FreeBSD 15 installer to offer minimal KDE desktop FreeBSD 15 is coming, maybe at the end of this year – and along with other improvements, it may finally offer the option of installing with a graphical desktop. penguin jump Three ways to run Windows apps on a Linux box READ MORE The latest status report from the project to improve FreeBSD's support for running on laptops …
@herman
What's your secret?
I'm posting this off OpenBSD 7.7 and would not describe the 'speed' (depending what you mean by speed) as screaming fast. Its ok and much better than it was back around 5.4.
(I agree about the Installer. It *isn't* a TUI but takes the form of a dialogue with sensible defaults)
Back on topic: Fully working KDE core with SSDM (I'm assuming) configured and running sounds nice. Icon.
> OpenBSD is much easier to install
You are delusional.
That is a flat lie. No it is not. It's a bloody nightmare. Only someone so soaked in Stockholm Syndrome that they've not seen reality in a month would think its *abomination* of a partitioner is usable.
In the real world, real people dual-boot. In the real world, if you run a specialist OS like this, you may well need Windows _and_ Linux. Triple boot that with OpenBSD and come back and tell me it's easier to install.
You can basically hold the enter button down to install it, no? Seems pretty easy to me.
As for installing, the real power comes from its simplicity, i.e via serial on RPI, NanoPi, Beaglebone, SunFire V210 and many others, the installer is vastly easier than the alternatives. The installers provided by alternatives often *can't* do it so that they instead have to provide "pre-made" images instead.
I feel that what we look for in terms of "user-friendlyness" might be vastly different to one another.
> You can basically hold the enter button to install it, no?
*NO!*
In my last review, I did a detailed analysis of the problems. If it's unreasonable of me to expect commenters to have read my own reviews when debating a subject I have written about in some depth, then I am unreasonable.
https://www.theregister.com/2024/10/10/version_76_openbsd_of_theseus/
I was with you until dual- and triple-boot.
I've never done that for systems I use on a regular basis. Not even my daily driver laptop.
Even at various $JOB, IME people in the computer lab tended to use whatever the system was booted into, and if it wasn't what they wanted, they simply went on to the next one. So systems tended to be booted into 1 OS and stay there, while the other OS(es) tended to age unused on the disk.
I'm not saying people shouldn't dual-/triple-/quad-/whatever-boot if it suits their use case and work needs. Have fun with that.
I am saying I'd personally rather run a VM or emulator or something along those lines if I need a different-from-booted OS occasionally.
Similarly, if I really must have a locally-installed different-from-my-preferred-OS system on a regular basis, e.g. because I simply can't make do with the tools and apps of my preferred OS, and $EMPLOYER says-so, I think I'd rather just have another system for it.
Slower, I believe.
The best installed among the main BSDs is Dragonfly in my direct experience.
But among the remixes and so on as well, it's Ghost BSD.
Before discussing their relative virtues, I submit you _must_ install all of these _in multiboot scenarios_. Anything is easier if it's the sole OS. That means you learn nothing from single-boot setups. You only learn by challenging it and breaking it.
* FreeBSD $current-release
* OpenBSD
* NetBSD
* DragonflyBSD
* GhostBSD
* MidnightBSD
* NomadBSD
Nomad is special because it does not install so it can't dual boot. However, in my testing, on >1 machine, only the first boot works. After doing the setup wizard and update, it never booted again. Twice in a row. On different boxes.
This illustrates why more than a 5min play in a VM is necessary.
Seems like a lovely idea to me. I've tried out GhostBSD on a couple of machines. It installs a reasonably nice desktop by default, and (on the few machines I tried) everything but WiFi Just Worked. (Other commentards have reported more difficulty.)
I'd think that if FreeBSD was set up to allow installing KDE, it wouldn't be all that much of a leap to having it install others (including XFCE, my usual choice... several of my machines, and my mother's desktop and wife's laptop, run XFCE).
I've been quite fond of Linux over the last ~15 years that I've been using it. I'm not as vigorously opposed to Wayland or systemd as many of my fellow commentards, but have yet to see a case where they really helped for what I'm doing. As best I can tell, they solve problems I don't have.
The lack of WiFi support has caused Ghost/FreeBSD to be relegated to my wired machines. If WiFi worked, I'd probably try a BSD as a daily driver on my laptop.
Might be worth looking at FreeBSD 14 now. Some significant updates on the WiFi front in recent weeks. My Intel WiFi chip set was so poorly supported, 50-100Mb/s was about the limit. Ethernet dongles (multiple different ones) did weird stuff, possibly related to USB drivers that limited me to about 500Mb/s and would even crash if copying more than 4-5GB at a time.. The new WiFi drivers give me a reliable 450Mb/s, which is acceptable[*] to me. And there's more work ongoing, so looking forward to further improvements.
Most data transfer on the laptop is from t'internet, and my ISP connection is "only" 120Mb/s anyway :-)
Thank you. I expect to be giving 14 a try. Various of Liam's fine articles have been quite encouraging about WiFi progress.
