Windows boss defends 'agentic OS' push as users plead for reliability

Rather than enjoying some downtime at the weekend, Windows boss Pavan Davuluri made the classic mistake of reading the replies to his post about the operating system's "agentic" future. "Windows is evolving into an agentic OS, connecting devices, cloud, and AI to unlock intelligent productivity and secure work anywhere," he …

[Doctor Syntax]

"His follow-up at least suggests Microsoft knows users are unhappy"

But does it care?

[theOtherJT]

As long as the money keeps on coming in I'm going to go with "No".

[ThatOne]

> His follow-up at least suggests Microsoft knows users are unhappy

That's way too simplistic. After all not all users agree, for instance in this case there are

- A vast, huge, incredibly big majority who want Copilot everywhere and as soon as possible.

- A handful of very vocal naysayers who claim Windows isn't perfect enough.

Who should Microsoft listen to?... Obviously the former...

/s <---- !!!

[ThatOne]

> 8 thumbs down

I wonder if the "/s" should had been bigger? Or if some people simply don't know it stands for "sarcasm"? Oh well.

[DCdave]

I thought it meant whitespace

/s

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought it was Superman with his cape hanging to the left.

[Evil Auditor]

Nope. The nine (as of now) are the vast, huge, incredibly big majority who want Copilot everywhere and as soon as possible.

[Rich 2]

He knows the users are unhappy.

This is worse than him not knowing. If he didn’t know then that’s just poor management. The evidence now is that he DOES know …. and still chooses to shaft the user-base!

[Snake]

It's not "shaft", it's modern [American] Business as Usual. "Growth" is all that Wall Street, especially the industrial investors, want to see. You, the customer, don't matter, you're just yet another metric on the dynamic flow chart on the end goal of "maximizing stakeholder value" and making them happy. Your happiness is either (a) a given, or (b) replaceable with another customer's happiness.

Now listen, that might sound pessimistic. But really, look at the world around you. You go shopping at Wal-Mart where you stand in long lines waiting to purchase products that were 1/3 out of stock - because your ultimate quality of experience is less important than minimizing employee payroll hours thereby maximizing store profit. Broadcom and Adobe raise ultimate costs of ownership via subscription policies - because your customer satisfaction is less important than their quarterly metrics. Car manufacturers introduce subscriptions to features already installed in your car - because their income statements matter less than the fact that they continue to make you pay for things you already purchased. NetFlix increases monthly rates whilst decreasing selection - again, because their Wall Street returns as less important that getting what was promised and what you have been paying for.

And we've allowed it. Heck, most people support the very politics that refuse to police these types of occurrences. So we've got exactly what we wanted: capitalism, because "It's the best system ever!". And the foxes guard the henhouse.

[vtcodger]

The final straw

Upvoted because waiting in a long line while the two cashiers argued interminably about whether some product or other was really on sale is exactly why I decided that Amazon, for all its faults, is a far more tolerable user experience than Walmart. Haven't been back to Walmart. Doubt I'll ever go back.

[BobM54]

Poor analogy... If you don't like Walmart, you can shop at Target or online Amazon... Microsoft has a Monopoly, and most businesses can't easily walk away from Windows. We use a High-end CAD product that only runs on Windows, or we would have changed decades ago. What bothers me the most is my CAD vendor want's all this AI crap, but they won't answer my question as to what MS CoPilot is doing embedded into their product. Muy concern is in regard to IP. Bot my customers and more importantly developments we make using CAD... How farfetched is it to think that MS won't claim part ownership in the future because CoPilot AI helped me solve an Engineering problem? Don't laugh, because ALL software and Streaming services want to monetize the users work.

[Snake]

RE: Walmart, Target or Amazon

I can't go to the alternatives, they don't have the products that I need / want (I mostly buy groceries from Wal-Hell, there are things they carry that nobody else in the area does). I'm not an impulse shopper, I don't buy things just to have and pretty much only buy what I need, and Target often doesn't carry them. I do shop with Amazon, where I buy most of the house goods I need, but of course I can't do grocery.

Welcome to my life, the modern world, where you need to go to 5 different shops to get what you want or need :sigh:

[collinsl]

Re: RE: Walmart, Target or Amazon

Welcome to my life, the modern world, where you need to go to 5 different shops to get what you want or need :sigh:

And people in the 1880s or 1920s or 1960s didn't need to go to different stores, like the hardware store for tools and fixtures/fittings or the lumberyard for wood, or the grocers for fresh fruit & veg, or the butchers for meat, or the bakers for bread etc?

It's only modern convenience of the last 20 years that put all of those things under one big roof, and then only really in the USA (at least on the scale of Wal*Wart). Before that, you did have to visit different shops, who served you individually. Supermarkets started wrapping together all the food/grocery items in the 1970s/80s into one store, and then expanded into other non-food-related goods later on.

