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back to article Enforcing piracy policy earned helpdesk worker death threats

Welcome to another installment of On Call, The Register's weekly reader-contributed column that tells your tech support tales. This week, meet a reader we'll Regomize as "Henry" who shared a chilling story from his time delivering internal desktop support for a major internet service provider. This is a story that doesn't …

  1. Michael H.F. Wilkinson Silver badge

    Chilling story

    Glad I have never been in any such situation. In the Netherlands any large employer needs to have a health and safety officer or ombuds person to approach if you feel unsafe. Our university has a confidential advisor that can also be reached for these kind of issues. I have once referred someone to this advisor (not for violent threats, fortunately), and they were of great help. Rules here in the Netherlands can be found here:

    https://business.gov.nl/regulations/staff/health-and-safety-at-work/

    1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

      Re: Chilling story

      Don't want to sound too cynical, but from experience in the UK this is just box ticking.

      These roles are designed as feel good factor and offer reassurance for workers / students that if they face something bad, there will be help.

      But reality is that there is no help and it is just false hope at best.

      1. Jeff 11

        Re: Chilling story

        My inner cynic doesn't think you're entirely wrong - particularly in dysfunctional orgs that will have political trouble if they let go of key or overly senior staff.

        But in the large part there are still big productivity, financial, legal and PR incentives for orgs to root and boot out the crazies who damage the business by sapping the sanity or safety of their colleagues. Failing to act on death threats, especially if it gets escalated to the police, is at worst a big legal risk and at best evidence for a constructive dismissal claim.

        1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

          Re: Chilling story

          The assumption that organisations will “root and boot the crazies” because of productivity or PR incentives is naïve.

          In large institutions especially, incentives are not aligned with fairness. They are aligned with stability and liability control.

          And the whole “safety/ombuds/confidential adviser” setup has a built-in conflict of interest: they’re employed by the institution, answer to the institution, and their job is to manage institutional risk. They don’t represent the complainant. They represent the organisation.

          If the problematic person is senior, revenue-generating, politically connected, or simply hard to replace, removing them is costly and destabilising. Containing the complainant is cheaper and easier. That’s the rational outcome under the incentive structure.

          UK is also in institutional decline. You'll have hard time gaining interest of the Police. Employees typically don't have means to legally challenge corporation and even if they do - it's a process that takes months and years and at best they'll get modest settlement that will not make up for lost time, opportunities and health.

          That route is basically a fool's errand.

          1. David Hicklin Silver badge

            Re: Chilling story

            > Employees typically don't have means to legally challenge corporation

            That is where a decent and effective Union is priceless.

            1. Eclectic Man Silver badge

              Re: Chilling story

              Years ago a gay friend of mine was subjected to some severe homophobic abuse at work. This culminated in him arriving at work one morning to find a medium sized hunting knife embedded in a piece of wood left on his desk in his supposedly locked office.

              I had previously had some dealings with a local solicitors' practice that did free work for poor people and would do a 30 minute free consultation before taking on a client and advised my friend to ask them for help as his company seemed not to be taking things at all seriously. They did a 'no win - no fee' deal for a percentage of whatever compensation they got him.

              Both solicitor and my friend were happy with the amount (six figures before the decimal point) - he was able to retire early and frankly looked 'fully 20 years younger'* afterwards.

              * 'The Importance of Being Ernest', Lady Bracknell on a recently widowed friend of hers. (Oscar Wilde)

      2. Antron Argaiv Silver badge
        Childcatcher

        Re: Chilling story

        Even more cynical in the US.

        Your only resort is "Human Resources", whose one and only job is to keep the Company out of court. They may very well decide that YOU are the problem, and the easiest way to keep you safe, and the Company out of court, is to send you packing.

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: Chilling story

          HR's job is not to keep the company out of court. That's up to the corporate lawyers.

          HR's job is to protect the company from the employees .... including the corporate lawyers.

        2. Zoopy

          Re: Chilling story

          Is reporting this to the police not an option?

          It's considerate to let an employer know as well, but they're not government nor law enforcement.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Chilling story

        Ticking the UK box that the aggrieved party does not have a firearm.

        Unlike anyone one of ‘Merica’s 400-500m freedom guns.

        USA population 342m.

      4. Dabooka

        Re: Chilling story

        I appreciate the cynicism but that in itself is part of the problem; for organisational change to occur folk need to speak out.

        I have been the investigating officer in several instances and two things I note are prolonged history where quicker intervention would have helped, having a cynical approach stops people coming forward sooner. We take it very seriously and it is not lip service

  2. Korev Silver badge
    WTF?

    "He would tell anyone who listened that the next time he saw me, he would put a bullet in my face," Henry told On Call.

    Henry felt this colleague was capable of violence, so he did not take the matter lightly.

    Thankfully, soon after the suspension ended, his antagonist left the business and although the experience rattled Henry, he had no reason to ponder it for years after.

    "Left the business" implies there was an element of choice about it. Why wasn't he fired and the matter reported to the Police?

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Part of the answer might be in this "He would tell anyone who listened that the next time he saw me, he would put a bullet in my face,"

      It seems the threats were made to 3rd parties and it would be necessary to get one of them to confirm it HR and the police. They might not be prepared to do that.

      There's also the matter of getting threats like that taken seriously - he might just laugh it off as not really meaning it. It's worth remembering that when a bomb threat was made to Robin Hood Airport the culprit was let off on those grounds. It's also worth remembering that when I suggested that shouldn't have happened I was downvoted here.

      1. NXM Silver badge

        Threatening to kill someone is an offense all on its own in Blighty. Very bad.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          It still needs someone prepared to give evidence of that and if nobody was willing to do tyhat you have a problem. If Henry did it himself it would be his word against the bully's. A willing 3rd party witness would be needed.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          American spelling...

          ... is an offence too. Very, very bad. Bigly.

      2. teebie

        The down votes probably came because the story you are talking about was not an actual bomb threat Robin Hood airport - that tweet was not a credible expression of intent to blow up the airport.

        When they reported the tweet the employees of the airport said that they did not believe it to be an actual threat.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          "they did not believe it to be an actual threat."

          And that against Henry was believed to be an actual threat? The response to Henry might well have been the same until it was validated by subsequent events. Having a bomb threat validated by subsequent events isn't the best course of action. I suppose my point of view might be influenced by having had my former place of work bombed twice, once with limited success (windows broken etc) and once, after I'd left, successfully. And burnt down with what might have been a fire bomb.

      3. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge
        Stop

        There's also the matter of getting threats like that taken seriously - he might just laugh it off as not really meaning it. It's worth remembering that when a bomb threat was made to Robin Hood Airport the culprit was let off on those grounds. It's also worth remembering that when I suggested that shouldn't have happened I was downvoted here.

        The defendant was let off because the jury determined it wasn't an actual threat but something which should have been laughed off.

        The so-called threat was merely a figure of speech like "I swear I'll kill the next person who interrupts my lunch" and not a credible and actual threat. The jury recognised that, found as such.

        You probably got downvoted because you refused to recognise or accept that by those who could.

  3. jake Silver badge

    Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

    Death threats are actionable by the authorities, never mind the namby-pamby corporate management.

    It would do us all well to mention jurisdiction when responding to this one. I'm in California.

    1. Prst. V.Jeltz Silver badge

      Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

      Theres a large proportion of Americans who think they have their "Free speech" to say whatever the hell they want , and a growing number in the UK

      You can identify these people in the comments under any story about police activity by their comment "too busy arresting people for hurty words"

      1. ForthIsNotDead
        Thumb Down

        Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

        People _can_ say whatever the hell they want. However, freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences.

        1. Prst. V.Jeltz Silver badge

          Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

          I find that well known and oft cited soundbite to be utterly meaningless and redundant

          You're free to chop a policemans head off as long as you are prepared to deal with the consequences

          Whats the difference?

          You threaten ti kill somneone - you find yourself in court

          you steal a car - you find yourself in court

          whats the difference?

          One has this god given "free speech" right, the other does not but the cause and effect are the same .

          I'd just like to clarify for those not keeping up that I am all for prosecution of hate speech etc and NOT of the opinion i should be able to yell "Fire" in a theatre and be free from consequence

          1. Evil Auditor Silver badge

            Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

            I find that well known and oft cited soundbite to be utterly meaningless and redundant

            I don't think it is meaningless nor redundant. But it's more difficult to clearly define "consequences" than what is already covered within criminal law for hate speech, instigating violence etc. For example, if I spread racist shit, which may still be within legal limits and not punishable, I might face consequences of losing my job, my reasonable friends, being rejected from doing business... and at least in my jurisdiction it will be difficult for the racist shit spreader to win an anti-discrimination law suit under this circumstances.

            1. Prst. V.Jeltz Silver badge

              Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

              So there may be consequences even for the not quite illegal racist shit

              ok .