In the past, the problems I've had with FreeBSD and WiFi have not been with speed; they have been with getting it to work at all. My ISP connection is quite slow ("only" 120 MB/s? Luxury!), and I expect to be limited by that when at home.
With many more new users joining the fray, Linux is becoming too mainstream ... and too easy. Everything just works now. Where's the pain, the challenge? Only through suffering do we reach enlightenment.
But I still need my system to be workable as a desktop; a curio system that 'sits on the shelf' brings no satisfaction in the same way that a 'kit car' that isn't roadworthy is a waste of effort.
FreeBSD with KDE Plasma might now become the 'happy place' where I can suffer just enough and still have something to show for it.
FreeBSD has never been difficult, and the installer has had options for a GUI for years. In fact, FreeBSD is refreshingly straightforward and consistent to manage, especially compared with the myriad of Linux distros each doing things differently. Installing software packages has also always been reliable, not least because the ports approach keeps whatever you want to install separate from whatever the system needs. There have been several iterations of tools making this even more user-friendly and requiring less compiling.
But the lack of commercial developers has meant a lack of drivers for modern notebooks with all their multimedia stuff. Not relevant for sys admin work, but still nice to have.
KDE (and the QT library it runs on) is a good base for a multimedia desktop.
> FreeBSD has never been difficult, and the installer has had options for a GUI for years.
Oh drop the disinformation.
It's been difficult since 1993, and there are zero options in the installer for GUI support. You will note I have reviewed it enough times that the FreeBSD Foundation invited me to EuroBSDCon, where I met the kernel team and explained all the problems I encountered, and had the project lead shame-facedly admit that my reviews told them about things they'd never even imagined.
> FreeBSD has never been difficult, and the installer has had options for a GUI for years.
I literally installed FreeBSD 14.3-RELEASE on a metal server for the lab yesterday. And this is far from my first time.
So I'm pretty familiar and comfortable maneuvering around the FreeBSD installer, but even I find some of the steps a bit clunky.
E.g. the disk partitioning tool could be better, and I say this while not even doing anything fancy with multiple disks, zfs, mirror, raid, and so on. Just UFS on a single system disk. But if I want to make partitions beyond "/" and "swap", I need to arrow around the fields, [Backspace] or [Delete] default values, know what the syntax is for filesystem type ("freebsd-swap" or "freebsd-ufs" etc.), [Tab] down to the controls to save/next/whatever, etc. I don't do it every day but I've done it enough that it comes back to me pretty promptly, yet it's often an "oh yeah, this part" moment at the start.
Still, the FreeBSD installer has been making slow incremental progress over time. I like it more today than I did back in early days, and for a server install, even over slow serial console in a pinch, it's functional.
But there's no "options for GUI". Certainly not "for years". Perhaps you're thinking of one of the other BSD.
Oh, it's definitely clunky! And I'd have to admit that the disk partitioning section is intimidating – you really are expected to know what you're going to have. This is beyond newbies, but reasonable for "seasoned" admins, which have always been the target audience. And, yes, I understand the problem there: how do you get to become a "seasoned" admin in the first place if you struggle initially.
It's been a while, I admit, but I've definitely been able to install and then run all the software you need for a GUI and started the system. But configuring it for modern (post SVGA…) systems is not for the faint hearted.
I think there's a bit of difference between "options for GUI" and "able to install and then run all the software you need for a GUI"
Yes, you can install pkgs from the FreeBSD installer. No, it doesn't result in a fully X11/XFree/XOrg GUI desktop after you exit installer and reboot. You can be technically correct, but it's not the same thing.
When you say something like "options for GUI" it brings to mind an Ubuntu/Debian or Red Hat-flavored graphical installer, not the 3-color ascii text curses-style TUI installation from FreeBSD et al. Similarly, it implies the system will reboot into some version of X display manager for GUI user logins, and an X desktop of some kind, like Ubuntu et al, rather than a text-only login: prompt.
Maybe that's not what you meant by "options for GUI", but from here that's what it sounded like.
I'll note that I generally prefer the text installation modes, for Debian as well as FreeBSD and NetBSD, but I'm admittedly usually installing servers. Now, when I installed my Debian laptop, I was glad for the GUI X installer and the ability to un-select GNOME and just pick my favorite XFCE, and moreso glad that the thing just rebooted into a familiar GUI login screen afterwards.
I've used FreeBSD long enough that XFree86 and xf86setup, and maybe tweaking the resulting config file, was usually how it was done. Seems like things are improved beyond that today, but still not automatic.
"But I love managing BSD systems because virtually nothing has changed in the way you do this over the last 20 years!"
Yup. Even if things (bugs and improvements) have been sorted behind the scenes, the way you (sysadmin, dev, user) interact with the things has generally been consistent.
