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back to article US foreign router ban criticized for being ‘industrial policy disguised as cybersecurity’

The United States’ ban on foreign-made SOHO routers won’t improve security, and only makes sense as “industrial policy disguised as cybersecurity,” according to Milton Mueller, Professor at the University of Georgia’s School of Public Policy and founder of its Internet Governance Project. Mueller notes that the Federal …

  1. Pascal Monett Silver badge
    Thumb Up

    "hiding behind the religious banner of national security"

    Well said.

    That being said, the FCC, and politicians in general, are not there for the benefit of The PeopleTM any more.

    They are there to convince you, with utmost earnestness and conviction, that they are indeed working for your benefit and selflessly tiring away to secure more funding for their next election campaign your security.

    And if, in the past, they had to travel to Epstein's island, it was purely for business purposes, Scout's honor.

    1. LogicGate Silver badge

      Re: "hiding behind the religious banner of national security"

      "And if, in the past, they had to travel to Epstein's island, it was purely for business purposes, Scout's honor."

      ..or it was for a wholesome family visit, including BBQ und bible study.

      1. Aladdin Sane Silver badge
        Coat

        Re: "hiding behind the religious banner of national security"

        bible study

        Missionary?

      2. Paul Crawford Silver badge

        Re: "hiding behind the religious banner of national security"

        including BBQ und bible study.

        Ah, more of a spit-roast perhaps?

    2. simonlb Silver badge

      Re: "hiding behind the religious banner of national security"

      Anyone with half a brain could see this ban was complete rubbish from the start, serves no real purpose from a security standpoint and doesn't benefit anyone at any point. However, I fear the professor might now face the real prospect of being punished somehow and his university having their funding pulled for his pointing out the lie in public.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: "hiding behind the religious banner of national security"

        >doesn't benefit anyone at any point

        Foreign manufacturers can be placed on an approved list and allowed to bypass the law.

        It's not clear what the approval process is but may involve payments to a country club in Florida

    3. retiredFool Silver badge

      Re: "hiding behind the religious banner of national security"

      I've not seen anyone suggest this, but I have to think there is more than one "epstein" out there. Shadowy figures providing services to the uber connected. "Those" people always have NDA's for everyone connected to them, so the maids/gardeners/PA's ... are terrified to say anything about anything. Cosby, Weinstein just to name two behaved in a way that I just couldn't believe never got reported. It just must be a very different world for the "specials" where they can do anything they want without fear. And Cosby/Weinstein were not even that wealthy. I'd never even heard of epstein before the scandal. And they guy owned a private island and apparently some compound in New Mexico that they are digging around in(literally) looking for corpses.

  2. Vader

    Personally the world is a bigger market than the USA. Pull all foreign routers from there let them die. May the corrupt trump and and Jared family can create a router company, which lies about all the data it gets.

    1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

      May the corrupt trump and and Jared family can create a router company, which lies about all the data it gets

      It'll be a cheap Chinese knockoff that's got firmware 'modified' by a minimum-wage South Asian dev working purely off barely-understood verbal specs. And one of the new functions is that, whenever Trump is mentioned [1] it has to inject "the great and glorious Leader" in front of it..

      [1] 'Lifts buttock, expresses opinion'. Sauerkraut and cabbage stew last night..

      1. MiguelC Silver badge

        Re: "cheap Chinese knockoff"

        But painted in real* gold!

        * as real as orange's skin colour

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      TrumpRouter: Gold plated antennas*. Looks the best in your home!

      *(WiFi ability to penetrate gold plating not guaranteed.)

  3. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

    Nobody believed for a second this is security...

    ...this time around, and not the Huawei time around "back on the day".

    Only the complete idiots were fooled. Which we have too many... Oh why is the whole Idiocrazy movie suddenly became a documentation instead of comedy (the first five minutes were always a documentary).

    1. doublelayer Silver badge

      Re: Nobody believed for a second this is security...

      Yes, at least in the Huawei case, they had a specific government and law they were targeting, and the hardware was in much more significant areas. It still wasn't convincing, but the surface argument was much closer to plausible. A blanket ban on all companies from all countries doesn't let you tell that surface story.

      1. martinusher Silver badge

        Re: Nobody believed for a second this is security...

        The problem with Huawei is that was literally years ahead of everyone else with 5G -- it was reckoned at the time of the ban at least two years. Compounding this was that Huawei sourced a majority of the patents specific to 5G and they had developed the modem chips. Without urgent government action they would have wiped the floor with the competition (us).

        Obviously nobody's going to say "we've been out competed by a Chinese company" because, as we all know, the Chinese are only capable of copying western innovation, they can't actually develop anything so they have to steal all our IP. So we make dark references to 'security', 'back doors' and so on, invoking the sort of imagery much loved by James Bond scriptwriters.