              Well hows that different from not having "free speech" ?

              Or to get back to basics what IS free speech? it seems to differe in a lot of people minds , which was my original point .

              One definition is "The right to criticize the government without being thrown in a gulag"

              Although they seem to have gotten around this one recently by declaring anyone protesting the genocide in Gaza as a "terrorist" - and indeed locking them up.

              1. O'Reg Inalsin Silver badge

                Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

                It's different because at work, other people can't escape. Gratuitously insulting people or baiting conflict could cause people to become unproductive or leave. There is no magic pre-formable answer for what exactly is "right", but respectful behavior and dignity do actually exist.

              2. Dave314159ggggdffsdds

                Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

                What a perfect example of the far right's tendency to criticise 'restricting mah free speech' every time they're stopped from supporting overtly racist terrorists, and pretend all they did was reasonably criticise something. Palestine Action are a violent neo-Nazi terror group. If you don't openly support them, you can get away with all but the most blatant incitement to antisemitic hatred in the guise of antizionism.

                1. sabroni Silver badge

                  Re: Palestine Action are a violent neo-Nazi terror group

                  Really? That's not what the courts say. But then, they were looking at the facts, not trying to excuse genocide.

              3. John Robson Silver badge

                Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

                "Or to get back to basics what IS free speech?"

                In the US the courts have a handy dandy reference:

                https://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/educational-resources/about-educational-outreach/activity-resources/what-does-free-speech-mean

                To which must be added "anything the toddler in chief says"

            2. doublelayer Silver badge

              Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

              I think the problem with the statement is that free speech does mean freedom from a specific set of consequences. I can speak ill of the government without being arrested or likely from being fired from a government job, depending on exactly what that is. That's a consequence that does affect people in places without freedom of speech and one we generally want to avoid. Saying "freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences" doesn't convey the message, because we have to admit that it does prevent some of the possible consequences.

              I say that while agreeing with the spirit of that line. The people who this line is used against are often those who think they have a right to speak or post wherever they want and demand that people listen, and most of them are completely uninterested in offering anything similar, sometimes including the "can't be arrested" version, to people who disagree with them. We need a way of explaining this which isn't incorrect when you read it literally and doesn't require a few more sentences of clarification to convey the message. I'm not sure the consequences line can do it.

              1. M.V. Lipvig Silver badge

                Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

                Let me make a clear statement on that then, and this isn't aimed at you specifically.

                "Your right to speak does not guarantee I have to listen, and your rights end where my nose begins."

                That means one may say what they want but nobody has to, or can be made to, listen to or take them seriously.

                1. jake Silver badge

                  Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

                  "or take them seriously."

                  In fact, if you have the right to speak, I have the right to point and giggle, and to encourage others to do the same.

          2. the Jim bloke Silver badge
            Joke

            Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

            If you yelled "Fire!" in a theatre screening Melania, would anyone hear?

            not actually joking,

            also, not actually much caring

            just musing,,

            1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge
              Coat

              Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

              If you yelled "Fire!" in a theatre screening Melania, would anyone hear?

              I wouldn't risk it, the likely audience would probably let fly with their 45's...

              1. Sam 15

                Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

                If you yelled "Fire!" in a theatre screening Melania, would anyone hear?

                I wouldn't risk it, the likely audience would probably let fly with their 45's...

                You can't scare me with anything less than an LP!

          3. M.V. Lipvig Silver badge

            Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

            The problem with prosecuting hate speech is who defines it? For many, hate speech is defined as "has a slightly different opinion than me."

            No, unless the speech is causing, or threatening to cause physical harm, there is no need to prosecute. That's what gets us Orwelled.

            1. John Robson Silver badge

              Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

              Physical harm is *far* too narrow a definition.

        2. Claude Yeller Silver badge

          Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

          Actually, only the US has a universal right to "Freedom of Speech" in their constitution. Other nations protect the "Freedom of Expressing an Opinion" in their official languages.

          The difference is subtle, but it seems death threats are not considered an "Expression of an Opinion" by the courts.

          1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

            Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

            Actually, only the US has a universal right to "Freedom of Speech" in their constitution. Other nations protect the "Freedom of Expressing an Opinion" in their official languages.

            Europe might not have constitutions, but it does have freedom of expression enshrined in laws. Like free speech, those are still qualified. Downside is those rights are also being steadily eroded.

            1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

              Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

              Sometimes simply named different, like "Grundgesetz", but the same effect.

              1. Claude Yeller Silver badge

                Re: A rose by any other name...

                "Sometimes simply named different, like "Grundgesetz", but the same effect."

                Indeed, and the "Grundgesetz", "Grondwet", or "La Constitution du 4 octobre 1958", etc all protect the free expression of opinions, but not "free speech" as the such.

                Different formulation with a subtly different meaning.

      2. Nematode Bronze badge

        Freedom and responsibilty are bedfellows...

        .....or they should be. Seems to be a missing element (responsibility) in today's world though.

        Free to say what you want but only if what you say meets common decency. The Buddhist concept "right speech" is a useful metric, regardless of beliefs/non-beliefs. Such as https://www.deepdharma.org/beliefs/right-speech/ (seems to be the full lot!)

        1. doublelayer Silver badge

          Re: Freedom and responsibilty are bedfellows...

          I don't agree with a lot of the statements in that article. The statements are either overly broad if read literally or unusably vague otherwise. For example, it suggests you don't argue: "Never go on the battlefield (arguing is not right speech); being of benefit isn’t about winning". I think that is harmful if it prevents you from correcting falsehoods from others. Furthermore, debate is useful in trying to convince people of something which, depending on what the something is, could be helpful or harmful. Maybe there's a delineation between debate and argument they're using here, though nothing says so, but you'd need another page on right debate to cover how to do that properly and I hope it would be clearer than this one.

          In other locations, the statements are contradictory unless I manually interpret them in nonobvious ways. It states that harsh speech is wrong and further suggests that rebukes "will speak gently", then another quote says "Sometimes we may have to use firm and angry words to urge someone to progress". There are two ways those things go together. Option 1: there's a fine difference between harsh and angry, in which case nobody there has admitted it or tried to describe what the difference is so you work it out for yourself, which usually means that words are harsh and hence wrong speech when you don't like what someone said to you and angry and hence right speech when you like what you said to someone else. Option 2: they aren't consistent and this isn't thought through.

          Further points diverge further from the conduct of speech and start defining philosophical or religious arguments as right or wrong speech. For example, another quote reads "any, assertion, or willingness to assert, that things are, or should be, other than they are, or are going to be other than they are, is a lie [defined frequently as the biggest wrong speech]." That's a separate point, and it's one that many believe, but they've attempted to define disagreeing with that philosophy as wrong speech. I don't think this is a very useful guide.

        2. ForthIsNotDead

          Re: Freedom and responsibilty are bedfellows...

          The moment you say "but only if..." you've just invalidated the whole concept of what free speech is!

          There should be no limits. None. But that does _not_ mean there won't be consequences: a law suit (slander, libel), criminal charges, a punch on the nose etc.

    2. Evil Auditor Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

      Fully agree.

      Anyway, report to management and make it gets reported to authorities.

      And yet, there might be a problem of evidence for such a threat (and other misconduct, too)... but if it hasn't been reported with authorities in the first place, there is no track record if something happens again and it will be more difficult for authorities to take appropriate action.

    3. tatatata

      Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

      The attitude towards threats has been changed quite a bit since around 2010. Before 2010 it was taken much less serious.

      1. Jamie Jones Silver badge

        Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

        In about 1991 I was temping in the local council tax department in Swansea Council.

        One time, I was amusingly telling a colleague about the nutter who phoned earlier that threatened to send his IRA mates to bomb the whole place. It was so laughable, I didn't think twice about it.

        However, I was told that I *had* to report this higher up, and mark it on his account.

        From that point on, any time his record was looked up, it would flash in red.

        1. Noodle

          Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

          And fair enough too, back in the 1990s the IRA were still regularly bombing places and murdering civilians. Maybe the guy was a nutter, but maybe not. I'm glad your workplace took such threats seriously.

          1. Jamie Jones Silver badge

            Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

            Well, not in Wales. The only Uk targets outside NI & England were military bases.

            But that's a nit-pic - I can't remember the details now, but it was a long ranting drunken call where he said all sorts of weird stuff.

          2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

            Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

            And fair enough too, back in the 1990s the IRA were still regularly bombing places and murdering civilians. Maybe the guy was a nutter, but maybe not. I'm glad your workplace took such threats seriously.

            It wasn't just PIRA. So around that time, I had 3 months working in Belfast for the phone company. It involved an interesting pre-deployment briefing that covered working for the phone company might mean we were a PIRA target. And because I apparently had a Catholic surname, I could be a target for Protestant terrorists. I'd been baptised, but that's as far as religion went for me. Was an interesting experience though. Then some years later, worked in Dublin and when people asked me my name, it was 'Oh, you're a Catholic'. Both bits of Ireland were strange that way.

