back to article UK to Europe: The time to counter Russia's information war machine is now

The UK's foreign secretary is calling for closer collaboration with Europe to combat the growing threat of information warfare as hybrid attacks target countries on the continent. In a wide-ranging speech due later this afternoon, Yvette Cooper will remind senior diplomats and European dignitaries of the methods that "malign …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

    Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll, and now that Xwitter shows where an account comes from, and we find thousands of MAGA influencers are not even posting from the US, the EU should take this problem seriously. Propaganda has been baked into both the Russian & Chinese systems for a century, and they are good at posing as something they're not.

    https://www.npr.org/2024/09/05/nx-s1-5100829/russia-election-influencers-youtube

    https://www.theregister.com/2024/11/25/google_beijing_propaganda/

    https://www.theregister.com/2024/09/05/biden_cracks_down_on_putins/

    1. may_i Silver badge

      Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

      And you really think that the UK, EU and US don't use propaganda just as manipulatively?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

        Certainly not as effectively, nor on such a scale as Russia & China. There's a reason neither Russia nor China even gives lip service to the idea of a free & independent press. They both explicitly require their domestic press to tow the official government line, specifically because they fear their own populations, should they be exposed to independent investigative thought. For example, Russian Federal Law No. 32-FZ and Federal Law No. 31-FZ, enacted on March 4, 2022, criminalize the spread of information that deviates from the official government narrative of the conflict in Ukraine. The official term mandated by the government for the conflict is a "special military operation". Calling the military action a "war" or "invasion" is considered by Russian authorities to be "false information" and is punishable by large fines or imprisonment.

        Independent thought in Russia & China is forbidden.

        1. nobody who matters Silver badge

          Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

          Toe ;)

          1. m4r35n357 Silver badge

            Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

            Don't be a damp squid ;)

        2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

          Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

          The official term mandated by the government for the conflict is a "special military operation". Calling the military action a "war" or "invasion" is considered by Russian authorities to be "false information" and is punishable by large fines or imprisonment.

          That's because an SMO is what it is, legally and constitutionally in Russian law. They specify SMO, ATO and war, and the resources Russia can use in each situation. So there's 'misinformation' like Russian conscripts being used in meatwave attacks, yet conscripts shouldn't be used outside Russian borders, except when war has been declared.. Which no current party to the conflict has yet done, with the exception of Baerback once declaring Germany was at war with Russia, but that was quickly walked back.

          But 'invasion' should be 'full-scale military invasion', or your social credit score might be impacted. Which is also a propaganda/misinformation statement, because the initial invasion was only 2-300k troops, which was a show of power and only a small fraction of the forces Russia could have used, if it really wanted to do a 'full-scale' invasion. It currently has 800k+ troops in Ukraine, or former Ukrainian territory, so somehow went from 'full-scale' to.. even fuller scale?

          But we also interfere in other countries elections or democracies, eg Romania, Moldova or Georgia, to name but a few. We also use crude propaganda or misinformation to attack our enemies. Like the way Putin actually died years ago because we were told he sufferered from multiple terminal illnesses. Or in non-war propaganda and misinformation, banning any discussion of Wuhan lab leaks.

          So our 'leaders' are mostly using disinformation as an excuse to increase censorship and stifle debate. Yes, there is propaganda and misinformation, but it's been that way for centuries, and is how the great game gets played. Sure, AI and bots make it easier to spread, but the biggest problem (and solution) is empowering people to detect misinformation for themselves.. Which is a problem that requires education and developing people's critical thinking skills, which are sadly lacking in many. And being cynical, politicians might not want people questioning their supposed authority.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

            "legally and constitutionally in Russian law"

            Just because Russia has legally and constitutionally codified absurd nonsense, it still doesn't mean it's not absurd nonsense.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

            Congrats. You are not sane !

          3. Casca Silver badge

            Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

            And the russian mouth piece has spoken...

      2. Filippo Silver badge

        Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

        Well, yes. Western countries aren't saints, but there are obvious differences. For example, you can post what you just posted, and the worst reprisal you're going to get is downvotes. Try denouncing manipulations in Russia or China, I believe the difference will become very obvious, very quickly.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

          For example, you can post what you just posted, and the worst reprisal you're going to get is downvotes.

          You're either not paying attention or being deliberately disingenuous. Which is it?

          Her story is one repeated almost hourly in the UK, where data suggests over 30 people a day are arrested for speech crimes, about 12,000 a year, under laws written well before the age of social media that make crimes of sending “grossly offensive” messages or sharing content of an “indecent, obscene or menacing character.”

          Social media continues to be flooded with videos of British cops banging on doors in the middle of the night and hauling parents off to jail—all over mean Facebook posts and agitated words on X.

          https://nypost.com/2025/08/19/world-news/uk-free-speech-struggle-30-arrests-a-day-censorship/

          1. Gary Stewart Silver badge

            Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

            "all over mean Facebook posts and agitated words on X."

            Yeah, I mean it's not like there have been any bad consequences like suicides, murders, attempted murders, assassinations, attempted assassinations, bombings, attempted bombings, assaults, swatting, stalkings ..., all on the rise because of these kinds of posts and their ability to infest the internet with their hate at relativistic speeds. Or to put it another way, free speech ends with your fist at the tip of my nose. And yes I do know that even this can not by nature be absolute but it also can not be ignored.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

              Yeah, I mean it's not like there have been any bad consequences like suicides, murders, attempted murders, assassinations, attempted assassinations, bombings, attempted bombings, assaults, swatting, stalkings ..., all on the rise because of these kinds of posts and their ability to infest the internet with their hate at relativistic speeds.

