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back to article Britain's policing minister punts facial recog nationwide

The government is to encourage police forces across England and Wales to adopt live facial recognition (LFR) technology, with a minister praising its use by the London's Metropolitan Police in a suburb in the south of the city. A CCTV camera against the UK flag UK's first permanent facial recognition cameras installed in …

  1. Wellyboot Silver badge
    Big Brother

    Move along people, No, this has absolutely nothing to do with digital ID cards.

    It's for your safety, think of the children, stop the perverts/criminals/boat-gangs.. did I miss any knee-jerk justifications.

    1. may_i Silver badge

      Yes, you missed the "If you're against this then you must be in favour of paedos/terrorists/illegal immigrants (delete as appropriate)".

      1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

        also if you're against this then you are racist.

        1. Jamesit
          Joke

          If you're against his then you have something to hide.

      2. Barry-NJ

        How about "if you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to fear"?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Giant spiders don't care whether you've done anything wrong.

        2. DancesWithPoultry
          Childcatcher

          I fear having to prove I haven't done anything wrong.

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      "did I miss any knee-jerk justifications"

      Terrorists.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Terrorist are so 2000's destruction of civil liberties and freedoms. We've moved on since then. It's them migrants here to steal your minimum wage job and food bank packages now. Wait till they introduce Shakira law and we all have to listen to Latin American pop.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      You should see the bots/clowns online praising it. Completely oblivious to what Digital ID actually is or will become. Biometrics as in face recognition will be central to it's workings. Palantir are drooling right now at the thought of all this lovely information and confirmation of identity.

      We are all doomed.

      1. Mike007

        Worth keeping in mind that most of the people on the internet live in a country where they have had mandatory ID their entire lives... And are confused why those people from the UK and US think it is a problem.

        In the UK people with no intention to ever drive still need to register for a DVLA ID card for practical reasons. Except, this database isn't very useful as an unofficial and not technically mandatory database.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          That's true. I've also explained to those people a few times the difference between a physical ID and digital ID. I control the physical ID. It's in my pocket and no one can take it away from me or stop me using it where I need to and what I need to use it for. They can but it will be through a court or some other mechanism that can be challenged. They can restrict or withdraw a digital ID whenever they want. They can do this by passing amendments that bypass the judiciary. For example: Been arrested? Automatic travel restrictions. Arrested for for anything involving alcohol? Alcohol ban. No judge decisions needed. Then there's the tracking but I don't need to go into that as we all know it will use location services.

          1. Blazde Silver badge
            Big Brother

            Been arrested? Automatic travel restrictions. Arrested for for anything involving alcohol? Alcohol ban.

            This sounds like a tedious if/then nightmare waiting to happen. Surely we can improve it with an opaque ML algorithm and have a lot more restrictions automatically decided?

  2. BebopWeBop Silver badge

    Inetresting use

    of the word nation. You mean England and (possibly) Wales?

    1. Blazde Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: Inetresting use

      Interesting use of the word 'inetresting'

      1. BebopWeBop Silver badge

        Re: Inetresting use

        Spilling not a strong pint before my furst coffeee

  3. luxor

    England & Wales is not Britain

    There is no policing minister of Britain. There is a policing minister of England & Wales though, but that ain't Britain.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: England & Wales is not Britain

      It's the only bit of Britain they care about in Westminster.

      And no-one cares about the other part of the United Kingdom.

      1. luxor

        Re: England & Wales is not Britain

        Oh don't I know it.

      2. Citizen of Nowhere

        Re: England & Wales is not Britain

        Parts; the other parts (at least until the cross-border poll).

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: England & Wales is not Britain

        The only bit of Britain they care about is Westminster

        FTFY.

        1. 43300

          Re: England & Wales is not Britain

          Well, London and the home counties anyway! Wales and The North are only of any interest to them at election time. The South-West is where they have a holiday home, but other than that it's of no interest (again, except for at election time).

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Just to be sure

    We’re also going to add facial recognition cameras to your telly.

    That way, we can identify you in the comfort of your own home/squat/hostel.

    You won’t even have to go outside to be a compliant citizen!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Just to be sure

      I believe there are some telly's (*) that do have inbuilt cameras. And goodness knows who has access to those already or in the future

      * I'm not fully aware of the current state of modern telly's having not bought one for about 30 years..