        2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

          Were you truly in a position to distinguish between a nutter and a genuine threat? If you decided that it was a nutter and it wasn't you could have been putting many lives at risk, including your own.

          It has to be taken seriously, the consequences are too serious if it's real. The possibility of it being real cannot be dismissed simply because it's something outside your experience. As I keep saying here, experience is a dear teacher. I's better to learn from others' experience and not have to larn from your own.

          1. Jamie Jones Silver badge

            Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

            Fair point.

            I was about 21 and quite "young" and naive. Obviously I don't remember much about it, but it was a long rambling call where he ranted about all sorts of stupid shite, enough to make even the insecure little me laugh it off.

            Still, when they told me to document it, I didn't have a problem with it, though maybe I should have been told the policy when I started.

            As it was, there were actually many credible threats (not directly at me) but at others on the staff, including people coming to the offices and turning violent - all the interview rooms had alarms in them which when activated caused all the guys in the building to swarm in (though most often to the shock of a parent, and their mischievous toddlers who always seem to love pressing the button themselves)

            So, it wasn't an environment of complacency - but .. this guy was a stark raving nutter, honest!

            But yeah, point taken!

        3. Paul Hovnanian Silver badge
          Big Brother

          Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

          "From that point on, any time his record was looked up, it would flash in red."

          Which is somewhat troubling. Because that's an instance of punishment being meted out unilaterally. Based on the opinion(s) of another, with no hearing or adjudication. Some social media sites are overrun by self-appointed judges of public propriety. Woe to the one that runs afoul of such groups.

          It's perfectly reasonable for such sites to turn reports over to the authorities for examination and possible further action. But at least my country is stopping short of implementing shaming social credit scores (at this time).

          1. Jamie Jones Silver badge
            Happy

            Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

            I love how I've been called out for not taking it seriously,. and now also for documenting it as told to!

            I can't win!!!

            I think you're overstating the importance of it. This was only the council tax / community charge system. (For the IT angle, running on a woefully insecure ICL/AS400 system - I'm assuming the fault of application, not the OS. Any user could send full screen interrupting alerts to all users across the council in real-time, something I found out and tested on my last day :-) )

            If queried, the account flashes in read, prompting you to go into the notes section, where I basically relayed exactly what happened, so others could read for themselves on how serious the threat was. This had nothing to do with law enforcement, or even the benefits department, or anything else - they used the same As/400 system, and I assume the base database of people/addresses was from the same source, but the billings/history/account notes were strictly for the CT/CC team only. And DEFINITELY nothing to do with finance/credit rating/reputational reportage. It was a local council tax office, not the feds!

            As for "based on an opinion", well I did write that in my opinion he was a nutter (more formal words to that effect), but sure, there was no hearing or adjudication, it wasn't a court case.

            Whilst we were the office, and not just a call-centre, the principle is the same. Whenever you call your local energy supplier or any other call centre you have a relationship with, invariably, the operator makes a record of the conversation on the account (*). That would be equally valid as an opinion.But yeah, I suppose there was nothing stopping me flagging any account of anyone in Swansea as a violent psychopath, just as there's nothing stopping the guy you call up about your electricity bill from doing the same!

            (*) A special case would be OVO who claim to write everything down on the account, and then next time you call claim there is no evidence of anything. My current OVO dispute has been going on 5 years now, been through the ombidsmun twice (who agreed with me) yet they still haven't sorted it, and now I'm being advised to get a lawyer onto them for the continual harassment... but that's another story!

          2. sabroni Silver badge

            Re: Because that's an instance of punishment being meted out unilaterally.

            Is having your name flash red a punishment though?

            1. Paul Hovnanian Silver badge

              Re: Because that's an instance of punishment being meted out unilaterally.

              I'm not sure. From Jamie's original comment, it wasn't clear who could "look up" an account. Nor what sort of vetting was applied to related comments or complaints entered.

              It could be quite chilling for continued free speech if one were to fear some comment being caught by the armies of self- proclaimed "defenders of the public's morals". And a red flag (flashing, no less) be applied to one's on-line personna with no opportunity for a hearing.

              1. Jamie Jones Silver badge

                Re: Because that's an instance of punishment being meted out unilaterally.

                I'm pretty sure it was only other council tax/community charge staff - the database we used was completely separate from other systems there.

                Mind you, we did often get police calling us to find out if someone is paying at an address, or if we have evidence they've moved house. That surprised me - but we were told to give them the information, but only by calling them back on recognised numbers. I suppose if someone was looked up for that reason, and they flashed red, the cops would be told.

                More amusingly was we often got calls from Debt collectors, and other dodgy people, who would say something like "I haven't received a council tax bill - can you tell me what address you're sending it to?" - once I heard someone else on the phone in the background, coming out with the same spiel for a different name!"

                Me: "Well, what address do you think it's being sent to?" [standard response]

                Them: "Well just tell me what you've got, that will be easier".

                Then they soon get very angry!

                There was one time, a dear old lady called, worried she couldn't afford the bill one month without going without food, but she'd be able to pay it a week late, if that was ok. She sounded very worried and sincere. Her account history was perfect (and a huge many weren't!) - I said not to worry, and told her I'd freeze her account for 2 months (as opposed to a week - a week late wouldn't be noticed anyway) and she was so grateful.

                I actually made a note to check her account after 2 months (yeah, adhd/OCD strikes again) and she was true to her word, and paid in time.

                Some people were so rude and angry, and often patronising, and that just made us stick to the rules.

                What's the phrase? "You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar"?

                P.S. I didn't downvote your posts!

    4. DS999 Silver badge

      Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

      In the US simple threats are rarely prosecuted. Words like "if you do x I'll kill you" are thrown around with abandon by some, and because 99.99% of them are idle threats too many are willing to look the other way or accept claims like "I didn't really mean it, I said that in a moment of anger" (or worse, "I was joking")

      It is difficult to get a jury to unanimously convict someone over simple threats, unless there are extenuating circumstances like him telling people he has a loaded gun in his car he could grab in five minutes or his car being parked near the other person's house without any reasonable explanation.

      I suspect if he had gone to the police with the story as related in the article they would have told him there's nothing they can do, and recommend he seek a no contact order against the angry guy.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Why wasn't the violent idiot fired immediately and the cops called?

        They might have said the same thing to the angry guy's subsequent business partner.

  4. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

    Was it in "That one gun country"?

    I could have been in other countries as well, but...

    That type of human exists here too, and with age you recognize the triggers better. They are completely normal, play their role, but sometimes, sometimes they cannot hide it and a small sentence... For example: One who was great at organizing events and parties, really invests time and energy. he asks for help and you are done with what he asked for. If you offer help, a tiny bit too much, you might get "But you won't take this (event) away (from me) now, won't you?"... (word in brackets added for clearer meaning, German was "Du nimmsch mir des aber jetz nich weg, oda?")

    1. anothercynic Silver badge
      Angel

      Re: Was it in "That one gun country"?

      An bisserl Schwäbisch? :-)

      1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

        Re: Was it in "That one gun country"?

        Jup, der war nur "â gloas bisserle" schwäbisch, ein Grenzgänger...

        1. Albert Coates

          Re: Was it in "That one gun country"?

          Schwobatastischer Spaß!

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    > If you experience threats of violence in the workplace, report it to your employer and do not hesitate to call emergency services if you feel in immediate danger.

    How times have changed. Back when I was a trainee COBOL programmer for a bank, the most senior developer was a big loud Aussie who would regularly threaten to "come over there and shove that terminal up your arse!". I guess he wouldn't get away with that nowadays.

    1. lglethal Silver badge
      Stop

      And guess what? He shouldnt have got away with it back then either.

      If you cant be professional when working in a professional environment, then maybe you should consider finding a new profession.

      Shouting, making threats, abuse of any kind, is really not acceptable in any profession. And frankly, that guy should have been sat down and had that explained to him. And if he couldnt learn to modify his beahviour, then out the door. I guarantee productivity from the rest of the team would have improved.

      1. anothercynic Silver badge

        Shouting can be excused in very very limited sets of circumstances (provided it then doesn't happen again)...

        But I agree with you that coupled with making threats or abuse of any kind, it most definitely is not.

        1. Lon24 Silver badge

          Shouting seldom achieves anything - except for a person to get frustration out of their system. That's the key, explode and move on. The dangerous people who turn frustration into a grudge which lasts forever and can grow by feeding on itself. These are the people who cause most harm to others and themselves.

      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        "And frankly, that guy should have been sat down and had that explained to him."

        A bit tricky doing that when the two parties doing the shouting (at each other) are directors and they're doing it in the middle of an open plan office.

      3. An_Old_Dog Silver badge

        Context

        So, I guess you've never been to a LAN party to play Doom or Quake.

