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back to article Poland bans camera-packing cars made in China from military bases

Poland’s Ministry of Defence has banned Chinese cars – and any others include tech to record position, images, or sound – from entering protected military facilities. A Tuesday announcement from the country’s Ministry of Defence says the decision came after risk analysis of the potential for the many gadgets built into modern …

  1. Neil Barnes Silver badge

    If some genius hadn't decided that all cars had to be connected

    Then it would be much simpler to identify those which were.

    There may be use cases where internet connection is useful to the driver, but there are none I can sensibly come up with where it is essential - easily proven by observation: my thirty year old Fiat is neither more nor less capable than my seven year old Renault (deliberately poverty spec to avoid all the touch screen insanity but still with too much unnecessary tech for my taste: who ever thought replacing a handbrake cable with an electric motor requiring special software to be able to change the pads was a good idea?). And there is no obvious way in which continuous online connectivity is a benefit to me as the driver.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: If some genius hadn't decided that all cars had to be connected

      While you and I agree that these people need their heads read, some people like connectivity. It might be traffic alerts, accident monitoring, tracking a loved one (one hopes with their permission), music streaming or a work (fleet) vehicle with telematics. Maybe something else neither of us has thought of yet. There can be legitimate uses but also, obviously, significant pitfalls and vulnerabilities.

      1. IGotOut Silver badge

        Re: If some genius hadn't decided that all cars had to be connected

        . It might be traffic alerts, accident monitoring, tracking a loved one (one hopes with their permission), music streaming....

        All of which can be done with my 5 year android phone connected to my 10 year old Hyundai.

        "or a work (fleet) vehicle with telematics"

        Because that hasn't been around for almost 2 decades now.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: If some genius hadn't decided that all cars had to be connected

          The point of the examples, it seems to me, was to point out features that already exist and are widely used.

    2. munnoch Silver badge

      Re: If some genius hadn't decided that all cars had to be connected

      "replacing a handbrake cable with an electric motor requiring special software to be able to change the pads"

      Mine supposedly has a procedure to put the handbrake into service mode. Press this button 25 times, stand on one leg, turn around, press it another 50 times. It didn't work. I resorted to connecting a 12V charger directly to the motor by sticking a couple of wires into the connector. At least they had the remaining sense to make the motor unit dumb rather than embedding a canbus thingy inside it.

      1. Neil Barnes Silver badge

        Re: If some genius hadn't decided that all cars had to be connected

        That process only works on Thursdays when jupiter is in retrograde.

        A side effect of the automation is that my car will drive the brakes on when the car is off but it detects movement. Probably a good idea but the only time I've seen it do it is when it's on the train in the channel tunnel... When it insists. I stop the already stopped car...

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: If some genius hadn't decided that all cars had to be connected

          >When it insists. I stop the already stopped car...

          But if the train crashed you'd be glad the car didn't roll forward and dent a bumper !

          1. munnoch Silver badge

            Re: If some genius hadn't decided that all cars had to be connected

            I shipped a 1980's vintage car from Japan in a container. It wasn't properly restrained and the rear bumper beat itself to death in transit. I suppose it fulfilled its purpose but a replacement was very difficult to source.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: If some genius hadn't decided that all cars had to be connected

      Has NOTHING to do with connectivity. It's simply the capability to take lots of pictures of sensitive stuff.

      I have to remove my dash cam when I come to work at Cape Canaveral, and this is true at lots of military bases. I'm not allowed to take pictures of anything on base at all, anywhere, ever. There's too much stuff that's either secret, sensitive, or proprietary, and of course you don't KNOW what's secret, so you can't say "oh I won't take a picture of that"

      Those who do, who take pictures for press, historical, or whatever reason, have taken a special course and carry a license.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Similar Conclusion

    I've slowly been coming to a similar conclusion: that buying a China-built electric car - or at least one where the electronics and software is supplied and maintained by a Chinese company - represents a very high risk. That's not related to going onto particular establishments or into sensitive areas in my case but that, after a war breaks out, the first thing I expect China to do is to cripple our transport systems, utilities, communications and any public infrastructure they can get to. That would include private motor vehicles being remotely disabled (or a sleeper process disabling it at a set time, after being 'armed').

