[Mimsey Borogove]

Re: The Oracle gambit

Perhaps the lower-middle management are feeling threatened by someone below them overachieving?

This actually happened to me, on a far smaller scale - I was working as seasonal help at a Green Stamp store (Green Stamps were given to grocery customers after every sale, a certain number per dollar of purchase. Customers could paste them into books and take the books to stores, where they could be used to buy items). Usually, the permanent staff pooled their commissions, so much per book sold (when people didn't have enough stamps to buy what they wanted), and seasonal help kept whatever commissions they made. I made enough commission that they made me put mine in the pool, which would have disincentivized me to sell them if I had actually thought about it!

The lesson Service Now obviously wants to teach is, sell your quota, then knock off for the rest of the quarter.

[I ain't Spartacus]

Re: The Oracle gambit

We had a very difficult sales meeting with a principal - who soon after sacked us. We're a sales agent for equipment manufacturers in the building services industry. Our crime? Our commission payments had doubled in a year. And management were unhappy about "giving us" all this extra money. How did we achieve this cunning plan to rob our erstwhile client? Merely by doubling the sales of their product in a year. A grave crime, I think we can all agree. Shame on us for being so greedy!

[Noodle]

Re: The Oracle gambit

If you've got a guy regularly closing $20M deals you want to work out how you can pay him MORE to keep him on the team, not screw him over so he leaves for a competitor. Do these people even understand how business works?

[DoctorNine]

Re: The Oracle gambit

It's not about the logic of profit. It's about the psychology of hierarchy and primate dominance.

Some days, I really, really hate the human species.

[Aladdin Sane]

Re: The Oracle gambit

Only some days?

[Kane]

Re: The Oracle gambit

"Only some days?"

Any day ending in Y

[theOtherJT]

Re: The Oracle gambit

Some days when I don't have to work I sleep in, have a late brunch then go for a walk in the woods. Then I go and sit in the pub with a book until teatime and get through the whole day without reading any news, going on social media, or speaking to any people other than the nice man who poured my beer. If, after that, I manage to get home, cook, and then watch comfort TV until bedtime without hearing or seeing anything stupid then - on those rare days - I manage not to hate the rest of humanity.

These are not common days.

[werdsmith]

Re: The Oracle gambit

I tried that, walking in the woods I arrived at a fly tipping site so that was the end of that.

[Ace2]

Re: The Oracle gambit

THIS

[Sudosu]

Re: The Oracle gambit

Are they easier to tip than cows?

PS- I had to look up what a fly tipping site was

[StewartWhite]

Re: The Oracle gambit

"Are they easier to tip than cows?"

I don't know about easier but they appreciate a few pence whereas a cow will fill your face with methane if it's anything less than £10.

[BonezOz]

Re: The Oracle gambit

For corporations, at the end of the day it's more about the profit than the people who bring in the profit. Jorge will get his commission, eventually, then will be asked to resign so that ServiceNow can bring a new sales person in on a lower commission.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The Oracle gambit

That would be unfair dismissal in the UK. See you in the employment tribunal. Thankfully.

[Roland6]

Re: The Oracle gambit

It’s a good thing Unison took the government to the Supreme Court and got the Tory government’s 2013 introduction of fees ruled unlawful.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The Oracle gambit

The US hydra really is rotting from it's heads down.

Sadly the contagion spreads.

[Kurgan]

Re: The Oracle gambit

Dell did this to a friend of mine 10 years ago. (and I've heard they did it to a lot of sales people)

Even one of my ex-customers, a small business of 10 people (not a big multinational) did this to their only salesman 20 years ago.

It seems it's quite common.

