Ghost gun legislation casts shadow over 3D printing

State and federal lawmakers have stepped up their efforts to prevent the creation of 3D printed guns. But Adafruit, a maker of electronics kits, warns that the proposed legislation is so broad it threatens everyone involved in open source manufacturing and technology education. Recent bills attempting to grapple with this …

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with scanning ...

The problem with scanning all of our data, on our devices, for CSAM is ....

oh, wait. Wrong issue. Or is it?..

About that "slippery slope"

[whitepines]

Re: The problem with scanning ...

This is rapidly reaching the point where technology itself is harmful, due to chilling effects and artificial limitations. Especially with AI in the mix.

If the only safe option is to avoid technology, should all technology be banned to enhance the greater social good?

[Eecahmap]

Re: The problem with scanning ...

Enter Pournelle's CoDominium.

[NoneSuch]

Re: The problem with scanning ...

If we'd listened to the government and allowed full back doors into all of our software and hardware, the power that be could tell us what is safe to read or 3D Print...

...said no one ever...

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The problem with scanning ...

the CoDo is not nearly as analogous as Orson Scott Card's Memory of Earth series. they even prevented the wheel from being re-invented even though they actually have higher technologies that allow things like magnetic hovercraft levitation for wheelchairs.

"Humanity has lived for 40 million years on a planet called Harmony, after leaving an Earth that has been destroyed by human conflict. In order not to repeat the mistakes that led to the destruction of civilization on Earth, a computer, known as the Oversoul, was left as guardian of this planet.

Its main mission was to prevent humans from developing technologies that could make wars a global affair."

[Infused]

Re: The problem with scanning ...

We seem to have politicians these days who have no understanding of what is & isn't possible with technology legislation. They seem indifferent to the inconvenience they are causing everyone. Maybe they should abolish Section 230 & crash the American economy as well before people stop voting for them.

[Phil O'Sophical]

Re: The problem with scanning ...

"these days"? It has always been so.

[Korev]

Re: The problem with scanning ...

> If the only safe option is to avoid technology, should all technology be banned to enhance the greater social good?

Nah, this is America so the default reaction is Thoughts and Prayers

[Pen-y-gors]

Maybe...

Start by banning the sale of most sorts of guns in the state and city? Possession is fine (under the Constitution*), you just can't buy one. Inheriting granpappy's hunting rifle is fine, obvs.

There are approx 4,000,000 'legal' guns in NY state. Will a few plastic ones make a difference?

* What Dat?

[CountCadaver]

Re: Maybe...

Or side step the constitution - it says keep or bear arms, it says nothing about ammunition nor about propellant charges. If the courts can ignore "as part of a well regulated militia" then this just a sensible response to conservative judges meddling with semantics.

So just ban possession of ammunition or institute a $500 per round tax on all ammunition in our your possession (whether purchased in or out of state)

Then tack on a very large fine /.jail time for tax evasion / making false declarations on an ammunition possession form.

[Marty McFly]

Re: Maybe...

That's been tried before, ya know.

American Revolution. Gun powder was a far more dangerous & unpredictable thing. At the edge of town as a powder house were each family stored their gun powder. Thus if the powder house blew up, it did not destroy the houses in town. The British took to destroying powder houses since they could not disarm the populace.

That act of attempted disarmament led to the creation of the 2nd Amendment.

[SundogUK]

Re: Maybe...

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Making it illegal to buy firearms definitely infringes the right to keep and bear.

[Wang Cores]

The same alienated youths that cut people up or throw acid in people's faces in Airstrip One would be doing shootings here in the Burger Reich and vice versa.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Maybe...

"There are approx 4,000,000 'legal' guns in NY state. Will a few plastic ones make a difference?"

There's also loads of stolen firearms made by proper manufacturers that are far less bother than trying to 3D print something that will work reliably. The stolen guns can be less expensive as well.

Anybody that's built a 3D printed assembly with moving parts knows how janky they can be and how much hand-fitting it takes. Just getting the sinusoidal repleneration to balance properly without side fumbling is a real chore due to the low volume of pre-framulated Amerlite that can be put into 3D filament.

[Claptrap314]

Re: Maybe...

You use a turbo encabulator for that, and I claim my $5.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Maybe...

"You use a turbo encabulator for that, and I claim my $5."

I'll do better and stand you to a pint for spotting the reference.

[cyberdemon]

So restrict ammo?

FFS. A "ghost gun" is little more than a pipe. To make ammo on the other hand, requires explosives, of the same sort required to make a.. Bomb.

It's as daft as banning pipes, just in case someone makes a pipe bomb.

The dangerous bit is the explosive.. So regulate that?

[Pickle Rick]

Re: So restrict ammo?

Spot on. I've seen plans for pistol builds that comprise no more than a some pipe and a few screws - I'd want to test that about as much as I would a printed gun (not high on my list of "safe things to do").

On your point, here in the UK it's not all that difficult to buy an illegal firearm, ammo on the other hand is very much more difficult.

[Eric 9001]

Re: So restrict ammo?

Provided hardware stores exists (or dumped metal machines, like dumped cars are available), it will always be possible for criminals to make a firearm that works with or without ammo - it's just a question of whether the criminal wants to put the time and effort in.

