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back to article You can jailbreak an F-35 just like an iPhone, says Dutch defense chief

Lockheed Martin's F-35 fighter aircraft can be jailbroken "just like an iPhone," the Netherlands' defense secretary has claimed. Gijs Tuinman made the comments during a podcast interview after being asked whether the aircraft's software could be modified by European forces without permission from the US should it withdraw as …

  1. Guy de Loimbard Silver badge
    Meh

    You'd like to think

    You should be able to maintain Sovereignty of the military hardware you purchase, particularly in these extremely software heavy defence tools, like aircraft.

    I'd imagine, if you can't build your own kit, the one thing you should be able to do is control how it operates without some lunatic at the helm being able to turn it off on a whim, surely?

    I for one would be looking to do that on pretty much any deal that involved buying kit from another nation, because, as we've just seen, an ally can turn into something not quite that, in a short tantrum or two.

    1. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: You'd like to think

      Given, I doubt source code is available, I don’t see the reverse engineering of the F-35 flight system software, the removal any locks etc and so enable the aircraft to return to service in the sort of timescales a conflict situation would demand. There again, perhaps there is a skunk works team buried deep in the MOD (deeper than an Iranian nuclear enrichment plant) who have been working this problem for years…

      1. EdSaxby

        Re: You'd like to think

        You never know, you might be able to just ask ChatGPT one day and it will give it to you.

        1. Homo.Sapien.Floridanus

          Re: You'd like to think

          “one can't go buy an F-35 on eBay,"

          But what if you collect enough Pepsi points?

        2. Eric 9001

          Re: You'd like to think

          ChatGPT can only vomit or excrete training data - unless ChatGPT was trained on a copy of the F-35 software source code, you'll never see it in the output.

          1. Herring`

            Re: You'd like to think

            Given that all these organisations are rolling out AI crap, it is quite possible that it's in there somewhere

    2. Like a badger Silver badge

      Re: You'd like to think

      Well this bloke is on to a loser for a start if he thinks that the engine is Rolls Royce (it is fact a Pratt & Whitney F135), the RR involvement is simply the lift fan. In terms of jailbreaking the software, good luck with that. Some of the minor systems code comes from BAe which we could amend, but I'll bet a round of drinks that the weapons systems and most critical avionics is entirely down to Lockheed Martin.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: You'd like to think

        > most critical avionics is entirely down to Lockheed Martin.

        Who presumably outsourced it to India

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: You'd like to think

          Only if that's the cheapest possible option.

          It could be Philippines, Bangladesh or Belarus.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: You'd like to think

            Naah, it's Russia. They have the best programmers and I'm sure the military only wants the best.

      2. Snapper
        FAIL

        Re: You'd like to think

        Yeah, that set off my 'This Fucker Does Not Know WTF He Is Talking About' tingle!

      3. MarkMLl

        Re: You'd like to think

        > Some of the minor systems code comes from BAe which we could amend

        That's BAE Systems Inc., which is American with government-vetted directors etc. specifically so that they can supply to the US military without leaks.

    3. I am David Jones Silver badge

      Re: You'd like to think

      Beyond contractual assurances, would it even be possible to confirm that a modern aircraft doesn’t have remote kill-switch functionality buried in its code?

      1. JPCavendish

        Re: You'd like to think

        I think it's fair to say that (a) if a kill switch existed it would have been identified by now, and (b) if it did exist, it could be circumvented.

        The reason I'm confident in saying it doesn't exist is because it is totally unnecessary. The 'real' kill switch isn't hardware or software, it's supply chain. F-35 airframes may be rated for 8,000 hours, but the componentry isn't - the MTBF (minor) is around the 4 hour flight time mark, and the MTBF Major around 30 hours; which means that when the US turns off the parts tap, any country who isn't the US has an F-35 fleet with a combined lifetime of around 30 hours before they start dropping from the sky.

        You can't fight a war on 30 hours.

        1. ChoHag Silver badge

          Re: You'd like to think

          > You can't fight a war on 30 hours.

          At 10 hours a day you should be able to squeeze it in. Just ask Russia.

        2. Rich 11

          Re: You'd like to think

          You can't fight a war on 30 hours.

          I think the current record is about 45 minutes.

        3. Claptrap314 Silver badge
          Angel

          Re: You'd like to think

          Oh, come on! Wars typically last about an hour, according to every movie I've ever been to...

          1. that one in the corner Silver badge

            Re: You'd like to think

            The more apocalyptic the war, the faster it is over: most "before times" wars barely fill the teaser before the title sequence!

        4. Stork

          Re: You'd like to think

          Perhaps that is another reason Ukraine went for Gripen

      2. Jon 37

        Re: You'd like to think

        Microsoft has the ability to push out Windows Updates to every Windows PC. An update could (deliberately or accidentally) brick a PC. Microsoft may have, but could certainly develop, a way for its Windows Update servers to deliver a particular update to a particular targeted PC or group of PCs.

        Is that a "kill switch"?

        I would argue that it's either a "kill switch" or close enough to being a "kill switch" as makes no difference. If the US government passed a law saying Microsoft had to brick all PCs in a particular country, then Microsoft has the technical ability to comply with that.

        Similarly for any other company that does automatic updates to their software.

        And similarly for software updates for F-35s.

        Note that a malicious update doesn't have to be malicious immediately, it could be set to activate on a later date. That way, it could pass whatever testing of updates you do, and you wouldn't discover the malicious payload until it was too late.

        Also note that a deliberately malicious update can actually destroy hardware. E.g. doing a "firmware update" to your SSD with a new firmware that doesn't work, to require you to physically replace the SSD. Or a BIOS update so you have to replace the motherboard, etc etc. On some systems, it's possible for malicious code to cause hardware damage, e.g. turning your processor voltage up to way more than recommended, or turning fans off and trying to destroy parts by overheating them. I don't know if the F-35 has any systems where code could cause hardware damage, but it's quite likely.

        1. sanmigueelbeer

          Re: You'd like to think

          Microsoft has the ability to push out Windows Updates to every Windows PC. An update could (deliberately or accidentally) brick a PC.

          I remembered this happened several years ago (Windows 10). A company manufactured this piece of PC card for a specific application/control (I do not remember what it was) and this card got "copied" by a company in China.

          So the company submitted a driver update to MS which caused a vital chip in the counterfeit cards to fail/stop working.

          1. Roland6 Silver badge

            Re: You'd like to think

            Before that was the NTFS update MS sent out which bricked lots of systems because as on investigation they had been infected with some malware that hadn’t been previously detected.

          2. Eric 9001
            Boffin

            Re: You'd like to think

            It was likely FTDI - that malicious company pushed out proprietary malware updates that bricked FTDI-compatible cards via reprogramming the USB PID to 0, not once, but twice.

            Remember that FTDI-compatible cards are 100% legal as long as they are not solid as being from "FTDI" and even then, FTDI can pursue such cases of trademark infringement - there is clearly no need to go and implement proprietary malware and maliciously push it out.

            As far as I can tell, the reason FTDI did so, was because they despised how there were quality compatible usb serial cards available.