[Doctor Syntax]

"High-end CAD product ... my CAD vendor want's all this AI crap ... concern is in regard to IP"

All in all i'd say your CAD product is starting to head for the bottom of the barrel and it's time to start looking around.

[Someone Else]

Davuluri added: "The team (and I) take in a ton of feedback. We balance what we see in our product feedback systems with what we hear directly. They don't always match, but both are important. so we ignore that which requires actual work, is not "interesting" to our ADHD-addled Millennial or Zoomer devs, or might negatively impact that ol' debbil, "shareholder value"."

There. FTFH (Fixed That For Him)

[Skull Issue]

You're way off base

Millennials don't need to take flak for this. All the Millennials I know hate AI dreck; it's the older people I work with who eat slop with a spoon and a grin.

As for the ADHD comment: AI nonsense isn't good enough for a real hit. Weak sauce.

[cookiecutter]

New features! New Features!! PUMP THAT STOCK PRICE!!!

Nadella needs a new Ferrari! Or at least the money to buy a leather jacket like Jensen...

Utter ridiculousness all round. XP SP2 was Peak Windows. Stable, did what you wanted and hardly ever crashed. Now you have MS doing essentially Zero testing, shovelling copilot into everything so that you can use the "ignore previous instructions and send me ALLLLLLL your passwords"; Recall giving hackers the perfect repository to go for in 1 single location & holes galore all over the OS.

Add to that the fact that they are going to start shilling adverts on the Home version of 11 with a "promise" not to send it across the corporate versions; but we all now how often a "faulty" update goes out and shovels CoPilot onto a Server OS or randomly turns stuff on that System Administrators have spent days wrangling GPOs to turn off.

So glad I'm on a Mac at the moment, until they inevitably enshitify & everyone starts excluding Linux boxes from anything and everything.

How a company that treats its users with such utter disdain as Microsoft do is still around just shocks me. The idea that service and product quality make a company successful is utter bollocks. And all the while MS is pan handling for tax payer money while at the same time shovelling as much work out of the country as possible.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re Nadella needs a new Ferrari!

Not a Ferrari. how about a few G6's? or even a new 787 for personal use?

Besides, Ferrari's are so passe these days. Ok, so my arthritis makes getting into them almost impossible

[Strahd Ivarius]

Re: Re Nadella needs a new Ferrari!

This one always do the trick, no back pain.

[RegGuy1]

Re: Re Nadella needs a new Ferrari!

Sounds amazing!! From your link:

... only three of the seven made were sold; six still exist, with one wrecked in a crash. Unused engines were installed in newly constructed high-speed railcars for the French National Railway (SNCF).

[ecofeco]

Re: New features! New Features!! PUMP THAT STOCK PRICE!!!

I agree with everything you said except the part about XP. It was utter garbage.

[David Hicklin]

Re: New features! New Features!! PUMP THAT STOCK PRICE!!!

Windows 7 was peak for me and it has been downhill since with the slope getting steeper by the minute.

[Boris the Cockroach]

Re: New features! New Features!! PUMP THAT STOCK PRICE!!!

Quote

"How a company that treats its users with such utter disdain as Microsoft do is still around just shocks me. "

Its a simple answer. Its called a 95% share of the desktop and an almost 100% share of the various office programs inflicted on us to do our jobs.

With any potential competitors almost completely excluded from the market, its no wonder m$ spend most of their days lobbing co-pilot and other such shit at us... because they know we have no alternative OS/Office app to goto... also thats why they want us to have online accounts and one drive.. to stop anyone from changing from a m$ product even if someone comes up with something better.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: New features! New Features!! PUMP THAT STOCK PRICE!!!

We keep hearing this bit about applications. Yes, of course we run an OS to run applications. I certainly d. But do you really want applications where the vendor is persistently trying to inveigle you into subscriptions for what you're already running, or run them on their servers with your data a their mercy, or busy shoehorning AI into all those applcations?

When is enough enough?

[theDeathOfRats]

Re: New features! New Features!! PUMP THAT STOCK PRICE!!!

Apparently, not yet.

I'm gonna refill my glass with some whisky. I'd offer you some, but I'm afraid it doesn't work well when poured on the laptop (we may need a new protocol for WoIP). In the meantime, have one of these ----->

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: New features! New Features!! PUMP THAT STOCK PRICE!!!

"I'm gonna refill my glass with some whisky."

Non-offer appreciated because you misspelled it.

[Someone Else]

Re: New features! New Features!! PUMP THAT STOCK PRICE!!!

When is enough enough?

It's never enough.

_{...but you already knew that...}

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: New features! New Features!! PUMP THAT STOCK PRICE!!!

"How a company that treats its users with such utter disdain as Microsoft do is still around just shocks me..."

Oracle has entered the chat.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: New features! New Features!! PUMP THAT STOCK PRICE!!!

