UK minister ducks cost questions on nationwide digital ID scheme

A UK tech minister has declined to put a figure on the cost of the government's digital ID plans as MPs question the contributions expected from central departments. Speaking to a House of Commons select committee this week, minister for digital government and data Ian Murray defended the government's decision not to publish …

[David Harper 1]

The next Windrush scandal, except that everyone gets to take part

The Home Office is already trying, and failing, to implement a digital ID system for millions of foreign permanent residents living in the UK. It's called the eVisa system, and it is riddled with flaws. The campaign group the3million has recently published a detailed report on the failings of the eVisa system (https://the3million.org.uk/digital-status-crisis) which should be required reading for anyone advocating for a nationwide digital ID system.

On the plus side, given the track record of large, complex government IT projects, this one is never likely to get off the ground.

[anothercynic]

Re: The next Windrush scandal, except that everyone gets to take part

I can only echo what David says. The eVisa system is an absolute mess, and those subject to it have been told by campaigners to always keep an up to date screenshot of their status on their phone, in case the damn system falls over yet again.

And digital ID with a 'government wallet' - Does that mean you have to unlock your phone to access it to show a police officer on demand? How convenient...

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: The next Windrush scandal, except that everyone gets to take part

"Does that mean you have to unlock your phone to access it to show a police officer on demand?"

No need. It's already on the inside and you've no idea what it is doing.

[Roland6]

Re: The next Windrush scandal, except that everyone gets to take part

Step back..

You will need to unlock your phone to show the sales assistant your id and access your payment card so that you can purchase a phone…

[Dan 55]

Re: The next Windrush scandal, except that everyone gets to take part

I would have thought disabling screenshots to stop forgeries and working offline for a time would have been prerequisites for the app. Even Ryanair have managed that.

[Aladdin Sane]

Papers please!

Anybody know when the next predicted apocalypse is? I've had enough.

[cyberdemon]

> Anybody know when the next predicted apocalypse is? I've had enough.

This Christmas, apparently!

[Roland6]

Re: > Anybody know when the next predicted apocalypse is? I've had enough.

Don’t you just like Musk: full of doom and gloom with no offer of SpaceX to intercept…

[Smeagolberg]

Re: > Anybody know when the next predicted apocalypse is? I've had enough.

"The tech billionaire [Musk] warned that 3I/Atlas poses a collision risk with Earth should it deviate from its current trajectory and said that space chiefs must monitor the object."

I'll go out on a space-limb and challenge him for space expertise:

Jupiter poses a collision risk with Earth should it deviate from its current trajectory.

[Andy The Hat]

Re: > Anybody know when the next predicted apocalypse is? I've had enough.

"Don’t you just like Musk: full of doom and gloom with no offer of SpaceX to intercept…"

Totally agree. All he had to do was build and launch a fleet of ships and set up an Illudium PU-36 Explosive Space Modulator just before we discovered the alien object**, then intercept the pesky thing ... He just had one job to do ...

Now the only possibility is to lob a Falcon 9 at a target heading away into deep space with plenty of room for Trump to sit in an airless fairing and shout crap about aliens about invading the Earth ... could be benefits after all ...

** by any definition it's an alien object but being steered by an alien Uber-comet-steerer is unlikely

[Mickey Porkpies]

Kerching!

it is estimated that about 84,000 phones are stolen annually how much fun will this be to maintain on top of the massive costs people like Capita or Fujitsu will charge

[smudge]

Re: Kerching!

it is estimated that about 84,000 phones are stolen annually

I was assuming that the digital IDs would be accessible via a phone, not actually held on one?

So, making the necessary assumption that effective user ID and authentication is in place, a phone being stolen shouldn't be too inconvenient. Until you get a new one, you should be able to look it up on someone else's, if you trust them.

[Roland6]

Re: Kerching!

> I was assuming that the digital IDs would be accessible via a phone, not actually held on one?

