The Register Home Page

back to article Microsoft previews tech to ease creation of keyboard-accessible websites

Microsoft has started a preview of technology that eases the task of developing websites with complex navigation elements that don’t need a pointing device to operate. Patrick Brosset, principal product manager for Microsoft Edge, says the world needs better tools for accessible websites because less than half use tabindex, an …

  1. David Newall

    Arrant nonsense

    keyboard-enabled websites are easy to write, and always have been. If they are bigger, only insignificantly so. Why am I unsurprised that MS are trying to inveigle their way into this non-issue? Embrace, extend, extinguish, no doubt.

    1. Yorick Hunt Silver badge

      Re: Arrant nonsense

      Remember when they tried to reinvent HTML standards with IE back in the day? And where the idiots who embraced them ended up?

    2. Joe W Silver badge

      Re: Arrant nonsense

      Yes. That. Just use bloody html

      https://justfuckingusehtml.com/

      'nuff said.

      1. Headley_Grange Silver badge

        Re: Arrant nonsense

        Hmmm - interesting site. Shame the "Open the Damn Dialog" button doesn't work without allowing the site's JS in NoScript.

        1. Yorick Hunt Silver badge
          Trollface

          Re: Arrant nonsense

          I think justfuckingusehtmlandjavascript.com was already taken ;-)

        2. takno

          Re: Arrant nonsense

          To be fair dialog invoker commands have been in webkit browsers for less than year, and only made it to Safari just before christmas (https://webstatus.dev/features/invoker-commands). It takes a while for sites to catch up.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Arrant nonsense

      None of you commenting here has built a site for an actual, paying client the last twenty years and it shows. The last time you could sell a plain HTML website with some CSS sprinkled on top was back when you could expect a new episode of Friends every week.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Arrant nonsense

        You're saying that like it's a good thing. From the would-be visitor's PoV it's a disaster. It means sites get picky about the browser visitors are using. To take a car analogy it's like building a supermarket what only admits customers to its car park if they're driving a particular make of car.

        But that doesn't matter to you, does it? You're not building websites for the potential customers, you're building them for marketing and the coloured pencil department. AKA being too clever by hald and not half clever enough. The Internet Exploder mentality has not gone away.

        1. Headley_Grange Silver badge

          Re: Arrant nonsense

          The dev's customer is whoever is paying the bill - and that's not the end user. If the customer want bells and whistles and a site that pisses off their users then that's what they get.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Arrant nonsense

            And there is a cadre of web developers who are only too happy to sell that kind of crap: they are enabling the worst excesses of the web for their own gain.

            We get angry at the the companies that own these web sites and keep making them worse. Don't forget that those developers are also companies and equally open to criticism as any polluters.

            Yes, individual Register readers work at making this junk and will try to play the "I am only doing my job, making what the client asks for" but don't get sucked in, they chose to go down that route and get their hands dirty.

          2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Arrant nonsense

            That's the trouble. A site is intended to be used. There's a name for achieving usability - a goal the customer ought to have thought about but didn't, or possibly assumed they didn't need to specify because they expected it to be a given - while meeting the customers other goals. That name is "professionalism".

            How many jobs specify "the product must piss off its users"?

            1. Headley_Grange Silver badge

              Re: Arrant nonsense

              Ethics are as much a luxury as a Rolex. If you're wealthy enough you can have both. If you need to work to feed, clothe and house yourself then your options are limited.

              1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

                Re: Arrant nonsense

                I repeat: how many jobs specify pissing off users as a requirement?

                1. Headley_Grange Silver badge

                  Re: Arrant nonsense

                  Why are you repeating it? Indeed, why are you asking me?

  2. FF22

    It's all for AI

    No human uses keyboard navigation, save for some impaired individuals (but there's a long-standing and "aria" standard to support them), because it's highly ineffective in many ways compared to using a mouse or touch. Also, you can't even use keyboard navigation on most devices today, because the majority of devices used to browse the web don't even have an actual keyboard (ie. because they're smartphones with touchscreens).

