back to article Sword of Damocles hangs over UK military’s Ajax as minister says back it or scrap it

The British Army's ill-fated Ajax armored vehicle program now faces the prospect of being axed as the Ministry of Defence withdraws its initial operating capability status and reviews its future. Ajax, a tracked reconnaissance vehicle intended for the Army's Armoured Brigade Combat and Artillery Fire Support Teams, has been in …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Of course, one option (as mentioned in the article) would be to simply buy something that's already in service with our allies. But, everyone would stick their oar in and come up with $[reasons] why the UK needs something special and we need $[modifications], and before you know it, there are so many modifications from what's already available "off the shelf" that it effectively becomes a new design. That was (in part) the problem with Ajax - in principle it was a MOTS (modified off the shelf) design, but by the time all the $[modifications] have been applied you have to wonder if starting from scratch might have been better.

    Controlling the tendency to want something $[special] would be the key to making a replacement a success.

    Adding an IT angle, it's something common in software upgrade/replacement projects, and something I've seen first hand. The business looks around for a replacement for it's ageing, unmaintainable, and limiting business management software - finds something off the shelf. Then several departments are adamant that they cannot possibly work the same way as hundred of other businesses do because "we are special and do it this way". "Persuading" those departments to cope with industry standard processes is key to making things a success. FFS, how is "purchasing" a complicated function that needs "special" processes ?

    1. steelpillow Silver badge
      Joke

      Hi-history re-re-repea-repeating it-its-its-its-its...

      They should stick rotor blades on it and call it the Chinook.

      1. Paul Herber Silver badge

        Re: Hi-history re-re-repea-repeating it-its-its-its-its...

        Is this a wind-up?

        1. collinsl Silver badge

          Re: Hi-history re-re-repea-repeating it-its-its-its-its...

          Not in the MoD, the spring powering the winding mechanism would be broken within a month of deployment

    2. Bebu sa Ware Silver badge
      Coat

      $[special] ?

      Perhaps the UK government outsource the British Army's requirements analysis and procurement to the German Army ?

      The UK military might just get what it needs rather what a doolally collection colonel Blimps think they want.

      Perhaps the German military are just as bad but one likes to think not.

      1. AVR Silver badge

        Re: $[special] ?

        They have big problems with projects running over time and budget. Not a military procurement model to copy I'm afraid.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: $[special] ?

        The German military can fix their problems by outsourcing to Britain.

        I have often thought that democracy might work better if we let someone else elect our leaders, and we elect their's.

        Certainly the USA would not be in it's current predicament.

      3. JLV Silver badge

        Re: $[special] ?

        A while back studies were produced indicating a horrible lack of combat-readiness in Bundeswehr gear, with a lot of stuff not ready to fly or roll on any given day.

        Nothing warranting emulation.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: $[special] ?

          Let's hope the Russians are worse.

          1. collinsl Silver badge

            Re: $[special] ?

            Sadly for us their recent escapades have revealed to them a lot of their planning & logistics issues, which they've been working hard to solve. The good and bad side for us is that they've now used up a lot of their stocks of mothballed vehicles - the good side being their stocks are low, the bad side being they're replacing them with brand new more advanced ones.

            But the issues with corruption around the defence procurement sector are rapidly being solved. When the full scale invasion began there were large problems with various items of procurement, from trucks with all-terrain solid tyres turning out to have cheap Chinese road tyres which couldn't stand up to the use they were put to, to tanks going into combat with cardboard spacers instead of reactive explosive armour blocks, to frequency hopping encrypted radios turning out to contain cheap Chinese Walkie-Talkies which had no encryption and no range. All because the procurement officers skimmed off the top (and their superiors wanted paying too) - these problems are now mostly solved which means they've learned the lesson for any future conflict.

    3. trevorde Silver badge

      Not sure why the down votes because I've seen this in engineering and software. Each company thinks what they are doing is *so* unique that none of the existing solutions could possibly work and they must have a custom solution, just for them. The competitive advantage of a totally customised solution is always grossly overestimated. In all cases, the company would be better off accepting a COTS (Commodity Off The Shelf) solution and accepting any limitations.

      1. Aladdin Sane Silver badge

        Not just companies. The Oracle clusterfuck in Birmingham can be boiled down to this.

