New Jolla phone and Sailfish 5 offer a break from iOS-Android monotony

After successful crowdfunding, the latest release of the original handheld Linux distro will power a new handset coming in mid-2026. The initial crowdfunding drive for the new Jolla Phone seems to have gone well: at the time of writing, the new device has comfortably passed double the number of orders needed to go into …

[David 132]

Laughing, with hindsight

Wow. That iPhone article you linked to has not aged well. Almost as badly as Slashdot's infamous 8-word review, "No wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame."

Hindsight, eh?

[DS999]

Re: Laughing, with hindsight

They wrote that a month before the iPhone was publicly unveiled, and concept art of what people thought it would look like almost always included an iPod style clickwheel, or if not some form of number buttons or slide out keyboard - I even remember seeing a circular ring of number of buttons ala pre touchtone phones that also functioned as a clickwheel. I don't recall seeing ANYONE predicting it would be pure touchscreen with only a single button at the bottom (though I'm sure many will now claim that's what they predicted, I'll only believe it if they can link to something the Wayback Machine archived prior to the big reveal) If they had released what people were speculating about it, it would have failed just like that author predicted.

I wonder what the Reg wrote after Jobs' dog & pony show, and if they'd changed their tune after seeing it or became even more convinced it would fail?

Too bad that article didn't have any comments, it would have been fun to read what people thought about it. If anyone had countered that article with a claim "they will be selling hundreds of millions of them a year inside a decade" they are probably sitting on an island somewhere sipping drinks. And they own the island.

[JLV]

Re: Laughing, with hindsight

I dunno. The article was not wrong in pointing out some risks and the fact that those risks didn't materialize doesn't invalidate that they were very real at the time.

- Dominance of networks. That's exactly the vibe I remember at launch date, the networks had all sorts of power and could dictate a lot of terms. Apple successfully appealed to the love of shiny over their head, but it was good call to make at the time.

- UI and ease of use. Apple didn't invent touchscreens, but it did manage, as it occasionally does, to create a significantly enhanced V2 of a not very promising V1 (the iPod wasn't the first such device either. It's killer feature was that you could browse your music while your current song kept on playing. I had an early 6gb HDD MP3 player - it didn't). Once the iPhone was out, most existing phone looked pretty passé, except for the special case of the full keyboard ones like the BlackBerry. Had BlackBerry managed to spruce up its OS quickly and offer a touch screen, maybe it would have survived. The BB10, years later, was really nice, I had one. But it was too late.

Though the iPhone didn't really start out with 3rd party apps in the initial version, when they came, it was also a huge improvement over the fractured app ecosystem of the time. IIRC Nokia apps (with a 40 or 50% manufacturer's cut, not 30%) didn't even tend to work across different Nokia models.

Bottom line, the entry of a then-standard "smartphone" into the competitive arena existing at the time, which the article was predicting, wouldn't have gone well. If highly remunerated Nokia and MS execs could not get a clue after the iPhone came out, pity the poor Reg hack who did no better before.

Apple doesn't always get it right. The VisionPro hasn't redefined VR/AR into a wider adoption than the existing mostly-game mindset, for example. The iCar apparently has been shelved without anyone knowing what it would have been like.

[DS999]

Re: Laughing, with hindsight

Dominance of networks

Apple only needed to find one that was self interested enough to accept an exclusive in exchange for giving up their usual control. AT&T did very well with that exclusive in the US, towards the end of it having the iPhone drove millions of subscribers to AT&T's network.

Despite giving up that control they still maintained pretty high pricing in the US until the last few years when widespread 5G meant bandwidth had finally achieved a supply greater than the previously insatiable demand. So long as you aren't still a sucker on postpaid at least. And heck, they still have some vestiges of that control on the Android side.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Laughing, with hindsight

In Europe I think the iPhone could only be purchased through a network provider that included data in the contract. IMO this was a very important aspect in establishing the iPhone’s popularity (having data wasn’t really a thing at the time for Average User), quickly followed by smartphones in general.

And for reference, to show my age, I believe my first data contract included 100 MB pm :o

[DS999]

Re: Laughing, with hindsight

In the US AT&T had "unlimited" data on the iPhone from day one in all the plans they offered. "Unlimited" in quotes because the original one was 2G and they didn't go 3G until 2008 so it wasn't like you wanted to download iOS updates via cellular unless you enjoyed pain.

[Liam Proven]

Re: Laughing, with hindsight

> Wow. That iPhone article you linked to has not aged well.

That's why I linked to it. :-)

It was a common view at the time. In 2006 I wrote a blog post about how much I coveted the newly-announced gadget. I said I thought it was transformative and category-redefining.

Aha! Found it. Archived it in case.

https://archive.ph/32l9S

«

It looks gorgeous. As I kinda expected, it redefines what a cellphone is and does. I expect it will cause a considerable shakeup in the market when it finally ships. I also expect the conventional phone/mobile/PC analysts not to Get It at all, to dismiss it as an expensive toy, and to be taken aback when it sells very well. And I don't expect the makers of conventional featurephones and smartphones will understand why it's good at what it does or why it's successful, and as a result, at least at first, it'll have relatively little impact on mainstream phone design - apart from they'll go black with colourful icons, in an attempt to look like an Apple phone.

