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back to article Founder ditches AWS for Euro stack, finds sovereignty isn't plug-and-play

Building a startup entirely on European infrastructure sounds like a nice sovereignty flex right up until you actually try it and realize the real price gets paid in time, tinkering, and slowly unlearning a decade of GitHub muscle memory. That's the takeaway from a blog post published on Friday in which one founder lays out …

  1. VoiceOfTruth Silver badge

    We need to change the vocabulary

    Instead of referring to AWS and the like as 'US cloud giants', we need to refer to them as 'US Trojan horses'.

    Hammer home that the USA has access to Europe's confidential and secret information. Not just on people, but all the trade information that the USA exploits. Why would Europe put its trade in the hands of a regime led by an Orange convicted felon sex abuser, which is currently inflicting trade harm with tariffs? See the USA regime as the ogre it is.

    With a proper impetus that ANY access to Europe's data is a security threat we might get somewhere.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: We need to change the vocabulary

      It would be nice if the downvoters explained the reason for their downvote.

      Do they object to the factual description of Trump?

      Do they think that the USA doesn't have access to the above mentioned information?

      Do they think it doesn't matter that they do?

      I guess we'll never know - mind you, the lack of the ability to give a coherent response probably means they are part of the cult of the orange.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: We need to change the vocabulary

        Or they just down vote every post promoting division, disinformation and Russian talking points from the forum's most active Vatnik troll.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: We need to change the vocabulary

          Said vatnik is completely correct in this case though.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    VPS

    Why not a single VPS server which handles everything? You can install a web server, email server, application server and database server on the same box. It just depends on how many users you need to handle. And you can dial up the memory and CPU power accordingly. There's no real need for all these different external providers. You just need to make sure your VPS provider isn't American-owned.

    Exfiltrate data to an offline backup location once a month or so just to be on the safe side since the VPS provider backups the entire server filesystem on a daily basis.

    1. Psy-Q

      Re: VPS

      Because that's neither scalable nor resilient. For any reasonably large service you will have to load balance at some point, you'll have to reach decisions about databases (where to put writes, can you use replicas for reading etc.), add some caching (they mention a CDN) and so on.

      A single server can't withstand even the simplest of error conditions such as "a node is rebooting". That's probably also why they have Kubernetes in there, if your application is sufficiently stateless you won't even notice node reboots or outages that way.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: VPS

        But that, single server, was effectively the vision of cloud and containerisation…

        1. K

          Re: VPS

          What? Nope.. There was never a "single server"

          The "vision of cloud" was to have access to resources, etc without worrying about the underlying physical infrastructure (servers, storage, switches, interlinks between data centres etc). But it was little different than on-premise - even with cloud, you had to spin up multiple VMs, splitting across multiple availability zones, and multiple regions, and throwing a load balancer in front of them.

          1. Roland6 Silver badge

            Re: VPS

            > The "vision of cloud" was to have access to resources, etc without worrying about the underlying physical infrastructure

            Precisely, a single server, where server didn’t mean a single physical box in the corner. AWS Elastic could be described as an attempt to invisibly handle dynamic loading of a single server.

            However, as you note, what we mostly have is on-prem physical configurations in the cloud. This isn’t to say that the traditional n-tier application architecture is wrong, as it still applies with cloud, as it is a way to structure the systems solution.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: VPS

        I doubt anyone reading this will need to scale-out their web application to multiple servers due to the number of users. A single beefy server can handle tens of thousands of concurrent users if caching is properly used. That means your service could handle millions of non-concurrent users since only a fraction is online at any specific time.

        Like I said it depends on the number of users you expect and you have the ability to dial up the VPS CPU and memory if need be. That should be enough for most use cases.

        1. lordminty Bronze badge

          Re: VPS

          What?

          "I doubt anyone reading this will need to scale-out their web application to multiple servers due to the number of users."

          Are you serious?

          Have you ever worked in a large business, say one in the FTSE100? One with tens, hundreds or even millions of customers/users?

          At the very least you'd need two servers, just to have the most basic resilience. But even then your web application has everything in one or two servers. Again, very little resilience.

          For a large scale deployment you'd be looking to use at least 3-tiers, web/app/db, all on separate servers, and that's before you consider load balancing or firewalls.