A criminal could also make ammo (decent ammo is just as hard to manufacture as a decent firearm) - but a typical pipe firearm instead just packs the barrel with black powder.

Black powder is trivial to manufacture, as that is needed to make it is saltpeter, charcoal and (optionally) sulfur, which are all readily available (restricting saltpeter won't achieve much either, as it can inefficiently be made from urine).

A fully 3D printed firearm will fire at most a few shots of .22 before splitting open, as "surprisingly", plastic is terrible at containing shockwaves, even with a brass case mostly containing it (trying to contain a larger amount of propellant with plastic will lead to it blowing up in the shooters face).

This is yet another case of a government deciding to pass new laws, rather than utilizing existing laws.

A requirement that what 3D printers can print is restricted by proprietary software that is spyware, is quite odd - it seems there's future plans for something completely unrelated.

[Kevin Johnston]

Re: So restrict ammo?

Back in the 'dim and distant' I was a Special Constable and as part of the training we had a lecture from a Firearms officer. He had brought in a wide range of homemade firearms including one based on a number of steel 'spacer' tubes packed into a tin can which was then back-filled with resin. Firing was all electric with a battery, rotary switch and filament igniters for the homemade black powder charge but the maker got a Darwin Award as his soldering was not good and when he fired it nothing happened until he looked into the barrel.

As above, how do you regulate ANY of that?

[Pete Sdev]

Re: So restrict ammo?

This is why there shouldn't be regulation - for anybody "courageous" enough to use a 3D-printed (plastic!) firearm, the problem will *handily* take care of itself in most cases.

[rg287]

Re: So restrict ammo?

As above, how do you regulate ANY of that?

People forget that in the 1800s, Birmingham (specifically, the "Gun Quarter") accounted for half the world's firearm production. No 3D printing or 5-axis CNC back then. Mostly artisan artificers making components for the likes of BSA in small workshops.

Any Design & Technology teacher with a "resistant materials" angle (as opposed to textiles or one of the other DT sub-disciplines) should be able to knock up a handgun on a school lathe with a little thought. Some criminal gangs have found it easier to just set up their own manufactories than to smuggle firearms into the country.

One of the consequences of the UK moving away from a manufacturing-based economy to services is that people have less connection to fabrication and engineering. There are fewer men-in-sheds with a home lathe knocking out bits and bobs for themselves, and consequently people think this is some dark magic, when in fact it's very straightforward for people to turn that set of skills to firearms.

Which is not to say that 3D printing doesn't lower the bar... but making a firearm that won't blow up in your hand either requires a very good 3D printer and the skills to set it up, or else a modest bench-top lathe and a few hand tools.

You literally can't regulate any of that unless we license the ownership of lathes, files and metal bar/stock.

The tricky part is actually the ammunition. Stamping brass casings is pretty specialist - it's a very deep extrusion. Primers are also very tricky to make and handle without blowing yourself up. Casting bullets is straightforward enough, and bulk powder is also doable, which is why some of the home-mades involve a single shot with a battery to ignite the powder rather than using a cartridge.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: So restrict ammo?

One of the consequences of the UK moving away from a manufacturing-based economy to services is that people have less connection to fabrication and engineering. There are fewer men-in-sheds with a home lathe knocking out bits and bobs for themselves, and consequently people think this is some dark magic, when in fact it's very straightforward for people to turn that set of skills to firearms.

This is one of the reasons why I looked to the US to create a machinists school. The UK went all 'Learn to Code' and not 'Learn to Craft', which I think is sad when it's never been easier to be a maker of things. 3D printing and CNC has made it easy to prototype things, that may turn into products and export revenues, but there's little in the way of support in the UK. Plus with the decline of manufacturing, fewer opportunities and employment for people like master machinists, tool & die or pattern makers etc.

This is also a problem in the US, so things like hydraulic presses are easy to buy, although they may be Chinese machines. But to do useful things, they need dies which need specialist skills to make .Or just send CAD files to China and have the dies made there in a couple of weeks. The US does have prototyping or one-off services, eg the sponsor of one of my favorite YT channels-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPksDeGoh4E

and

https://sendcutsend.com/

And going back to firearms, yep, they're easy to make.. If you don't mind breaking the law, which this proposal will do virtually nothing to change. Existing laws also pretty much apply. Get caught with an illegal firearm in the UK and it's a mandatory 5yrs in jail for possession, and 5yrs for possession of ammunition. Not sure if that could mean consecutive if caught with a loaded firearm, but UK legislation is pretty simple in defining what firearms are, and it catches 3D printed firearms as well. US laws are similar, but more complicated, so felons with firearms get additional charges and offences with firearms involved get additional charges, or uplifts, eg robbery vs armed robbery. Plus the usual thing with the US having so many firearms in circulation that it seems easy for criminals to obtain firearms. The proposed law change won't alter this, and NY & NYC already have both strict gun controls and pretty high numbers of legally held firearms.

[MachDiamond]

Re: So restrict ammo?

