Californian man so furious about forced Windows 11 upgrade that he's suing Microsoft

Many are unhappy about Microsoft's Windows 10 retirement plans, but a California man appears to be angrier than most. He's sued Redmond over the matter, and is demanding continued free Win 10 updates until the OS's popularity wanes.  Complainant Lawrence Klein is identified in the filing [PDF] only as a California resident who …

[elDog]

We've been switching our members to ChromeOS or Linux

Most of them are just using their PCs as browser platforms and don't notice any big change other than stuff just runs a lot faster.

The Windows 10 extension is a nefarious scheme to keep people from finding other platforms. It also ties the Windows users much more tightly into the MS cloudy system.

And it's not "California is so furious...". Just one gentleman (I presume) who could be labeled a 'Californian'.

[CajunMoses]

Re: We've been switching our members to ChromeOS or Linux

Trying to win the Powerball jackpot will be a better bet than trying to win against MS. Unless someone's income is tied to running specialized Windows software that has no equivalent on any other OS platform, Windows 11 is little more than a great excuse for finally switching to either a Chromebook or a Linux distro. Switch to a Chromebook if you're willing to spend ~$300 to $500 for a nice one. And then enable Play Store and Crostini. Or, if you overwrite Windows with an immutable distro that uses the Wayland display server, you'll be able to essentially end up with the equivalent of a Chromebook, possibly a few additional features (like running a different browser or running containerized Windows apps), and a boot-up time that's 20-30 instead of 5-10 seconds.

[Marshalltown]

Re: We've been switching our members to ChromeOS or Linux

The big problem is simply that users of older laptops are told they need new hardware. I use Linux, so I'm not in the crosshairs of this. But my wife is. Microsoft worked hard for their semi-monopoly. They should pay for getting what they asked for. If the courts told them, "sure, we'll support your monopoly as long as it is a two-way street between you and your cattle," maybe monopolists might start to take things more seriously. They could accept that their users are people rather than "consumers."

[GNU Enjoyer]

Re: We've been switching our members to ChromeOS or Linux

Switching to GNU/Linux or GNU/Linux?

ChromeOS is Gentoo GNU/Linux with the freedom removed after all.

Why not write; "We've been switching our members to GNU/Linux?" - that would have saved you typing.

[Byron "Jito463"]

Re: We've been switching our members to ChromeOS or Linux

Because Chrome OS is - as you admitted - very different from other flavors of Linux. It's far enough apart from traditional Linux that it merits listing separately. It's like saying to stop calling Android "Android" and only call it "GNU/Linux". There's being pedantic and there's being obnoxious, careful which side of the line you're treading on.

[Anonymous Coward]

good luck.

Good luck.

We're all watching.

[Pascal Monett]

Re: good luck.

I do wish him luck.

Personally, given the money Borkzilla has in the bank, I would enfore support for all existing versions as long as there is still a single user using it.

When I am elected World Dictator, that will be one of my first decrees, along with the ending of all conflicts, free healthcare for all, respect and equality for women, and the building of Thorium reactors until fusion comes into its own.

[Dinanziame]

Re: good luck.

Honestly, this is a case where the US government would have good reasons to sue Microsoft for abuse of monopoly. They also have money for lawyers, and more importantly they have tanks.

[NoneSuch]

Re: good luck.

Monopolies have lots of lobby funds at their fingertips to buy politicians.

Or did you think corporations making billions and only paying $3.20 in tax was accidental?

Expecting corrupt politicians to fix political finance laws against their own interests is a noble dream indeed.

[Someone Else]

Re: good luck.

Honestly, this is a case where the US government would have good reasons to sue Microsoft for abuse of monopoly. They also have money for lawyers, and more importantly they have tanks.

They also have tRump, which clearly negates all those other attributes you mentioned. Seriously, in what world do you envision the Orangutan lifting a finger to strike down a monopoly play?

_{Besides, the DickTater-In-Chief is too busy using those tanks to move homeless people out of DC...}

[David Hicklin]

Re: good luck.

> I would enfore support for all existing versions as long as there is still a single user using it.

Legal requirement to Open source the code upon the ending of support ??

[AlbertH]

Re: good luck.

Legal requirement to Open source the code upon the ending of support ??

M$ won't ever do that as it would reveal the abysmal state of the code. It's cobbled together from various bits, often lifted wholesale from elsewhere, and is a miracle that it (sort of) works at all!

[Short Fat Bald Hairy Man]

Re: good luck.

THANKS FOR THE THORIUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jamie Jones]

Re: good luck.

> When I am elected World Dictator

Can I have Wales please? What do I need to do to get in your good books?

Blatant sucking up to you by talking about your great looks and sexual prowess obviously wouldn't work on someone as intelligent and generally gifted as you, so do you want money?

Give me Wales, and I'll pay you with an increase on taxes, and all the sheep you crave!

[Groo The Wanderer - A Canuck]

Re: good luck.

I'll only be watching out of curiosity. I'm off the Microsquishy treadmill for good.

[RPF]

*Cough* Windows 10 IoT Enterprise LTSC *Cough* About $15 *Cough*

[Anonymous Coward]

*Cough* Windows 10 IoT Enterprise LTSC *Cough* https://massgrave.dev/ *Cough*

[williamyf]

*Cough* Windows Server 2022 with Desktop Experience *Cough* About $35 on CDKeys or GVGMall *Cough*

*Cough* Download the ISO directly from Microsoft *Cough* Supported until early 2033 *Cough*

*Cough* Will pass any Certification *Cough* Regulatory *Cough* or (Cyber)Insurance *Cough* requirement an organization or Independent proffesionals may have/need *Cough*

[Anonymous Coward]

Nasty cough you have there.

I prescribe a Linctus.

Sorry, autocorrect; that should have been "I prescribe a Linux".

[williamyf]

If the software the organization wants/need to run is available in Linux, in a way that passes said regulatory, audit, certification and/or (cyber)Insurament requirements, then linux (which I started using in 1996 by the way) is a perfectl;y cromulent solution indeed.

But If not, I still vouch for WinSer22DE

[NoneSuch]

"Windows Server 2022"

So THAT is why 2022 has an XBox program pre-installed. Silly me thinking an Enterprise OS should have nothing installed by default.

My coat is the one with the moral high-ground.

[williamyf]

If You install Windows server SANS DESKTOP EXPERIENCE there will be no Xbox App.

My DeskTop Experience includes playing games.

My coat is the technically correct one.

[Robin Bradshaw]

Does setting the registry key HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\Setup\MoSetup\AllowUpgradesWithUnsupportedTPMOrCPU=1 and then opening the win11 iso in explorer and running setup.exe not still work to upgrade on unsupported hardware? Im pretty sure thats how I got win11 on this unsupported dell.