    It's tempting to suggest we should insist that, in order for critical China-built systems (including vehicles) to be sold in our domestic markets, the company must supply all source code. But, of course, there are a myriad number of ways that a remote-disable capability could be hidden outside visible source code.

    Perhaps the government (of whatever Western nation you're in) should impose a 'risk premium' - in the form of an import duty - on China-built systems (including vehicles) to account for the probability and consequence of eventual espionage and/or disruption. But that'll never fly. The vast majority like their cheap goods, never properly evaluate risk and love to blame the messenger. And then there'd be the diplomatic fallout and economic retaliation from China.

    Still, either you manage the risk or you leave yourself (i.e. much of the country) vulnerable.

    Oh, and I pointed out some of these risks about eight or so years ago when I worked in a related field. Eight years is actually pretty good for a government response, even half-baked. Sigh.

    1. martinusher Silver badge

      Re: Similar Conclusion

      It wasn't that many years ago that all we heard in the press was "gobaliization, Globalization, GLOBALIZATION!!!". It was the ultimate Good Thing because it was the route to increased profits without the mess and inconvenience of capital investment and a local labor force. (Its not that products couldn't be made locally but you could make more profit by outsourcing.)

      Now the latest Big Thing is selling software upgrades. A car isn't a form of transportation, its a tool to trap users into an endless cycle of subscriptions. Again, the promise of profit without all that tedious investment business (especially if you can get AI to write the software for you). Now the push is to tell us how we can't live without this, how its important for our safety and security to go with the program and, of course, if you buy from a competing make that's not making profits for us then you're running the risk of being subservient to them. (The fact that 'they' make many components that go into an allegedly locally made car -- and also some complete cars that are badged locally -- is irrelevant, of course. Its bad if we aren't making the profits.)

      Its all BS. There is absolutely nothing in a vehicle that benefits from a cloud connection except, maybe, the owner of the cloud. (Same really for just about anything -- its sometimes convenient to use a cloud but its never absolutely essential.)

    2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Similar Conclusion

      > buying a China-built electric car - - represents a very high risk.

      China isn't the highly connected, EV-making country country threatening to annex me

    3. Blazde Silver badge

      Re: Similar Conclusion

      I'm no fan of CCP espionage/cyber-war practises but really can't see any argument against banning all these over-connected cars. Even in a modern EV there's no good reason for any internet connection whatsoever (as long as you're willing to forgo on-the-cheap self-driving pipe dreams of the kind Elon has made a fool of himself pushing for a decade already). There are minor advantages, and major cons, and that's about all it's worth saying if you're not in the business of deceptively marketing minor advantages.

  3. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

    Didn't they do this for Tesla too?

    Tesla was banned earlier for the same reason, so nothing new here.

    It seems it is time to adjust the parking spaces for "external cars", including their way to those places: Optical + IR obstruction, wall them in. Does not have to be expensive, wood is cheap and good enough.

  4. gryphon

    UK Unofficial

    Can't find official MOD guidance but seems that this is active already at certain sites in the UK.

    https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/366599/chinese-evs-banned-uk-military-sites-over-spying-concerns

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: UK Unofficial

      Technically - via some legal entity bollocks - Polestar is a UK company, though owned by Li Shufu (founder and Chairman of Geely and also Chairman of Volvo Cars), Volvo Cars (owned by Geely), Geely and some investors..

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polestar

  5. Antifa - Ost

    Cool! A car stereo for 50€!

    What about the influx of really cheap (like 50 bucks) android car entertainment systems? You know, the one you plug your rear/front cameras into and turn location on in order to use the navigation? The ones you plug in your car mic into, so you can phone handsfree while driving (most of them have a built-in mic anyway)?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Cool! A car stereo for 50€!

      You your $€500 one also made in China, connected to your iPhone made in China are obviously safe !

  6. jpennycook

    They seem a bit late, given that China banned Teslas from going near its military bases ages ago

    1. Neil Barnes Silver badge

      China already knows where its military bases are...

  7. Andy The Hat

    Digital security in the hands of the experts

    At least the UK solar power infrastructure expansion based on chinese tech will be digitally secure ... Perhaps the minister doing the deal needs to be answering questions in Parliamentary committee about it? Oh he did ...