        We slowed them down a bit but all this has done is persuade them of the need to develop a bigger mop.

    2. VoiceOfTruth Silver badge

      Re: Nobody believed for a second this is security...

      Let's not forget the gullible idiot politicians in Europe who followed suit.

      An *honest* politician might have said: if we are interested in our national security we should rip and replace all Cisco equipment.

  4. Zakspade

    MAGAAFTROTW

    Make

    America

    Great

    Again

    And

    F***

    The

    Rest

    Of

    The

    World

    But it is too long to fit on one of the baseball caps that Donnie is promoting, so MAGA it will remain...

    1. Bebu sa Ware Silver badge
      Windows

      Re: MAGAAFTROTW

      FTROTW has been US policy since … well forever. Just in the past they usually benefitted from their fuckery but their current efforts towards global fornication would seem to be as much own goals as anything else.

      Unconscionable Selfserving Adventurism.

      Gaaftrot seems like a word - probably colloquial afrikaans for biting off your own balls ? You are supposed to hold the future in your hands not letting Trump and co. chow down on it.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: MAGAAFTROTW

        This time is different.

        The President of the United States is a lifelong malignant narcissist and self-serving conman now deeply in the grips of frontotemporal dementia.

        This war of choice doesn't even make sense from a coldly self-interested perspective...and a notoriously thin-skinned egotist is losing.

        His morning was spent posting on social media, threatening war crimes against a civilian population if he didn't get his way. Same as last week.

        The American appetite for self-serving adventurism has descended into absolute madness disguised as adventurism. The boomers whose brains have been pickled by Facebook and Fox News are cheering it. The world has yet to see the worst of history's most dangerous mad king.

    2. John F Jennings

      Re: MAGAAFTROTW

      Its unlikely that the US can actually build routers any more - at least secure SOHO ones - even if it wanted to. What you will get is cheap downgraded tat or super expensive 'exotics'- this is the hamerikan way.

      A quick google search shows that no Netgear routers are made in hamerika - they are made in Vietnam, Thailand, Indonesia, and Taiwan. By Foxcon and Delta (Chinese manufacturers)

      CISCO make theirs in China, Vietnam, Taiwan, and India (the russian plant never opened, and they closed the Mexican and Chech ones)

      Starlink (elon) makes in Texas - but then its only assembly - the components come from ST (Taiwan).

      YeZ are screwed.... Unless you go even more into the arms of the insane Muskyness.

    3. Irongut Silver badge

      Re: MAGAAFTROTW

      I don't think that is their true policy, it seems to be more like Fuck America Again, And The Rest of The World If We Have Time.

  5. Captain Hogwash

    Backdoors

    are also easier to put in routers if you mandate that they must be made in your own country. Just saying.

  6. Guy de Loimbard Silver badge
    Windows

    Security Theatre and posturing

    Yet more BS from that side of the pond's administration.

    Reminds me of some of the bone sound bites you hear from political parties this side of the pond to point score on the run up to what ever local or national elections are coming.

    I would like to think, that when this "idea" was started, it was with the best of intentions, but poorly executed, or I'm just really optimistic/naive :)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Security Theatre and posturing

      The main problem I have is that "best of intentions" is plausible from almost any other POTUS ... BUT Herr Trump does not know what "best of intentions" means !!!

      Her Trump only knows ... I made (will make) a Profit OR I got my own back against an enemy !!!

      P.S.

      Don't confuse the word 'enemy' with 'enemy of the USA' they are NOT the same and may be mutully exclusive in some circumstances.

      :)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Security Theatre and posturing

        > Her Trump only knows ... I made (will make) a Profit OR I got my own back against an enemy !!!

        That was before the dementia set in.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Security Theatre and posturing

      You're really optimistic. See also TikTok, etc.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Cisco??

    Cisco devices are manufactured in China, Mexico, Brazil, Taiwan, Malaysia and India.

    Will NIST and the NSA go to the White House to seek an exemption?

    .....so that "ALL AMERICAN" backdoors can continue to snoop?

    I think we should be told!

    1. Mishak Silver badge

      Come on...

      It's not like their devices ever get compromised, is it.

      Oh, hang on...

      1. ChrisC Silver badge

        Re: Come on...

        It's only a compromise if done by someone else's TLA to snaffle your secrets. When it's your own TLA's adding backdoors to snaffle someone elses then it's entirely acceptable and not at all a cause for any concern, dearie me no, just buy the product, we promise NEVER to use that capability against you, I mean you're one of us after all, whyever would we need to spy on you, we're besties, allies, comrades in arms, with an OH so special relationship...

  8. pirxhh

    Jones Act, anyone?