[GNU Enjoyer]

Please do not act immorally by pushing proprietary software

Part of the reason why the world is such a bad place is because people are being lead to using windows at every turn, rather than being lead to escaping most of the shackles by installing GNU/Linux.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not an option for 99% of Windows 10 users

If you install Windows Server 2022 on a PC that has Windows 10 on it, you'll lose all of your data, applications & user accounts. You don't get an upgrade, you get a clean install over the existing OS.

[Jou (Mxyzptlk)]

Re: Not an option for 99% of Windows 10 users

I never said upgrade, just use. If an upgrade from, for example, Win11 24h2 to Server 2025 would be possible I'd have done that on my main machine long ago.

[Jamie Jones]

Re: Not an option for 99% of Windows 10 users

Caught the anonymous poster!

[Not Yb]

Well... yes, you CAN sue in the USA for anything, as long as you pay the filing fees.

This at least gets Microsoft to notice, and some press coverage, even though the likelihood of getting very far in court is nil. MS might change something in favor of Windows 10 users... or not. Welcome to the US, the court system will be happy to take your money and tell you to go away.

[Gene Cash]

Re: Well... yes, you CAN sue in the USA for anything, as long as you pay the filing fees.

They don't tell you to go away... it's usually who can afford lawyers the longest.

That's why it's so "scandalous" that Peter Thiel bankrolled Hulk Hogan against Gawker, and Elon Musk bankrolled Gina Carano against Disney.

Edit: not originally a big fan of Peter Thiel, but putting Gawker out of business was awesome.

[LBJsPNS]

Re: Well... yes, you CAN sue in the USA for anything, as long as you pay the filing fees.

So you're good with people with way too much money putting other people out of business. May it happen to you.

No, I don't give a fuck about your opinion of Gawker.

[Not Yb]

Re: Well... yes, you CAN sue in the USA for anything, as long as you pay the filing fees.

Can you expand on why "putting Gawker out of business was awesome." please? It seems a bit of an over-reaction.

[elsergiovolador]

Compootition

If Microsoft was taking part in competition for the shittiest company, they'd easily get the brown medal.

[Jou (Mxyzptlk)]

Re: Compootition

but still holds the ?candle? to the darker shade called orcale...

[elsergiovolador]

Re: Compootition

Pooracle?

[Jou (Mxyzptlk)]

Re: Compootition

"I want to ride my Pooracle, I want to ride my p" no.

[seven of five]

Re: Compootition

Can you still use their name without incurring license fees?

(and Larry, if you read this: it was a joke. And I claim prior art, just in case...)

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Compootition

Well, yes, the Oracle of Delphi probably saw this coming and stole both Oracle and Delphi centuries before they became trademarks :-)

[Sudosu]

Re: Compootition

That which shall not be named.

[CorwinX]

Re: Compootition

I tend to use their alternate name Micro$haft.

Neatly indicates both the only thing they care about and their general attitude towards users.

[CorwinX]

Re: Compootition

Also...

Shouldn't competition authorities be sniffing around to look if there was any collusion between them and motherboard/chip manufacturers to force millions of unnecessary hardware upgrades?

Intel and AMD etc must adore 11's hardware requirements boosting their sales.

[LVPC]

Re: Compootition

There is no forced upgrade.

If the machine is working fine today, it will be working fine a year from now unless you are doing something stupid, like not having backups, opening random emails, or going to questionable websites.

It's not like Microsoft updates are all that safe to begin with. Re-enabling stuff that was supposed to be permanently disabled by group policies, removing existing functionality, adding crap nobody asked for ... why the rush to update?

The only reasons to stay on 10 are (1) software or hardware not supported by 11, (2) games, and (3) convenience. Tried 11 twice, it's not happening here.

Getting enough points to get a year of free extended support is easy if you also use your computer for gaming. Launch the Xbox app, launch a game from the app, play for 10 minutes, get 10 points. It was easy to accumulate 10,000 points. But I probably won't use them for anything. Not even extended support.

As for my Linux box, it will probably be swapped to one of the BSDs. Too much cruft and drama in the Linux world nowadays. And a few (imho) bad design decisions.

[dmesg]

Re: Compootition

What with Recall and all the nudges/shoves to use M$ cloud stuff, might I nominate Micro$lurp, at least as an alternative to use when appropriate?

[NerryTutkins]

I upgraded my desktop, which doesn't have TPM 2.0 or a supported processor, using some unapproved "hacks". This was not difficult, didn't require any geeky coding, just downloading a couple of tools to create appropriate installation media on a USB drive that would bypass the various requirements.

So much as I think suing Microsoft is a bit over the top, they really could give people with unsupported hardware a much easier way to keep those machines running that would almost certainly work for most of them. Dumping Win 10 users into either paying for support, or going without security updates, is a stupid idea. And I suspect it will come back to bite Microsoft.

[The Oncoming Scorn]

I installed W11 on my "new"* PC about 2 years ago, no TPM 2.0, usual Rufus workarounds, so far so hoopy.

Now the desktop PC motherboard has a plug in option for a TPM 2.0 module which for about $C23 & as a spur of the moment I decided last week lets go for it.

Motherboard & Windows 11 detected it without issues & allowed a seamless update to W11 24H2.

I don't know if it's the update or the sudden additional resource or both but my i9 PC (Intel(R) Core(TM) i9-9900 CPU @ 3.10GHz, 128 GB, 2Tb NVMe SSDs mounted on the motherboard) suddenly became a lot more responsive.

I realise this isn't going to be the case for everyone, but I've managed to install W11 on a range of personal devices including a HP T510 (Thin Client) using the various workarounds.

* E-waste rescue!

[williamyf]

If the rocessor of that machine was a 9th gen, you did not even need the TPM module, and could have saved the CAD$ 35. Just a Firmware update to the mobo to unlock the PTT function, basically, TPM 2.0 on the UEFI, perfectly cromulent for Win11.

[PCScreenOnly]

23h2

Give that a go for more speed

[williamyf]

Re: 23h2

Win11-23h2 will go out of support in november this year for home and pro. enterprise and education will go out of support in Nov 2026.

So nope, s/he better stay in Win11-24h2, or move to Win11-25h2 a few months after it lands.

[williamyf]

If you have a supported processor, you have TPM2.0 too* , in the form of fTPM (AMD) or PTT (intel). Basically, just a (free as in beer) Mobo firmware update from meeting the TPM 2.0 requirement. No hardware module needed.

The problem of using RUFUS (or any other means) to install Win11 on unsupported processors (as most/all supported ones do have TPM 2.0) is not for us home users. Is for independent professionals, or companies, that need to satisfy certain certification, auditing, compliance and/or (Cyber)Insurance requirements, as this is an unsupported configuration, and therefore, does not cut mustard in those environments.

Ditto for IoT LTSC 2022.