        I would have taken the Aussie's threats as his expression of intensity, not of his true intentions. Things can get very "informal" once behind the closed doors of Mission Control, where customers and upper management do not go.

        The problem comes when a new employee is taken into the ranks, and they are not OK with that level of informality, in which case, it's time for everyone else to start "keeping it clean."

  6. druck Silver badge

    Some hope

    And with luck, none of us will, as the news report Henry showed us states the murderer will remain in prison for at least another 15 years – and possibly many more.

    Not with the early release schemes these days.

    1. Prst. V.Jeltz Silver badge

      Re: Some hope

      I dont think they mentioned which country this occurred in .

      But the whole staff attitude to doing what the f they want with their work computers suggests it was a while back , so 15 years to go is surprising! Although the murder did happen an unspecified time after the story

    2. GlenP Silver badge

      Re: Some hope

      Not with the early release schemes these days.

      Almost certainly not applicable in the UK, I can't speak for elsewhere. Life sentences are excluded from the early release schemes. He'd still have to serve the 15 years before being eligible to apply for parole.

      1. Robert Sneddon

        Re: Some hope

        In Britain a life sentence means life. There is no parole, there is instead a licencing scheme for qualified release of prisoners serving a life sentence. It's much stricter and the sentence never expires.

        1. Alan Brown Silver badge

          Re: Some hope

          It's the same in most countries.

          "Life" may mean a decade in jail, but release is "under supervision" and they can be recalled at any time if they don't keep their nose clean.

  7. Evil Auditor Silver badge
    Coffee/keyboard

    Has working in tech support put you in an unsafe situation?

    On a lighter note: only for having to touch disgustingly filthy keyboards.

    1. GlenP Silver badge

      I have, on a couple of occasions, pinched some gloves out of the first aid supplies* before handling keyboards or laptops. Even then it's been a case of wiping data then putting them in the recycling pile.

      *I controlled these so no need to bother getting some for the department!

    2. elsergiovolador Silver badge

      After all it's a cumputer clayboard.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Dirty keyboard, pah.

      With a previous work hat on, I witnessed a client bring in their computer to "be looked at" - I forget what for.

      Whatever colour it started life as, it was now a sticky brown - the user was a chain smoker and the whole thing (inside and out) was liberally covered in a layer of sticky brown "gunge", which one assumes is a cocktail of unpleasant, dangerous, carcinogenic chemicals.

      I think the consensus among colleagues was "don't touch it with a bargepole" - but one guy bravely donned some gloves and sorted out what ever it was it was ailing from.

      For bonus comedic value, he was head antagonist for a pressure group fighting what they considered pollution.

    4. Ken Shabby Silver badge
      Alert

      And that is just my own.

  8. Pascal Monett Silver badge

    Americans

    They really are the last people that have should have guns readily available.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Americans

      I guess you've been "triggered!!" haha.

      Not sure why you're saying that, the story did not mention guns or the country it happened in.

      1. Ozumo

        Re: Americans

        Yes, perhaps he intended to "put a bullet in my face" using some other kind of implement...

      2. LogicGate Silver badge

        Re: Americans

        Well, the story mentioned a bullet, but you are right, it may have been a rifle rather than a "gun".

        As for the geolocation, very few countries has the same degree of firearm profiliation as the US, especially with regards to firearms not locked away safely.

        Compound this with the fact that the current US administration is "flooding the zone" in order to keep everyone thinking about them ALL the time, it is understandable that the OP read the story and instinctively thought about "the land of the people that believe that they and only they are, and have the right to be, free".

        edit:spellink

        1. TDog

          Re: Americans

          Rifles are guns. Bai Gum.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Americans

            Even artillery pieces are guns. RA soldiers are gunners.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Not sure why you're saying that

        Really? It's because you're the only country in the world to have mass school shootings on the regular and not do something about it.

        Most places, when kids get slaughtered by a gun wielding nut job, say "maybe we should stop the nut jobs getting guns".

        You teach kids how to hide.

    2. GeekyOldFart

      Re: Americans

      Speaking as a Brit who lived 20 years in America, I think we need a little perspective on the whole "American Gun Culture" meme.

      Let's start with a basic fact about the USA. It's big. A lot of it is still very wild. Even in the bits that aren't truly wild, there's a lot of it where your nearest neighbor might be two miles away. So, starting from there lets look at some natural results of that.

      Hunting is a very big thing in most of the USA. It's managed, controlled, most states set quotas for how many does and bucks can be taken each hunting season to control the deer population in the (human-created) absence of their natural predators, wolves and cougars. If there are hunters, there will be rifles. I'll freely admit that I put one or two deer in my freezer every year courtesy of the .30-06 rifle that lived in the safe in my study.

      Those wild or almost-wild spaces do have a human population. When you live in those places you almost always have a shotgun for vermin control and maybe the occasional bird for your table. This isn't a uniquely American thing, even in the UK "I'm a farmer" will usually be considered "sufficient reason" to apply for a shotgun certificate by the local plod. Then there's the fact that, in the USA, a lot of those sparsely populated bits of landscape are shared with wildlife that wouldn't object to discovering what you taste like and are more than capable of pursuing that interest if given the opportunity. There are countless wild and beautiful places in the USA to visit, but in many of them wandering the landscape unarmed would be almost stupid.

      So, we have an unavoidable presence of firearms in huge parts of an even bigger nation. And if they are there, they will be everywhere. City-based hunters will be taking their guns home. Folks with nefarious intent aren't going to gripe about driving a few hours to a rural area where buying a firearm is normal and won't raise any curious or official eyebrows. So the cops are armed, because the criminals are. And, because the criminals are, you find folks in a situation like mine where a data center is in a bad part of town and all the local uglies knew that anyone coming in out of hours likely had "useful" access to banking servers... It wasn't mandatory, but my employer strongly encouraged folks who might respond out of hours to acquire a carry permit and a sidearm.

      And then we get to the simple fact that recreational marksmanship is fun. Putting a couple of boxes of rounds down the range regularly and watching your skills improve is immensely satisfying, like succeeding in any sport is.

      That's the vast majority of gun owners in the USA right there. Folks like me who have never pointed a gun at anything that wasn't a paper target, a clay pigeon or something I intended to eat. Unfortunately the American population is as big as its landmass, so it doesn't take a significant percentage of idiots or criminals to have a LOT of people prepared to acquire weapons and misuse them. And they are the ones that are loud and make the news.

      I no longer own any of the ones I had, by the way. I sold them before coming back to the UK because I didn't need them for my lifestyle here. The only one I might have wanted to keep was my shotgun, but as a pump-action that held more than two shells it would have been problematic to import. So I sold that one over there and got myself a nice double-barrel for lots of clays and the occasional pheasant that makes the mistake of deciding that destroying my garden is a wise course of action.

      1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

        Re: Americans

        There are countless wild and beautiful places in the USA to visit, but in many of them wandering the landscape unarmed would be almost stupid.

        Yep. I was hiking and had a 'hello kitty' moment when a mountain lion objected to us being on his trail. Bit of a pucker moment when it started doing its pouncing threat display, but luckily we didn't need to shoot it. Also lucky there were 4 of us because if we were alone, friends said it might just have pounced and attacked. An impressive beast though, and rather larger than the typical UK feral cat. Then also had a call for hunters from the local PD because wild boar had started encroaching on the town and had been seen on the school's playing field. Boar tusks vs kid's femoral arteries wouldn't end well, but it ended up with free boar meat and a celebratory bbq. Boars are serious pests, dangerous but make excellent sausages.

        Also had some friends working IT in the Alaskan oil fields and had to contend with timber wolves, bears and moose.. and apparently moose were the most dangerous because they could have a bit of an attitude. But also good eating. And I got to see why hiding up a tree is a bad idea vs bears.. I watched some black bears and they can climb trees fast. Fun to watch them playing though, but only from a safe distance.

        And, because the criminals are, you find folks in a situation like mine where a data center is in a bad part of town and all the local uglies knew that anyone coming in out of hours likely had "useful" access to banking servers... It wasn't mandatory, but my employer strongly encouraged folks who might respond out of hours to acquire a carry permit and a sidearm.

        Yep We had a datacentre in upstate NY. Manager was an ex cop and even though it was only a short walk from the train station, his advice was to always take a cab because otherwise you probably wouldn't make it. Other popular datacentres like 60 Hudson St in NY, or the ones on Wilshire Boulevard could also get interesting to visit out-of-hours. But one of those interesting challenges to working in IT. Want to do upgrades at 2am? Make sure the procedures include how to get staff safely to the building to avoid expensive hospital bills.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Americans

          Working in N Ireland we were offered a side arm for personal protection id we felt we needed it. Most declined. I certainly did, following the example of my father who also believed in not having guns in a house with small children (in his case his poaching shotgun). One of those who did take up the offer had an accidental discharge at work. He was in a stacked Portakabin. The round went through the cabin below where our librarian worked. Fortunately it missed her but I don't suppose she was too pleased.