            After all, good ones didn't have bugs FTDI couldn't be bothered to fix and are significantly cheaper, despite using more expensive programmable chips, rather than fabbed chips (FTDI could undercut compatible usb serial cards on price, but they prefer premium prices).

            https://hackaday.com/2014/10/22/watch-that-windows-update-ftdi-drivers-are-killing-fake-chips/

            https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/10/windows-update-drivers-bricking-usb-serial-chips-beloved-of-hardware-hackers/

            https://it.slashdot.org/story/16/01/31/1720259/ftdi-driver-breaks-hardware-again

            https://www.zdnet.com/article/ftdi-admits-to-bricking-innocent-users-chips-in-silent-update/

            https://hackaday.com/2016/02/01/ftdi-drivers-break-fake-chips-again/

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: You'd like to think

              That bit of idiocy was why we stopped buying FTDI chips.

              The bugs were bad enough, but the fact they spent time on sabotage instead of fixing their bugs pushed us over the edge.

              In the end we saved quite a lot of money.

            2. sanmigueelbeer

              Re: You'd like to think

              Yes, I think it was FTDI.

              And FTDI was not the only one. There are several very well-known companies in the world who quietly practice this.

              I know of a multi-billion dollar company who used to ship their equipment with >90 year certificates. One day, they announced a patch to fix a security vulnerability to one of their gadgets. What they did not want to tell anyone was that in that security patch was a 10 year certificate which, conveniently, over-wrote the previous certificate.

              Two months after the end-of-life date kicked in, the devices suddenly stopped working. And because the HTTPS access also uses the same certificate (HTTP and telnet are disabled in the software and SSH is not working in known port), no one can actually "see" what is going on nor can someone downgrade the software. Once you've uploaded the security patch, the device stops working. The manufacturer then fell back to the age old argument that since the devices are already past their end-of-life, the manufacturer is not obligated to release a fix.

              So a software "kill-switch" is not really difficult to implement.

          3. bombastic bob Silver badge
            Pirate

            Re: You'd like to think

            FTDI was one example. The fakes still work with Linux and BSD, and Micros~1 (or maybe it was FTDI) got sued for having a driver that would actually damage the fake and make it unusable. FTDI makes USB to serial chips, and one of these was faked. Hardware makers could not tell the difference and the supply chains got a good scrubbing to eliminate the chips. The windows driver was updated to simply "not work" with the fakes.

            That's probably the one you're thinking of. Yes, it happened.

        2. Roland6 Silver badge
          Joke

          Re: You'd like to think

          So the real reason why the US didn’t supply aircraft to Ukraine:

          Day 1: fly US to Ukraine

          Day 2: trading Ukraine pilots

          Day 3: Use against Russia targets

          Day 4: Grounded waiting for spares…

          US in a bind, they need to send spares, just to get the planes back…

        3. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: You'd like to think

          "Microsoft has the ability to push out Windows Updates to every Windows PC"

          Fortunately, not mine. It's not connected to the internet.

          1. Claptrap314 Silver badge

            Re: You'd like to think

            You fiend!

          2. that one in the corner Silver badge

            Re: You'd like to think

            Looks like a downvote from that person who insists it isn't possible to use a computer without an Internet connection.

            1. Ken G Silver badge

              Re: You'd like to think

              "The Network is the Computer"

              John Gage, Sun Microsystems (1984).

              1. Roland6 Silver badge

                Re: You'd like to think

                Interesting piece here: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/network-computer-christophe-crespin-acha

                I found his interesting: “ But Gage saw something others missed: the power of computing comes from interconnected resources, not individual machines.”

                I would say this wasn’t an original idea, just he happened to be in a place where it had resonance and he had influence.

                Distributed processing wasn’t new in 1984, the transputer had been launched in 1983 and we had been doing distributed processing for years previously(*), it could almost be said it was the norm with the new generation of microcomputers. I suspect Gage being at Berkeley was familiar with the BSD distribution’s development and the thinking behind it having networking built in, unlike AT&T Unix.

                (*) My first industry placement in 1979 was with a company that made systems comprised initially of Digico Micro16e’s then of dozens of 8080/8085’s networked together - both locally and remotely so you build a geographically distributed network of nodes consisting of dozens of microcomputers networked together, they also held patents for the technology dated a few years previously.

                I think CTL (founder Ian Barron who went on to form Inmos) also had a system offering that was composed of multiple interconnected processors.

              2. MachDiamond Silver badge

                Re: You'd like to think

                "The Network is the Computer"

                I can find it more of a distraction. I grew up with printed reference material and have to admit that it is much faster to look things up online, provided I can find a source and it isn't a bait/switch site or a paywalled site for information that can be found without paying (data sheets, etc). The problem is that it's only faster if I don't get distracted by ............ Squirrel!

          3. Sam not the Viking Silver badge

            Re: You'd like to think

            "Bandits at none-o'clock, Leader."

            "Jolly good. Tally-ho, chaps."

            "Your Windows update is complete. System restart -\I/- ....."

          4. sitta_europea

            Re: You'd like to think

            "...

            Fortunately, not mine. It's not connected to the internet."

            Mine isn't even booted unless I need to test something for BackupPC.

          5. David Hicklin Silver badge

            Re: You'd like to think

            > Fortunately, not mine. It's not connected to the internet.

            Which implies that this comment is not written on that windows PC, something the down voter missed !

        4. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: You'd like to think

          > I don't know if the F-35 has any systems where code could cause hardware damage, but it's quite likely.

          Arming without dropping? (Teach it phenomenology!)

          Spinning up the lift fan without opening the ports?

          Shutting off the fly by wire once above 500 feet?

          1. Fr. Ted Crilly Silver badge

            Re: You'd like to think

            Up vote for the Bomb 20 reference...

        5. sitta_europea

          Re: You'd like to think

          "... I don't know if the F-35 has any systems where code could cause hardware damage ..."

          Er, uncommanded nose down?

          1. Craig Foster

            Re: You'd like to think

            Boeing has that patent

      3. MarkMLl

        Re: You'd like to think

        It is unlikely that the F-35 has a "kill switch" which could be activated mid-mission. There is however a risk that IFF codes could be manipulated in realtime.

        It is unknown whether mission setup has to be cleared by America.

        It is likely that the major software updates applied every couple of years have a "not to be flown after" date embedded in them.

        It is certain that a Pentagon-ordered interruption to the parts supply chain would brick the aircraft.

      4. Diez66

        Re: You'd like to think

        I am sure it has a kill switch,

        Press it and the target (may) be killed.

        Pretty much what the whole plane is designed to do, me thinks.

    4. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: You'd like to think

      From article: Israel is the only country to have negotiated a deal with Lockheed Martin, allowing it to run its own software on its F-35I fleet.

      They probably just asked nicely and paid money for the source+documentation.

      UK and EU aren't going to be on the USA's "enemy list" at any time in the foreseeable future, regardless of how little a sense of humor certain EU "leaders" and agitators the press (allegedly) **FEEL** (not think) about it.

      In any case, it's probably a FEATURE (not a bug) to allow other-than-Lockheed software to be loaded under the right conditions.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: You'd like to think

        More like blackmailed, bribed or intimidated whoever

  2. may_i Silver badge

    There's a great alternative to the F35

    The Swedish JAS Gripen.

    More flexible, faster, far cheaper and the Swedes will let you build them yourself in your own country. There's no kill switch either.

    1. ComicalEngineer Silver badge

      Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

      You forgot to add that you can buy 4 Gripens for the price of 1 F35.

      1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

        Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

        You forgot to add that you can buy 4 Gripens for the price of 1 F35.

        ComicalEngineer,

        You really can't. And it's not even close. In fact an F-35 is possibly cheaper than a Gripen. When Norway selected F-35, they said that Gripen was more expensive, as you can imagine SAAB disagreed! Most of the Western fighters are pretty similar cost-wise, I think the big exception is the F-18, and maybe the F-16 - although that keeps getting upgrades, and so the costs keep creeping up again.

        The US budget office said that the F-35A was costing them $75m (I think that's now gone up to $80m). Estimates for the Gripen seem to wander between $65-$85m. However the F-35 comes without engine, and those have been getting more expensive, due to upgrades and shortages, so the flyaway cost of an F-35A now is probably $90-$95m? The Eurofighter and Rafale both seem to be round-about the $100m mark, along with the F-15EX (maybe a bit more).

        However, operating costs are a different matter. And there, the Gripen is king. From public estimates, you get about $5,000 an hour operating costs. The Rafale and Eurofighter are about $20k an hour, and F-35 is up around the high $30k mark, and operating costs are not falling, as promised. Partly because not enough was invested in spares production, and now we're amazingly, short of spare parts. Who'd-a-thunk it? Again F-18 are nice and cheap to run - that really does seem to be a highly capable, and affordable aircraft.

        Part of Gripen's advantage here is being physically smaller. Against F-35 it also doesn't have to worry about stealth coatings, or an absurdly complicated supply chain. Although that complexity is partly deliberate, and what makes it a joint strike fighter. Even the US don't completely control F-35's supply chain, and various countries make bits that are vital to its operation, so that if anyone does get cut off, the whole thing could fall apart - making everyone's F-35s useless.

        So you can operate Gripen for much less money. It's going to cost much less over its lifetime, though probably about the same at the start. But it's also less capable. And as stealth aircraft become more common, that will probably become more important. In ten years time the aircraft world is going to look very different again. There'll be new 6th gen (if that even means anything) aircraft coming into operations, Russia ought to have a decent number of stealth aircraft (admittedly of dubious quality) in squadron service, and are selling them to Algeria. Trump may have sold F-35 to the Saudis (and others) though he'll have to get a move on before he loses control of Congress. China has got two frontline stealth aircraft now - and many more in development - and once their new shiny comes along, they may be willing to sell to allies, like Pakistan. Hell, they might even be willing to sell to Russia - if SU-57 really is as bad as some people think. Ten years is not a long time in military procurement terms nowadays. People are buying F-35 for a reason.

        1. Like a badger Silver badge

          Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

          People are buying F-35 for a reason.

          Yes, that it is the only modern high capability semi-stealth attack aircraft in the Western shops.

          Europe has the know how and could have produced a current generation competitor to the F35, but it seems to me as a casual observer that nobody in Europe wanted to pony up the development cash in previous years. The Typhoon, Gripen and Rafale are all older and less capable. And depressingly, evidence of how European manage to mess things up. Individually, all three are nice assets, great at airshows and in their design roles, but three separate development budgets to produce three competing canard delta fighters at about the same time.

          1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

            Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

            Like a badger,

            Nobody in Europe would stump up for a new stealth aircraft except the UK in the 90s. With no partners we'd have had to pay the vast expense to go it alone - so joined F-35. At least we're getting something like 15% of the workshare - and since LM have failed to get our weapons integrated we've only bought 5% of the aircraft ordered. The last government OK'd the purchase of another 25 - taking us to 73 - but that was on condition we were satisfied our weapons would be integrated. I believe it's still in the budget, but a budget is not the same as a contract.

            I think that pulling in Japan has made a better Tempest coalition than the Typhoon one. Since Germany has acted as a roadblock to so much of Typhoon's progress. But that could still go horribly wrong, as a new country's defence industry tries to tie in with ours and Italy's (who are used to each other).

            God knows what'll happen with FCAS. I suspect it'll survive though. I think it's too late for Germany to jump ship and join us. Although they're talking about it publicly, the workshare is all sorted out. Why leave being treated as a junior partner by France, to be an actual junior partner in an already sorted out program? Plus France maybe can't afford to go it alone this time, as they did with Rafale - so they'll have to make a reasonable deal with the Germans. Plus It's France's job to flounces out of the joint program...

            1. DS999 Silver badge

              Europe is definitely going to get together on this

              They don't trust the US anymore, and I don't blame them. Petty disputes between France and Germany, or the UK having Brexit'ed, will all be water under the bridge as they all get together for future defense work and cut the US companies totally out of the mix. Trump acting crazy and saying stupid shit was one thing. Even the tariffs they could have tolerated knowing they'd be a temporary thing. But when he started saber rattling about Greenland that was it.

              Similar to how talking about Canada as the 51st first became the moment Canadians quit buying US products as much as possible and canceled vacations here. And come to think of it, I'm sure you'll have a willing partner in "Europe's" future defense efforts with Canada, who won't want any part of trusting their defense tech entirely to the US anymore.

              The good thing about this from the perspective of the US is that it will finally drive a stake through the heart of the military industrial complex here. Boondoggles like the F35 were only possible by rounding up a bunch of other countries. The "F47" program will be stillborn, and good riddance. Beginning the process of designing a new manned fighter that would begin use in the 2040s is a complete waste of money. Drone technology will be so advanced by then no manned fighters will be anywhere near any real action, because the plane will be downed before it runs through its first tank of gas.

              1. CountCadaver Silver badge

                Re: Europe is definitely going to get together on this

                I seem to recall the 1950s zeitgeist was manned aircraft would be obsolete before the early to mid 1960s - leading to cancellation of the TSR2 and the avro Arrow....

                Yet 70+ years later we are still building, flying and designing manned jets

                1. DS999 Silver badge

                  Re: Europe is definitely going to get together on this

                  Who was saying that? Where were the hordes of autonomous craft in the 50s that could lead anyone with half a brain to actually believe that?

                  Whereas today you can see the hordes of autonomous craft, and see their capability growing by leaps and bounds. And that's just what we can see, what China is developing and testing behind closed doors is something maybe known to the CIA but you can bet the Air Force isn't going to publicize it. It is run by former fighter jocks and if left up to them they will not accept the end of manned fighter craft until forced to by devastating losses in battle.

          2. Casca Silver badge

            Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

            No, they bought F-35 because of politics and buying from the US was seen as a safe bet...

          3. Johan Bastiaansen

            Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

            The Germans thought at one point only the best kit would hold the Russian hordes back. Turns out quantity has a quality all its own and they should have produced more simple and reliable tanks instead of the behemoths they fielded.

            Russia is like Burkina Faso with nukes. It simply doesn't have the economy to take on EU Nato states, even when we don't have the support from the US.

        2. Deckard_C

          Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

          Lot 18 is basically $100 flyaway of which engine about $20 million that is the US Government price which doesn't include the R&D cost. Non US governments price will be higher.

          A problem with the F-35 is weapon choice you basically only get what weapons the US want to integrate for there use on the F-35 and they have plenty of other launch platforms. Look at the UK tier 1 partner , Stormshadow f-35 not ready when needed so got put Eurofighter instead, Brimstone integration got delayed until after end of service of Brimstone so integration cancelled, Meteor integration delayed so had to buy AIM-120 as interim (and delayed again to 2030s just realised AIM-260 is being developed by LM), Spear (brimstone replacement) missile is ready but currently 3 years delay waiting on F-35 integration. For Spear all the weapon testing has been done on the Eurofighter.

          1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

            Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

            Deckard_C,

            Lot 18 is basically $100 flyaway of which engine about $20 million that is the US Government price which doesn't include the R&D cost. Non US governments price will be higher.

            F-35 is a genuinely joint project. In that everyone is being jointly screwed by Lockheed Martin. And

            As I understand it, everyone in the program pays the same price - although all the purchases go through the US government and then the foreign military sales system, as usual.

            But the program was designed in the 90s by the Bush and Clinton administrations. Europe weren't investing in stealth planes, and only the UK was willing to join a program, so the idea was to create a cheap one (oops!) that would replace F16 in US service and be an upgrade for European NATO. They built is as a joint program from the ground up. So everyone is a partner in the program and partnership gets you work. This means that nobody fully controls the program.

            No country makes a full set of spares for F-35. No country makes a full set of parts for F-35. So if the US try to kill the program for someone else, they risk killing it for themselves. The US budget office said that it cost $9 billion to rebuild the capacity required when Turkey were kicked out of the program. They had the European engine rebuild centre, and made quite a few parts - and all of that industrial capacity had to be re-created elsewhere at short notice.

            A problem with the F-35 is weapon choice you basically only get what weapons the US want to integrate

            Again, this is wrong. You only get the weapons LM can integrate. That means the US government are also waiting.

            Hence Meteor, Spear 3, plus Norway's NSM and the US JASSM, LRASM, small-diameter bomb, JAGM and AARGM are all in integration hell as well. AIM 260 has also been added to the list, but the others were supposed to be integrated by 2026 or so - and are now delayed until 2029 - and given LM's consistent failure to even be able to guess how badly they'll miss deadlines - who knows?

        3. Johan Bastiaansen

          Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

          The lower operating costs means Gripen pilots will be trained better. And in the end, it's the combination of the machine AND the human in the cockpit.

          Also, what capacity does the Gripen not have? It can't drop nukes on Moscow?

          WAIT ! ! ! Aren't we supposedly a defensive alliance? Why would we have to nuke Moscow then? Or more realistically, drop the nth nuke on the smoldering ruins of what once was Moscow.

          And China, Pakistan? Isn't the US supposed to take care of them? Isn't that the whole reason why we're in this mess?

          No, we have to deal with Russia and we do NOT need an overwhelming European army at our borders to protect us either. John von Neumann will be rolling in his grave. That will just start another weapons race at a huge financial cost for everybody. We need just enough to deter them or hold them back until our far bigger economy churns out the tools to drive them back.

        4. Stork

          Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

          It is also my impression that you get more hours in the air per plane with Gripen, it is built to be simple to maintain.

      2. JLV Silver badge

        Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

        For the airframe cost you are wrong.

        However the Gripen is much cheaper per flight hour and is designed for easy maintenance. The Danish MoD apparently is miffed at how much time F35s spend in maintenance (granted they may have other reasons for buyer’s regret ).

        Gripen also does distributed dispersal well. Being tied to easy-to-target main airfields may end up costing F35s.

        The F35s stealth aspect is certainly nice but the Ukrainians are doing OK-ish with F16s. Better an available 4-4.5 gen fighter than a grounded/out-of-support/ground-whacked F35.

        1. Ken G Silver badge

          Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

          Stealth is/was oversold anyway. The Gripen and Meteor missile both have 2 way data links. All you need is a non-X band radar on the ground (or multiple X-band radars doing differential analysis) to pass both the targetting image and then get updates from the missiles as they close. The throw range of the Meteor launched at Mach 2 is going to be higher than the range of the AMRAAM at Mach 1.6 too.

        2. Cliffwilliams44 Silver badge

          Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

          Because they are using the F16 in a role it excels at! Air defense and intercept! The intercept role is mostly against non-stealth drones, so they are not engaging stealth aircraft. They are also being used for ground Attack & BAI (Battlefield Air Interdiction) so likely not going against advance, permanently emplaced SAMs. Therefor Stealth isn't a major requirement. You need stealth for deep penetration against advanced anti-air defenses, less so in air-to-air once within infrared/electro-optical sensor range. Once within gun range stealth is off the table! This is where the F16s (and also the F18s) capabilities shine. Though, in today's world, air-to-air engagements are rear.

        3. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

          Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

          The F35s stealth aspect is certainly nice but the Ukrainians are doing OK-ish with F16s.

          Bloody hell! You try telling the Ukrainians that? They can't even fly safely in their own airspace, let alone get to the front lines to engage in combat with any reasonable expectation of surviving. They're mostly using their F-16s to interdict missiles that are being fired at them, not in offensive strike missions. That does not meet any reasonable definition of "doing OK".

          Vaguely surviving while being able to intercept a limited percentage of the enemy's attacks on your civilians is not a good strategy for winning a war.

          Although F-35 might not help Ukraine a huge amount either. You have to walk before you can run. Israel can walk into Iran's relatively modern integrated air defence system (IADS) - because the IAF are bloody good, extremely well-trained, well-equipped and experienced. But Russia's IADS is a huge step up from that. Russia, started this war with over 1,000 frontline aircraft - and most of the kit (if not the best kit) - and can't even safely approach the front lines against Ukraine's IADS - which was two generations older than Russia's at the start - and has since been given some extremely modern upgrades.

          This is the environment that F-35 was designed for. But it'd still be hard to use it successfully, and you'd still need all the enablers like a tanker fleet, AWACS, offensive jamming, ELINT, good photo intel and the rest.

    2. ChrisC Silver badge

      Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

      For some interpretation of "alternative", sure. Gripen is an excellent design in terms of what it *was* designed to be, the slight issue here is that it clearly was *not* designed to be a true alternative for the F-35, either generally speaking (e.g. being a steatlth/low observable platform) or once you start looking at specific variants of the -35 (i.e. the B and C specs required for carrier operations)

      So yes, Gripen may well serve as a suitable alternative for F-35 in some scenarios, but sadly neither it nor any other platform (either alone or in combination with others) currently provides a complete alternative to hitching yourself to the F-35 wagon if the requirements you have from the F-35 literally are not met anywhere else. Our decision to abandon any hope of refitting QE and PoW with cats and traps, and thus sinking billions into carriers where the *only* fixed wing option for the forseeable future is F-35B, is looking increasingly burdensome...

      1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

        Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

        Our decision to abandon any hope of refitting QE and PoW with cats and traps, and thus sinking billions into carriers where the *only* fixed wing option for the forseeable future is F-35B, is looking increasingly burdensome...

        That decision was made for very good reasons. Basically you can generate more sorties per day from a given size of flight deck with STOVL operations than you can with CATOBAR. Plus you don't have the horrific pilot training requirements needed for arrested landings - which allowed us to operate a joint force of RAF and RNAS F-35B - where you can call on a squadron that's not done carrier ops in months and just fly them to the carrier and it'll all be fine. If you try that with arrested landings, you'd probably crash half the squadron, according to carrier pilots I've heard interviewed your landing skills start to become rusty after only a week or two of not doing one.