Even thoug I am a home user, and not subject to said requirements, I am Going to the WinServ22-DE ** Distro, pay ~U$D 35 for a key, skip all the drama, and be supported until early 2033. I'd recommend people subjected to these requirements to follow suit.

JM2¢

YMMV

* Unless you have an Intel Mac with an 8th Gen Processor but not a TPM 2.0 but a T2 only, whitout the PM and without the .0 ... like I do.

** A play on Linux Mint DE, which is what I install on VERY underpowered laptops (think 32bit only laptops).

[M.V. Lipvig]

Nah, went Mint, and now wondering why it took me so long to switch.

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Being sensible for a moment

I know, I know - I'll say three Hail Marys and a Systemd

Microsoft keeping Win10 alive means them paying workers to 'fix' an OS that they sold you 10 years ago.

Is this the same as a car company still making spare parts for a 10 year old car? Or is it the same as insisting that the dealer gives you free upgrades to meet new safety or emission standards ?

Are the "security fixes" fixing flaws in the original product or are they adapting to newly invented threats ?

[Joe W]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

Most of the things are flaws in the original program. That nobody found them until now does not matter. And this holds for any software. What are most flaws? Stack overflows, memory leaks, out of bounds writing, SQL inserts, directory traversals - and that's just the things I remember from the last two weeks, I'd say. You know, things we have been worrying about for a long time.

And Win10 has been released to the public in 2017. That's only eight years ago :) (c'mon, let me nitpick)

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

>And Win10 has been released to the public in 2017

It feels much longer. Perhaps the 7->10 transition was so seamless they blurred in my ever fading memory...

[David 132]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

It was actually 2015; just over 10 years to the day ago.

And if you've blanked out the whole "gwx.exe" nightmare, with Microsoft using dark patterns and "are you sure you don't not want to not decline the opportunity to accept this upgrade, oh you clicked the X button, that must mean YES PLEASE INSTALL 10" shenanigans, then you're not alone.

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

Yes Microsoft are evil, I remember back in the 2000s when they told customers of our Linux app that they would be sued because "Linux was stolen"

But is there a reasonable limit to how long you have to support an OS? We used to pay a fortune in maintenance contracts for VMS. Should I expect HP to now provide free security patches?

[David 132]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

Dunno why you downvoted me (if it was you?) because in my comment I didn't express an opinion one way or the other on whether MS should continue to support Windows 10.

Although for what it's worth,

a) I don't think it's reasonable for them to continue to support it after 10 years; operating systems aren't cars or washing machines or houses (the usual consumer goods offered as comparison for warranty purposes), for the principle reason that what you use a PC for changes over its lifetime, from word-processing to gaming to virtual reality to generative AI, and so the hardware must change and evolve too. Whereas a washing machine, say... well, on the first day you use it, you put clothes in and expect them to come out clean, and 10 years later, you're still putting very similar clothes in and expecting the same outcome. Washing machines don't have to evolve to handle, say, 5-dimensional virtual hypertrousers, or underpants that explode if rotated, or clothes that take the form of a 9x4x1 black monolith.

b) But equally, the hardware requirements for Windows 11 do seem to be artificially high for no other reason than to say "fuck you, we can't be bothered supporting older stuff any more". I will never again take any of Microsoft's environmental sanctimony even vaguely seriously. "Windows Update will schedule updates for when your local electricity is carbon-neutral"... yeah, right, after the mountains of e-waste that their actions have created, that's the green-washing equivalent of "no whipped cream on my jumbo extra-thick lard milkshake please, I want to be healthy".

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

I suspect well see the last of the "everyone has to update" cycle where Msft/Intel and Dell/HP all get to break out the champagne every 3 years

With MSFT making all the profit from subscriptions and cloud I wonder how long they will bother writing an OS instead of just making an Edgebook

PS no I don't bother down voting anyone

PPA " 5-dimensional virtual hypertrousers" is a great band name

[Joe W]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

I think I saw them back in the 90s during a festival in Germany?

[David 132]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

They weren't as good after Brian Eno left :)

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

The trousers split ?

[Homo.Sapien.Floridanus]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

they split because they couldn't get a leg up...

[tango_uniform]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

or underpants that explode if rotated,

My wife was reading this over my shoulder and said, "So THAT'S what I've been doing wrong!"

[tiggity]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

@David 132

A lot of people do use a PC for same old stuff year in year out, so for the average home user a PC is just liek a wasjho9ng machine - doing same old, same old.

e.g. email, web browsing, music / video streaming.

As for gaming, that is quite a niche market - hardcore PC gamers will regularly update hardware anyway, most "gamers" I know are using consoles (far less grief than PC gaming as you know a game will work on a particular console spec, whereas with PC I soon learned* gaming always treat the minimum requirements for a game as very dubious as if you had near min requirement spec PC then the game will be mega sluggish & barely playable)

* The reason I switched to console based gaming as having dependants mean ceaseless PC upgrade cycle for gaming was not a viable option & got sick of games claiming to run on my PC spec but actually were horrendously slow

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

Agreed, and when you look at the "benefits" touted for having TPM 2.0, most users have no need of most or all of them.

[Joe W]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

Dang.

I sort of lost a line there. 2017 was EOL for the first Win10 version for home (and business) users. Sorry, me stupid. I feel suitably embarrassed*.

So, really 10 years ago. Ok. Wow. I still remember the hype of Win95, and the guys who built a rocket with fins from Win95 install CDs. The past, a different country.

* "The hot feeling beginning with an M, as Death said (in the book Mort, I think).

[David 132]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

Mort, indeed. Death's interview with a job agency.

WHAT DO YOU CALL THE FEELING OF BEING VERY SMALL AND HOT?

Keeble twiddled his pencil.

“Pygmy?”

BEGINS WITH AN M.

“Embarrassing?”

“Yes,” said Death, I MEAN YES.

[Jamie Jones]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

YES!

This is what seems lost on some people. We're not talking about new features, but bugs and security updates.

We still have "fit for purpose" laws here in the UK, and I'd argue that whilst it may not have been noticed immediately, a security flaw or other bug does render the product "not fit for purpose"

Or to put it another way... If the product was 100% secure and bugproof from the outset, no-one would be complaining of lack of support moving forwards. Why should a company be rewarded for their own mistakes?

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

Yeah, but, you are not buying a product. Only a licence to use it. Or so the Ts&Cs would have us believe. The rare occasions licences and/or Ts&Cs have been challenged in court, they are invariably "resolved" with an out of court settlement because no licence holder wants their terms examined and scrutinised by a court and likely have whole swathes of it voided as "unfair" or "unbalanced".

[Gene Cash]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

> Microsoft keeping Win10 alive means them paying workers to 'fix' an OS that they sold you 10 years ago.

No, it doesn't... Win11 didn't come out until 2021, which is not 10 years ago. You could still have bought Win10 in 2022, which by my calculations is only 3 years ago.