      2. Robert 22

        I am reminded of the XKCD Cartoon where someone notices that there are 13 standards that cover basically the same problem and starts on a new standard with the result that there are 14 standards.

        1. I could be a dog really Silver badge

          https://xkcd.com/927/

    4. JLV Silver badge

      You know, this post is also perfectly applicable to Canadian procurement. $reasons, $modifications et all. Outcome: co$t, delays, low volumes.

      Not like the likeliest adversary - Russia - is exactly fielding latest gen, future-proof systems opponents. Challenger 3’s challengers are well on track to be T-55s.

    5. eldakka

      But, everyone would stick their oar in and come up with $[reasons] why the UK needs something special and we need $[modifications], and before you know it, there are so many modifications from what's already available "off the shelf" that it effectively becomes a new design.
      The problem is, sometimes those $[reasons] and $[modifications] are in fact justified.

      Coming from an Australian perspective, I'll use a current Australian procurement situation as an example.

      Australia is procuring the New FFM (Upgraded Mogami) frigate from the Japanese. The first three are to be built in Japan with "no modifications to the Japanese version".

      Now, to be clear, I support the New FFM decision. When the RFI was put out with the 4 different frigate classes in it, I, in my non-expert opinion, thought the Mogami (or the South Korean frigates) would be better options than the Spanish or German proposals as we'd be buying from somewhere relatively local, and would be operating a class in common with direct regional allies, which would make logistics, support, maintenance, repair, and overhaul (MRO), easier, as there would be another country that operated the same type that could provide an additional regional location for maintenance and support (and we could offer the same for them).

      But, the big questions as to 'no modifications'.

      The Japanese use different missiles to the Australian inventory, Japanese locally produced anti-air and anti-ship missiles. Whereas Australia uses the Evolved-Sea Sparrow Missile (ESSM) for short range air defense, and the Naval Strike Missile (NSM - actually a backronymn as NSM originally meant Norwegian Strike Missile, but I digress) for anti-surface warfare. So, is the 'stock' Mogami compatible with those weapons? What about the software/integration, do the Japanese combat system software on board work with those missiles? Or would this meran Australia accepting into service a different anti-ar and anti-surface missile and logistics complications that involves?

      Apparently the answer to that is yes for both software (Mogami uses a US-based AEGIS system, which is also what Australia uses, so compatible there) and hardware (Mogami uses Mark41 VLS, which is also what Australia uses and was the original designed launch system for ESSM). So, in effect, where the ESSM and NSM are concerned it's really just a change of ammunition rather than a complete change of systems and/or hardware.

      But if that wasn't the case, then that would certainly require $[modifications] (to make thoise missiles work) and for $[reasons] (Australia currently uses ESSM and NSM, not the Japanese versions, and has started manufacturing in Australia the NSM and ESSM).

      But there are other $[reasons]. Some hypothetical examples:

      • What if in Japanese service the toilet-to-crew ratio is one head to 15 crew, but under RAN rules or legislation, crew are supposed to have a 10:1 crew:head ratio. Could they legally accept an unmodified Mogami with the Japanese standard 15:1 ratio? Or would they have to modify that? What about showers, wardroom space, etc. The requirements may be very different for Japanese SDF vs RAN (this may be legislation-based, not just internal policy).
      • All the on-board signage, software, documentation, manuals, maintenance guides etc. are currently in Japanese. Therefore these all have to be provided in English, which means the ship built by the Japanese will have to modify things like signs, labels, etc. And if there isn't already English versions of the approrpaite documentation, what then? Who does the translation?. Does the current software used throughout the ship already have an English language mode so you just have to select the right setup option, or do the Japanese (or Australia?) have to do the translation and add the English language mode? Or just install Australian-spec English-language replacement software? Does that Australian-equivalent software support the hardware (CPUs, memory, ASICs, microcontrollers, radars, communications equipment) that is in the "unmodified" Mogami? Or will they have to port the software to the Japanese hardware? Or will they replace the Japanese hardware with hardware that the Australian software (remember, this is needed because of different languages between the manufacturerer, Japan, and the end-user, Australia, not because of random reasons) supports? Will the Australian hardware fit as drop-in replacemnts for the Japanese hardware, or will fittings/mountings/alcoves/cupboards/cable routing have to be modified to the different dimensions and weights of the Australian equipment?
      • Do stock radars, communications, firecontrol, doorways (height, width), crew berths, emergency (liferafts, escape hatches, etc.), corridor dimensions, chairs, workstation heights, crawlspaces, electrical power production (AC, DC, voltage, frequency) correspond to Australian regulatory and naval standards (I mean, serving on board an Australian ship it seems reasonable that a crew member can just plug a domestic laptop/shaver/kettle into an electical outlet and expect it to work? right? do Japanese ships use the same AC/DC/Voltage/Frequency as Australian/RAN ships use?).

