ICE-tracking app developer sues Trump admin after Apple spikes the software

Does the first amendment allow citizens to track law enforcement activity? After publishing an iOS app that shows where ICE agents have deployed, ICEBlock developer Joshua Aaron saw the Trump admin pressure Apple into pulling the software and threaten him with prosecution. Now he's fighting back. Aaron filed a lawsuit in …

[Excused Boots]

Now I don’t think for a second that Apple or Google really want to pull these apps; they are just 'playing safe’, safe in the knowledge that someone is going to start a 1st Amendment lawsuit - which does seem to have happened.

Absolutely this is going to end up with your Supreme Court;* so years might pass before it gets settled. Either it’s fine, but too late, or it isn’t fine, in which case you now know the limits of your first amendment!

* your, because I’m British, but I do understand how your system works, or doesn’t!

[Dan 55]

The phrase is "obeying in advance", but the tech companies paid for the new ballroom/bunker so they've already made their choice.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ironic that they're funding all that room for balls they clearly don't have.

[Jedit]

Well, Agent 47 needs somewhere to keep them after they've been given to him.

[Irongut]

Did you miss the gold plaque Tim Apple gave to his best bud Trumpy?

Or the millions Apple and Google donated towards the gaudiest ballroom ever built?

Apple and Google were more than happy to oblige their pals and pull these apps.

[Dinanziame]

And the Swiss gave Trump a a kilogram of gold to make him sign a tariffs deal. I'm not sure they would call him a pal, though...

[Groo The Wanderer - A Canuck]

I wish him luck and I agree with him, but Der Pumpkin Fuhrer clearly doesn't give a rat's fat patoot about anyone's "rights." Not those of clitizens based on the ICE arrest reports, and certainly not those of immigrants.

Heil Drumpf [/SARCASM]

[Someone Else]

But the Orange-utan's "rights", on the other hand...

[Fruit and Nutcase]

What about a "POTUS Tracker" - is that ok under the First Amendment? After all, does he not "work" for The People and the Country of the US of A? In which case, the employers would be within their rights to keep tabs on their employees (or so that is what the employers keep telling us). So, ordinary US Citizens should be able to keep tabs on the POTUS - current incumbent, one Donald Trump.

[Anonymous Coward]

POTUS Tracker

Does that mean that The Orange One could be treated like researchers do with orangutans in the wild: a tranquilizer dart to the rump and then put on the GPS collar while he’s down?

[Fruit and Nutcase]

Re: POTUS Tracker

What if some orangutans broke free from the National Zoo in Washington and ended up at the White House? Now there's a real risk of Trump getting a tranquilized dart in the rump whilst FWS operatives try to capture them. In the confusion, he could get corralled into a big cage alongside the other escapees and taken back to the zoo

[BasicReality]

Sites like backpage.com was shut down for promoting illegal activities, no one seemed to care. This is no different, they're helping people break the law by reporting on the activities of law enforcement. Shut them down. There is no first amendment right to this app.

[that one in the corner]

> people break the law by reporting on the activities of law enforcement

Are you saying you believe it is illegal in the US to report on any activity of law enforcement?

So newspapers, TV, bloggers etc etc, who report that police have raided a house, or been involved in a car chase, or stopped cars for no apparent reason, or solved a murder case, or failed to identify a body dragged from the river, or opened a new precinct house, or were shot at, or shot someone, or provided an honor guard to the President, or gave testimony in court, or been the subject of a court hearing, or clashed with rioters, or accompanied an entirely peaceful march through town, or sung "Galway Bay" - all those reporters have been and are still breaking the law?

If true, that would would make the evening news a lot shorter.

[martinusher]

In the US we're allows to report on the actions of law enforcement. Its one of the complaints people have about ICE. They're technically not law enforcement and in theory don't have police powers. That's why their MO is to go in 'hot and heavy', brandishing weapons, threatening people and arresting anyone who complains. Its a way of compensating for the fact that they don't really have this level of power, they're more like debt collectors who can apprehend specific named individuals but can't just corral an entire group 'just in case'.