    In reality it's about making navigation easier for AI agents, who have a hard time separating and understanding navigation elements.Microsoft wants everyone to make it easier for MS's AI agents to steal and abuse their content and services.

    1. Mr Fix.

      Re: It's all for AI

      As a long time user of the browser plugin Vimium, I can say this is totally false.

    2. John Robson Silver badge

      Re: It's all for AI

      Keyboard navigation should be rapid and simple.

      It does two main things:

      - It means you don't need to move your hands from the home row, which is always faster than moving the whole arm to a mouse, trackpad, trackball or other pointing device

      - It enables assistive technologies - remember, "the disabled" are the only minority group you can join at any time

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: It's all for AI

        Mice are for WIMPs.

    3. that one in the corner Silver badge

      Re: It's all for AI

      > No human uses keyboard navigation

      Ye gods and little fishes, it is bad enough to come across someone who clearly just piddles their days away at the computer instead of getting stuck into a task and wishing for every efficiency gain. But to justify themselves by claiming that *nobody* ever works that way...

      This is clearly somebody for whom the phrase "hack mode" means nothing. Who has no idea even that ALT-TAB exists. Who never wants to copy that complicated declaration from the online docs into the editor, without breaking stride or losing focus. Who never sees a website with content that has value* and is worth quoting in your own piece, be that the amazing innovation that'll solve The Problem that has plagued Company Ltd for the last two years or just a diatribe on The Register.

      1. FF22

        Re: It's all for AI

        Yeah, that person has been developing operating system, graphical interfaces and power plant control software decades before you were even born.

        Then again, that's the very reason why he know what he is talking about, and why you don't.

    4. GSS

      Re: It's all for AI

      I do have to disagree. I often use keyboard navigation as a fully able user when a page is designed well enough for it. That said most pages with large navigation headers and menus are too cumbersome to use with a keyboard. See html cyoa games made using tiddlywiki or sugar cube for good examples of keyboard navigation. They often allow you to press a number on the keyboard to make a choice and reveal the relevant passage / section. Even tab is good enough if the game / page dev hasn't tried to overwrite it. And the menu handling saves or inventory is often after the main navigation choices in the tab index as it should be for such pages.

    5. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
      Alien

      Re: It's all for AI

      No human uses keyboard navigation, save for some impaired individuals

      Well, I'm either not a human or an impaired individual. At least, when it comes to keyboard operation of editors - for aeons, it was possible to do edit/copy paste in Notepad using just the keyboard - and then Microsoft went and broke it

      1. FF22

        Re: It's all for AI

        You've exactly zero reading comprehension. Which, ironically, could be counted as an impairment.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: It's all for AI

          "You've exactly zero reading comprehension"

          Somebody clearly has but it might not be who you thought.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    So we can make AI resistant sites ?

    Possibly the first time MS have been of use.

    If you don't want AI to scrape your site - make it mouse heavy.

  4. Mr Fix.

    I love browsing using only keyboard thanks to the help of the life-changing browser-plugin called Vimium. Unsure if this new idea will help or make things worse for me.

    Funny thing is that some of the worst sites for keyboard-only use are the web-enabled m365 apps. Sigh.

  5. Roland6 Silver badge

    April 1st already?

    "You can find focusgroup here."

    The hyperlink is to: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Reference/Global_attributes/tabindex

    Aside: Suspect actually meant to link to: Focusgroup (Explainer)

    Given the power of WAP, with respect to the ease with which a WAP site can be made accessible, especially to voiceweb clients, I would of thought focusgroup is something a decent web editor should be able to do, given its something tools like Word have effectively been doing (for outlining documents) for decades.

    1. captain veg Silver badge

      Re: April 1st already?

      > I would of thought

      I trust that was a typo? Please re-submit.

      -A.

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon