Linux Mint picks up the pace with LMDE 7 and Wayland-ready Cinnamon

The Linux Mint team plans to speed up its release cycle and get two more versions out in the next few months. The latest Linux Mint Monthly News blog drafts the project's plans for the final quarter of 2025. At least in terms of timing, the timeline is somewhat bold – especially considering that the blog is titled "August 2025 …

[Anonymous Coward]

"Please don't theme our apps"

What the hell? So now they are trying to enshittify Linux the same way MICROS~1 did with Windows from 8 onwards? And the really expect us to go for this? Are they INSANE? That's bonkers! So theming makes their lives difficult? The poor dears. Well they can **** right off. We do NOT want Linux distros to copy the worst parts of Windows! We do not want 'human interface guidelines'. I want an old style Windows 98/7 theming, 3D skuomorphic icons and all the lovely UX things we used to have. I guess nobody's gonna go that far any more, but well done to Mint for at least stopping the worst of the rot.

[Liam Proven]

Re: "Please don't theme our apps"

> So now they are trying to enshittify Linux

Important note: that site is from 2019.

> the same way MICROS~1 did with Windows from 8 onwards

You... you just noticed?!

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: "Please don't theme our apps"

We noticed. We weren't happy. In consequence we avoid GTK-4 apps as far as possible.

In my own case pdf-arranger/shuffler or whatever it is now has been replaced by a Java application as its UI became entirely non-functional - it displayed a window but with no controls at all.

[m4r35n357]

Re: "Please don't theme our apps"

They really are a bunch of arrogant control freaks. Time will tell whether IBM will put up with paying them for this shit . . .

In the meantime, anything but Gnome/Wayland for me!

[phuzz]

Re: "Please don't theme our apps"

Hi Bob! Did you mean to post AC or just forget to login?

[bombastic bob]

Re: "Please don't theme our apps"

you mean me?

I'm just happy others are willing to say this sort of thing too. Sad that it is needed to be said.

2D FLATSO FLATASS non-skeuomorphic is UGLY and Adwaita STINKS on ICE.

[Grogan]

Re: "Please don't theme our apps"

I think libadwaita was invented to make styling difficult, to enforce their vain fugly defaults... I really hate that Gnome mentality. ("asking" distributors to stop customizing Gnome... or else they are going to remove the functionality)

[bombastic bob]

Re: "Please don't theme our apps"

yes

[Cloudseer]

Re: "Please don't theme our apps"

Windows 98, whose UX is the result of user testing and interface guidelines?

[nematoad]

A bit slow?

...in our testing, it was virtually indistinguishable from X11.

Ah! Damning with faint praise.

I thought that Wayland was the next greatest thing.

Well it might be, but it's taking a hell of a long time getting there.

[Kurgan]

Re: A bit slow?

It does the same things, lost its remote connection capability, and it required quite some years to develop. Basically it looks like a poor outcome for a deep refactoring. Years in the making, millions of man hours to adapt everything to it, and it's just the same but with some disadvantages:

- no network protocol anymore

- if it crashes, all the programs die with it (X11 can be restarted and everything else remains up)

Looks like a big improvement, eh? Quite like systemd.

[heyrick]

Re: A bit slow?

"if it crashes, all the programs die with it"

No no no no no, that's a toy.

[Fred Dibnah]

Re: A bit slow?

Are we discussing Wayland here, or IPv6? ;-)

[GNU Enjoyer]

Re: A bit slow?

>X11 can be restarted and everything else remains up

How do you do that?

In my experience, if the X server dies, then everything else dies.

Wayland has other disadvantages - many things that have worked fine for years Xorg do not work at all in wayland.

[ThatOne]

Re: A bit slow?

> In my experience, if the X server dies, then everything else dies.

In my many years of Mint use I've often seen the "Restarting X" message with nothing dying. Just the screen going dark for a fraction of a second. I might have missed something, but it seems to be able to restart gracefully.

[GNU Enjoyer]

Re: A bit slow?

I suspect the DE is doing some sort of reload without actually restarting X.

Investigating further, if Xorg crashes or restarts, all programs connected to its socket receive errors and respond to it by exiting (I guess a program could handle the error and wait for a new xorg server and connect to it, but none seem to).

But, with Xorg it's still possible to have clients persist and move between xorg sessions on different computers (or just the same computer) if you install a persistent X daemon like;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xmove?useskin=monobook

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xpra?useskin=monobook

If the persistent daemon crashes or restarts, then all the programs exit, but that is unlikely - yes, more functionality wayland lacks.

[bombastic bob]

Re: A bit slow?

Lets hope Wayland takes at LEAST another 20 years.