This might sound strange to someone in the UK. But its how things work over here.

One of the goals of ICE is to normalize the arbitrary detention of individuals. (Note how ICE uses the term 'detention' -- they don't for the most part have arrest powers and if they did actually arrest someone they'd have to go through all this due process nonsense, the outcome being more often than not that a judge frees the person concerned due to lack of evidence of a crime or procedural irregularities.)(The strategy they use with aliens is to hold them in remote locations under abominable conditions until they sign a waiver permitting 'voluntary departure'.)

[Anonymous Coward]

What country are you from where debt collectors apprehend people? In the US, its not allowed to put up a spouse or child as collateral.

Did you leave out some words after 'detention of individuals', on purpose to meke them sound like victims? If you come to the US on a visa and overstay that visa, you aren't a victim. If you enter the US, but not officially through a port-of-entry, you aren't a victim.

[martinusher]

Its a good idea to keep eyes and ears open when dealing with the present Administration.

You may have overlooked this but our Secretary of Homeland Security refers to her shock troops as "Homeland Defenders". They're a de-facto paramilitary organization under direct political control of the Administration that operates largely outside established law and custom. Their primary tools are intimidation and threats but if you stand up to them they'll then arrest you on a Federal charge of interfering with a Federal agent or something bogus like assault. (These charges invariably get dropped or thrown out but they waste a lot of time and resources fighting.) People detained by them are not arrested so they're denied any semblance of due process.

This set up is similar to how other dictatorships enforce security. Its a thin end of the wedge because its all about illegals (except it really isn't....again if you watch carefully what's going on)(which is why they really, really, don't like software like ICE trackers).

[Throatwarbler Mangrove]

@OP: What an odd thing to say.

[Doctor Syntax]

I'm not sure I've seen a BasicReality post that wasn't odd. In fact "Yes Minister" devotees will recognise the phrase "getting rid of the difficult bit in the title". (Series 1, Episode 1)

[Kane]

BasicReality...

"Sites like backpage.com was shut down for promoting illegal activities, no one seemed to care. This is no different, they're helping people break the law by reporting on the activities of law enforcement. Shut them down. There is no first amendment right to this app."

Username does not check out

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: BasicReality...

See my response to Throatwarbler Mangrove above.

[JohnDyson]

Yes, if they don't like the law, then change it. There are serious penalties for breaking some of the immigration laws, but so far Trump has the grace not to enforce them. It is best to offer a chance for a law breaker to change their ways, instead of hitting them with a sledgehammer.

[JohnDyson]

I must modify my statement to make it apply to 'in this case', because Trump does normally enforce the immigration laws. There are rather unpleasant federal penalties for helping someone violate the federal laws. Answering a federal lawsuit can be very expensive, often breaking the person. It is showing grace for the government to avoid lawsuits against an otherwise innocent person, just making a singular misjudgment. I don't agree with everything that is going on, but following the law is important to help avoid anarchy. Cheating (skipping the immigration queues) is unfair against a lot of different people. Just get in the queue, as it offers the potential for green card status or applying for citizenship. (Sorry for the previous overly short response.)

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no penalty for violating federal laws if you are Trump...

[JohnSheeran]

This is such a bizarre conversation to have with people from countries that enforce immigration laws to the letter (or so I've been led to believe). While the tactics used by these knuckleheads leave a lot to be desired, the fundamentals haven't changed.

If the app is for tracking things that have already happened then the author has a valid right to complain about infringement on their FA rights. If they are "warning" people before the government arrival then that sounds like a crime since that kind of thing is generally against the law for pretty much every other example.

[JohnSheeran]

You can go ahead and thumbs down me if you want. Unless we are in full on revolt, the law is still the law.

If we are in full on revolt/civil war then I guess all bets are off.

