Finnish cops grill crew of ship suspected of undersea cable sabotage

Finnish police have arrested and are interviewing two crew members from a class A cargo ship sailing from Russia after suspected cable sabotage in the Baltic Sea. Tactical Transport Helicopter used by the Finnish Defence Forces drops Above: Finnish authorities board seized vessel Fitburg in Kirkkonummi, Finland and Below: …

[Steve Foster]

Logical Next Step?

Perhaps it's time for someone enterprising to build miniature tunnel-boring machines that can be used to construct under-sea-bed cables/cabling ducts.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: Logical Next Step?

Perhaps it's time for someone enterprising to build miniature tunnel-boring machines that can be used to construct under-sea-bed cables/cabling ducts.

It's being done.. sort of-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki%E2%80%93Tallinn_Tunnel

The Helsinki–Tallinn Tunnel (also known as FinEst or Talsinki tunnel) is a proposed undersea tunnel that would span the Gulf of Finland and connect the Finnish and Estonian capitals by train. The tunnel's length would depend on the route taken: the shortest distance across would have a submarine length of 80 kilometres (50 mi), which would make it 40% longer than the current longest railway tunnel in the world.

Then like the Channel Tunnel, just run fibre through the tunnel as well. Slight snag at the moment is who'll pay for it, and at €9–13 billion cost, it seems a bargain compared to say, HS2.

[rg287]

Re: Logical Next Step?

Then like the Channel Tunnel, just run fibre through the tunnel as well. Slight snag at the moment is who'll pay for it, and at €9–13 billion cost, it seems a bargain compared to say, HS2.

And as with HS2, the €9-15Bn estimate is likely... ambitious.

Usual caveats though:

* The Gulf of Finland is shallow, tunnelling is pretty easy. Launch the TBMs and away you go.

* No planning permission for 99% of the route.

* No NIMBYs for 99% of the route (votes for fish!)

* No land acquisition/legals for 99% of the route.

* HS2 includes major city-centre stations (£2.5-5Bn each) and new approaches. This becomes even more expensive when the Prime Minister decides he knows better than rail enigneers and wilfully lobs £1Bn of prep work in the bin "to save money" because he can't do basic maths.

A lot of HS2 segments have come in on-time and on-budget. The delays and cost rises are the result of political meddling and changes. Contractors are sat saying "No, this build isn't over budget. It's just you started and aborted two previous builds before you let us get the f- on with it". That's not free.

Also the critical oversight that when Parliament authorised the route, they didn't include assumed planning permission for enabling works. So HS2 Ltd had a legally authorised route, but had to go and gain planning permission for things like access roads and temporary works sites, survey and groundwater-monitoring sites. In some cases councils refused permission, delaying work starts or forcing them to acquire more land, approach from a different direction or do something else. All of which costs money.

In most mature countries, when the Government authorises a strategic project, that authority actually represents a green light to crack on. Not a charter for local authorities to block and stymie the project along political lines.

[An_Old_Dog]

Re: Logical Next Step?

It doesn't even have to be a tunnel-borer. An electrically-powered, modified-for-underwater-work Ditch Witch™ trencher could do the job.

https://www.ditchwitch.com/trenchers/

[Eric 9001]

Re: Logical Next Step?

Underwater ditch trenchers are already use to bury submarine cables near the shore, as even steel piping shielding often just isn't enough to stop cables from being regularly cut.

I figure it'll be exponentially harder to get a ditch trencher to work below several km of ocean and the sea floor can be rock in many places too.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: Logical Next Step?

Underwater ditch trenchers are already use to bury submarine cables near the shore, as even steel piping shielding often just isn't enough to stop cables from being regularly cut.

Yep. Large ship means large anchor and enough chain to stop the ship from drifting. So can easily snag, drag and snap cables. Which will become part of the investigation, ie why this ship (and others) were dragging their anchor and didn't notice. Sal from the 'Whats going on with shipping' has gone over what should happen, and what could happen to cause this. When I've been on yachts, deck crew watch the anchor and make sure it's in its pocket and brakes are on. On larger ships, that's not possible & it's more automated, and suprisingly there aren't always alarms to show anchor state.

I figure it'll be exponentially harder to get a ditch trencher to work below several km of ocean and the sea floor can be rock in many places too.

Not a problem for the Baltic-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landsort_Deep

The Landsort Deep is a marine abyss located in the Baltic Sea and, at 456.51 m (1,497.7 ft) deep, constitutes its deepest point.