[Roland6]

Re: The Oracle gambit

I suspect many don’t realise until too late, commission payments can become due before the first invoice has been raised on a contract. Thus need to be paid using whatever is currently in the bank account. We always included a clause in the sales commission payment to permit payments to be scheduled. Hence the salesperson who got a £100m contract signed had their £3m commission paid over 3 years, with first payment being made after the customer had paid the first invoice. This incentivised the sale's teams to write contracts with signing and staged payment schedules, resulting in better cash flow and reduced borrowing…

[I could be a dog really]

Re: The Oracle gambit

I can only suspect that had this bunch of $[expletives] turned round and said "yes we'll pay you, but can you wait a while for some of it until we've been paid by the customer ?" then he might well have agreed. But they didn't, they just turned round and said they weren't paying what he'd earned according to the contract they'd signed with him.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The Oracle gambit

I bet CEO Bill McDermott‘s renumeration isn’t capped by ‘overachievement’.

I’m sure the reputational damage/negative press this has caused is orders of magnitude worse than stiffing the salesman of his commission.

Fuckers.

[Richard 71]

Re: The Oracle gambit

The problem is that he will earn more than the management. I saw this happen at NCR, when a salesman closed a huge deal on ATM's. The MD didn't want to pay him because then he would earn more then the MD.

The arrogance, narcissim, and jealosy displayed by management in the tech sector is unbelievable.

If you win a deal, all of management are your best friend and tell everyone who will listen how much they contributed to the deal. If you lose a sale, you become a pariah, with management placing all the blame on you - they weren't involved at all.

[Philip Storry]

ServiceNow have achieved the impossible

They have made me feel sympathy for someone in sales.

I may even be taking his side.

And I suspect I'm not alone.

What evil is this, that it can move us so unnaturally? Shall we see it vanquished, or will we be forced to ally with salespeople evermore? Ye gods, I hope not... we live in such strange and desperate times!

[Korev]

Re: ServiceNow have achieved the impossible

> They have made me feel sympathy for someone in sales.

SNOW joke

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: ServiceNow have achieved the impossible

Came here to say the same thing. Found it said better.

[Philip Storry]

Re: ServiceNow have achieved the impossible

Thank you!

[jake]

Re: ServiceNow have achieved the impossible

Indeed.

But it's not evil to dislike a multi billion dollar company screwing any employee out of a mere couple hundred thousand dollars. Even a sales-droid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: ServiceNow have achieved the impossible

To be fair to the Sales person ... IF he is over-acheiving to that degree then he is NOT a Sales-Droid and is doing a very good job !!!

I will pat a Sales person on the back if they are that good and it is good for everyone in the company as it creates work for all.

I have noticed this 'reluctance' to paid owed commissions in my career and ALWAYS take the side of the Sales person if they have got the sales fairly and within the rules of his/her contract.

Sales can be a pain BUT good Sales are to be encouraged.

:)

[Aladdin Sane]

Re: ServiceNow have achieved the impossible

To be fair

[theOtherJT]

Re: ServiceNow have achieved the impossible

Trouble is sales-droids often perform well on the "I shifted a lot of units" or "I got a really big contract" terms.

If the units are fit for purpose, or if the contact covers what the customer thought it would cover is the bit that gets the sales droids a bad name, because the reason we normally hate the bastards is that they so often promise the moon on a stick and then once they've already been paid we discover that what they sold us, and what their company could actually deliver on, were entirely different things.

Numbers alone don't prove much right here.

[The Organ Grinder's Monkey]

Re: ServiceNow have achieved the impossible

My first thought was would the employees & "customers" of Birmingham (& Sussex) councils have any sympathy for either side if this was a story about Oracle rather than ServiceNow?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bill Lumbergh unavailable for comment

Initech ServiceNow should be asking itself whether screwing a motivated employee out of an earned paycheck was worth demotivating every other employee who will now wonder if they're next.

Might as well just fix the payroll "glitch" and start moving employees down to the basement. Sales might actually go up if everyone at Initech ServiceNow has to work from home for a while and not put up with these shitty managers.

[Claude Yeller]

Management Bonuses

I assume the problem for "ServiceNow" is that the bonus of this salesperson will come out of the bonuses of his management team. Or worse, he might get a bigger bonus than his bosses!

That is not how this is supposed to go.

[kmorwath]

Re: Management Bonuses

Exactly.

And how this situation never happens for executive bonuses? I've never seen an headline alike "Company X profits increases 100%, CEO bonus halved!" "CEO says, yes, I overachieved my target, so the board has asked me to sign a new contract retroactively stating far higher targets".