              You'll have an extremely hard time proving that a social media post has been responsible for any of the crimes you've mentioned, however, where you can, then said person(s) can be pursued and prosecuted.

              On the other hand, shutting down freedom of speech on the off chance that someone may be motivated to commit a crime is completely unacceptable in a free society. For a start, how do you even define acceptable versus unacceptable speech? Even the phrase "hate speech" is subjective and you'll find that there is no accepted definition, despite many authorities readily wielding the term.

              Be careful what you wish for when granting the government powers to control speech. After all, there's no guaranteeing you yourself won't fall foul as such laws evolve under future administrations.

              1. Gary Stewart Silver badge

                Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

                Actually many have been directly connected to such posts. Enough that scanning posts for such comments has become routine.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

                  Actually many have been directly connected to such posts. Enough that scanning posts for such comments has become routine.

                  Sigh. You're mistaking the recent penchant for the police to go on social media fishing expeditions to correct wrongthink with proving that a given post has lead to a crime.

        2. Gary Stewart Silver badge

          Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

          "Try denouncing manipulations in Russia or China,"

          or the United States when you are a foreigner. Trump has been spewing the same kind of retribution rhetoric for even the slightest complaint about him or his regime calling people and the press traitors and enemies of the people for years now. So far the constitution has held, at least for "true" citizens of the US, but then again he has also called for their citizenship to be revoked. I do believe that this is well beyond anything that a large majority of the population would support although I am extremely concerned about the havoc several tens of millions of MAGAs could cause as Trump continues his over the cliff plummet into authoritarian madness.

    2. Jedit Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

      Agreed, although you didn't take it to the logical conclusion that Trump is a Russian asset. Whether or not he knows it; we know that Trump listens to suggestions from anyone willing to shower him with gifts and approving words. Putin could just be exploiting Trump's narcissism, greed and natural stupidity rather than Trump intentionally betraying his country for money.

      1. ebyrob

        Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

        > Trump's narcissism, greed and natural stupidity

        When did Donald J. Trump get a monopoly on these? Am I missing something here?

        1. nobody who matters Silver badge

          Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

          I don't think anyone suggested he had a monopoly? He certainly gives the appearance of having more than his fair share on occasions though.

        2. Gary Stewart Silver badge

          Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

          "Am I missing something here?"

          Other than he is the president of the United States and wields enormous power and influence that no other person on Earth has with the Supine Court twisting itself into shapes that no one has ever seen before to give him more, unconstitutionally I might add, no.

        3. Casca Silver badge

          Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

          Have you watched trump recieving the fifa "peace" price? Do that and you get the difference

          .

          1. Gary Stewart Silver badge

            Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

            Yes, what a total fucking embarrassing show that was for the US and FIFA. Note to FIFA (OK and the US), you need a new leader!

      2. Gary Stewart Silver badge

        Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

        Actually I believe that Trump is a full blown Russian ass. One that Putin just loves in more ways than one. I'm expecting Putin's butt baby to pop out any minute now. A million thanks to South Park for the unending steam of reality inspired rolling on the floor laughs this season.

        1. MrMerrymaker

          Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

          Two consistent downvoters are MAGA losers

          1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

            Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

            Two consistent downvoters are MAGA losers

            MAGA won, Harris lost, get over it. But don't you think insightful (and content-free) comments like "I'm expecting Putin's butt baby to pop out any minute now deserve a down vote? I'm sure I'll attract a lot more than two votes though because hate is all the TDS-afflicted know..

            1. Casca Silver badge

              Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

              Ah yes, everything is TDS for you. But then again the only thing you know is what kreml tells you

            2. Gary Stewart Silver badge

              Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

              Nothing to do with the election, totally has to do with the current cluster fuck MAGA has wrought on the US. TDS? Man I wish I had an argument that good!

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

                @Gary Stewart

                "Nothing to do with the election, totally has to do with the current cluster fuck MAGA has wrought on the US. TDS? Man I wish I had an argument that good!"

                Had he not followed Bidens presidency maybe it would look bad? And of course the first term following Obama's, to which Obama tried to claim credit for Trumps economy even.

                How do people post this not thinking of the previous president?

                As for the title of this thread, the Russia hoax was exposed as a democrat fabrication. You might look for Russians but discover democrats.

            3. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

              TDS is so passé. According to the Bubba emails it's all about the TSD now.

          2. Gary Stewart Silver badge

            Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

            Yeah, I get them all the time and consider it to be a badge of honor.

    3. drankinatty Bronze badge

      Re: Given how many MAGA "influencers" turned out to be on the Russian payroll

      You forgot at least one - the orange man impersonating a president is likely on the list along with his crypto co-conspirator Witkoff and his son-in-law with the father the orange man pardoned. They need to be continually reminded of the Budapest Memorandum and its control over how the war in Ukraine should be resolved.

  2. IGotOut Silver badge

    And....

    Cue Beast , Voice of "Truth" and others in....3....2....1...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: And....

      Real patriots don't challenge what they are told to say. You are as bad as those you accuse.