»

Most of my friends were intensely sceptical. No, they said, I was wrong, it was nothing special, other gadgets did more, etc. etc.

It's a hilarious thread. Couple of big industry pundits in there telling me how totally wrong I am.

And someone linked to Bill Ray's post! I hadn't met Bill then. He's a friend in real life now.

Welp. I was right, they were wrong. I am used to that. ;-)

In about 1989, I said Windows 3 would be huge. My colleagues mocked me.

In 2000, I spent real money upgrading an old PowerMac 7600 so I could run the new Mac OS X. I said it'd be big. Most of my Mac owning friends hated it, and some decamped to Windows.

In 2002, when WinXP came out, I said it was bad, and that Linux was going to be big.

Here on the Reg in about 2010 or something, I said containers would be the next big thing in Linux.

I mean, I also said that OS/2 2.0 was going to be amazing -- and I was right, it was -- but I said it'd be a hit, and I was wrong there.

[Fruit and Nutcase]

Once bitten...

Nokia N9, then JP1. Subscribed to the tablet - didn't get one, but was refunded eventually.

I may just try Sailfish 5 on another Xperia X10, and sit out the this - or take a punt on this - got a couple of weeks to decide. Working maps is a dealbreaker - don't use it often, but is handy when you need it.

[Snake]

Re: Once bitten...

The article didn't mention trying banking apps either.

If Maps doesn't work then it is possible that location services doesn't work in the compatibility layer, damning many apps out there.

[Liam Proven]

Re: Once bitten...

> The article didn't mention trying banking apps either.

I try to avoid them, to be honest. I intentionally completely avoid NFC and electronic payments. A plastic card is tiny, can do more, never needs charging, never runs out of battery at a bad time, you can use it with gloves on, it needs synching, and so on.

I do have the apps for checking my balance and so on. I did not try them on a loaner review phone, no. I don't even have them on my own spare travel handset.

They may work, they may not. I don't know.

If you are into all the wireless payment type things, and having a pocket client to your wireless smart cloud, then this may not be the device for you. Personally I am more of a tech Luddite in this way -- and I say that proudly and with respect -- and I don't want it. I think this is more likely to appeal to people who only grudgingly use the cloud and prefer less connectivity to more, and less integration to more.

(Which is why I am surprised it does not have a headphone port.)

I tried the only Sailfish native mapping app I could fine, PureMaps. Both the Jolla Store version and the more current RPM. Neither worked. But it could be that the phone's GPS chip isn't fully supported.

[msknight]

Re: Once bitten...

That is the one thing about Sailfish. Lack of support and difficulty getting banking apps, shopping apps, car parking apps, etc. to work.

It is something which caused me serious pain, even as a Sailfish backer in 2013 and still Sailfish throughout.

I did manage to get the UK competition authority and Jolla talking, however, so something might come of that.

I'm a bit miffed that I missed the launch this time around, but hey. Can't afford a new phone at the minute and my Xperia running Sailfish is still going strong and I would definitely miss a headphone post. Maybe next year... when they reintroduce headphone jacks.

Good to read that the backs might make a comeback. They have serious potential, and I loved how I change the back and it instantly changes behaviour/ringtones/volumes/etc. (although it was a bit plastic-snappy, etc. and didn't feel good.)

[Snake]

Re: completely avoid NFC and electronic payments

"I do have the apps for checking my balance and so on."

Both clauses are exactly like me, I'm not trusting NFC or tap payments, thank you very much. I can pull out a card when and where I need it.

Speaking of which, one time I was trying to get onto mass transit and needed to find my (paid-for) travel card. I pulled out my wallet and was looking inside for the card...and the electronic turnstile read one of my tap-and-pay physical debit cards and electronically charged me for the fee 'automagically'.

>:/

Boy, was I PISSED!!

So now all my cards are held in RFID-protective shields in my wallet. I suggest you do the same.

[Liam Proven]

Re: Once bitten...

> it needs synching

* it NEVER needs synching

[Pentona]

Re: Once bitten...

As a Sailfish user since the beginning, I can tell that many banking apps, for example N26 and many Finnish banks, do work. As do some Android navigation apps, and there are native Sailfish navigation apps like OSMScout.

[dumol]

Re: Once bitten...

Maps work, both native apps and Android ones. Some Android apps do require Google Play services. Most of them, including many banking apps, are fine with microG, the open-source reverse-engineered alternative.

Posted from Sailfish OS. (And by the way, using OKboard from OpenRepos for typing with swipes.)

[williamyf]

Re: Once bitten...

had a Nokia N9, then a Blackberry Q10. gestures were nice, nah, futuristic in the late '00s and early '10s, but Android (and I suspect iOS) have caught up.

I LIKE to bank in my phone, and NEED Entrust to enter into my bank from the desktop, thank you very much.

I NEED to use the eGovt Apps my Govt makes available.

I WANT to be able to get a map when I travel, or when I go to less familiar places in my city.

If a platform can not give me that, why bother.

It seems that Huawei HarmonyOS-NEXT can give me that, but I will not be using it any time soon now.

