back to article Deutsche Bahn train hits 405 km/h without falling to bits

Deutsche Bahn (DB) and Siemens Mobility have managed to get an ICE test train to 405 km/h (251 mph) on the Erfurt-Leipzig/Halle high-speed line. While China, with a maglev train hitting 650 km/h (404 mph) in just seven seconds, might regard the achievement as cute, it is a milestone for Germany, where exceeding 300 km/h (186 …

  1. Dinanziame Silver badge
    Windows

    Let me be the first to state that DB should concentrate on having every day normal trains run on time without being cancelled. They have somehow gained a dismal reputation on that point in the past decade, that they most definitely did not have in the nineties (at the time, Italy was the butt of such jokes). This is far more relevant and important for the reputation of a rail network than the max speed you can reach on controlled tests.

    1. Headley_Grange Silver badge

      Came here to say the same. There's nothing wrong with faster services, but ask most travellers, especially commuters, and I bet they'd prefer trains that depart and arrive on time than have a shorter but unpredictable journeys. if you're trying to improve any process then the first step is to get what you've got running reliably and consistently before you start tweaking it.

      1. Korev Silver badge

        This is pretty much the Swiss model, where trains are run slowly with slack in the timetable to make up time.

        They also ban late-running German trains from their network to avoid knock-on effects!

      2. Like a badger Silver badge

        You can have both: The UK trains I use combine sloth-like speeds with unreliability.

        1. Paul Herber Silver badge

          ' ...combine sloth-like speeds with unreliability... '

          That combination can, and does, get extremely expensive.

          (Actually, we travelled by train into our local city a few days ago and it was a very good service, if a tad on the expensive side.

          There was only one announcement of a delay to another service caused by a broken-down train.)

          1. RegGuy1
            Happy

            Das Deutschlandticket

            The Germans have das Deutschlandticket. I don't mind the delays when I can visit and use the (second class -- no ICEs) trains, and buses and trams with one €58 payment. Whoever came up with that idea needs a medal. (Although Luxembourg is even better -- all their public transport is free!!)

            1. FIA Silver badge

              Re: Das Deutschlandticket

              Yeah, I'd agree with that. A friend and I went to Munich the other year. Discovering we could just pay once for a 3 day ticket that did trams/metro and trains was amazing. Also, it was as cost effective to get a family ticket, so when we met a friend they could come along too, for no extra cost.

              So we touristed... a lot.

            2. MyffyW Silver badge

              Re: Das Deutschlandticket

              I love that idea of a rover ticket, and honourable mention for little Luxembourg there (albeit within a rather smaller area).

            3. Ken G Silver badge

              Re: Das Deutschlandticket

              As a Luxembourger who has had a D-Ticket, I do mind the delays when they mean I miss connections.

        2. katrinab Silver badge
          Happy

          The UK actually has the fastest slow trains in the world. As well as the fastest steam train and fastest diesel.

          Our fast trains are not very fast, other than the French ones on LGV Nord / HS1; but we do have the highest average train speed.

          1. rafff

            Our fast trains are not very fast

            How fast it is economic to have a train run depends on the distance you expect it to travel. Britain is small compared to France or Germany; Switzerland is even smaller, and distinctly knobbly.

            The design of the HS2 was predicated on the longest possible domestic run being from London to Glasgow or Edinburgh. Once you are in Scotland speeds are necessarily lower. What killed the HS2 was that BR expected to run it through the Channel Tunnel, but no-one told RTZ, who were building(?) the tunnel. The shock waves of a 400kmph train entering and running though a tunnel would shatter the passengers' ear drums; once the train had to slow down to around 120kmph the whole thing became uneconomic.

            BTW I was present when the mismatch of expectations came to light. It was at a Sunday afternoon tea, not a formal review meeting.

            1. imanidiot Silver badge

              Re: Our fast trains are not very fast

              Proper train nose design should help tunnel boom problems tremendously https://www.jrpass.com/blog/why-shinkansen-bullet-trains-no-longer-look-like-a-bullet. Probably still not allowed to enter at 400km/h, but shinkansen as far as I can find runs 260 km/h into tunnels. Which is still damn fast

              1. Dave@Home

                Re: Our fast trains are not very fast

                They also spent a lot of time redesigning the tunnel entrances and exits to mitigate shockwave booms.

                Watched a youtube video with the young un this morning on Shinkansen as he was getting dressed for nursery. https://youtu.be/9qALUY6WeN8

            2. rafff

              Re: Our fast trains are not very fast

              Sorry. Not HS2, it was the APT. Late 1960s. I was getting my acronyms in a twist.

              1. werdsmith Silver badge

                Re: Our fast trains are not very fast

                HS1 trains travel at up to 300km/h but slow to 160km/h for the tunnel. This is normal for high speed trains everywhere. None of them go max

                speed in the tunnels.

                The APT was killed by the expectation that passengers would not experience the sensation of lateral G on curved track when BR tried to engineer this out. When it was further developed leading eventually to Pendolino the Italian engineers accepted these sensations leading to less nausea for the passengers.

                1. RegGuy1
                  FAIL

                  Re: Our fast trains are not very fast

                  Then perhaps it was a stupid idea to build a bat tunnel. Just sayin'.

                2. sad_loser

                  Re: Our fast trains are not very fast

                  re the hovertrain - good documentary here

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqsmOr3bEr4

                3. NXM Silver badge

                  Re: Our fast trains are not very fast

                  I read that the negative press the APT received on launch day was because the journos had all been on a bender before they alighted and the unexpected tilting made them feel rather unwell. Not the train's fault at all!

                4. MJI Silver badge

                  Re: Our fast trains are not very fast

                  Some of the APT engineers are not very impressed by the Pendolinos.

                  Was lack of funds that scuppered APT not technology

          2. JimboSmith

            We might have the most uncomfortable trains given my last trip on the new GWR trains. The person sitting opposite was a regular passenger and had brought a cushion to sit on and told me I’d made a rookie mistake.

            1. Simon Harris Silver badge

              My parents are on the Midland line out of St. Pancras (well, not literally, I don't tie them to the track like some Victorian villain), but if I have to use Thameslink to visit, I much preferred the padding on the now withdrawn 319s to their class 700 replacements.

              1. Gordon 11

                >> I much preferred the padding on the now withdrawn 319s to their class 700 replacements.

                I like the 700 (and 80x) seats. They encourage you to sit properly, not slouch.

            2. really_adf

              My experience of the Class 80x trains is GWR and I agree the seats are not good. In keeping with (in no particular order) the terrible ride quality, being noisy inside from track/bogie, motors, engines (when running) and air conditioning (that is nonetheless insufficient on the hottest days), harsh lighting, limited and crappy bicycle storage prone to causing damage, a frequently dodgy PA system, erratic water supply in toilets, lack of hot food provision, sporting first class devoid of any sense of luxury, being woefully underpowered on diesel, and introducing me to the new excuse of "more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time" (so cancellations and/or short trains). Other than that they are great!

              In fairness, at least some of the above are not applicable or lessened in other operators' variants. Positives that spring to mind are that they can accelerate quickly at low speed, maintain high acceleration when running from overhead power, and I suspect crashworthiness is much better than the HSTs/Mark 3 coaches they replaced.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                The trains were specified by HM Government as apparently were the interiors which as others have pointed out suck badly. The interior was designed by this bunch https://www.dca-design.com/work/class-800-series and the super uncomfortable seats in standard class are the Sofia from Fainsa.I’ll echo the other person in saying that a cushion is essential. Using a laptop with a mouse is impossible in standard unless you’re in a seat of four with a large table because the fold down tray tables are rubbish.

                On the subject of the tables what idiot thought having the end of the table closest to the wall sloping upwards? This means that this end has the last 5-7cms as unusable space which is crap. On top of that they put the power sockets at the base of the seat which means unplugging your devices if you’re sitting the aisle seat and the person in the other seat needs to get up. On the old trains the power sockets were at the end of the table, which is much more sensible. They also have a blind that blocks virtually no light, so that in bright sun,ight reflections on the screen are unavoidable. The blind also doesn’t reach the base of the wimdow so that allows light through and when approaching sunset direct sunlight comes through the gap.

            3. Da Weezil

              The Hitachi torture racks are the thing that persuaded me to drive long distance. Less comfortable trains are not really an improvement for long distance passengers. For stations west of Cardiff the discomfort is tinged with annoyance that this was supposed to bring electrification to the line, which was curtailed at Cardiff. They found money to electrify the valley lines, but as it seems increasingly obvious, Cardiff and its surrounds are all that matters. NOTHING has been done to improve journey times to West Wales, hence the reason that people opt to travel by car

              Sad to think that we invented the railway but lost the ability to innovate for better/faster rail travel (ex railwayman)

          3. JohnGrantNineTiles

            There's a little-known piece of physics that says that above about 320 km/h the slipstream picks up the ballast, so you have to have concrete slab track, which is more expensive (though the cost of ballast has gone up a lot recently). Watch for the latest review of HS2 to reduce the speed to about 300 km/h (which is plenty for London to Birmingham anyway).

        3. SundogUK Silver badge

          Railway speeds in the UK are seriously constrained by routes that were laid out in the Victorian era, when trains were a lot slower. Laying out high speed track these days is a very expensive proposition, as HS2 found out.

          1. Ian Johnston Silver badge

            The east coast main line from London to Newcastle and the Great Western main line from London to Bristol are both (a) Victorian and (b) extremely fast. And high speeds lines on the LGV/TGV model are actually quite cheap to build, comparatively, because they eschew expensive earthworks in favour of motorway style gradients and huge reserves of power on the trains. HS2 is an exception because of rampant corruption and inefficiency. Any other european country would be building it much faster and for a fraction of the cost.

      3. Jonathan Richards 1 Silver badge

        Customer preference

        It's all very well for the Chinese to shoot their tiny test vehicle (1.1 tonnes, apparently, half the weight of a Land Rover Discovery) down a 1 km test track and claim a world speed record, but a little arithmetic shows acceleration to get to 650 kph in seven seconds is 25.79 m/s, i.e. 2.6 g. There's no way the average traveller is ever going to get on a train that subjects them to those sorts of accelerations.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Customer preference

          If we're looking at small things moving quickly on rails, then 2560meters/second would be the record. This was accomplished by something similarly non-passenger-carrying... a rail gun.