        However, the capability still exists. The carriers were designed with a lifetime of 50-60 years. They've been built big enough, and with enough space, to be changed and upgraded. They could add the angled flight deck necessary to CATOBAR operations, but it would take a long refit. It would reduce the number of sorties the carriers could make, but allow them more capability, such as having fixed wing AEW (airborne early warning) aircraft and tankers. This couldn't just be plugged and played into the existing carriers though, when the Coalition looked at doing it back in 2010. They were already being built, decisions had been taken as to what they were doing, and none of the long-lead time items had been ordered, such as catapults and arrestor gear. We had the EMCAT research project, which was stopped when we decided to go STOVL, but given how much trouble the US had with their electro-magnetic catapults I'm sure that would have delayed the ships being built by several years - hence the huge cost estimates to make the change halfway through the build. Hence why they didn't go through with it. The carriers were even given space by the engine rooms for steam generators of some kind, so they could go old skool, but that will have been filled with stuff by now.

        To point out though that France have ordered such goodies for PANG (their new carrier). And they're paying about $1.2 billion for the catapults and arrestor gear, and another $2.5 billion for just 3 E2D Hawkeye AEW aircraft. Those figures include for some support, plus training gear, but that's what we paid for one whole carrier! Another reason we went STOVL was price.

        Finally, during the Falklands war, there were days when flying ops would have been impossible in a CATOBAR carrier, because the weather was too awful. And the weather in the North Atlantic, Norwegian and North Seas can be almost as bad. Which is another reason the RN selected STOVL. It's a complex and nuanced decision. But given it takes multiple years to procure a new naval fighter, if we decide to take that step, we can change the carriers in time to be ready for the new planes.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

          > Basically you can generate more sorties per day from a given size of flight deck with STOVL operations than you can with CATOBAR

          You absolutely cannot and only idiots are still repeating this piece of BAe propaganda. The American carriers spank the QEs at sorties per day and it’s not even close, and the Americans can sustain it too. As was proven on the last deployment where they managed only 18 in 24 hours. The Americans can do 18 in an hour.

          1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

            Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

            You absolutely cannot and only idiots are still repeating this piece of BAe propaganda. The American carriers spank the QEs at sorties per day and it’s not even close

            The UK carriers are designed to be able to sustain 120 sorties a day. That's with an air-group of 48 though, probably 36 F-35 and 12 helicopters. We've not tested that, so claiming the QE's are at full operating capacity isn't true, despite them putting out that press release last year.

            I think the US are designed for 160-170. Because their carriers are bigger. As I said, you get more sorties per area of flight deck with STOVL ops than with CATOBAR. This is because you don't have to set up for catapult shots, and you generally don't do landings and take-offs at the same time.

            Whether the QEs can actually do 120 a day can't be known, because nobody has ever operated more than 24 fixed wing aircraft off a STOVL carrier, as was done last year.

            My suspicion is the LM will fuck around so long integrating weapons that we'll not buy any more F-35 until we get a few replacements for early ones in the 2030s - meanwhile the RAF will have given up their Bs to the Navy and whatever money was allocated is spent on Tempest or maybe a few extra Tranche 4 Typhoon. At which point, short of an actual war, it'll be too disruptive of training to put a full air-group of 36 F-35 on a carrier. But equally we might order those 25 F-35B in the budget at some point in order to get a favour out of Trump - even without the integration of weapons we want.

        2. ChrisC Silver badge

          Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

          Remind me again which fixed-wing AWACS assets we can operate from QE/PoW, because as good as we are at shoehorning at least the bare bones capabilities into rotary wing airframes, if you're serious about operating a carrier group in areas where you can't rely on either land-based AWACS support, or carrier-based support from an ally, then being able to operate your own fixed-wing assets gives you more flexibility as to when and where you're able to operate without increasing the risks to both your airframes *and* ships.

          So comparing the cost of a few Hawkeyes to the cost of an entire carrier is slightly meaningless *unless* said carrier could operate said aircraft. We can't, so it wouldn't matter if the US were paying us to take Hawkeyes off their hands, we still wouldn't be able to put them to use on the carriers we did spend our money on...

          And yes, there are some advantages to STOVL, but they don't require that you design your entire carrier strategy around operating *only* STOVL. We did it in the past because prior short-sighted governments decided that having proper carriers wasn't something the UK should be doing any more, and we were fortunate enough to have people in positions of sufficient power to get away with development of the "through deck cruisers" (because under NO circumstances should we be even so much as hinting at the fact that we were still trying to maintain any level of carrier capability) without which events in the South Atlantic would have gone very differently, but that doesn't mean STOVL is always the better choice, nor that it's the choice we ought to be making just because of how successfully we made it work when we needed to do so - remember that we used to have some fairly decent capabilities here, and were responsible for having come up with some of the fundamental concepts of modern carrier ops, so it's not as if we've always been firmly and uniquely wedded to STOVL.

          As for the possibility that one or both of the carriers will be rebuilt for CATOBAR... I mean, sure, it *could* happen, I just don't see it actually happening, at least not within the 30-odd years I still hope and expect to have ahead of me.

        3. JLV Silver badge

          Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

          What you also don’t get from VSTOL carriers is the ability to field long-range/long-endurance fixed wing aircraft. Like, you know, ASW or AWACS stuff. Choppers and VSTOL aircraft aren’t super suited for that.

      2. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

        Well as the RAF have repeatedly demonstrated, it’s the plane and pilot who make the difference between success and failure…much to the astonishment of our web footed friends across the pond…

    3. MarkMLl

      Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

      Noting of course that the Gripen- as manufactured by Saab- still uses an American engine and they've said they're not changing that.

      However nobody seems to have picked up the fact that Saab's commitment to supply full technical information to Canada would obviously include the details of the engine interfaces, with the Gripen using the Ada programming language with which Bombardier is apparently familiar.

      And that Bombardier already uses Rolls Royce engines.

      And that the GlobalEye aircraft being offered to Canada as part of the package are based on a Bombardier airframe with Rolls Royce engines.

      I don't think that there's been anything definitive yet saying that Canada will buy Gripens, but TBH I'd be surprised if they didn't. And in that context the money that they've just put on the table to allow Lockheed to buy long-leadtime parts for another batch of F-35s does not necessarily mean that those F-35s will be purchased by Canada.

      1. JLV Silver badge

        Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

        We’ve (Canada) just committed to buying a 2nd small set of F35s: so 16 + 14. Who gets the full 88 procurement is undecided.

        1. MarkMLl

          Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

          Are you absolutely sure? Canada has put a substantial amount of money on the table to cover Lockheed's purchase of long-lead-time components, but I've seen nothing published which says that those parts could not be transferred to some other suc^H^H^H purchaser.

          -----8<-----

          “Yes, the government is paying a small amount in order to have options,” Carney replied. “That’s useful for our defense and to have options in our negotiations with the Americans.”

          Such ‘long-lead’ funding typically refers to advance procurement for components that must be ordered well ahead of final assembly. This step is used to preserve production timing and keep delivery options open.

          ----->8-----

          https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/carney-confirms-canada-payments-14-additional-f-35a

      2. Ken G Silver badge

        Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

        I believe Saab did a design proposal for a Gripen using a Snecma M88 too.

    4. Caver_Dave Silver badge

      Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

      The best alternative IMHO was the Harrier, but the UK sold them off to the US Marines!

      Lightening, Concord, Harrier, Vulcan ... the list continues of UK innovation (sometimes with partners) that were well ahead of the curve, but the UK decided to either drop or not continue to develop.