Or that's the problem with the Baltic, ie average depth is only 50m and it's a busy place for shipping. I've worked on cables crossing the Baltic and as it's shallow, robo trenchers were used. But part of the challenge is although cables can be buried (and sometimes covered in concrete), you also need to be able to snag cables and lift them to the surface to be repaired on a cable ship. So then a need to unbury enough cable to do that, which means more cost and a worse MTTR.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Logical Next Step?

Why should we need to protect our infrastructure in this manner? Other states just need to keep their paws off it or face the consequences.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: Logical Next Step?

Why should we need to protect our infrastructure in this manner? Other states just need to keep their paws off it or face the consequences.

Probably because our infrastructure is rather vulnerable, as the mysterious sabotage of the Nord Sea pipelines demonstrated. Biggest act of economic sabotage in Europe's history, and carried out by an ally. We're up to 20(?) rounds of economic warfare against Russia, and recently starting hijacking or sinking ships. We escalate, our 'leaders' whine when they might face the inevitable consequences of their actions.

[Sandtitz]

Re: Logical Next Step?

"We're[...]recently starting hijacking or sinking ships"

There has been no hijacking or sinking of ships.

You're thinking of Black Sea where Russia has a habit of sinking merchant ships.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: Logical Next Step?

There has been no hijacking or sinking of ships.

Do try to keep up. This article is about one-

The vessel was sailing from St. Petersburg in Russia to the port of Haifa, Israel, when Finnish authorities detained it. According to its IMO number, Fitburg is a general cargo ship and sails under the flag of St. Vincent and the Grenadines.

If it's ruled as accidental, or the Fitburg isn't implicated, then it might get released, but other ships have been seized and their cargo sold.

You're thinking of Black Sea where Russia has a habit of sinking merchant ships.

Do keep up. Another example of kinetic diplomacy here-

https://kyivindependent.com/russian-shadow-fleet-vessel-that-sank-in-2024-carried-nuclear-reactors-to-north-korea-la-verdad-reports/

A Russian cargo ship that sank off the coast of Spain in December 2024 was allegedly carrying undeclared components for two nuclear reactors bound for North Korea and may have been disabled by damage consistent with a torpedo strike, La Verdad reported, citing what it described as a Spanish investigation.

Which.. has more than a few errors, like it was a Russian ship owned by Oboronlogistika, a Russian state corporation and Russian flagged. It was also saling from St Petersburg to Vladivostok, which is a Russian port, not DPRK.. And-

La Verdad also cited Spain’s National Geographic Institute, reporting that seismographs detected signals at the time the ship sank that the paper said were consistent with blasts in the range of roughly 20 to 50 kilograms of TNT.

Which is rather inconsistent with a 300kg+ torpedo warhead, but consisent with a limpet mine. Especially considering neither torpedos nor mines use TNT, but something 1.3-1.5x or more effective. Plus at least one of the holes was above the waterline, so holy jumpiing torpedoes batman. So far more likely to have been a drone or mine. Especially given Ukraine has also been attacking civilian ships off the coast of Turkiye recently with drones. So then Russia promptly began hammering Odessa, along with supply routes via Romania and Poland.

But that's the joy of escalations, and pretending we're not involved, or somehow hold the moral high ground. We help attack Russia's infrastructure, we shouldn't be suprised if they go after ours as well. Stealing Venezuala won't exactly win friends and influence people, although diplomats are probably burning the midnight oil trying to buy votes ahead of any UN Resolutions.. Not that they're likely to go anywhere given the UN SC composition.

[Sandtitz]

Re: Logical Next Step?

Moi: "There has been no hijacking or sinking of ships."

"The vessel was sailing from St. Petersburg in Russia to the port of Haifa, Israel, when Finnish authorities detained it. According to its IMO number, Fitburg is a general cargo ship and sails under the flag of St. Vincent and the Grenadines."

Once again you seem to have trouble understanding English - or perhaps seizing/detaining is mistranslated to hijacking in whatever your native language is.

List the hijacked ships or just admit your error.

"If it's ruled as accidental, or the Fitburg isn't implicated, then it might get released, but other ships have been seized and their cargo sold."

Yes, ships have been seized for reason - Russia has also seized cargo ships. No cargo has been sold.

...MV Ursa Major...

You wrote: 'We're up to 20(?) rounds of economic warfare against Russia, and recently starting hijacking or sinking ships.'

"We" haven't sunk any ships nor has even Russia claimed so. Please list those ships that "we" have sunk or, you know, stop commenting on things you have no grasp of.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: Logical Next Step?

Once again you seem to have trouble understanding English - or perhaps seizing/detaining is mistranslated to hijacking in whatever your native language is.

Not me guv, but you do seem rather ignorant of international law, or just custom and practice. But this is sadly normal for 'political' discussions. So..