I think I've seen headlinkes like "Company X losses reduced 10%, CEO bonus doubled!!"

[Kurgan]

Re: Management Bonuses

Yes, this is the whole point. Some manager does not accept the idea that an underling can get more money than them.

[Sykowasp]

The sums involved are not even that high for high performance sales roles.

This seems really penny pinching from ServiceNow, but we know they like to penny pinch when it comes to things like UX and UI design too.

I presume his base salary reflected his targets as well. If they want to raise his target, they need to accept that means he needs a higher base salary to reflect that.

I suspect that he will win this in the end. In the meantime I expect record low sales for the company due to motivation issues.

[Anonymous Coward]

Penny wise and pound foolish.

Wonder how much HR spends on recruiting and corporate team building exercises. In manager speak, it would seem the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing -- except in this case, it seems the left hand picked up a hammer and started smashing the right hand's fingers.

[Doctor Syntax]

Left hand is picking the right hand's pocket.

[Bebu sa Ware]

Penny wise and pound foolish.

Wrong side of the North Atlantic for that saw.

Unsurprising really as it is where nickel and dime emerged as a transitive verb.

Not too keen on humanity either at the best of times, but…

each and every dāy to my growing dismāy I discover a new wāy to hate the USĀ.

ServiceNo ?

[David Austin]

I'm expecting ServiceNow to offer to settle at the last minute after dragging out for as long as possible.

In the meantime, this sounds like an excellent incentive for their other sales agents to get *very creative* about booking revenue in a way that would have made Autonomy blush...

[Mimsey Borogove]

I'm expecting ServiceNow to offer to settle at the last minute

They would! Even though he's being less greedy than I've ever seen in this kind of situation - he's only asking for twice what he's owed, and the lawyers will take most of the extra. When have you seen anyone suing recently asking for less than a million dollars?

[retiredFool]

Agree, I recall a sales guy getting around 2M one time for a very large deal that was a surprise. Nobody was unhappy. He got 2M, the co got 30, well 28 I think. And I've seen incentive plans with sweeteners if you go over some amount over quota giving even more cash to the sales guy on a positive surprise. And let's be real, if they miss quota a couple times, no one sheds a tear over them being let go.

I also saw a real ahole prez delay setting the quota's until summer. Hmm, now that he had a better idea how much you'd sell he could adjust the quota. A real piece of work that guy was. I despised the guy and left a while later. And I wasn't even in sales, but just could not stand to be in the same bldg as him let alone the same room.

[xyz123]

SAP has a more upto date and easier-to-develop/customize product that they've pitched DIRECTLY against Servicenow.

They need to snaffle this guy with a big sign-up bonus, as well as all the other "over performers" in Servicenow.

Obviously Servicenow will be happy to see these nasty terrible salespeople who CONSTANTLY keep selling a metric shit-ton of product on vast lucrative contracts go out the door ASAP.....

SAP has a big opportunity to essentially cripple Servicenow. Steal their marketing, salespeople, even tech support who if THEY overperform will also be punished.....

Take the cream of the crop from them whilst the chance presents itself and watch Servicenow crash n burn.

[Caver_Dave]

We used to use the RemedyForce system, but recently moved to ServiceNow. It's ticketing system is absolute crap in comparison to the older RemedyForce.

It looks like it was written by a teenager who has never created or resolved a service ticket in their life.

[Anonymous Coward]

Remedy

@Caver_Dave I guess nothing changes, then. We used to use Remedy twenty-five years ago before they were bought out by Peregrine and BMC, and the UI for it then was atrocious. I would have hoped lessons may have been learned in the interim, but fat chance of that.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've used a lot of ticketing systems, most of them are crap. It does make a difference how well they've been set up in the first place though

[Mimsey Borogove]

Great idea!

[Fred Daggy]

So work hard and you'll be rewawded, they said ...

Seems that rewards are only for the C-Suite, not for the working plebs.

Sign a contract, work hard, acheive stellar levels ... get stiffed. I can see that a deal with Salesforce can be basically changed whenever they like. Thus, I'm making a mental note to put them in the same bin as Oracle.