      1. Gary Stewart Silver badge

        Re: And....

        OMG, just OMG! Even when they are clearly, objectively, undeniably wrong? Or does 2 + 2 really equal 5?

      2. Casca Silver badge

        Re: And....

        Good little AC. Post without it if we should care.

    2. VoiceOfTruth Silver badge

      Re: And....

      You have a lack of critical thinking. That is your problem not mine.

      1. Gary Stewart Silver badge

        Re: And....

        "critical thinking"

        in MAGA minds doesn't exist, the evidence is very clear.

        1. MrMerrymaker

          Re: And....

          Interesting neither of the downvoters had the intelligence to tell you why you are "wrong"

          1. Casca Silver badge

            Re: And....

            Its the usual three, four maga/russian supporters.

            1. Gary Stewart Silver badge

              Re: And....

              Yep. They love their Vlad the Invader and his sidekick Moronodon I.

  3. This post has been deleted by its author

  4. ComicalEngineer Silver badge

    Information Wars

    Strictly Dis-information wars, or using an older term propaganda wars have been going on for many years.

    The sheer weight of social media posts by bots and government sponsored dis-informants is absolutely staggering.

    When a government sponsors mass blitzes of the social media it becomes difficult to tell truth from lies and influences the attitudes of less well informed or gullible people.

    Information Wars: How We Lost the Global Battle Against Disinformation and What We Can Do About It

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Information-Wars-Global-Against-Disinformation/dp/1611856388

  5. m4r35n357 Silver badge

    Erm . . .

    The "right time" was at least twenty years ago. WTF are our "secret services" for?

  6. alain williams Silver badge

    It is not only Russia

    USA covered above but Israel has it down to a fine art called Hasbara which tries to convince the world that the Palestinians should be blamed for the war whereas the opposite is true going back 1948. There is a long history.

    Some of the worst happens inside Israel.

  7. codejunky Silver badge

    Hmm

    I wonder if anyone suggested being more honest and actually listening to your populations? I doubt it. I expect the suggestions will be to become more restrictive.

    1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

      Re: Hmm

      I wonder if anyone suggested being more honest and actually listening to your populations?

      That's crazy talk. M&MS were in London recently for some group therapy. Macron's around 10% approval in French opinion polls, Merz just dropped to 25%, or the lowest of any German Chancellor ever. And then there's Starmer, possibly also the most unpopular PM in history. But we''ve given them the power, and they're not afraid to abuse it.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Hmm

      Who's populations? When X started showing the location of leading MAGA posters it turned out they weren't part of the US population but just posters in the third world who were engagement farming and troll farms in "Eastern Europe (non-EU)" - Belarus and Russia. MAGA shrank to half its size overnight.

      1. codejunky Silver badge

        Re: Hmm

        @AC

        "Who's populations?"

        It is interesting I can make a general point applicable to most politicians and you had to focus on just one little political group. Is MAGA in the room with you right now?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Hmm

          codejunky> Is MAGA in the room with you right now?

          Well, you were here.

          #Trump #Epstein

          1. codejunky Silver badge

            Re: Hmm

            @AC

            "codejunky> Is MAGA in the room with you right now?

            Well, you were here."

            Problem identified. Nurse get his medication. I am not in the room with you. The trouble is in your mind.

            1. Casca Silver badge

              Re: Hmm

              sadly you are in this forum with your posts...

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Hmm

              @codejunky

              Good 'news' for you.

              Maybe you'll be "offered residency" too!

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: Hmm

                @AC

                "Maybe you'll be "offered residency" too!"

                I am continually amused how this irks you. Didnt this start because some were complaining that after Brexit it was somehow hard to get residency in EU countries and you balled your eyes out because I (a brexit supporter) could have had it if I wished to stay over there? You must really have the sads to still be following me crying about it. Have you talked about your wittle feewings with a professional yet? Maybe they can help?

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Hmm

                  Which country was this?

                2. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Hmm

                  complaining that after Brexit it was somehow hard to get residency in EU countries

                  Were you not in fact working post-Brexit in <insert EU country> without declaring it nor obtaining the correct authorisation to be there? Naughty. Illegal migration is still a hot topic in many countries. Should be clamped down on. What do you think?

                  1. codejunky Silver badge

                    Re: Hmm

                    @AC

                    "Were you not in fact working post-Brexit in <insert EU country> without declaring it nor obtaining the correct authorisation to be there?"

                    No which is why your floundering is funny.

                    "Naughty. Illegal migration is still a hot topic in many countries. Should be clamped down on. What do you think?"

                    Damn right.

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: Hmm

                      Tell us how you came to enter said country. You agree that you can't just turn up in a country and set up shop, so which permissions did you obtain?

                      Otherwise it just appears you are no better than all the other illegal immigrants we hear people (such as yourself) rail against. Hmm?

                      1. codejunky Silver badge

                        Re: Hmm

                        @AC

                        "Tell us how you came to enter said country. You agree that you can't just turn up in a country and set up shop, so which permissions did you obtain?"

                        Legally you dumbass. Registered with the local authorities and when I needed it registered and obtained the temporary residence permit/IDand received the mailed invitation to go to the administrative offices to remain after brexit. I didnt bother with that last one as I returned to the UK.

                        "Otherwise it just appears you are no better than all the other illegal immigrants we hear people (such as yourself) rail against. Hmm?"