E.g. nowdays we have 'sysrc' for adjusting settings in /etc/rc.conf (et al), and I've learned to like it a lot. But if you want to continue on with vi or echo/sed/awk and so on, like we did back in the single digits releases, that still works too.
The consistency and continuity of the BSD's in general is familiar and comforting. Lends itself to stability and reliability, and I expect it's also a contributor to why the docs (specifically man pages) are so good.
> … BSD's in general … the docs (specifically man pages) are so good.
I can't comment on BSDs in general, but for FreeBSD, part of this might be of interest:
External contributions to FreeBSD : freebsd
A translator observed that "… Approximately 30% of the Handbook content is outdated, …"; and so on.
On the plus side, listen to what's said about documentation, interactions with the Foundation, and so on, in the very recent video that's linked from Core Team Update – June 2025 FreeBSD Developer Summit : freebsd
> … Yes, you can install pkgs from the FreeBSD installer. No, it doesn't result in a fully X11/XFree/XOrg GUI desktop after you exit installer and reboot. …
With a little extra effort, including the two commands below, it's possible to have SDDM ready for a Plasma (X11) session with the first boot of the installed system.
service dbus enable && service dbus start
service sddm enable && service sddm start
A third and final command might be sysrc, to specify which kernel module to load for graphics.
> Linux is becoming too mainstream ... and too easy. Everything just works now.
Presumably there was some cheek-tongue involved in this post, but still....
I would say, in some areas, Linux is indeed "too" easy nowdays, and not in a good way.
As in, "too easy to do something you maybe don't really want or need".
And while it's often "easy"(ier) to do nowdays, hiding the complexity behind a gui or workflow/playbook gadget doesn't necessarily make it good, or merely better.
Basically, it can be "too easy" to make a really big change, and not understand what you did, or how to fix or un-do it if you had to.
Quote: ".....this previously more server-oriented OS...."
Here at Fedora Mansions, there's a Fedora/XFCE laptop lurking in a cupboard.....and providing the server functions for the assembled multitudes on the LAN.
Do you mean that what I REALLY should be doing is seeking out some (other) specific distribution?
.....but F42/XFCE is doing PERFECTLY well as the local server! What don't I understand?
> What don't I understand?
1. Servers should run stable slow-moving OSes made mostly of thoroughly tested components that have had all known vulnerabilities patched. E.g. a RHELative, or preferably, Debian. Those with newer kit, or skills from the desktop OS, or who want the company's pretty good automation and management stuff, might go for Ubuntu Server.
2. Or a BSD, especially FreeBSD, as it has ZFS built in for grown-up storage management and is immune to most Linux exploits.
(IOW Fedora is about the worst choice there is, IMHO.)
3. Servers don't need screens and keyboards and mice. Therefore they should not run GUIs. Why not? Because the more S/W you're running, the more there is to fail and the more there is to exploit. So, keep the image as small as humanly possible.
4. You can manage a server remotely via a web console. I was doing this in the 1990s, 30 years ago, with Webmin. It still works. If you need a GUI then use that. But now there are things like Cockpit.
Is that enough yet?
Liam:
Thanks. Clear and sensible as usual!
But there's my "LEAST BAD" criterion to consider. Namely that it's bad enough having to manage one distribution choice (you know....updates, backups, screw ups.....)......
.....but some of us certainly do not have time to learn and manage TWO distributions.
.....so ONE distribution is LEAST BAD.....especially when the assembled multitudes almost never complain!
Use Rocky Linux or Alma Linux for your server OS - it's stable, it's based off of RHEL (so a RHELative as Liam puts it) and you shouldn't have to re-learn any of the existing skills you have since it all operates off of the same Linux basics. There are some differences, sure, but they're mostly subtle.
... it would be so nice if those text based graphical style screens* as illustrated, had a reminder of how to toggle the options (space bar).
I can't remember the why or how now, but I landed on one of those as some kind of sub-option in a more graphical installer (Debian, possibly about booting?) and it took me ages to work that out by accident!
Anon, 'cause I felt so stupid...
* I want to say curses, but that might not be fair.
Alfonso's two sets of dialogues might appear identical at a glance, however there's at least one significant difference.
Old and new:
https://gitlab.com/alfix/desktopconfig/-/raw/main/screenshots/screenshot-end.png
https://gitlab.com/alfix/kde-installer-dialogs/-/raw/main/screenshots/4_img.png
Where previously the routine concluded with direction to use the command line to modify the video group, now there's a dialogue for group membership.
An existing bsdconfig groupedit dialogue (FreeBSD 14.3-RELEASE):
> … at present, once you complete this and reboot, … Then you have to connect to the internet, …
An Internet connection that was gained whilst running FreeBSD Installer should be regained automatically when you first boot the installed OS.
You should find relevant lines in:
/etc/rc.conf
> … reckon it should have been something smaller and simpler, such as Xfce …
Probably not so good OOTB for people with non-US keyboard layouts.
Xfce: with system defaults, the keyboard layout is wrong and cannot be corrected : freebsd
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