"Let them eat cake", indeed.

[cookiecutter]

Re: So work hard and you'll be rewawded, they said ...

in the modern world only an idiot works hard for their employer. i'm tired of crying board members whining that the people they've screwed over for decades have figured out that it's all a con

[Anonymous Coward]

Disgusted, but not surprised

A long time ago in $BIG_CORP it was announced with much fanfare that salaries below the relevant paybands would be raised to the minimum of said paybands. I was happy to hear that as it meant I could give one of my guys (a hard worker, produced results - and this wasn't even someone who made gazillions) a 15% raise so I swiftly entered that in the HR system.

It didn't take long for my manager and then HR (both had to finally approve before it would be processed) to call me and ask if I had lost my mind. "Give him 5% now and next year we'll see what we can do". My protests concerning following the process were ignored.

Plus ça change...

[xyz123]

well that took me 5mins of checking.

Someone high-up in Servicenow is trying to dash the company against the rocks, lower its value and buy it out. Two guesses who it is!!!!!!!

So they're driving their top salespeople away, are about to instigate a MASSIVE (and possibly illegal) Fire & Rehire, lowering a vast number of employees salaries by 22%.

Triggering a brain drain so the company can be subject to a cheap and very illegal takeover.

IRS and SEC need to become involved as this is direct shareprice manipulation AND Insider Trading.

[Anonymous Coward]

> IRS and SEC need to become involved as this is direct shareprice manipulation AND Insider Trading.

I'm sure they'll get right on that after they nail the bigger crooks.

The Hill: Murphy on ‘$1.5 BILLION’ stock trade before Trump Iran announcement: ‘Mind blowing corruption’

"Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.) on Monday drew attention to an unusually large oil stock trade that occurred moments before President Trump announced a five-day pause on previously threatened energy infrastructure strikes in Iran, indicating it appeared be a case of insider trading."

"In an X post highlighted by Murphy, a stock market watcher said, 'In one move, $1.5 billion in S&P 500 (ES) futures was bought while $192 million in oil (CL) futures was sold.'”

"'$1.5 BILLION. Let me say it again – a $1.5 BILLION BET. Bigger than any futures purchases made at the time. 5 minutes before Trump’s post,' Murphy wrote in his own post."

[DS999]

Even if Trump's SEC gives that a pass and even if Trump pardons his crony (or kid) that did it, a future SEC could ban that person for life from being able to trade at all - because that's an administrative action, not possible to block by pardons which only cover criminal conduct. They might be able to do a civil fine procedure making them disgorge that profit, plus interest. Not sure whether that would be possible or not, though whoever made off with $1.5 billion might decide to leave the US and never come back to avoid having to pay that back.

[O'Reg Inalsin]

So the salesman will win his case but will have to take a haircut as a creditor after bankruptcy?

[Mimsey Borogove]

IRS and SEC need to become involved as this is direct shareprice manipulation AND Insider Trading.

This would be a great idea if we still had functioning regulatory agencies, but the teeth have been pulled from every agency that's supposed to rein in business and/or protect consumers.

[nematoad]

Time to move on?

'overachieved to a degree that was outside normal' in relation to his sales quota.

So what is the problem?

Do those dullards in higher management not realise that the more this salesman sells the more money Servicenow will ultimately make?

Surely the very act of closing such deals will be self-financing, if it is not why have incentives in the first place?

Of course it could be insecurity in the higher management or just plain jealousy.

Oh, why is the man still working for such a bunch of arseholes?

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Time to move on?

"Oh, why is the man still working for such a bunch of arseholes?"

Maybe it increases his expectations from the legal process. Something like the commission that should be paid plus exemplary damages, then walk.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Time to move on?

When I was first in sales that required high levels of technical expertise, I made sure that the commission payments were clear and concise as I knew we had a great but complex product being launched at a trade show. In theory there was no upper limit on the amount I could make. The company was expecting 5-6 total orders during the show and I managed 20 with deposits on my own.