          Glad to see the Germans match an early tech-demo with an actual rail vehicle on proper track.

        2. Like a badger Silver badge

          Re: Customer preference

          Well, it does look like China is giving serious effort to a Hyperloop vacuum style maglev train, under the name T-flight. Given the backing of state resources and apparently serious large scale testing on a reported 60km test track, that might actually come to something (unlike Elon's brain fart) although I doubt that there will ever be a viable economic business case given the vast infrastructure costs.

          1. imanidiot Silver badge

            Re: Customer preference

            Hyperloop vacuum tube train things are never going to be economically viable. It's a stupid idea that can't work.

          2. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: Customer preference

            "although I doubt that there will ever be a viable economic business case given the vast infrastructure costs."

            Not just cost, but safety. Vacuum can be lost very quickly, but the trains cannot decelerate that fast due to squishy meatsacks not being that good wth several G's being applied and the impact of the shock wave from the air reentering the tube would smack trains pretty hard as well. Besides deliberate sabotage, a truck hitting a pylon or the tube itself could cause a rupture. An earthquake or other land movement can cause the tube to separate and it would be a very long tube.

            The Vac-Train has been debunked for over 100 years and the reasons for its many issues aren't going away.

            1. John Robson Silver badge

              Re: Customer preference

              Just needs to be deployed on the moon, then the vacuum is quite safe...

              1. Paul Herber Silver badge

                Re: Customer preference

                The Moon has other problems. It's what comes of being a harsh mistress.

              2. MachDiamond Silver badge

                Re: Customer preference

                "Just needs to be deployed on the moon, then the vacuum is quite safe..."

                It's the delta P that is the problem. Delta is often the problem.

                One doesn't need glass to make "vacuum tubes"/valves/electron lamps on the moon.

        3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: Customer preference

          "There's no way the average traveller is ever going to get on a train that subjects them to those sorts of accelerations."

          Especially at peak times and it's standing room only :-)

        4. PCScreenOnly

          Re: Customer preference

          Being a new meaning to "hold on right"

      4. rg287 Silver badge

        Came here to say the same. There's nothing wrong with faster services, but ask most travellers, especially commuters, and I bet they'd prefer trains that depart and arrive on time than have a shorter but unpredictable journeys.

        Absolutely. It's a shame the messaging over HS2 has been so abysmal, since that's exactly what it was designed to do (since most commuters are on local/regional trains, not long-distance HS services). Raising line speeds on existing lines is always making trouble for yourself down the line (apart from slightly higher speeds as regional lines get out the suburbs and go rural, with longer gaps between stops. Some urban lines don't need to get past 40mph due to frequent stops, but 100-120mph is pretty sensible once you're doing 5-15mile stretches).

        Mixed traffic running (local + express) causes all sorts of problems, and a delay in one place can cause knocks nationally.

        For instance, Birmingham New Street in the UK was built as a cross-city hub. Mostly through-platforms for local and regional services barreling around the Midlands. But over time it became a national hub as well, hosting London and Glasgow trains.

        A Glasgow train parked in a through-platform for half an hour doing turn-around and crew-change blocks 6-8 potential local services (dwell time of 3 minutes and then shooting on). If that trainset goes tech or there's a late departure for some reaosn, that can literally knock on across the UK, blocking arrivals or departures from Plymouth, Nottingham and further.

        The new Curzon Street station will lift all the long-distance (London, Scotland, etc) express services away from BNS, which will relieve a huge bottleneck and allow literally dozens of additional local/regional services per hour through BNS, using all that extra capacity on the Cross-City line and the rebuilt University station. Plus more services down to the South-West, Swansea and Aberystwyth.

        Alas, because Sunk-it cancelled Phase 2a to Manchester, the long-distance trains out of Curzon will merge back onto the WCML just south of Stafford, so although there can be lots of extra trains across the West Mids, the SW & Wales, and out to Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury, we won't get any extra capacity towards Crewe or Stoke. Nor will we be able to reopen stations like Barlaston, Wedgwood or Norton Bridge, which closed ~2004 not for lack of passengers, but because rising line speeds meant it was impossible to stop local trains there without blocking a

        1. Korev Silver badge
          Thumb Up

          Upvoted, sadly only once

        2. A Non e-mouse Silver badge

          It's a shame the messaging over HS2 has been so abysmal

          Yeah. They kept on pushing the "faster trains" bit but that's not the biggest benefit of HS2. More capacity is the real benefit. The WCML (& ECML) are "full" and there's still more demand for services (Passenger & freight) but no-where to put them.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            "Yeah. They kept on pushing the "faster trains" bit but that's not the biggest benefit of HS2. More capacity is the real benefit. The WCML (& ECML) are "full" and there's still more demand for services (Passenger & freight) but no-where to put them."

            For a definition of full. Government bottled out on the technology to implement moving block signalling that would have given speed and capacity improvements, and that for a circa £4bn increase in costs. Compared to the eye watering financial black hole of HS2 that's chump change.

            1. rg287 Silver badge

              For a definition of full. Government bottled out on the technology to implement moving block signalling that would have given speed and capacity improvements, and that for a circa £4bn increase in costs. Compared to the eye watering financial black hole of HS2 that's chump change.

              There's limited evidence that rolling-block signalling meaningfully increases capacity. It does a bit, but it mostly improves safety and gives signallers a bit of wiggle room. Traffic segregation will open up 4 train paths for local services for every inter-city train lifted onto HS2. RBS isn't going to give you a 300-400% capacity uplift. Like, 30% at most. In some places.

              The costs on the WC Route Modernisation were spiralling from £5Bn for the whole thing to >£15Bn, so they pulled rolling-block and reduced the target speed from 140mph to 120mph (because that meant they could use line-side signalling instead of in-cab, which would have come with ETCS).

              At the end of the way, the WCML is one of the most complex bits of railway in Europe. Trying to "big bang" a big signalling project like that was always going to end in disaster. They ended up deploying it on the Cambrian line, which is a very simple line, which gave them a chance to actually learn how to install and run it. Although it's overkill on small lines, it's actually easier to roll out there and then build into the trunk once you've got a pool of expertise.

              Also, whatever minor capacity increase you do get from rolling-block, you're still running a gimped timetable by leaving massive headways behind slow trains before you can dispatch the next fast train.

              There's no getting around the mathematical inevitability of train graphs.

          2. MachDiamond Silver badge

            "The WCML (& ECML) are "full" and there's still more demand for services (Passenger & freight) but no-where to put them."

            That would mean more creative ways need to be found to make sure the finite track resource is being used to the highest efficiency that it can. It might also be useful to see how something such as getting rid of problematic level crossings can speed things up. Where they can't be eliminated, a limit on consist length during the day or peak hours might reduce frustration. Los Angeles spent a load of time and money to put trains coming from the ports in a ditch to keep them from impeding traffic more and more due to higher volumes of ship freight.

        3. Paul Herber Silver badge

          The problem with local stations is that it allows passengers to get on and off somewhere near their start point and destination and there is one thing that messes up the efficient running of a railway it's passengers with their wants and needs!

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            >there is one thing that messes up the efficient running of a railway it's passengers with their wants and needs!

            The only real timetabling problem with passengers is the need to stop the train to allow them to board and alight (what a lovely word)

            This could be solved by a system of nets and scoops alongside the track.

            1. 42656e4d203239 Silver badge
              Thumb Up

              >>This could be solved by a system of nets and scoops alongside the track.

              You jest, however I remember a cartoon by W Heath Robinson in "Railway Ribaldry" from 1935 espousing exactly this.

            2. Steve K

              Blott on the Landscape

              I think that there was a character in Tom Sharpe's "Blott on the Lansdscape" who wanted to use a series of conveyor belts running at different speeds so that trains did not have to stop for passengers to get off/on trains.

              1. Ian Johnston Silver badge

                Re: Blott on the Landscape

                One of Heinlein's crappy sci-fi stories suggested that in 1940.

            3. MachDiamond Silver badge

              "This could be solved by a system of nets and scoops alongside the track."

              "Mailbag" class?

        4. Like a badger Silver badge

          "The new Curzon Street station will lift all the long-distance (London, Scotland, etc) express services away from BNS, which will relieve a huge bottleneck and allow literally dozens of additional local/regional services per hour through BNS, using all that extra capacity on the Cross-City line and the rebuilt University station. Plus more services down to the South-West, Swansea and Aberystwyth."

          Yeah, and it will keep New Street as a stygian, unfit for purpose shit hole, with the added bonus of having no fast links to London when HS2 opens. Anybody using train services to New Street who wants to connect to London will be faced with a 15 minute walk from New Street (or paying a few quid more for a similar net travel time waiting for and travelling on the grindingly slow trams). Or they could catch the stopping services from New Street to London that take two and a quarter hours. Birmingham had three crap city centre stations, and the HS2 solution was to add a fourth one in a deserted area of post-industrial land well away from where anybody wanted to go to.

          More services to Swansea and Aberystwyth? Woohoo! There's diddly squat in the way of passenger traffic from Birmingham to those destinations (annual travel last reporting year New Street to Aberystwyth, 6,854 passengers, Swansea, 4,401 pax). Running more trains where people don't want to go doesn't help. The south west (or cross country) services there is a capacity problem, but little of that's down to capacity limits across Birmingham without multi-billion investment on the southern cross city line. And if they wanted more capacity on the line via Milton Keynes, they should have upgraded the line via Banbury.

          What was needed was to spend serious money (the sort of endless billions that HS2 has already committed for a crap faux-fast solution) to sort out a single central Birmingham station that linked in the two (eventually three) routes to London, the local and inter-regional services, in a modern station that serves the people of Birmingham.

          1. rg287 Silver badge

            Yeah, and it will keep New Street as a stygian, unfit for purpose shit hole, with the added bonus of having no fast links to London when HS2 opens.

            It's funny, people decry HS2 as "oh, who wants to get to London 20mins quicker?"

            But when you point out that it means you get loads more local trains (most journeys being local/regional), people complain about wanting a (not really that) fast train to London. New Street will become a proper West Mids hub with lots of high-frequency local trains, designed to get people out their cars for short journeys that ought to be a train ride (and would be if there were 4-6 tph instead of 2, because then it would be Tube levels of convenient and you don't even have to think about the timetable - just hop on the next one).