          Running everything in one tier exposed to the Internet is just asking for trouble. Just ask TalkTalk.

          1. a.b

            Re: VPS

            I agree with you. A large deployment rarely has less than 10 machines, and that's only for production. Add staging, testing, backup. So if you work in a large organisation, or in an organisation that services large organisations, then this is the standard.

            And from the comments it seems a lot of commenters on the reg are familiar with these setups, so "I doubt anyone reading this", is probably a bit off the mark.

            But not every organisation has the same priority regarding uptime. In the UK only 0.2% of businesses have more than 250 employees, and in the UK it's less than 0.1%.

            My experience with these smaller businesses is that they are unable or unwilling to pay the monthly costs of more than one VPS, and accept that it might take up to a day to restore it from 4-hourly backup.

            And for most businesses, and most small SaaS applications that serves a thousand small businesses, one VPS has plenty of grunt.

            Add a second with low cpu and memory config that doubles as backup/standby, it's so fast to crank up the settings in the VPS console when needed. Yes, switch over isn't instantaneous, but it does not need to be longer than a coffee break.

            Large deployments are costly and complex. They require more frequent and larger maintenance windows. A single VPS is easy, and for my part I've never actually seen one go down in 20 years. If there were problems it was always bigger issues with the hoster/hyperscaler where no amount of own machines have helped.

            If one or two VPS can do the job, it's worth considering.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: VPS

            My experience with load balancing is that it usually doesn't add any resilience because both servers share, for example, a common database or other dependencies. In fact, I've seen cases where the load balancer itself became the point of failure.

            A single server is fine for most SMEs. I've had mine running for years and it reboots automatically during off-hours when updates are installed.

            1. richardnpaul

              Re: VPS

              To this I would counter tell me you have never encountered a thundering herd without telling me you have never encountered a thundering herd.

          3. rg287 Silver badge

            Re: VPS

            "I doubt anyone reading this will need to scale-out their web application to multiple servers due to the number of users."

            Are you serious?

            Have you ever worked in a large business, say one in the FTSE100? One with tens, hundreds or even millions of customers/users?

            They probably haven't, and neither will most people. Because most businesses are not FTSE100s, and most people work for companies with fewer than 20 employees.

            So there are two points here:

            1. Who cares about tens of thousands of users? FTSE100s, sure. But not most people.

            2. Modern silicon/servers are wildly, hilariously powerful and storage dense per U, when considering basic line-of-business applications like web hosting, mailboxes and file storage. You can host >20k mailboxes on a 1U server. Even for moderately Medium sized enterprises, you're looking at a couple of mail servers (for redundancy), couple of webservers, couple of fileservers. The whole thing is less than a quarter rack. But then you want another half rack in another location for failover. These are probably going to be Proxmox clusters running VMs rather than bare metal, but even with the inefficiency of bare metal (in so much as some U will always be significantly underutilised), it's not a lot of boxes, nor a particularly deep architecture. Bakc in the day, I started out at a company that had everything on a single server. They got a bigger one, then a bigger one. I thought "this'll be the last general purpose box we get. We'll have to branch out to DB/web/media servers next time". But Moore's law and storage density kept up. They split out stuff for redundancy and architectural purposes eventually, but the whole lot could still have run on a single box in terms of CPU/RAM/storage capacity.

            I've been through a company that had a single server hosting their entire production environment, with a second (in a different DC) for failover, on a hot-cold basis. Their (third party) CDN ran health checks and transparently failed across if Prod went away. That was it. Then there were a couple of VMWare boxes for build nodes and some other small stuff that didn't justify bare metal. You'll say "can't have been very significant", and you'd be right - they were (are) a small firm <20 people with like, 10 customers that you won't have heard of - a mid-west concern in Illinois called John Deere, some insecty outfit called Caterpillar. A niche Korean bunch called Komatsu.

            All live traffic was being served (at the time) off one 16-core Windows box, running IIS, SQL Server and a couple of other bits. Kind of terrifying, but also a testament that you can do a whole lot of very real, actually useful processing with modest resources.

            In all seriousness, most businesses could host their entire infrastructure on a single 1U cPanel server - web, mail, etc and have empty drive slots and capacity to spare. Yes, you would like some redundancy, but in terms of the actual resource required to run the applications? That's it.