M.D. (son of the Chairman) 'We can't pay you this much money!' He 'suggested' 10%............

In the early 80's this full commission was going to buy me a (very) small house in London. I stuck to my guns and demanded a meeting with the Chairman, a sensible older guy who had been a salesman for years before starting his own company, and his 'very firm' advice to his twat of a son re the morale of the whole sales team, company honesty, keeping me employed by their company and not their competitors and the fact that I'd worked my tail-bone off to get the orders, was to give me an additional bonus on top. I got the money and the additional bonus paid for some furniture.

When the Chairman died two years later I left the company and started my own.

[Richard 71]

Re: Time to move on?

It's not about what's good for the company - it's about the fact that an underling will have more income than the management. Jelousy, greed, envy.- it's the way of managers everywhere.

[BartyFartsLast]

Scumbags

Peddling garbage AI infested crap, they both deserve to get rinsed in the courts and I'm having a difficult time deciding who I want to lose.

[trevorde]

How to incentivise your salespeople

One of our friends ran a *very* successful company. She was always trying to figure out ways to pay her salespeople *more* money. She pointed out that the more commission she was paying, the more sales they were making and, hence, the more profit they made. Looking back, it wasn't rocket science.

[dmesg]

Re: How to incentivise your salespeople

Same thing goes with real estate, or other commissioned sales. I'd much rather give the sales agent a good commission, and good motivation to sell my house (or in one case, a highly-sought after Martin guitar model), then try to wheedle them into a dispiriting task that sinks to the bottom of their to-do list. Gets ya' good offers, quick. Make the sale and move on.

[springsmarty]

I am amazed when a company makes an agreement with an employee (often not negotiated) and then defaults. Likely they just announced the “agreement” in the guise of a compensation plan. The salesperson played by the company rules and now the company wants to keep the revenue but not pay the commission. It might be a little different if the salesperson negotiated the compensation plan, but they likely did not.

[ecofeco]

Being an American company, I'm not surprised at all.

[Great Southern Land]

Screwing Over Employees 101

The employment contract probably had a clause allowing the company to change it at any time, without the employee's agreement.

Amazing what they're teaching MBA candidates at Wharton and Harvard Business Schools these days.

[Marty McFly]

Dim future for ServiceNow

Closing big deals like those are a multi-year effort. Public Sector is a b*tch to deal with. I'll bet it took the better part of his 13-year stint to build up those relationships.

The company will lose in the long run. No top-tier sales reps will go near ServiceNow with their resume. ServiceNow will only get bottom sales reps that have trouble meeting quotas at other tech companies.

Tech companies compete for sales reps the same way they compete for customers. And good sales reps have no company loyalty. They perform and they expect to be compensated per their contract. Commissions pay for loyalty. Word will get around.

Screwing sales reps on commissions guarantees the top performers will go to the competition...and have no compunction about stealing ServiceNow's lunch tomorrow. Their professional contacts in the industry is not a list the company gets to keep.

Non-compete? When it comes to sales that isn't worth the paper it is written on. Non-compete is only really useful when dealing with intellectual property - code, patents, etc. They cannot block a tech sales person from working in their chosen career field. (Which explains why tech sales people rarely know much about their products - the company will not share deep tech details with them.)

Don't bother putting a 'Bluebird' clause in their contract either to limit pay out for big deals. That is the quick way to end a revenue stream.

Commission sales is coin operated, and they are not idiots. Hate it all you want, but that is how the game works.

[TheCobbler]

And what about forcing arbitration?

Equally troubling is ServiceNow's attempt to force him into (unfair) arbitration as opposed to playing this out in the court system. ServiceNow pays the company that handles arbitration and can coerce a deal. Arbitration is supposed to fair, but it certainly is not. They must believe that they do not have a legal standing. They certainly do not have an ethical or moral standing.

[Blue Screen of Bleurgh]

Incompetent CEOs and senior pencilheads pick up nice bonuses and pay rises for being shit at their jobs!

Competent grunts further down the ladder, work hard, tick the right boxes, bring the money in only to find they get stiffed by some hastily written small print in their T&Cs, and then if they kick up to much a fuss end up fired for being good at their jobs.