                        If you have started to believe your fantasy that I was there illegally that is even funnier. You do realise you started making that crap up when you ran out of anything valid to say in a previous discussion. While I still find it funny how irked you are by the facts I am starting to wonder if you have some sort of issues that make you believe your own fantasies. If you do have such a condition I am sorry but I recommend you dont keep posting your delusions. If you dont have such a condition I will continue to laugh guilt free.

                        1. Anonymous Coward
                          Anonymous Coward

                          Re: Hmm

                          received the mailed invitation to go to the administrative offices to remain after brexit

                          But you said said you arrived post-Brexit. This story makes no sense to those who actually did have to jump through the post-brexit hoops to apply for residency and work permits. No one is "offered" residency. Just name this fantasy country of yours.

                          (BTW if it turns out to be Ireland, you're going to be a laughing stock for trying to pull the wool over people's eyes re post-brexit EU residency )

                          1. codejunky Silver badge

                            Re: Hmm

                            @AC

                            "But you said said you arrived post-Brexit."

                            Arrived where? In the EU? Where did I say that? I have been clear that I was in the EU country already. I went over during the very long transition period. So when remainers complained how difficult it was to have gone to stay in the EU after the brexit vote I was quite easily a demonstration that it wasnt so hard and they could have done so. whatever fantasy scenario you have concocted in your head is not factual. I honestly just assumed you were trolling previously but now I am concerned you actually believe the nonsense you come out with.

                            "(BTW if it turns out to be Ireland, you're going to be a laughing stock for trying to pull the wool over people's eyes re post-brexit EU residency )"

                            No not Ireland. Continental Europe.

                            1. Anonymous Coward
                              Anonymous Coward

                              Re: Hmm

                              Oh, I see! So you just slipped in there before the 2020 cut-off. Not after your much-loved brexit at all!

                              Migrating to an EU country to take advantage of freedom-of-movement. After voting to remove it for the next generations? Raging hypocrisy at it's absolute finest. Well done.

                              Which country was this again ... ?

                              1. codejunky Silver badge

                                Re: Hmm

                                @AC

                                "Oh, I see! So you just slipped in there before the 2020 cut-off. Not after your much-loved brexit at all!"

                                That does explain why your replies never seemed to match up to my comments. These conversations came about from people insisting they couldnt move to the EU because we had voted leave yet of course were wrong. They could have done but didnt.

                                "Migrating to an EU country to take advantage of freedom-of-movement. After voting to remove it for the next generations? Raging hypocrisy at it's absolute finest. Well done."

                                I see you are still butt hurt. Remainers could have moved to their glorious promised land but didnt. I worked within the rules as they were. Not my fault we were in the EU.

                                "Which country was this again ... ?"

                                Coward doesnt want his own ramblings associated with his account which uses a pseudo-name thinks I am going to tell them personally identifying information why?

                                1. Anonymous Coward
                                  Anonymous Coward

                                  Re: Hmm

                                  You sound bitter. Did you get thrown out for not declaring a means of support? As is a requirement in most EU countries. Many Brit immigrants have been sent back to where they came from for this kind of infraction.

                                  1. codejunky Silver badge

                                    Re: Hmm

                                    @AC

                                    "You sound bitter. Did you get thrown out for not declaring a means of support?"

                                    Oh damn now you start on a new fantasy. For you- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKQMPTnrQ04

                                    1. Anonymous Coward
                                      Anonymous Coward

                                      Re: Hmm

                                      Is that a yes? Was it a Schengen country?

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Hmm

        It used to be possible to geolocate twitter users by metadata which indicated the datacenter the user was connected to, they stopped that when it became obvious that a huge number of political nudge, propaganda and campaign accounts were not at all what they seemed.

        It pains me to say it, but Elmo has done a good thing by enabling location again though I do wonder how long it took the bot farm owners to get round it or activate geo localised bot farms

  8. VoiceOfTruth Silver badge

    The usual bullshit

    We = good. Them = bad.

    Britain conducts an illegal invasion, fuelled by Blair's lies = OK. Britain's supposed enemy fights back = they are terrorists.

    It makes me laugh. France talks about conscription to fight Russia. A history lesson - France invaded Russia, not the other way round.

    Germany talks about rearming. A history lesson - Germany invaded Russia and murdered 20 million Russians.

    Russia has legitimate fears of the so-called peaceful West. Cooper is just the latest in a long line of idiots who do their best to exacerbate them.

    So called fighting propaganda will equate to an avalanche of new propaganda to lead us toward war. I would start by conscripting Yvette Cooper. She wants a war with Russia, let her lead from the front.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The usual bullshit

      There's an easy-to-find list of invasions led or supported by the Russian Federation. The history lesson says that from 1991 to now there have been 7 victories, 1 armistice, 2 defeats, and there are 4 ongoing wars. It is worth noting that when Russia stopped with Chechnya they started with Georgia. When they stopped with Georgia they started with the North Caucasus. When they stopped with North Caucasus they started with Ukraine and Syria. It's almost like Russia doesn't know any way of life that doesn't involve war.

      1. beast666 Silver badge

        Re: The usual bullshit

        Now do the same with the US and NATO.

        1. Casca Silver badge

          Re: The usual bullshit

          You do it then. Just look for the normal russian/maga morons. They usually post a list at the drop of a hat.