      The list goes on and on. Most might seem trivial, but they are real. Whether regulatory or policy or training or commonality or logistacl or even social constructs, requirements can be different for the same things between nations, especially obvious when there are language differences.

      Often it's just not practical to accept an item - in peace time, wartime emergencies like say the Russo-Ukraine war usually do away with these things, you "make do" - as-is because different countries just have different requirements and standards and use and have an inventory of different equipment.

      1. Strahd Ivarius Silver badge
        Devil

        Does the "no modification to Japanese design" forbids to translate signage from Japanese to Australian ?

    6. ElReg!comments!Pierre

      5 versions of Salesforce

      Admittedly we are a pretty big org, but do we really need 5 differently customized versions of Salesforce ? Yet we do maintain and run them ... with a sixth in the works, designed to replace all 5, but as Randall would put it : https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png

    7. Richard 51

      Custom or standard

      While I agree with Anon that many MOD projects suffer from behaviours outlined, when it comes to software packages I would hesitate to say the way Oracle or SAP define "standard" business processes is the way they should be done. After many years working with clients implementing these business solutions, the approach taken by both is often not standard and not best practice which forces customers to customise the software. It is true that often customers want to do it the way they have always done it. Its the job of the implementation partner to persuade them not to and to offer solutions which are truly best practice or deliver real value to the customer.

      But if solution providers did offer real best practice processes and clients signed up to them, most solution partners would be out of business!

  2. Goodwin Sands Bronze badge

    Additional reading

    Some additional reading in The Telegraph from a few days ago here

    or same via Yahoo here

    The author makes a point I haven't heard before that crews aren't getting to spend enough time in their vehicles, and that's the root of some of the problems.

    1. MiguelC Silver badge
      Meh

      Re: Additional reading

      Spending time using the vehicles makes the crew ill, ant that author's point is that they should spend more time there?

    2. This post has been deleted by its author

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Additional reading

        So you're in IT (this being an IT forum) but you can neither work out how to get round the Telegraph paywall or realise the Yahoo link isn't paywalled and was likely supplied for that very reason.

    3. thames Silver badge

      Re: Additional reading

      The crews aren't spending a lot of time in their vehicles because of the constant problems with them. If you buy a brand new car and it's spent most of the time since then in the shop for repair, the problem isn't that you aren't driving it enough.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Additional reading

        Article doesn't say that. It says crews aren't spending a lot of time in their vehicles because "Modern Whole Fleet Management and short exercise cycles mean that crews rotate constantly."

        Article might be lying of course, but that is what it says.

        1. thames Silver badge

          Re: Additional reading

          Whole Fleet Management is not working out well with other vehicles in terms of getting enough crew training, but has little to do with the problems which AJAX is having. Blaming H&S problems and manufacturing defects on WFM is quite frankly grasping at straws.

          So WFM should go and crews should get assigned vehicles, but that won't do anything with respect to the problems with AJAX.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Putting lipstick on a pig

    Personal opinion only, but I have been on the site where they maintain the things, AJAX is beyond redemption at any reasonable cost.

    Sometime you just have to bit the bullet and start again, or in this case purchase one of the alternative designs on the market.

    It's almost unbelievable that it could get this far and still not be anywhere near operational status. Well unbelievable anywhere but MOD.

    Other alternatives, Sweden's CV90, Spains/Austria ASCOD, German Lynx, US Bradley M3?

    The Bradley is part mad by BAe systems.

    1. thames Silver badge

      Re: Putting lipstick on a pig

      AJAX is based on ASCOD and is built in Spain, with the interior being fitted out in Wales. So the ASCOD option is what is not working.