            As for location. There's a bunch of work around Moor Street so a number of regional services will come there instead of New Street (further space for local services), which will suit onward travellers. And realistically they're going to end up with a travellator connecting the lot anyway.

            More services to Swansea and Aberystwyth? Woohoo! There's diddly squat in the way of passenger traffic from Birmingham to those destinations (annual travel last reporting year New Street to Aberystwyth, 6,854 passengers, Swansea, 4,401 pax).

            And why do you think that is? Frequency is freedom. If you have very occasional trains, only the desperate use them - because you have to fit your day around the timetable and a missed connection could be calamitous - especially if the last train leaves relatively early (<8-9pm). Frequent trains drive modal shift. This is not wishful thinking, but basic network effects shown by decades of research.

            More to the point, how many people on the Swansea route will have (dis)embarked at Cardiff, or one of the many other intermediate stops? More frequent trains benefit local services - regardless of whether people go all the way from Brum to Plymouth or Swansea, additional services on those routes encourages usage of the intermediate stops.

            It's one of the silly things about current rail pricing - people travelling from Stoke or Stafford to London can get CrossCounty (£££) or London-Northwestern (£ but slower).

            In France, there wouldn't be a price difference - you'd buy a ticket to London and then get on the next train - and you'd pick the TGV that's going to thump down the LGV obviously. The slow one will get you there (possibly with a couple of changes), but is intended for people making partial journeys - Stone to Tamworth or Rugby to Rugeley. It's only under the asinine UK franchise system where we don't have enough trains, and we haven't invested in Inter-City infrastructure (HSR) where we use pricing to encourage long-distance passengers onto the slow trains as a form of demand-management from the rammed ICE services.

            What was needed was to spend serious money (the sort of endless billions that HS2 has already committed for a crap faux-fast solution) to sort out a single central Birmingham station that linked in the two (eventually three) routes to London, the local and inter-regional services, in a modern station that serves the people of Birmingham.

            I'd be all for a proper Hauptbahnhof for Brum. I don't disagree. But that ignores the problem that you won't get those extra services without dedicated fast lines. Curzon Street unblocks platform space at New Street. But it also physically removes non-stop services (that currently blow through Coseley, Smethwick, Penkridge, etc without stopping). If the Brum-Wolverhampton-Stafford line is still choked with Glasgow and Manchester-bound trains, you can't run additional local and regional services. And the fastest/cheapest way to do segregation is generally a new HSR line running through (mostly) countryside, because adding another pair of tracks to the line through Wolverhampton would demolish a lot more houses and businesses and ultimately cost a lot more.

            1. Tim Almond

              "And why do you think that is? Frequency is freedom. If you have very occasional trains, only the desperate use them - because you have to fit your day around the timetable and a missed connection could be calamitous - especially if the last train leaves relatively early (<8-9pm). Frequent trains drive modal shift. This is not wishful thinking, but basic network effects shown by decades of research."

              And a car will always beat any train for frequency. You walk out the door of your house, into a car that takes you to your final destination. No waiting for a bus, no waiting for the train connection, no transport at the other end. And rail is hilariously expensive and unreliable compared to a car.

              most people who already own a car use trains when it's either a very long journey or into a highly congested place like London. People are not going to get out of cars for Sutton Coldfield to an office in Cardiff because there isn't much of a traffic issue in Cardiff.

              1. rg287 Silver badge

                People are not going to get out of cars for Sutton Coldfield to an office in Cardiff because there isn't much of a traffic issue in Cardiff.

                Which Cardiff are you visiting? So speaks someone who does not have to negotiate the Bryn Glas tunnels on a regular basis.

                Sutton Coldfield > Cardiff is about 2.5-3hrs depending on traffic.

                You can do it by train in about the same time, the main question being the wait for your connection. With the improvements available following HS2, this won't necessarily get much faster, but additional services will improve reliability and less "connection peril" in the event of delays.

                And a car will always beat any train for frequency. You walk out the door of your house, into a car that takes you to your final destination. No waiting for a bus, no waiting for the train connection, no transport at the other end. And rail is hilariously expensive and unreliable compared to a car.

                So long as you don't want to travel on a Friday.

                I was at an event on Saturday that a number of people travelled up on Friday for from across the UK. Every single one of them was stuck in traffic across a diversity of motorways. Minimum delay was 2 hours for everyone I spoke to. Unfortunately they were all carrying a bootload of sports kit, so trains wouldn't be an option anyway, but a majority of travellers are getting themselves, lunch and a laptop about, or a small weekend bag. People do travel by train even for intermediate journeys - I'd never drive into Birmingham or Manchester, even though there's basically a motorway running into the middle of Manchester. Just hop on a train.

                Cars. "Reliable". Lol. If you need to travel on the M6 for a business meeting, you're rolling the dice that today won't be this month's 12-hour closure where you'll be stuck parked for 4 hours until the Police come and turn you around.

          2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

            "and the HS2 solution was to add a fourth one in a deserted area of post-industrial land well away from where anybody wanted to go to."

            That may be the case now, but what will it be like once the station opens and the service is running? Sometimes things like this are done to regenerate and area and if it's a 15 minute walk, it's really not very far so odds are there will be one or more new hotels near the new station and probably some new office blocks and general tarting up of both the immediate surroundings and the route between the stations and/or the city centre.

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            You actually want public transit before anything gets built. That way you get transit where there's eventually (hopefully) lots of people, instead of having to build stops where there's still space. Which happens to be where most people *aren't*.

        5. MachDiamond Silver badge

          "Raising line speeds on existing lines is always making trouble for yourself down the line (apart from slightly higher speeds as regional lines get out the suburbs and go rural, with longer gaps between stops. Some urban lines don't need to get past 40mph due to frequent stops, but 100-120mph is pretty sensible once you're doing 5-15mile stretches)."

          Work should be done so stations are off the main line. This is a main premise of PRT so that traffic can always get around stopped traffic at a station. Where I live, tow/rescue trucks are positioned on major freeways at least during rush hour to quickly clear breakdowns. Works were done to create a lay-by in strategic places to make it easy on the tow truck drivers. It's a cheap solution to having breakdowns/minor accidents causing hours long tailbacks at the busiest times of the day.

          I've seen some sensible suggestions from people on schedule modifications that often include trains on a route not stopping at every station during busy times. If a train is full, unless there is a request to stop, bypassing stations can increase average speeds. There's no sense otherwise to stop if there isn't the space to take on more passengers. The data is mostly there so there's no need to play games with real people. Coupled with the ability to have trains at stations not blocking through traffic, existing infrastructure can used more efficiently.

          Once past ~150mph, the costs start going vertical to go faster. The stresses on the track climb rapidly, the consists need to be built to take the increased loads and aerodynamics become a much bigger issue. The pool of money for all train services is moderately fixed so spending more on HSR comes with fewer people ending up with routes and schedules that they can/will use. This a major problem in the US where fixation on HSR means less money to increase service on existing routes and no way to add routes which would make Amtrak usable by more people. LA to Las Vegas is a good example. The service (private in this case) doesn't even make it to the LA Union Station but to a suburb that can be hours away in traffic or served at odd times by a commuter rail network. The first challenge is a major pass to get from the LA basin to past the San Andreas fault. Building a HSR spec length of infrastructure there is useless. Once past the climb and earthquake fault line, There's no reason to not have HSR to Las Vegas, but, instead of siting the terminus at the airport, downtown or another transportation hub, it ends short. The pity is that it could become a route extending all the way to Salt Lake City and maybe beyond while also serving Amtrak stations where it intersects existing routes.

          In the case of London <> Scotland, there's already services. One can take a plane if in a hurry, take to the rails to make a journey of it and even travel overnight a bit slower but without losing waking hours making the trip. The money for HSR could be spent elsewhere to improve or even just clean up infrastructure that hasn't been seen to for decades. It's like the roads where I live. They are long past their best-by date and the city spends money shoveling asphalt into holes as a quick fix rather than doing a proper patch. If the plans were in place to repave that section in a year's time, that can be fine, but it won't be repaved so the expedient repairs cause more problems than they solve. Some busy train junctions look as if this is also what's happening.

          1. rg287 Silver badge

            Work should be done so stations are off the main line.

            You want to rebuild every station?

            And people thought HS2 was expensive!

            Look, yes. If you have mixed traffic, then having passing platforms/loops is a very sensible idea. And in the US, where you have acres of space then maybe you can achieve this. But (for the most part) not in dense UK towns.

            And here's the thing, Switches & Crossings are expensive and maintenance-intensive. If you are building a branch line (or a metro), where you can reasonably expect every train to stop at every station, then obviously that's fine - no work required. If youre building a new ICE line, then you design in passing loops. But putting a load of S&C at every station imposes a perpetual maintenance cost that - in the proper analysis - starts to favour just building a separate express line that runs through the countryside and leaves the old lines for local services.

            The problem is with the plea of "can't we make the existing tracks better?" or "why do we have to build a new HS line? Wouldn't it be cheaper to build new local rail?".

            The existing lines already go through towns and cities. So it makes sense to dedicate them to local/regional services. Trying to make them express-ish (as we have) and then building a new "local" line would involve carving a new corridor through the town. Or slapping the "local" station on the edge of town - not very useful.

            Existing urban stations also tend to be hemmed in by other development. If it's a simple 2-track/2-platform, then building in passing loops usually involves demolishing both platforms, installing the new tracks where the platform used to be and putting new platforms further out. i.e. you're totally rebuilding the station.

            I've seen some sensible suggestions from people on schedule modifications that often include trains on a route not stopping at every station during busy times. If a train is full, unless there is a request to stop, bypassing stations can increase average speeds.

            This is not a sensible suggestion. If your idea is to have request stops in order to raise average speeds and therefore play nicer with non-stop express trains... you're setting yourself up for a highly unreliable service. What if every stop is requested (at busy times, it will be!)? You have to serve every stop or else people won't trust it for the purpose of getting to work. And if every stop is requested, your express trains are going to end up being delayed behind the local service.

            There's no sense otherwise to stop if there isn't the space to take on more passengers.