      2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

        Re: The usual bullshit

        There's an easy-to-find list..

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change#1991%E2%80%93present_day

        But again propaganda. Problem with regime change operations now is they all tend to follow the same playbook, so are much easier to spot. Or there's propaganda like claiming "they started with Georgia" when the EU's own report into that one said Georgia started it. Or there's Syria, another regime change job using AQ & ISIS as useful idiots where Russia didn't invade, but were invited in to help by Assad. We, of course helped ourselves to Syria's oil region.

        It's almost like Russia doesn't know any way of life that doesn't involve war.

        Maybe it's not Russia that's the problem? Next in the firing line seems to be Venezuala now that the US has gotten bored with Ukraine and is looking for new oil fields to conquer. But there's also small-scale & bad propaganda, eg-

        https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd6x3vv7y60o

        Over the radio, they ask two of their soldiers to break cover from a building to display a Ukrainian flag. They move quickly to avoid being spotted. The drone feed shows the moment they briefly wave their yellow and blue flag, before quickly returning to cover.

        Ah, that sure proves Ukraine is still in control and exposes that Russian misinformation. Except anyone who's been following the conflict knows that Russia achieved operational encirclement a couple of weeks ago, and now has complete encirclement of the Pokrovsk cauldron/pocket. But flag waving is one of the strange aspects of this conflict, with drones dropping flags to 'capture' buildings, and then other drones attacking those flags. Or Ukraine recently provided more 'proof' by using AI to change Russian soldiers with a flag to Ukrainian.. Which was quickly fact-checked and the SBU claim withdrawn.

        Which is the real problem with propaganda. Done badly, it just erodes trust and credibility. A better story would be why Ukraine ordered their soldiers to stand their ground, rather than allowing them to retreat and saving them.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: The usual bullshit

          A better story would be why Ukraine ordered their soldiers to stand their ground, rather than allowing them to retreat and saving them.

          Spoken by someone who does not understand that people are not mindless automatons under authoritarian control. It's because they're defending their country against an invader which wants to turn their society into the same godforsaken hellish broken place that Russia is. A Potemkin democracy where opposition leaders regularly die run by an old psychopath who has delusions of empire. If everywhere Russia touched was improved then there might even be a good side to the invasion, but everything Russia touches turns to shit. The only country in the world where the invading force steals toilet bowls and washing machines.

          1. Casca Silver badge

            Re: The usual bullshit

            Its JE. He loves his russian macho vatniks. Russian cant make anything bad according to him.

          2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

            Re: The usual bullshit

            Spoken by someone who does not understand that people are not mindless automatons under authoritarian control.

            Spoken by someone who doesn't really address my point, and instead demostrates why our 'leaders' are so desperate to expand their authoritarian control and create mindless simpletons who simply believe everything they're told. Or as Cooper puts it in the article-

            In a wide-ranging speech due later this afternoon, Yvette Cooper will remind senior diplomats and European dignitaries of the methods that "malign foreign states" are using to undermine trust in domestic powers.

            The easiest way for trust in domestic powers to be undermined is when they lie, act like idiots or act directly against their own citzen's interests.. Which is why trust in politicians is at an all-time low. And being authoritarian, the domesitic powers seem to think the best way to win back trust is to punish dissent, or censorship.

            It's because they're defending their country against an invader which wants to turn their society into the same godforsaken hellish broken place that Russia..

            .. Isnt? But again you haven't really addressed my point, instead demonstrating the power of propaganda and misinformation. So our 'leaders' are currently plotting to give another $100bn+ to defence companies to keep the conflict in Ukraine going for maybe another 18 months. Which isn't likely to change anything because Ukraine doesn't need weapons, it needs soldiers. Four years on, Ukraine's run out of volunteers and relying on conscripts snatched off the streets. Meanwhile, Ukraine's 'Monaco Battalions' and those fortunate enough to have escaped are sitting this one out. There are also a lot of Ukrainians defending their country, except on the side of DPR & LPR, because at the core, this is still the civil war that started in 2014.

            So given this is a 'war' of attrition rather than territory, it would be sensible to conserve forces, because the UAF is running out of bodies willing and able to fight. Not apparently telling Pokrovsk forces to fall sideways to Myrnohrad, which is also now encircled and can't be supplied. Sirsky may be gambling that if they wait till the last minute and surrender, they might get some back in a prisoner exchange, but Ukraine doesn't have many prisoners to exchange, and Russia may decide to let PoWs sit the conflict out until it ends.

            But you're probably also a victim of more propaganda, thinking Russia is a 'godforsaken hellish broken place'.. This is what you've been told, but you can find plenty of videos showing tourists around cities like Moscow, showing clean, tidy streets and plenty of food in the shops. They certainly look cleaner than most European or US cities. You were told Russia's economy is 'in tatters', but reality seems to show otherwise.

            The only country in the world where the invading force steals toilet bowls and washing machines.

            Uh huh. Which do you think undermines trust in domestic powers more? Corruption invesigations finding bundles of cash and gold toilets, or being told that Russia was out of missile components, and so resorting to recycling washing machines?

