Dorset Council ditching customized SAP for £14M Oracle overhaul

Southwest England's Dorset Council is preparing to swap its legacy SAP ERP for an Oracle-built replacement in a project set to cost £14.2 million over three years. According to an official notice published last week, the £417.2 million-budget unitary authority has signed a £7 million contract with Oracle "for the purchase of …

[Doctor Syntax]

"Experience is a dear teacher but there are those who will learn by no other"

[Tron]

Relax.

Quote: £417.2 million-budget unitary authority.

£417.2 million should just about cover it.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Relax.

Optimist!

Or are you thinking Oracle will limit them to that on the basis that on the basis that that's all they have? Councils have property that they can sell off when squeezed hard enough.

[PCScreenOnly]

Do they not learn ?

Really, close to saying multiply that figure by a factor of 10 at least

[Anonymous Coward]

Are not council business requirements largely the same across the UK?

Build a UK based system as per current laws and by-laws, etc.

Scale as required.

Use across numerous council applications.

[HandleBaz]

Re: Are not council business requirements largely the same across the UK?

You'd think this was something that could just be figured out.

Alas, recent experience with Norway's hospital management system "Helseplatformen" shows that it is in fact not that easy.

There's always some gods-be-damned "wouldn't it be nice if" ruining the entire thing.

[wolfetone]

Re: Are not council business requirements largely the same across the UK?

Yeah but no one is strong enough to lead and tell all of these authorities - you all do the same shit, so account the same way.

So say Norwich Council they need to be able to account for all the tractors they have. Birmingham would need to account for all the Bin Men they don't want to pay.

You can see how this would become problematic if you don't have someone there with a cricket bat to smash home the fact that THEY ALL DO THE SAME FUCKING THING.

[alain williams]

Re: Are not council business requirements largely the same across the UK?

At the risk of sounding like a broken record the councils should get together, write one system and share with other councils around the country. I can see the need for small variations (eg town vs rural) but as wolftone says THEY ALL DO THE SAME FUCKING THING.

If council leaders do not want to do this then we need to start a hunt for brown envelopes, there cannot be any other sensible reason.

[wolfetone]

Re: Are not council business requirements largely the same across the UK?

Vote for me as Prime Minister.

Or head of technology.

I don't care, just give me the cricket bat so I can affect change!!!!

[m4r35n357]

Re: Are not council business requirements largely the same across the UK?

That would be "effect" ;)

[wolfetone]

Re: Are not council business requirements largely the same across the UK?

Tomato, tomato, just give me the damn bat already!

[Like a badger]

Re: Are not council business requirements largely the same across the UK?

If council leaders do not want to do this then we need to start a hunt for brown envelopes, there cannot be any other sensible reason.

Oh but there is. The Universal Power, sometimes referred to as dark matter, the thing that holds the cosmos together, the power that drives gravity, forms the fabric of reality, is in infinite supply and infinite demand, and cannot be destroyed: stupidity. Actually, having played it for laughs, I'll suggest a few better reasons why local authorities don't do this is:

(a) national government won't force them as to do so would be deemed a breach of local democracy (and what do central government know about IT systems?)

(b) Local Government Association could be a starting place but seem intent on avoiding the IT platform issue

(c) There's no credible benchmark data for current systems costs and performance across councils

(d) absent a spec there's a problem even estimating a build and support budget

(e) Most councils are struggling to do what they have to do with the funding they're allowed, and..

(f) few councils have the spare moolah to throw at a speculative project to build a platform that most are many years from needing

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Are not council business requirements largely the same across the UK?

"absent a spec there's a problem even estimating a build and support budget"

Absent getting round to doing something there won't be a spec.

[Tim Kemp]

Re: Are not council business requirements largely the same across the UK?

No, They're not. There's a massive difference between a council the size and scope of Birmingham to that for example of Hull. Some councils have housing, some don't. Some have pensions to administer, others outsource that. Adult Social care and other central grant funded obligations have very odd accounting processess, and the number of transactions is large and complex.

[Like a badger]

Re: Are not council business requirements largely the same across the UK?

And there's a shed-load of commonality: Council tax collection incl overdue and bad debt, same again for business rates, payroll, council finances and reporting, accounts payable/receivable, procurement, planning and licencing, housing benefit payment etc etc.

Any credible council ERP would be modular, if they don't need a module they don't commission it.

[nijam]

Re: Are not council business requirements largely the same across the UK?

> Some councils have housing, some don't.

Surely you mean "Some councils have one or more items on their haousing roster, some have zero." Any numerate person can cope with the use of zero to mean none. So, do councils have established rules against employing numrate staff?

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Are not council business requirements largely the same across the UK?

Where one council doesn't have housing to administer that may simply be at that tier, some other tier may have housing obligations covering that area.

"Adult Social care and other central grant funded obligations have very odd accounting processess, and the number of transactions is large and complex."

One would hope that these processes are followed uniformly everywhere otherwise one might start hearing about post-code lotteries. You have made the best possible case for a standard module to be not just available but used by every council at whatever tier that has that responsibility.