      2. A.P. Veening Silver badge

        Re: Americans

        I have no problems with guns for hunting and protection from dangerous wildlife. But the USA isn't unique in that regard and the situation is even a bit more extreme in Canada but reports about gun violence in Canada are about as rare as hen's teeth while they are daily from the USA and often multiple per day, so I just don't buy it.

        1. WolfFan Silver badge

          Re: Americans

          The US has 11 times the population of Canada. There will be more nuts because there are more people.

          1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

            Re: Americans

            The US has 11 times the population of Canada. There will be more nuts because there are more people.

            So why does the USA have 1100 times the shootings of Canada?

            1. Not Yb Silver badge

              Re: Americans

              Because at this point you're just making up statistics that 'sound good' for your argument.

              1. Richard 12 Silver badge
                Boffin

                Re: Americans

                Recent UN figures:

                Canada had 0.889 firearms homicides per 100,000 people (2022). UK, 0.047 (2021)

                The USA had 4.054 (2020) - similar to El Salvador, and about half of Costa Rica.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Americans

                  It's a very significant difference, yes, there are significantly more gun deaths per capita (and total) in the US than in Canada.

                  However, it's not 1100 times by any data I've found recently. That's the "made up statistic".

                  1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

                    Re: Americans

                    School shootings USA 2025: 233. More than Europe the last 65 years.

                    School shootings USA 2024: 336. More than Europe the last > 120 years.

                    School shootings Canada last >200 years: 73.

                    Source: K12 database USA and for the others Wikipedia.

        2. Paul Cooper

          Re: Americans

          I'm currently in Hong Kong, and despite its reputation as an urban jungle, lots of it is real jungle. Wild boars, monkeys and cattle are fairly common; I encountered a boar on a walk in close proximity to a heavily built-up area not long ago. And that boar was a) bigger than me and b) equipped with nasty-looking tusks. Monkeys are ten a penny in country parks; although smaller than humans (about the size of a toddler), they are quite capable of causing damage to a human. The walk was a popular one with a maintained path; I encountered several other people walking on the same path.

          Despite the presence of large and potentially dangerous wildlife, no one in HK carries firearms; I think that possession of them is even more heavily regulated than in the UK, though they are sold fairly widely. Further, wildlife is generally protected; initiatives to keep them from urban areas take the form of discouraging people from feeding them and ensuring that food remains are disposed of so they are inaccessible to wildlife. Of course, a significant proportion of the population is Buddhist, and their beliefs make them unwilling to harm living creatures.

          1. DecyrptedGeek

            Re: Americans

            Could have sworn I saw a picture of a child with a pellet gun to chase off monkeys trying to steal their lunch.

        3. DanceMan
          Stop

          Re: reports about gun violence in Canada are about as rare as hen's teeth

          Rare but not non-existant

          All federal party leaders are in a small (pop 2400) northern mining town in BC after a mentally disturbed 18 year old killed 6 kids and an adult at the school and her mother and step-brother at a house. One more student in hospital is as good as dead. Killer (suicided) had a fascination with guns and police discovered more than permits existed for. Details about the guns are so far limited but federal gun buyback program is controversial . It's hard to shoot nearly 40 people (25 or so also injured) with a hunting rifle but much easier with a semi-automatic with a clip and a modified handgun.

        4. JWLong Silver badge

          Re: Americans

          American population is 360+million, compare that to Canada at 41 million.

          Do the math, it ain't algebra.

          You will find that 99% of gun violence in the USA is in the inner city area's where even the cops don't want to go(and I don't blame them!).

      3. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

        Re: Americans

        > That's the vast majority of gun owners in the USA right there. Folks like me who have never pointed a gun at anything that wasn't a paper target, a clay pigeon or

        > something I intended to eat. Unfortunately the American population is as big as its landmass, so it doesn't take a significant percentage of idiots or criminals to

        > have a LOT of people prepared to acquire weapons and misuse them. And they are the ones that are loud and make the news.

        Let me ask a question about your time in the USA: How many did you know, at least seen in person, which should NOT own a gun. But you couldn't do anything about it. I am not against guns in USA, it is the lack of control.

        1. GeekyOldFart

          Re: Americans

          Let me ask a question about your time in the USA: How many did you know, at least seen in person, which should NOT own a gun. But you couldn't do anything about it. I am not against guns in USA, it is the lack of control.

          Ok, amongst the folks that I actually met in person:

          More folks that shouldn't own guns than I could count. Heck, some of them I wouldn't trust with a butter knife.

          Folks that shouldn't own guns but did anyway? A few..

          One was a cranky old geezer who never left his small ranch except to go to church. So no danger to anyone who wasn't trespassing and annoying his livestock (although he'd be much more likely to just set his dogs on them than reach for his old 12-gauge)..

          Another was a former colleague who I was surprised and a little horrified to meet at the range one weekend. Second time I saw him there I reported him for safety violations that scared the shit out of me to watch. That got him banned from the range. The range owner was also the county sheriff and saw the video of his behavior on the range that day. Blacklisted from ever getting a carry permit ("May Issue" state,) and with that showing up in his background checks he'd not get any job that required him to be armed. So while he could legally own it, he couldn't legally carry it concealed, it had to stay in its case unless it was at home or at the range. With the nearest range he wasn't banned from a two-hour drive away, he lost interest in gun ownership pretty quick.

          Almost all the others were irresponsible or downright unsafe hunters. Their rep gets around the hunting community pretty quick and almost all of them run afoul of Fish&Game eventually.

          There are actually controls in place already, they just need to be enforced - eg by closing the gun show loophole for background checks (without screwing it up for legitimate private sellers.)

          1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

            Re: Americans

            There are actually controls in place already, they just need to be enforced - eg by closing the gun show loophole for background checks (without screwing it up for legitimate private sellers.)

            I think there should also be mandatory training. There's an amount of self-policing, ie your chappie at the range being unsafe & reporting that. I liked the FAC system we had in the UK where prospective firearm owners had to be a member of a club, attend regularly and then the club could advise if the person might be safe around firearms. Not perfect, but I think important, especially where CCW are permissable. I'm not keen on that being in places like the UK though. One of my favorite examples were calls to allow firearms for self-defence after a nightclub shooting in Paris. So someone yells 'Gun!' and everyone draws and starts blazing. It's much simpler if the police know that the person with a gun is the criminal. Plus firearms and alchohol just don't mix, and could result in a felony in the US.

          2. A.P. Veening Silver badge

            Re: Americans

            One was a cranky old geezer who never left his small ranch except to go to church. So no danger to anyone who wasn't trespassing and annoying his livestock (although he'd be much more likely to just set his dogs on them than reach for his old 12-gauge)..

            That is one I would trust with a gun.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Americans

        Yes, and you need warfare semi-automatic guns in case zombies or aliens attacks... and several of them, of course. That's not self-defense or hunting, it's a different thing.

        1. GeekyOldFart

          Re: Americans

          those "warfare semi-automatic guns" you're talking about are civilian-market versions of military rifles, yes. But the market for them is mostly veterans. They get to keep up their practice at the range with a version of the rifle they've become so familiar with, except chambered for a civilian round and with no burst or auto mode. They are civilian-grade guns cosplaying as military hardware so that folks already familiar with the real thing can shoot something that handles like what they are used to, but they "look scary" so... Personally I always preferred a magazine-fed bolt action but to each their own

          A nationally enforceable magazine capacity limit would be useful here, true. I don't see any reason for a 30-round box on a civilian rifle. Even in a self-defense scenario, if you need 30 rounds in a civilian defense situation then you're one of: (a) a piss-poor shot, (b) in such deep shit that the extra ammo won't help, (c) trying to play Rambo instead of firing defensively to get yourself the hell out of there.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Americans

            @ GeekyOldFart:

            Even in a self-defense scenario, if you need 30 rounds in a civilian defense situation then you're one of: (a) a piss-poor shot, (b) in such deep shit that the extra ammo won't help...

            Home-invasion scenarios include multiple aggressors, armed with multi-shot weapons. As the invadee, you may not have a clear shot at the aggressors, yet still need 30+ rounds simply to halt the aggressors' advance, and keep their heads down so you can more-safely move to a safer area in your house, or escape it altogether.

            It's called a "fighting retreat". People who simply turn and run get shot in the back.

            1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

              Re: Americans

              Home-invasion scenarios include multiple aggressors, armed with multi-shot weapons. As the invadee, you may not have a clear shot at the aggressors, yet still need 30+ rounds simply to halt the aggressors' advance, and keep their heads down so you can more-safely move to a safer area in your house, or escape it altogether.