        2. Casca Silver badge

          Re: The usual bullshit

          Yea, russia is never a problem for you is it? But then again you really like supporting "strong" leaders like every brain dead right wing "person"

      3. Ken G Silver badge

        Re: The usual bullshit

        They know that the EU and NATO do not accept members with ongoing conflicts on their territory. Ongoing war suits their aim of holding their neighbours close.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The usual bullshit

        Georgia is often held up as an example of naked, unprovoked Russian aggression, but that's just revisionism.

        An independent report blamed Georgia on Wednesday for starting last year's five-day war with Russia, but said Moscow's military response went beyond reasonable limits and violated international law.

        The report commissioned by the European Union said both sides had broken international humanitarian laws and found evidence of ethnic cleansing against ethnic Georgians during Russia's intervention in the rebel province of South Ossetia.

        Each side said the report backed up its interpretation of the war. But the findings were particularly critical of U.S. ally Georgia's conduct under President Mikheil Saakashvili and are likely to further damage his political standing.

        They could also deepen Western concerns about his leadership and the stability of the former Soviet republic which have set back its hopes of joining NATO and the EU and shaken confidence in oil and gas routes running through the South Caucasus.

        "In the Mission's view, it was Georgia which triggered off the war when it attacked Tskhinvali (in South Ossetia) with heavy artillery on the night of 7 to 8 August 2008," said Swiss diplomat Heidi Tagliavini, who led the investigation.

        https://www.reuters.com/article/world/georgia-started-war-with-russia-eu-backed-report-idUSTRE58T4MO/

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: The usual bullshit

          In June 1992, the Chairman of the Russian Supreme Soviet, Ruslan Khasbulatov, made a statement in which he described the Georgian actions in South Ossetia as genocide which could force Russia to consider the South Ossetians authorities' request to join the Russian Federation. Shortly afterwards it was reported that heavy weaponry with Russian identification marks was used against the Georgians.

          1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

            Re: The usual bullshit

            Shortly afterwards it was reported that heavy weaponry with Russian identification marks was used against the Georgians.

            Ohnoes! Presumably on Putins orders? But citation needed. But you're referring to the first conflict, not the subsequent Ukraine dry-run. I'm also not sure what your point is-

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia_war_(1991%E2%80%931992)

            On 11 December 1990, Zviad Gamsakhurdia's government declared the South Ossetian election illegitimate and abolished South Ossetia's political status altogether to counteract separatism. Gamsakhurdia said that Ossetians had no right to declare independence on Georgian territory.

            Which echoed Kiev's decision to strip Crimea of autonomy and break the terms of the Friendship agreement between Ukraine and Russia following the collapse of the Soviet Union. So S.Ossetia wanted to join the Russian Federation, Georgia disputed it because it claimed S.Ossetia, and a civil war started. But two former Soviet states used Soviet weaponry. This.. is evidence of.. what, exactly?

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: The usual bullshit

              OK so the Russians invaded Georgia in 1990 but the Georgians started it in 2005?

              And Russian marked Soviet weaponry is evidence of Russian military involvement.

              1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                Re: The usual bullshit

                OK so the Russians invaded Georgia in 1990 but the Georgians started it in 2005?

                Nope. No evidence of Russia starting the conflict in 1990, that was Georgia again.

                And Russian marked Soviet weaponry is evidence of Russian military involvement.

                Nope. Georgia also used Russian marked Soviet weaponry as well. Ukraine has been using the same against its people since 2014, so isn't evidence of Russians attacking themselves. PIRA used English marked American weaponry in N.Ireland, but that isn't evidence of US military involvement either, at least not officially.

    2. Ken G Silver badge

      Re: The usual bullshit

      Not being US or British, I see all attacks on civilian populations and all genocides as bad and worthy of opposition.

      I don't see how someone can support Israel and oppose Russia when both are doing similar things.

      I don't see how we can blame Ukrainians fighting back and I don't see how other Europeans can do anything but rearm because we (EU contries) will be next.

      Both Putin and Trump want to break up the EU for (perhaps) different reasons. If we want to preserve the European Project then we have to actively defend it.

      I personally don't think EU countries are doing all they can to combat hostile countries and hostile companies and need to step up, even if that means doing "bad" things to them.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The usual bullshit

      What astonishes me is the usual bullshit narratives, which you identify, appear to work so successfully time and again, even on otherwise intelligent folk.

      It's as if they have a total blindspot to every single one of the long list of previous provably manufactured crises. Mind-boggling!

  9. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

    FFSWTF... Is that it? Another wholesale whinge and yet more restatings of the bleeding obvious.

    Whenever "In a wide-ranging speech due later this afternoon, Yvette Cooper will remind senior diplomats and European dignitaries of the methods that "malign foreign states" are using to undermine trust in domestic powers." is unfortunately really all that the UK, its Parliamentary government system and their attending intelligence services can offer, .... and any evidence to the contrary is too oft all too apparently missing and never to be made available .... it doesn't take one to be an Einstein to imagine the danger and damage that can be wrought by spooky forces at a distance without any valid fear of discovery or accountability both in competition with and/or laudably opposed to all manner of inevitably incriminating and reliably unfolding streams of self-defeating information/misinformation/disinformation.

  10. CountCadaver Silver badge

    the time to do something was

    10+ years ago..... But politicians think they know best and many still talk of "computer wizzkids" and think computers can't do any real harm.

    So until it threatens them they just look the other way and revel in the numerous "good days to bury bad news"

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Having left the EU in a hissy fit

    The UK really doesn't get to dictate much.