    "Minister you are claiming to have made a major deal with the Chinese regarding renewable energy and solar power."

    "Ask me any question about it and I'll answer."

    "Is it secure - do the chinese have control of a remote cut-off switch?"

    "Wibble! Ask me another!"

    "What is the cost of the deal?"

    "Wibble wibble. This is such fun! Ask me anything relevant, go on anything ..."

    "What is this deal actually for?"

    "Wibble. Can I borrow a pair of underpants and a couple of pencils please? Go on, ask a proper question this time."

    For those who saw it, you may not have noticed but I have basically paraphrased Milliband's responses. I'm not sure which was worse, his complete ambivalence to questions about cyber security of power infrastructure developments or that he thought the whole thing was funny.

    1. cyberdemon Silver badge
      Childcatcher

      Re: Digital security in the hands of the experts

      I didn't see this, but would like to. What was the date or title of the debate, or ideally can you link to it on Hansard?

      1. Blazde Silver badge

        Re: Digital security in the hands of the experts

        I think he's referring to this:

        13:53:40 https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/75665e5d-499d-459f-8acd-6d0e8b22c7c4

        It does sort of sum the current government's failings. We all know the previous government sucked major ass. That's why these guys are in office now. The blame game should have stopped shortly after the 2024 election, and at this point this kind of thing: "we're following the practices of the previous government", blame them if you don't like it, is unquestionably lame.

        It's bad because Miliband is one of the more experienced, capable hands. He shouldn't have to dodge like this. But it's also depressing because, in trying to present themselves as more competent and trustworthy, Labour expose themselves even more to looking lame in this kind of scenario. A Tory of recent years would be smiling and doubling down on this kind of banter 2 seconds later and would be lauded as some kind of culture warrior for dodging a meaningful question about slave labour or whatever. Miliband looks embarrassed because it is embarrassing and he's human enough to see that. Confidence is the root of all deception.

        1. cyberdemon Silver badge
          Facepalm

          Re: Digital security in the hands of the experts

          Thanks for the link.. Good grief, that is cringeworthy. He must have said "We're following the practices of the previous government. But ask me ANY QUESTION YOU LIKE about our relationship with China!" at least 10 times consecutively..

          I do appreciate where you're coming from. It reminds me of a pub (long since closed) near my way called The Honest Lawyer. (in case the pic doesn't load: the pub sign is a barrister in a jail cell). Just opposite The Bent Brief (also sadly closed).

          I.e. politics (and law) is and always has been a game of deceit. Which to most of us is depressing, as we were led to believe (especially when Starmer's labour was voted in) that it had cleaned up its act. So any politicians attempting to portray themselves as honest are perhaps making a rod for their own backs: How can you pretend to be honest, if you are playing a game of deceit.

          While I agree that Milibean is "experienced", I disagree that he is "capable" (except of vassalising the country to powers far worse than the EU). He has demonstrated a lack of understanding about energy in his post as energy secretary, and a willingness to just accept whatever he is told by lobbyists e.g. those from Drax (or the default action, just copy the Tories)

          The most disappointing fact about Starmer's Labour for me is that they are following exactly the policies of the previous Tory government. So much for "change". And by doing so, they are playing directly into the hands of Farage's neo-blackshirts.

          1. Blazde Silver badge

            Re: Digital security in the hands of the experts

            I use the word 'capable' only in a relative sense :)

            So any politicians attempting to portray themselves as honest are perhaps making a rod for their own backs: How can you pretend to be honest, if you are playing a game of deceit.

            Still, it is better than the divisive alternative of acknowledging you're being deceitful but somehow arguing(*) that you're doing it for the benefit of 'your' people/voters.

            (*) Dishonestly usually, of course.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Digital security in the hands of the experts

      Good luck getting any Solar not made in China.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Electro-gizmo-cam-bleepers

    My 15 year old car is getting more and more valuable.

    No connectivity, but Bluetooth and no warning systems outside engine management and seat belt lights.

    Even made locally.

    1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

      Re: Electro-gizmo-cam-bleepers

      And without mandatory auto-braking, lane assist, distance warnings I hope, like mine (eight years old now)...