"A requirement that what 3D printers can print is restricted by proprietary software that is spyware, is quite odd"

Especially when the hardware is mainly an interpreter to take G-code and output stepper or servo motor controls. There's all sorts of single board computers with ready made code for doing that. I keep going back and forth on modifying my mill/lathe for CNC as it's a really nice one worth money as is. Maybe I can find a cheap mill/drill and modify that for a couple of hundred. I have 3 filament printers I've picked up on the cheap with another on my eBay watch list that I might buy as the price is really good and I can pick it up local. The parts as spares make it a good deal. I don't need a whole other functioning printer at this point.

[MachDiamond]

Re: So restrict ammo?

"I'd want to test that about as much as I would a printed gun "

The printed parts are just the "furniture". The business parts are metal or there would be many more dead people hanging about in crematoriums or hospital emergency rooms.

[HereIAmJH]

Re: So restrict ammo?

The dangerous bit is the explosive.. So regulate that?

This is the kind of thinking that has nearly killed the model rocketry hobby. And it's not going to stop the manufacture of gunpowder (charcoal, saltpeter, sulfur). Are we going to ban fertilizer too?

[stiine]

Re: So restrict ammo?

Only in Oklahoma.

[LogicGate]

Re: So restrict ammo?

Ban printing guns and parts thereof: impractical

Ban gun propellant: Imparctical

Ban gun projectiles: Impractical

... How about putting some controls on gun posession?

Ooh.. You can not do that just in case the government goes all authoritarian and puts masked and armed goons without identification on the streets and starts to arrest, dissapear and execute people on the streets! Second Amendment!!

YOU. ARE. SO. SCREWED!

[MachDiamond]

Re: So restrict ammo?

"Ooh.. You can not do that just in case the government goes all authoritarian and puts masked and armed goons without identification on the streets and starts to arrest, dissapear and execute people on the streets! Second Amendment!!"

Oh yes, trying to arrest people with active deportation orders is so unfair. But that's a different discussion.

The problem are the judges/legal system that just slaps a shooters hand, says "bad dog" and pushes them back out on the street. De-fund police departments and going after gun crime gets more difficult.

The hysteria on the MSM is not helping either. If a legal gun owner is arrested for something, they'll publish an inventory of everything they have and gasp at the amount of ammunition they have. Yes, nobody "needs" a few thousand rounds on hand other than there being problems buying any when the NOAA contracts and other government agency contracts are being filled for pallets upon pallets of ammo. It's also easy to burn up a couple of hundred rounds of .22 during a day of plinking cans/targets. It's the most popular ammo being super cheap and low power enough for just about anybody to use. One buys it as it's available and when it's on sale.

If you are an enthusiast, having a few different firearms is not unusual. A .22 for varmits, a shotgun for birding, different rifles for different game, etc. Horses for courses. I don't acknowledge the classification of "assault rifle" as that's more of a usage statement, but an AR style rifle with a large capacity magazine is useful for going after wild hogs. It can take a bunch of rounds to put them down and they can be very dangerous. They are also a big problem in some agricultural areas and will destroy whole fields of crops in short order.

[LogicGate]

Re: So restrict ammo?

"Oh yes, trying to arrest people with active deportation orders is so unfair. But that's a different discussion"

The problem with that sentence is that it is de-coupled from reality. Mr. Miller has set quotas in his effort to make the USA white again.

Then he has hired large numbers of people that would never get a job in real law enforcement and given them little to no background checking, training or supervision.

These guys are now roaming the streets looking for colored people to take. They are not going after the worst of the worst. That would be too much work. Instead they are going for anyone that they can get, starting at home depots, building sites and farm fields.

The NRA argument about the 2nd amendment dies on January 6, when they did not stand up to protect the democracy. Sadly, a number of those parttaking in January 6 are now roaming the streets with masks, weapons and no ID.

As for gun control: this is not an all or nothing issue. I have a close relative lives in a house filled to the brim with firearms (in varous states of restauration). They are all registered (I believe the muzzle loading flintlocks do not require registration) and stored securely. The relative has all required licences, and the police has the right to come knocking inspect the state of said firearms. This does not make his country of residence a police state, but it makes gun crime a much more seldom occurence. A shooter would not just get a slap on the hand, a "bad dog" and be returned to the street. At the same time, criminals are not put in jail just for punishment, but also into a system that tries to avoid repeat offences. On a side note, becoming a police officer is a university level education taking ca. 5 years.

Personally, I like aircraft (Airbore), I like historic aircraft, I like military aircraft. I do NOT feel that I need the right to own and operate armed ex military aircraft in order to pursue my hobby. In the same way, I enjoy plinking at a target with a KAR 98 or similar, but I do not feel that I need the right to own a large magazine semi-or fully automatic weapon. Guns, like cars and aircraft have a grat potential for misuse, guns maybe more so.

Living in a society where the goal is for everyone to get through the day safely and freely, I think some gun control is needed in the same way as the operation of cars and aircraft has requirements and restrictions. Otherwise you end up in society of fear, where police go to work fearing the populace and vice versa. -this is not freedom.

[LogicGate]

Re: So restrict ammo?

However,

as my previous post indicated:

The "controls" on 3d printing mentioned in the article are unworkable and not rooted in reality.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: So restrict ammo?