I'll stick to my razr 2024 and clicks keyboards cover combo for the time being, thank you very much.

We can talk again when the flexible screen gives up the ghost.

[thedarkstar]

Re: Once bitten...

I'm curious, do you like, need or want to use capitals to try and get some sort of effect?

Very similar to reading a tweet from Trump, random words in capitals.

[Crypto Monad]

Re: Once bitten...

I won't be buying any crowdfunded communication device again.

I bought one of the early Planet Computers "Gemini" devices, with a built-in keyboard (funded via Indiegogo). After a single upgrade to Android 8.1 a few months after initial release, they abandoned all further software updates. As a result, it rapidly became useless for things like NHS, banking apps etc.

Bizarrely, they are still selling trying to flog the remaining few units. The wifi-only version at least appears to be still in stock.

[Liam Proven]

Re: Once bitten...

> I won't be buying any crowdfunded communication device again.

You do you. But this company has been around for over a decade, has launched 2 devices successfully (and one less so), and maintained its OS for 13 years. It is as solid as crowdfunding type ventures

get.

> I bought one of the early Planet Computers "Gemini" devices, with a built-in keyboard (funded via Indiegogo).

Yep, me too. I used it for a good 5 years and found it fantastic as a mobile note-taking tool.

> they abandoned all further software updates

No, they did not. Mediatek did. I explained why in detail here:

https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/03/armbian_project_releases_version_2202/

See the sidebar. I also mentioned that Sailfish supported it, and it did until _this year_ which is a pretty good innings.

I still use it occasionally. It still works fine.

> As a result, it rapidly became useless for things like NHS, banking apps etc.

It is only marginally a phone. As a pocket computer it's still fine. Things like that are better done in a more current device.

The lack of OS updates doesn't prevent app updates, and it still works fine. The OS is in ROM and if you don't put a SIM in it, as I do not, then it is pretty safe.

[doublelayer]

Re: Once bitten...

"this company has been around for over a decade, has launched 2 devices successfully (and one less so), and maintained its OS for 13 years."

Of those defenses, only one of them, that the company has been around, doesn't contradict their complaints. They complained that the company has not, in fact, maintained the OS for years. The fact that they released a second device and also got people to buy it, a device that also got almost no updates, doesn't help the point, especially as one reason their third device failed was that people had learned that they should expect no software updates and some people need them, something that was not yet evident when they parleyed their market success with their first product into quick sales of a second.

While some features of a device can indeed work for a long time, software updates aren't as meaningless to many of us as they seem to be to you. Old Android versions do start to lose support from apps. Not everything, but sometimes I don't want to play the game of guessing whether a certain app will work or if I need to hunt for something that has the same features but won't balk. Security updates are important too; what's the security patch date on that Gemini? The same thing is true for Linux kernel updates for Debian or Sailfish, because if the kernel is very old, then some features I can easily get on something with a new one are unavailable, and sooner or later, that's going to affect the distros too. I've dealt with the problems that happen when a distro has left a kernel version behind but I can't, and they can result in boot failures.

We've had this debate before. I think you are taking your fondness for the form factor of the Gemini and letting it decide your opinion on everything else related to it. That is a very bad thing to do if you want to convince anyone. I wanted a Gemini when they launched too. The hardware looked brilliant and I was especially interested in having a native Linux option as there are things I want to run from a mobile device which don't work too well from Android's layers. If someone else built a similar thing, I'd still be interested. But not Planet, because it has become obvious that Planet has no interest in their products lasting very long in software, so even if that's not a problem for some use case, why should I expect that they're going to pay proper attention to hardware either?

[Liam Proven]

Re: Once bitten...

> Of those defenses, only one of them, that the company has been around, doesn't contradict their complaints.

Just checking: we're talking Planet, not Jolla, right?

As I have said before, I like cheap Chinese phones:

https://www.theregister.com/2022/06/02/murena_e_foundation_phone_test/

Phones lead hard lives. They are, sadly, almost disposable. If it lasts 2+ years that's a triumph.

I have had half a dozen Android phones now that only got 1 update ever, which was the first time I turned them on and connected to wifi.

You know what? They still worked. They worked for 2-3 years until they were too slow or had too little battery life or a cracked screen or case or something.

Old Android is not a serious problem. The apps get updates. It keeps working. Newish browser, chat apps, soc.net clients, and I'm good.

I don't play games. I don't do a lot of photography. I keep my music as actual old fashioned MP3s on an SD card. Low tech but it *works*. Screw streaming.

The best I've had is an Umidigi F2. It cost £125 in 2020 and it's still working. When I bought its replacement in 2023 I got a local shop to fit a £3 new battery and £3 new back for £25. It's still my spare device and still lasts 2-3 days in light use.

Cheap phones are great because if they get stolen or broken it doesn't matter so much. You haven't lost a month or 2's disposable income, you've lost 3 or 4 curries (other cuisines are available).

They never get updates _and it doesn't matter_.

Cheap phones use cheap SoCs and the SoC makers don't upgrade the OS and that's why they are cheap.

Expensive phones use expensive SoCs and get upgrades and they are still clapped out and broken in 2-3Y. So no big win.