      The US are in the process of replacing their M3 Bradley, with the decision being either the German Lynx, or what amounts to AJAX with a bigger gun. It would be very expensive and pointless to buy in on a platform which is nearing end of life. If you decide to just buy whatever the US decide to buy, that may end up being basically AJAX if they pick the US company (GD) over the German one (Rheinmetall).

      The only realistic solutions are as stated in the article, CV90, Lynx, or a version of Boxer. The Germans already have a reconnaissance module (body) for Boxer, so that's off the shelf.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Putting lipstick on a pig

        Looked like the CV90s that were donated to Ukraine didn't do so well (?) and whilst obviously better than nothing, is that the best off the shelf?

        I suspect the problem with restarting procurement (even ignoring the fact that it's government procurement and always goes wrong) is that with Europe waking up to the fact that it needs to be able to defend itself, the chances are that there's little spare capacity in the defence supply chain for years to come.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Putting lipstick on a pig

          Stop reading russian "news" stories...

          1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

            Re: Putting lipstick on a pig

            Stop reading russian "news" stories...

            Or stop reading Ukrainian. Or read both and draw your own conclusions. But apparently Sweden donated 50 to Ukraine and half have been lost. Which given all the weapons flying around might be expected and provides data. Previously CV90's had been used in Afghanistan in a fairly low intensity conflict and seemed to do pretty well, ie they hit IEDs and most of the crew and passengers survived. Ukraine is rather different, and is destruction testing pretty much all of Ajax's competitors.. Which were designed based on a set of assumptions based on the operations they'd expected to be used in.

            Now, there's a lot of real-world data about reliability, survivability etc that can be fed back into R&D and upgrades. Maybe we should send say, 10 Ajax to Ukraine and see how they do.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Putting lipstick on a pig

              Send them to the Russians and they will die laughing.

      2. eldakka

        Re: Putting lipstick on a pig

        The Germans already have a reconnaissance module (body) for Boxer, so that's off the shelf.
        Indeed they do, Australia chose this for our reconnaissance vehicle (though I'd be surprised if it wasn't modified). So, at the very least, the Brits could suss out the Australian experience with the reconnaissance version of the Boxer.

      3. Gordon 10
        WTF?

        Re: Putting lipstick on a pig

        So if the Spanish can make ASCOD work (assuming it does) then just undo whatever mod that borked Ajax. Surely the list of components is fairly finite.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Putting lipstick on a pig

          The “mod” is adding an extra 15 tons of weight to the 25-ton ASCOD. You cannot add that much weight to any vehicle just by tweaking the suspension a bit. As any 6-year-old could have told them.

          1. Gordon 10

            Re: Putting lipstick on a pig

            Thanks for that clarification!

        2. Strahd Ivarius Silver badge
          Coat

          Re: Putting lipstick on a pig

          Remove the built-in tea kettle? Never!

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Putting lipstick on a pig

            A 15 tons samovar?

    2. eldakka

      Re: Putting lipstick on a pig

      Other alternatives, Sweden's CV90, Spains/Austria ASCOD, German Lynx, US Bradley M3?
      But that's the thing that gets me the most about this. Ajax is derived from the ASCOD.

      This to me raises an obvious question - does the ASCOD have these same issues?

      If they do, then how in hell was ASCOD ever downselected to become the basis of Ajax? That's a truly massive failure right there. Is this incompetence, maliciousness, or just outright bribery?

      If ASCOD does not have these issue, then what in the living hells has General Dynamics and/or British Army requirements done to the ASCOD to introduce this behaviour?

      I mean, I completely understand there can be modifications necessary to meet requirements (see my previous (long!) post replying to someone else earlier in this article), but surely "make it vibrate like a bastard and destroy the hearing of passengers and make them sick" wasn't one of the requested modifications?

      I think heads need to roll, someone (or some people) have fucked up severly somewhere, either in the selection process, the modification requirements over base ASCOD, or the manufacturing.

      1. Spazturtle Silver badge

        Re: Putting lipstick on a pig

        The core issue is the construction quality of the chassis which is the same between the ASCOD and the Ajax. There is variation of chassis length of up to 3ft between different chassis.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Putting lipstick on a pig

          "There is variation of chassis length of up to 3ft between different chassis." So, someone got the metric conversions wrong when setting up manufacture in Spain then?