    2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Electro-gizmo-cam-bleepers

      So in the event of a Gamma Ray Burst / EMP event / Carrington solar flare - my 70's MGB's electrics will not be affected ?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Electro-gizmo-cam-bleepers

        Correct. Lucas electrics will work just as reliably after an EMP. Perhaps moreso, kind of like annealing.

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge
          Pint

          Re: Electro-gizmo-cam-bleepers

          That was the punchline !

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Electro-gizmo-cam-bleepers

            When Britain announced it's embargo on sale of Lucas parts to Russia, there was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth - in Kyiv

      2. elDog Silver badge

        Re: Electro-gizmo-cam-bleepers

        You got the model with electric wires? Mine just had twine.

  9. mark l 2 Silver badge

    All those electrical system in modern cars are just extra things to go wrong after a few years. Do we really think they are using the best components in them that will last for a decade or longer? They want us to pay tens of thousand of pounds for cars which will probably last as long as a cheap laptop.

    1. Fred Dibnah
      Linux

      My cheap laptop is over 20 years old and still working just fine.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Where was it made ?

    2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Some are better, electric windows are more reliable than manual ones

      Some are necessary, try meeting emissions spec with a carburettor and manual choke and safety with a push-button manual air-bag

      Some save money, a canbus is cheaper than running individual wires to ever light/switch/actuator

      Funnily the ones that the manufactures were pushing, the expensive fancy pay-for-upgrades infotainment and satnav is the stuff people just replace with their phone

      1. Scene it all

        And for spite, the some manufacturers like GM are dropping support for connecting the car to your phone so you can see the nav stuff on the big screen, to force you to subscribe to THEIR built-in nav stuff with IT'S tracking/spying instead of the Apple/Google tracking your phone does.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      My MG Maestro Turbo didn’t need any of that frippery. You can still see the rusty stain on the driveway where it succumbed to weather-related erosion..

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Just ahead of their time, the self-recycling bio-degradable eco-car

  10. VoiceOfTruth Silver badge

    Rewriting history

    >> as many nations decided Huawei and ZTE kit should not be allowed into their telecoms network because they could facilitate snooping

    No. The USA realised it could not compete with Huawei and ZTE. Hence the ban. The USA then leant on its poodles to do the same.

    Do not underestimate just how corrupt and rancid the USA is. Trump wants to prevent the Gordie Howe bridge that Canada paid for from opening. One of his friends is the billionaire Moroun family. They made their money by owning the competing Ambassador Bridge between the USA and Canada, and stand to lose a lot of money if/when the Howe bridge is opened. Some 'donations' and a few words in the ear of the Orange Sex Offender, and we saw what happened.

    Huawei is likely the technology leader in telecoms. That is why the USA banned it. Now stop trying to rewrite history.

    1. Casca Silver badge

      Re: Rewriting history

      VoT: Bla, bla bla anti west bla bla bla

      1. VoiceOfTruth Silver badge

        Re: Rewriting history

        Point out one thing I have written which is incorrect.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Rewriting history

          "The USA realised it could not compete with Huawei and ZTE."

          USA companies have never really competed in mobile networks infrastructure at all - for many years the dominant players have been Ericsson, Nokia, and Huawei, with ZTE and Samsung as smaller players.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Rewriting history

          “Point out one thing I have written which is incorrect.”

          Who’s got time to write a thesis?

  11. H in The Hague

    Also industrial vehicles

    A company I know of rented and borrowed some Chinese industrial vehicles to take a look at them. Those have cameras to give the operator a better view of the area around their vehicle. They noticed that some of the electronics were still drawing power even when the vehicles was supposed to be switched off. So before bringing them onto their site, they put masking tape over all the cameras.

    1. gaston

      Re: Also industrial vehicles

      Or those Chinese dock cranes that come preinstalled with cameras and cellular modems.

      https://www.newser.com/story/347478/on-the-china-built-cranes-at-us-ports-a-concerning-find.html

    2. elDog Silver badge

      Re: Also industrial vehicles

      Ah. Cutting the power draw by masking the cameras. Genius!

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It isn’t just the Chinese it is everyone

    The Chinese should be commended for actually extracting value out of turning buyer/end users into product. Just about every car manufacturer has actively worked at minimizing what the buyer actually owns when they drive off the car lot with their BSO (bright shiny object).