"Are we going to ban fertilizer too?"

Here in North it *is* banned. You need to have a licence to buy any and you can get that only if you own a farm.

Absolutely stupid when every hardware store in countryside has palletloads of it outside. Any criminal can steal as much they want with zero effort.

But can't buy any. Brilliant.

[CountCadaver]

Re: So restrict ammo?

Or banning trenchcoats to prevent school shootings

[MachDiamond]

Re: So restrict ammo?

"Or banning trenchcoats to prevent school shootings"

Hoodies. That's the international uniform of the criminal class.

Police should stop and search anybody in a hoodie in the middle of summer with the hood up. That and pants at half-mast.

[MachDiamond]

Re: So restrict ammo?

"The dangerous bit is the explosive.. So regulate that?"

Explosives aren't that hard, although you really don't want people learning the craft in a residential neighborhood. Just recently there was a professional plant that isn't there anymore. The entire site swept clean of everything including the staff.

I caused some concern in school when I wrote a paper for chemistry class detailing a few explosives that could be made with household chemicals. Not original work, mind you. The teacher was happy to find out I hadn't actually tried to make any of them as one was very twitchy and another put off dangerous fumes. As a penance, I had to research the chemistry going on in those cocktails. It did get me access to some books I'd have otherwise been shielded from reading. The teacher and I caused non-explosive mayhem after that. Did you know there's a ketone that smells exceedingly like buttered popcorn? It's complicated brew up and should never be applied to building HVAC filters.

[Snow Hill Island]

This sort of legislation completely misses the point that 3D printers are actually dumb tools. - They don't know what they are making because all they have to do (for FDM machines) is extrude a narrow bead of plastic along a 3D path. My 3D printer (an old prusa) has just enough hardware to do this. To do a pretty awful job of recognising whether it's printing a gun part, i would need at least four or five more orders of magnitude computing power than it currently has.

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather people didn't own or make guns. (UK based here), but you might as well mandate that a manual lathe can't be used to make a longitudinal hole in a piece of bar stock, because there's no way of guaranteeing that any given arbitrary 3D CAD file isn't part of a makeshift firearm when you put it together with other parts.

[SVD_NL]

RE: 3D printers are actually dumb tools

I got an old Ender 3 from a friend, i can attest to how dumb they are (especially older models). The most intelligence that it can show is that it stops moving when it reaches a stop (and even that doesn't work in some cases).

Working on the assumption that this would be an effective and sensible law (which it isn't), and privacy doesn't matter (it actually doesn't matter to the US government), it would make way more sense to move this restriction to the software side, right? More processing power available, network connectivity to check for a db of known firearm models, etc.

And i fully agree with you, the moment you start banning or restricting general-purpose tools, you might as well ban every tool known to man.

[LogicGate]

Re: RE: 3D printers are actually dumb tools

During WW2 the Norwegian resistance produced sten-guns in occupied Norway. The production was distributed to multiple workshops, and often described as "parts for shovels", "bed-springs" and similar.

Only the finished product could reliably be identified as a weapon.

I wish lawmakers would have some subject matter knowledge about the laws that they are making. This is obviously not the case, which means that they should be required to "listen to the experts". Sadly, listening to experts is often considered a failure of loyalty in today's political environment.

[SVD_NL]

Re: RE: 3D printers are actually dumb tools

Yes! Same for the Błyskawica submachine gun (Wikipedia), a Sten clone produced in occupied Poland, where each part was disguised as a part for something else. (I believe the buttstock was supposed to be a microwave door handle for example).

I highly recommend the Forgotten Weapons episode (YouTube) on that one.

[LogicGate]

Re: RE: 3D printers are actually dumb tools

If the buttstock was supposed to be a microwave door handle, then this would have been VERY interesting to the Germans, since the cavity magnetron, which made microwave ovens possible, were a key part to the top secret british airborne radar design :)

[M.V. Lipvig]

Re: RE: 3D printers are actually dumb tools

Yup. A more logical part would be a regular oven handle. A pair of them screwed together would make a servicable rifle butt.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: RE: 3D printers are actually dumb tools

Working on the assumption that this would be an effective and sensible law (which it isn't), and privacy doesn't matter (it actually doesn't matter to the US government), it would make way more sense to move this restriction to the software side, right? More processing power available, network connectivity to check for a db of known firearm models, etc.

Smoothbrains want to ban smoothbores because tubes are evil, and rifled barrels would, I guess be hard to print or CNC successfully. So to make those, you need a lathe and a rifling button, which AFAIK is already an NFA item. But having looked at setting up a machinists school, one issue I found was the number of 3D printers and some CNC tools that insist on cloudybollocks for their software. Which is one of those dumb technology issues, ie a dependency on the 'cloud' to function. Which also had some knock-on issues, like wanting to be able to make some money making parts for others, which would often be under NDA. Which generally means designs for those parts can't be shared, and with stuff in the 'cloud', can't meet those NDAs.

And a special circle of hell should be machined for Autodesk, which combined cloud dependencies with things like per-part licence fees for rendering parts. Last I looked, SolidWorks had a saner model where you just rent a licence and can then run on standalone hardware and just needed network for licence checks & updates. But most hobby CNC & 3D printers locked users into cloud garbage, with or without addition fees for using hardware you thought you'd bought.