That would par for the course…

The number of times Trainline is unable to access e-tickets when at the ticket barrier or when the ticket inspector walks down the train, is such that you are well advised to either take a screen shot or have a paper copy.

[nobody who matters]

Re: Kerching!

"I was assuming that the digital IDs would be accessible via a phone, not actually held on one?"

In some areas away from towns (and even within some towns and cities), there are surprisingly frequent encounters with areas with no mobile signal, and others where a usable signal suddenly disappears when you try to use it.

If these digital IDs are only going to be accessible via a mobile phone, they are going to be no use at all in many places.

[DS999]

Re: Kerching!

If they are held in your phone's Apple/Google wallet it doesn't need any cellular/wifi connectivity. I have no idea how they plan to implement this screw this up though.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Kerching!

You obviously haven't lost your phone (or had it stolen) containing your banking authenticators.

[Prst. V.Jeltz]

Thing with computer systems is , they are scalable , and this is just a database.

Theres lots of commercial programs that hold a database of information , perhaps for a company's customers for example . These are developed and sold to businesses , whop buy them at affordable prices .

But put the the words "national" or "Government I.T " in to it and those prices will multiply by thousands

There only 70 million people in the UK , so we're talking a database with only 70 million records .

I could probably knock something up in Excel if you dont want to pay for an Oracle license

[Anonymous Coward]

re: I could probably knock something up in Excel

And just how scalable is that then?

Oracle/DB2/SQL-Server are not the only databases capable of handling this size of application. Excel is not one of those.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: re: I could probably knock something up in Excel

You think that would be a consideration in ministerial and Perm Sec minds?

[Natalie Gritpants Jr]

Re: re: I could probably knock something up in Excel

It might well be OK if the frequency of you using your ID is low enough. How often do you want to be proving your ID? Once an hour? a day? a month? a year? If it's more than once a month, we're in a police state.

[Prst. V.Jeltz]

Re: re: I could probably knock something up in Excel

And just how scalable is that then? .... Excel is not one of those.

Yes that was my little jest .

I'm sure free version of SQLite will do a 70m record db

I would of course ,in reality , with my limited knowledge if big system architecture suggest a cluster of servers host whichever id the most robust OS and DB system .

what would that cost ? 50k 100k ?

or set up in cloud AWS for similar money .

... and those figures will somehow end up being about 0.1% of the actual cost , which will be in the billions no doubt

[Roland6]

Re: re: I could probably knock something up in Excel

Scalable?

That’s provided by the queue; wait your turn, I’ll will be with you sometime next year…

[Richard 12]

What happens when they're wrong?

Buttle/Tuttle is just the start.

Many people are known by several different names in different contexts. Often due to limitations of the database - eg their "actual" name is longer or uses characters the database doesn't support.

A little under half of all people change their name at least once in their life.

While the vast majority do that in church or court, these records are written on paper or vellum, scattered across the country and incomplete - especially for changes that happened a couple of decades ago.

And a lot are not recorded anywhere, because under Common Law your name is what you say it is.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: What happens when they're wrong?

"under Common Law your name is what you say it is."

That'll have to go for a start.

[Adair]

Re: What happens when they're wrong?

Yep, English Common Law is gloriously (and, for some, infuriatingly) loose when it comes to names. OTOH, the legal system as a whole, including the government bureaucracy, does prefer consistency. On your head be it if you persistently change your name without due process, or use multiple monikers for official business.

[Doctor Syntax]

"I could probably knock something up in Excel if you dont want to pay for an Oracle license"

It may well be knocked up in Execl but at Oracle prices.

[Roland6]

> I could probably knock something up in Excel if you dont want to pay for an Oracle license

So old fashioned, Vibe is today’s tool…

[elsergiovolador]

Don't forget that ultimate goal is to track everyone's movements and listen to conversations. Such dataset will become large quick.