            If that's the case, you need to be prioritising more local services at the expense of ICE services, or running longer trains and extending the platform. If you are leaving passengers standing on a platform and making them late for work, then they'll revert to driving - even if they can't really afford it.

            existing infrastructure can used more efficiently.

            The most efficient way of using infrastructure in terms of trains-per-hour and passengers-per-hour is for every train to run to the same service pattern and stop at every station. This is how metros run at 90-second headways and shift 30k PPH in each direction using one line in each direction.

            Once past ~150mph, the costs start going vertical to go faster.

            Not really. Above 225mph maintenance load starts running up, but 200 is a perfectly well-established baseline for modern (high speed) inter-city passenger rail. The ITE define "high speed rail" as ~120mph on existing infra, and >160mph on new-build. 150mph is table stakes. But yes, trying to torture >150mph out of an old alignment is always going to be difficult and expensive.

            In the case of London <> Scotland, there's already services. One can take a plane if in a hurry, take to the rails to make a journey of it and even travel overnight a bit slower but without losing waking hours making the trip.

            1. The airports are full, so the proposal is to build a third runway at Heathrow. This massively increases noise and air pollution and we should be trying to move away from short-haul aviation entirely. Better to build a new long-distance line (which will be 200mph because it's 2025, not 1825 - this is a solved problem thanks to France, Japan and Alan Wickens).

            2. It's not about the speed. It's about having the dedicated line which isn't wiggling through towns and villages you have no intention of stopping in. If you're building a new ICE line, it'll be 200mph. But that's not the point. The dedicated line is the point.

            3. Nonetheless, in getting to 200mph, you adequately replace short-haul aviation within ~800miles. Furthermore, you increase the distance you can travel in a given time - for instance, HS2 will probably get attached to HS1 some time after 2050 and international services will be possible. A Manchester or Glasgow to Paris service benefits substantially from doing 200mph on a dedicated line vs 120mph on a legacy line (sometimes, but with TSRs down to 80mph in wiggly or urban areas, old tunnels, etc).

            4. SLEEPERS. Yes! So, you're thinking small. You're thinking London-Scotland sleepers, which we've done for 100+ years. But at some point we'll have international services. If we had 200mph across Europe (pull your finger out Germany), then Paris to BUDAPEST could be an overnight sleeper. Hell, if you had HSR across the US you could do NYC-LA in <15hours! HSR predominantly helps your national ICE services in daytime (or regional in US) - it gets the Texas triangle within 75minutes of each other, and the midwest is all within 120mins. But stitch those HSR networks together and you suddenly get a really profound sleeper option. Nobody is thinking about high speed sleepers and how that can compete with mid-haul aviation.

            Sleepers are already having a renaissance in Europe (Nightjet, etc). 200mph could pretty much cover the continent overnight. We don't need to stretch to 250-300+mph. The well-understood 200mph is basically "good enough".

            The money for HSR could be spent elsewhere to improve or even just clean up infrastructure that hasn't been seen to for decades.

            Where? Specifically. Actionable.

            Okay, so I've said the point is the new line. Let's say we built HS2 as a 120-150mph ballasted track - do it cheap and slowish. We've got a new line, we've got traffic segregation. Great. Just how much do you honestly think we're going to save? The money is in the land, the civils, the legals. Whether you align and build a brand new track for 150 or 200mph is a marginal saving, especially in the UK with high land prices. And this is the sad thing. Nobody - nobody - who has said "let's spend the money on improving the existing network" has any actual actionable proposal for how you would treble capacity on the existing network through upgrades. Nor how they would avoid the HELL of the West Coast Route Modernisation (3x over budget, under-delivered, almost a decade of weekend closures and cancellations - the precise reason they said "yeah, we'll build a new relief line - we're not making that mistake again on the MML or ECML"). There's a few nostalgists who claim the Great Central line should be reopened (it's been built over, and doesn't go to Birmingham). They're also obsessed with the Woodhead Line and tunnels, even though moving the high-voltage Grid lines would cost £1Bn to start with.

            1. MachDiamond Silver badge

              "You want to rebuild every station?"

              Yep.

              Not all of them in the next year or two. It always makes sense to go for the lowest hanging fruit to start. A few get done and see how that's working. It might be easy to update a station where there's room, but also where there's many bottlenecks even if it won't be as easy/cheap.

              As for where to spend the money, it should be obvious to those that have the data. I can't say anything about specifics because I don't have the data to look at. Passenger data is a start, but there also has to be an eye for related projects that will need rail transportation to service it in several years or a decade's time.

              Even in the US, 200mph is too much. The track and carriages have to be built to that spec for the brief times trains would hit those speeds between stops. For very long journeys where high speeds might make sense, flying can make even more sense. A day burned up flying beats 2 days on a train and that sort of train time would be coast to coast in the US which would require coast to coast dedicated and powered trackage to support. I should live so long.

              I see overnight sleepers as one piece for distances that can be covered in 8-10 hours at a moderate speed (50-80mph). If I have a busy schedule, those would let me spend sleeping time on the move rather than faffing around at airports. Not everybody can or will take advantage of that, but I sleep great on a train. City pairs of 400-800 miles apart are the target.

              Eventually, I'd love to see HSR crossing the US x3 (North, central, South) and 2-3 traveling North and South with interconnections to regional services with more stops. The schedules have to line up and also be much more frequent than once per day. One still can't get between Austin, TX and Los Angeles for a weekend to attend an event. The route only runs 3 days per week. It would make not sense to replace what's there with one HSR service per week due to cost over bulking up existing service to 2x/day. The deficit as I understand it is lack of cars/locos. Previously I had wondered why They didn't just add cars as tickets sold out and found out the cars they have were built in the last century and are slowing going out of service as they reach the end of their lives to be used as parts stores for the remaining stock. This has been exacerbating the cart/horse problem. People don't use the system as it doesn't go to enough places and with enough frequency which has lead to less investment which has led to less interest in even considering it. Trains in the US have been making a come back, but that just means more are sold out. People can't take holidays in their Cadillac Escalades due to petrol pricing like they used to. Petrol taxes in California just went up again on 7/1 and there are reports in some out of the way places of it being over $6/gallon so one should plan to top up before those stretches even if they aren't particularly low. Where California goes, others often follow. The worse the idea, the more so.

              Aviation is not a good thing if it can be replaced by more efficient and cleaner ground transportation. People will also need to get out of the mindset of travel=airplane. I've been around the world many times for work and now that I've slowed way down, I'm discovering neat stuff much closer to home. I've also re-discovered trains which has extended my range and would love to see them improve so they aren't as restrictive. There's no way I'll visit an area where the train stops at 2am (if on time, hah) and the town closes at sunset. Leaving might also be in the wee hours and could mean a long trek with luggage from a hotel to the station. One doesn't often find taxis in small towns that operate all night. Stations can also be no more than a covered bench so weather can be an issue.

              1. rg287 Silver badge

                "You want to rebuild every station?"

                Yep.

                So, here's the problem. You're talking about the US, I'm talking about the UK. The US has such shonky infra, that rebuilding is basically inevitable for much of this anyway, and you have space to work with.

                Arbitrarily expanding every local station in the UK to support passing loops is about as realistic as announcing we're going to rebore all the old pre-1970 tube lines to accommodate larger trains. Easier to build a new line which deconflicts the existing line from the express services that are smashing it up, leaving it to support the local and regional services it was designed for.

                Even in the US, 200mph is too much. The track and carriages have to be built to that spec for the brief times trains would hit those speeds between stops.

                You haven't done the maths and you're not bothering to read my replies.

                High Speed Trains take 5-8miles to reach 200mph, so for something like Dallas-Houston or around the mid-west, the train will be cruising at top speed for >90% of the journey. 200mph is absolutely worth it in the US for daytime regional travel. Since this would be a new line, likely with dedicated platforms, you could ensure there are passing places if you want to have some more intermediate stoppers (since in many cases you don't actually have a legacy network seving those places). But supporting 200mph is perfectly reasonable for the non-stop services blowing through - along with the HS sleepers.

                For very long journeys where high speeds might make sense, flying can make even more sense. A day burned up flying beats 2 days on a train and that sort of train time would be coast to coast in the US which would require coast to coast dedicated and powered trackage to support. I should live so long.

                Per above. High Speed SLEEPERS. NYC-LA in 15hours travel (12hr door-to-door in "local time" with time diff - admittedly coming East becomes 18hours - still one day, not two). Going west, depart 7pm, arrive 7am well-rested without losing a travel day arsing around in an airport or being compressed into the smallest seat the airline could get past the FAA.

                For shorter trips like LA-Chicago/Cincinnati, or NYC-Dallas, it's 10hrs travel at 180-200mph. Easy sleeper.

        6. MachDiamond Silver badge

          "A Glasgow train parked in a through-platform for half an hour doing turn-around and crew-change blocks 6-8 potential local services (dwell time of 3 minutes and then shooting on)."

          A station might not be the best place to do a crew change. It might be better if they were done at a short stop elsewhere with any hand-over briefings done phone/radio so one crew gets on and one crew gets off in very short order. This would allow for easier parking for staff and a shuttle could run between there and a station if necessary (or just hired as/when so crew can get to a station for a train home). So much goes on at a station that some things should be shifted to alleviate some of the frenzy. Long distance trains will provision at a service depot before going to the station to pick up passengers in the US. If that sort of thing is planned into the network, there's less to coordinate at public stations.

          1. Roland6 Silver badge

            >"A station might not be the best place to do a crew change."

            It means a crew change is just a slightly longer stop, hence why they tend to be a major stations and/or points in the timetable where services are intended to link. Also rather surprisingly crew also often travel by train to meet the train they will be taking over. Thus train delays and line blockages can cause ripple on problems, as replacement crew become unable to make the rendezvous on time (had this last year, a train failed between stations, it had the crew for my service on it, so a significant delay was caused by the operator having to source another crew and get them via other means to the station). Your proposed solution just adds a further delay causing variables with passengers trapped in a train when the decision is made to cancel and transfer people to another train.

            >" Long distance trains will provision at a service depot before going to the station to pick up passengers in the US."

            At places like Euston, this just creates additional train movements through the station's throat, easier to occupy a platform and turn the train around in 30 minutes by cleaning staff.