But firearms were also a concern, ie I didn't want students making parts that would put me in jail for not having an FFL. Expectation was staff could supervise & prevent that, or we could just get an FFL and that's not that expensive, and just means paperwork for any NFA items .Which is also an issue with this proposal, ie the law specifies mostly assemblies, not so much individual components. So it'd be lawful to machine a trigger, but not assemble that into a trigger group with an auto-sear. Which is going to be harder to check in software, and could generate false positives and waste time.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: RE: 3D printers are actually dumb tools

Rifling buttons are not at all restricted in the USA, let alone any sort of NFA item. Prior to the recent unpleasantness, Ukraine was a common supplier for such things to gun hobbyists.

Also its probably a good thing you never set this shop up as your understanding of FFL and NFA requirements would have needed considerable realignment.

Totally agree about Autodesk however.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: RE: 3D printers are actually dumb tools

Also its probably a good thing you never set this shop up as your understanding of FFL and NFA requirements would have needed considerable realignment.

Or I'd learn the laws, especially when there are differences between state and federal regulations. So 27 CFR § 478.145 says I, as an individual could make my own firearm, providing that complies with state and FFL. However, if my 501c(3) machine school made it, then that wouldn't be me as an individual, so the shop would almost certainly need an FFL to be safe. Hmm, it's almost as though I'd looked into the legality before.

But also other than shielding myself, not something I figured I'd ever want to do, other than perhaps making an assault flintlock by fitting one with the dreaded 'black rifle' furniture and doing something the SCA probably never intended. I've never shot a black powder firearm (or state dependending, not firearm). Otherwise my interest was mostly relocating to the US for LRR, and even if I had the machines, I rather doubt I'd be able to build a better barrel than say, Walther.. Even if I ended up with a fancier shed than Messrs Cooper & Kay.

(wonder if this law revision would also ban SDI and their scammy courses?)

[MachDiamond]

Re: RE: 3D printers are actually dumb tools

"So it'd be lawful to machine a trigger, but not assemble that into a trigger group with an auto-sear."

Yes, but the dodge has been buying something 80% done (the hard bits) and just doing a bit of finishing. I've made a couple of products in kit form (rocket stands) where the parts were run on a CNC router, rounded over on router table and left to sand and finish by the buyer. I could have left the parts in a skeleton from the CNC router and the buyer would need to cut the tabs and then do the finishing. A human could see the parts in the matrix, but we are wired for pattern recognition. I could have done rifle stocks in a similar way with a v-groove bit used to outline where other cutting needed to be done. It would take a pretty smart system to sort out what the part was.

[MachDiamond]

Re: RE: 3D printers are actually dumb tools

"And i fully agree with you, the moment you start banning or restricting general-purpose tools, you might as well ban every tool known to man."

There are people that make money by hand filing guns from a lump of metal. Damn good craftsmanship too, but takes ages.

[may_i]

Idiocy

First off, this dumber than shit idea would only affect USAsians, so Adafruit are off the mark saying "so broad it threatens everyone involved". The correct interpretation is that it affects everyone in the USA. The rest of the world will quite happily continue to use 3D printers without inserted spyware.

As to the concept itself, it's another example of stupid politicians who understand nothing trying to appear to be doing something.

At this point, I really couldn't care less what politicians in the USA think or do - the vast majority of them should be taken outside and shot.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Idiocy

Why take them outside first? Just wear earplugs.

[I could be a dog really]

Re: Idiocy

If it affects USAsians then it affects everyone - didn't you get that memo ?

It's a bit like DMCA and DVD decrypting being illegal only affects USAsians - it doesn't just affect them. I caused "issues" like having to make sure all development work took place outside of the USA, and it affected the ability of distributions to include the code - simply because they don't want to have to build USA-specific versions without it, and many developers are in the USA. Just stop and think about that for a moment ...

Say you are a developer who's contributed to a particular project, and lets say that project is actually based outside the US. You might have had nothing at all to do with the relevant functions, but if that project makes anything in the USA available to USAsians, then potentially the authorities might come after you for any failings. You only need to look at events over recent months to see that being on the wrong end of attention from government agents can be very inconvenient, uncomfortable, or even fatal. So project has designs for a printer (isn't there one where all the custom parts have a 3D model so you can ask a mate to print them for you ?), and some software to make it work, and if that design makes it's way to the USA then you risk having government agents kicking your front door in.

So, that still only affects USAsians right ? Wrong, anyone else involved in the project risks being on an "arrest on entry for terrorism" list. Most won't have any interest in going to the USA, but some might, some might be asked to go there for their day job, whatever.

And don't forget the providers hosting the project website with it's hardware designs and software - that's going to be a target for US authorities as well - so best avoid any that have any involvement/presence in the US at all (so that's most of them then !)

[may_i]

Re: Idiocy

Yeah, the USA tried imposing their laws on Jon Lech Johansen in Norway. That worked out well for them didn't it?

[MachDiamond]

Re: Idiocy

"Yeah, the USA tried imposing their laws on Jon Lech Johansen in Norway. That worked out well for them didn't it?"