[nobody who matters]

"I could probably knock something up in Excel if you dont want to pay for an Oracle license"

Excel isn't a database ;)

[Doctor Syntax]

This will come as a surprise to many in the Civil Service as has already been demonstrated.

[Dan 55]

Surprised this wasn't mentioned already...

Excel: Why using Microsoft's tool caused Covid-19 results to be lost

[Anonymous Coward]

On this forum, the LibreOffice zealots will swear that's all you need!

[codejunky]

Typical government

"Committee hears departments may have to stump up cash before savings materialize"

This being investment. Something the gov is lousy at. They can spend the money, and it will go over budget, and the savings wont exist but will instead cost more and the government will call it investment.

The gov has invested greatly in this country and continue to do so. At the same time they are spending wildly more than we can afford, call pissing away less money than the previous government 'austerity' and yet costs keep rising and services getting worse.

We would save more money if they dont do these stupid schemes, cut down public sector spending and cut themselves down to size. Instead it keeps growing and consuming beyond what we can afford.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Typical government

Well you had to have Brexit, didn't you? The UK civil service grew because the UK couldn't take advantage of the economies of scale that being in the EU offered any more.

[codejunky]

Re: Typical government

@AC

"Well you had to have Brexit, didn't you? The UK civil service grew because the UK couldn't take advantage of the economies of scale that being in the EU offered any more."

That is a poor explanation. Why did the public sector have to keep growing before brexit then?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Typical government

Why, to prepare for Brexit of course. Here's your 47-page report: Brexit and the State. May I direct your attention to pages 11-18.

[codejunky]

Re: Typical government

@AC

"Why, to prepare for Brexit of course. Here's your 47-page report: Brexit and the State. May I direct your attention to pages 11-18."

And before that??? You seem delusional to think the public sector only grew with brexit. What about before?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Typical government

May I draw your attention to the graph right at the top of page 12? It's the old adage about leading the horse to water but being unable to make it drink.

[ChodeMonkey]

Re: Typical government

How dare you compare renowned economics expert, Mme codejunky to some thirsty old nag. For shame, Sir!

[codejunky]

Re: Typical government

@AC

"May I draw your attention to the graph right at the top of page 12? It's the old adage about leading the horse to water but being unable to make it drink."

Awesome. Now read my comment. Your page 12 graph starts at 2016. Labour for their 13 years notoriously expanded the state. That was well before brexit.

You can lead a coward to the answer but you cant make them think.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Typical government

And when Labour left office, the Tories were implementing your beloved cut-backs and the state was shrinking, but then they were forced to expand the civil service again due to Brexit.

[codejunky]

Re: Typical government

@AC

"And when Labour left office, the Tories were implementing your beloved cut-backs and the state was shrinking, but then they were forced to expand the civil service again due to Brexit."

Except they didnt. The Tories claimed to be doing austerity, but were spending more and more than Brown did. That is not austerity. Also the state wasnt shrinking, the 'bonfire of quangos' promised was a failure and instead the state expanded.

I note you dont disagree that the state expanded under Labour yet we were in the EU. And with reality being that it continued to expand it seems brexit isnt the excuse you hoped it would be.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Typical government

What you are claiming is literally contrary to the graph which shows that the civil service shrank between the Tories entering office and the Brexit referendum and started to grow after the referendum to prepare for Brexit. It's a V shape graph. As much as you claim otherwise, all any poster has to do is click on the link I gave, scroll to page 12, view the graph, and read the rest of the document if are interested in going deeper into the subject.

So, on that note, I think we will conclude the thread here.

[codejunky]

Re: Typical government

@AC

"What you are claiming is literally contrary to the graph which shows that the civil service shrank between the Tories entering office and the Brexit referendum and started to grow after the referendum to prepare for Brexit."

Ok so I looked again and are you are on pdf page 11 which is the report page 12? If that is the case then the graph starts at 2009 and has about the same number of civil servants as now. Yet we were in the EU under labour for 13 years with a growing public sector (your graph seems limited to civil servants).