[rafff]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

"Are the "security fixes" fixing flaws in the original product or are they adapting to newly invented threats ?"

Software is different from hardware in that there is no wear and tear. If the software is susceptible to an attack now, then the flaw was there from day 1. In other words, you were sold a defective item. It makes no difference if the attack was known on day 1; the flaw was there.

Whether in UK law you can sue for consequent losses or only for the amount you paid for the software, I dunno. IANAL.

I have in the past used this absolutist position to get updates for a buggy compiler. For home users the magic words are "Sale of Good Act" and Merchantable quality".

[Missing Semicolon]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

If the flaw was not in there on day 1, they introduced it in a patch themselves, that you had no choice about installing. So they are still liable.

[notyetanotherid]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

... not since 2015 when the Sale of Goods Act 1979 was mostly superseded by the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

[Benegesserict Cumbersomberbatch]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

What did TPM 2.0 add to the fundamental security of an OS that 1.2 did not already achieve? It was new, and its rollout coincided with the most recent ISA extensions which requires a user to upgrade hardware.

Not so much complying with the latest safety and emissions standards, more like defining "all 4 wheels must be on the road at the same time" as a safety standard.

[SuLegato]

Re: 2.0 added more more

TPM 1.2 was designed with a on/off switch and single root encryption key to target.

[Kevin Johnston]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

The Car Company analogy does not fit here as other companies are able to make pattern parts which (if you pick the right company) will be as good or even better than the original and which you are free to fit if you are out of or do not care about the warranty. For Windows 10 there is nobody able to produce patches or updates as they would need the keys and magic account needed to implement the update. In addition, Microsoft have the weight of the law preventing people from even attempting this because of IP/Copyright etc etc

[Elongated Muskrat]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

My car was manufactured 15 years ago, and I have had recent cause to replace all the suspension springs on it, as well as replacing the cam belt and water pump at 100,000 miles. If the manufacturer of this car had told me that it was no longer supported, and that road springs were not available, and that they would not provide a new cam belt, after a mere 15 years, and I have to buy a new model, then I would rightly have cause to complain about this.

The car analogy really doesn't work in your favour in this argument. I can expect to keep it running until something fails catastrophically on it, that is not economical to fix, such as a blown head gasket, or a severely rusted chassis.

Similarly, I should be able to keep a PC running with the OS that I paid money for, as long as something doesn't fail catastrophically on that PC, such as the motherboard chipset melting. Like a car, I can replace individual parts as they reach EoL. Since I have been smart with the components most likely to fail, and bought decent quality ones from a manufacturer that offers a lifetime warranty, if something like one of the RAM modules fails, I can get it replaced. I have had this happen exactly once, by the way, in the last 30-odd years of owning and using PCs.

Again, like the car analogy, I might choose to buy new at some point, but that's a choice based on ageing hardware, not an OS one. Also, as with cars, we have pretty much reached the point in the development of PCs that any improvements are incremental, a new car offers an engine with pretty much the same performance as a 15 year-old one, and things like processor speeds and the cost of RAM in a PC have pretty much plateaued for several years now. I won't be buying a new PC just so I can use the latest Windows (my PC supports Win11 anyway, so this is moot), just as I won't be buying a new car just so I can use the latest built-in sat-nav, phone integration, or fancy HUD.

Microsoft's attitude towards no longer servicing Windows 10 is akin to a Ford deciding that garages can no longer service cars older than 8 years. I can understand main dealerships doing this (who in their right mind gets their car serviced by a dealership anyway), but if they inflicted this on my local garage, there would be a hairpiece from Hades (Hell toupée).

[Orv]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

In general in the US car manufacturers are obligated to provide emissions-related parts for ten years. Anything after that is gravy, and anything not emissions-related is technically not required after the warranty is up. Usually they make parts for ten years and then everyone's just relying on old stock until it runs out. One of my cars is 30 years old and most of the parts are no longer available, unless there are aftermarket copies of them.

[Stu J]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

..."that they sold you 10 years ago"

No... Windows 11 didn't come out until October 2021, so I suspect there were still computers being sold "new" with Windows 10 on as little as 3 years ago.

[Helcat]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

Windows 10 was introduced with the promise it would be the last Windows you'd need: They would simply patch and improve it going forwards, so this was the OS to see you through to the end of times.

That was the promise. That was why Win11 wasn't well received: It was proof that M$ had lied (big surprise, but... they don't normally make it that obvious).

Now, had they said they'd still support Win10 going forwards, and Win11 was for new and interesting things (such as VR and AI and all the other 'new' stuff that's being pushed) THEN it would make more sense: We, the customer and user, would have our OS of choice: Win10 without all this new 'tat', or Win11 with all the new 'shiny'. As long as both could run the same software: Who'd care?

But now: Have to go with the latest junk from M$. They're fulfilling their promise (not!) after all.

It's like mobo manufacturers: They produced a chip/socket set that was 'future proof': All we'd need to do is swap the CPU and we'd be fine! Ha! How long did that promise last? But they still keep making these promises... so perhaps it is time to sue them: Make it clear that if they promise something and break that promise: They WILL be held accountable.

So good luck to the guy with the lawsuit: I honestly hope it gets to court and he wins.

[chris street]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

Is this the same as a car company still making spare parts for a 10 year old car? - I can still buy parts for my eighteen year old car, that went out of production 12 years ago - and thats from the OEM not some third party knockoff

Or is it the same as insisting that the dealer gives you free upgrades to meet new safety or emission standards ? - I've had a recall notice last week land, to fix an issue that is safety related. Free of charge on a car I bought nearly 2 decades ago.

So yes - I would expect MS to support a commonly used platform they have made money from that isn't that old.

[Someone Else]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

Is this the same as a car company still making spare parts for a 10 year old car?

Yes. Next (stupid) question?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Being sensible for a moment

[Looks at my 10-year-old Toyota]. Damn right, Toyota still makes parts for it. And Toyota still issues free support for older cars. I haven't had one for my car recently, but SWMBO's 15-year-old Toyota got some free love from Toyota two years ago, so that's free stuff on a 13-year-old car.

Which make do you drive that lacks support? Hint: Toyota seems to be of the opinion that their stuff is good and probably won't break... and that a good way to make sure that when their stuff finally wears out, the old customers buy a new Toyota is to make damn sure to support the old cars for a Very Long Time. Perhaps you might consider buying a Toyota.

I used to, repeat, USED TO, drive Fords. There is a reason why I no longer do.

[mickaroo]

Virtually Painless

I enabled Secure Boot and TPM 2.0 on my Windows 10 Virtualbox VM, and M$ instantly attempted to install Windows 11.

Without asking if that's what I wanted. Of course...