Well, if you'd like to cherry pick cases the list could be very long for things where the US bullying did let them get their way.

Most UK banks will not open an account for a USAin as they'd be required to submit a whole stack of paperwork and continue to do so for years to the US. Of course, if they'd not mind being banned from the SWIFT transfer system, they wouldn't need to take any notice of the requirement. Some banks will and they'll also charge a special fee.

For those on work assignments, it's a pain in the arse. If somebody goes back and forth for family, businesses interests or has a sweetheart, it's handy to have a local bank account for things. Well, it used to be. Even Switzerland capitulated and those famed numbered accounts don't exist anymore. I happen to know a couple that got popped for tucking some money away in Switzerland and had to do time, lost their business, etc. It was post US-tax money, but the IRS wanted a piece of any interest those accounts earned too.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Idiocy

"The rest of the world will quite happily continue to use 3D printers without inserted spyware."

And Aliexpress would add replacement PCBs to their offerings to retrofit into a monitored 3D printer or provide the electronic gubbins to update an old Prusa or Ender.

There's no value in passing laws that nobody will follow and/or are so easy to circumvent. It's like the US Congress spending millions holding inquiries about pro athletes taking performance enhancing drugs. Duh, of course they are. Who cares? Couldn't have Congress taken up some better issue to get stuck into?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Idiocy

So, you're willing to pay for their development of parallel images so they can not apply the USAian rules to non-US software?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bark. Wrong Tree.

Adafruit's reservations ring true and are entirely reasonable.

Moreover, how many crimes have been committed with 3D-printed firearms as opposed to traditionally-manufactured firearms? It sounds more like the legislators' zeal comes from traditional arms manufacurers getting in their ear.

[Anonymous Coward]

And also ...

Louis Rossmann has covered this topic fairly well (on Youtube, as he does).

IIRC, his thoughts were that scanning for gun parts could only really work where:

a. 3D printers were permanently connected to the internet and their operation continuously monitored; and,

b. Open-source/user-modified 3D printing software was banned.

These are, of course, Bad Things (TM).

My memory may not be entirely correct, however, so best go and check out the videos for yourself: https://www.youtube.com/@rossmanngroup/featured

[Anonymous Coward]

Bonkers/Bollox

Apart from trying to implement some form of scanning feature into 3d printers, which is going to be a challenge since printers are often home made, or bought from a company and then easily customized with own electronics/software.

The realty important bits are not 3d printed unless you are extremely brave.

The receiver/frame where all the various bits fit into are what is 3d printed, but this could also be made from wood.

A break down:

Here's a breakdown of the main parts in a typical 3D-printed ghost gun (focusing on semi-automatic pistols or carbines in 9mm or similar calibers), what they're usually made from, and why:

Receiver/Frame (the serialized part on commercial guns; holds the trigger group, grip, magazine well, etc.)

→ 3D-printed plastic (most common; e.g., PLA+ or reinforced filaments for strength). This is the core "homemade" part in ghost gun builds — it's what avoids serialization.

Barrel (the tube that the bullet travels through; handles extreme pressure and heat)

→ Metal (steel tubing, often purchased ready-made, threaded, or DIY-rifled via ECM from stainless/steel stock). Plastic barrels fail quickly except in very low-power/single-shot designs.

Slide (in pistols; reciprocates to cycle the action, houses the extractor, sights, etc.)

→ Metal (machined steel or stainless; bought complete or as a kit). Rarely printed due to high stress/wear — some experimental metal-printed versions exist but aren't common in hobby builds.

Bolt/Bolt Carrier (in carbines like FGC-9; or equivalent moving part in pistols)

→ Metal (machined or welded steel; often from raw stock with added parts like ejector). Handles recoil and cycling forces.

Rails (front and rear; guide the slide/bolt movement)

→ Metal (CNC-machined aluminum or stainless steel; sold in "rail kits" specifically for printed frames). Critical for alignment and durability.

Locking Block (in Glock-style designs; supports the barrel during firing)

→ Metal (17-4 stainless steel or similar; heat-treated for strength). Printed versions wear out fast, so metal replacements are standard.

Trigger Group/Internals (trigger, trigger bar, sear, disconnector, hammer/striker, springs, pins)

→ Mostly metal/commercial (often from Glock/AR parts kits — trigger housing might be printed in some designs, but springs, pins, and small metal bits are bought). AR-style fire control groups are common in carbines like FGC-9.

Recoil Spring Assembly (absorbs recoil energy)

→ Metal spring + guide rod (steel or purchased Glock/compatible part).

Magazine (holds ammunition)

→ Usually commercial metal/polymer (Glock mags or printed high-capacity ones with metal feed lips/springs for reliability).

Small Hardware (pins, screws, set screws, shaft collars, ejector, firing pin, extractor)

→ Metal (fasteners from hardware stores, AliExpress, or gun parts suppliers; firing pin is almost always metal like a nail or purchased part).

Other (stock/grip extensions, sights, charging handle in carbines)

→ Mix: 3D-printed plastic for custom stocks/grips; metal for sights or handles.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Bonkers/Bollox

In most countries around the world, the barrel, frame, trigger group, and in some cases, even the magazine are considered firearm parts, and require a license or certificate with which to purchase and possess.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Bonkers/Bollox

But not in the US of A...