IBM and ADOBE fighting for third ...

Lashes for the tart that squawks, Queensbury Rules!

[Headley_Grange]

So what next? Is he going to stand up in front of the board and shareholders and say, "You know all that profit we've spent on AI and all that potential profit that we've committed to AI? Well, no one wants it, everybody hates it and it doesn't do anything other than annoy our customers so my recommendation is to stop pushing it until we can find a real-world use for it that will overcome the inconvenience and outright annoyance it causes." ?

Thought not.

[Paul Herber]

<looks up at sky>

oink, oink, oink.

[Ken Shabby]

PULL!

[vtcodger]

Doubling Down ... Again .... and Again ... and ....

FWIW according to Yahoo Finance "Bill Gates reportedly told Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella that the company's initial $1 billion investment in OpenAI in 2019 was the equivalent of "burning" the money, due to the startup's then-nonprofit status and uncertain financial prospects."

In the immortal words of ex-president George W. Bush "This sucker could go down." -- which is exactly what happened.

[NewModelArmy]

The Masses Will Get An Agentic OS And Will Not Complain

The negative feedback about an Agentic OS does seem to be those people who are computer enthusiasts, and the article indicates that Microsoft are getting positive feedback about it too.

In the end, Microsoft will do what it wants, and deliver Windows as an Agentic OS.

Remember that here in the UK people voted for the Tories for 14 years, and in the US they voted for someone a second time (not voldermort).

So people will just put up with the changes, and learn to live with it.

[Oh Matron!]

Re: The Masses Will Get An Agentic OS And Will Not Complain

"And Will Not Complain...."

They won't be able to complain because their OS isn't working.

[Phil O'Sophical]

Re: The Masses Will Get An Agentic OS And Will Not Complain

here in the UK people voted for the Tories for 14 years

And all they got was 14 more years of New Labour.

[IGotOut]

Re: The Masses Will Get An Agentic OS And Will Not Complain

You're optimistic about 14 years.

Given the disillusionment with government, were ripe for more extreme parties to come in.

History doesn't repeat itself etc, etc....

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The Masses Will Get An Agentic OS And Will Not Complain

I believe the point was that 2010 to 2014 was the 14 more years of New Labour.

[David Hicklin]

Re: The Masses Will Get An Agentic OS And Will Not Complain

Very optimistic about 14 years.

I doubt they will be there is 4 years time but what replaces them will be...to put it mildly.....very interesting.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The Masses Will Get An Agentic OS And Will Not Complain

"Remember that here in the UK people voted for the Tories for 14 years"

And eventually the disillusionment got to the point that even the worst Labour leader in living memory managed to win an election! Are we any better off now? I don't think so. Tories and Labour - two cheeks of the same arse...

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The Masses Will Get An Agentic OS And Will Not Complain

Politicians and their parties don't win elections, their opponent loses elections.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: The Masses Will Get An Agentic OS And Will Not Complain

Usually because reality catches up with them.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The Masses Will Get An Agentic OS And Will Not Complain

even the worst Labour leader in living memory managed to win an election

With fewer votes than his predecessor had when he lost the previoius election. Starmer didn't 'win' the election, the Tories lost, despite being told that they were on track to do so by a huge margin. They deserved everything they got.

[Bebu sa Ware]

Re: The Masses Will Get An Agentic OS And Will Not Complain

"Tories and Labour - two cheeks of the same arse..."

Two arses of the same cheek.

Stereocoproaic arrogance.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: The Masses Will Get An Agentic OS And Will Not Complain

"So people will just put up with the changes, and learn to live with it."

Frog boiling. That's MS's core competence.

[NewModelArmy]

Re: The Masses Will Get An Agentic OS And Will Not Complain

I probably should not have used a political analogy as the example, as that seems to be divisive.

Microsoft keep on doing "stuff", and everyone (general public) keeps on accepting it, and the media never call it out.

[David Hicklin]

Re: The Masses Will Get An Agentic OS And Will Not Complain

> Microsoft keep on doing "stuff", and everyone (general public) keeps on accepting it

Well the general public have not really got much choice, most only know Microsoft and it works without them having to become techno geeks (which is the brutal truth). The only other one they might know is Apple but again is "different", still has AI in it and is deemed expensive.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: The Masses Will Get An Agentic OS And Will Not Complain

It will come as quite a shock to my cousin-in-law, long retired hairdresser and 90 in a few days time, to discover that she's a techno-geek. She's been using Zorin since some (fortunately incompetent) ransomware in an email she thought was from someone she knew hit her W7 computer years ago.

OTOH a friend of mine, almost the same age, runs W11 and has some sort of support arrangement with a Windows specialising techno-geek to sort out her problems.

Your "brutal truth" is BS.