    If it was that worried. it should have stayed, rather than electing 2 successive goverments that went out of their way to insult us.

    1. MrMerrymaker

      Re: Having left the EU in a hissy fit

      The Tories were worse.

      One word: lettuce

      1. Ken G Silver badge

        Re: Having left the EU in a hissy fit

        and your next government, will they be better?

        semi-serious question because there is no point in the EU engaging with your current one if you're throwing all the toys out of the pram in 3(?) years. Lining up 27 countries on anything isn't quick.

        1. seven of five Silver badge

          Re: Having left the EU in a hissy fit

          Especially with "members" like Orban

  12. Tron Silver badge

    There is no trust or faith in our governments to lose.

    Protecting intranet and infrastructure is easy. Ensure it has no connection to the public internet. Dump the AI, SaaS and Cloud BS and operate securely instead, designing out vulnerabilities. This is not rocket science. If any members of the government were even vaguely competent, they could sort it.

    There is nothing stopping the West from flooding Russian social media with misinformation bar their lack of talent. Instead they will just use it as another excuse to censor our net.

    Not sure how anyone can undermine trust in the UK government. I had zero trust in the Tories, have no trust in Labour and will have no trust in Reform. No Russian propaganda required. Their incompetence, deceit and hypocrisy is enough.

    The West could have disposed of Putin's regime in less than a year for a few million if they had wanted to. They are happier to play geopolitical games, see people die as cannon fodder and use Cold War 2 politics to take back control of their countries from producers and consumers by malign means.

  13. Goodwin Sands

    And the ELEPHANT in the room is ..

    Who amongst us here, are, you know, not (cough) genuine?

    Cos there's certainly enough radical & subversive things that get said on this here forum to make one wonder.

    While I can easily think of a few dozen commentards that more than hint at being pinko propagandists, what about the stooges that are bound to have been set amongst us by our own 77th Brigade - you know the British army's crack unit that specialises in monitoring our social media posts (hi guys!) and influencing our behaviour?

    Could perhaps amanfromMars be one of them!

    1. Jeff Smith

      Re: And the ELEPHANT in the room is ..

      This point is much under-discussed. We need more public education around the fundamental realities of user generated content online, such as...

      The shoutiest opinions always gain the most traction:

      Platforms are designed to push engagement. Emotive content gets more clicks so it floats up, skewing perceptions of wider public opinion (i.e. most people would likely have no strong feelings on the matter).

      You can always be proved right:

      If you don't know how to question your own assumptions then you'll find an endless supply of people willing to confirm your beliefs, which in turn makes you more easily led (and misled).

      You have no idea of the context in which a person is writing:

      All you see is text, you're starved of all the other communication cues that humanity has developed over tens of thousands of years. You can't read tone of voice, accent, facial expression, appearance, location, environment etc etc. It's a terrible way to try and understand other people.

      Most importantly - You have no idea if the person writing is who they claim to be, or if they're even a real person:

      They could very easily be a bot designed to take advantage of the points above to shape your opinion. You have almost certainly interacted with a bot online before without realising it. NLP and LLMs have turbo charged this.

      The only logical conclusion is that there is little value in reading any of this stuff let alone taking any of it at all seriously. And there never will be again.

      The whole problem is easily solved - everybody should get off of social media. To use social media is to open your brain to a torrent of emotive nonsense, and it can completely twist your world view causing irrational behaviour.

      Consider that the most powerful man and the richest man in the world are both heavy social media users who are entirely isolated from normal day to day life - look at how they behave.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: And the ELEPHANT in the room is ..

        >All you see is text, you're starved of all the other communication cues

        Not completely starved: we *still* have punctuation!!!

        >The whole problem is easily solved - everybody should get off of social media

        Noooooooooah! That would make so many people unhappy.

        How much worse is interacting on modern day social media than what folk used to do before social media came along? Wives would spend hours gossiping on the phone & husbands would disappear off down the pub. At least with social media folks stay home, stay sober, save money, and husbands & wives get to send more time together. What's not to like!

        So anyway, are you the same Jeff Smith that rummaged through Rob Witty's filing cabinet c1983 and produced that poisonous publication Jeff's Little Cookbook? If so then I'm delighted to know you're still alive!

    2. This post has been deleted by its author

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: And the ELEPHANT in the room is ..

      “ pinko propagandists “

      And what is that supposed to mean ?

      Does it say more about you than the people you think you are referring to ?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: And the ELEPHANT in the room is ..

        >And what is that supposed to mean ?

        Well, to help YOU, I asked grok

        Long definition:

        A "pinko propagandist" is a derogatory term, popular in mid-20th-century American anti-communist rhetoric, used to describe someone perceived as a leftist or socialist sympathizer ("pinko" implying "not quite red/communist") who actively spreads ideological propaganda to promote progressive, anti-capitalist, or pro-Soviet views while often denying being a full-blown communist.

        Short definition:

        "A left-wing ideologue who pushes socialist or communist-leaning propaganda while maintaining plausible deniability about being a true red."

        1. Ken G Silver badge

          Re: And the ELEPHANT in the room is ..

          I don't think there are any actual communists left. The problem is with Russian and American kleptocrats.

    4. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

      Re: And the ELEPHANT in the room is ..