[Mishak]

Firmware

I guess the next thing is the firmware, a lot of which is based on opensource, will have to be locked to the controller so that it can't be "updated"?

And then the controller will have to be tied to the printer so that it can't be replaced...

And then there will be the requirement to automatically update the scanning software...

Once again, the people proposing this have no idea of how "tech" actually works, or what it reasonable or realistic.

[Korev]

Re: Firmware

And then the companies running the servers will either get bored of hosting it or go bankrupt meaning your expensive toy becomes an ornament

The likely outcome -->

[M.V. Lipvig]

Re: Firmware

You mean they wouldn't do that anyway? Sell printers, collect fees, when X number of printers have sold abandon the company, but collect fees anyway until it crashes, then bankruptcy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting problem

Charlie Stross' "Rule 34" extrapolates 3D printing capabilities a few decades into the future for some disturbing possibilities.

The only gunmaking innovation that I saw which takes 3D printing a level above the hacksaw and handfile is making shaped mandrels for electro chemical machining of rifling grooves.

[Fonant]

Hang on a minute!

I thought that Americans liked guns? They certainly seem to have a lot of them.

Is this really about protecting the profits of gun manufacturers and dealers, perhaps?

[mark l 2]

Guns don't kill people, 3D printers kill people!

[Anonymous Coward]

Depends how high the window is above the car park.

[Korev]

>Guns don't kill people, 3D printers kill people!

I thought it was rappers

[LogicGate]

Nope, it is cars that kill people.

This is why we have drivers licences, monitoring of car condition / maintenance, requied insurance etc.

Regulating guns like cars would be a huge step forwards.

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't automatically seize your car if your license, registration, or insurance lapse, they just stop allowing you to drive it on public roads.

[that one in the corner]

Follow the money

Who will *really* benefit from this?

Who would want to have 3D printers always online? And the right - nay, the duty - to scan every file before it is printed? And to have every printer registered? And to have a legal threat if you change the firmware to prevent any of this?

Perhaps the same people who want to make sure you only use their 3D printer supplies? And can now take every opportunity to enforce this[1].

And if the law is so broad it just *forces* them to branch out and offer the same services for CNC, why, isn't it just lucky that they are ready to offer youf CNC manufacturer some subscription software to rent. And who knows, maybe one day even hand tools![3]

[1] no refilling caddies, we've seen that QR code before and you've already used 175 metres from it; oops, no resetting that counter, naughty naughty. Ooh, we can reduce your fee (and the delay, which seems to have been getting so long recently, odd that) for scanning your arbitrary designs by offering you an advert for this pre-registered design, copyright us, for only a nominal amount on your monthly subscription (don't worry, if you drop the part into our print shredder (order one here <URL>) it will read the QR and remove the "continued usage of the part you made" fee from your subs[2]).

[2] What do you do with the shredded plastic? Just send it to us, with your empty caddy - no need for a credit card number, we have all that already - and we'll send it back for only 95% of the cost of new filament.

[3] A little bit of ML - oh, okay, we'll just use an LLM, why not - applied to your Workmate Watch's accelerometer as it talks to the RFID in the tool handle and we can calculate what you are making today.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: Follow the money

[2] What do you do with the shredded plastic? Just send it to us, with your empty caddy - no need for a credit card number, we have all that already - and we'll send it back for only 95% of the cost of new filament.

And perhaps charge a hazchem fee, if the plastic is this stuff-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7JperqVfXI

which is a deep dive into CF reinforced plastic that's supposed to make 3D prints stronger, but doesn't and adds a bunch more risks. I'd been curious if that would really work because I'd always thought that using carbon fibre for strength meant orienting fibres to give that. Not just adding chopped microfibres to plastic and charging a premium. But I also agree that some 3D printer manufacturers are probably going to copy the HP printer ink model. They already have you hooked with cloud dependencies, then subscriptions, then pay-per-print and charging arm+leg for consumables.

[billb175]

Re: Follow the money

Talk about not understanding the technology....

"Who would want to have 3D printers always online? And the right - nay, the duty - to scan every file before it is printed? And to have every printer registered? And to have a legal threat if you change the firmware to prevent any of this?"

But that is the way the industry has worked since its inception, often with the addition of mandatory maintenance contracts. It is only the sub $1000, mainly Chinese, consumer machines that are not expected to have online connections. Though that may be changing.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Follow the money

I once used my 3D printer while on generator power for an emergency repair. If my 3D printer was cloud DRM enforced I'd have had to wait until the utilities were fully restored.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Follow the money

"And if the law is so broad it just *forces* them to branch out and offer the same services for CNC, why, isn't it just lucky that they are ready to offer youf CNC manufacturer some subscription software to rent. And who knows, maybe one day even hand tools![3]"

The horse has already bolted. When I first got interested in 3D printing, it was all homebru. Shortly after there were some small shops building some fairly limited machines built from wood, some of them. Now there are all sorts with gobs of features, but still loads of parts if you'd like to build your own with some dedicated firmware products and loads of information.