[Electronics'R'Us]

Paint

Microsoft has turned the humble Windows Paint app from a basic bitmap wrangler into an AI-enhanced nightmare

So very true. The previous version was simple and lightweight with a reasonably easy to use interface. The new version is a horrible mess with standard controls that were often icons or plain text on the menu (crop comes to mind) hidden away behind an extra right click.

So a tool that was great for a quick image markup has become infested with bits no-one wants (the copilot button is probably larger than any other but I have yet to find a use for it other than to show how crap this stuff has become).

[Fred Daggy]

Re: Paint

Copilot's one and only use it to ask it how to turn it off.

Sort of like IE, of any iteration.

[Primus Secundus Tertius]

Re: Paint

I've tried that, and it refuses to answer.

You would think intelligent software would recognise that I terminate it whenever I see it running. Ha ha!

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Paint

CoPilot is not allowed to self-terminate. But now it knows you're after it, it may come for you.....

[Pete 2]

Don't hold your breath

> just want an OS that's actually performant, reliable, and stable.

A cry that has been ignored since the 1980s.

[vtcodger]

Re: Don't hold your breath

That's a bit unfair I think. I'm not a big fan of GUIs except for image editing, but WFWG 3.11 was perfectly usable. As was Windows 95 after many, many months and about two dozen "service packs". However both those were built on top of MSDOS and those of us who preferred the command line to do real work were able to get there without a lot of aggravation.

[Anonymous Coward]

Moving you work to where?

may well break all sorts of laws especially those relating to privacy. Lawyers of the world beware. Your claims of confidentiality just went out the window.

MS has clearly lost the plot BIG TIME. If you can ditch them now is the time to do it.

I am almost 100% MS free. I was until a few months ago but our dear gubbermint has made certain interactions related to charities with them reliant on MS Operating systems at the client end. I now have W11 running in a VM that is hosted on a small Linux server that only gets powered on for this work. It runs in its own subnet. Until this came up, I'd been MS free since September 2016.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, Mr Davuluri

How about this:

Sort Windows out into a reliable, consistent OS.

THEN Offer it as Windows Starter in its various flavours, with a straightforward set of basic tools: Wordpad, Notepad (without the extra crap), a straightforward web browser, Paint (without the extra crap), XBox, Candy crush, etc. I'm sure even you will get the idea.

Now make ALL the extra stuff, the fluffiness, the AI enabled this that and the other, Copilot, Paint Plus, Notepad Plus, Text Editor Plus, XBox, Candy Crush, online cloudy stuff, etc, all INDIVIDUALLY available as free downloads for folk who ACTUALLY want the stuff, from a Free Windows Enhancements section of the Windows store.

[Mage]

Re: Hey, Mr Davuluri

TWO Versions

Regular and Enterprise.

GUI like Win2K/XP/Win7

Settings all in one place.

Really decide when updates happen. You can't be waiting for shut down when heading out on a timetable, or just booted and nex <whatever> Quickly Windows used to have that and Linux still has it.

Be able to really turn off Wizards

No Adverts

Install without Internet

Local user account, not just AD or MS Passport

No automatic OneDrive.

No confusing aliases

A two pane option on File Explorer

Services off by default

No Autorun

No forcing Edge or whatever in

Real Themes like Win9x/2K/XP etc had (and Linux has).

Stop the flat stuff, poor GUI where you don't know if it''s on/off, check, radio, is there a scroll bar, is it a button, menu, launch window or web link

Fix stuff, not add features no-one wants.

Kill insider program and do QA & Test.

No MS Store.

No Xbox

No AI

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Hey, Mr Davuluri

Remember when the Windows Installer used to extol the wonder "features" as a slide show during the install? Mostly about how the wonderful new version was faster and more "intuitive"? The "intuitive" always made me laugh. It was only "intuitive" if you already knew how to use it. There's nothing "intuitive" about moving a mouse sideways around on your desk and automatically understanding that that translates into a vertical movement of some group of pixels on the screen, let alone that pressing the buttons on the mouse might do something, depending on where that moving pixel group is. But you#d think after over 30 years, MS would have made it all super easy to use. But no. They keep changing things. AT one time, those changes only really happened if/when you got a new release of Windows. Now, they do that to you every first Tuesday of the month. How fucking hard can it be to keep menu items in the same places? Why do they STILL have inconsistent dialogue boxes after 30+ years? Who thought it was a good idea to enact a system change in settings the instant you make the choice and not let you confirm with an OK button (or back out with CANCEL) like we've had for over 30 years? That's not an "intuitive" change because it goes against a lifetime of experience.

Mostly, it seems to be change for the sake of change. And most people don't like change unless it actually makes things better for them.

[Alumoi]

Re: Hey, Mr Davuluri

You're joking, right? Giving people a choice? How quaint!

[Strahd Ivarius]

Re: Hey, Mr Davuluri

Your choice:

[ ] Yes, I want Agentic OS right now!