If the Gemini was £1000 I wouldn't have bought one.

As it is, I did, and it has lasted so long its old Android is now a limitation and that is bloody impressive.

Don't complain about things that are not deal breakers.

Yes there are things that are nice to have but in my book paying 4-5x as much for a phone that lasts at best 2x as long is not a good deal.

[doublelayer]

Re: Once bitten...

Yes, I was talking about Planet. Jolla is in a different camp.

We have different ideas of how important software updates can be and how disposable hardware is. The Gemini cost £500. That is not in the buy and discard category for me. That is more than I've spent on any of my phones individually, and not one of them has been discarded within two years. If you bought a Gemini only expecting it to last that long, maybe that explains why you find something acceptable when I do not.

There's also a big difference to me between something that runs and something that runs up-to-date software. This has annoyed me about Android from the start, because Android was always releasing new features that I wanted, my phone's hardware should have been capable of running because other phones were running it on the same SoC, but my manufacturer wouldn't give me. I can't single out Planet for that, although I'm not willing to jump aboard your "blame MediaTek" train when I can point to phones using the same MediaTek chips that had no problem getting lots more updates. But Planet could have been the exception, I think they had sufficient understanding of the market they were selling to to know that people wanted and probably expected them to, and I think their choice not to is why they can't sell things successfully anymore. For example, when they tried to sell a desktop, most of their croudfunding backers were people who posted the minimum bid just to warn other people off in the comments.

I can get Android phones that will get many years of updates (now, because they've figured out some people won't buy without that), but it's not just Android. If I'm using a Linux mode, and that's one of the major reasons I wanted one, I want that to run updated software.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Once bitten...

Puremaps works fine. There are two other native maps, and a topomap from Android works fine.

[eszklar]

@Liam:

As much as I would love to try modern SailfishOS hardware/software I simply can't purchase it here in Canada. So, I'll make do using GrapheneOS and Pixels.

[Liam Proven]

> I simply can't purchase it here in Canada

I am sorry. I want to be sympathetic, but I can't.

There are, to an approximation, 100x more devices, products and services that are _only_ available in North America that Europeans can't have than there are the same in Europe that those in NA can't get.

See this article?

https://www.theregister.com/Print/2011/11/10/portable_writing_tool/

In researching that, I bought a Z88, an Amstrad NC100, and no fewer than 3 Alphasmarts, a 3000, a Neo, and a Dana Wireless.

I paid about £12 each for the 2 UK devices and one of them I bicycled over to collect.

I paid $25 for the Dana, plus $25 shipping to a helpful friend in Baltimore, then another $75 for her to ship it to me in London -- that little unknown backwards town in a banana republic, you may have heard of it -- because the vendor would not ship to me because I lived in an unknown village in a tiny remote island far beyond the edge of civilisation.

I found an SRAM card for the Amstrad. It was in the USA. They have dozens of them. They wouldn't ship at all. Not to me, a savage in a loincloth with a bone through his nose, in Qwghlm or something. No siree bob. No they wouldn't ship to an intermediary unless I bought a hundred as a business order.

No. Sorry. Sympathy gland stopped working. It's run dry. Nothing left to give.

Get a mate to send it to you.

[BinkyTheMagicPaperclip]

Oh god, was that SRAM card vendor Best-Electronics California? Absolute nightmare to attempt to use, I gave up. Even outdated websites in the late 90s were easier to get on with than them.

Now it looks like the only option that doesn't need an entire organ for purchase is via various Chinese vendors on ebay. I have *one* 512KB SRAM card that I've used to get CP/M on an NC200 or NC100 (it does work, but there's caveats with each of the three different CP/M types for the NC series), any UK based SRAM card vendor expects well north of 100 notes for a card.

[Liam Proven]

> Oh god, was that SRAM card vendor Best-Electronics California?

I can't remember now -- terrifyingly that article was well over a decade ago -- but it might well have been.

It was going to be something like $10 for a card, $90 for shipping in the US, preferred order size 20 pieces. >_<

[doublelayer]

Unfortunately, that's far too common in my experience whenever intercontinental shipping comes up. Unless they already planned their business around it, it often ends up being far too expensive and chaotic, with some companies shipping things with no customs forms and some refusing to ship on the theory that you won't deal with import requirements but will try to blame them for it. I don't think it's unique to getting things from the US. A lot of companies don't seem to have planned for customers outside their country or one of a few near ones.

[neilg]

I had an NC100. Full sized keyboard that you could type on (Silently) & a full days use from a couple of AA batteries. Fantastic.

My Psion 5mx replaced it. Wish I'd kept both.

[werdsmith]

I have had Sailfish on Gemini and Xperia for years and they would be my preference if I wasn’t dependent on some cloudy stuff.

I have my name on one of these new ones. Support the underdog, we need an alternative.

[Anonymous Coward]

Original Jolla

I still have an original Jolla - but I suspect it will stop working soon if not already as it falls back to 3G for voice calls and uses 4G for data only. Will have to try it sometime.