Module is the operative word in this. Given a series of modules to cover the various functions a council could use a mix of them appropriate to its responsibilities.

[Ian Johnston]

Re: Are not council business requirements largely the same across the UK?

Some have pensions to administer, others outsource that.

A perfect example of the problem. Why don't they all do it - why don't they all have to do it - the same way?

[midgepad]

Re: Are not council business requirements largely the same across the UK?

All councils have pensions to administer.

Some do it in house, some outsource it, and I suspect there'll be one that does some in house, and outsourced some.

So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Are not council business requirements largely the same across the UK?

Use some of those extra taxes on Council Tax raised in the budget and provide a single government framework for all councils.

[JimmyPage]

What the fuck are UK local authorities doing

that every single one seems to "need" a bespoke custom solution (a tautology, but it's what the sales droids say).

[Phil O'Sophical]

Re: What the fuck are UK local authorities doing

The people who get themselves elected to councils don't do so because they want to help their local communitty. They do so because they want to show off how clever they are, and how much better they are than anyone else who might have been elected. Ergo, they can't possibly do things the same way as any other council, because then they wouldn't be making a unique difference.

[Tron]

Re: What the fuck are UK local authorities doing

If you want to know what they are up to, read the 'Rotten Boroughs' section of 'Private Eye'. Eye-watering amounts of corruption, incompetence and failure.

[xyz]

Sounds familiar...

Ah the old "out of the frying pan and into the fire" data strategy. I feel like placing a bet on the final cost and delay. Wonder what odds I'll get at the bookies?

[steamnut]

The phrase "council has spent years getting the SAP system to fit its needs" is a warning that they need to heed.

And don't the know about Birmingham's (and others) ongoing problems and increasing costs?

[kmorwath]

Oracle has promised them surely AI will take care of all issues, so what could go wrong?

[wolfetone]

£14M Oracle overhaul

They're either optimistic of their accountants can't count.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: £14M Oracle overhaul

They are not mutually exclusive.

[wolfetone]

Re: £14M Oracle overhaul

My apologises, I acted like Birmingham City Council's own accountants and created a typo that sent the whole world laughing.

I meant or, not of.

[Like a badger]

Re: £14M Oracle overhaul

Off topic but amusing* update from Birmingham today: The agency bin men who were replacing the striking employees have themselves gone on strike.

* Obviously it's not in the slightest bit amusing for those who have to live in Birmingham, but they did vote for this council.

[wolfetone]

Re: £14M Oracle overhaul

The underlying issue with the strikes is what it's about.

BCC have another equal pay matter that they feel can only be fixed by asking the original bin men to take a pay cut/agree to job losses. The bin men, rightly, say no. The proper fix for this is to obviously pay the women the proper amount that their male co-workers get, but they instead want the women to keep on their low pay and ask the men to join them.

That's the crux of it, and sadly it's so entrenched within the council that it's immune to political swing/bias.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: £14M Oracle overhaul

That's a view certainly, but the council created the problem of sweetheart bonus pay for the bin men in the first place, that was the cause of the original equal ops problem. Whilst the council negotiated their way out of that, they then went for a second sweetheart deal with the binmen to create a few better paid WCRO roles that few if any other councils have, until that too was recognised as bin men favouritism that would be construed in the same way. The curious thing is that most bin men went on strike over the WCRO role, even though most were not of that grade and therefore didn't benefit. This was traditional 1960s unionism, "I'm alright, Jack".

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: £14M Oracle overhaul

“ BCC have another equal pay matter that they feel can only be fixed by asking the original bin men to take a pay cut/agree to job losses. The bin men, rightly, say no. The proper fix for this is to obviously pay the women the proper amount that their male co-workers get, but they instead want the women to keep on their low pay and ask the men to join them.”

Wrong. The issue is whether a female school cook should be paid the same as some one working on the bin lorries. They are not co-workers, they’re doing completely different jobs. I’m paraphrasing, but that’s the crux of the issue.

Imagine if we had the same pay grades in IT regardless of your role? This is an IT rag after all?

[Tron]

Re: £14M Oracle overhaul

re: but they did vote for this council.

It doesn't really matter who you vote for in the UK. You just get a different flavour of failure, incompetence and corruption. That's why so many people don't even bother. Whoever gets in will be crap.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: £14M Oracle overhaul

"I meant or, not of."

I read it as you meant it. They are not mutually exclusive.

[kmorwath]

Re: £14M Oracle overhaul

Somene needs to pay Ellison's AI ambitions - his laughs can be heard from very far....

[TVU]

"Dorset Council ditching customized SAP for £14M Oracle overhaul"

I think that this deal will somehow end in tears and very expensive tears at that.

[Anonymous Coward]

Will they ever learn?

It appears not.

Why make this sort of crass, stupid and ugly decision when the Brum disaster is right there for all in UK Local Government to see?

Perhaps the sight of certain brown coloured bits of paper changing hands might explain it.

I hope that the penalty clauses are legally as tight as a pair of handcuffs.

[ICL1900-G3]

Who the fuck do they think they are?

."The council has kept the full business case and the discussion of its decision to adopt Oracle from the public domain."