              I think those scenarios are very rare, and you shouldn't be relying on spray & pray. Plus an AR-15 style rifle might be tacticool, but it's probably the wrong tool for the job. So the risk of overpenetration and long guns being harder to get on target at short ranges. A decent handgun, some range time and you shouldn't need more than 3 rounds per perp to send them off to Mozambique, with your complements. Or something like a Benneli M4 shotgun with #4 buckshot. 'Only' a 6-shot capacity, but that's 6x25 .223(ish) pellets and less risk of overpenetrating. Plus from chatting with both LEOs and some wealthy friends, there's something rather intimidating about staring down the business end of a 12ga. Especially if perp #2 sees what just happened to perp #1 and decides to nope out of the situation and rethink their life choices.

              Or it can be better to try and avoid such situations by making some home improvements, like security lighting & alarms, decent solid doors and turn your primary into a safe room just by adding a firedoor and a lock. Alarm goes off, everyone gets into the primary, call 911 and wait for the cavalry. Less paperwork and legal bills, and if the criminals do try to get into the safe room, clean justification for self-defence. But such is America. It also amuses me that preppers with lots of firearms might not realise they could be making themselves a target because criminals often use stolen guns. And how do they get those?..

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Americans

                The resident ammosexuals are rising again.

                1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                  Re: Americans

                  The resident ammosexuals are rising again.

                  As are the AC trolls it seems. Not sure why you sexualise firearms, but you do you. They can be fetish items after all. Otherwise they're inanimate objects and tools. I've mentoned a few times that I write, so that sometimes involves firearms and some degree of research to be plausible. Or just poke fun at fetishists, like a villain with a Taran Tactical that watched too many movies. Fiction does still need to be grounded in some semblance of reality, otherwise you can end up with implausible plots involving supervillains and frogs.

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Gimp

                    Re: Americans

                    Here, take this box of Kleenex. Clean yourself up.

              2. An_Old_Dog Silver badge

                Re: Americans

                @ Jellied Eel:

                I think those scenarios are very rare, and you shouldn't be relying on spray & pray.

                1. Risk == probability_of_occurrance x severity_of_negative_consequences

                Being severely injured or killed is a sufficiently-huge negative consequence that it dwarfs the lowish-but-rising probability this will happen. Where you live is a major factor. The reason the probability is rising is the increase in peoples' abusing drugs.

                It appears you did not read what I wrote about why you would spray-and-pray.

                2. I have a dislike of "tacticool" weapons, and largely agree with your comments on shotguns for home defense. To a sober, unimpaired, rational person, the "shick-chack" sound of a pump-action being racked screams in their mind, "Get the hell away from here!"

                Drunk and drugged-up people are not rational, and frequently do not act in their own best interests. If such people break into your home, you cannot count on intimidation -- even the 12-guage variety -- to sway them. You cannot even count on killing their partners-in-crime to sway them. There's a good chance you will only anger them, rather than cowing them.

                Shotguns are very-effective at injuring and killing, but they are awkward inside a house or apartment. Further, they have only six to eight shots, in a very-slow-to-reload tube magazine.

                Pistols are extremely-easily manueverable in cramped quarters, and a 9mm pistol holds 13-15 rounds per clip. I am a lousy shot with a pistol, even when I am calm, facing no threats, and am trying to punch holes in paper targets. I can hit the paper square about 75% of the time. ("Hey, look, I hit the clothes pin holding the target to the wire.") Pumped up on adrenalin, as one would be in such a situation, I probably am even worse.

                Semi-auto rifles can hold about 30 rounds in a large clip. For home defense, a "bullpup" style would substantially increase one's effective manueverability, and Glaser Safety Slugs mitigate the problem of your rounds going through walls and hitting people you don't want to hit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaser_Safety_Slug).

                Or it can be better to try and avoid such situations by making some home improvements, like security lighting & alarms, decent solid doors and turn your primary into a safe room just by adding a firedoor and a lock.

                1. A room is not made safe against intruders by merely adding a sturdy door. Lath-and-plaster, or even sheetrock walls are a weak point.

                2. A not-drunk, not-high-on-drugs crim or gang would look at the lighting, security cameras, hardened doors, etc., and likely decide to look for a different, softer target. Thugs impaired by booze and drugs are becoming more and more the norm. You cannot count on them to be "logical" and move on to a different target.

                3. Most people live in flats or other rentals whose management would prohibit their renters from modifying the property (new, sturdier framing to support heavy doors, wiring changes for lights, cameras, and alarms, etc.).

                It also amuses me that preppers with lots of firearms might not realise they could be making themselves a target because criminals often use stolen guns. And how do they get those?..

                Criminals frequently get guns by stealing them, of course. I don't know why some people with guns don't keep them locked up. If you're a crim on the prowl, a prominent "Protected by Smith & Wesson" placard will tell you swag is available within.

                1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                  Re: Americans

                  It appears you did not read what I wrote about why you would spray-and-pray.

                  I don't believe you ever would, or should. It's also why I think every firearm owner should get trained because those courses usually cover the legality, and use of force. So-

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_self-defense#Legal_defense_for_self-defense_claim

                  When the plea is supported by evidence, it is a sufficient justification, unless the retaliation by the defendant were excessive, and bore no proportion to the necessity, or to the provocation received.

                  Unloading multiple 30-round magazines (not clips, unless you're a Garand enthusiast) would probably be regarded as excessive. And you may have to account for, and justify every shot fired. Especially if they hit bystanders, damaged other peoples property. Same principle can also apply in Castle states, so still need to demonstrate lethal force was justified, and applied reasonably.

                  I am a lousy shot with a pistol, even when I am calm, facing no threats, and am trying to punch holes in paper targets. I can hit the paper square about 75% of the time. ("Hey, look, I hit the clothes pin holding the target to the wire.") Pumped up on adrenalin, as one would be in such a situation, I probably am even worse.

                  That just means you need more practice. I used to shoot competitively, which for the UK meant police, service & standard pistol matches. I started shooting at a civil service range, and got invited to shoot the local police training centre. So fancier simulations that started with a basic radio call describing the incident.. Then having to make decisions with sirens, screaming and distractions going off. My accuracy suffered. One scenario was also sneaky with a radio call not to shoot at the same time the video villain looked like they were about to. Quite a sobering experience that demonstrated the pressure on the police.

                  Shotguns are very-effective at injuring and killing, but they are awkward inside a house or apartment. Further, they have only six to eight shots, in a very-slow-to-reload tube magazine.

                  Not really. Overall length is much the same as for a rifle, or might be legally shorter, ie the Benelli M4 with a folding stock. Then it's practice again, and the general lethality of a shotgun vs a handgun or rifle. Most competitions require reloading, generally under time pressure.. which is the general problem with home invasion scenarios, ie very little time and distance. So anything that can be done to slow down an intruder either getting inside your property, or to you/your family helps.

          2. Paul Hovnanian Silver badge

            Re: Americans

            "except chambered for a civilian round"

            Sadly, yes. We'd all be better off sticking to military rounds. Which are (in most places) restricted by the 1899 Hague Convention (not ratified by the USA, but observed as a part of NATO). Civilian rounds are subject to far fewer restrictions.

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Americans

            Sure, all those seventeen.years veterans who got an AR-15 for their birthday and practice at school....

            And what "multiple invaders" scenario do you fear? Russians? Mexicans? Hebrews? Zombies? Aliens?

            Is US so dangerours to live in??

            It's like drininking and drugs, if you can't admit you have a problem, you won't ever solve it.

            1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

              Re: Americans

              And what "multiple invaders" scenario do you fear? Russians? Mexicans? Hebrews? Zombies? Aliens? Is US so dangerours to live in??

              It is, but why should anyone make the effort to cross big bodies of water just to invade USA? I mean, a second time, when including the ~300 years before USA was founded... Currently USA has only one enemy: Itself. And that alone is dangerous enough.

              1. Paul Hovnanian Silver badge

                Re: Americans

                "It is, but why should anyone make the effort to cross big bodies of water"

                The Rio Grande isn't that big. Notwithstanding an attempt to secure its shore with barbed wire. And if there's a sufficient profit involved, speed boats from Venezuela will do quite nicely.

                The "why" question has many answers. But the frequency of occurence speaks to the question being answered in the affirmitave quite frequently.

                1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

                  Re: Americans

                  Yeah, like the northern neighbours are the source of aggression here... I talk about real possible enemies which could attack USA on their own ground, not some weird conspiracy ideas...

                2. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Americans

                  You've clearly got absolutely no idea where Venezuela is.

                  Or you're a bot.

                  Get a map, and if you have jelly between your ears, use it.

                  1. Paul Hovnanian Silver badge

                    Re: Americans

                    "You've clearly got absolutely no idea where Venezuela is."

                    Just South of the Caribbean Sea.