      1. DancesWithPoultry
        Black Helicopters

        Re: Just to be sure

        > I believe there are some telly's (*) that do have inbuilt cameras

        Strangely found in some hotel rooms pointing at the bed.

        These days, a small roll of insulation tape lives in my travel bag. Handy for bodge repairs as well as for sticking over any unwanted lenses.

        1. alain williams Silver badge

          Re: Just to be sure

          Strangely found in some hotel rooms pointing at the bed.

          That will be really interesting for them to explain what was going on when a child takes his/her clothes of before going to bed.

  5. KittenHuffer Silver badge
    1. Captain Hogwash

      Re: I think .....

      Several options available on that link. Did you mean the V ones? I hope not as that's what I look like.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I think .....

      That's going to be classified as Obstructing a Police Officer -------->

  6. Dan 55 Silver badge
    Black Helicopters

    Battle-tested digital ID/facial recognition

    Tony Blair who just can't keep his hands off the Middle East gets to run Gaza. -> Link

    His best friend is Larry who gives him lots of money. -> Link

    Larry will need a testing ground for his mass surveillance cloud servers and Tony running Gaza will let him have that. -> Link

    Quote from a certain Andrew Orlowski who may be familiar to the commentariat: -> Link

    The Government's digital identity system creates lucrative new opportunities for Oracle, a database company. It has already hoovered up major government IT contracts in recent years and will be in pole position to land future work linked to ID cards. Tony Blair is really just a salesman for the tech companies, and flies around the world looking for naive Governments who want to believe in magical solutions.

    The name of the fringe event at the Labour party conference mentioned in the article was the Tony Blair Institute fringe event. -> Link

    So when the UK rolls out digital ID the next step will be linking it to Larry's mass surveillance cloud servers which have already been tested.

    I didn't even need to set up a conspiracy wall for this one, there's just one degree of separation.

    Bemused Europeans outside of the UK who ask "Why can't the UK government be trusted with a modern ID system? We've got one and everything's fine", well it's because of stuff like this. The only thing that's saved the UK so far is government IT contracts repeatedly failing.

    1. Pascal Monett Silver badge
      Trollface

      Don't worry, I'm confident that this one will be botched as well.

      After having cost half a billion, of course. Friends have to get something out of the mess.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        I'm sure they'll be getting a nice tranche of personal data as well.

      2. StewartWhite Silver badge
        Big Brother

        Cheap at 10 times the price

        Only 1/2 a billion for a nationwide rollout? Given the inglorious history of government IT, we're talking at least 10 times that - probably more like £20 billion + a few loose coppers (pun intended).

        The only upside of this dystopian measure is that the government, Crapita, Fushitsu et al are so incompetent that it will take more than five years before they finally complete it. Mysteriously though, when us proles ask for it to help to identify the latest criminality from the Met these self-same cameras will have developed a fault for the relevant period of time.

        Whilst Starmer, Kyle, Cooper and their chums (I think that maybe the character list from South Park) like to imagine that they're creating 1984 on the ground, in reality it will be more like Terry Gilliam's Brazil or Carry On Dictating.

        Not particularly having a go at Labour although they do deserve it. Farage or Badenoch (who she?) would do the same.

        1. SundogUK Silver badge

          Re: Cheap at 10 times the price

          Well, we will find out about Farage in about four years time.

    2. elsergiovolador Silver badge

      Re: Battle-tested digital ID/facial recognition

      IT contracts repeatedly failing.

      What do you mean? Owners are laughing all the way to the bank at the stupid taxpayer paying the invoices.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Single-Issue Platform

    They're espousing all the benefits that *they* receive - or think they receive from this. When they advocate for a single-issue platform, there are of course no drawbacks whatsoever!

    Onward and forward! Toward the single issue platform! Probably sideways, backward, zigzag, and falling off the bridge else-wise though.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Single-Issue Platform

      The phrasing is important: "it has helped make many arrests", carefully avoiding the question of was the arrest lawful or at a higher rate than existing methods and what was the cost of the equipment/manpower deployed to achieve those arrests.