      1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

        Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

        Caver_Dave,

        We sold our Harriers to the US marines for spares. The US Marines are withdrawing them from service in June this year.

        The Navy wanted to upgrade to fleet carriers from the small ASW-focused carriers that were the Invincibles.

        That meant a much larger aircraft and the capability to go supersonic - so a totally new aircraft. As Harrier was so successful, we started a project, to partner with the US Marines. But when their needs got folded into F-35 we either had to join or go it alone. Nobody else was interested in a new STOVL aircraft. It would obviously have been cheaper if we'd avoided stealth, but stealth is a really useful force-multiplier for a relatively small carrier air-group that has to fight away from home, and against an enemy fighting with home (and probably numbers) advantage.

        To put this in context, I think we've spent somewhere around £5 billion on Tempest so far. That's probably including Taranis (a stealth drone and test-bed from ten years ago) - and includes the cost of the prototype they're building now, but there's more in the budget for next few years). When Japan joined the Tempest program in 2023, they allocated about $9 billion, to be spent by 2030 - just on the R&D and ramping up industry to start building them in the 2030s. So between us, Japan and Italy that's something like £20 billion to be spent before receiving anything but the test aircraft. Our R&D contribution to F-35 was only £2 billion, from memory. Double that, to account for inflation over 25 years.

        Tempest is also using some of the kit from Eurofighter, like the ECRS2 radar - which cost another few billion to develop, and is only coming into service now. But I doubt we'd have got much change from £10 billion in R&D for a super-Harrier, which maybe Italy and Japan might have bought. BAE wouldn't have got the stealth experience from participating in the F-35 program, and we'd only be buying maybe 50 of the aircraft at £150m-£200m each. Build 100 of a type that cost £10bn to develop and the R&D cost of each is £100m before you've bought your first wheel...

        If we can sell Tempest to a couple of buyers, and we buy 400 aircraft between the 3 partners - we've at least got the R&D costs down below £40m per aircraft. Although the aircraft itself will be more expensive than a non stealthy super-harrier would.

        1. Spazturtle Silver badge

          Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

          Tempest is an air superiority fighter, so expect it to cost around £300m. Compared to current air superiority fighters like the Eurofighter at €250m or the F-22 at $350m.

          Prices listed as total price rather than unit price since unit price can be misleading.

          For example F-35 unit price is ~$40m but the total price is ~$100m, so if you are buying a new F-35 you are paying ~$100m but if you are replacing one that your crashed you only pay ~$40m since you can transfer the $60m maintenance contract and R&D licencing fees from the crashed one.

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

            > since you can transfer the $60m maintenance contract and R&D licencing fees from the crashed one

            If you can recover the license sticker from the bottom

      2. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: There's a great alternative to the F35

        Remember until the early to mid 1960s the UK spent circa 10% of its GDP on Defense, we now are struggling to find circa 2.4%…

  3. MrBanana

    eBay - he's right!

    Damn it he's right, there are no F-35 buy it now listings on ebay.nl at the moment. Maybe I'll set a search trigger for ebay.ru.

    1. Casca Silver badge

      Re: eBay - he's right!

      Have you tried Temu?

      1. ParlezVousFranglais Silver badge

        Re: eBay - he's right!

        Complete with fake CE markings?...

        1. Casca Silver badge

          Re: eBay - he's right!

          Of course. Cant sell anything without the CE markings

    2. Blazde Silver badge

      Re: eBay - he's right!

      It's not uncommon for them to briefly available on the seabed if you're willing to front salvage costs. Just keep eyes on the mainstream press for good deals.

    3. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: eBay - he's right!

      Suggest putting a Request for Quotation on Alibaba…

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Admin account...

    Username: pilot

    Password: TopGun26

    ?

    1. Aladdin Sane Silver badge

      Re: Admin account...

      Username: password

      Password: password

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: Admin account...

        What not:

        Username: guest

        Password: guest

        1. Aladdin Sane Silver badge

          Re: Admin account...

          Now I need to change my wi-fi set up. Thanks.

      2. Snapper

        Re: Admin account...

        Oh God, don't remind me.

        Picking up a prescription from a chemist and the keyboard under the screen that was facing away from me had a credit-card sized card tucked into the top row.

        With the info side facing the customer.

        Login: User

        Password: password1234

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Admin account...

      Username: admin

      No password.

      Please remember to change it on first login.

  5. MarkMLl

    Servers etc.

    "According to a video published by Lockheed Martin in 2017, the F-35 Lightning II is updated through the Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS)."

    AIUI the ALIS servers were replaced by ODIN about four years ago.

    However it's important to note that this is reportedly just the server at the base, which still needs a Lockheed backend: I note the reports that the UK has a logistics centre at Sealand and don't know the extent to which there is a *single* Lockheed backend and the extent to which this is penetrated by the Pentagon.

    AIUI the actual computer which attaches to the F-35 is a Panasonic Toughbook, with an (optical?) FireWire interface implemented as a PCMCIA card.

    1. seven of five Silver badge
      Joke

      Maybe

      > is a Panasonic Toughbook, with an (optical?) FireWire interface [...]

      had the (Boeing) X-32 won the contract, the interface would have been FireBall

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: Maybe

        Surely it (the F35) has n OBD-II port?

        1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge
          Trollface

          Re: Maybe

          Does that mean Rafale uses SCART?

      2. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

        Re: FireBall

        you forgot the last part...

        FIREBALL XL5

        Yes, it shows my age but I don't care.

        1. Snapper

          Re: FireBall

          Venus............

  6. KittenHuffer Silver badge

    ALIS? ALIS?

    Who the fsck is ALIS? - KBW

  7. snee
    Trollface

    Won't be long until someone drops a ROM on XDA

  8. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

    Does it need Anti-Jailbreak?

    Since there is no Apple-Store or Google Store which needs such protection for their money, there is no need for such extreme measures. Encryption, maybe with TPM, should be enough for such cases. Maybe a dongle, which you can add after delivery. But once the OS is running, just plug in your keyboard, and log on to the console? No reason to prevent that.

  9. af108
    Go

    Build your own planes domestically

    It's almost like each country should build their own military aircraft domestically and share nothing about them with the rest of the world.

    What's that, they can't? Oh ok we'll have to rely on America then.

    Before you downvote this 1. I'm British (minus the "we're the best at everything" false pride bullshit) and 2. We haven't come up with anything better than an F-22 and neither has anyone else really.

    1. Like a badger Silver badge

      Re: Build your own planes domestically

      Some F35 have been assembled outside the US. But there's a difference between building a knock down kit of somebody else's plane to designing and making it yourself. But that's difficult, designing a modern jet engine from scratch is very difficult, as is the research on stealth, avionics, weapons systems for the plane itself. Making turbine blades alone is nigh on rocket science, then there's unsexy areas that need deep expertise like undercarriage, fuel systems and the rest.

      France has long had a "F*** off the rest of you" approach to defence procurement. It has worked up to a point, but they've got neither F35s they've bought, nor a credible local alternative, as their defence budget only goes so far. The Rafale is a very good aircraft, but it isn't as modern or as capable as the F35. The Typhoon is at least a tri-nation project, but still ain't an F35. I can't see Europe managing to build their next attack aircraft as a true European project, because there's no cure for the French Bloody Mindedness (FBM) problem.