[neilo]

Considering that Microsoft said that Windows 10 was the last version of Windows (https://www.theverge.com/2015/5/7/8568473/windows-10-last-version-of-windows), I can kind of see his point.

[JoeCool]

Given the historical monopolostic practices of ms and the pc industry, i can see his point.

[Bump in the night]

last version?

Good point. That's true Win10 was predicted to be the last. But I'm also glad they never made good on the threat to make Windows as a service.

[Elongated Muskrat]

Re: last version?

But I'm also glad they never made good on the threat to make Windows as a service.

MIcrosoft Azure has joined the chat.

[Mitoo Bobsworth]

More money than brains

Although I'm sure his lawyers won't tell him that.

[Jou (Mxyzptlk)]

If you REALLY want Windows 10, run Server 2019

That is the last version which uses the same core as Win10 (1809). Updates until 2029. Or run Server 2022, still the same UI, but robocopy /iorate and smb-compression and nested-V for AMD. I run the latter on a few low end devices, 'cause it does not need much space, not much RAM, even as non-core install, directx/directdraw are easily installed, done. Less resource hungry than Windows 10 let alone Windows 11.

[williamyf]

Re: If you REALLY want Windows 10, run Server 2019

Agree 107% with you, that's actually my plan in a couple months time

Bootcamping on a MacMini 2018 with 6 cores. I am ditching the machine circa Nov 2028, but I do not want to deal with MASSGRAVE hoopla, and do not want whomever inherit the machine dealing with that either.

I'll see (at that time) if it is possible to triple boot (unsupported) MacOS Taohoe, WinServ22DE and Linux Mint DE for the future hand-me-down owner

[has been]

Re: If you REALLY want Windows 10, run Server 2019

Note that if Server 2022 doesn't support audio over Bluetooth.

Means I have to use a Raspberry Pi to listen to the BBC Home Service on my sound cancelling headphones in the workshop, because the domestic server won't talk to them. Dunno If I could get a USB/Bluetooth dongle to work. Haven't bothered yet.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: If you REALLY want Windows 10, run Server 2019

Means I have to use a Raspberry Pi to listen to the BBC Home Service

Have you no wireless set with long wave, dear boy?

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: If you REALLY want Windows 10, run Server 2019

It's a crystal Raspberry Pi

[Neil Barnes]

Re: If you REALLY want Windows 10, run Server 2019

Last I heard, there was _one_ remaining spare valve for the long wave transmitter...

[Michael Strorm]

BBC Radio 4, World Service, 198 kHz, Long Wave blah

While the valve that transmitter (*) needs isn't the sort of component you'd pop in and get off the shelf from Tandy or Maplin's (**), from what I've read, it wouldn't actually be all *that* impractical or prohibitively expensive to obtain a replacement. If they *really* wanted to, that is.

The truth is that they've been wanting to shut down the 198 kHz long wave service for some time anyway- the valve required for one of the three main transmitters it uses is simply a convenient excuse.

Also, associating it in peoples' minds with the problems of long-obsolete technology will likely- and equally conveniently- rub off on perceptions of the LW service itself.

They'll shut it down anyway, regardless, I just think they'll want to minimise complaints from the stereotypically vocal and conservative Radio 4 audience who can- and will- complain if the LW version is shut off. Even if most of them are listening on FM, DAB or online, and don't actually use it (***) I suspect they'll want it to be there anyway.

I think that the only reason it hasn't already been shut down- and they'd originally planned to have done so by now- is because it's also used for the electricity meter radio teleswitch signal, which the power companies haven't been able to replace in time.

(*) Parent post is, presumably, referring to the 198 kHz LW service *within* the UK (one of whose main transmitters relies on a valve that is no longer manufactured). This is mainly for BBC Radio 4, and only transmits the World Service overnight after Radio 4 has shut down. I assume that some people outside the UK can receive this, but I don't think it's intended for that- there are numerous other frequencies that versions of the World Service are transmitted on across the world, but I've no idea if any of them are also LW.

(**) Even if both of them hadn't both shut down years ago.

(***) Seriously, how many people *are* listening to it on LW nowdays? I couldn't find specific figures, but it can't be many. Most new radios in the UK don't include LW any more (many don't even include MW). That's most likely because the only UK service that uses it (i.e. Radio 4) is available elsewhere. But I also wonder if they're reducing the power, because last time I checked, I could barely receive it on LW anyway.

[PhilipN]

Re: If you REALLY want Windows 10, run Server 2019

BBC Home Service - you mean there's still a Two-Way Family Favourites, Listen With Mother and Music While You Work? Or was that the Light Programme?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: If you REALLY want Windows 10, run Server 2019

I think they were on the light programme, if my RAM has not got corrupted over the years. Which was actually on long wave.

The home service, or radio 4 as the young hipsters call it, didn't move to long wave until fairly recently in 1978.

And there are several valve rebuild companies around the world who could rebuild the valves if the BBC so desired.

Not that I am suggesting they are using the valve situation as an excuse to end the service or make the government come up with some money to continue with the national emergency broadcast service, for which very few people now have the means to receive.

[Neil Barnes]

Re: If you REALLY want Windows 10, run Server 2019

I think the plan was to close down long wave at the end of June, but searching suggests that didn't happen. I'll have a chat with the boys who know these things next week; try and find out of there's a revised plan.

There doesn't seem to be a reason to supply what most people can't actually receive... but they've had so much flak about shutting down /sounds for overseas listeners that they've had a change of mind at least partly on that front.

[Licensed_Radio_Nerd]

Re: If you REALLY want Windows 10, run Server 2019

The Teleswitch service (Economy 7) is controlled via the 198 kHz transmitter. There are still thousands installed around the UK, with a bulk in Scotland who are struggling to be switched to "smart" meters due to the lack of a suitable 4G signal. The BBC appears to be wanting to close 198 based on low audience figures and the power it takes to transmit the signal. They could have easily back-ordered replacement thermionic valves several years ago. They chose not to! Their Net Zero zealotry ignores the amount of juice that is required to power the swathe of analogue FM and DAB transmitters that try to provide the same coverage that Long-Wave offers. With the push towards VoIP and the loss of the POTS lines, the next major power-outage/disaster in the UK will see people completely cut-off from any form of emergency comms - except those of us in the Radio Amateur community who are more prepared.

Back on Windows 10 - I run Rocky Linux 9 on my desktop, servers and laptop. I also run VirtualBox as I have to maintain a copy of Windoze-something to support those annoying software packages that are Windows or Mac only. iTunes in a prime bug-bear - given that MacOS is based on BSD. How hard would it be to release RPM and DEB versions? RT Systems software provide programming software for a range of radios - Windows/Mac only. And Yeasu's firmware updaters and their Wires-X software are all Windows only, which is annoying, as the update mechanisms do not always play nice through the VBox serial interface.