As ever, they forget they work for us. There is no local government money, it's our money they so freely spend.

[Valeyard]

dear council

whatever cumbersome piece of crap you're currently using, it's better than what you're planning

[Brewster's Angle Grinder]

during the 'blueprinting' design phase of the implementation we will understand how Oracle best practice delivers in scope work processes, with the mindset that we will adopt those ways of working and focus critically through the implementation on change management to support colleagues to work in different ways in the future.

It sounds like they at least understand the problem. It will be interesting to see if it works in practice.

[Like a badger]

The Edinburgh University Oracle fuck-up was down to poor communication and poor change management when trying to have people adopt new processes rather than bend the new IT to fit the old process.

Seems either way you do it, there's a very good chance of it going horribly wrong. From personal experience SAP is as bad as Oracle in these respects, and I'd guess the same for any other mature ERP.

[Missing Semicolon]

It probably is the case that the people specifying the solution and planning the migration actually have no idea what processes are actually in use. They will find out (as Birmingham did) when someone tries to pay a bill, or purchase a service nobody thinks about, or commission some public good delivered in a non-conventional manner.

[ChoHag]

> It sounds like they at least understand the problem. It will be interesting to see if it works in practice.

It won't and it won't.

They're planning (and paying) to replace a system that's taken several years to get working with an expensive shiney from a company known only for how much blood it can draw. Even a Brummy could work it out now.

[Annoyed Grunt]

Sigh.

Setting reminder to check for Reg headlines in around 3 years, along the lines of:

“Council scraps Oracle implementation after repeated failures and budget overruns of £34m…”

[Doctor Syntax]

Don't worry, el Reg has a good memory about such things. They won't let it pass unnoticed unless the council is exceptionally good at hiding things.

[breakfast]

The shape of events

A local authority has a problem; they put the work to tender and the winning bid comes from an Oracle provider. Now they have two problems.

[Anonymous Coward]

Plus ça change…

"The current solution has been highly customized to meet the needs of professional back-office teams and end users. The customizations have led to the higher workloads, just to 'keep the lights on.' The technology is not intuitive or cost effective and requires a high level of maintenance. The current solution and business processes are noted by the council as being clunky, outdated, and non-intuitive. The user experience is inconsistent, with many processes being managed manually 'offline,'" the report said.

And they laughably think that the highly customized, high workload, not intuitive (etc) new Oracle system will be any different?

[Doctor Syntax]

"systems such as an ERP platform are once in a generation investments"

That doesn't mean you have to take an entire generation implementing them.

[Judge Mental]

Don't

Just don't do it.

[Tron]

Just go back to paper.

They can use non-networked computers to print the forms, letters, envelopes and add up the numbers. Much, much cheaper.

They all used to do it like that and it worked OK.

These huge pieces of complex software cost a fortune and only last for a couple of years before they need to be updated/replaced.

[Anonymous Coward]

This will only get worse

With the Starmer shower pushing for mega local authorities I'm sure that more than a few will discover that their existing ERP can't cope with a few hundred thousand more plebs to bill so they'll go out to tender for another system. My local authority will soon disappear as it merges with Blasingspoke and Deane some 25 miles away. Out here on the periphery of the county, we will get the rancid droppings of expenditure. No more new sports centre(despite the funds already being allocated) , no potholes fixed, no nothing apart from ballooning Councilor Expenses (44 miles @45p per mile 2-3 times a week) instead of 2-4 miles 2-3 times a week.

Abandon hope all ye who live here (and everywhere else afflicted by this disease).

Oh, and apply for your bus pass now as after the new bunch of clowns take over, they will be axed.

[Extreme Aged Parent]

Re: This will only get worse

Sadly very true...

[David Hicklin]

Re: This will only get worse

Or you have 2 authorities with different systems merging.....trying to herd cats might be easier

[Pascal Monett]

"the council has spent years getting the SAP system to fit its needs"

Yeah, it's called SAP.

It's what they do. They get a team of "experts" you pay for and that team is a bunch of leeches whose only goal is to stay on for as long as possible. They promise the moon, and deliver a tiny asteroid which is targeted directly at the budget.

I ask for one successful SAP implementation to be proven wrong. Go ahead, find one.

Just one.

[Martin hepworth]

customisation for the fail

Well there we have it, another erp mass customisation builds massive upgrade friction.

Maybe don't fight against the systems and change the internal processes to match the system ....

[David Hicklin]

Re: customisation for the fail

> Maybe don't fight against the systems and change the internal processes to match the system ..

That's the way to do it but here we are probably fighting against departmental Empires who will resist change as much as possible

[James R Grinter]

Re: customisation for the fail

And then discover the system doesn’t have the functionality you require, despite what the salesperson (now working elsewhere) said, and what the contract did not include.

[Extreme Aged Parent]

Counccil Tax

All of the money needed for these projects come from your council tax, if and when there are overruns, then its you who will end up paying the bill.

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's have a round of applause for the Oracle sales people, because come on, they are fucking amazing at their job aren't they. How they still manage to make these new sales is nothing short of a miracle.