      1. af108

        Re: Build your own planes domestically

        @Like a badger, I feel like we're making the same point in a round about way.

        My main point was that it's somewhat ironic talking about whether a plane can be jailbroken. Whilst simultaneously acknowledging that reliance on other countries is almost a pre-requisite to being able to produce such machines.

        Whatever your view of America they are almost always going to be involved in one capacity or another, which IMO is a bigger weakness than just whether its software can be jailbroken (which in itself is hypothetical, for all of the reasons given in the article and more besides!).

      2. Ken Shabby Silver badge
        Childcatcher

        Re: Build your own planes domestically

        As has been previously pointed out, the French copy nobody and nobody copies the French

      3. Snapper

        Re: Build your own planes domestically

        Do you mean 'Tempest' is Tri-nation project, as Typhoon was Quad-nation project (UK, Germany, Italy and Spain)

    2. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

      Re: Build your own planes domestically

      af101,

      Not everyone can indigenously produce a top line aircraft. But you can partner up. France has decided to go it alone with Rafale. The UK chose to partner up for Eurofighter and F-35. There are pros and cons to both options. But even the French decided that a 6th gen aircraft needed partners, for the development money, if nothing else. And yet they've still not got a single stealth aircraft, and FCAS isn't likely to be in service until the 2040s (if the program can survive that long), while Tempest is on course to have a flying demonstrator next year, and hopefully go into low-rate production in the early 2030s. So actually operational by 2035.

      1. Aladdin Sane Silver badge

        Re: Build your own planes domestically

        France were part of Eurofighter at the beginning, but they then decided to France their way out of the project, much like what is happening with FCAS.

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: Build your own planes domestically

          Isn't that what France has done on every joint European fighter project since Louis Blériot ?

          1. Aladdin Sane Silver badge

            Re: Build your own planes domestically

            Depends on whether you classify the SEPECAT Jaguar as a tactical fighter or just an attack aircraft.

            1. RPF

              Re: Build your own planes domestically

              Jaguar was originally designed as a trainer, unbelievably.

              1. Aladdin Sane Silver badge

                Re: Build your own planes domestically

                Yep, Dassault then partnered with Dornier to produce the Alpha Jet and Hawker Siddeley developed the Hawk, both of which proved to be capable light attack aircraft as well.

                1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

                  Re: Build your own planes domestically

                  > Hawker Siddeley developed the Hawk, both of which proved to be capable light attack aircraft as well.

                  Nonsense they are entirely innocent training aircraft as detailed in the end user certificate

                  That $MilitaryJunta$ that we sold them to is using them to bomb their own people is just an example of extremely realistic training.

                  1. Aladdin Sane Silver badge

                    Re: Build your own planes domestically

                    The repeated use of the phrase "machine tools" in The Night Manager did make me think of Bill Hicks' rant on the subject.

        2. mantavani

          Re: Build your own planes domestically

          Part of the reason why Concorde made its way from the drawing board was that the contract penalty provisions were sufficiently tight to prevent either the French from Francing or the British from Britishing. We chose to throw our domestic rocketry into the scrapheap to compensate, somehow the French kept theirs.

    3. Antifa - Ost

      Re: Build your own planes domestically

      Some countries have other countries as friends and they work, discover, build and have fun together, while shattin on Mother Russia. A foreign concept, huh?

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: Build your own planes domestically

        Definitely a foreign concept to Trump and Co…

        But well understood by preview generations…

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    If this is true then where is the SPEAR3 integration and the rest of Block 4?

    The reality is that only LM can work on the software.

    1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

      The Dutch defence minister is talking about the nuclear option. If you need it, and the US screw around, then break glass to jailbreak aircraft. At which point you're in breach of contract and on your own. Of course, so are they - the relationship is dead and everything goes to court. You fight this immediate war then buy new, non-US, aircraft.

      Hence Meteor, Spear 3, plus Norway's NSM and the US JASSM, LRASM, small-diameter bomb, JAGM and AARGM are all in integration hell as well.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        When, in the words of General Buck Turgidson, "You're going to have to answer to the Coca-Cola Oracle company"

        1. Fr. Ted Crilly Silver badge

          Sorry, you mean Colonel Bat Guano

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        > talking about the nuclear option

        > You fight this immediate war then buy new, non-US, aircraft

        You fight this immediate war then ride the giant mutant cockroaches

        1. Aladdin Sane Silver badge

          Don't threaten me with a good time.

  11. tatatata

    Ah great. Now I have root on my F35. And what's next? Let's see. ps -ef ? dir/w? or 2nk3kewf 990? And what happens then? What about the fail-safes in the different subsystems? The simplistic view of a rooted phone is totally inadequate for a fighter.

    Anyway, even without rooting the plane, we'll still be able to shoot-down a $250 drone with a 10 million dollar rocket.

    1. cd Silver badge

      And then the pilot seat ejects...

    2. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge
      Devil

      Nobody's allowed access, lest they discover F-35 actually runs on Systemd OS.

      1. Throatwarbler Mangrove Silver badge
        Windows

        Windows for Warplanes

        1. Uncle Slacky Silver badge
          Trollface

          Now with added Copilot?

          1. Rich 11

            Or a reboxed Clippy.

            "I see you're trying to shoot down a Mig-29. Can I help send it a memo?"

          2. Alumoi Silver badge

            I thought the F-35 was a single seater.

            1. Rich 11

              Hopefully there's a trainer version, but perhaps they decided that modifying the airframe for an extra seat would be too expensive and they just added an intro module to the flight software.

              "Congratulations on your purchase of the state-of-the-art F-35A. America, oo-yah!. Please step through the following pre-flight checks before pressing Engine Start."

    3. Roland6 Silver badge

      > The simplistic view of a rooted phone is totally inadequate for a fighter.

      Whilst simplistic, it conveys the message as many have heard about rooting/jailbreaking phones to unlock them and flash a custom ROM. However, people also understand it to be “technical” and best done by those with relevant experience.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Not just a problem with F-35

    Locked down IP is a problem all across military systems.

    For example, the Pentagon had to reverse engineer the GBU-57 bunker buster bomb to make more, because they never got design info because it was proprietary.

    See https://www.twz.com/air/new-gbu-57-massive-ordnance-penetrator-parts-reverse-engineered-from-atacms-ballistic-missile-tech

    1. PB90210 Silver badge

      Re: Not just a problem with F-35

      But you can't do this with an F35 because of the clause on page 94 of the T&C's... oh no, you mean you didn't read them all before you clicked 'accept'!

      1. seven of five Silver badge
        Joke

        Re: Not just a problem with F-35

        Yes, but no: That clause is only sort of printed on page 94. Actually, it is done in VERY fine print on the edge of said page. The inside one...

  13. steviebuk Silver badge

    Needs to go back to the manufacturer I'm afraid.

    This is why we need right to repair. The fact you can have military kit out in the field and have to say "Sorry, can we just stop fighting for the moment, the manufacturer has said we can't repair this ourselves and it must go back to the manufacturer."

    Like like the cunts at John Deere.

    1. af108

      Re: Needs to go back to the manufacturer I'm afraid.

      Bit of a weak analogy. Aircraft are incredibly complex and I'm wondering exactly who you think can just repair it?? It's not like you can take it down to Halfords!