            We get carried away in IT with racks of gear and five-9s. Especially when it's not our money. For a small business, their email falling over for an hour or for a reboot is of no concern. Certainly less important than making sure they have immutable, ransomware-proof backups. They receive less than 50MB of mail in 24hours and delete most of it immediately. That's the reality of the real world - in so much as most of the real world is shops and car garages and hairdressers getting on with their business, not software houses with a big old CI/CD build infrastructure, multi-cloud load balancing or any of that stuff.

        2. Anonymous Crowbar
          Coat

          Re: VPS

          "I doubt anyone reading this will need to scale-out their web application to multiple servers due to the number of users"

          We have a couple of thousand servers across multiple DCs for openstack, generate about 5PB data a month and also have an AWS estate of about 3k instances [ec2, eks, rds] around the world, so that comment was a little disingenuous.

          :P

    2. paluster

      Re: VPS

      You're assuming that he has the skills to run all those servers rather than just being able to use instances run by someone else. To use an IT example, people can use webmail without having a clue how to manage a mail server. To use a non IT example, how many drivers actually know how to maintain a car engine (let alone have the tools to do so).

      1. djnapkin

        Re: VPS

        > You're assuming that he has the skills to run all those servers

        So he's capable of looking after Hetzner, Scaleway, Bunny.net, Nebius, Hanko, analytics, secrets management, CRM, error tracking, Kubernetes, Rancher ,

        But he's not capable of running a VPS?

        Really?

    3. RichardNeill

      Re: VPS

      You're completely right - especially now that you can get servers with 4 TB of RAM and 128 cores.

      You win massively on simplicity - and the OS can do much better things with performance and resource-management than a cluster can.

      Why not?

      1. If you are genuinely going to need the enormous scale requiring multiple servers. That's only relevant for global businesses. A large warehouse can run on one server.

      2. If you are paranoid about reliability/safety-critical, and have the money and time to do all the complex high-availability stuff. But, complexity has its own costs in having more things to break, and being harder to fix when a component does fail. You need a *lot* of scale to make your overall reliability better.

      3. AI. IF you need it (most applications don't); you need expensive GPUs.

  3. Tron Silver badge

    'Europe' is not a sovereign entity.

    Neither is the EU.

    When push comes to shove and the nationalists start to win more elections, EU member states will increasingly fall out.

    Still, avoiding SaaS, AI and the cloud is a sensible infosec policy regardless of geopolitics, Trumpistan and the like.

    1. Noodle

      Re: 'Europe' is not a sovereign entity.

      While that is technically true I think the point here is that all EU nations are subject to the same EU laws e.g. data protection, and not the laws of an increasingly economically and politically hostile nation like the USA.

  4. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    Good for him but if he'd tried to do this before AI, LLMs etc. would he have found it impossible to build such a site? If not why is this waste of silicon and energy being rolled into it?

  5. Alistair Kelman

    Alternative to GitHub

    How about Codeberg ?

    Codeberg covers most core GitHub functionality (repos, issues, wikis, CI, Pages) but has a smaller ecosystem, stricter FOSS focus, and resource limits, with a stronger privacy/ethical stance.

    codeberg.org

    1. patl

      Re: Alternative to GitHub

      It says why on their front page "Codeberg is a non-profit, community-led effort that provides services to free and open-source projects" I rather doubt hank.parts plans on being open source

      1. JLV Silver badge

        Re: Alternative to GitHub

        Agree. Are we talking about just git hosting for fun and no-profit?

        Or about finding a non-US ecosystem that can host governments and/or a CannesFlix ( NetFlix famously uses/used AWS)?

        i.e. the usual geekery or actual business? Europe is not lacking - and thats a GOOD THING - in FOSS street cred.

      2. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: Alternative to GitHub

        If you follow the links they do go to a webpage that lists a number of other repositories, based on the same open source stack but targeting different user communities.

    2. Psy-Q

      Re: Alternative to GitHub

      They mention Gitea which they're probably hosting themselves. They could do the same with Forgejo, which is what Codeberg uses.

      1. _wojtek

        Re: Alternative to GitHub

        and forgejo is a fork of gitea when there was a weird issue with trying to overtake the project so the community driven fork was made...