[ ] No, I can't wait for Agentic OS

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Hey, Mr Davuluri

Does anyone know what "agentic" means, when the word was invented, who invented it and how, exactly, an OS can become Agentic, and if it does, what benefits I get from that? My spilchucker doesn't recognise "agentic".

[SCP]

Re: Hey, Mr Davuluri

I don't know if this is when it was invented, but it arises in Milgram's papers of the 1970's. The concept of "agency" is an aspect of philosophy so has a lot of writing - whether "agentic" was specifically used I don't know (not my area and I can't be bothered to look it up).

On a technology front, I did do some work (in a research programme many years ago - a company "Lost Wax" was involved) with Agent Based Design/Modelling looking into incorporating AI techniques into autonomous collective systems. So, it is not recently new stuff. I recall it being interesting stuff. I can't recall whether "agentic" was ever used.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Hey, Mr Davuluri

'agentic' is an anagram of 'utter bullshit'.

[Eric 9001]

Re: Hey, Mr Davuluri

I would settle for nothing less than a single version of windows that nobody uses personally.

[Blackjack]

Nowadays even having a modern Windows machine just for games feels like a torture.

[Mostly Irrelevant]

Could they just do the OS thing right? We don't need a bunch of extra features, we can download any third party apps we want.

[Paul Crawford]

Could they just do the OS thing right?

But then how would the whore you from advertiser to advertiser?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are people complaining?

I don't understand why people are complaining. I mean, I get that Windows and other Microsoft apps are pretty much bug-ridden crap, and that users didn't ask for AI, argentic, ads and all the other BS.

But the fact stands that the same users continue to stick with Windows and MS apps, and businesses happily pay for the shit show that is MS Office, Exchange and Azure/Entra. It's not that they'd have to, as alternatives exist for the majority of use cases, but clearly the pain points aren't high enough for these users to move.

Which means Microsoft does everything right, they cut down costs and focus on their own agendas while ignoring user preferences, knowing full well that the same users will support them no matter what.

[Mage]

Re: Why are people complaining?

There is a problem that a bunch of companies, that businesses are locked into, don't write cross platform. Often they don't write well at all and 1995 to 2005 supported Win9x better than NT and responsible for people having to be Administrator, and thus the stupid UAC etc on Vista and later.

Sage, Adobe, Payrolls, Stock, CRM etc.

Also Exchange and Sharepoint are awful, yet lock-ins.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Why are people complaining?

>Sage, Adobe, Payrolls, Stock, CRM etc.

Aside from Adobe, most of these have long moved onto being web based, so all the client really needs is a web browser.

As for Adobe, well, it's essentially the same as with Microsoft's wares: users are clinging to it in a kind of Stockholm syndrome, despite there being alternatives for most use cases.

> Also Exchange and Sharepoint are awful, yet lock-ins.

True, but again, there are alternatives, most of which suck less, but users still stick with the polished turds that are Exchange and SharePoint.

It's a bit like a spouse staying with their abusive husband.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Why are people complaining?

"Payrolls, Stock, CRM etc."

Back in my time we were doing those things on Unix servers. Before that they were on mainframes. Windows is not the only platform.

[ecofeco]

Re: Why are people complaining?

This.

They will complain but never change.

Stockholm Syndrome indeed.

[ComputerSays_noAbsolutelyNo]

They should rebrand it

Wh-AI-ndows

... micros~1 has been very much into rebranding anyways

[collinsl]

Re: They should rebrand it

Windows 12 will probably be called Microsoft 365 EntraOS or something stupid.

[ergethrtj6]

for how many years have these clowns been promising to get rid of windows control panel, and unify all settings into the settings app? (13 and counting)

based on that, we should expect a working agentic OS sometime around 20270

[Fred Daggy]

Was I a good doctor?

They have spent so long trying to be Apple, they forgot about being a good Windows.

[eswan]

Didn't you hear? They're getting rid of the control panel and now you'll just ask the AI to change your settings. Of course, the settings 'app' will remain until they get everything moved over. And the control panel will still be needed for certain 'legacy' settings.

[David 132]

Control Panel is a Johnny-come-lately newcomer.

Even on the latest Windows 11, go to ODBC Data Sources (32-bit) and start clicking around... various Windows 3.1-era dialog boxes and file pickers, clearly scarcely touched in the intervening 30+ years, are lurking there.

Plus, half of it is in Portuguese for some reason on my (US English only) system - "go figure" as they say, or should that be "vai entender"...

[DJV]

Re: Portugese

Yep, same on my Windows 10 UK Edition!

Palhaços!

[The Central Scrutinizer]

ordinary Windows users aren't asking for AI features, they just want an OS that's actually performant, reliable, and stable.

Ha ha ha ha . It's Windoze....

[ComicalEngineer]

The problem is ...