I've had the idea of a product that would need a long/skinny 3D printer rather than a 210mm/300mm square platen. I have most of the parts other than some pieces of the structure that is common off-the-shelf stuff. The controller is rather old so I'd update that if I got serious.

Any company trying to pull an Authorized Bread model will not fare well unless they bring some super duper feature to the market that somebody doesn't knock off before the Kickstarter funding run ends.

[stiine]

Re: Follow the money

Look up Ivan Miranda on youtube, he converted a treadmill into a 3d printer so he could print a kayak. He also build a 3d printer large enough to print a full sized statue of himself and some auto parts.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Follow the money

"[2] What do you do with the shredded plastic? Just send it to us, with your empty caddy - no need for a credit card number, we have all that already - and we'll send it back for only 95% of the cost of new filament."

At first I kept my scraps thinking if I did a lot, I'd get an extruder and reform the filament. Now I just melt it down into blocks and use it for set-up material or stock for projects I need to machine rather than print. The extruder was far too expensive and fiddly to keep tuned up. Uniformity of the filament is very important.

[Anonymous Coward]

"with authorities saying a 3D-printed "ghost gun" recovered after his arrest was consistent with the weapon used."

Which is meaningless as they are Republican Nazis and lie about *everything*. So: If they really say that, it was a normal gun.

Yet another lie to get legislation they want.

How they know what kind of weapon was used? And they just "happen" to "find" a "3d-weapon". How convinient ... as planned.

[Jellied Eel]

Which is meaningless as they are Republican Nazis and lie about *everything*. So: If they really say that, it was a normal gun.

Ermm..

Last month, New York Governor Kathy Hochul announced the legislative proposals to combat 3D printed and illegal firearms.

Hochul is about as far from a Republican as you could get. But I thought Mangione used a Glock 19 with a home made/printed suppressor. But presumably didn't know what a Nielsen device is, so it didn't cycle properly.

[Anonymous Coward]

The ammosexuality is strong in this one.

[Wang Cores]

It's funny how everyone ignores that the police couldn't find a suppressor ("muffler") or the pistol when they inventoried his bag but suddenly a 3d printed handgun materialized after they get him in the station.

[itzman]

Er. Most printers run fairly open source software.

If you are serious about gun printing, you

- Take them off the Internet

- Reflash them with freeware code

- Run Linux for your CAD.

What you then have is a sandbox that no one knows about.

In Afghanistan they build quality rifles entirely with hand tools.

If you want a gun, you can make a gun. No sweat. Even today's air rifles can be overpressured to become lethal.

[Groo The Wanderer - A Canuck]

Americans sure do like killing... Such savages!

[Long John Silver]

The headline gets to the heart of the matter?

"… casts shadow over 3D printing"

That is, NOT just firearms construction.

Given the sheer number of lethal weapons - licensed or illicitly possessed - in the USA, the illegal manufacture of more, aided by 3D-printing, should be a trivial matter compared to deeper concerns.

What is feared is 3D-printing technology itself.

3D-printing capabilities rapidly are expanding. Not only manufacture of small artefacts, and components for larger items, is becoming reliable and inexpensive, but also 'printing' is extending into drug manufacture and related 'wet' biological products. Versatile 3D-printing apparatus is within the reach of some individuals, of groups and co-operatives, and of many small businesses. In addition, there are opportunities to create businesses offering bespoke manufacture of widgets. Coupled with conventional automation, 3D-printing offers opportunities competitively to manufacture (or to counterfeit) a huge variety of goods, these including motorcar parts and tacky 'designer' items.

For perceptive elements among the patent dependent, 'the writing is on the wall', just as it was for the copyright wielding recorded music industry when 'home-taping' became prominent during the 60s.

Using illegal gun manufacture as the pretext for 'controlling' 3D-printing is naive, even on its own terms. The type of criminal resorting to home-manufacturing or to buying very cheap illicitly made firearms, would be drawn from among ill-educated, down-at-heel, hoodlums. These creatures, nevertheless, can deploy imagination within the constraints of their intellects: what more obvious means of gun acquisition than, at knife-point, to rob of money, a frail person passing down a dark alley, and to buy a 'secondhand' firearm of traditional (and reliable) manufacture from a criminal associate?

[O'Reg Inalsin]

Re: The headline gets to the heart of the matter?

The type of criminal resorting to home-manufacturing or to buying very cheap illicitly made firearms, would be drawn from among ill-educated, down-at-heel, hoodlums.

I think the ones MAKING the guns (plural) for sale are probably not ill educated but rather have some native technical ability to learn read and learn the steps involved. Still hoodlums though.

[Apocalypso - a cheery end to the world]

General gun control

You're all missing the point: the purpose of this legislation is to stop people making their own guns once the soon to be proposed repeal of the 2nd amendment goes through.

<sarc/>

Free strapline for the gun control lobby: It wouldn't kill you to try gun control.

[Anonymous Coward]

I could solve this in 4 words.

Background check for barrel.

[Winkypop]

Guns, America loves their guns

The more guns the better isn’t it?

That’s what conservatives will tell you.

Make guns free! What’s more American than that?

/s