The thing I most liked about it is that you could leave it on your desk for 99% of the time - face down was "do not disturb mode", face up the screen could be tapped and the status would show. If you had messages then you could pick it up and do stuff, and if you didn't then you didn't need to touch it further. I found this to be very handy. I can't do that on the iPhone where it won't recognise my face until I pick it up - but picking it up is the very thing I don't want to have to do if I can avoid it.

I have Sailfish on an Experia but the hardware doesn't support the tap capability, so it's not the same. I had no trouble installing Here maps though.[1]

The main problem I have with Sailfish is the lack of integration - no shared contacts with a PC, for example. (Or at least not when I last tried it.) Also the purity of the "slide down to choose" interface has been diluted overtime. The modern Sailfish is quite different to the original Jolla in that respect and for the worse, which is a shame because it was and is genuinely different. But since you'll be mostly using Android apps it's all a bit irrelevant. ;-)

And I really wanted a tablet but lost my money. I got a partial refund and some "vouchers" for free Sailfish licenses - but that hardly compensates when you still have to shell out for a (2nd hand) Experia.

[1] Here maps is another story in itself. It used to work well offline - it just got on with giving directions and if you had no connectivity then it wouldn't do traffic or rerouting, but otherwise fine. The modern version, on the iPhone at least, now insists on being set to either on or offline at the start of a journey, regardless of whether you have the map downloaded. Why, developers, why? At least the maps finally update at a reasonable rate instead of the 19,200 baud they used to do.

[Liam Proven]

Re: Original Jolla

> I had no trouble installing Here maps though.[1]

Oh, I could install it fine!

It didn't show a map, or let me search for a place to download an offline one.

Here used to be great but the company has castrated and hamstrung it. They probably got a cash bung from some American billionaire oligarch outfit to pretend it's a rival while killing it by 1000 cuts.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Original Jolla

> It didn't show a map, or let me search for a place to download an offline one.

Strange. It's built into the app. No need to search for anything - just choose from the list of available regions and maps.

> Here used to be great but the company has castrated and hamstrung it. They probably got a cash bung from some American billionaire oligarch outfit to pretend it's a rival while killing it by 1000 cuts.

Here is majority owned by Audi, BMW and Daimler. It's unlikely they got a cash bung. :-)

[Liam Proven]

Re: Original Jolla

> just choose from the list of available regions and maps.

I am aware. I used to run it on Android. Hell, with the capacity of modern phones, it may still be there and I've forgotten.

But I couldn't even get the list.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Original Jolla

> But I couldn't even get the list.

Okay, I just tried re-installing under Tampella on the Experia.

1) The version of Here on the FDroid store is broken. It crashes on startup - mostly I think because it is so old that it is using the old (internal) Here API. (But I can't be bothered to find a log file and check properly.)

2) I got a fully-working version of Here maps by (a) installing the Aurora Store, (b) giving my Google Play Store login details, and (c) installing Here maps from Aurora. It all "just worked" and it came up with a map and my current location.

- I gave it permissions to use location while running.

- I can't recall if it asked for file permissions but if it did I gave it permission to access local and SD card storage.

- Android AppSupport and MicroG are enabled

[Liam Proven]

Re: Original Jolla

> 2) I got a fully-working version of Here maps by (a) installing the Aurora Store

I think that's where I got it.

Sorry, but I tried and reported on it. It may have been user error but no app I tried that managed to draw a map knew where I was.

Some people are incredulous that for 2+ years I've used phones that don't make or take calls. I don't need that much. But no maps is serious, for me. No banking apps, no payments? Don't care.

[I am David Jones]

The best sat-nav device is the one you have in your pocket

[Fruit and Nutcase]

Whichever satnav, use it sparingly/for new route finding. Where possible, study route in advance and use hybrid route guidance which also uses the bit in-between your ears, lest that ability vanes.

[werdsmith]

Most car sat nav are woefully bad at updating to latest maps. Some you have to wait for a main dealer service or take it in to be done. Some want silly money for an update.

Which is why car play and android auto are so popular.

[thedarkstar]

Can't fault Volvo to be fair, I have a 10 year old XC90 with Sensus and it still gets map updates OTA (well, need to connect it to phone hotspot) for no charge.

By contrast our other car, a 2017 Vauxhall/Opel had one year of map updates made available (we didn't pay as it was £80ish) before being abandoned by GM.

Also highly recommend Syn3 Updater (https://cyanlabs.net/applications/syn3updater/) for Ford cars with Sync 3 but pre-2020/21 as it gives them the latest software and maps too (although not as seamless as vendor OTA)

[Fruit and Nutcase]

Garmin Campervan satnav. Bigger display and can update maps directly via WiFi.

Can set the vehicle size/routing to normal.

https://www.garmin.com/en-GB/p/786903/

[SteveTM]

I see nothing here worthy of production. There are better spec phones on the used market that can be flashed with something different if that appeals, but good luck getting any payment or banking apps to work!

[I am David Jones]

This was probably ~15 years ago but I’ve also had problems with a banking app on a de-flashed phone. And that ended my foray into flashing phones.

What particularly pissed me off was the fact that online banking with any browser on any system was deemed A-OK.

[KittenHuffer]

The one thing I want to know is .....