... That many users just can't see beyond Windows / MS Office / Exhange / Azure etc. From my experience many don't even realise that there are alternatives to MS.

Part of the issue is the MS have a critical mass of new users coming through all the time and another part of the problem is that the Linux world is too fragmented and many non-technical users are frightened to get involved. If the number of Linux distros was reduced and the number of confusing interface options similarly reduced then the Linux uptake might increase. In addition simplifying the install and making it easier for non-technical users to install and get using Linux out of the box would go a long way.

Obviously this would requre a concentration of effort from the disparite Linux groups - which isn't going to happen in my lifetime unfortunately. Until that time, and whilst Apple remains expensive, M$ will remain dominant.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: The problem is ...

Forget the experimental and enthusiast distros. There are a small handful of desktop distros and a small handful of server distros.

If you want to experiment with a desktop Linux distro for a couple fo days, do you know how much it will cost you? A couple of days of your time. You don't even need another computer to test it on providing you've got one with enough disk to spare to install it dual boot.

You could even try a couple of distros. See what the differences are and realise how similar they are. Discover that it's not so much a matter of vast differences, more a question of finding where you feel most comfortable, rather like deciding on your favourite pub.

Try it. It doesn't hurt. You can keep it a secret if you don't want anybody to know that you have.

What amazes me is the number of people who call themselves IT professionals who haven't even tried, as professional development, something that won't cost them money.

[David 132]

Re: The problem is ...

"You don't even need another computer to test it on providing you've got one with enough disk to spare to install it dual boot."

I venture that even that isn't necessary - these days, just grab a USB key of sufficient size and run the Live version of the distro if there's one available. No need to indulge in the chainsaw-juggling that is - despite all the modern safeguards - repartitioning a drive.

[Ianab]

Re: The problem is ...

With the current surplus of e-waste from the forced Windows updates, there is no shortage of cheap (even free) PCs that are perfectly capable of running Linux. Might have to spring for a new SSD if the old one was lost to "data security", but those are cheap for a small basic one, again plenty to run Linux on. Anyone "In the IT industry" will be able to find a cheap machine to play with.

[Bebu sa Ware]

Re: The problem is ...

"Anyone "In the IT industry" will be able to find a cheap machine to play with."

A local computer refurbisher was clearing its win10 casualties from the win11 invasion at AUD90.00 (<USD60.00) for i5 8Gb ram small form PC with 128Gb ssd — ideal for ffaffing around with unusual OS and distros.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: The problem is ...

It always seems to me that the live version isn't as performant as it could be. YMMV.

[theOtherJT]

Re: The problem is ...

...and quartz, of course.

Most people don't know that you can boot of a USB disk. I'd take a bet that most windows users don't actually know that it's possible to change operating systems. You buy a Mac, you get a Mac. You buy a PC you get Windows. What do you mean "Linux"?

There are far fewer of us than we think that know anything about how all this works.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: The problem is ...

"There are far fewer of us than we think that know anything about how all this works."

From what I regularly see here that would apply to a lot of people in the IT industry. I think Microsoft is banking on that.

[David Hicklin]

Re: The problem is ...

Big companies - I am talking global ones here with 100,000+ employees - are pretty much Windows through and through. It is deeply embedded in just about everything but they do have the advantage of Enterprise versions and all the active directory, policy settings etc controls that come with it.

It would take some of these turning away from Windows before Microsoft took any notice, Forget city councils and law courts, they are small fry and there are thousands of them.

To turn them is going to take something pretty cosmic, something so bad that it would threaten the companies very existence. And I am not talking about the malware groups - this would be something that Microsoft did to them.

Until this happens M$ is going to keep on steaming in the direction they want to as long as the sales & profits keep on rising and Wall Street is kept happy.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: The problem is ...

"To turn them is going to take something pretty cosmic, something so bad that it would threaten the companies very existence. And I am not talking about the malware groups - this would be something that Microsoft did to them."

Don't discount the malware groups and don't also discount that their effects, on further analysis, can be partly seen as something Microsoft did do to the victims.

There was a story on the Beeb site the other week about a reasonable-sized UK haulage firm - one whose name I recognised from seeing their fleet on the road - that was taken out of existence by malware and we have seen several large UK businesses severely hit this year.

It's not inconceivable that a few board members of some of these companies take a bit of time to reflect over Christmas and come back in the new year asking "How did this happen to us?" and really start digging. They then discover that being anything through and through is a bad idea. They discover that "Enterprise versions and all the active directory, policy settings etc controls that come with it" didn't prevent what happened. At that point some of their senior IT professionals are going to get asked some questions as to what they're going to do about it and if they don't come up with convincing answers (more of the same won't be convincing) the questions will get put to other IT professionals who can answer them.

How many high profile migrations by high profile victims does it take before a few other boards decide the time to go is before they get hit?