So much for the work ethic and incentivising your teams

[AVR]

It's not even going to save them money

It looks like a clear case of breach of contract and IMO the guy is more than 50% likely to win his double the commission payout. How does doing this work for ServiceNow? Is putting off the payment as valuable as all that?

[Fruit and Nutcase]

Re: It's not even going to save them money

The lawyers' fees should be more than they were hoping to save

[Daniel Pfeffer]

Re: It's not even going to save them money

A company of that size presumably has in-house lawyers, or external lawyers on retainer.

[Ryan D]

Dear gods…

This may be the first sales guy that the BOFH and PFY might try to help. Just when you thought you couldn’t out Oracle Oracle.

[Jon Bar]

Historical note -

Ross Perot used to be a salesman for IBM. One year he hit his sales quote in, I think it was January. So he went off and started EDS in 1962. Some things never change.

[IrritatedUser]

AIbola backwash

Contrary to some of the previous posts which express reluctant sympathy for the devil, I have decided that everyone involved is getting a little bit of the strife they deserve.

Salesforce software is infused/infected with AI.

The sales guy is therefore an AIbola peddler.

And this from Varicent's home page

"Empower sellers to do their best work. Get back the revenue you’re losing, without adding headcount or new pipeline.

It’s the system-level, GenAI unlock for modern GTM team"

Reject sympathy or despair.

Choose schadenfreude.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: AIbola backwash

Don't drive until it wears off.

[Flat Phillip]

Amateurs

There are way better methods of doing this.

1. Make the commission only payable if you meet your performance criteria

2. Have a small, say 5% of the criteria be something that is hard to measure

3. Make that 5% mandatory (so if you don't "pass" you fail all of it)

4. Oh dear, you didn't meet the (largely unstated) bar for that 5%

That's what a real scumbag corp would do, bonus points for doing it at different times so you don't join the dots initially.

- Signed ex-presales of Scumbag Corp

[Jou (Mxyzptlk)]

Is ServiceNow in a Union, the bad type?

Reading this in the Union-Busting US, and in this case the management side, lets my jaw drop.

Unions are generally good, we just had a hand full of historic bad examples where workers were pushed into the "you are too fast!" scheme to avoid "shaming" all others.

And this time it is used the other way, like ServiceNow itself is the "Union", using the century old "overachiever" term in a way I never expected. (Never expected means: I was just lucky that I haven't read this way around yet, especially from the USA-hustle-consume-showoffyouarerich-rinserepeat culture)

[M.V. Lipvig]

Re: Is ServiceNow in a Union, the bad type?

There is a huge difference between US unions and European unions. They are as different as the European badger and the American badger. I would have no problems joining a European worker's union but would rather find a new job than join a fundraising arm of the US Democrat party. US unions are only interested in helping employees make more as dues go up. They do not care if the higher wages cause the company to go under, and more than once have stopped representing groups of employees because the cost of representstion was more than the employees would return. European unions will work with company management for the betterment of the company. They'll fight for the worker's share of profits, but recognize that the workers are better served by keeping the goose alive and producing golden eggs long term. When the goose is struggling will agree to a smaller share of the golden eggs until the goose can produce again. A US union will just carve up the goose by pushing higher wages based on past performance and not current realities, grab that last gold egg, let the company go under and tell the workers "call us when you find another goose."

[The Organ Grinder's Monkey]

Re: Is ServiceNow in a Union, the bad type?

Possibly you're correct about European unions these days, but it definitely wasn't the case in the 70s.The unions that Arthur Scargill (mine workers), Derek "Red Robbo" Robinson (car production) fronted, & the one that the Timex employees were represented by all displayed classic goose-killing tendencies, & they weren't alone.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Is ServiceNow in a Union, the bad type?

I think the distinction is between UK unions (at least of that era) and continental European unions. The only union I was ever in was of that era and was an even stranger beast - allegedly representing scientific civil servants it was quite happy to deploy its membership on behalf of the general service grades instead but did nothing to level up its members pay scales. Many of us left.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Is ServiceNow in a Union, the bad type?