            I suspect long distance US style is very different to the UK's two or three London-Scotland services every hour.

            1. MachDiamond Silver badge

              "It means a crew change is just a slightly longer stop,"

              In theory, yes, one would think that would be the case but it may not be if the station is small and parking is an issue or other things mean that it crew can be delayed in getting to the train with so many other things going on. A crew swap isn't taking place so many times each day that a special stop for that would eat up too much time.

          2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

            "Long distance trains will provision at a service depot before going to the station to pick up passengers in the US. If that sort of thing is planned into the network, there's less to coordinate at public stations."

            The UK is small, land can be very expensive and most of the network dates back the invention of the railways, which has it's own in-built limitations. Major stations in large cities usually have multiple platforms so long distance (not very long by US standards!) trains don't always take the space of local trains. Although that very much depends on the city and how much was spent 100+ years ago on future proofing. Sheffield, for example is quite small and has no room for expansion. Newcastle is huge, with many platforms, but also has no room for any further expansion (and with recent developments, is being hemmed in even more tightly) And mostly, the stations are in the city centre, or at least within easy walking distance, because Victorian planning regulations were a bit lax and this new fangled railway thingy seemed quite important so forcibly buying up land and knocking down houses was seen as just something that needed doing for the good of all. Unlike today where "fair market value" has to be paid for Compulsory Purchase Orders and the planning application can take years, and every pressure/activist group will appeal any planning decisions they don't like, sometimes rightfully, other times, well, NYMBYs will be NYMBYs.

          3. rg287 Silver badge

            Long distance trains will provision at a service depot before going to the station to pick up passengers in the US. If that sort of thing is planned into the network, there's less to coordinate at public stations.

            As others have said, this requires that your (passenger) terminus have a through-line to the service depot. This is not the reality of many UK (esp. London) stations, which have constrained station throats. Moving trains from New Street to a depot would impose significant additional traffic on surrounding lines which would block the very passenger services you're trying to provision. Moreover, you're running multiple of these trains per hour. If - instead of a 30-min platform turnaround - you had 30mins in depot and an additional 10-20 each way in transit to the depot, then you'd need more rolling stock. These are not once-daily trains.

            The plan for the Euston HS2 station was 11 platforms. This was because HS2 is designed for 18tph, which means ~9 trains every half hour. So with a 30-min turnaround, you need 9 platforms. Then a tenth if train 10 is a bit early/train 1 is late departing (or the timetable is not precisely 9+9) and an eleventh for contingency (paramedics boarding for an emergency, technical faults, etc).

            Bloody Stupid Johnson reckoned you could magically make do with 6 somehow.

          4. Ian Johnston Silver badge

            A station might not be the best place to do a crew change. It might be better if they were done at a short stop elsewhere with any hand-over briefings done phone/radio so one crew gets on and one crew gets off in very short order.

            There are frequent crew changes on long distance trains in the UK. They happen in stations and you don't notice because they are over in seconds. The only thing which takes time is the checking and restocking the buffet, but that's done while the train is moving. Driver out, driver in happens in the twinkling of an eye.

        7. anothercynic Silver badge

          Hallelujah, someone singing off my hymn sheet!

          Indeed... HS2 was meant to create capacity where capacity constraints exist by shuffling stuff off one line and onto another. Anyone arguing that "they should just add more tracks on the WCML" don't get that for that you need more land, and that costs a *lot* more money in urban areas (think Euston-Dunstable-ish, then Bletchley-Milton Keynes, around Daventry-Rugby, and again Coventry-Birmingham) than virgin land. And even building "next to the M40" is not going to work either because the M40 is a major artery that is also width-constrained along its route. So... you build a new line.

          And yes, Sunak's short-sightedness in cancelling everything between Stafford and Crewe is also ruining improvements across Wales to the Pennines and beyond. I'm glad to see the mayors of Greater Manchester and Liverpool and Birmingham, and the councils inbetween all trying to lobby the Labour government to restore that little bit of extra line to the plan because it makes sense.

        8. Ian Johnston Silver badge

          I used to change trains regularly at Lichfield Trent Valley, which mean that I was on the platform there for about an hour at 5pm. I have just used Real Time Trains to confirm my recollection: the four tracks (two up, two down) of the WCML there carried precisely eleven trains - well, nine, because two were cancelled - in total between 5pm and 6pm. In the following hour, 22 trains. So that's one per track every twenty minutes in teh first hour and every ten minutes in the second. Overcrowded my arse.

        9. Ian Johnston Silver badge

          I used to change trains regularly at Lichfield Trent Valley, which mean that I was on the platform there for about an hour at 5pm. I have just used Real Time Trains to confirm my recollection: the the four tracks (two up, two down) of the WCML there carried precisely eleven trains - well, nine, because two were cancelled - in total between 5pm and 6pm. In the following hour, 22 trains. So that's one per track every twenty minutes in the first hour and every ten minutes in the second. Overcrowded my arse.

      5. John Robson Silver badge

        Rory Sutherland has a great story...

        Looking to increase the speed of the channel tunnel trains and there was a proposal for massive track upgrades for some significant proportion of a billion of whatever currency (doesnt' really matter).

        His suggested alternative: Hire top models and have them serve complimentary champagne to all the passengers.

        The train wouldn't be any faster, but customer would likely ask to have it slowed down... and it would be orders of magnitude cheaper.

      6. Mage Silver badge

        Trains on time

        If there are seats, food and non-alcoholic drinks, inc real tea & coffee, tables, AC mains and WiFi, do we care how long it takes? Last time I was on an early Irish Limerick - Dublin train there was no seats or refreshment or food.. The posh lady lawyer & I sat on floor between carriages. But Kosice [accents missing?] to Brataslava had tables, seats, wifi, mains electricity.

        The HS2 is ill-conceived. Supersonic air travel is now daft.

    2. rg287 Silver badge

      Let me be the first to state that DB should concentrate on having every day normal trains run on time without being cancelled.

      To be fair, they tend to go hand-in-hand.

      Works that raise line speed (re-grading/alignment, relaying track to a higher spec, ironing out sharper bends) tend to improve reliability by virtue of the fact you're doing a bit of a rebuild on them. The higher speed is really a nice side effect. Especially so if they also upgrade signalling, which can give the signallers more headroom in case of contingency/delays (assuming manglement don't just try and cram more trains through instead).

      I'm not sure what work is or has been done on that line, but as it's closed until July 12th, it's seemingly been quite a significant closure/maintenance window - not getting possession for a day or two for a PR stunt.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      making the trains run on time

      "Let me be the first to state that DB should concentrate on having every day normal trains run on time without being cancelled."

      Germany had a guy who made that happen ~90 years ago. It didn't end well.

      1. Dinanziame Silver badge
        Headmaster

        Re: making the trains run on time

        Nah it's Mussolini who made the trains run on thyme.

      2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: making the trains run on time

        And that's Germany's problem

        All Germans believe that the sole cause of the 1930s naughtiness was hyper-inflation

        They also believe that if the inflation target is 2.0% then 2.1% is the start of hyper-inflation

        Therefore the government can't borrow to spend on anything

        It's why it's taken extreme Russians-being-Russian and the US saying "you're on your own guys" for them to risk spending defense budget on buying defence kit from their own companies.

        1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

          Re: making the trains run on time

          > All Germans believe that the sole cause of the 1930s naughtiness was hyper-inflation

          > They also believe that if the inflation target is 2.0% then 2.1% is the start of hyper-inflation

          prejudice, thy name is YAAC... You violated quite a few rules, like "All Germans believe", "sole cause" and so on. When were you last in Germany for a considerable time? Or if only for short vacations, how often? You assume we have history class at the quality level of the USA?

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Without being cancelled is the crucial part - the statistics show a high percentage of local trains on time, but if you're standing on the platform waiting for one, they are reguarly five minutes late at first, then ten minutes, then 15 minutes, before being "cancelled" for "reasons". The train that was 20 minutes late is thus not late at all, unless you were waiting for it.

      1. SundogUK Silver badge

        This. This drives me up the fucking wall.

      2. Tim Almond

        The reliability of trains is really appalling compared to my bus or a car. A Honda Civic will work about 99.9% of days. Trains aren't even close to that.

        Honestly, National Express are far more reliable. I've yet to be on a late or cancelled coach to London.

        1. Raoul Miller

          "The reliability of trains is really appalling compared to my bus or a car. A Honda Civic will work about 99.9% of days. Trains aren't even close to that.

          Honestly, National Express are far more reliable. I've yet to be on a late or cancelled coach to London."

          When I last lived full-time in the UK I also came around to taking the bus rather than the train - because I got tired of either spending the entire journey standing next to the toilets or unsafely in a corridor or having the much-delayed train get me to London after the Tube had shut down for the night.

          Now I don't use the train in the UK because of cost and inconvenience - I would far rather take the train than hire a car, but it is cheaper and takes much less time to drive from Heathrow to Lancashire than it does to take a train into London, a tube or taxi across London, and then 2 or more trains to my destination. A couple of years ago I came to the UK and it was cheaper for me to fly business class on BA to Manchester than it was to take a train. That's insanity.

          By contrast - when I go to France, Germany, the Netherlands, South Korea, and Japan I never hire a car.

        2. Uncle William

          You may not have a National Express cancelled to London but last month our National Express to Heathrow was cancelled with 20 mins warning. It's not like there wasn't a flight to catch or anything important <sarcasm emojii> Fortunately the 14yr old Ford Focus made a timely journey.

        3. Da Weezil

          Had a 50 min wait in Cardiff last week while the 112 service was held for 3 passengers coming (from Birmingham?) by taxi as the connection had failed. 4 days later same service left Birmingham 15 late and despite missing 2 stops where there were no passengers saving a few minutes from the trunk Rd to the edge of town we were still 30 mins late wherein alighted 3 stops from the end of the route

    5. cpage

      Same here

      A few weeks ago we took a trip through Germany to Kiel (excellent ferry from there to Oslo) which involved in total 8 IC/ICE trains. The most punctual of them was only 15 minutes late, three were cancelled in whole or part, three others were about an hour late. Even on those that ran the seat reservations didn't work out as the carriages/seats had been renumbered. The whole experience was horrible. So I totally agree that they need to concentrate on getting their existing trains running properly.