..... does it allow you to record your own phone calls?

If it does then I want one!

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The one thing I want to know is .....

It does.

https://docs.sailfishos.org/Support/Help_Articles/Phone/#recording-conversations

[Anonymous Coward]

GrapheneOS feel attacked

Jolly Boys/Jolla seem to have upset GrapheneOS - apparenly GrapheneOS feel attacked and harrassed by Sailfish users, and GrapheneOS have launched one of their campaigns to convince everyone that GOS is the only secure phone (I don't necessarily disagree, but I don't think anyone who needs Sailfish would install GrapheneOS by mistake or vice versa - they move in different markets/user bases).

[ianbetteridge]

Re: GrapheneOS feel attacked

I like Graphene, but it's developers really do appear to be quite prickly.

[Liam Proven]

Re: GrapheneOS feel attacked

> I like Graphene, but it's developers really do appear to be quite prickly.

Indeed so. I have considered an article about this but it would come over as an attack.

Suffice to say that virtually everyone else in the phone OS market that I've talked to dislikes the GrapheneOS crew and won't work with them.

[cherries]

Re: GrapheneOS feel attacked

> Suffice to say that virtually everyone else in the phone OS market that I've talked to dislikes the GrapheneOS crew and won't work with them.

Hello! I know this comment is 9 days late, but do you mind elaborating on this comment further?

[Dan 55]

Re: GrapheneOS feel attacked

apparenly GrapheneOS feel attacked and harrassed

Must be a Tuesday.

[jpennycook]

Tizen

> The Sailfish OS has a long history: it's a remote descendant of the Maemo OS from the Nokia 770 internet tablet, which came out twenty years ago. Maemo became Meego, which Nokia drove off the rails. Meego was renamed Mer, then revived as Sailfish. Version 1.0 launched in February 2014.

There was Intel's Moblin, and Samsung's Tizen, in the mix somewhere too

[Liam Proven]

Re: Tizen

> There was Intel's Moblin, and Samsung's Tizen, in the mix somewhere too

Tizen still exists and it is apparently selling in the embedded market.

Moblin got rolled into Meego -- there is probably a little of it in Sailfish, as it is one of the ancestors.

I did not spell this out as it did not seem relevant and the Reg has covered it in some depth in the past.

[Bundyo]

Re: Tizen

Moblin was the Intel's netbook mini-laptop OS, which then merged with Nokia's Maemo to become MeeGo for desktop/laptops and MeeGo Harmattan for N900.

[captain veg]

Re: Tizen

Yep, and they shot the wrong guy. Maemo was DEB-based, Moblin RPM. Meego got lumbered with the purple helmet and it looks like Sailfish is still similarly afflicted, which is a shame. Still, my N900 was utterly fabulous, and a new Jolla with a physical keyboard, should such an otherhalf accessory emerge, would be quite compelling. I think I know what I want for christmas.

-A.

[Anonymous Coward]

App stores

Sailfish has a problem with app stores (not to mention a lack of apps) - you can get some from the Jolla store. For others, you need another app store. For still others, you need a third app store. Some apps from one store depend on libraries from another.

[Liam Proven]

Re: App stores

> Sailfish has a problem with app stores

I did explicitly spell this out, including naming the 3 app stores that I tried: Jolla Store, Chum, and StoreMan.

[Roj Blake]

Jolly Boys

They were never the same after their coach exploded during their annual day trip to Margate.

[Liam Proven]

Re: Jolly Boys

Never, ever, bloody anything ever!

Look, just because my second name is Jolly doesn't mean I have to be jolly all the fucking time!

[Dan 55]

Re: Jolly Boys

That remains to be Proven.

[BinkyTheMagicPaperclip]

Needs wireless charging, too expensive

The removable battery is nice, but if they're going for that it really needs a headphone port. The real problem, however, is that it doesn't compete well against GrapheneOS.

I've had numerous boutique or custom ROM based phones and my conclusion learned the hard way is they need a large company to support them. When I had a Blackberry Priv it had a number of issues, but Blackberry were large enough to fix them, and they genuinely cared about the end user experience[1], well at least until they dropped the security patch support two years in and made the phone a useless brick.

USB-A ports are supposed to support 10,000 insertions, but I've had multiple phones die due to the charging port failing. Phones *need* wireless charging to maintain longevity.

Tried Sailfish back some time between 2012-2015 on my Xperia Pro, found I absolutely hate swipe based interfaces[2], and you're always going to be scratching around for apps.

In the end I got a Pixel 9 Pro on a large discount, added a Clicks keyboard case[3], and installed GrapheneOS. It's the first third party ROM that has been hassle free. All the other ones, or boutique company ROMs have had issues.

Sailfish is not open source. It's nice the hardware is a bit more open, but I'd rather spend an equivalent amount - or much less (the only reason I bought a Pixel was for the keyboard case support), and have it supported by a large company.

[1] Blackberry actually thought about what an end user wanted to do! How they would use the keyboard, what apps they would run, that e-mail was important. This has been completely absent with the FXTec Pro 1 and the Unihertz Titan I've had since, where the end user experience is at best half arsed.