[collinsl]

Except now that the system is not letting people progress, due to "indefinite pauses" on certain applications at any stage of progress (including some people having their citizenship ceremonies cancelled on the day of the ceremony).

So when the system says "there's no legal way for you to be here even though there was yesterday" then what can you do? After 5, 10, 15, 20 years living in a country, with your family there, your life there, your job there, just to get kicked out and treated like a criminal.

The system no longer works for people, so why should people work with the system?

Anyone in this situation essentially either needs to hand themselves in now and be deported (since they can't deport themselves voluntarily as they'll be "arrested" at the airport), or go into basically permanent hiding and hope that ICE don't find them.

[Groo The Wanderer - A Canuck]

Apparently you're just fine with government overreach and abuse of rights as long as you get to watch your sports on TV and eat your McCrapicles while doing so...

[JohnSheeran]

Hilarious comment. You do realize that the majority of citizens in most countries ARE just fine with it as long as it doesn't affect them, right?

[elsergiovolador]

Standard

Putin must be laughing at Krasnov that he failed to introduce Russian standard.

[Anonymous Coward]

Been tried before; prepare for

1. The gubmint didn't do anything, Apple removed the app of their own volition; the plaintiff has no standing against defendant

2. Special circumstances so special considerations for cops (as especially usual)

3. Case dismissed

[Donn Bly]

And they might have gotten away with such a defense, if Bondi hadn't already publicly admitted that the government DEMANDED that the app be removed and that in the perspective of the government the removal was a direct result of that demand. Those admissions will definitely be entered into evidence, especially as Bondi was acting in the capacity of a representative of the government when they were made.

Lawyers have a duty to defend their client, but they have a higher duty to be honest in their dealings with the court. Any attorney trying to make such a defense, even a government one, would likely find themselves subject to a bar complaint and a "request" that they voluntarily relinquish their license or face possible public sanctions.

Not that I expect that the administration will allow the case to move forward, I am sure that they will find some other shady means of manipulation to make it -- or the plaintiff -- disappear from public view.

[Anonymous Coward]

Relax, it will all be over soon

Supreme Court to make itself redundant.

All power to be transferred to the Trump Royal Family (all praise their orangeness)

[Fruit and Nutcase]

Re: Relax, it will all be over soon

I'm waiting to see which of the Trump clan will be first to starting using orange fake tan just like The Donald in order to identify themselves to the MAGA faithful

[Someone Else]

Re: Relax, it will all be over soon

Eric.

[Taliesinawen]

Criminal culpability and the ICE-tracking app

The developer of the ICE-tracking app, faces potential criminal culpability as an accessory if users of his app rely on its location tracking features to target and kill ICE agents.

[Wizardling]

Re: Criminal culpability and the ICE-tracking app

What utter twaddle.

It never ceases to amaze me how fascists can simultaneously claim to be all powerful and in charge, yet also supremely fragile and one step away from being vanquished by nasty wasty liberal speech.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Criminal culpability and the ICE-tracking app

Liberal nasty wasty speech leads to liberal nasty wasty violence. Most often the speech is being used by people with armed bodyguards.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Criminal culpability and the ICE-tracking app

Liberal violence? You mean like 6th January? Or the current attacks on Somalis? Or the death threats on MTG because she dared criticize his orangeness? The list of violent maga chuds is endless.

[Someone Else]

Re: Criminal culpability and the ICE-tracking app

...or the shooting death of a Minnesota legislator (with the concomitant severe wounding of another that the same MAGAt tried to kill...but failed)?

The term "snowflake" comes to mind.

[Casca]

Re: Criminal culpability and the ICE-tracking app

Ah, another right wing AC. To scared to post with a handle?

[the Jim bloke]

Re: Criminal culpability and the ICE-tracking app

You must have a lot of gun manufacturers in jail, by that logic..

on another tangent, just how many ICE agents have been killed so far?

Not a number I have seen in the news - but I dont follow rightwing conspiracy media, so I am fundamentally ignorant of all these 'facts'

(icon : ICE Terminated ?)