      ...... Words Create, Command and Control and Destroy Worlds .... both realised and imaginary.

      And such Virtual Terrain Team Territory is certain to be of more than just passing simply complex vital and virile and viral national, international and internetional interest to any worthy and heavenly competent and diabolically successful 77th Brigade type unit because of the almightily powerful leading energy and future direction it so effortlessly supplies and maintains/mentors and monitors. ..... or does not supply and maintain/mentor and monitor as the case would be for false friends and genuine enemies alike.

      And that is your world of tomorrow being administered and delivered to you daily and 0daily today. I Kid U Not.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    MAGA is Russian

    Including Comrade Drumpf

  15. MrGreen

    More Fear

    More fear to scare the peasants.

    More excuses to send huge amounts of tax money to defence companies so the elites get richer.

    Keep the war machine running because it keeps the wealth transfer machine running.

    1. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

      Re: More Fear .... Less Security

      More fear to scare the peasants.

      More excuses to send huge amounts of tax money to defence companies so the elites get richer.

      Keep the war machine running because it keeps the wealth transfer machine running. ....... MrGreen

      Methinks, MrGreen, the fear of both the future and Future Futuristic AWEsome AIdevelopments and the rapid and spontaneous and Renegade Rogue AIgentic use/abuse/misuse of IT and AI which creates and/or invites resulting runaway inflation and unavoidable national and international bankruptcies/SWIFT base fiat currency collapses is the more likely unstoppable transfer of such a foolhardy running war machine.

      The global wealth available then will be held by both that and/or those enabled to ACTively exercise and secure to their exclusive mutually beneficial executive advantage the reward and bonus dividend created and delivered ‽ .

      And as one might not unreasonably expect and/or suspect, such is only available to a very select and extremely carefully chosen few of which/whom you are more than just likely to never be able to know and identify. .......... as one might imagine and realise is exactly what a MkUltra Top Secret Intelligence Service is ideally created for.

      1. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

        Re: More Fear .... Less Security ...... Greater Unknown Opportunities and/or Dangers

        And the pertinent impertinent question left hanging here for current answering that you might like to certainly ask of any of the myriad supposedly spookily engaged and publicly paid UKGBNI bodies is ....... do any enjoy and employ any of the novel skillsets of such as be the reward for Special Advanced IntelAIgent Researcher Services?

        And if they don’t, then why not whenever that is what they be facing if in opposition to radical and fundamental changes and what they be searching for if looking for help in what are extremely competitive and surprisingly lucrative future fields of perceptive and persuasive derivative endeavour.

        1. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

          And what's Santa Bringing You This Year? Anything Really Exclusive and Interesting ‽

          A Chinese Puzzle Box, perhaps ‽

          All Inquiries for Quantum Leap Communication of Noble Constructive and/or Novel Destructive Defence Product with Requisite Creative Enablement Instruction for Guaranteed Secure Continuity in Agile Fluid ProgramMING* Projects freely available and online from/for Sources Registering and Situations Publishing here too.

          * Mined IntelAIgent Network Gamesplay

  16. Naich

    Makes sense

    The UK has first-hand knowledge of what happens when a coordinated misinformation campaign with foreign power backers gets a hold - you get things like Brexit. However much money Russia ploughed into it, they certainly got a brilliant return on their investment.

    1. codejunky Silver badge

      Re: Makes sense

      @Naich

      "The UK has first-hand knowledge of what happens when a coordinated misinformation campaign with foreign power backers gets a hold - you get things like Brexit. However much money Russia ploughed into it, they certainly got a brilliant return on their investment."

      This is funny but in what way? The EU isnt the military force (proven by their now desperate spending) that would be NATO which is US backed. Economically the EU is sinking under the weight of its bureaucracy and politics. Our problem is the idiots wanting to desperately tie us to the EU even though we voted leave.

      Here is a fun thought- imagine if European NATO listened to Trump in his first term when he told them to fund their militaries properly and not be dependent on Russia!

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Makes sense

      brilliant return on their investment.

      What investments? Although proven to pay money to corrupt traitors in politics, the vast majority of Russian disinformation is spread by credulous fools mistakenly thinking they are superior edgelords.

      [vide supra]

      1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

        Re: Makes sense

        Although proven to pay money to corrupt traitors in politics,

        Congratulations. You win todays Golden Toilet award! Of course the money to pay for those came from Western Taxpayers..

        the vast majority of Russian disinformation is spread by credulous fools mistakenly thinking they are superior edgelords.

        Nope, it actually comes from Anonymous Cowards. It's a dastardly scheme by the evil Putin to demonstrate to the world that Westerners really are that stupid. Or it could be that people who post as AC aren't capable of making any decent arguments, only insults.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Makes sense

          Clearly you yourself are in this case, ipso facto, the proof.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Makes sense

      @Naich

      Evidence for Russia ploughing money into Brexit please otherwise you'll just get chalked down as yet another gullable fool endlessly repeating fabricated misinformation.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The EU/UK and Russia's information war machine…

    … is a bit like Netanyahu and Iran's nuclear bomb.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jcp8qarRxjg

  18. Omnipresent Silver badge

    It's too late.

    The new U.S. of R. oligarch class already told you they were going to attack the U.K. with money and influence. Brexit was a part of the plan. A house divided can not stand, and all your socials belong to us. Enjoy the chaos and insanity.

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