          1. Spazturtle Silver badge

            Re: Putting lipstick on a pig

            No just poor build quality and QA. Each chassis that comes off the line is a different size. Which means that once it gets sent for fit and finish they need to modify all the parts to fit.

            It also means the Ajax is not field repairable since each one has its own bespoke parts.

            1. goodjudge

              Re: Putting lipstick on a pig

              "Each chassis that comes off the line is a different size."

              The mind boggles at how that's even possible. Do Mercedes, Fiat, Jaguar etc have this problem with their cars? DAF or Ford with their trucks? How has the MOD or its appointed contractors not figured out the basics of vehicle-making, that have been around since Henry Ford?

              Or am I missing something blatantly obvious?

              1. ChrisC Silver badge

                Re: Putting lipstick on a pig

                I mean, I somewhat recall this being one of the issues with the attempts to upgrade Nimrod - the variability between each of the original airframes, meaning that the modifications were essentially unique to each one - but given how old those airframes were and the way in which airframes were put together back then, this wasn't entirely a surprise. - ISTR it being suggested (however close to or far away from the truth it might have been) was that it'd have been cheaper to simply build entirely new airframes to a consistent set of dimensions, that just happened to look exactly like Nimrods...

                But to hear that a modern design, something which has absolutely no excuse for not learning from the mistakes of those who went before, has anything more than a few *mm* of tolerance variation, simply beggars belief, and I'm struggling to accept that comment on the chassis dimensions differing by such a significant amount as being anything more than poetic licence, with the actual variation being rather less dramatic whilst still being a genuine factor in the reliability/performance problems AJAX is having. Because if they really *are* rolling off the production line with that much variability, then it raises real concerns over what else about the design/build has been similarly screwed up.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Putting lipstick on a pig

              "Each chassis that comes off the line is a different size"

              Wait. What?!?! Is this some kind of extra-special lunacy?

  4. BOFH in Training

    Send it to Ukraine

    If they are willing to take it. If even they refuse, I guess it's time to scrap it.

    They seem to have become pretty good at fixing things up and using them well against Russia. Or at least getting the good parts and building whatever they need.

    1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
      Mushroom

      Re: Send it to Ukraine

      Or Taiwan, before 2027 - as Xi appears to gear up his forces to be capable of launching an invasion

      1. Strahd Ivarius Silver badge

        Re: Send it to Ukraine

        If Xi keeps firing his top generals, it will end like the first Winter war...

    2. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: Send it to Ukraine

      The Boffins in Ukraine seem to be able to fix anything. More power to them.

      1. theblackhand

        Re: Send it to Ukraine

        Or we could just acknowledge that the design is fundamentally flawed and avoid wasting the Ukrainian's time.

        And if manufacturers/UK defence decision makers need more evidence, have Ukrainian's "donate" some to Russians desperate for vehicles and let them demonstrate the flaws rather than harming allies....

    3. steelpillow Silver badge

      Re: Send it to Ukraine

      Might be wiser to let the Russians capture the shipment.

    4. Goodwin Sands Bronze badge

      Re: Send it to Ukraine

      And the classified technology used in and by Ajax, you'd be happy to share that with Russia & China?

      Give Ajax to Ukraine and inevitably examples would be captured.

      1. steelpillow Silver badge
        Facepalm

        Re: Send it to Ukraine

        Never, ever use a classified technology in a hot war, in case it gets captured. Always use 50-year-old crap and save the SECRET sauce for the peacetime contract backhanders.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Send it to Ukraine

          You think it's funny. But it is a basic tenet. You don't use the best gear in someone else's war. You keep it against a day when it's your own soldiers lives that are on the line. Then you use it.

          1. steelpillow Silver badge

            Re: Send it to Ukraine

            Nope. Other way round. You don't let most allies have it in peacetime, though maybe you are already developing it in collaboration. But you don't withold the winning tech just when it is most needed in battle. Think of the UK getting P-51D Mustangs, the US getting the only flightworthy de Havilland Goblin prototype to power their F-80 prototype, Stalin getting Spitfires from Churchill, Japan getting the plans for their own Messerschmitt jet and rocket fighters. Allies stick together.

            1. EvilDrSmith Silver badge

              Re: Send it to Ukraine

              The Mustang was designed by a private US company to meet a British specification, and the 'D' model only came about because the British stuck a Merlin engine in it to find out what would happen, it wasn't given to the UK by the US.