According to its IMO number, Fitburg is a general cargo ship and sails under the flag of St. Vincent and the Grenadines.

IMO is the International Maritime Organisation with 175 member states as signatories.. That sets what should be the rules for shipping. Part of those are the concept of 'innocent passage' for merchant ships, but also allows for inspections, searches and sometimes seizures. Which is currently being ignored by assorted nations, eg attacks on ships in the Black Sea, Med or extradjudicial killings of crews off Venezuala. But Fitburg's flagged SVH, which isn't a party to any conflict. Neither is Turkey, who were operating the vessel. Neither is Israel, who's the customer of the cargo.

The media's made much of the claim that the cargo is 'sanctioned steel', which is an EU decision and should really just mean EU entities can't trade in sanctioned stuff. It doesn't really have any basis in international laws or treaties, ie IMO rules permitting innocent passage.. But we've been regarding the Baltic as an EU/NATO lake, and some of the more rabid Baltic states want to blockade Russia, which is illegal, would give Russia a causus belli and if say, Estonia decided to board, seize and detain merchant ships could also remove NATO Article 5 obligations because Estonia triggered the causus belli.

See also-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_S

which is a tanker seized by Finland and still detained. Normally what should happen is crew may get arrested and charged, but because it's the Captain and cew responsible, not the ship, the ship and cargo should be released. That one got a little more complicated given 'Shadow Fleet' often just means 'not insured by Lloyds', and one response to sanctions was BRICS setting up their own systems.. But then unilateral sanctions can make claims a tad tricky. Or counterclaims. So we've been busy seizing and selling superyachts because the owner might be in a photoshot with Putin, or part of their business supplies Russia's military. Then the yachts get flogged off, denying owners their property or any compensation, or because sanctions, even legal representation. Plus sometimes just running up pretty huge costs having them moored somewhere, and possible future claims for loss of use, crew wages, depreciation, charter income etc etc. One's been sitting in Docklands for years now, slowly decaying and the owner of that one wasn't even on any sanctions lists.

So all a bit of a mess. But attempt to educate yourself some more here-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_shadow_fleet

"We" haven't sunk any ships nor has even Russia claimed so. Please list those ships that "we" have sunk or, you know, stop commenting on things you have no grasp of.

Obviously I grasp rather more than you seem to because I gave the example of the Ursa Major, attacked and sunk in the Med. 'We' is just short-hand for us in the collective West. How much involvement 'We' had in some incidents is all rather murky, ie did 'We' or our allies conduct, or assist in blowing up the NordStream pipelines? Or sinking the Ursa Major? Or this incident from the 'Shadow Fleet' link-

In December 2025, the SBU executed its first long-range Mediterranean strike targeting a tanker that had recently delivered oil to India.

According to a report by The Atlantic, citing U.S. and Ukrainian officials, the Trump administration did not object to the Ukrainian strikes on the shadow fleet, and approved assistance for the strikes

Or the other attacks on merchant ships by Ukraine in the Black Sea. Those have mostly been unladen tankers, which is probably just as well because-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Convention_on_Civil_Liability_for_Oil_Pollution_Damage

Means that Ukraine, as the party responsible for any oil spills and environmental damage would be liable for the costs.. Or that's back to 'We' being liable again because Ukraine has been bankrupt for a while now, and only propped up thanks to the generosity of EU & UK taxpayers..

But such is politics. We've been increasingly escalating and doing things that are arguably against international law. So we steal ships because we've decided they're 'shadow' tankers, and shouldn't be at all suprised when countries we've decided are shadow enemies start doing the same. So Iran's been seizing ships, the Houthis have been lobbing missiles and drones at others. As we keep escalating our dirty wars, maybe Iran, Russia, China etc will provide more help to our enemies.. Which they almost certainly are doing, and will almost certainly become an issue after seizing Venezuala and it's oil. Especially when narco gangs often have more money and weapons than many states do.

[Sandtitz]

Re: Logical Next Step?

"Not me guv, but you do seem rather ignorant of international law"

Yes you guv. You spoke of hijackings and then quickly moved goalposts and still try to steer the discussion elsewhere as your lie was exposed.

"Obviously I grasp rather more than you seem to because I gave the example of the Ursa Major, attacked and sunk in the Med."

"How much involvement 'We' had in [...] sinking the Ursa Major?

The ship sunk and Russia called it terrorist attack. It wasn't sunk by the "collective west", otherwise you would put up some sort of evidence to defend your ludicrous conjecture.

More likely the crew was drunk on vodka, and their distillery exploded along with some materiel the ship had been used for transporting. It's not like the Russian marines are known to be careful with their anchors either.