[mcswell]

Re: Criminal culpability and the ICE-tracking app

Exactly--just like the makers of guns have culpability if someone uses their gun to commit a crime.

Oh wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

A Golden Dome against dystopia

The ICEBlock app's very much a public service imho. Seeing how disruptive to everyday activities ICE Klaus Barbie's masked drunken hooligans' incendiary thuggery is, running around like armed bulls in heat in a china shop, without ever showing ID, kidnapping folks right off the streets, brutalizing US War Veterans, and so forth ... Everyone needs to know where they'll stage their next kristallnacht pogrom so we can avoid that area like the plague of lawless rape and pillage they're gonna turn it into.

Same thing with broader sedition activities. We could all use a SeditionBlock app to alert us of where the next bunch of lunatic losers is planning a January 6 inspired "educational" touristic visit of the Capitol with such "heartening" scout chants as "Hang Mike Pence!" and "Bring Nancy Pelosi out here now. We want to hang that fucking bitch!". The app could help all avoid the area's "joyful" celebratory "#winning" ruckus and associated murderous rage thrills, if desired ...

I think all of these could be conveniently merged into a LoserRageBlock app that would map the locations of ongoing and upcoming vindictive retributive totalitarian state violence actions that are expected to increase in frequency and barbarity as the "#winning" orange in fake offal orifice cheese, and chihuahuas, experience the setbacks of proper democracy (hopefully), that so rashes their thin skin and narcissism. Such public service apps will be key to steering clear of the resulting jetstreams of vile metaphoric puss ... a real benefit for all people of good will (with a little luck)!

[codejunky]

Not a good situation

The last administration did a lot of damage with its open borders. Hell they did a lot of damage in their attempt to get Trump. Of course I am sure it is somehow to be blamed on Trump.

[ChodeMonkey]

Re: Not a good situation

The President's willingness to help young (sometimes illegal) immigrant women to find a good living in the United States is well documented.

And your support of President Trump, good friend of Mr Epstein and Mr Bubba, is endearing to say the least.

Bless you.

(Is this perhaps linked to your first hand knowledge of once being an illegal in a foreign country yourself?)

[khjohansen]

Re: Not a good situation

"Open Borders" my ... backside!

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/biden-deportation-record

The current ICE theatre (for some reason mostly in areas with "majority Democrat voters") is about provoking a "state of emergency"

[codejunky]

Re: Not a good situation

@khjohansen

"The current ICE theatre (for some reason mostly in areas with "majority Democrat voters") is about provoking a "state of emergency""

It is easy to deport many when importing many more. Interestingly the border issue stopped almost as soon as Trump took over.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Not a good situation

Ah, our resident expert on being an illegal migrant is posting early today. Which EU country were you a migrant in ... ?

[Casca]

Re: Not a good situation

No respectable country wants him.

[collinsl]

Re: Not a good situation

Check the border figures for Oct/Nov/Dec 2024 and prepare to be amazed - it's almost like Biden solved the problem before Trump was elected, and Trump is riding his coat tails...

[codejunky]

Re: Not a good situation

@collinsl

"Check the border figures for Oct/Nov/Dec 2024 and prepare to be amazed - it's almost like Biden solved the problem before Trump was elected, and Trump is riding his coat tails..."

Really not amazed but maybe you sourced a different graph? It went nuts under Biden and thankfully under Trump fell hard. Are you suggesting the final 3 months of Bidens 4 years when Harris had lost that people stopped illegally crossing to the US?

[Jan 0]

Land of the Not So Free!

TIL that you can't download "apps" from developer websites if you're in the USA!

(Explanation for the non-IT hordes on hetre: So would be users can't just downoad the app from elsewhere.)

You can in the EU and I think I've done it in the UK after Brexit.

How's the rest of the world?

[Irongut]

Re: Land of the Not So Free!