    This will have the same effect as the Jones Act, a deeply protectionist act limiting maritime transport between US ports to ships built by US yards. As the US basically has no competencies any more to build commercial ships, this means the existing hulls are so valuable that 40+ years-old ships are still in service - with safety rules in force at launch time still grandfathered in. The best-known case illustrating this was the SS El Faro, built 1975 and sank 2015 in hurricane Joaquin. Her safety was on a 40-year-old standard; abandonig ship in her open, hand-cranked lifeboats was never a survivable option under the circumstances.

    Given the fact that there are basically no US manufacturers for home routers (design, development, components and assembly, not just badge engineering), this will keep insecure routers afloat longer, not shorter.

    As for the Jones Act, where Alaskan, Hawaiians, and Puerto Rican customers pay the cost, and ultimately US seafarers lose their life, US consumes will pay the price with their wallets and data.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Jones Act, anyone?

      Jones Act is more about national security than trade protectionism.

      Maintaining seaman's skills and ship ownership among a country's citizenry keeps that domestic capacity as a hedge against chaos if the world slips into conflict, like it's doing now. Seamanship is one of the easiest things to outsource and leave a nation with zero domestic capacity.

      Outsourcing US-to-US marine transport to foreign crews and shipowners would be like hiring Huawei as the Pentagon's top tech vendor.

      Think of the Jones Act as insurance. This is a situation where paying for insurance is the responsible thing to do.

      The router issue isn't like the Jones Act. Trump's order is about protectionism and graft, not national security. *Where* the routers are made is much less important for cybersecurity than *what's* installed on them. I'm much more worried about another upstream attack like that perpetrated against xz than where the routers are actually assembled. The critical element is that the US maintain the capacity to build trustworthy router software. And that's basically the same as the Jones Act maintaining US seafarers and US ships.

    2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

      Re: Jones Act, anyone?

      This will have the same effect as the Jones Act, a deeply protectionist act limiting maritime transport between US ports to ships built by US yards. As the US basically has no competencies any more to build commercial ships, this means the existing hulls are so valuable that 40+ years-old ships are still in service - with safety rules in force at launch time still grandfathered in.

      And crewed by US nationals, further increasing costs. But in response to the Jones Act, shipping companies kinda routed around the problem by creating the Panamanian & Liberian shipping registeries, which are effectively US controlled, and naturally more 'tax efficient'. But Jones Act has some other curious quirks, eg-

      These provisions also require that at least three-fourths of the crew members be U.S. citizens or permanent residents. The steel of foreign repair work on the hull and superstructure of a U.S.-flagged vessel is limited to ten percent by weight. This restriction largely prevents Jones Act ship owners from refurbishing their ships at overseas shipyards.

      And the USS Gerald R. Fnord-

      The ship has left the operational theater in order to undergo a first stage of repairs and refueling operations at Crete Naval Base in Souda Bay, Greece. The ship later sailed to Split, Croatia at the local naval shipyards for a second and more extensive stage of reparations.

      Which is having it's toilets fixed, along with the reinstallation of 1,000 new (presumably American-made) matresses to replace the ones lost in a 'laundry fire'.. Which seems to have spread extensively and damaged a lot of it's berthing spaces. Which is something that isn't supposed to happen to a warship given fires at sea are kinda bad. But I digress..

      Given the fact that there are basically no US manufacturers for home routers (design, development, components and assembly, not just badge engineering), this will keep insecure routers afloat longer, not shorter.

      It'll be fine. Spac-X is building a gigafab that's going to use novel physics to make a massive Texas chip shop, because everything is bigger in Texas, including Musk's ego. But it also has Intel, AMD, Nvidia,, Qualcomm, Broadcom as all-American IT giants, along with Apple, if you're in the market for a curvaceous white router.. But very little of the production done in America, including the software development. So it'll be fine. Ish. I think Intel makes Ethernet & WiFi glue chips in Haifa, and those fab plants haven't started smoking, yet. If they do, then maybe tax incentives will mean they get rebuilt in the USA. Other costs will make product more expensive, but such is capitalism.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It's almost as if they passed yet another stupid law without knowing what they are talking about, because science doesn't exist. Shock, that's never happened before!

    1. wolfetone Silver badge

      They knew what they were doing.

      They have to find new and exciting ways to fund the forever war they've started in Iran.

      1. Not Yb Silver badge

        I'm not sure how "you can't sell foreign made routers in the US" adds any meaningful revenue to the US war chest.

        1. wolfetone Silver badge

          Remember in WW1 and WW2 they did those war bonds? Or you could put money in to something and own a quarter of a tank?

          Well, that. But with routers.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            own a quarter of a tank

            Dibs on the treads!

  10. DS999 Silver badge

    How is this ban even possible?