You mentioned that "we" had sold Russian cargo from the seized ships. Now's a good time for you to back that claim.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: Logical Next Step?

Yes you guv. You spoke of hijackings and then quickly moved goalposts and still try to steer the discussion elsewhere as your lie was exposed.

There is no lie, and the only thing being exposed is your ignorance. Unlawful seizure and detention of commercial vessels making innocent passage in international, or even national/EEZ waters is effectively hijacking. You could become somewhat less ignorant if you watched Sal's videos, he being this chap-

https://www.usni.org/people/salvatore-r-mercogliano

and clearly knows a lot more about shipping & maritime law than you or I.. International laws govern who can stop, search or seize vessels, especially in international waters and where there are no agreements between nations, or flag states to authorise this. Which also gets a bit more complicated with the US, because they've not ratified international laws like UNCLOS. Or just read this-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_convenience

As of 2025, the open registries of Panama, Liberia, and Marshall Islands accounted for approximately half of the entire world fleet by deadweight tonnage, maintaining roughly the same proportion for over a decade

Which is FUN! because those registries are effectively controlled by the US, and remarkably convenient because less tax or the need for US crews, like a US flagged vessel would have. But also where political pressure gets applied on flag states to de-register ships, converting them with a few clicks into 'shadow fleet' ships. Or with a few more clicks, the Bella 1 became the Marinera and a Russian ship. Which might be cheating, but also probably legal. Ships aren't supposed to change flags mid-voyage, unless there's a change of ownership. But we're in the 21st Century now and all that can be done online. Now with a Russian flag, if the US attempted to steal it, it becomes a bit more of an international incident.

Which has also been an issue in the Baltic, with Estonia 'ordering' a ship into their waters so it could be detained.. And Russia promptly sending a couple of fighters in a polite way to tell Estonia to Foxtrot Oscar. Plus also using naval escorts now to protect merchant ships from interference with their legal passage.. Which also means the risk of escalations.

The ship sunk and Russia called it terrorist attack. It wasn't sunk by the "collective west", otherwise you would put up some sort of evidence to defend your ludicrous conjecture.

By most definitions, sinking a merchant ship in international waters would be a terrorist attack, or at the very least unlawful. And of course whoever did it is going to produce evidence of illegality, or assistance. Just like the mystery of the NordStream sabotage. Germany wanted to extradite a Ukrainian suspected of involvement, Poland said 'nope' and ruled that attacks on civilian infrastructure assisting the conflict is lawful.. Which is a risky ruling because perhaps Poland's pipelines or power cables will start exploding, or being cut. All's fair in love and war, right?

More likely the crew was drunk on vodka, and their distillery exploded along with some materiel the ship had been used for transporting.

Uhuh. Again confirming your lack of clue, bias and racism. Again if you bothered to read the report into the sinking, you'd have spotted the bit that the explosion happened on the outside of the hull..

You mentioned that "we" had sold Russian cargo from the seized ships. Now's a good time for you to back that claim.

I really should start doing the DNFTT thing, but as I've got the page open, try this one-

On 20 December, the USCG boarded a second ship, the Panama-flagged Centuries (IMO number: 9206310), carrying 1.8 million barrels of crude oil off the coast of Venezuela.

And Trump saying he'd probably sell the oil. So 1.8m x $60bbl= $108m, plus the value of the tanker. Nice lil earner when the seizure was 'justified' based on sailing without AIS enabled.. Which is usually a <$100k fine. Who says piracy doesn't pay?

[Sandtitz]

Re: Logical Next Step?

"There is no lie, and the only thing being exposed is your ignorance. Unlawful seizure and detention of commercial vessels making innocent passage in international, or even national/EEZ waters is effectively hijacking."

My you are grasping at straws here!

The ship was seized within Finland’s territorial waters, where Finland has full jurisdiction.

Also, the vessel was NOT making an "innocent passage", as you put it, and you know it, rendering your reply a meaningless distraction anyway.

"And of course whoever did it is going to produce evidence of illegality, or assistance."

You claimed that "we" have recently started sinking ships. You produce zero evidence, when you normally put out dozens of links to back your claims. Because of your lack of any evidence, you are just trying to put walls of text out here, trying to muddle the waters when you are caught with a lie. As the saying goes:

It's time to put up or shut up.

"And Trump saying he'd probably sell the oil."

Let me quote you again in case you forgot what you wrote: "ships have been seized and their cargo sold."

You wrote something that has happened. Let me help: It is not the same as future tense. No cargo has been sold.

Let's see how you try to weasel out of this now.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: Logical Next Step?