      2. a.b

        Re: Alternative to GitHub

        Forgejo is amazing. I moved 80gb of repositories from bitbucket to a small self-hosted forgejo vps a year ago and it's been 100% reliable and so fast.

    3. bbpuzlcloud
      Thumb Up

      Re: Alternative to GitHub

      If you're looking for a CI alternative to GitHub Actions or GitLab CI Runners, give runmyjob.io a go. It's based in Europe.

  6. nonsequitur

    Migrating cloud apps is more than location

    The article misses a really important point. Moving hosts is only a part of the challenge. Most cloud native apps are integrated with AWS/Azure/gCloud at the API level, not just where the processes run. This is a vastly more complex migration challenge and simply popping up a k8s pod with minikube on a Hetzner host in Finland!

    1. Herring`

      Re: Migrating cloud apps is more than location

      Well, yes. And you just have to look at what the tech giants do to people once they have them locked-in. Maybe I am into wishful thinking as it's past beer o'clock here but it is surely not beyond the wit of man to create standard APIs for standard services. Then providers can compete on uptime/service/price/which services are offered.

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: Migrating cloud apps is more than location

        >” it is surely not beyond the wit of man to create standard APIs for standard services.”

        Suggest lobbying the Open Group…

    2. ecofeco Silver badge

      Re: Migrating cloud apps is more than location

      Vendor lock-in always stupid.

      Of course it's now complicated. They were also most likely warned by the IT greybeards. They can cry me a river.

  7. Nate Amsden Silver badge

    not self hosting

    "Compute ended up running on Hetzner, with Scaleway filling in gaps like email and container registries. Bunny.net handled CDN and edge duties, Nebius provided GPU capacity for AI inference, and German identity outfit Hanko took care of authentication. "

    I don't see any self hosting there. That is using SaaS and IaaS.

    Self hosting is you have servers/storage/network in a data center and you run it end to end(with some exceptions perhaps like CDN).

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Digital sovereignty "isn't easy."

    But few worthwhile things are.

    1. Pickle Rick

      Data sovereignty is very easy. Step 1: don't give your data away. Step 2: run away from those that insist that "better cos cheaper".

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Perhaps you could post just a little more practical detail.

  9. _wojtek

    exaggerated title...

    It's not about "plug and play". most of the services just worked. Issues were mostly about habits (living in GitHub ecosystem and shell).

    Two interesting caveats - relying if free/cheap offering from usanian companies (on the one hand - feels like dumping, on the other - possibly abusing the sources hosted there?)

    The other one - how we ended up being convinced that "sign in with your beloved usanian provider" ia the best thing ever... of course no other alternatives, Bo OpenID... and if the worst happens (google/apple randomly deciding into block your account) - tough much, you are locked out everything...

    1. JLV Silver badge

      Re: exaggerated title...

      I suspect a massive difference is how quickly you can find guidance. Say you want to replace Amazon’s RDS Aurora (AWS’s sponge off Postgres, tho they do contribute to postgres) managed RDMS.

      You find Penumbra (I made that up!), an alleged drop in replacement.

      How do I do setup X? where task X is not strictly Postgres (i.e. well-known), but a somewhat complicated SaaS-RDBMS task you still have to configure.

      RDS Aurora: Likely very easy to find docs, gists, blogs, stackoverflows, reddits. Possibly even - gasp - correct LLM guidance.

      Now what about non-US Penumbra?

      I experienced that with BB10. After having had both an iOS and Android, I found BB10 quite elegant. But you had to figure out every single issue more or less on your own. There was zero “tribal knowledge”. It wasnt that it was lacking itself, it just was difficult to find your way around.

      It gets even worse if you also bring a replacement for a typical Aurora integration to another widespread service (say a backup provider).

      So I would not discount what they are saying here.

      1. _wojtek

        Re: exaggerated title...

        This is all true. I meant title on the reg which somewhat sounds like it's more difficult that it was.

        Yes, there are certain obstacles but it's a vicious circle of "everyone uses X so everyone asks about X and answer about X" making X having the most resources.