"The unions that Arthur Scargill (mine workers),"

Not the mining companies who treated them like slaves and government who sided with the mining corporations as they were literally paid to do so?

There are always corporate ass lickers, like this guy.

[tiggity]

Re: Is ServiceNow in a Union, the bad type?

@The Organ Grinder's Monkey

Oh, the awful 70's

Back when a working class family could often buy a house just with one (typically the husband) wage earner.

Where the pay gap between CEO & shop floor workers was large, but not the ludicrously huge orders of magnitude difference it is today.

Decent pension schemes.

A time when people could easily find a new job if the current one was bad.

I'm sure plenty of "normal earners" would love the 70's back, when they compare their buying power now with the buying power of a typical working class job back then.

[Anonymous Coward]

All Salespeople Get Screwed Over

There are two types of tech sales people. Those that have been screwed on commission and those that have been completely screwed on commission.

This is sadly normal practice in tech sales. If you search for incidents like this you’ll find hundreds.

I have never met a tech sales person that hasn’t had a battle over commission payments. The company will promise you the world until the order comes in. Then the goal posts get moved.

HPE are one of the worst offenders. They’ve been sued many times for not paying sales people.

Tactics involve:

Changing quota mid year.

Moving an order in to the next financial year.

Booking orders under someone else’s name.

Booking orders under a product code not in your sales plan.

There’s loads more.

[Anonymous Coward]

US employment laws

You could tell this was a US story before you saw any reference to location.

Employee being screwed over in some what that seems completely crazy to Europeans, must be the USA.

I'm just surprised no US employer has demanded jus primae noctis from it's employees.

[Bebu sa Ware]

Re: US employment laws

"I'm just surprised no US employer has demanded jus primae noctis from it's employees."

Personally I would be more surprised if they didn't.

I suppose the employee screwed after hours might claim overtime personally or in lieu of their spouse.

"America? Don’t talk to me about America. Funny, how just when you think America can’t possibly get any worse it suddenly does. I’ve calculated your chance of survival, but I don’t think you’ll like it. This will all end in tears. I just know it." — With apologies to Marvin and Canada.

[Dan 55]

Re: US employment laws

Lately they seem to be going backwards in terms of workers rights and healthcare... and that's taking account that their starting point about a year ago before the current occupier in the White House was about 100 years behind the rest of the western world.

[cookiecutter]

"why doesn't anyone have any loyalty?!"

scream CEOs every time!

anyone who does sitting but the absolute minimum for their employer is a nut.

The crying about "GrnZ being lazy" because they don't do free over time, stay late, work lunch hours, jump jobs, come into the office & pop headphones in then leave on time....

Yes! they SAW you fire their grandparents at a moments notice, they saw how their parents got divorced because one of them was working so much & you still fired them! They've seen decades of modern corporate capitalism & offshoring, the removal of benefits, the removal of job safety, the removal of any sort of care for the employees....

WHY would anyone do anything BUT the absolute minimum

[Anonymous Coward]

Spaff the next deal

Get the next deal lined up

Then ask the manger to agree the payment and when he says no go back to the client and explain that the sales persons loss of trust in his employer is a cause of concern and the client should really now take it as a warning.

Suddenly the payment of £200k will seem like peanuts when the £20 mill walks away

[nichomach]

If that's how they treat their staff...

...especially the high-achieving ones, I'm not keen to become a customer.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: If that's how they treat their staff...

It's not uncommon for high flying staff to be treated like dirt the same as everyone else.

My BiL is a world leader in what he does in a very lucrative but very niche area.

He worked for a very large UK telco doing programme managment but also was bringing in a lot of additional business, millions of £ every month. In addition due to his level of specialism he was effectively irreplaceable to the business. There is no one else to employ.

They still screwed him over on salary and promised bonuses, and couldn't care less when he walked. The millions they lost by losing him didn't even register.

He moved over to a rival supplier and is running billion € projects for them. But now that company is screwing him over as well.

The lesson? Have zero loyalty to the company, you are nothing to them no matter how much money you make them.