    Remove the oil dip stick under the guise of better software monitoring. Now manufacturers are discussing removing the oil pan and screw so only dealers can change oil. I think the tipping point was around 2008, when the United States forced German automakers to include remote access. Unfortunately, it is getting difficult to find certain spare parts for cars before then and some “lifetime” plastic components are starting to break down.

    On one hand over the air updates seem like a good idea but when a manufacturer’s servers go offline (permanently in a bankruptcy) cars are bricked.

    The World is well past electronics as surveillance and spyware. When John Deere bricked Ukrainian tractors taken back to Russia, it became obvious physical ownership no longer means functional ownership. Under sanctions, I’m amazed governments have not called for ALL server based software in Russia to be turned off. All those oligarchs having their Mercedes and BMW’s stuck would make a point (i heard that Porsch actually has done something along these lines).

    Then again maybe the NSA is keeping those cars running in order to collect intelligence data. It certainly is naive to think China is the ONLY country using connected electronics for espionage. It is more interesting that threat actors ( not even Nation States) have not started using connected devices to cause “accidents”, such as overriding elevator safeties. Or deploying airbags at 100kph. It certainly offers more plausible deniability than Putin’s opposition constantly falling out of windows.

    In summary, the Chinese may be more crude and obvious in their techniques since they are driven by a need to reverse engineer technology. That other incidents are not being reported either points to self restraint or such well executed espionage it will remain unreported until the next “Snowden”.

  13. Slant Four

    related but unrelated

    Took my car in for a service and got a new fangled MG as a loaner.

    Driving along getting used to the controls and I notice an icon that represents a speed sign on the driver display..

    This has me baffled.... are speed limits at various parts of my journey living in some Cloud database and GPS is referencing this?

    Nope... it's camera(s) is/are scanning the horizon for posted road signs and then posting these on the info display.

    The tell was that at several points on my journey, we hit roadworks with 30k signs that didn't have a contra sign at the end of the road works (or it didn't see them) so when I am traveling on a 100km motorway, the display showed 30k.

    So basically a next to useless feature that someone in product development thought was a good idea and wasted time/money on it.

    Also the driver assist features were a bit "sensitive/paranoid" and would warn me of non-existent issues regularly and in some cases would actually apply the brakes and/or nudge the steering wheel in a direction it felt was needed. Not to the point of being dangerous but after the 10th time it was annoying.

    Bluck

    1. ilovesaabaeros

      Re: related but unrelated

      It can be worse than that. I have an MG EV (I really like it, mostly) but the driver "assistance" features are terrible. The speed limit warning one especially believes that all UK National Speed Limits are 60mph, so on a motorway or dual carriageway where it's 70mph it nags constantly that you are speeding. Thankfully it can be disabled easily, but it has to be disabled evert time you start the car, which is annoying.

      The steering assist stays off thankfully, since that will steer you back into the pothole you are swerving around unless you indicate. The only good "assistance" thing on it is the automatic cruise control, it's so much more smooth and comfortable than any other system I have experienced, even in supposedly higher end cars like Mercs and Volvos.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: related but unrelated

      So basically a next to useless feature that someone in product development thought was a good idea and wasted time/money on it.

      Not an idea by product development, simply an implementation of EU regulations and the copycat British ones.

  14. Bebu sa Ware Silver badge
    Happy

    Polski Fiat 125p ?

    Just have a large carpark outside the facilities' secure areas and transfer visitors to one of these Soviet era conveyances. ;)

    In the UK a fleet of mini Mokes would be equally unfeatured - bare bones and the skeleton is showing although it could also make a UK military base look like a scene from "The Prisoner."

  15. Gene Cash Silver badge

    "buying a China-built electric car"

    I won't ever buy an electric vehicle from ANYONE ever again. Chinese, Korean, American... I don't care.

    It's all proprietary, and when it breaks, you get to keep both pieces. You have no recourse other than the original manufacturer, who holds ALL the cards. Getting it repaired is usually more expensive than a new vehicle, and if it's not, it's usually a 9-month-plus living hell.

    Fuck that shit.

    Been there, done that, got the t-shirt... and so have 3 of my friends, who have also experienced this pain.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: "buying a China-built electric car"

      And that is different to a modern liquid dinosaur car , how ?

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