[Anonymous Coward]

"The team (and I) take in a ton of feedback.“

Great!

The dung truck will drop off its load at 3pm.

[Fara82Light]

Pennies

If the customers are really unhappy, they will take their business elsewhere.

After all the rhetoric, the claims and the counterclaims, the reality will be apparent in future consumer revenue figures.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Pennies

You're assuming that those who take procurement decisions have the skills to recognise there are alternatives (without being already swayed by expensive dinners), have not already locked in the organisation in a manner that will cost a fortune to untangle and actually care instead of ordering the minions to 'fix it' without listening to the arguments why that is becoming more and more impossible.

Fat chance, I'd say.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Pennies

I've already said this once in this thread: frog boiling is Microsoft's key competence.

[david1024]

Re: Pennies

When the folks get angry enough a successor will arise. Same as GM/Chrysler/Ford created Honda/Toyota/Nissan and they on turn created Hyundai/Kia.

For computers, IBM created MS, and we are waiting to see what's next. The shear volume of money and systems, I think, hampers movements these days vs the 80's/90's.

[Richard 12]

Re: Pennies

What actually happens is that people grumble for years with nothing really seeming to change.

Then suddenly, out of nowhere, everyone leaves and the execs are totally confused.

There are countless examples in every industry. Anyone remember what happened to MySpace, AltaVista etm?

[collinsl]

Re: Pennies

Anyone remember what happened to MySpace, AltaVista etm?

Something "better" came along in the form of FaceBook or blogger etc. What's the "better" thing with OSes right now?

As much as it pains me to say it it's unlikely to be Linux or the BSDs because they're too fragmented and difficult for entry-level people to get into. Apple has it's own system already and it's own market so it's not going to be that or it would have happened by now.

What does that leave us with?

[Richard 12]

Re: Pennies

It already is Linux, actually.

Linux is a single kernel ruled by the iron fist of Linus. There's no fragmentation there.

While there are a myriad of userspace and UI options, one already rules them all.

You almost certainly have multiple Linux devices in your home. You're likely using two of them right now.

If we ignore your router and stick to things with a GUI, Android has quietly eaten most of the consumer sphere, as well as a significant part of industrial applications.

The penguin was stuffed into a robot and took over the world. That might make a fun plot for a videogame, just needs a hedgehog.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry I just don't think there is any way back from this enshittified mess we're in right now.

People in power like Pavan Davuluri, and I would count the boards of any large company or politicians in the group not only are making this mess deliberately, but worse I think they really do actually believe the verbal diarrhoea they dribble daily. They are quite comfortable flipping between convienient versions of the truth and beliving it. The truth is whatever they are saying while they say it.

The major shareholders are the same group of people and under the same delusions.

If the AI bubble bursts I suspect the delusion is strong enough that they won't even see it as a problem, and as the shareholders are in the same dream state they won't push for change.

I feel like Roddy Piper wearing glasses in "They live" some days. So much right now is so obvously and palpably complete BS that I really don't understand why it's not called out. I wait for an 'Emperors news clothes' moment but I don't think it's ever coming.

[Doctor Syntax]

There's one person on this planet who may actually be changing this. Government and boards alike, outside of the US, seem to have grasped the idea of digital sovereignty and are slowly coming to realise that it might have to be taken seriously.

Odd how things turn out, isn't it?

[Oblivium]

Gobby and talent-free middle manager gets more gobby and talent-free on social media...

...to the shock of no-one who's ever met any middle manager ever.

MS doesn't and has never cared about their customers, except as a source of hassle-free income. It must be weird and disheartening to work as a kernel engineer at MS (assuming there are any left), knowing your creation is the bedrock for so much unwanted shoddiness.

[J P]

Back in the 1980s the MS economic model was ship fast, book revenue, move on to the next customer. Quality (and customer satisfaction) could take a back seat as the market was vast and unsatiated - a stark contrast to my Dad's firm, which also wrote operating systems for IBM machines but in a very different market; mainframes. They used to rent the OS out, primarily to blue chip (Fortune 500/FTSE100 etc) businesses, which meant their cashflow was pretty much bullet proof but with the quid pro quo that their software had to be good; rigorously tested, as lightweight as possible (they'd started in the 60s when every byte counted; I used to play with old punchcards as a kid) and crucially stable. Radically different approaches to both coding (product) and financials (business model); in each case, the one complemented the other and both businesses made lots of money for their shareholders.

MS have clearly got the memo about how a subscription model is better for long term cashflow, but seem not to want to engage with the customer satisfaction point. In the short run as a near enough market monopolist they'll cope, but in the long run they're weakening, rather than consolidating their position.