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Italian HS trains

      Just spent a month zooming around Italy using their Frecciarossa system.

      Outstanding. Clean, efficient and timely. Max speed about 300kph.

      Very enjoyable.

      1. munnoch Silver badge

        Re: Italian HS trains

        Agree, always find the Italian trains quite a revelation. Regional trains are very reasonably priced too, the high speed stuff not so much but the high speed network covers pretty much the length and breadth of the country. Some of it at less than high speed admittedly. We did Lecce to Rome and the first bit up to Foggia was reasonably fast, then a slow wander over the mountains towards Naples (that line is being upgraded) and then she picked up her skirts for a dash into Rome. 10 mins late on a 5 hour/300 mile journey for 80 Euros each. I don't expect the trains in the UK to ever match those metrics so long as I live no matter how much money is flung at them.

    7. Nematode Bronze badge
      Stop

      Same as Blighty

      No point in having extra speed trains for 100 miles between stations. Better to try and get all trains reliable, extra capacity, cheaper, etc etc.

      HMG of course (Cameron & cronies at the time) ignored the warnings that HST was a waste of effort and money* as HSTs are only worthwhile above a certain inter-station distance, where n teh UK there is no such thing unless you schedule from, say, London to Edinburgh with no intermediate stops.

      * and people's houses, gardens, farms, etc. all CP'd

  2. Michael Hoffmann Silver badge
    Unhappy

    That after decades of neglect and privatisation they even found a stretch to pull this off is nothing short of amazing. You average German who has had to use DB in the last 10 years, give or take, would only laugh cynically.

    1. abend0c4 Silver badge

      Germany has failed to invest in its infrastructure (not just rail) for decades with the result that much of it is crumbling or even unsafe. The money that needs to be spent will dwarf the amounts "saved".

      Meanwhile, England (and, on paper, Wales) has invested billions in HS2 and has nothing to show for it.

      I don't think the cynicism is confined to Germany.

      1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

        Re : UK has nothing to show for it.

        au contraire.

        There is a construction scar that can be seen from space running from the outskirts of London in a vague N.W direction to Brum. Then, a few bits N.E. of brum that will probably never be used unless it is to store the unused HS2 trains before they get sold to places like Mexico (as is happening with HST units)

        Oh, and we all have a huge hole in our pockets that was used to pay for this thing.

        1. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: Re : UK has nothing to show for it.

          "Oh, and we all have a huge hole in our pockets that was used to pay for this thing."

          Don't forget all of the studies! Lots and lots of studies. Some consultants thank you for their country homes and new Bentley's for that.

          In days past, the rail barons ran roughshod over everything to make sure track kept being laid so their service would be selling tickets as quickly as possible. These days it seems like vast amounts of money are spent to prevent that. I'm not saying that the previous building boom didn't come with enormous abuses, but it's still the same today without actually building anything.

          1. Roland6 Silver badge

            Re: Re : UK has nothing to show for it.

            There are also a lot of other workers eg. cleaners, who have done well out of HS2, they won't be found in country homes with new Bentley's, but the money would have been mostly spent in their local community, with greater economic effect..

            1. Tim Almond

              Re: Re : UK has nothing to show for it.

              But those cleaners could have been doing something more useful. All money spent creates jobs. But it also takes money from elsewhere. Things people would want.

          2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

            Re: Re : UK has nothing to show for it.

            "In days past, the rail barons ran roughshod over everything to make sure track kept being laid so their service would be selling tickets as quickly as possible."

            It wasn't all "roses" for the rail barons. Some had to spend quite significant extra amounts of money to "hide" the railway in cuttings as it crossed over some Lords land in case it spoiled the view. Others had to build tiny, but very ornate stations so the local Lord could use the train without having to travel to the nearest town to board. There are some very ornate and expensive tunnel entrance/exits for similar reasons. But on the whole, I agree, as per my other post, barrelling through some town or city, knocking down buildings and peoples homes so they could have a main line station in the city centre was very much a priority for the rail company and the town/city council bigwigs.

        2. AndrueC Silver badge
          Meh

          Re: Re : UK has nothing to show for it.

          sold to places like Mexico (as is happening with HST units)

          To be fair the Class 43 locos are old, the last of them being built in 1982. They are also end of the line technology, really. The world's fastest diesels because, truthfully, electricity is proving to be a better motive source for trains and no-one could see the point of developing diesel traction any further. The coaches are equally knackered - I don't think they even have A/C fitted so presumably the Mexicans will have to retrofit that.

          So what is basically happening is that some rolling stock that no longer meets the requirements of a modern railway system are being sold to a country with a less modern railway system. Hopefully they will be able to keep them adequately maintained for a few more years. It's a better end to the Class 43 story than just scrapping them.

          No-one outside of railway nostalgia enthusiasts wants to see the Class 43s running. They are last century's trains.

          1. This post has been deleted by its author

          2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
            Coat

            Re: Re : UK has nothing to show for it.

            Are not all "diesels" electric by design? They just happen to carry diesel generators with them to make their own electricity :-)

            1. MachDiamond Silver badge

              Re: Re : UK has nothing to show for it.

              "Are not all "diesels" electric by design? They just happen to carry diesel generators with them to make their own electricity :-)"

              Pretty much except for small specialty locos. Building and maintaining 4,000bhp transmissions and clutches isn't that easy.

              1. Ian Johnston Silver badge

                Re: Re : UK has nothing to show for it.

                Pretty much except for small specialty locos.

                Guess what the UK classes 150, 153, 155, 156, 158, 159 (Sprinters) 165, 166 (Networkers), 168, 170, 171, 172 (Turbostars), 180 (Coradias), 195, 196 and 197 (Civities) DMUs all have in common.

                They are diesel-hydraulic.

          3. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: Re : UK has nothing to show for it.

            "The world's fastest diesels because, truthfully, electricity is proving to be a better motive source for trains and no-one could see the point of developing diesel traction any further."

            For the UK, perhaps. In the US the distances are vast so diesel electric is going to be around for quite some time to come. Some new locos are being built as hybrids (tribrids?) that can take power from overhead lines or use the diesel to make leccy. I wonder why there isn't the option built in to hook on battery tenders for places where there isn't such a huge gap to bridge between powered sections of track. Some of the tunnels in the Eastern US are very tight which makes installing overhead lines nigh on impossible without layering on loads of money (for studies, mainly). The tunnels aren't miles long and keeping diesel fumes out will be healthier as well.

            1. AndrueC Silver badge
              Happy

              Re: Re : UK has nothing to show for it.

              That's a fair point and of course the replacement for the Class 43s are the Class 221/222s which are also diesel electric. But those don't have the top speed that the 43s have. So perhaps I should have said that for the purposes of speed diesel is no longer in the frame. There are still several UK lines that don't have electricity so I reckon diesel will be around for a while still even here.

              So really I suppose it's just that the 43 fleet is old rather than specifically being too old to be used. I suppose they've just reached that point that all machines reach where the cost of keeping them running and/or updating them no longer makes sense. Interestingly I did some more research last night and they've also been exported to Nigeria. So there's life in the old dog yet..but lordy I hope they install A/C.

              1. WaveSynthBeep

                Re: Re : UK has nothing to show for it.

                The HST stock does have A/C - anything without openable windows must. But the problem with the Nigerian exports is they're using these 125mph thoroughbreds on a metro service stopping every few minutes. They'll be absolutely wrecked after a few years.

      2. FirstTangoInParis Silver badge

        Just last week a friend travelled by train until it stopped due to a bus hitting a rail bridge. The rail replacement bus took so long to arrive that they eventually continued by train.

        Why are busses not fitted with collision detection sensors wired to the brakes like they are in current cars? Before you say busses are older, most of them are relatively new, and iirc trucks had anti lock brakes long before most cars did.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Because adding and/or retrofitting would be hugely expensive compared to the actual costs of a rare event.

          On top of that you will likely get so many false positives from overhanging trees and bridges that are high enough for the bus to pass but low enough to trigger the detector that the collision detection would be a liability in its own right.

        2. Alan Brown Silver badge

          "Why are busses not fitted with collision detection sensors wired to the brakes like they are in current cars?"

          More to the point, why did the bus proceed towards a low bridge? If the driver is paying that little attention they should never be in charge of a passenger vehicle (not even a car)

          It's relatively cheap and easy to protect low bridges - fit a "can opener" in front of them - but for some reason this is rarely done

          Yes, such devices utterly trash the high vehicle but that's exactly what they're intended to do. Mandatory minimum disqualification of drivers would help a lot too - people are best persuaded when it affects their wallet

          1. Korev Silver badge
            Facepalm

            The can opener would probably punish the passengers more than the bus driver. Passengers arriving looking like a boiled egg with the top removed wouldn't do wonders to get drivers out of their cars...

          2. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge

            Why did the bus proceed towards a low bridge?

            Most bus routes wouldn't pass under bridges which are too low for obvious reasons so it's either a double-decker being run on a single-decker route or the bus has gone off-piste because or roadworks, other diversion, or a driver has simply got lost, taken the wrong turn on an unfamiliar route.

            As for not stopping before collision; that often proves to be a single-decker driver forgetting he's driving a double-decker, poor judgement through stress of not knowing where the fuck they are, and there have been cases of stated height in the cabin being incorrect, or bridge height not as correct as it could be, especially if arched.

            I heard one tale of a road being resurfaced making all the difference between success and front page news. Someone had to be the first to discover that problem.

            And we have to note it is a rather rare event.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              A long time ago my dad, a bus driver, ripped off the A/C unit from a bus while driving under a bridge. It was fine with the old ones without aircon, not so much with the stuff (perhaps just condenser and fans, not sure) installed on top, about 30cm thick.

              He had a few pax help to load it in the luggage compartment and kept going.

              1. Roland6 Silver badge
                Joke

                Bet it wasn't as spectacular or as embarassing as this one (from 0:36 sec.):

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4JH0vRJvQE

            2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

              The move towards uber-style employment of drivers on long-distance coach routes often causes problems, not least because they may be using sat navs that are not designed for buses. I've sat in one with the driver, clearly visiting somewhere for the first time, merrily drove into the bus station via the exit.