              The Spitfires that went to the Soviet Union as British aid were not the latest models (we needed them for ourselves), and the Germans were already familiar with them (courtesy of the RAF).

              German rocket / jet plans went to Japan when both those nations were already well on their way to defeat, and they provided no material benefit to the Japanese.

              In reality, allies tend to argue amongst themselves; the alliances that win are the ones that argue least.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Send it to Ukraine

              @steelpillow

              No it's not. If allies, it's their war as well, so the basic tenet holds.

              And in any case last war isn't a great example. Over six years policies btw allies re supplying arms and sharing technology shifted back and forth. So much so one could cherry pick examples to argue just about anything.

      2. martinusher Silver badge

        Re: Send it to Ukraine

        I can't imagine what secret technology could be included in this vehicle.

        Experience in Ukraine suggests that this type of vehicle is obsolete anyway.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Send it to Ukraine

          >I can't imagine

          How about armour, sensors, fire control, active protection system, for starters. Adversaries gets their hands on any of that they copy/improve and/or create countermeasures.

          >obsolete anyway

          Yup, pretty much, at least until counter measures for fibre FPV drones available.

          But even then does the army we have now honestly have use for such a vehicle? And that's a whole discussion in itself.

        2. Strahd Ivarius Silver badge
          Joke

          Re: Send it to Ukraine

          The secret technology is the British Tea Kettle (tm), vastly superior to the Russian or Ukrainian samovar

    5. herman Silver badge

      Re: Send it to Ukraine

      Good idea. It sounds like the Ajax should not be used by sensitive snowflakes and would do well in Ukraine.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Send it to Ukraine

        Not sensitive snowflakes. They didn't give up until they were hospitalised.

  5. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
    Joke

    Something off the shelf from China!

    May be Starmer has done a deal during his recent visit to China and has an agreement for a Chinese supplied replacement.

    icon: I hope it is...

    1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

      Re: Something off the shelf from China!

      Chinese Armoured Fighting EV Vehicle.

      Some time in the future. Iranian people reporting masked contractors showing up and installing EV rapid charging points around the country and tea making facilities, solar and wind power stations popping up. Nobody knows anything.

  6. Inspector71
    Happy

    Get on the phone to Toyota

    See if you can get a deal on a couple of thousand 70 series LandCruisers which they still make and remember the world's light support weapon platform of choice is still the Hi-Lux.

    Both more indestructible than Captain Scarlett.

    1. Inspector71

      Re: Get on the phone to Toyota

      Not sure I get the downvotes guys, not sure I can flag it more as a joke…

      There is a serious point buried under there though. They went to General Dynamics to design and build a vehicle. One of the usual suspects in the closed Defence contractor ecosystem.

      Why couldn’t they go to a company that, you know, actually designs and builds vehicles? Who understand suspension and vibration and ride comfort? There’s a German company who begin with a P who you could argue are an engineering and design business who have a sideline in making cars. How about you give them the spec and let them try?

      No, because a small pool of companys have got it all locked up and if it runs years late and billions over budget then it doesn’t matter because they have made sure you have nowhere else to go.

      /rant

      /end

      1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
        Coat

        Re: Get on the phone to Toyota

        There's an Italian tractor manufacturer with a sideline in Cars...

        1. werdsmith Silver badge

          Re: Get on the phone to Toyota

          No, Trattori is part of SDF group, they don't make cars.

          Now totally separate from Automobili who are part of the Audi division of Volkswagen Group.

      2. herman Silver badge

        Re: Get on the phone to Toyota

        GD Land Systems in Canada make pretty good LAVs.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Get on the phone to Toyota

        I'm not sure about Toyota, it sounds more like a job for JCB, Caterpillar, Komatsu, or for the really big stuff, Terex

    2. Albert Coates
      Happy

      Re: Get on the phone to Toyota

      It's Captain Scarlet, like Captain Black - maybe you're thinking of Scarlett O'Hara? Melody Angel's the one for me.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Classic

    Seems like a classic lifecycle of a government project. Find usual suspect, pour billions into it, play dumb why things are not working out, cancel the project. Everyone is happy except the tax payer, but don't worry, just wheel out the Chancellor for next round of tax hikes. Rinse (the tax payer) and repeat.