We have also hit another issue where Microsoft have deprecated the driver chip used in the older Yaesu SCU-20 USB to serial cables. You either have to kludge the old drivers on to W11, or purchase a new cable. The official replacement from Yaesu is stupidly expensive, so most are sourcing clones from Ali Express.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: If you REALLY want Windows 10, run Server 2019

> There are still thousands installed around the UK, with a bulk in Scotland who are struggling to be switched to "smart" meters due to the lack of a suitable 4G signal

In Scotland, smart meter connectivity is via Arqiva long-range radio, not 4g. I don't doubt for a moment that they are struggling to get all the Economy 7 people on to smart meters, but the reason is not to do with 4G availability.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: If you REALLY want Windows 10, run Server 2019

> "the national emergency broadcast service, for which very few people now have the means to receive"

Exactly. I've seen people on YouTube suggesting that the UK government should keep it going because it will be required in an emergency.

The obvious problem there- as I pointed out- is that virtually no new radios on sale in the UK bother to include LW nowadays and haven't for some time. (*) It's pretty useless to have a service few can receive.

If the government *did* want to use 198 kHz LW as an emergency service, it wouldn't be that big a deal- in terms of infrastructure, they just keep the existing service going and/or repurpose it. And since AM is ancient tech, and cheap to implement, price shouldn't be an issue.

But since LW has disappeared from most modern radios, it would still require a deliberate effort on behalf of the government to push availability of sets that included it again. Either as an expected feature on ordinary sets or via special "emergency" radios. Which are apparently a thing in the US, where they have specific bands for emergency services.

(Anyway, this is all academic as the government clearly *doesn't* want to keep it going and would have shut it down already if it wasn't for delays relating to the piggybacked "teleswitch" electricity meter signal.)

(*) Since the demise of Atlantic 252, Radio 4 has been the only UK-oriented service on LW, and that's widely available in higher quality on FM, DAB and online. So I doubt many are bothered about LW.

[Jou (Mxyzptlk)]

Re: If you REALLY want Windows 10, run Server 2019

I checked, and you are right. For Server 2022 bluetooth audio and miracast are missing. I never noticed :D, everything else bluetooth works normal. Well, you can steal the drivers from Windows 11 21h2, but I don't use bluetooth audio anyway on those devices. And Miracast has a bad picture quality anyway.

It does work with Server 2019 according to the internet. Can you test with Server 2025 while you are at it?

[Tron]

Um...

What is this 'forced upgrade'? Does MS take control of your system and upgrade it?

Just keep your third party anti-virus up to date. There really is no financial incentive in hacking random individual users. And W10 becoming unsupported will protect you from Windows upgrade fails, which are far more likely than you being targeted by a hacker.

[williamyf]

Re: Um...

Miscreants have hacked random individual user's routers to ammass a botnet.

Now imagine a botnet composed of machines with vastly more resources than a punny MIPS processor, and you see just ONE (of many) financial incentives of hacking random individual's unpatched Win10 machines.

Whether it will happen IRL or not, reamins to be seen.

[LBJsPNS]

Re: Um...

See mickaroo's post above about MS attempting to automatically upgrade...

[Michael Strorm]

Re: Um...

> "Does MS take control of your system and upgrade it?"

Yes, as others have noted elsewhere, that's *exactly* what they do.

I mean, this isn't even new. They were already doing that ten years ago with Windows 10. (Link goes to the sleazy tactics they were using to force W10 onto peoples' machines, even when they'd asked them not to).

Are you unaware of all this?

[Jou (Mxyzptlk)]

Re: Um...

They even upgraded Server 2022 to Server 2025 for a very short time due to a "misflag" in the optional windows updates, and if you had WSUS configured to auto-approve the optional as well or had that flag in your Windows update settings....

[DS999]

I'm sticking with Windows 10

I only use Windows about 0.1% of the time, Linux is the only thing installed on my desktop but my laptop can dual boot. That way if I run into something that requires Windows (one of those used to be PDF fill in forms but once Firefox started being able to do that that was one less use for Windows) I can run it.

Since I use it so rarely, and don't leave it running, I really don't think it will make any difference at all whether it is kept up to date on security patches. Indeed, I'm looking forward to the cessation of security fixes as I won't have the annoying waiting period when I boot into Windows before I can actually use it where it runs at a crawl with the fan going crazy because it is downloading and installing updates!

Even if it gets hacked I'll just restore the image from a backup. I don't permanently keep any files on it I care about so that's a simple solution.

[Bill Gray]

Re: I'm sticking with Windows 10

> ...I won't have the annoying waiting period when I boot into Windows before I can actually use it where it runs at a crawl with the fan going crazy because it is downloading and installing updates!

I feel your pain. I have one Win10 machine, used maybe once a month. So it's always frantic to get updates.

It has wired Internet only, with the jack reasonably easy to access. I plug it in when I need to download something, the CPU and fan go wild, and then I unplug. (Not a universal solution, of course! I can do it because my only use of that machine is to compile some of my own code with MSVC and test it on 'real' Windows, after having compiled on Linux with MinGW and tested in Wine.)

I've an even less-used WinME box (some of my code has to be tested on 'older' Windows). There, I have to copy files via USB drive. But if I did hook it up to the Interwebs, at least it wouldn't immediately phone home to Redmond and decide that updates and telemetry were what it really ought to focus CPU power on.

It's sad to think that at least in some ways, the disaster known as WinME has upsides relative to Win10.

[gaston]

Like to see the Right to Repair weight in

It is Microsoft right to drop support anytime they agree to as long as they don’t have a contract stating otherwise. So:

1. How long before Microsoft declares EOL for Windows 11? That should make a hardware/software upgrade decision easier.

2. If Microsoft is going to “abandon” Windows 10 then why not turn the code over as Open Source? I’m sure a lot more security vulnerabilities will be discovered and some of them may get fixed by “the community”.

Then again maybe Windows 11 is just a reskinned Windows 10 with hardware prerequisites and enhanced surveillance capabilities.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Like to see the Right to Repair weight in

> maybe Windows 11 is just a reskinned Windows 10 with hardware prerequisites and enhanced surveillance capabilities

There is no "maybe" about it.

[williamyf]

Re: Like to see the Right to Repair weight in

Windows 11 WAS mostly (but not all) a Re-Skin of Win10 with higher hardware pre-requisites, and a bunch of security stuff turned on by default on OEM machines.

But now, more than 3 years latter, has diverged enough from current Win10 to be considered different.

[Benegesserict Cumbersomberbatch]

Re: Like to see the Right to Repair weight in

Don't forget the AI shite. Not that they're not retrofitting that, too.

[David 132]

Re: Like to see the Right to Repair weight in

Nuh-uh.

As part of the new Windows development process, every single line of the Windows 10 codebase was carefully examined, and Microsoft's finest minds asked themselves, "how much more evil can we make this line as we go to 11?"