              Still, they are cheap. Which is all that matters for many.

          3. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            >Why are busses not fitted with collision detection sensors wired to the brakes like they are in current cars?

            The problem is that rail bridges can appear from nowhere so quickly that it's difficult to make an automated system to stop them in time

            1. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge

              Round my way there are break-beam detectors straddling the roads approaching bridges so "stop" signs are flashing well before an over-height vehicle meets the bridge.

              That's got to be easier, cheaper, and probably more effective, than fitting out every bus and lorry, but they aren't used everywhere.

              It often seems they arrive after the event, following the huge cost and disruption involved, which they would likely have prevented.

              1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

                "It often seems they arrive after the event, following the huge cost and disruption involved, which they would likely have prevented."

                It also depends on who is responsible. Local or County Council, Government etc. And there are 1000's of height restricted bridges and tunnels across the UK, each one probably costing many £1000's to install, each one requiring planning, eco studies, power lines running to the site, court cases thanks to protestors wanting to know why they can't have a badger tunnel or toad crossing installed at the same time and tying up the process in legal cases. For EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. of course, probably running into £billions across the entire road/rail network.

                This is why sensible ideas rarely work in the real world, especially if it involves government, local or otherwise. A lot of it is arse covering too, as in not being seen to "waste" money. So they have defined formulae based on numbers of accidents, severity and death counts. Otherwise some smart arse will come along and accuse them of "wasting" money because there have been no accidents (ie the accident prevention scheme worked!)

              2. David Hicklin Silver badge

                > Round my way there are break-beam detectors straddling the roads approaching bridges so "stop" signs are flashing well before an over-height vehicle meets the bridge.

                I have seen lorries happily ignore them and keep going....the remaining gap looked incredibly small...

            2. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

              https://www.youtube.com/@11foot8plus8/videos

              1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

                Some good examples there of vehicles which probably have a "factory" height and then have reefer or aircon units added on top increasing the height :-)

                (and many dipshit drivers who don't know the vehicle height!)

            3. AndrueC Silver badge
              Joke

              Yeah, I have the same problem with trees on golf courses. I swear the buggers grow up just to spite me.

              1. Korev Silver badge
                Coat

                We should support the local fauna and flora, I am 4-Wood

          4. Ian Johnston Silver badge

            It's relatively cheap and easy to protect low bridges - fit a "can opener" in front of them - but for some reason this is rarely done

            Legal reasons. The driver can claim that they would have stopped for the bridge and that the damage done is the result of an unnecessary obstruction.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Where there's claim ...

          Bus are currently fitted with low bridge warning systems. On one route in my area this gave sixteen alarms for three bridges. Two were off route and one was technically a low bridge but high enough for the buses to get under.

          I Repeatedly warned that these alarms were excessive and get ignored by the drivers. I was informed that the system was fixed and could not be changed. Needless to say two weeks after one of the off route bridges was hit they discovered the system could be changed. The high bridge was removed and the other warnings were cut. Now there is six alarms for two off route bridges.

          As for the possibility of a collision avoidance system, if this operated any thing like the one in my fathers car I'd hate one having to deal with the insurance claims from passengers "thrown" in the random sudden stops.

        4. anothercynic Silver badge

          If you think buses are bad - Network Rail records way more *lorries* hitting railway bridges than any other vehicles. Lorry drivers are meant to know what height their vehicle is, and it appears they don't and end up ramming their 40 tonner into railway bridges again and again and again!

          It's pure negligence by the drivers of those vehicles, nothing else.

        5. munnoch Silver badge

          "Why are busses not fitted with collision detection sensors wired to the brakes like they are in current cars"

          They are, they are called "drivers".

          On modern cars they are called collision *mitigation* systems. They don't prevent collisions, they merely attempt to reduce the impact(sic.) of an inevitable collision. As pointed out, a system guaranteed to prevent all collisions would false positive so often you'd be kangarooing down the road. Efficacy or something.

        6. rg287 Silver badge

          Why are busses not fitted with collision detection sensors wired to the brakes like they are in current cars?

          Well, the majority of bridge strikes are HGVs, and they can have variable heights - a tractor unit towing a container one day, a refrigerated trailer the next and a flatbed with (part of) a mining excavator the day after. The driver would have to fit the collision sensor to their load each day, which... opens substantial room for error.

          Actual buses hitting bridges are extremely rare because the route planners don't route them under bridges that their fleet can't fit under! It'd only happen to the first service on day one!

          Presumably the bus that hit your bridge was a poorly driven coach, or some charter thing in an area the driver didn't know, and they were not paying attention to their clearances.

      3. Dinanziame Silver badge
      4. rg287 Silver badge

        Meanwhile, England (and, on paper, Wales) has invested billions in HS2 and has nothing to show for it.

        I mean, the project is half-built. That's something to show for it. These things don't happen overnight.

        Of course HS2 had a lot of teething problems - which started with the Tories setting it up as a Ltd from scratch instead of getting Network Rail to commission it (they have literally some experience in railways). And then constant political interference and second-guessing the engineers has ballooned the cost further (Bloody Stupid Johnson threw a billion quid worth of work in the bin when he decided to shrink Euston from 11 to 6 platforms to "save money"). Parking the site, refusing to commit to actually building the Euston complex and having people sit on their hands is also not free.

        It was telling that when HS2 Ltd were reckoning that Phase 1 would cost £35Bn, insiders at NR were guesstimating ~£45-50Bn just from eyeballing the public information, which was about spot on.1 If politicos allowed the engineers to get on with it at the speed of engineering, it'd be more or less on time and on budget. Despite politically-motivated cries of crisis and mismanagement, at the point where Sunak cancelled Phase 2a, HS2 Ltd had not touched their contingency fund in 18months. Hardly a project in crisis!

        1. Media of course unfairly claims Phase 1 will cost £60Bn+, but this is a misrepresentation - that's "the total amount HS2 Ltd will have spent when Phase 1 opens" - which of course includes a lot of survey work, design, legal and land acquisition for Phase 2a & 2b. It includes the cost of fixed infrastructure overheads like building railheads at aggregate quarries, which will now support 120km of construction instead of 300km - so the entire cost of that infra is apportioned against Phase 1 instead of ~35% of the cost. You also have the massive apprenticeship schemes which have been run to actually train people how to do this, which will now go to waste and we will allow those people to drift off to other sectors instead of rolling them onto subsequent phases. Propotionately speaking, building less costs more.

        1. abend0c4 Silver badge

          HS2 had a lot of teething problems

          Unfortunately, it makes little economic or operational sense in its current limited form. In terms of passenger capacity to Manchester it may be worse than the present route. It would have done comparatively little for the destinations further away from London with longer journey times and now does nothing (apart from reduce the chances of more modest rail investments in the future). Admittedly there will be more capacity on the WCML between London and Birmingham, but the lack of paths is worst north of Rugby where there will now be no improvement.

          I think we're not looking so much at teething problems as the growing tusks of a while elephant.

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            >Unfortunately, it makes little economic or operational sense in its current limited form

            Wasn't the economic case that it would make Birmingham a London commuter town and therefore raise Birmingham house prices to London levels, therefore making everyone in the West Midlands instantly rich and likely to vote Tory?

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              If that were the case, surely Labour would have cancelled it already?

              1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

                Labour Cancel a Tory policy? You have to think of what the Daily Mail would say. What are you a Corbynist terrorist or something ?

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Half-built is not built and the business case looks shakier than ever, along with spiralling costs.

        3. MachDiamond Silver badge

          "You also have the massive apprenticeship schemes which have been run to actually train people how to do this, which will now go to waste and we will allow those people to drift off to other sectors instead of rolling them onto subsequent phases. "

          The cost of NASA gets similar sorts of grief. There's a cost to building a thing, but there's a cost to building the tools that builds the thing that can continue on making other things. During Apollo, some of NASA's budget needed to be allocated to education. Lots of classroom materials were handed out and teachers could receive what amounted to a course for them in space and rockets. I see that as "apprenticeship lite". There isn't a week that goes by that I don't learn of a new job/profession that I had never acknowledged before. The US is severely lacking in Tool & Die makers. So much manufacturing has gone overseas and, at the same time, it's not something that might be mentioned during career counseling. It's bad enough to not be making thing in-country, but to lose the core competencies to make the tools to make the things should be scaring politicians. Why does a fighter jet cost $1bn, there's only 12 people and one small company that can make the actuators that move the control surfaces in the US and they charge all they can get for them (bent for mild exaggeration).

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            >Why does a fighter jet cost $1bn,

            Cos there are only two companies in the USA that make them, they both have plants in the districts of all the politicians on the funding comittee. Anyway what are you going to do, buy European or Japanese ones ?

            1. MachDiamond Silver badge

              "Cos there are only two companies in the USA that make them"

              Yes, and those companies need feed-in suppliers for the bits and pieces. Ideally and sometimes legally, those suppliers must be domestic. Two companies may be all that's left that will design and assemble the jets, but hundreds of companies make the parts.

      5. Fred Daggy
        Holmes

        Common sense loses to politics ... again ... news at 11

        In my travels around the globe, seen it all before.

        In general, there are NO VOTES in well funded, maintained, infrastructure. There are votes in cutting the ribbon on another bridge, road, hostpital, etc. Well, the photo op that such an event brings. Maintenance does not get junkets, kickbacks, freebies, upgrades or the chance to spend money on the politicians pet projects. Photo opportunities get on re-elected and the chance for patronage.

        Then, we need to look at the electoral cycle. Often, the electoral cycle dictates the timings to "only things that can be delivered inside the electoral cycle". 1 in a thousang get through to a 2nd cycle, but only if the winner things they are going to get in a second time and they can save this project up for opening just before 2nd election. 'Tis a rare bird indeed that makes it to the 3rd election or beyond, because there are so many things at play.

        No politician wants to do the hard work of delivering a project just for the other side to take credit.

        I am looking particularly at Australia here where a 3 year federal election cycle means that the federal government follows the cycle of Y1: Blame the previous govt for a budget black hole, Y2: Do nothing and build a war chest and Y3: Make promises to nearly everyone with a magic pot of gold. None, however, is actually spent on REAL projects that help any section of society. State Governments are only a bit better.