  8. cd Silver badge

    Missed opportunity by Reg ed...

    Ajax to be scrubbed?

    or...

    Ajax shrugged?

    1. snowpages

      Re: Missed opportunity by Reg ed...

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_(cleaning_product) so scrubbed is good.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Cancel Ajax buy either Lynx or CV90

    Years behind schedule millions over budget. Program managers refrain is always “…too early to tell, or too late to change…”

    Both the Lynx and the CV90 seem like good platforms. Unfortunately they don’t provide enough jobs in the UK. Remember Defence is white collar welfare and NOT about Defence. Maybe MoD can sprinkle some “modernization” fairy dust onto the Lynx or CV90 to swing some MP’s round to supporting the change. Save face by using BAE or GD UK to “technology insert” from Ajax into said platforms. Throw around terms like NATO interoperability and best in breed. Add labels such as battle proven and evolving battlefield threats from lessons learned in Ukraine.

    Declare Ajax a success and quietly take it out behind the barn and shoot it. Bonus points if you watch the old movie “Pentagon Wars”.

    1. Like a badger Silver badge

      Re: Cancel Ajax buy either Lynx or CV90

      Unfortunately they don’t provide enough jobs in the UK.

      Neither did the ASCOD vehicle as it was built in Spain, but our government redesigned it until it became the Ajax, still mostly built in Spain, but with some final assembly and fitout in Newport. The Yanks are doing much the same, with the General Dynamics Griffin, which is likewise based on ASCOD. In fact ASCOD and its derivatives are a masterly demonstration of the inability of NATO countries to standardise on anything, ensuring high costs, poor performance and limited inter-operability. It's similar when it comes to aircraft, missiles, ships, submarines, guns, tanks etc etc.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Cancel Ajax buy either Lynx or CV90

      Same reason we are lumbered with the flying white elephant F35B. More workshare for the UK.

  10. alain williams Silver badge

    I am surprised that John Healey did not say ...

    that they were going to get the Ajax redesigned by AI and that it would be fixed next week.

    Are you telling me that he has enough clue to know that AI is not capable of doing everything ?

    1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

      Re: I am surprised that John Healey did not say ...

      That would mean AI having to produce something tangible.

  11. martinusher Silver badge

    It seems to be suffering from overdesign

    The common denominator behind all of these European companies is General Dynamics, a huge US defense conglomerate. We're currently going through a bit of a bad patch with new vehicles in the US due to a combination of poor basic engineering and poor software design and this may have crept into these products as well. Mechanical problems seem to be due to over stressed engines and transmissions leading to persistent problems and catastrophic failures quite early on in the vehicles' service lives and software appears to be glitchy caused by overweight, unduly feature packed, designs that haven't been sufficiently well tested. Since these problems appear across makes and includes imports from notable German brands that used to be regarded as bulletproof it suggests that there's a pattern that may be affecting engineering as a whole.

    The AJAX appears to be about as ergonomically friendly as a Mark V tank (and likely as survivable on a modern battlefield -- reports from Ukraine suggest that any vehicle that appears anywhere near the front lines is likely to be immediately be attacked by drones leading to the primary transport being now dirt bikes or ATVs). But as the song goes "It all makes work for the working person to do.....".

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: It seems to be suffering from overdesign

      As a mechanical engineer, I don't think overdesign means what you think it does. (To an engineer, something overdesigned would imply that you've gone way beyond the design requirements, and are designing against failures you don't need to worry about.)

      I suspect that the problem is actually that for a given vehicle, you can choose two items from 1. lots of power, 2. a long working life, 3. Really good fuel efficiency.

      What the military *really* needs is items 1 plus 2, but logistics gets in the way because of the difficulty of keeping the front line fuelled, so you end up compromising on the reliability and going for 1. and 3., because you *can't* compromise on the power needed to shift these vehicles around. The same applies to premium (internal combustion) cars... in sane parts of the world, people expect efficiency, and sometimes it's required by regulations, but in a premium car, you expect it to move off like a rocket when you press the accelerator, so you have to compromise somewhere, and that's usually by using "just strong enough" parts, rather than designing for a long life across multiple owners.