[2] Unfortunately you can't enable a non swiping interface on Android and have all apps work with virtual/physical keyboards, extremely irritating.

[3] It works but is utterly half arsed. Considering the entire purpose of the product is to be a keyboard Clicks don't give a flying fuck for things such as keyboard customisation, and when you bring this up their attitude is 'it's only designed for the US market'. Talk about myopic. Sadly it appears to be the only real viable option for a portrait Android phone with a keyboard[4]

[4] I have tried landscape and square format Android keyboard phones. It is a lost cause, I have tried for *years*. If you want Android software to work, you need a portrait phone.

[Liam Proven]

Re: Needs wireless charging, too expensive

> I've had multiple phones die due to the charging port failing

I think it's you. I have had about two dozen smartphones now. I was an early adopter, moving across from Psion in the late 1990s, and I started on early Symbian devices. In approaching 30 years, I have never _ever_ had a single charging port failure.

I will say that I hated Apple Lightning cables: they were a consumable item and I had to replace them on about a monthly basis. Most fragile connector ever, worse than wide SCSI 2, but then, Apple clearly wanted to protect the device by making a sacrificial cable, and that is not a bad idea -- but IMHO they went too far.

> Phones *need* wireless charging to maintain longevity.

Absolutely not. Wireless in general is a flaky unreliable PITA and I avoid it. My review HTC used a later version of the same (non-replaceable, non-upgradable) wireless charging standard built into my car's dashboard and it didn't work.

Avoid wireless. Networking only where essential and if you have the choice _use a cable_. And you, Mr Binky, need to learn to plug things in with more care and attention.

> found I absolutely hate swipe based interfaces

Well, I couldn't disagree more but this is a value judgement. De gustibus non est disputandum.

For capacitative touchscreens, swiping is much easier than tapping. I can swipe type blind on my phones and get entire sentences correct without even looking at the phone. But I think you may have an issue with your coordination if you break so many phones.

I will say, though, that I'd prefer a physical hardware keyboard.

> GrapheneOS [...] the first third party ROM that has been hassle free.

Well, see my earlier comments about working with them.

> Blackberry actually thought about what an end user wanted to do

Agreed.

[thedarkstar]

Re: Needs wireless charging, too expensive

I really would love to know what he is doing with these phones to break the charging ports on them.

I've had several iPhones since the 4 (keep the booing down) and various Android phones too, mainly as work devices, and never had any charging ports fail.

In fact only device I've had recently with a charging port failure is an iPad Pro 3rd-Gen where its a known fault. Still charges using USB-A to USB-C cable, slowly, but USB-C to USB-C, nada

[jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid]

Re: Needs wireless charging, too expensive

"I have never _ever_ had a single charging port failure."

I've had one, a USB C socket would only work if the plug was inserted and wedged with something to apply just the right amount of pressure at just the right angle. Admittedly, this is my only example.

I've had a few start to fail but remedied with a good clean out. Otherwise, I agree, charging ports do seem very reliable considering the exposure to muck and fluff they experience.

[BinkyTheMagicPaperclip]

Re: Needs wireless charging, too expensive

Maybe I've just been unlucky - with the FXTec Pro 1 it's a known issue. The port is on a separate power board, but as they have no spares that's not very useful! With the Unihertz Titan I don't think there's a systemic issue, but after a few years the port is becoming unreliable. I'd rather not run the risk[1]

I bought a Anker 10W charger to charge the Pixel. It's not particularly fast, but is reliable and doesn't heat the phone much. The only issues are that the phone needs to be laid sideways, and the portion of the case that supports wireless charging isn't huge. You need to double check it isn't rapidly charging and then not charging as that can drain the battery, but provided it's in the correct place it's pretty convenient.

No disagreement my preference for non swiping is certainly personal, but as Sailfish is so swipe oriented it's a barrier to me personally using it. Also, you *should* be able to drive an Android phone via physical keyboard shortcuts, but Clicks didn't spend even a couple of seconds thinking of that when designing their case, a third party remapper may be needed to take full advantage.

I can't comment on the GrapheneOS team, it is a pity if they don't play nicely with others. All I can say is that I've had issues with all other third party ROMs I've used, or boutique phones rebooting at inopportune times because of Android or changing cells/wireless state, and that so far the only people who appear to have got it right are the large companies.

That's not to say I particularly love Google. I resent the high price, the non swappable battery, the lack of a headphone jack, the overpriced flash storage that can't be expanded by SD card, and shoehorning AI into their default OS install. However Pixel/Clicks/GrapheneOS is still an improvement over the other keyboard phones I have tried, and my choices are minimal.

[1] This does of course assume that the phone does wireless charging properly, which the Unihertz Titan does not. It's well known for causing battery damage if you charge wirelessly as it has no limiter. Don't touch Unihertz with a bargepole, they are a bunch of GPL violating chancers who don't give a stuff once they have your money.

[Mockup1974]

It's nice to see GOOD hardware for something not running Android or iOS. Much better than the PinePhone or Librem 5, for example.

But the problems I see are:

1. SailfishOS is not open source. In terms of FSF approval, something like GrapheneOS or LineageOS would be preferable, despite being fully dependent on Google.