"So, on that note, I think we will conclude the thread here."

Feel free but you have certainly not linked even your claim of just the civil servants (I said public sector) to brexit.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Typical government

it seems brexit isnt the excuse you hoped it would be

Well at least Brexit got rid of all those illegal immigrants, eh? (People working without permits or visas are now show the door!)

[codejunky]

Re: Typical government

@AC

"Well at least Brexit got rid of all those illegal immigrants, eh? (People working without permits or visas are now show the door!)"

This is just the usual government incompetence and a strange state of governments not being willing or able to protect the country. Considering the EU has the same problem (and has for a while) I dont think we can blame brexit for that either.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Typical government

British are now regularly to to pack their bags. After all, Brexit means Brexit. Working in the EU without permissions is no longer allowed. (As you yourself found out?)

[Anonymous Coward]

Think of a very big number

Then multiply it by your favourite number, add 45%, three judicial enquiries, a quango and multiple system upgrades.

[elsergiovolador]

Re: Think of a very big number

Don't forget few truckloads of books written by ministers and for those who can't write organising a speaking circuit.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Think of a very big number

"for those who can't write"

Not a problem. Wasn't there a whole lot of Snapchat or WhatsApp stuff leaked a while ago because some politician gave access to a journalist who was their ghostwriter?

[ComicalEngineer]

I can see this being an incredibly expensive fustercluck.

If everyones' personal details are stored in a huge database then the whole population is at risk from a single hack. My guess is that the details held will include name, date of birth, nationality, National Insurance number, passport number, driving license details, phone number, address and biometric data. Basically more or less everything someone needs for identity theft.

We're doomed if this goes through, not because I'm particularly bothered about the government knowing my details, they already have the information in different places, but simply the risk of the details all being in one place and getting hacked and the hacker being able to put all the pieces together.

And then let's keep it all on your phone! A small gadget that can easily be stolen (or lost). Never mind those that don't have a "smart" phone or access to the internet.

Then we just need the scheme to be run by Crapita / ASOS / Fujitsu / Serco with IT support from India.

[smudge]

And then let's keep it all on your phone! A small gadget that can easily be stolen (or lost).

Surely it's "accessed by" a phone, not "kept on" a phone???

[A. Coatsworth]

So a Cloudfare fart, internet outage, or running out of data means you become undocumented?

That's much better.

[Doctor Syntax]

Surely it's "accessed by" a phone, not "kept on" a phone???

I doubt it's been decided on a technical level but they'll probably work on the assumption that it's both, just in case.

But from TFA: "The plan is to use smartphones to store digital IDs "

[Roland6]

> If everyones' personal details are stored in a huge database then the whole population is at risk from a single hack.

It will be very secure, it will be operated by Palantir, run on Azure and adminstered from China.

[Bebu sa Ware]

operated by Palantir, run on Azure and adminstered from China.

It will be very secure, it will be operated by Palantir, run on Azure and adminstered from China.

At least it would be reliable as then it would be in the interest of the PRC to keep it up even to the point of running a redundant copy just in case Azure has one of its rare outages. /s

[ChrisElvidge]

If everyones' personal details are stored in a huge database then the whole population is at risk from a single hack. My guess is that the details held will include name, date of birth, nationality, National Insurance number, passport number, driving license details, phone number, address and biometric data. Basically more or less everything someone needs for identity theft.

That is everyone except politicians, senior police officers, senior armed forces officers, Lords and above. Add to this list as required.

[elsergiovolador]

Collabour

Read this:

https://thewinepress.substack.com/p/tokenization-blackrocks-larry-fink

Then this:

https://www.cityam.com/reeves-and-starmer-meet-blackrocks-larry-fink-for-growth-talks/

Suddenly Digital ID is Labour's flagship policy, without democratic mandate.

and CLOWN5 is asleep at the wheel.