    Sure you can prevent Walmart from stocking them on their shelves, but will it stop third party sellers on Amazon based in other countries from selling them? Are they going to twist Amazon's arm to make that happen, and can Amazon really implement that even if they want to? If they stop Amazon, what about Alibaba and Aliexpress? Or vendors based in the EU? It isn't like customs is going to open every package and say "oh look that's a foreign router we're gonna have to confiscate that!"

    Its one thing to do it for something like a car, that requires registration with the state. Pretty easy for states to not allow a BYD or Geely to be registered even if you somehow got it through customs. But something small like a router ordered individually vs shipping a container full of them to a wholesaler. Yeah they can't possibly prevent that.

    1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

      Re: How is this ban even possible?

      Or vendors based in the EU? It isn't like customs is going to open every package and say "oh look that's a foreign router we're gonna have to confiscate that!"

      That bit is fairly easy. Stuff entering the US is supposed to be detailed on waybills and bills of lading. So in theory, customs knows the contents of every container destined for the US and can apply the correct tarriff of the day. Then in practice, open up random containers to detect if 'tractor parts' are actually boxes of illicit routers..

      1. seven of five Silver badge
        Joke

        Re: How is this ban even possible?

        > Then in practice, open up random containers to detect if 'tractor parts' are actually boxes of illicit routers..

        Given John Deeres policy towards spares, thoses boxes will certainly be checked. And you'd better hope there are only illegal routers in it!

      2. DS999 Silver badge

        Re: How is this ban even possible?

        I'm not talking about containers, I'm talking about a single package being sent to a US address from somewhere outside the US where the third party Amazon vendor or Aliexpress vendor has a warehouse.

        How does customs know which are "grandfathered" models that are allowed to be shipped vs newer model that in theory aren't? They can't simply block all wireless routers from being imported when everything that was on the market before a given date was OK. And they may not even know it contains a wireless router. The sender might give it some generic classification like "consumer electronics" or list it by vendor/model like "Dlink-ABC123".

        So again, unless customs is opening up all these individual packages shipped to my address or anyone else in the US, and comparing with some long list of approved vs banned models, it is a fool's errand thinking this sort of a ban is feasible.

        1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

          Re: How is this ban even possible?

          How does customs know which are "grandfathered" models that are allowed to be shipped vs newer model that in theory aren't? They can't simply block all wireless routers from being imported when everything that was on the market before a given date was OK.

          It's much the same process as with any import. Packages mailed are supposed to have a waybill & customs declaration declaring the contents. Then USPS/FedEx/Customs can inspect packages, apply tax stamps or seize items that are now illegal. So yup, implementation could be a bit of a mess, but lists are usually how customs have to work.. Which from watching a couple of shows about the challenges customs face is an uphill battle. One memorable one was someone trying to import pistons for an engine.. Which were fake and had a drugs compartment concealed in the piston.

      3. martinusher Silver badge

        Re: How is this ban even possible?

        It gives the Mexican cartels something profitable to smuggle.

        I daresay the home electronics suppliers just over the border in Canada will find business building up.

        It gives us a huge incentive to get rid of this government. You'll notice that politicians are always blathering on about 'getting the government off peoples' backs' but in reality the ones that trumpet 'freedom' the most tend to work overtime finding new and ingenious ways to place restrictions on people. Its one of the paradoxes of living here -- "Land of the Free(ish)".

  11. W.S.Gosset Silver badge

    LOL

    I got as far as the "professor" bleating absolute irrelevancies and said "Where on EARTH did they dig this guy up from, again?" , scrolled back up, and burst out laughing

    Uni of Georgia.

    The big Georgia unis are up to their eyeballs in the currently unfolding document & email extractions re the 2020 USA election machines hijack.

    Specifically, pre-election email chains discussing the discovered live external network connections to Serbia (& China IIRC). Including acknowledgements that the kit apparently couldn't do that. Elsewhere (with HP on the emails), that the nominally Taiwanese hardware & firmware was actually built & tested by China.

    CISA's up to its eyeballs in them, too.

    No wonder he's desperately throwing chaff to deflect.

  12. W.S.Gosset Silver badge
    Megaphone

    Canon

    The actual canonical facts are rather less melodramatic, and quite reasonable.

    Overview and details, including how to get exemptions: https://www.fcc.gov/faqs-recent-updates-fcc-covered-list-regarding-routers-produced-foreign-countries

    Also, a new list of kit of specific concern with known & currently active backdoors, and patches where available if already in-situ: https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/cyber-alerts/avrecon-malware-infected-routers-exploited-as-residential-proxies-by-socksescort.pdf/view

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Cisco Tricks From NIST And NSA Now In Other Hands!

    Link: https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/cisco-source-code-stolen-in-trivy-linked-dev-environment-breach/

    Yup....the snooping is now OUT THERE.......not just the NSA and the nice folk in Cheltenham!

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