        However, even if we talk about RDS Aurora the setup is not _that_ different, you select which engine you want (postgres, myslq, etc) and then the machines and that's it… The problem is if someone existed _only_ in certain infrastructure/UI…

        On the other hand, even if cloud operators want lock-in, certain features like block storag (S3) became virtually an industry standard, along with it's API, and there are independent implementations like rustfs (or mionio, which recently went ai-fication…)

        What's good about it is that if more and more people decide to use those solutions they will gain popularity and with that shared knowledge will improve and the operators will grow. IMHO a win-win overall (not only from european perspective but also from the plurality of the market)

        1. JLV Silver badge

          Re: exaggerated title...

          Just to be clear - I picked Aurora for it being easily name recognizable, not for its complexity. Simple tasks are not the issue here, complicated, advanced ones are.

          What I see as success factors are:

          - don’t go hog wild on multiplying alternatives. Too many dilutes the knowledge pool and drives back to the better known: AWS, Azure.

          - be sensitive to knowledge pools. Good docs, for sure. But then spend $ on blogs YouTubes podcasts that _explain_ not just market. Digital Ocean has brilliant mini blogs about configurations, for example.

          - Keep it simple at first. And mimic known Azure and AWS setups (or simplify them). Or follow/define standards. Advanced features are great but if they require complex configuration that isn’t commonly known about : people will nod out faster than attending a Baptist revival choir on a hangover.

          - be careful around X-Y integrations. In the existing US vendor world, the most common combinations draw people because they are most known about. A dominant X will have its customary, known, Y pairings. In a world where X’ and Y’ alternatives are not yet fully established, each X’ needs to make sure people know their way for integrations (that’s probably why Digital Ocean writes up so much quality guidance). Work on interop with your peers.

          > it's a vicious circle of "everyone uses X…”

          That is PRECISELY my point. To me, apps aside, that is very much what doomed BB10 despite having a solid offering. You don’t have to despair that it cant be overcome. But you do have to allow, watch for and compensate.

          p.s. I am a happy DO user, no other links.

          1. _wojtek

            Re: exaggerated title...

            Hmm… in general I agree with you @JLV but this one rubs me the wrong way:

            "- don’t go hog wild on multiplying alternatives. Too many dilutes the knowledge pool and drives back to the better known: AWS, Azure."

            if we were to apply it then we just promote monopolies/oligopolies and say that any sort of competition on challengers are a bad thing…

            Also: I quite often end up on DO documentation pages (not using their services, mind you) and they are brilliant!

  10. ecofeco Silver badge
    Facepalm

    What's the old saying?

    The best time to change was yesterday. The second best time is today.

    Procrastination has a high price. And the longer you wait, the higher the price.

  11. An_Old_Dog Silver badge
    Angel

    "Sign in with Your ${BIG_TECH_ACCOUNT}"

    Social logins also keep bouncing through US systems because that's what people expect.

    I'd consider it a Good Thing™ if I could sign in not using my (non-existant) Google account, X account, Microsoft account, Samsung account, Apple account, etc.

    If I have to use such an account to use a service, then I don't use that service.

    (My dollars wing-flapping away from yet another BigTech-account-required service.) ----->

    1. djnapkin

      Re: "Sign in with Your ${BIG_TECH_ACCOUNT}"

      Have you encountered any sites that only provide 3rd party logins via social and Google etc accounts, and do not have the option to create a standard email & password account ?

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: "Sign in with Your ${BIG_TECH_ACCOUNT}"

        Standard email and password? Why email? Why not a unique user ID that isn't an email address? You could always set up a unique email address for the job but many won't, they'll just use their usual, everyday address so that's half the UID/password protection gone.

        1. doublelayer Silver badge

          Re: "Sign in with Your ${BIG_TECH_ACCOUNT}"

          Because:

          1. Most systems want to be able to communicate with the user either because that's what the service does or in case they need to send warnings, updates, etc. If no email address is provided, that doesn't work.

          2. People don't like getting locked out, and if you have no way of communicating with them, you can't send them any recovery method.

          3. Usernames are not supposed to increase security. They are supposed to identify the user in your database, with the rest of authentication used to establish that the person requesting that access is supposed to have that access. If your password is insufficiently secure, make it longer or add MFA. A user-set username will usually not be any better, and a random one will just confuse people without giving them any security whatsoever.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: "Sign in with Your ${BIG_TECH_ACCOUNT}"

            An email address is an email address. A user ID is a user ID. Keep both. Keep them separate.