[Anonymous Coward]

What happened to fables and fairy tales...

Something to do with a goose, eggs and gold. I used to bemoan the lack of education for critical thinking (especially in regards to finance), but it sure feels like something more fundamental is missing....

[disgruntled yank]

They should be running a casino or a sports book

You're allowed to do anything but make significant money.

[Caver_Dave]

Re: They should be running a casino or a sports book

That didn't go too well for Trump!

[disgruntled yank]

Re: They should be running a casino or a sports book

That is what certain circles in Washington refer to as "the special genius of this president", I suppose

[Anonymous Coward]

Happened to me

This happened to me. I had a very challenging year during Covid but exceeded my quota massively due to hard work and skill. My American manager told me “we aren’t paying the commission”. For over a year I went through internal processes to persuade them to honour the comp plan. During that time they tried to stress me to the max (dragged everything out for months, sent emails on Friday evening requesting reply quickly. 101 legal practice I get.). When I exhausted the internal processes I handed my notice in and they tried to block me working for a competitor for 12 months! It got negotiated to 6. Without them compensating me for loss of income. Welcome to the U.K. where there are limited employee rights and the Legal system only works for the rich. I spent quite a lot on legal advice but could not afford the costs to take them to high court. It wreaked havoc on my body and well being. As other people noted - I took my skills elsewhere. The managers no doubt got their bonuses related to my hard work. I’m massively out of pocket for performing and being number one in the world that year.

[WolfFan]

Ah. The Circuit City Solution

For those who don’t know, Circuit City was once a major electronics/appliance/damn near everything else retail chain. It went boom over a decade ago. Why? Because management were IDIOTS. What did they do?

They looked at the bottom line and noticed that payroll was a major expense, and that certain people stuck out as pulling down a LOT of cash. This was because sales staff were allocated a base pay (something like $8-9/hour, a.k.a. not much more than Federal minimum wage at the time) plus commissions on every sale. Some of their really good sales staff were making an order of magnitude more than their base pay because of commissions. So management fired the top 10% of these overachivers. For some reason this did not have the desired effect on the bottom line, so they fired the top 10% of those remaining, and offered to rehire them, a month later, at something like $7/hour base pay and reduced commission rates. There was an exodus of good sales staff to Best Buy (still around) and CompUSA (no longer with us). Management also decided to stop selling large appliances (refrigerators, ovens, etc.) literally months before the great housing boom of the early 21st century massively increased home appliance sales. Management also spun off CarMax (still around) and some other subsideraries, mostly still around. Management was surprised that their bottom line contined to fall. Management tried for Chapter 11 bankruptcy; it didn’t work. They went Chapter 7; the guys who had bought CompUSA bought their inventory and website and dumped the brick-and-mortar retail sites. Circuit City now exists only as a web site which looks amazingly like the CompUSA and Tiger Direct, two other brands bought by SystemX, sites.

Amazing how firing the 10% best sales guys for being too good at their jobs, then doing it again, really motivates sales guys to go out and sell. Really. Truly. Or maybe not…

I look forwards to the Great ServiceNow Implosion. I’m getting my popcorn ready.

[An_Old_Dog]

The Sales Game

Sorry, you have overachieved.

Your score is: 0

Player 1 credit remaining: 1

Play again (Y/n)?

[The Organ Grinder's Monkey]

Re: The Sales Game

Less a game, more a simulator?

[Anonymous Coward]

"It wants a federal judge to move the legal fight out of the courts and to arbitration"

Which is basically admission of guilt. There's literally no other reason to do so once they've let it go all the way to the court.

[Moldskred]

Then what are they for?

And here I thought the entire _point_ of commissions on sales _was_ to make salespeople overachieve.

[Anonymous Coward]

Whilst working for Idiot Bloody Management, as "only a fucking contractor" I devised a simple energy saving add-on for their thermal chambers, my line manager said I should submit it as it would save them millions in electricity costs around the world. So I did, only to have it rejected by the 'local committee', 3 months later they group submitted it and got the 10% of national then global savings for the first two years, but then I was "only a fucking contractor"...