My you are grasping at straws here!

No, I'm feeding trolls..

The ship was seized within Finland’s territorial waters, where Finland has full jurisdiction.

Also, the vessel was NOT making an "innocent passage", as you put it, and you know it, rendering your reply a meaningless distraction anyway.

Not necessarily. Again, go look at what the actual laws are, especially where there are narrow shipping lanes and overlapping territorial claims. So there's a shipping channel through the Baltic that's regarded as 'international waters'. Hence why Estonia, and some of the other Baltic states have tried to persuade vessels to dock in their ports so they can assert some jurisdiction.

As for 'inncent passage'.. we don't know. It may have been, just as the other ship I mentioned had been and why it was later released. Accidental anchor drops can and do happen, as I've given you examples of. But no, you're a useful idiot who's convinced that every accident is really intentional sabotage. Do you have any idea where the word 'prejudice' came from?

Let's see how you try to weasel out of this now.

I'll just leave you guessing which Mark Twain quote I'm thinking of right now..

[Sandtitz]

Re: Logical Next Step?

"The ship was seized within Finland’s territorial waters, where Finland has full jurisdiction."

"Not necessarily [...] Hence why Estonia, and some of the other Baltic states have tried to persuade vessels to dock in their ports so they can assert some jurisdiction."

That is exactly how Finland handled the case! The vessel was told to first raise the anchor they had dragged dozens of miles, and then enter Finland's territory. The vessel was then seized.

Caught you lying red handed and now you just resort to calling names instead of a pardon. Pretty sad, really.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: Logical Next Step?

That is exactly how Finland handled the case! The vessel was told to first raise the anchor they had dragged dozens of miles, and then enter Finland's territory.

Make your mind up. Now you're saying Fitburg wasn't in Finnish waters? But you don't appear to have looked up 'prejudice', and continue to demonstrate why you'd make a lousy investigator..

So from the article-

Estonian authorities confirmed that five undersea cables were damaged close to the time, noting that some of the earlier cuts and faults may have been due to "stormy weather conditions."

Plus reports there were 3 vessels in the area at the time. Fitburg did appear to have an anchor in the water, but this doesn't mean it was responsible, although you, as an expert investigator have already decided it was Russian sabotage. Not storm damage. Not storm damage causing an anchor to slip on Fitburg or one of the other ships. Not sabotage by one of the other ships. So the basic steps any competent investigation would take to establish guilt.

Then the crew were from Russia, Georgia, Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan and the Captain's nationality is currently unspecified. Which is in itself somewhat curious because regardless, the Captain would be the person most responsible because it's his ship. Sal's videos on these kinds of incidents usually goes into more detail because a) he knows his stuff, and b) being a pro, he gets access to the details from Marine Traffic that show a vessels course and speed. So from a previous incident, showed when a vessel slowed, presumably when their anchor dropped.. Which was the one later ruled to have been accidental, and also happened in fairly heavy seas.

So Finland's said they know the disposition of the crew at the time. I think they've charged the Captain and two of the crew, but not names or nationalities. But they'd know who was on watch at the time, and who should have noticed the anchor dragging. So far, so normal for an investigation. Details aren't known, but when in doubt, blame Russia!

The vessel was then seized.

Nope. Technically it was detained, or arrested. Which would probably leave you, Inspector Titz* shopping for a very large set of handcuffs. But I think I may as well try to put you out of my misery by adding some detail you've obviously missed in reporting, relating to theft.

https://tulli.fi/en/-/finnish-customs-the-cargo-of-the-vessel-fitburg-consisted-of-sanctioned-steel-products

Based on the cargo documentation and the inspection findings, the goods were identified as structural steel. According to the assessment of experts at Finnish Customs, the structural steel in question falls under the EU’s sectoral sanctions. Import of such sanctioned goods into the EU is prohibited under EU sanctions regulations.

Finnish Customs continues to investigate the sequence of events and the applicability of EU sanctions legislation to this case. The goods remain detained pending clarification of import requirements. Furthermore, Finnish Customs has decided to initiate a preliminary inquiry with a view to launching a pre-trial investigation into a potential sanctions violation. This inquiry will be conducted urgently and without delay.

I thought I'd dropped enough hints with the mentions of 'innocent passage', but obviously not. So the steel wasn't 'imported into the EU' other than as a consequence of being on the ship that was detained. It remains the property of the, well, owner, ,which may or may not be some company in Israel because of another term that you probably don't understand, 'FOB'. If Finland does decide it wants a bunch of free steel, and seizes it for theoretical 'sanctions violation', then the owner/customer/importer in Haifa could sue for it's return, along with possibly compensation and damages. After all, the cargo was just passing through and was never intended to be imported into the EU.