      There's also the question of whether the arrests were in the public interest (i.e. violent and dangerous criminals) or just easy targets for the statistics.

  8. I should coco

    In Dubai you are never not on a camera

    Apart from if its your own house or most hotel rooms.

    Leave the house/hotel room and you are on a camera. Every Brit LOVES Dubai no?

    So whats the issue?

    1. Adair Silver badge

      Re: In Dubai you are never not on a camera

      Clearly no issue at all. Everything is just perfect. They know what is best, and they are never wrong.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: In Dubai you are never not on a camera

      Are you permitted to cover your face in public?

    3. SundogUK Silver badge

      Re: In Dubai you are never not on a camera

      Every Brit LOVES Dubai? No.

    4. Hubert Cumberdale Silver badge

      Re: In Dubai you are never not on a camera

      "Every Brit LOVES Dubai no?"

      No. Personally, I think Dubai is part of a deeply disturbing totalitarian state that I have no intention of ever visiting.

    5. tiggity Silver badge

      Re: In Dubai you are never not on a camera

      @ should coco

      I'm one of those brits who despise Dubai.

      Myself (& partner) boycott lots of potential holiday areas on ethical grounds, Dubai (UAE being a place with heavily entrenched misogyny & other issues such as virtually no duty of care to migrant workers & thus high migrant death rates) is one of them. I never understand why UK women (specifically those not from an Islamic background and so would expect to be less culturally conditioned to being treated as far less important than a man) want to visit there & even more strangely live there. .. Though I am sadly aware that many brits do not care about what a country is "really" like so long as they get to experience an enjoyable holiday bubble, happily ignorant that is bears no relationship to what they would experience if not a privileged tourist.

  9. Joe W Silver badge

    How many of those were in error?

    "have used LFR to make 580 arrests"

    So: numbers, please. How many false positives?

    (apart from it being messed up it doesn't work reliably enough and at least over here does not deterr criminials)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: How many of those were in error?

      It's not the police's fault if those arrested don't get convicted.

      1. smudge
        Facepalm

        Re: How many of those were in error?

        It's not the police's fault if those arrested don't get convicted.

        But is IS their fault if they don't even get charged.

        Not everyone that Plod arrests ends up in a courtroom, you know.

        1. JT_3K

          Re: How many of those were in error?

          Also, it is their job to collate the evidence in a reasonable and timely manner, to respond in time to witness/interact when the opportunity arises and/or to behave in a professional manner when doing their role (not to waste time intimidating members of the public to no recourse). My experiences over 25 years would overwhelmingly tip to suggest the misalignment between arrest/summons and conviction rates just might have something to do with this.

        2. collinsl Silver badge

          Re: How many of those were in error?

          But is IS their fault if they don't even get charged.

          Unfortunately this isn't quite accurate - the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) are the organisation responsible in England and Wales for authorising charges against individuals, and on all too many occasions, despite a perfectly good arrest, voluminous and detailed evidence packet, and plenty of witnesses, the CPS will, for their own reasons, decline to prosecute. This can be down to a number of issues, some of which include (but are not limited to):

          1. The cost of prosecution is more than the "cost" of the crime (ex. petty theft, shoplifting, growing Marijuana for personal use etc)

          2. The backlog of court cases is too large so lower-level crime gets dropped to reduce it getting larger

          3. The suspect is already being tried for something "more important" so will likely get a conviction off of that anyway

          So sometimes it isn't the police's fault for a lack of a charge.

      2. Barry-NJ

        Re: How many of those were in error?

        Perhaps they're not convicted because they're not guilty.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: How many of those were in error?

          It's not the job of the police to decide who is guilty.

    2. Ken G Silver badge

      Re: How many of those were in error?

      And that was just among the pensioners at one pro Palestinian rally.

  10. Will Godfrey Silver badge
    Unhappy

    Every time I think it can't get worse

    Something like this pops up.

    I hate being wrong.

  11. xyz Silver badge

    Funnily enough....

    just bought a Chinese no name, exterior, solar powered, wifi router. Came with an eSIM built in and just connected to the internet when I switched it on, no harm, no hoo-ha.

    Bit easier than the bureaucratic hell of trying to activate a SIM these days. Great British wall or Great Chinese wall....mmmm. Well at least there's less chance of the Chinese police rousing me at 4 in the morning.