      1. david willis

        Re: It seems to be suffering from overdesign

        I'm minded of a conversation at university (early 90's) in a lecture about systems design.

        We need a shoulder launched anti aircraft missile (late 70's early 80's), it needs to

        1. be a reasonable weight

        2. be effective against enemy aircraft

        3. have decent range

        2 & 3 cause conflict.

        To be effective against enemy aircraft your best hope is a decent sized warhead (mix of bang and ballbearings) which when detonated near the enemy aircraft (this is how they work) will shred said aircraft.

        As your warhead size increases you have to consider the amount of propellent needed to move it, big warhead needs more fuel to move it, particularly if you are looking for decent range.

        2 & 3 added together are dead weight.

        Within three months of the conversation starting about this "shoulder launched system", it had morphed into something that needed a 30 ton tracked vehicle to carry it round.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: It seems to be suffering from overdesign

      You are sure you are not describing the Cybertruck?

  12. Not Yb Silver badge
    Joke

    AJAX v Ajax

    "I can get it to update the dashboard without refreshing the page, but it's still going to be a very rough ride."

  13. segfault188

    Kids of today...

    They're trying to do too many things with modern Ajax. It used to just, according to the old adverts, "clean baths without scratching".

  14. david 12 Silver badge

    "reported symptoms consistent with noise and vibration effects"

    That's a very poorly defined complaint, which seems to be part of the problem.

    Here is the Australian Government advice: "Measuring WBV can be difficult and complex. If workers feel WBV is uncomfortable, it is likely their exposure to vibration is reaching levels which could affect their health. I" https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/system/files/documents/1703/wholebodyvibrationinformationsheet.pdf

    So,(presumably) lacking meaningful measurement, all they can say is that the troops report that they are uncomfortable in the new truck. Now, these are professionals, but "troops report that they are uncomfortable" is not a measure susceptible to any kind of technical solution. Even if the problem is real, the solution is a Morale solution. The only question is if it will be cheaper to restore morale with care and compassion, or with a new truck.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "reported symptoms consistent with noise and vibration effects"

      H&S in a battlefield? Good luck with that.

  15. Felonmarmer
    Meh

    Shocked/Not Shocked

    So all those videos of Ajax crews praising the new version and saying it was now all OK, they were just obeying orders to say that? Shocked I tell you.

  16. werdsmith Silver badge

    Off topic. "Sword of Damocles".... how does that fit into this topic?

    It's a parable that describes how desired positions of power and authority have a significant downside. Nothing to do with the curtailing of a project or cancelling of a contract.

    1. Felonmarmer

      Swords and Sourcery.

      Someone wrote the report that it was OK now? They might lose their job, unless maybe they were ordered to, in which case they may fall on their sword to protect their superior (to use another sword metaphor).

      In the Illiad, after the burial of Achilles, the recoverers of his body each claim Achilles' magical armor. A competition is held to determine who deserves the armor. Ajax argues that because of his strength and the fighting he has done for the Greeks, including saving the ships from Hector, and driving him off with a massive rock, he deserves it. However, Odysseus proves to be more eloquent, and with the aid of Athena, the council gives him the armor. Ajax, distraught by this result, plunges his sword into his own chest, killing himself.

      How about that for a parable! Odysseus is a trickster (politician) who through his words beats Ajax (The APC is called Ajax because of it's strength) causing the death of Ajax (or the cancellation of the APC).

  17. BebopWeBop
    Devil

    Not an original suggestion I know but worth repeating.

    Bolt the senior procurement staff into these vehicles while they are being tested and commisioned. I predict an almost instantaneous improvement in QA (and QC) on the project

  18. Acrimonius

    Did not have all the facts

    So now they realise that the readiness decision was made without all the facts. When have they ever had the facts at any time in the programme history? Do they not realise that hiding facts is an art form that all defence contractors and their counterparts in MoD Procurement and the Services have honed to perfection.

  19. A2D

    "Swede" them

    As per movie "Be kind, rewind", and Ukrainian experience, turn them in autonomous drones. Or give them to Ukraine.

  20. captain veg Silver badge

    R.I.P. El Reg

    When did a "technology news publication" (https://www.theregister.com/Profile/about_the_register/) turn into Jane's Guide to megalethality?

    -A.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: R.I.P. El Reg

      How else do you get your IT into the battle ?

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