So that could just be <cough> stolen steel. Unless maybe Israel was going to turn Russian steel into shovels, so you could buy one and then keep digging..

*bonus hypothetical and another prhrase you probably don't know. Cui bono? Assuming it was sabotage, then by whom? The usual suspect, or I dunno, someone who bribed one of the crew to drop anchor and then get Russia blamed? If Russia really did want to sabotage, then it's smart enough to have accidentally cut both links. After all, they're clearly marked on charts..

[Evil Auditor]

Re: Logical Next Step?

We escalate...

Who is "we"? The one party that is escalating in this conflict is nothing that I'd ever consider to be included in my we nor in the wes of any state bordering the Baltic Sea besides Russia.

[rg287]

Re: Logical Next Step?

Why should we need to protect our infrastructure in this manner? Other states just need to keep their paws off it or face the consequences

You're proposing to commandeer/seize/sink any civilian vessel dragging it's anchor, on the basis the captain might be a foreign agent deliberately aiming to snag something on the sea bed?

Known spy ships like the Yantar are easy enough to track. The problem is that any commercial vessel can be used abusively if your only aim is to snag a cable.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: Logical Next Step?

The problem is that any commercial vessel can be used abusively if your only aim is to snag a cable.

One simple(ish) solution is if insurers, flag states or the IMO made fitting of 'parking brake' indications & loud klaxons mandatory. Accidental anchor dragging is pretty common, and prevention relies on someone noticing, ie seeing the anchor out, or the engine load is a tad excessive for the vessels speed. It wouldn't entirely prevent abuse, but does seem like an easy way to reduce accidents.

[-tim]

Re: Logical Next Step?

Many newer cables in shallow water are already buried in trenches that are nominally 2 meters deep and some of those have been cut recently.

[nematoad]

The youth of today.

...a voluntary military service for its 18-year-olds, prompting widespread protests at schools across the country.

What in Hell's name are they protesting about?

A voluntary service is just that, voluntary. If you don't want to join, then don't join.

[Anon]

Re: The youth of today.

Consider voluntary versus "voluntary".

[Jellied Eel]

Re: The youth of today.

What in Hell's name are they protesting about?

A voluntary service is just that, voluntary. If you don't want to join, then don't join.

Some kids are smart and know that voluntary could easily become compulsory and a return to conscription. 16-25? Left school? Not found a job yet? Report to the benefits office where your friendly recruiter will tell you which service you've been volunteered for. The fortunate sons (and daughters) of our 'leaders' will be exempted from conscription and thus won't find themselves becoming tripwires in Ukraine, or volunteered to participate in the unprovoked full-scale military invasion of Venezuala.

See also-

https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/senate-bill/3567

S.3567 - A bill to authorize the President of the United States to issue letters of marque and reprisal with respect to acts of aggression against the United States by a member of a cartel, or a member of a cartel-linked organization, or any conspirator associated with a cartel, and for other purposes.

Ah, back to the future! Raise the black flag and sell ships to the prize board! Hopefully this won't pass because previously nations using letters of marque for semi-legitimate piracy have ended up starting wars. But think of the money to be made refitting ships as privateers and then armed merchantmen to counter.

Which also gets political around this seizure. Arresting the ship to investigate possible sabotage is fair enough. Keeping the ship and cargo is a bit more dubious. So OK, the cargo might violate EU sanctions, but it's not an EU vessel and the cargo was heading to Israel, and Israel is an EU & NATO ally. Ish.

[An_Old_Dog]

Re: The youth of today.

After reading your comment, I see why they are distributing an "assessment form", vs letting kids just show up at a military recruiting office if they are interested.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: The youth of today.

After reading your comment, I see why they are distributing an "assessment form", vs letting kids just show up at a military recruiting office if they are interested.

Yep. The intent is semi-clear from the Bbc's article-

While the plan is for voluntary service, if the security situation worsens or if too few volunteers came forward, a form of compulsory military service could be considered by the Bundestag.

So some vagueness about what the 'security situation' could be, ie future NATO or Pan-European Defence Organisation committments for future conflicts. I think the proposal is already being challenged for some curiously old-fashioned ideas. Like assessments are compulsory for males, but voluntary for females, which seems a clear breach of equality laws. But it could also produce some interesting results, ie if all 18yr old Germans are forced to do regular health assessments, that data would be rather useful and interesting to German health services. But if Germany goes back to historical inter-war health and fitness activities like glider schools, perhaps Germany's neighbors should start to worry.