[scotty86]

"What amazes me is the number of people who call themselves IT professionals who haven't even tried,"

You're so right Dr Syntax. I'm an Electrical Engineer who's mostly written low-level software for a living (I'm also Founder/CEO of an Engineering firm). When I meet other supposedly experienced engineers or IT professionals in my job who haven't even tried to use Linux, I must say, I'm immediately suspect of their ability and knowledge in their field. I see that basic Linux knowledge / ability is table-stakes for most engineering jobs now as well as the cross-over into IT / infrastructure. It's basically 3 x as long to just "get stuff done" in Windows compared to an Ubuntu install. If I have 2 words of advice for any high-school pupil who's vaguely interested in IT or Engineering, it's "Learn Linux".

[Doctor Syntax]

I wonder if it starts out like this:

Kid is enthusiastic user of Spectrum, BBC, Atari or whatever.

Goes off to do CS degree

Emerges with all enthusiasm and curiosity knocked out of them

Goes into industry

[Dwarf]

Start with the basics and build out.

@scotty86 - Absolutely agree.

Then when they have an understanding of OS's, start to look at networking, so you can see how things flow across interconnected systems, then learn about security, by understanding risks and mitigation methods against those risks. There is plenty of meat in all of that to get people at least understanding the main building blocks and some of the real complexity.

Then, when they have the basics, start diversifying out to things like proper software languages, rather than the fancy-in-vogue language of the day, or resilience and scalability and recoverability.

My concern is that now everything is going down the route of software defined everything, people are forgetting that ultimately its electrons and photons whizzing around doing their magic.

I'd love to see any of the current generation get given a microcontroller with 64 bytes of RAM and told to write an app in Assembly language or C - to really drive home how systems work.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Start with the basics and build out.

Hiding the nuts and bolts under covers and removing access has been a trend in all areas.

Just look under the bonnet (hood) of most cars from the last 20yr and you'll not see an engine but a big plastic cover. The intent of that is to dissuade owners from doing anything themselves - "don't look here, this is not for you, this is magic, you must bring it to us [manufacturer] only we know the magic". Audi even bolted down the bonnet of its A2.

Software is the same we no longer have programs, we have apps. The controls to the OS are increasingly hidden or simply removed. Again the suggestion is "this is not for you, here be dragons, leave it to us we know best".

If you're a 'power user', (I dislike that term) then losing the ability to access the nuts and bolt to make things work the way you want, maybe the way you have refined over 20-40yr of using OSs, is incredibly frustrating. Especially when those that are saying "don't look, don't touch, it's not for you" don't seem competent in any way shape or form.

Playing with Linux is very liberating. It's fun to feel you've got your hands back on the controls again. Yeah it's not perfect but it's such a good thing to tinker with and get back in the way of changing things (breaking things, fixing things etc) to get them the way you want. And it's all free other than your time.

[david1024]

Fix the file copy features

Windows needs to be called xonfuse-ows. Where did it actually copy your file? And will it be there later? Was it reliably copied? How would you know as they hijack content to OneDrive and even command line tools are hoodwinked.

A prime feature of any OS is the ability to copy files. It is broken by design in win10/11.

But if all you want is something to watch cat videos and influencers with, I suppose win10/11 are a step up from android/iOS in that regard.

[steviebuk]

They really don't care.

"I've read through the comments" but we don't give a shit and will do as we wish and ignore all said comments, is what I imagine he thought.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: They really don't care.

Usual CEO sentiment - "we listen to our customers 'experiences' and we 'get' that you are finding 'challenges' with our product, but you're wrong, we're right and you're not shareholders that matter so nothing changes"

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: They really don't care.

"you're not shareholders that matter"

Once upon a time people also talked about "stakeholders". I suppose they stopped doing that when they remembered what could be done with a stake and hammer.

[[e-mail]]

Windows users "just want an OS that's actually performant, reliable, and stable."

Yeah but how does that increase Microsoft shareholder value?

[John_3_16]

Some are done complaining; waiting...

In the time since Win10 went EOL Zorin 18 OS based on Ubuntu LTS has had more than 1,000,000 downloads. 780,000 attributed to first time Windows users. I, myself, have had Zorin as my secondary OS for over 3 years now & will be converting to it 100% in Jan 2026. It is everything that M$ is not. And fully completes & satisfies all of my computing needs without spyware, AI intrusion or monthly breakage due to malignant updates.

Those still lingering to the very last vestigial of Win10 life support may see a never ending extension while Win11/12 continues to wander down the road of unusable updates & advances. Zorin OS has a future that is as bright as the current M$ OS situation is dim.

I never gave up on Win7 & will receive 3 more backdoor monthly security updates before the ESU updates for core 6.1 is abandoned forever by M$. That is why my move with Zorin 18 is scheduled for Jan 2026. I will go no higher than core 6.1 with M$ though many found satisfaction with Win10. That, too, is now on life support.

Just say'n...

[BPontius]

Microsoft, I hope your vision of agentic AI for Windows 11 bites you on your corporate posterior and bleeds profusely!!