You can download an app from the developer's website for your iPhone? You're not living in Europe or the UK, you're living in Dreamland.

Apple do not allow apps to be installed on iPhone or iPad from anywhere except their app store. Worldwide. Since they first allowed 3rd party developers to publish apps for iPhone. You may have read the term "walled garden" to describe this.

Google are trying to copy them with an upcoming requirement that all developers register with them or have their apps blocked as suspicious.

If you don't know that you must be one of those non-IT people you mention.

[JohnDyson]

Re: Land of the Not So Free!

An artifact of American federal law is that assisting lawbreakers has serious penalties. The first thing that an illegal immigrant does in the US is to violate the law. If someone comes for personal benefit or profit, then isn't illegal entry very disrespectful toward the government and American people/Green Card/legal immigrant? If an immigrant offers themselves for legal entry, then lots of benefits can start to happen for them. It seems that a lot of the reason for illegal entry comes from not knowing or understanding the effects of their choices. There are coyotes that take advantage of the unwise shortcuts, ending up with lots of child rape and trafficking, and other horrible things. This is outside the purview and protection of the government, UNTIL NOW. A lot of children are being tracked down and being made much more safe. This bypassing legal status has all kinds of negative consequences, and even if someone is encouraged to do an illegal act, they are still culpable. The previous administration apparently encouraged a lot of death and trafficking by their allowing irresponsible shortcuts. Immigration IS encouraged, and should be, but Illegal immigration is just... unwise and Illegal, both for the short term and long term personal status. Join the country by standing in line, instead of jumping the queue.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Land of the Not So Free!

If this was applied in the USA, most of the GOP politicians would already being in jail for having employed illegal immigrants...

Or being unfaithful to their spouse as mandated by God's laws (that trump human laws as they are willing to assert).

[collinsl]

Re: Land of the Not So Free!

Immigration is not encouraged under Trump, thanks to the "indefinite pauses" on migration he has put in place from various nations, plus his clear attempts in his previous administration to ban any immigration from any Muslim country.

[Anonymous Coward]

Dangerous speech is not protected

Ianal, but dangerous speech or speech that could cause harm is not protected. The common example is yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater and causing harm when the crowd stampedes when there is not a fire or reasonable belief that one exists.

If this app/data has been used to harm LEOs or people misidentified as ICE/LEO, the case for the govt makes itself. I think we'll find this is a nothing-burger and just more attempts at eye-poking by the folks that made the app. (Sort of like the intent of the app to begin with)

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Dangerous speech is not protected

With the current administration, yelling "Fire" in a Democrat building is allowed, but not in a Republican one.

And killing a Democrat is proper use of your 2nd Amendment Rights, when doing the same for a MAGA promoter will send you to the firing squad or any other painful termination method..

[genmayhem]

Apple Store is not a speech platform

Apple does not have to allow any and all in it's store. it's not just Apple, Covid exposed a lot of the so called "Freedom of speech" is just whatever the platform owner allows. I would imagine that even The Register has a limit to what I am allowed to post here.

[khjohansen]

Re: Apple Store is not a speech platform

Ahh Yes ... But as the AG is ON RECORD as directing Apple to remove the app, it's not about Apple policies, but Gov. overreach!

[Claptrap314]

Timing matters

Interfering with the lawful actions of a governmental agent is a crime. Recording police officers does not in general constitute interference. Real-time communications of the location of agents in the process of attempting to apprehend suspected law breakers clearly does.

Bondi's communications on the matter are certainly, at best, ill-considered. But if I were a lawyer (I'm not) defending the government's actions in this case, I would start with the name of the app (IceBlock) and argue that its entire purpose is to interfere with law enforcement.

I was actually detained by a park ranger for flashing my lights after passing a speed trap. (The section of road was notoriously dangerous.) This was a couple of years AFTER the USSC had ruled my conduct legal. Yes, it sucked. No, I did not take it upon myself to attempt to educate the cretin--he was already wasting entirely too much of my time.