2. SailfishOS is not Linux-compatible. Yes, it uses many more GNU/Linux components than Android (which only uses the kernel essentially), but it still can't run desktop Linux apps, nor apps for other mobile Linux distributions, nor can they run SailfishOS apps. Apparently Linux CLI apps work on SailfishOS but it would be great if you could run e.g. Flatpak apps so that there is a synergy with the desktop.

3. The phone doesn't seem to be actually Linux-compatible, as SailfishOS requires Android drivers to work. That also means you can't switch out SailfishOS for another mobile Linux distro like Ubuntu Touch or PostmarketOS or Mobian.

The only actual appeal is that it's not an OS from Google or Apple. As a former BB10 user, that's still quite nice. But it's neither practical enough to use as a daily driver (due to the lack of native apps) nor is it free enough to attract Linux and FOSS enthusiasts.

[Liam Proven]

> SailfishOS is not Linux-compatible. Yes, it uses many more GNU/Linux components than Android (which only uses the kernel essentially), but it still can't run desktop Linux apps, nor apps for other mobile Linux distributions, nor can they run SailfishOS apps.

I think you needed to be more specific here: it's not compatible with Linux *GUI apps*. As you said: you can run CLI stuff (if you want, which I do not, ta v. much).

There are other phones if that's something you want, e.g. the FuriPhone, which is actually _good_ at this.

Small companies and small projects need to choose their battles and on this one I think Jolla has made a solid, valid choice.

It's much more relevant to run Android apps and it does that well.

[Osma]

I've been a Jolla user since the original Jolla phone. Currently on my 4th Sailfish device, the same Xperia 10 III that was tested.

In my experience, map software works fine on Sailfish OS, although getting a GPS fix might take a while if you normally keep the location services disabled, like I do. I would particularly recommend CoMaps, which is a community fork of Organic Maps; both are based on OpenStreetMap data. Geocaching sofware such as c:geo also works well.

However, for location services to work with most Android apps on Sailfish, you will first need to install microG, which is a de-googled reimplementation of Google Play Services. You need solutions like this to enable apps that rely on not just basic Android services but extra things that Google has added to the platform over the years.

[Liam Proven]

> However, for location services to work with most Android apps on Sailfish, you will first need to install microG

Just FWIW: I had microG installed. No help.

I gave it several minutes to get a fix. No joy. It seemed to be locked at 0º latitude, 0º longitude. I looked for settings about this but couldn't find any.

(Aside: the Settings app *really* needs a Search function.)

[Osma]

OK, sorry to hear that it didn't work for you.

If you still want to try, I would suggest installing some native Sailfish GPS app. I use an app called GPSinfo; it shows detailed information about GPS such as current location, direction, speed and altitude, number of satellites visible, time of last fix etc. If you get GPS working in native Sailfish apps, then the problem must be somewhere in the Android emulation layer; possibly a microG setting.

(I first accidentally posted this as a reply to the wrong message; sorry about that)

[Professor_Iron]

The question begs for itself...but who is contributing to the Sailfish OS development? For a while the Russian government was Jolla's biggest customer. Jolla pulled out of Russia - all fair and square, but the Russians forked Sailfish under their own Aurora OS project. On one hand it looks like a state propaganda mobile operating system, but on the other they seem to be adding new functions that eventually also seem to pop up in the original Sailfish OS...you know what I mean?

Personally I'm not paranoid of Russian code and I also trust the Jolla guys wouldn't just copy-paste a suspicious code that is designed to track citizens. I hate that politics is so deeply embedded in software nowadays, but this needs to be cleared up in order for them to succeed.

[jpennycook]

I thought they got some money from German car companies to develop the Android app support, but this couldn't happen until they had cut ties with Russia. But I could be wrong.

They've also got a mysterious box that apparently does "agentic" "AI", so hopefully some Americans have thrown money at them.

[Floor1]

Yes I'll have one to add to the others

Yes I'll have one to add to the others. I have the 3 Jolla phones now, 2 Sony 1 C2. The problem with the C2 is that it is too large and has no fingerprint reader. This new phone does have a fingerprint reader.

I will say that the Jolla phones are worthwhile if you are stepping away from google, apple etc. It does mean some compromises, the biggest one is the lack of Bluetooth android emulation support. Audio is OK but you will be stuck if you want to use smartwatch connectivity or any other type of Bluetooth connection. I don't believe this is fixable as the stacks that handle bucktooth in Linux and android are very different.

Once microg and other android app stores are setup (fdroid, Aptoide, Aurora) most android apps are available.

I'm fine with not having and shitty banking apps on my phone, so not being able to pay with one is not an issue for me. If you do have a banking app on a phone leave it in side your house in the safe, lol.

The best thing I like about Sailfish is being in control of what android apps are running and being able to start/kill them quickly.

Imap4 email and calendar works OK with the default email client, but Outlook stuff does not, you are better using an android app for that work email.

If you want a less interrupted day I would recommend a Sailfish device.

[Zippy´s Sausage Factory]

I've had iphones for years but this just might tempt me away from the fruity walled kingdom.

[MarkTheMorose]

Cost

Why does the price go up, the more of them they sell?