            Is that really so hard to understand? Maybe it is. Maybe, as in the case of so many other things we see these days, people get so deep into the rut of the way things are done that they can't see over the edge and don't realise there are options outside it.

            1. doublelayer Silver badge

              Re: "Sign in with Your ${BIG_TECH_ACCOUNT}"

              You can do that if you like. If a user ID has no other purpose, then removing it has no downside, which is when they use email address instead.

          2. werdsmith Silver badge

            Re: "Sign in with Your ${BIG_TECH_ACCOUNT}"

            In fact a security technique is not to confirm or deny a username exists when a login is attempted.

            Bad = "there is no account associated with that username", because not seeing that repsonse confirms an account exists for the username.

            Good = "login failed".

            When using the change password process: "if there is an account associated with that username, a change password link has been sent to the associated email..." is much better that the bad message above. Still see it though.

            So a user name does form part of the security, once a hacker knows they have a valid account username then they are one step forward.

            1. doublelayer Silver badge

              Re: "Sign in with Your ${BIG_TECH_ACCOUNT}"

              Correct, but irrelevant. You can still use both of those messages whether the email address is the username or not. In systems that insist on having both, there's usually a need to have a "forgot your username" option as well which also relies on the user knowing their email address and sends their username in plain text. What good has that done?

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Alternative headline for this article ?

    "Chickens return to domicile to settle",.

    Not an excuse for not doing it. But certainly a reminder as to why it wasn't done before.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Alternative headline for this article ?

      "it wasn't done before"

      Maybe it's just my long retired memory playing tricks but I'm sure I remember people doing e-commerce before AWS.

  13. werdsmith Silver badge

    If people want it then the capability will grow to fulfil that want. Whilst customers always take the easy route, no alternatives paths will be created.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Puzzled About Email (And Mobile Text Messages)

    Email is store and forward.....yes?

    So how can email EVER be run within "digital sovereignty"? (Ask Andrew!)

    Ditto mobile text messaging?

    Ditto Mastodon traffic?

    ......even if you have your own air gapped data center?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Puzzled About Email (And Mobile Text Messages)

      Email stored on a European server is subject to European privacy law.

      Europeans who keep their email on a US server are subject to US privacy law.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Puzzled About Email (And Mobile Text Messages)

        @AC

        Did you notice "store and forward"? Email copies can be ANYWHERE! ANY SERVER!

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Puzzled About Email (And Mobile Text Messages)

          I've just checked the routing of a few emails. They may bounce around the senders' systems and my MSP's systems but they're all a straight hop from outbound at the sender to inbound at MSP. I think the days of multiple store and forward via random servers between sender and receiver are in the past. The MSP is firmly under UK GDPR. The US jurisdiction only applies to those using US companies to send the email.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Puzzled About Email (And Mobile Text Messages)

          Um, no they can't. If they store on a US machine, they can't claim to offer European sovereignty. - Do you think email gets randomly thrown around the internet?

          It's just like saying "they claim to host the webservers in Europe, but the backend could be in America" - well if that's the case, they can't offer European sovereignty.

          It's quite simple

        3. doublelayer Silver badge

          Re: Puzzled About Email (And Mobile Text Messages)

          They are on the sender's server, then they are on the receiver's server. Someone attacking either server, legally or criminally, could get copies. What's the surprise here? Unless you're assuming that the emails will randomly decide to spend some time on a different server from either, which will not happen unless one of those two specifically sets that up which pretty much nobody has any reason to do, so they don't.

          If that's not enough security for you, encrypt the messages. If that's still not enough security for you, after all the sender and receiver addresses could still be captured, then you need something that will be worse at message delivery but encrypts more data.

      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Puzzled About Email (And Mobile Text Messages)

        "US privacy law"

        Sorry for misunderstanding but could you please explain that concept.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Puzzled About Email (And Mobile Text Messages)

          IIRC that is the law that says clerks in videotape stores may not disclose which tapes their customers are buying.