[DS999]

Given that it is a cargo vessel

It really has no excuse for dropping/dragging anchor once it has left port the way a fishing vessel might. Caught them red handed!

[sanmigueelbeer]

Re: Given that it is a cargo vessel

They were caught with their pants anchors down.

[David 132]

Re: Given that it is a cargo vessel

It wouldn't have damaged the cable but for a fluke.

[Professor_Iron]

Re: Given that it is a cargo vessel

Dragging an anchor isn't much less common than leaving the handbrakes on to be honest. Getting more frequently stopped by coast guards probably doesn't help.

[DS999]

Re: Given that it is a cargo vessel

Bullshit.

If you leave your handbrake on it becomes IMMEDIATELY apparent. No one is driving miles down the road with it engaged.

If you "forget" to pull up your anchor when you leave port you'll quickly become aware of it because there's a lot of detritus in most harbors that serve cargo traffic. Even if you did the anchor chain isn't going to be let out very far so it won't be dragging once you reach water deeper than the harbor. Unless you're gonna try to tell me that your anchor chain is going to be letting out while you're underway and NO ONE is going to notice.

Cover for Putin's criminals all you want, we see right thru you Ivan!

[Jellied Eel]

Re: Given that it is a cargo vessel

Unless you're gonna try to tell me that your anchor chain is going to be letting out while you're underway and NO ONE is going to notice.

Do the world a favour and watch this video-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWkKnyEu_Bc

Where Sal reports on another 'sabotage' that was later determined to be a combination of accident and negligence. He explains how this can happen. Anchor while en route, crew doesn't notice because autopilot is engaged and automatically cranks up the power to maintain speed. The MV Vehzen had apparently been 'driving with the handbrake on' for 24hrs before it was stopped. Cars have nice warning lights if your handbrake is on, ships.. apparently don't, which strikes me as something of a design deficiency.

Cover for Putin's criminals all you want, we see right thru you Ivan!

Alternatively, maybe check your paranoia? Accidents happen, mistakes get made and the Ursa Major really was sunk by some particularly agressive sea cucumbers that had migrated having grown fat on the hydrocarbons from the NordStream not-sabotage..Also watch this one cos it's kind of funny-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-XPJsB53CU

An oil tanker outran the US Navy and escaped..

[VoiceOfTruth]

The Register is just another American propaganda tool

Silently censoring unpopular views, meaning views which don't correspond with the American-centric world the Register is now a tool for.

We often see reports in The Reg about Chinese censorship, but when The Reg does it, is that not hypocrisy?

Now that the USA is conducting another illegal invasion and kidnapping people, where are the calls to cut off links with this oil-thirsty ogre? Is it is wrong for Russia to invade Ukraine, why is it not wrong for the USA to invade Venezuela?

The Reg is just another brick in the American propaganda wall. Like the Berlin wall, that wall will be smashed down one day.

[Pussifer]

Re: The Register is just another American propaganda tool

Que?

There it is again - a 'voice' that has truth its name going on about how their feelings are hurt, in this case censorship - censorship they probably can't even point to.

I don't agree with what the US has just done in Venezuela but it's going to piss off Putin that the Trump regime pulled this off in hours whereas Putin's 'special military operation' didn't take the week they thought it would. Trump is going to crow and crow. :-(

[Jellied Eel]

Re: The Register is just another American propaganda tool

I don't agree with what the US has just done in Venezuela but it's going to piss off Putin that the Trump regime pulled this off in hours whereas Putin's 'special military operation' didn't take the week they thought it would. Trump is going to crow and crow. :-(

It was Gen. Milley that coined the 3-day SMO meme, and unlike with the Venezuelan SMO, the objective didn't use Spetsnaz to kidnap Zelensky. I also don't think it'll annoy Putin too much. Russia, China and the BRICS nations will just exploit the situation and point out that invading sovereign nations & kidnapping heads of state isn't really the behaviour expected of the guardians of 'International rules based order'. But then neither is hijacking ships and stealing their cargoes.

It'll also present problems (again) for the EU in having to defend the US and counter claims of hypocrisy. But given Kallas is the EU's chief diplomat, the tweets are likely to be entertaining. But the piracy and other antics make the world less stable, and weaken the 'West'.. Which probably won't trouble Trump too much because he'll be gone in a few years, leaving America as a rogue nation rather than peacemaker. We're back to the dark days of gunboat diplomacy.

[EvilDrSmith]

Re: The Register is just another American propaganda tool

"unlike with the Venezuelan SMO, the objective didn't use Spetsnaz to kidnap Zelensky"

No, The Russians tried (repeatedly) to assassinated President Zelensky.

Fortunately, they failed (repeatedly).