      1. ChoHag Silver badge

        Re: Needs to go back to the manufacturer I'm afraid.

        They have these things called "soldiers". Some of them are good at shooting, some of them are good at thinking, and some of them know which end a spanner to point at the enemy.

        1. Aladdin Sane Silver badge

          Re: Needs to go back to the manufacturer I'm afraid.

          If a soldier is in the position where they need to repair an F-35 then some WAFU is having a very bad time sleeping in a trench.

      2. steviebuk Silver badge

        Re: Needs to go back to the manufacturer I'm afraid.

        Its not. Because you have engineers on the ships or at the airfields. What if the plane is on the ship and there is a large fault that still states "We can't supply you with schematics or official parts. You need to send it back to the factory".

    2. JLV Silver badge

      Re: Needs to go back to the manufacturer I'm afraid.

      I believe the US Navy recently had some issues on their ships’ ovens. Only manufacturer staff were allowed to service them.

      https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/the-navys-newest-problem-flushing-the-toilet

      .. similar issues with their loos.

      All other things reminding equal that level of lawyerese and bilking is another reason to change vendor country.

  14. This post has been deleted by its author

  15. This post has been deleted by its author

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    You wouldn't steal a

    Jet plane. (Danger Zone theme intensifies)

    1. Aladdin Sane Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: You wouldn't steal a

      Danger Zone? You casual. Real fans have the theme from Firefox playing in their heads.

      1. Fr. Ted Crilly Silver badge

        Re: You wouldn't steal a

        'You must only think in Russian...'

    2. You aint sin me, roit Silver badge
      Pirate

      Re: You wouldn't steal a

      Tom Cruise would.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    My take from this article is that if you want yours jailbroken, you've got to do it yourself. You can't just order a second-hand one on Backmarket that has already been rooted by its slightly dodgy current owner who can't provide an original proof of purchase..

  18. Marty McFly Silver badge
    Black Helicopters

    Integrated Kill Switch

    There is ample precedent for that thinking. Look up the history of the F-14 Tomcat, and who our allies once were. The US ended up physically shredding retired F-14's rather than risk some of their parts going on the international black market to support airframes in what has become an unfriendly country.

    "Kill Switch" is an accurate technical description. But "Stay Friendly" may be a better name.

    Icon because it has an aircraft!

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Fit For Purpose?....

    Quote: "The barrier to entry for researchers and hackers is simply too high for military hardware."

    Quote: ".....fears that the US could remotely disable....."

    No "barrier to entry" then for the "kill switch".................or the next update..........or the next hacker???

    Which is it?

    I think we should be told!

    By the way, what happened to the two F-35 aircraft stranded away from home....one in India, one in Japan?

    Is the F-35 "not fit for purpose"?

    I think we should be told!

    1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

      Re: Fit For Purpose?....

      The stranded aircraft were fixed, and flew back to the carrier. We were told, at the time.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Fit For Purpose?....

        But we did manage to retake India ?

  20. Andrew Williams

    Kill switch?

    Does it have one of them that the Yankees can use if Europe decides to bounce.

  21. rgjnk
    Boffin

    Not that easy

    Been there and done it with OEM level resources and better documentation & familiarity than your average end user nation state would get. It's a very very specialist task, even within a specialist field (in part because it's not usually necessary) and doing it on the actual platform is asking for disaster.

    And that's assuming anyone jumping in would have a clue what they were looking at, avionics isn’t based on the standard BSPs or bootloaders or schedulers or open source. They likely wouldn't even recognise how the processor was configured compared to the standard off the shelf initialisation 99.9% of people use.

    It's one thing to fiddle on a rehost and have it work 'well enough' after patching, doing it onto the actual avionics will likely work just well enough to break it, or potentially just trip over some hostile anti reverse engineering features that everyone just loves to put into their special military systems that run a risk of being captured & analysed by nation-state level resources. It's not a PlayStation or a phone.

    And you'd be very very brave to trust an unofficially patched aircraft software load. It takes long enough to get a proper one out the door, especially if you actually want it mostly bug free.

    The Dutch can make all the claims they like but it just isn't that easy. And they haven't even got a relevant domestic OEM or supplier to help out.

    As for a remote kill switch, seems deeply unlikely, too much risk. Something that nobbles people operating outside the official supply chain after a while? Quite possible, and that can be very sneaky, under the pretense of ensuring the users are operating correctly with OEM support.

  22. Claptrap314 Silver badge

    Sound and fury

    You're going to have to convince me that Europe is willing to foot it's entire military cost before I'm going to credit such vaporous claims.

    Sovereignty starts with being able to stand alone in a protracted war. If you have to depend on the support of others, your "sovereignty" rests upon the good graces of your military betters.

    Europe remains heavily subsidized by the US. Inasmuch as we remain concerned about Russian "adventurism", there is some justification.

  23. Ian Johnston Silver badge

    There is bound to be an Israeli company which can do this, because there always is. Or you can install LineageOS on them if you are willing to go through the 3,400 step installation process.

  24. schofiel

    Yeah, but....

    ... does it run DOOM?

  25. MonsieurTM

    ALIS is custom software written by the lowest paid in a rush. Of course it is full of bugs. That's why only the Israelis have access and they need to keep schtum for good reasons.

    It is a sick joke to claim custom update software is better than using an open source distro suitably hardened. What? Two underpaid over worked Devs can beat the thousands of man-yeats in a decent distro?

    Hubris on the largest scale.

    And don't say it doesn't matter as the airbases are secured with armed guards. What if soe traitor lands an F-35 in North Korea or Russia?

  26. PickteamDT

    Mandatory updates

    I hate it when I'm flying at 600mph and suddenly the screen says it time for a mandatory software update.

  27. osxtra

    Typical Scenario

    "We're hot. Target acquired. Control, request permission to engage."

    "Permission granted."

    "Fire!"

    (Moments later): "Hey, why did I just eject, and why is Jimmy in the next plane over strafing me?"

  28. Joe Gurman Silver badge

    I'll believe that this blowhard....

    ....can "jailbreak" an F-35 as soon as he shows me he cn jailbreak my iPhone from the other side of an ocean. Not brick, but fully jailbreak, and demonstare by inserting his own code.

  29. herman Silver badge

    Aircraft upgrades

    There are lots of aircraft upgrade programs going on. If necessary, some parts in the F35 can be replaced with other parts. I won't call it a jailbreak, but for simple folks who never worked on mil schtuff it is perhaps a good analogy. Been there. Done that. Nuf sed.

  30. Ossi

    He doesn't have a clue

    The fact that this guy thinks that Rolls Royce build the engines for the F35 tells me that he hasn't got a clue what he's talking about. It's all the just the usual right wing populist nonsense.

  31. Henry Wertz 1 Gold badge

    Gotta be honest

    Gotta be honest, I'm assuming you need physical access, and probably non-standard (or some military/aviation standard) connector rather than USB (possibly RS-232 serial on it's own connector, or possibly something else). But I doubt there's any security at all past that point, that there's no 'jailbreak' in the IPhone sense, just loading your own software on there. ... Which is still going to be difficult due to lack of source code. But I doubt they've locked it down like Apple to actively prevent doing anything with the software.

  32. jpennycook Bronze badge

    glamping

    > can't go buy an F-35 on eBay

    and that's why you can't stay in one on the Isle of Wight (unlike helicopters and a submarine)

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