    1. Hubert Cumberdale Silver badge

      Re: Funnily enough....

      Now that is deeply troubling.

    2. tiggity Silver badge

      Re: Funnily enough....

      Indeed, your "average nobody" brit has little to fear from Chinese surveillance, but the same cannot really be said about that of the UK & it's allies.

      1. JT_3K

        Re: Funnily enough....

        It's not the """surveillance""" that concerns me, it's a potential backdoor/toehold in to my local network to use as a springboard if a situation deteriorated that does.

  12. smudge
    Holmes

    But how many people charged?

    At the time it said the two forces have used LFR to make 580 arrests over the previous 12 months.

    The number of arrests is meaningless. They could all be innocent people.

    What would be more relevant would be the number charged - on its own, and compared to the number arrested.

    The number convicted would also be of interest.

    1. G R Goslin

      Re: But how many people charged?

      That is exactly the case. An arrest without a valid conviction is valueless, but not costless.

    2. elsergiovolador Silver badge

      Re: But how many people charged?

      Come on, let police wank themselves blind over the arrrrrests. They desperately need a win.

      These cameras are a godsend for the idle bones. They can fart in the van whole day and eat cookies, only occasionally get a beep about suspect they have to check out.

  13. CorwinX Silver badge

    More people should read 1984

    Coming soon - new police division - the thought police.

    Good-Think, Bad-Think.

    Not sure if that's an actual quote but it's in the style of.

    1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

      Re: More people should read 1984

      police 1> Do you know why we stopped you today?

      pedestrian> No?

      police 1> We suspect you might have had unauthorised thoughts.

      pedestrian> Could you be more specific?

      *police people look at each other*

      police 1> He is not cooperating, James.

      police 2> Facial scan shows he is likely to commit crime.

      police 3> He?

      police 4> He has male genitals, have a look, that's from his last doctor's appointment. That's clearly a penis.

      police 2> Are we doing this again? Kristen, I just got a beep that *you* have unauthorised thoughts.

      police 3> Just looked at his partner's recent chat history with someone called Steve. That penis does seem inadequate. Can I see the picture again?

      police 4> FFS, have a look.

      police 3> Yeah, she is cheating on him and it's obvious why.

      pedestrian> What are you on about?

      police 3> Nothing to worry, it's okay to have a small penis.

      police 1> Ok, you are under arrest.

      pedestrian> But I have done nothing!

      police 2> You had unauthorised thoughts!

      pedestrian> What thoughts?

      police 3> You know exactly what thoughts!

  14. PhilipN Silver badge

    What is happening to the country?

    Some time ago young guy - OK a miscreant - was caught after 2 months because CCTV caught the registration of the (stolen) car he was driving.

    Honestly - young fellow can't boost a car to take his girlfriend out at the weekend without risking arrest? [Shakes head in disbelief}

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Just think of the opportunity

    Coming soon.

    “Life Record”

    - Your entire life, on camera, 24/7.

    - Full HD playback of your life from birth to grave.

    - Playback your favourite parts any time.

    - Multiple camera angles, slo mo, Benny Hill mode!

    1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

      Re: Just think of the opportunity

      Your life, narrated by Kier.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    What....No Mention Of Peter Thiel?

    ............or the STASI?

    Novi South, SW1?

    Hubble Road, Cheltenham?

    Wayne Couzens?

    David Carrick?

    Quote (William Burroughs): "The paranoid is a person who knows a little of what is going on."

  17. IanW

    Don’t know why they don’t just listen out for the signals every mobile gives off. Most Android phones can be happed 1:1. Even Pixel handsets and Apple devices don’t jumble up the identifiers if a data connection is active.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Facial recognition is limited by the image DB

    The fix

    National ID mandatory

    Weird that everyone complained about the Covid masks but we will all soon be wearing them to have a semblance of privacy.

    Funny the police now also have the power to ban face coverings ( for some )

    Dear Minister for the Stazi

    Just to be clear 1984 was a film about a world we do not want, it is NOT a hand book for government.

    Yours

    Innocent until proven guilty

    Queue the next LLM - minority report

    With the

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