[Jellied Eel]

Re: The Register is just another American propaganda tool

No, The Russians tried (repeatedly) to assassinated President Zelensky.

citation needed

They did release drone footage showing Zelensky and his motorcade leaving a medal award ceremony in Odessa a couple of years ago. They waited until he was clear before crashing the ceremony with a couple of kinzhals. There's no evidence they've tried to kill him, and before Zelensky's xmas death wish & the drone attack on Putin's residence, Russia probably had no desire to martyr him.

[Evil Auditor]

Re: The Register is just another American propaganda tool

I'm a thorough atheist but Jesus Freaking Christ! Some people here need to take their medication. Or get off the interwebs. Guys, it's not healthy to consume that amount of misinformation. It's enough that in real life I already have to deal with some "conspirationalised" people and some I like to call Putin's Suppositories.

_{And before one or both of you misinterprets my comment as a call for censorship, it is not. Feel free to continue posting whatever you want. As I feel free to comment on that the way I see fit.}

[Phil O'Sophical]

Re: The Register is just another American propaganda tool

I don't agree with what the US has just done in Venezuela but it's going to piss off Putin

I think it's unlikely that Putin will be upset. Despite Trump's claims, it seems unlikely that the invasion of Venezuela and kidnapping of Maduro and his wife are legal under international law. I'd say that Putin, Xi and Kim are busy having fun working out how to drag Trump in front of the international court.

He won't go, of course, any more than Putin will for his actions in Ukraine, but Starmer and the various EU leaders will have to come off the fence and either back the law, or back Trump out of fear of economic punishment. Lose-lose for them, but Trump won't care.

[MiguelC]

re: Putin, Xi and Kim are busy having fun working out how to drag Trump in front of the international court

Not at all, they'll be partying seing as DT just validated foreign interference and unsanctioned international agression for all of them

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The Register is just another American propaganda tool

"censorship they probably can't even point to."

Voice Of Truth's original post and everyone's replies to it (including mine) actually were silently removed with no sign that the moderators removed them.

I never agree with any of VoT's posts but in this case they are correct about getting silently censored.

Can't say I actually approve of that myself unless there was a violation of the forum rules.

[Eric 9001]

Re: The Register is just another American propaganda tool

Even if the a post apparently violates the rules™, is it acceptable that replies which don't violate the rules are censored too?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The Register is just another American propaganda tool

No, I do not.

Normally what happens is that when a moderator removes a post there is a notice that the post had been removed but all replies to the offending posts do not get removed so it was a bit unusual in that there was no notice of removal posted and all replies below it were also silently removed.

I won't repeat what VoT posted, it was somewhat controversial but I didn't think it should have been censored.

VoT always posts when there is an article where either Russia or China has been accused of doing something naughty and they will predictably post whataboutisms that bring up naughtiness done by the US or European countries as they did in the in their censored post.

[Sandtitz]

Re: The Register is just another American propaganda tool

"I won't repeat what VoT posted, it was somewhat controversial but I didn't think it should have been censored."

VoT has repeatedly claimed El Reg author is working for a US based TLA when she has penned China linked hacker news here.

No newspaper would print these kinds of accusations against their their personnel without proof, and from an anonymous pen name to boot.

Why should The Register let them be published either?

[Will Godfrey]

grilled

I hope that's going to be on both sides.

[midgepad]

Re: grilled

The Reg is one side.

People are quite free to spout bile and bollux.

But that does not even imply a duty by anyone else to print it, serve it, or repeat it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hairy

This could get hairy since destroying our infrastructure, even if it's at sea, is a "casus belli" (act of war) and could lead to a military response.

Russia has already been warned that acts of sabotage and assassinations could be seen as an act of war. Luckily they got the message and things have quieted down. For now.

But I'm guessing that Russia views that the open sea is well...open and that they can therefore get away with it. Maybe it's time to send them another diplomatic message.

[Anonymous Coward]

Next Episode of "Who, Me?" will be a banger

This one time, i was accidentally dragging my anchor down the sea bed when I took out half of the Internet for Europe and caused an international incident...lol....

[awomanmanhasaname]

Maybe they should try prosecuting in a court system that won't let them go. Like happened recently.

Ukraine, USA, Argentina would do.

[Jellied Eel]

Maybe they should try prosecuting in a court system that won't let them go.

Err.. All court systems are supposed to let people (and ships, cargo) go, if they're innocent.. Which is part of the problem with politics at the moment and a presumption of guilt rather than innocence. Don't waste time and money on investigations, evidence collection, just hang'em all!

[MJI]

Seize and Sell ships for scrap

If proven to have ripped a cable