[Anonymous Coward]

GTK3 and the Gnome team........

Quote: "...restores support for GTK3..."

Well.....some of us still use and develop using GTK3/Glade.

I think GIMP3 is GTK3 based?

Some of us are OUTRAGED that GTK4 provided NO BACKWARD COMPATIBILITY with GTK3.

Some of us blame the autocrats at Gnome for this unbelievable arrogance.

Rant over!

[Liam Proven]

Re: GTK3 and the Gnome team........

> Quote: "...restores support for GTK3..."

You are missing *THE* key word.

«

It restores support for Gtk3 _themes_

»

That's all.

It does not turn Gtk4 into anything Gtk3 compatible.

I do not program myself. When I used to dabble, I didn't like C. I wrote one vaguely useful (to me) C code module, a tiny run-length-encoding compressor/decompressor for monochrome images. I decided I didn't like C and never really touched it again.

But what I have read around the edge of Gtk4, it drops many things that are core to industry-standard UIs.

As I've said in the article, I find many GNOME communications to be obscurantist bafflegab, and the GNOME team _does not like it_ when I say so. Several prominent GNOME team members blocked me on Twitter, back when Twitter mattered, including Emanuele Bassi, who was the author of the answer where that mealy-mouthed definition, "the building blocks of GNOME apps", came from. (I may have misspelled that.)

As a small example, Gtk4 does not support menu bars any more, because GNOME 4x apps don't have menu bars -- they have hamburger menus instead. (Use a screenreader, or want to get a quick overview of functionality in words? Yeah, fsck you.)

I think true title bars are on the way out too. Famously for about a decade it could not show file thumbnails in the Open/Save boxes. There are many examples.

Gtk1 is still alive and I've been talking with the maintainer recently. Gtk2 is still sort of alive and things in wide use are built in it.

Gtk3 is currently the dominant version. As you say, even GIMP 3, _the app for which Gtk was designed and built_, uses Gtk3.

I think it may turn out that most of the industry stays with Gtk3 and GNOME goes off on its own way with Gtk4 and the rumoured Wayland-only Gtk5.

As for the rest of your comment: well, yes, personally, I tend to agree.

[robinsonb5]

Re: GTK3 and the Gnome team........

Every time GTK1 is mentioned I'm reminded of just how hideous its file dialog was - and just what a dream it was to drive using the keyboard. Type "~" followed by the tab key - now you're in the home directory. Type *.jpg followed by tab and now you only see JPEG images.

I use the Gtk3 file dialog on a daily basis and it's a nightmare to use with the keyboard - the focus always seems to be in the wrong place, even though the text highlighting implied that it isn't.

I'd like to think that's improved in Gtk4 but I wouldn't put money on it...

[Liam Proven]

Re: GTK3 and the Gnome team........

> what a dream it was to drive using the keyboard

[...]

> it's a nightmare to use with the keyboard

I can't say I really noticed the looks of the Gtk1 or Gtk2 ones TBH, but yes, I find the GNOME 4x file dialog a nightmare for me as a keyboard user. 3 out of 4 times I end up searching for a file when I try to type a name.

I prefer something small and quick that works well, which is why I like Xfce. I don't care much how it looks. For me, functionality is at least 10x more important than appearance.

It seems to me that GNOME is the reverse. It looks great but I find the functionality badly lacking and keyboard control terrible.

It feels like using a phone UI on the desktops -- which of course for most people in the last 18 years (since the iPhone) _is the dominant computer use paradigm._

It feels to me that GNOME actively chose to build a desktop along the exact interaction model that killed Windows 8.

Very very odd.

Anyway, GNOME is big, it's implemented in Javascript running on a big pile of C code. It's got quicker in recent versions but it needed to. It's still much bigger than Xfce, say. Now, there's Cosmic, nearly ready for prime time, which implements the same UI but in more customisable form, in Rust code compiled down to native code. I still don't like the UI but I think GNOME is about to have a very rude awakening. It deserves it.

[heyrick]

Re: GTK3 and the Gnome team........

"It looks great but I find the functionality badly lacking and keyboard control terrible."

As somebody who is new to Mint and Cinnamon, I have noticed, particularly in file dialogues, that the filename is highlighted, but pressing keys causes other things to happen. Throughout most of the entire history of user interfaces, if some text was "highlighted" then typically typing would replace the highlighted bit with whatever was being typed. Until now, it seems.

Oh, and don't get me started on the "WTaF have they done to the scroll bars", or the fact that while that horrible click to jump behaviour can be turned off, it's apparently handled by the app and not the window manager as various apps implement the jumping, and don't bother to read the system setting to use the older scroll bar actions, so the end result is a mess where different apps work in different ways depending on what bit manages the scroll behaviour.