[Roland6]

Re: Collabour

The scary part is Labour has track record in trying to appear to be with it, then having all the other parties join in and actually try and deliver the hype; HS2 is a good example of this…

[alain williams]

Upcoming budget

There is a budget next week and Rachel Reeves is desperately trying to close a black hole. It seems that we have found her a £500m bonus - prolly much more when you consider cost overruns.

We all have pet projects but when the pennies are tight we have to give up on some of them. That is, of course, unless the Gov't thinks that it can run a profit by selling some of our information to big tech or the CIA or someone.

[elsergiovolador]

Re: Upcoming budget

It's not some pet project, it's Larry Fink's pet project. You can clearly see who Labour works for.

[CorwinX]

Keir Starmer said digital IDs were...

... "an enormous opportunity for the UK."

I would expand that to "an enormous opportunity for the UK government to snoop on and interfere with lives of citizens"

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Keir Starmer said digital IDs were...

You mean the UK government that reportedly wants the private keys to everyone's Apple backups?

And now they're mandating that everyone install special software on their phone, where everyone's confidential correspondence is kept.

How long until the digital ID app gets a quiet update with the ability to root through your phone to "make sure you're not a terrorist" or "protect the children"?

[elsergiovolador]

Re: Keir Starmer said digital IDs were...

Enormous opportunity for Larry Fink and his BlackRock. Starmer takes British people for fools.

[nobody who matters]

Re: Keir Starmer said digital IDs were...

"Starmer takes British people for fools."

Sadly, quite a lot of them are :(

[Acrimonius]

Many elections later...

How long will it take? Another scary number. In the time-honoured software palance it will be ready when it is ready is even scarier than normal as the state of readiness will be whatever is convenient to the latest government in power.

[Paul Herber]

"UK minister ducks"

I would very much like to see ducks become eligible to become ministers within the UK parliamentary system. They might do a better job than the lizards. Mind you, ducks need duck ponds and duck houses and then the expenses really start mounting up!

<icon=looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, weighs the same as a duck ...>

[Bebu sa Ware]

Mind you, ducks need duck ponds and duck houses

Peking ducks don't. ;)

Wouldn't be the first time a government has been accused of playing at ducks and drakes.

Just noticed if one replaces the 'd's with 'f's it doesn't greatly change the meaning.

[Bebu sa Ware]

"whether the permanent secretary would necessarily have the experience…"

"whether the permanent secretary would necessarily have the experience of digital transformation needed for the CDO role."

Of course not minister

If we appointed people who were actually competent, where would we be ?

It would be the thin edge of the wedge… we would be on a very slippery slope, minister.

Thank you, Humphrey.

[Tron]

Save money. Licence it from China.

The Chinese monitor all their citizens with this sort of tech. The UK could just licence the tech from China. Much cheaper than building it from scratch.

[Anonymous Coward]

Does It Matter Whether.........................

...............a "Digital ID" is held in a central database or on a smartphone?

This question is just MORE MISDIRECTION!!

The real question is this: "Why do we allow the STASI into the UK government?"

[Mike 137]

UK minister ducks

Oh, that explains why they'll quack on regardless of practicality or adverse side effects.

But seriously, it's happened before. The myth that "everyone has a smartphone" will become the fact that "you can't get a job or see your doctor unless you have a smartphone". So we write off maybe 20% of the population?

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: UK minister ducks

You'd expect that something calling itself "Human Rights Watch" would realise that supporting the rights of people with less than perfect eyesight would be something they should do and not produce pages with lots of white space and text in small, thin, sans-serif fonts. But you'd be disappointed.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why a digital ID?

Why not simply an ID card? Or is that too sensitive an issue in the UK?

[nobody who matters]

Re: is that too sensitive an issue?

Yes.

[Anonymous Coward]

Shouldn't cost much to develop

The UK government has already implemented it in Bosnia and Georgia with taxpayer's money.

Now it's just a case of "Here's one we made earlier... you know... in case we declared a national emergency. It's not like we've been planning it for decades. "