          4. Alan Brown Silver badge

            Re: Americans

            "They are civilian-grade guns cosplaying as military hardware"

            Usually trivially modified back to military spec (burst and full-auto) and widely fetishised by people who should't be allowed near a butter knife, let alone anything more dangerous

      5. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Americans

        And I live in the countryside in England. The farmers etc. all have guns too, legally.

        Hell, even my brother did for a while - only retiring it when he wanted to. Plod was fine with it.

        It doesn't mean it's a plausible excuse to shoot up schools though.

        https://www.businessinsider.com/guns-you-can-legally-buy-in-the-uk-2016-4#-this-heckler-and-koch-hk416-a-version-of-the-ar15-rifle-that-is-used-by-special-forces-around-the-world--6

      6. Benegesserict Cumbersomberbatch Silver badge

        Re: Americans

        Lots of words. Unfortunately the issue is not so much American Gun Culture, but American Gun Violence Culture.

      7. Alan Brown Silver badge

        Re: Americans

        The bigger problem is handguns

        Long guns are difficult to put in your waistband or shove down a trouser leg. That's why many countries have laws limiting the minimum length of the entire item (including stock) to around 24 inches (60cm) - enough to put a pump-action shotgun with short barrel and grip into the "handgun" category

        Some go a couple of steps further, banning semiautomatic weapons and/or carbines and/or magazines greater than 5 shots and/or restrict larger calibres

        I'm sure someone will argue that a handgun is necessary when hunting in order to fend off a close-in predator. Any decent hunter won't allow themselves to end up in that position.

        1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

          Re: Americans

          The bigger problem is handguns

          Nope, it's people. Firearms are inert lumps of metal with no free will or agency. It takes a person to make them dangerous, hence why I'm a fan of requiring some background checks and basic safety training.

          Long guns are difficult to put in your waistband or shove down a trouser leg. That's why many countries have laws limiting the minimum length of the entire item (including stock) to around 24 inches (60cm) - enough to put a pump-action shotgun with short barrel and grip into the "handgun" category

          Some go a couple of steps further, banning semiautomatic weapons and/or carbines and/or magazines greater than 5 shots and/or restrict larger calibres.

          In the US, those are already regulated, ie SBR (Short Barreled Rifle) and SBS (Short Barreled Shotgun). Some work around this by selling 'pistol braces' that exploit loopholes intended to allow disabled people to shoot, which is a right under the Americans with Disabilities Act.. Which is then a challenge with framing legislation. One possible solution is checking for disability during the background check. Limiting capacity doesn't really work. California and some other states have already passed laws restricting 'high capacity' magazines. Some firearms are limited by design, ie an SBS would have a shorter feed tube, limiting capacity.

          Or firearms manufacturers place limitations, ie my favorite Benelli M4 has a 'tactical' version with an SBS-length barrel and folding stock that's only sold to LEAs and the military. But Benelli also sells stocks and tube extensions, and the M4 is popular in 3-gun shooting competitions.. which can now be illegall in California. But criminals, by definition don't care about laws, so Californian LEOs regularly arrest idiots who think a Glock with the infamous 'Glock Switch' and 30 round magazines is cool.. Or several felonies and a chunk of jail time, unless DAs decide not to press charges. The US is weird like that.

          And then there's 'larger calibres', which becomes challenging. Like I don't really see the point of owning something like a Barret .50, but a lot of people do. It kinda works as a long-range rifle, but better choices are available, like 6 or 7mm. So depending on the purpose of legislation, placing an arbitary limit on calibre isn't that effective. Plus may also catch historical firearms like black powder muskets and rifles that depending on state, might not currently be considered firearms.

          I'm sure someone will argue that a handgun is necessary when hunting in order to fend off a close-in predator. Any decent hunter won't allow themselves to end up in that position.

          I think this is just an example of people not understanding the environment, or risks. So a denizen of say, LA or NYC might want to go hiking in the Rockies and encounter a mountain lion, like we did. Those can be rather dangerous, or just impressive to see. Or they don't need to travel so far because there's a population in the Santa Monica mountains that sometimes wander into LA. Or there's a place I want to buy a chunk of, Alaska. Go fishing for salmon, and you might discover you're on a bear trail. Or there's wolves, and timber wolves are large, and dangerous. Or mad moose. But a place where being out in the wild without a firearm can be very risky. Or you don't need to go as far afield as Alaska to find black or brown bears.. And if you're in the woods, you might need to fend off a close-in predator, and something like the Alaska specials, so a 10mm pistol or a .45-70 carbine 'brush gun' might just save your life.. Or head to the far north in Alaska and you might just find a polar bear, or it'll more likely find you given they're very good ambush predators and will more likely find you first. I think there are some places with polar bears that have laws making it illegal to venture out without a firearm because of the very real danger.. Especiall given since hunting bans, and despite being a poster child for 'Global Warming', polar bear populations are thriving.

          But such is politics. Any decent hunter should have a far greater understanding of nature, and it being bloody in tooth and claw than fascist townies that just want to ban things.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Gimp

            Re: Americans

            Seems you've messed yourself. Again.

      8. PerlyKing

        Re: Americans

        [Lots of stuff about hunting]

        This is all true, but doesn't explain the need for assault-style rifles which can apparently be easily converted to automatic fire, or for handguns which have no place in hunting.

        1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

          Re: Americans

          or for handguns which have no place in hunting.

          I'd still argue that handguns have a place in hiking around areas with hazardous wildlife, eg my encounter with a mountain lion. Apparently I was 'lucky' to see one, and most of the time wildlife might avoid humans. But not always. This is also getting interesting in places like Romania, where bear populations have been increasing, along with attacks on people. The EU is a bit weird like that, ie reintroducting or encouraging dangerous animals like bears & wolves, while at the same time disarming hikers. Handguns are a lot more discrete than hikers trekking carrying long guns. But then there can also be conflicting legislation, ie open-carrying a rifle or shotgun on public land, or concealed carrying a sidearm for possible self-defence. Or even things like cans of bear mace being illegal in some countries, or just their general effectiveness. Bears may like the taste of chilli spiced humans.

          Problem is still people, ie some have an irrational fear of inanimate objects that rational people regard as tools.

          1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

            Re: Americans

            > I'd still argue that handguns have a place in hiking around areas with hazardous wildlife, eg my encounter with a mountain lion.

            But only for the noise, where a firecracker is as effective. Hitting a moving target with a gun is not guaranteed - rather the opposite. A spear, for example, is far more effective: Push the one end to the ground to make it stable, and have the spiky end towards the animal. In such a situation I would feel more safe with the spear. Possibly a few of them as fold-able version, modern made.

            A gun is only an offense weapon, a spear can be both depending on how it is made.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Americans

              Ammosexuals don't get aroused by spears though.

            2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

              Re: Americans

              A gun is only an offense weapon, a spear can be both depending on how it is made.

              A spear, halbard or glaive may help with (anti)social distancing, but isn't exactly discrete or entirely practical. But from chatting with some friends last night, they reminded me of this hazard-

              https://www.pdsa.org.uk/pet-help-and-advice/pet-health-hub/conditions/rabies-in-cats

              Rabies can then develop in one of two ways, ‘furious rabies’ or ‘dumb rabies’. Unlike dogs, most cats (95%) will show signs of furious rabies.

              Furious rabies symptoms include:

              Aggression including biting

              Then in humans, if you display symptoms of rabies, you're probably going to die because there isn't much in the way of a cure. Luckily our biosafety protocols have managed to keep rabies out of the UK, but people bringing in rescue animals without proper quarantine risks introducing it. Then we have plenty of wildlife that can catch and spread it. Plus we're a lot less familiar with the risks than in places where it's endemic, and doctors have posters telling you if you get bit, get jabbed, before it's too late.

  9. Dave@Home

    Reminds me of poor management

    Worked at a Big 4 place, Incident manager.

    We had a lad on secondment into our team from a level one desk.

    Didn't work out for various reasons and so at the end of the secondment he was told he wouldn't be joining permanently.

    He was on Facebook that night talking in the open about how he wanted to come into the office with a knife.

    Management did nothing, even when shown the posts.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Reminds me of poor management

      Management did nothing, even when shown the posts.

      The possible replies to that are "If he did do that would like to be the one answering the police and reporters' questions afterwards?" and "Have you checked with legal?"

    2. meataxe

      Re: Reminds me of poor management

      NZ, Hospital IT, early 2000's: workplace grievance lead to a colleague bringing a knife to work, brandishing it at us and stabbing it into the doorway as he left the building, apprehended by police that day and later sectioned under the mental health act. Mgmt wishy washy on firing him, 5-10 staff left within the year as it looked like he'd be allowed back on the team.

      Ireland, private company, early 2000s: boss/owner almost got into a fight with my colleague over my colleagues legitimate expenses. Company went under within the year, owner disappeared with company funds.

      A colleague had to talk down a guy having a psychotic break during a tech support site visit, she was the only person there and he was threatening her and preventing her from leaving.

      0/10 would not recommend.