And the answer in most cases was: none. None more black evil.

[Boris the Cockroach]

Re: Like to see the Right to Repair weight in

2... dream on

If they open sauce windows 10, we'll be able to see how much of it has been 'borrowed' from the open sauce folks without adhering to the various open sauce licences. and how much of it harks back to the kludgefest of windows 95.

And someone would be able to make a better version of windows than m$ puts out....

[williamyf]

Re: Like to see the Right to Repair weight in

The code for NT 4.0 leaked. Some discovered things were:

The code borrowed from opensauce was used in respect of the relevant licenses. For example, FreBSD code on the network stack.

There was not much Win95 code on the NT codebase.

There was swearing all around.

Most likely, the reason MS will not release the windows source code until the statute of limitation passes is that there is code inside that microsoft licenced from third parties and that they are not sure if anyone will sue for copyright and/or patent infringement, wether the lawsuit has merit or not.

i.e. too much legal risk, for no reward

[GNU Enjoyer]

Re: Like to see the Right to Repair weight in

>NT 4.0 leaked. Some discovered things were:

>The code borrowed from opensauce

NT 4.0 was from 1996, which predates the existence of "open source" - that was only a thing since 1998.

>MS will not release the windows source code until the statute of limitation passes

Why would microsoft ever release the source code?

Despite all the claims that microsoft released the source code of MS-DOS, but if you actually look at the repo, it's very old versions and you'll find many binaries without source code.

>anyone will sue for copyright and/or patent infringement

I really doubt microsoft in the past ever more than temporarily put anything into their software that restricts what they can do (they only want to do that kind of thing to others).

microsoft holds a massive amount of patents and if anyone tries to sue them for patent infringement, they go; "Well that's cute, but we have this patent and this patent and this patent and this patent that covers the general idea of your products and we can go back and find more - why don't you withdraw the lawsuit and instead we cross license?" - the end result is more patents for microsoft's big patent pile - the house always wins the patent gamble.

[Someone Else]

Re: Like to see the Right to Repair weight in

And someone would be able to make a better version of windows than m$ puts out....

Yeah, just think of how much fun the WINE folks would have...

[GNU Enjoyer]

Re: Like to see the Right to Repair weight in

microsoft will never release the complete source code to windows and microsoft does not do free software (as far as I can tell, microsoft has never released free software - there's always binaries without source code (whether that's part of the software, or needed to build it), proprietary terms sublicensing MIT expat and/or a dependence on proprietary libraries).

In the past (ending at windows 10) microsoft did not infringe copyright of free software, as they knew the copyright holders would be lining up to sue them - there's a reason window's license terms contains an exception for the LGPLv2.1 & LGPLv3, allowing for reverse engineering to debug modifications of such libraries.

There likely isn't much code left over from windows 95, but certainly is code that implements flaws from windows 95.

From windows 11 and onwards, it applies that microsoft has been copy-pasting from a bunch of weak licensed software via magical "AI" that definitely learns from the code and comes up with something new (spoiler: LLMs can only possibly output combinations of the input).

>And someone would be able to make a better version of windows than m$ puts out....

Copyright forbids more than trivial modifications without a grant or license authorizing modifications and regardless - you cannot take a massive pile of terrible spaghetti code and make it better - best you can do is copy the least bad parts out and throw the rest away.

A functionally better implementation of windows already exists - it's called ReactOS - although that primarily focuses on support for proprietary software for XP and window server 2003 - eventually it will gain support for later software as it and WINE improves and will likely reach a state similar to how "Free"DOS currently is a complete replacement for MS-DOS.

Lets be real - all microsoft software is a dumpster fire - if all copies of it was deleted, the world would be a better place.

Therefore, any further work on it, or to support it actively harmful - it would be better even if everyone did nothing - but if someone wants to improve something, they should make improvements to GNU and related software to fix the remaining freedom bugs and take it to functionally better than every OS in every way (it's currently only at functionally better in most ways).

[williamyf]

Re: Like to see the Right to Repair weight in

There are a few things I know for sure:

* Win11 will get AT LEAST 10 years of support since release date (May 22) or even more than ten years (see WinXP).

* Of those, at least 5 years (or more) will include new features and added functionality (what is called standard support). The rest will be security patches only (what is called extended support).

* Previous assestment notwhitstanding, Microsoft MAY backport some features from Win12 to Win11 after the main support phase is over, at Microsoft's discretion.

* Win 11 MAY have an ESU (See WinXP, Win7 and Win10) prolonging security-only support for up to 3 years, charging some fee. In that case, special consecions will be done for education and individual users.

* But then again, Win11 MAY NOT have an ESU (see WinVista and Win8.x).

* There will NOT be a Windows 12 until the Hardware requirements change so much, that it makes sense to change the number to better communicate the users the increased HW requirements. Say, an NPU being mandatory, or a huge jump in RAM to host the AI models said NPU uses are examples of possible changes that demand a change of number. Also, a mass wipe of supported processors, as processor makers retire driver/security/bug patching support for older SoCs (say, APU, for example), firmware and PCHs would be a cause to change the number from 11 to 12.

* If the HW requirements changes are small, incremental, or optional, then it makes more sense for Microsoft to keep the Win11 moniker, and give ISVs the illusion of a bigger uniform ecosystem for coding and supporting.

[FirstTangoInParis]

Re: Like to see the Right to Repair weight in

If you manage a fleet of Win11s with whatever MS call their manager tool this week, you’ll see it’s called version 10.0.2xxxx. Win10 is 10.0.1xxxx. So yes it’s reskinned and wrapped in hype.

[Anonymous Coward]

Meanwhile, over at Apple

2 months after the launch of Windows 10, OS X 'El Capitan' was released.

If you'd taken the opportunity to buy a shiny new Mac at the time, you'd have found that the latest supported OS you could use was macOS 12 'Monterey', launched in 2021.

As of last September, macOS 12 is unsupported. Do I hear the macOS users gnashing and wailing? No, they just queue up to hand over their hard-earned.

Meanwhile, the Dell Latitude that I bought in 2011, while still physically going strong, will reach the end of its Windows road in September after 14 years. It'll live on with a Linux distro when I get around to it.

[Elongated Muskrat]

Re: Meanwhile, over at Apple

One of the many reasons I have never liked Apple (not that this is an endorsement of Microsoft either), is their planned obsolescence, as well as their history of deliberate hardware incompatibility which allows them to charge extortionate prices for peripherals.