          It hasn't been updated recently.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Self-hosting

    Going down the personal selfhosting route myself and weaning myself off all the crap spyware apps. Luckily I had at least only used apps that can export csv etc. My old Synology now runs vehicle management, budgeting, medical, books and mags, genealogy, jellyfin and stack, notes, calendar etc. All I need is a browser and I can connect from anywhere, happy days. I’ll still need a cheap crappy phone for bank apps as not a single bank in my country allows login without an app which is ridiculous, but that’s it - I’ll prob go grapheneos for that. Back in the day I used to use xposed and xprivacy which were great. Anyway, I’m rambling on as a doddery old codger.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Self-hosting

      No web login for banking?

      WTF. Definitely never moving there. Already really worried about this digital ID crap that would force everyone to have an app-enabled smartphone.

  16. Pickle Rick
    FAIL

    "avoid putting everything in the hands of a few US cloud giants,"

    What a way to mess up the understanding of data sovereignty. Politics much?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "avoid putting everything in the hands of a few US cloud giants,"

      It must be comfortable under your rock...

  17. Taliesinawen Bronze badge
    1. djnapkin

      Re: Containers, cloud, blockchain, AI – it's all the same old BS

      Agree. Unnecessary crap that most developers only want to use so that they can put it on their resumes for the next job.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    If they'd been less lazy to start with, they wouldn't be in this situation. Zero sympathy.

  19. david1024

    That's the new cloud lock-in

    That's the value proposition they make to you. You get to make a lot of staff redundant, save that money while they take good care of you with the plans that the folks you sent home made for you. Now it is a few years later and you don't have those folks at the table with you and can't find any help besides the tech vampire that's bleeding you and selling you who knows how much more than you are able to use?

    But you did save all that money a few years ago, right? Maybe that AI vibe thing can get you out of this mess, just up the subscription for that... Just like a drug addiction...

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: That's the new cloud lock-in

      "you don't have those folks at the table with you and can't find any help besides the tech vampire"

      It's always possible to recruit new help but corporate top manglers have a deep antipathy to hiring in general and people who know more than they do in particular.

  20. Roger.bone

    Yes it's difficult to separate from US tech dominance but every company should be looking at making changes now. US government overreach and unpredictability means it's a very serious part of business continuity and operational integrity.

  21. SirBaxter

    First, no one that i know of with any kid of minimum mid-level IT knowledge knows that there is no plug-n-play sovereignty solutions.

    its close to it but no European BigSoft to use with Desk-Writer and so on..

    BUT we have here in Sweden been for a year now been testing an all out

    Linux based environment. still American tho but the control is there that you dont have with Microsoft.

    So, RHEL with IdM instead of MS AD

    Fedora Silverblue instead of Win11

    Ansible

    NextCloud

    Collabora Online / Office running on on-prem servers

    OpenShift to run Windows Apps in Fedroa

    This works really good, we had 30 people in a test group for 6 months and we are now going to roll out this replacement to the entier company during 2026 to kick out Microsoft to begin with.

    its about 2400 servers that has to VM migraded, several of the servers for App's will continue have Win server for another 12 months but they will be replaced in time.

    But the entire user, role group and rights system is replaced from Domain / AD.

    So we dont need O365, sorry M365 anymore, no more Azure, no More Windows Server, MSSQL will only be used on RHEL until it can be replaced by the App devs

    so ofc its not plug and play but we are doing it for 5000 users here in Sweden

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Congratulations & welcome.

      "no European BigSoft" is an advantage in its own right for two reasons.

      First, a big service provider's outage is a big outage. Not having a dominating service provider limits the blast radius. Second, a dominant service provider doesn't have to care about customers or customer service. Being one of many will keep your service provider alert to your needs.

  22. glennsills@gmail.com Bronze badge

    Early Adopters

    Hopefully these early adopters will make it easier for those that follow.

  23. klaas

    Ditching a US is totally doable

    This feels like a more negative reading than the original post by the founder of hank.parts.

    He wasn’t arguing it’s unworkable, just that it requires more deliberate choices. And that those choices also have clear upsides.

    I’ve built my startup on a fully Europe-only stack myself (I run Bugsink; mentioned int the original though not here at the Register), and it’s very doable.

    Hetzner etc are boring in exactly the right ways and you don’t need hyperscaler machinery to run startups at any scale.

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