  10. StewartWhite Silver badge

    Threats and Abuse <> "Free Speech"

    It's an awful story and I'm glad that the violent lunatic in question is now behind bars.

    The worst I've had happen to me long ago was when somebody rang up to ask for some unauthorised software to be installed on his PC "immediately".

    When I explained that I couldn't do that I got a whole stream of four letter words in response. I've heard far worse on the football pitch so it doesn't actually affect me but it meant I could say to him "If you carry on swearing I will put the phone down". This enraged him even more such that the insults become more colourful still and I did indeed put the phone down.

    A minute later he then phoned my boss to complain that I put the phone down on him. When my boss asked why, he said that I didn't like being sworn at. My boss agreed my action was reasonable at which point he started swearing at my boss as well... Who then put the phone down on him.

    The pillock in question wasn't quite stupid enough to raise this further up the line but he was fired and taken to court for defrauding the organisation shortly thereafter so he did at least get his comeuppance.

  11. I Am Spartacus
    Mushroom

    Violence threatened against me.

    This is from London, UK.

    My team had scheduled a major, non-reversable, email update. Well, more of a total email system replacement. We were taking out Lotus Notes and replacing it with a cloud based highly specialised piece of software. We had tested this for months. It was a one way process and it would take some time. As we were a global company with offices in the far east, US and London, the users asked that we do the change over during the day. This way London would face any issues first and handle them

    It was explained that this would be a total email shutdown for about 120 minutes. That is, no email in or out whilst the conversion software ran. This was accepted. So we duly got the software team to fly in and do the prep work.

    On the day, I walked round all the users and warned them that email would go out at 10am. I told them at 8am, 8:30, 9:00, 9:30 and at 9:50 i asked if there was any reason not tp go ahead. This was our GO/NO GO final call, and all London teams said GO.

    Email was shutdown. 15 minutes later the effluent hit the air conditioning, as a company asset was under attack from a nation state. No explanatons here, just that live shots were fired and lives were in danger. Cue the team going postal. It sems that the "total email will be shut down" message failed to register that this also meant Blackberry emails.

    Senior person on the desk totally lost it. Stormed over to me and told me to get emails back on line: As in right that moment. I explained, as per our copious briefings to which he has signed his acceptance (yes, phyiscal signatures) we could not restore emails with out risk of lost messages. He stood, right in my face and threatened to break my arms and legs if I did not restore emails. This was in front of my manager and my team. He was perfectly capable of carrying out this threat. But there was nothing I could do at this point. Not without compromising email integrity, which was sacrosanct.

    I played it down. Told him I was limited on what I could do. He stormed off, leaving a trailed of F bombs behind him. My immediate superior asked me what I was going to do. "Absolutely nothing because there is nothing I can do. It will blow over". He wasn't happy, but I asked him not to report this to HR.

    The technical team, who witnessed this and were quaking themselves, busied themselves and got the system restored less than 30 minutes later, about 45 minutes before when we said. So I was able to tell my protagonist that we listened, acted and got the comms back up. He accepted that we had done our best, appologised, and paid for drinks and food in the local bar late until the night.

    I can laugh about it now, but it was a bit scary at the time.

  12. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge

    Only comment :

    Yes

  13. ColinPa

    guns!

    One colleague went to a conference in Dallas. He checked in, went to his room. He started to unpack, and opened the window to the outside world. A few minutes later a mirror in his room shattered. A "Drive by" had taken a pot shot at the hotel and into his room. He asked to be moved to a room on the top floor of the hotel.

    A friend who worked in a "secure" company had an American colleague come to the UK on business - it was the American's first trip, so there were discussions like - yes, you need a passport.

    One of the questions from the American, was "will there be somewhere to store my piece when in meetings?" After a few clarifying questions, my friend had to explain that you cannot bring your gun to the UK.

    The American was persuaded not to fly to the UK, hire a car and drive 6 hours to the town where the meetings where. He might have been a lethal weapon. The American later admitted that NOT driving in the UK was a very good idea.

  14. Blackjack Silver badge

    A huge problem is when the abuser is the employer itself.

    Be it violence, verbal or sexual abuse, people fear that reporting it will lead to losing their job.

    Violence by an abuser tends to escalate because they have got away with it so far so they do worse and then they do even worse.

    No job is worth your life or health, mental or otherwise.

    If you fear reporting because you have others that depend on you, you won't be able to keep helping them if you die.

    So if you won't seek help for yourself, do it for your loved ones because they too are victims, even if it may not be directly.

  15. Noodle

    Never been threatened in my tech career but in an earlier life working late nights in a call center for a pizza delivery chain in London, threats were all too common. You would not believe how angry people can get over a thin bit of bread covered in cheese and tomato.

    1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

      You would not believe how angry people can get over a thin bit of bread covered in cheese and tomato.

      I can, especially when the discussion about toppings goes into pineapple territory.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I had a colleague in a Major UK University who was just unpleasant when sober but who, when drunk, was aggressive and threatened violence against anyone who crossed him. He'd been like that for so long that nobody paid much attention - perhaps because he had never actually thumped anyone.

    Kicker: He was also a mainstay of the local Quaker meeting. Elder and leader/teacher of the children's meeting.

  17. JimC

    My experience of Violence threats - and a happy ending

    My employer decided to withdraw 24 hour access to the headquarters building and have no security on site.

    A few weeks later I had a major problem which would have meant 3 figures of staff unable to work on Monday morning. Failed to fix it within the new working hours. Notified security I was going to overrun. It turned out that the Facilities management management had given the security staff no instructions whatsoever about what to do in an emergency situation, and no escalation, so the poor chap - and of course security guards are rarely chosen for independant thinking or given significant authority - had absolutely no idea what to do. So he fell back on threats of violence if I didn't vacate the building with the work incomplete.

    Fortunately my line management was contactable, so I got them to get things sorted out, and some while later a very apologetic - to say the least - security guard came to see me to confirm I was clear to stay until the work was finished.

    The happy ending? On Monday I passed up through my management that I wanted no repercussions or action on the security guard at all, because I felt the fault was completely with his line management. As a result I was thereafter in extremely good odour with building security, which proved to be very handy over the next few years.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    HR has a bad habit of ignoring reports

    "If you experience threats of violence in the workplace, report it to your employer and do not hesitate to call emergency services if you feel in immediate danger.

    If your employer is not supportive, file a complaint with the relevant authorities"

    And find nothing still gets done. An example. Ex copper signs up to old place of work. He was an ex copper for a reason. It was in the papers, sexual misconduct yet they hired him anyway. He was allowed to quit the police before being fired.

    So what role did they put him in? Benefit fraud where he'd have access to data he should never have had access to because of his history.

    This went on for years. We find out later during those years complaints were put into HR with fuck all being done.

    He then somehow gets a new role. Manager of customer services. AGAIN, another position he should have never been in with access to data he should never have had. A massive failing of DBS checks (clearly none were done). With his past history known.

    Finally, but again, a few years later it FINALLY comes to a head. More complaints are put in but finally someone who has fucking sense and morals is in a position to push him out. They finally fire him or ask him to leave.

    About a year later he's given a suspended sentence for sexual assault. Same shit that was reported to the business but HR sat on it. Another year later he goes to prison for 3 years for same sexual assault he was kicked out the police for. I still put a lot of this on HR. Repeated complaints ignored over the years.

    So, sadly, you can report and I still encourage people to do so. But if you work in place thats a "boys club" mentality, don't expect anything to ever get done.

  19. SamanthaFA

    worked for a software house in the late 90's where the two directors were husband and wife and frequently at loggerheads, hubby in particluar was v shouty/sweary and it made for a rotten working environment at times. one time, wifey attempted to shut hubby up by ramming a biro up his nostril!

  20. Andy in Sydney

    In the early 2000’s, I landed a job as network and systems manager for a rapidly growing B2B organisation. The IT manager was a “quirky” fellow, as I found out on my first day when we went into the city to be introduced to one of our remote offices. After the walk around and meet and greet, he said, well, how about a drink to celebrate the new job. I said sure, as it was almost the end of the workday. My new boss said, “Great, I am a VIP member of a well-known gentlemen's club, let me buy you a drink, and the first lap dance is on me” I thought it was just a strange joke, but he was dead serious. I turned down the offer and went straight home.

    A few months later, he and I were working late at night on a hardware upgrade in the head office. I went out to grab some dinner. On my return, I could hear him yelling at what I thought were at least 2 other people. Thinking we had intruders, I rushed to the server room and, on looking through the glass wall, saw him holding a butterfly knife in his hand, having a screaming argument with himself (and I’m guessing 2 of the many voices in his head).

    I backed out of the office, trying to remain unseen and drove straight home. I called the business owner, explained what was happening, and said I would not return to the office until the IT manager had left. That manager was shortly after sent on a “special project” for which he never returned.

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