If I own a computer, I want to be in charge of it, thank you very much. I'm not keen on Microsoft doing this either, but at least my PC can dual-boot other operating systems, and there are technical means to eliminate the worst of MS's excesses (*cough* Pi-Hole *cough* Local accounts, not "cloudy" ones *cough* disable AI bullshit *cough*)

[Pirate Peter]

this proves its all about a data grab

" you get this year free if you use Microsoft Reward points or sign in with a Microsoft account and sync your data to the cloud"

so basically "give us your data to scrape and we will give you another year of win10 updates"

[Nematode]

I feel sorry for those who don't understand computers but are afraid of evil internet nasties wrecking their computer or demanding ransoms. They will gobble up the Windows-10-isn't-safe-any-more and Windows-11-is-secure messages, and buy new if needed. When the reality is that all of the things you shouldn't do in W10, or 8, or 7, or XP, or 3.1, you also shouldn't do in W11, and the basics you should do you should also do in W11.

Me, I can't wait for them to stop slinging updates every 35 days (which is short enough when you ask to delay updates when the damned things take over an hour to install). Unless someone is going to write malware that will only activate once my entire backup cycle going back ages includes it, I am pretty confident with staying on 10. Still got a router, still don't visit dodgy sites, still won't open dodgy emails, still take backups (daily autobackup), still backup data separately from the OS, etc etc.

[Persona]

Precedent

If he wins that would open up Android to litigation. I believe Android 11 now has a market share < 10% but 12-15 all have shares above this. Google dropped support for 12 in March 2025 making vendor patches unlikely. I suspect patches for most phones running 13 are somewhat rare too.

[Nematode]

Re: Precedent

Still hanging on to Android 7.0 on my Samsung fondleslab, which Samsung refused to update many years ago. Still works, though disabling the Play Store stops it freezing from time to time. Some apps don't work any more but the browser gets those web sites, and in fact I use web rather than app if there is one. Paranoid about app privacy? Moi?

[Anonymous Coward]

The last version ever?

Didn't Microsoft claim on the release of W10 that it was going to be the last version of windows, for ever and ever (amen)??

Having recently moved to W11 due to a system failure, I find it is a *little* nicer than W10 (but that isn't saying much) and much worse than Windows 7.

Interestingly going from a 4th Gen i7 to a 14th Gen i5 with DDR5 memory, has not improved real world performance much. I have no doubt the brain dead gamers are happy though.

If I had my way, we would all go back to W2K, or even better DOS 3.21, well maybe not, that would be too much like Linux.

As for the court case, as with others I wish him luck, mainly because W11 will likely be abandoned quickly to force some other arbitrary requirement that no one wants or needs.

Considering it's influence on society worldwide, Microsoft is in need of some oversight (and responsible management)

[ChrisElvidge]

Windows 10

As the release date of Win11 was September 2022, before that you could only get Win10.

So 10 years support of Win10 should be from August 2022, i.e. August 2032 not 10 years from first release - July 2015

[williamyf]

Re: Windows 10

In sept 2022, 99.999999%* of users got windows through an OEM.

Since 2018, the minimum requirements microsoft had for OEMs were such that all machines sold after 2018 can be upgraded to Win11. At most you need a firmware update, and re-configure your firmware options.

If you or so.eone dear to you bought new-(very)-old-stock, or bought a retail licence to install Win10 on very old hardware, well, we are sorry for you

Also, suport lifecicles from release and not from last sale are prevalent in the SW Industry since VMS years, and includes not only microsoft but also slowlaris, sunOS, RHEL, Ububtu, HP-UX, SuSe, et all.... (All except SuSe I used at some point in my career)

* Blantant exageration to get the point across

[Norman123]

And now for something completely different:

Upgrading to windows 11 from Windows 10 on older laptops.

Why owners of older model laptops which have more power and memory than some of the new model laptops are not able to directly upgrade their windows 10 to windows 11? More tech savvy individuals are able to bypass this restriction and install windows 11 despite MSFT trying to force people to buy new laptops. My Dell Alienware with 12 GB of RAM and one TB of ROM cannot upgrade to Windows 11. I wonder if someone with much more information than this senior citizen can relay this issue to Mr. Gates tech gurus to give us a patch to upgrade to windows 11 or keep servicing windows 10 for a few more years.

Please don't force sales.

[williamyf]

Re: And now for something completely different:

Dear Senior citizen:

Gates has NOT been CEO at microsoft for a LOOOONG time, he ceded the ball to ballmer, who in turn ceded it to a guy Nadella. So it is Nadella's tech gurus now.

The question is:

What processor does your alienware has?

After the launch of Win10, a new threat emerged, called "Driver Hijacking" or "bring your own insecure driver". In that threat model, say nVIDIA submited a driver to microsoft, say version spring 2016. Microsoft ran the automatic verification tools, and the driver passed and was signed. A few years later, say 2018, some security researches discovers a flaw in said driver, and the driver is patched in the Fall 2018 version. You update the driver dutifully. Since the driver is signed, if a miscreant trick you by social engineering, or by chaining vulns, to revert the driver from the fixed Fall18 to the insecure Spring16, you are toast, because many drivers live in Kernel Land...

To protect against this NEW thread model, there are some useful set of instructions called HVCI, introduced in 4th gen intel. But these impose a performance penalty of between 0% and 40% (15-35% in real world scenarios). To combat this performance effectts, another set of things called MBEC were introduced in 7th gen architecture....

So, if your processor is < 7th gen, ¿How does microsoft explain to other senior citizens who are lawyers, MDs and CPAs that the new windows has a 15~35% performance penalty?

And if you are on <4th gen ¿Do you think microsoft wants to handle the PR blow if there is a massive security incident that could have been prevented by the use of HVCI?

Then, there is greed. Microsoft and Intel and AMD want to save on support costs. Processors need microcode updates (rememeber meltdown and spectre), firmware updates and and driver updates (the intel iGPU you use when Optimus power saving kicks in is one of many examples of needed drivers). Well, 7th gen processors can go into 6th and 7th gen mobos, meanwhile, 8th gen processors go on 8th and 9th gen mobos. ¿Guess what intel said when microsoft came asking about long term support comitment for Win11 from intel?.

So. Performance not whitstanding. ¿What processor Gen your Alienware has?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: And now for something completely different:

<< Then, there is greed >>

T H I S ! ! !

[HMcG]

What we really need is fro Microsoft to be broken up. Split off Winodws OS from all the other Microsoft products as a seperate company, with sufficent operating capital to continue security updates for 10 years. Make the rest of Microsoft just another volume licensee, paying to license the OS for all it's cloud and virtualisation products. which itself would almost certainly guarantee future funding for the OS development. At the same time legally require software, like any other product, to be fit for the purpose it is sold for.

This would in effect be similar to how how BT* in the UK was split up, if we draw a comparison between the OS and the national communications infrastructure. BT Openreach, the infrastructure provider has made far faster progress in upgrading the UK's broadband to fibre than was ever going to happen before the breakup.

* the privitised national telephone carrier, with a pre-established effective monopoly over telephone and broadband services.

[stiine]

...

where did that article go?