But, I can't complain too much. On my old notebook PC with a piddly little SSD soldered to the board, it works in a way far FAR superior to Windows 10.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: GTK3 and the Gnome team........

> It feels like using a phone UI on the desktops

As you say, or at least imply, this is probably intentional.

Thing is, even if it's merely accidental or coincidence, it's still bloody stupid. There is no One True Interface[tm] for the myriad different devices and systems and gadgets out there. Trying to make one is a fools errand.

You wouldn't use a joystick or a steering wheel to write a novel. Nor a keyboard or touchscreen to drive your average car.

Well, I wouldn't, anyway. So IMO trying to make GNOME (or whatever) "feel" like thumbing on a mobile phone is just doing it wrong.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: GTK3 and the Gnome team........

... Nor a keyboard or touchscreen to drive your average car.

Ever heard of Tesla?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: GTK3 and the Gnome team........

> Ever heard of Tesla?

Not when I can help it.

Besides, I said "your average car". Tesla is not that. In the wrong direction, supposedly, but I admittedly haven't driven one and don't plan to.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: GTK3 and the Gnome team........

SAAB did make a 9000 where there was a type of joystick for steering, a prototype for some European project called Prometheus. The joystick was not in front of you but to the side and meant in a crash you wouldn’t hit your head on the steering wheel etc. There is a very good reason it never took off, namely it wasn’t easy to drive with as was demonstrated by Jeremy Clarkson on the original Top Gear. Not your average car either but somethings should just be left alone.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: GTK3 and the Gnome team........

> GNOME is the reverse. It looks great but...

Frankly I don't even think it looks that great.

Give me a nice color palette and background, my favorite xterm fonts with yellow on dark/black background, and maybe an interesting screensaver or two just for fun, and I'm set.

I admittedly grew up on VT100 and such, so my tastes and perception probably run towards the mundane.

[Grogan]

Re: GTK3 and the Gnome team........

Very hideous, painfully ugly, but it was also very light weight and reliable. I quite liked GTK+ 1.x. I no longer have anything that uses it, so I don't have it anymore, but at the time you couldn't pry some of my old programs from my stiff, dead fingers. I still used old versions of gftp, xchat, sylpheed for years... by customizing the options and disabling features I didn't like/need I had programs like that down to around 300 kb.

I still don't even really "like" (but it's usable) GTK+3, and prefer GTK+2 whenever there is a compile option for it. GTK+4 is not allowed on my systems. If I can't compile around it (no GTK+3 option at compile time), I simply won't use the software. I especially detest libadwaita.

[NATTtrash]

Re: GTK3 and the Gnome team........

Perhaps that is the main issue with all this, no?

"...by customizing the options and disabling features I didn't like/need"

You being your own master, being used to "have the luxury" (apparently) to do that, and then running into "the new paradigm": "Please don’t theme our apps

Ah yeah, modern times...

Wow cancellation fee for early termination?

As if $20 a month for just illustrator isn't an overcharge to begin with, apparently they will charge you an $84 early cancellation fee.

Major kudos to Clem and his folks for "being old-fashioned"...

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: GTK3 and the Gnome team........

Upvoted for "bafflegab" on its own merits.

[druck]

Re: GTK3 and the Gnome team........

Gtk2 is still sort of alive and things in wide use are built in it.

Mint's MATE desktop was Gtk2, Gtk3 now but X11 only - and log may it last.

[bombastic bob]

Re: GTK3 and the Gnome team........

Can't upvote this enough

[Blackjack]

I like LMDE but my old video card does not.

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

a very easy way to run Debian

What's the point then ?

The point of Debian is to suffer, otherwise you would run Ubuntu

[bombastic bob]

Re: a very easy way to run Debian

The point of Debian is to suffer, otherwise you would run Ubuntu DEVUAN

Fixed

[Neil Barnes]

it seems to work fine these days

How does it work with stuff like Kicad? The stuff I've seen on the Kicad pages rather suggest it's 'not very well'... and that's a killer for me.

[Omnipresent]

Minty fresh

What mint is trying to do is unify linux, which the unix community hates.

IMO Mint is the most up to date unified version of linux. Mint tries to consolidate the operating system into something that the majority of folks can use. Take it or leave it. If you want a useful and modern operating system, it will have to be consolidated and unified in some sense.

[chuckufarley]

I am sick and tired...

...of fighting with my computers to get them to do what I want them to do. If the defaults are pleasing to the eye, the iscsi initiator mounts the targets before the processes that need them start, and it's still stable and and secure, well...I'll sell my mother for it. She pasted away a long time I'm afraid, but as a retiree I don't have a lot of liquid assets.