        The Swiss and the Singaporeans seem to be the only ones that get it right. The Swiss, because the consensus politics is more or less enforced by local democracy (eg, citizens can reject laws and propose their own law and even constitutional amendments). The Singaporeans, because I don't think there will ever be a real change in the ruling party, and they seem to have found that you need infrastructure to make an economy tick (with the profits for the top that that brings in).

        1. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: Common sense loses to politics ... again ... news at 11

          "In general, there are NO VOTES in well funded, maintained, infrastructure. There are votes in cutting the ribbon on another bridge, road, hostpital, etc. Well, the photo op that such an event brings. Maintenance does not get junkets, kickbacks, freebies, upgrades or the chance to spend money on the politicians pet projects. Photo opportunities get on re-elected and the chance for patronage."

          Improvements to an existing network isn't "new, shiny". The thing is, though, that a well maintained transportation network quietly working in the background facilitates all sorts of business activity. It doesn't have to pay for itself out of the fare box in a publicly owned setting. Roads don't pay for themselves and even toll-roads and bridge tolls don't often pay for the upkeep. What they do it offset that maintenance. There's no way to add lanes to the Golden Gate bridge so adding a hurdle to using it, even in one direction makes people think about the trip across.

        2. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: Common sense loses to politics ... again ... news at 11

          "I am looking particularly at Australia here where a 3 year federal election cycle means that the federal government follows the cycle of Y1: Blame the previous govt for a budget black hole, Y2: Do nothing and build a war chest and Y3: Make promises to nearly everyone with a magic pot of gold."

          At NASA, many projects are filtered by whether they can be done in one Presidential cycle or not. Too often, something will get an approval to go forward and a new administration/congress will take an axe to it as a wasteful remanent of the previous mob. Big shiny things might get enough momentum to keep going, but a science mission to measure something about the environment with some new instrument will get the choppy chop as it's considered "boring".

      6. AndrueC Silver badge

        Meanwhile, England (and, on paper, Wales) has invested billions in HS2 and has nothing to show for it.

        Sorta (and to be honest I do think HS2 has been a shit show that should never have been started) but apparently 30,000 people most of whom will be skilled or highly skilled are enjoying gainful employment as a result. That's a lot of families being supported and of course they will be spending their money in the wider economy.

        Whilst I feel kind of sick defending government expenditure it has to be noted that they the biggest single source of money injected into the economy. The only aspect of HS2 I truly object to is the environmental damage.

        1. Tim Almond

          All spending creates jobs and also takes money from the economy. £5 more that you are taxed for HS2 is a book you can't buy.

          If we gave people doing road repair teaspoons instead of mechanical diggers we'd create even more jobs.

          HS2 means £100bn that would have been spent on nicer clothes, cinemas, better meals in restaurants doesn't happen.

    2. rg287 Silver badge

      Germany is a weird example of public transport done brilliantly and dreadfully.

      On the one hand, local S-Bahn and U-Bahn are run by the city or the state (Lander), who have the tax powers to raise funds, and the local interest to invest in such schemes without having to go begging and scraping to Berlin (as UK cities have to with Westminster/Treasury).

      These schemes are frequently brilliant, offering reliable and cost-effective local and regional travel.

      Nationally however, Deutsche Bahn are a bloody awful, hamstrung no doubt by a lack of investment from the Federal Government, with much of the railway in about the same shape it was following reunification. Going West-East remains markedly more difficult than going North-South, and the bits and bobs of high-speed and rare and interspersed with incredibly slow sections. A train can get up to 160mph and then be back down to 80mph. They've never really built an LGV equivalent, just sped up bits of existing track (or put in some dedicated express lines along a regional line where the corridor allows). Thy do seem to have some unique problems though, including a couple of head-on-collisions (which literally shouldn't be possible - and unlike the recent Cambrian line or Salisbury crashes, these were not a case of a train jumping points because of low adhesion - just two trains running into each other on a track where there should only be one train).

      This isn't entirely fair because there are good bits. But the German national network has basically suffered the same disinterest that the UK network has. The only difference is that our local transport is crap as well.

      1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

        Local transport executives do have the right to contract out services, but the infrastructure is still owned and "maintained" by Deutsche Bahn. In addition, many councils and states don't have the money that's needed for investment, so what used to be good services are slowly being wound down. For example, my local station is on one of the busiest commuter lines in Germany but the service got so unreliable that they downgraded it from three services an hour to two. It's currently being repaired at several places thus the "rail replacement services" at night, which can easily add 15 minutes to a 10 minute journey.

        We're also getting a snazzy new tram line for the airport, but the council next door can no longer afford to maintain the relays of its servcice: new lines often receive state and federals grants to be built but the councils have to pay for running costs out of their budgets.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          "We're also getting a snazzy new tram line for the airport"

          I'm guessing you're referring to Duesseldorf (the U81, delayed until next year).

          "For example, my local station is on one of the busiest commuter lines in Germany but the service got so unreliable that they downgraded it from three services an hour to two. It's currently being repaired at several places thus the "rail replacement services" at night, which can easily add 15 minutes to a 10 minute journey."

          Assuming that you're in Dusseldorf, a lot of the problems/delays on the East-West mainline in that part of Germany are due to decades of delayed overhaul work on the railway bridge in Cologne / Koeln (and associated track) being put off again and again until things got to the point that it got so bad that the work couldn't be put off any more due to safety reasons.

      2. Antron Argaiv Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        DB may be bloody awful, hamstrung, etc, but they are MILES better than US passenger service (if you can even find it).

    3. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Yes, the situation from the mid-1990s until a few years ago was similar to Britain after The Beeching Report: lines and stations closed and the rest maintained less frequently, if at all – no longer pruning trees was a favorite. 15 - 20 years of that will take 15 - 20 years of more than normal investment to get back to normal. At the time, privatisation was considered the way to open the railways for new investment, just as had happened in the UK… Things aren't helped by a law that enforces a strict per km pricing.

      My last few trips have been pretty instense: > 2 hours coming back from Munich; body obstructing the track (yes, I felt the impact), rerouting because of a signal failure, and last week more than 4 hours delay coming back from Berlin due storm damage of the power lines. This could have been compounded with a trip on the local "rail replacement service", but at 1:30 in the morning, I bit the bullet and took the taxi for the last 20 km instead. Really awful but at least we got back and the air conditioning largely did its job. The storm went on the cause even more damage in and around Berlin, and, while some of that was exacerbated by insufficient maintenance, climate change is leading to extremely violent if localised storms, even tornadoes.

      My last trip on UK rail was more expensive and involved more than one cancellation with no transfer of seat reservation. Oh what larks!

    4. anothercynic Silver badge

      Unfortunately this is the case for quite a few things - Autobahn viaducts, viaducts in cities (Berlin and Hamburg to name two), various train lines (Hamburg-Berlin has been under intense maintenance for a year)... The idea that money should be budgeted for regular maintenance or upgrades just seems to be foreign to politicians in Berlin while the likes of Herr Pichler and Frau Bieseler of Bad Kaltstedt plan this into their budgets every year...

      And unfortunately, like the US, the German state is a federation, so the states have a lot of sway in how budgets are created and money is spent. And all too often the likes of DB are not on the map because after all, they're a private enterprise, ja? Actually nein, they aren't... the federal government is still the principal shareholder.

      I will give DB and Siemens credit though - The ICE is a pretty reliable platform and to see it move on in its development is a good thing because inevitably, we might see some of them at St Pancras (although no doubt SNCF will drag its feet giving approval, via the CTIC, to a German train using the tunnel, nevermind the fact that the modern Eurostars are all Siemens-built based on the ICE platform).

      1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

        The ICEs are better on existing rails than TGVs and are more comfortable but I think it's the drive train that's the biggest difference: the TGVs still have huge engines for pulling, whereas the ICEs of the more recent generations use electric motors in individual carriages.

        1. anothercynic Silver badge

          The newest TGVs also use distributed traction because it makes more common sense to do so.

          1. Charlie Clark Silver badge
            Thumb Up

            Ah, I didn't know that. Yes, it does make more sense, but it makes things individual carriages more complicated, expensive and more difficult to maintain: one of the reasons (along with the toilets) that third generation ICEs had so many problems. Again, once the car industry got involved in the area – direct electric motors for cars – problems started getting solved.

  3. SimonSL

    To be fair, that one was a test for the track, the german record on rails is at 406.9 km/h - from 1988.

    1. FirstTangoInParis Silver badge

      One wonders if this was the only track in the whole of Germany that could be used. If this was the UK, it would likely have been tested on the track they used to check locomotives crash testing nuclear waste containers.

      https://youtu.be/Zv8xnmOHeCE?si=HxXkhO2CLNefbVK7

      1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

        I thought exactly the same. But then someone hinted me to OpenRailwayMap. Great site! Click "Max Speeds" in the upper left. And there I saw about three possible candidates. Still sad, but more than one.

        1. ICL1900-G3 Silver badge

          ORM

          Thanks for that... I never knew it existed. Brilliant.

    2. Alan Brown Silver badge

      In practical terms, 300-350km/h is about the maximum for railed vehicles.

      Above that, hunting oscillations become a serious issue (perhaps mitigated by gyros but still a major issue) but more importantly the overhead wiring takes an absolute battering from the pantographs and maintenance costs rise sharply as a result

      French TGV speed tests required especially modified trains with larger wheels and a full inspection of the track/overheads afterwards

      It's less about the trains falling to bits as the infrastructure doing so. Proving you CAN go that fast gives a safety margin at lower speeds

      1. rg287 Silver badge

        Above that, hunting oscillations become a serious issue (perhaps mitigated by gyros but still a major issue) but more importantly the overhead wiring takes an absolute battering from the pantographs and maintenance costs rise sharply as a result

        French TGV speed tests required especially modified trains with larger wheels and a full inspection of the track/overheads afterwards

        Yeah, they also increased the wire tension to deal with the high speed run.

        The whole track section had to be reconfigured specially, and then put back for normal running.

        It's not that you can't do it but as you say, maintenance costs rise rapidly above 250mph.

        In fairness, some of this can be alleviated with modern techniques - the French used ballast for much of their LGVs and faster running will smash up the ballast quicker and require more frequent tamping/reballasting. HS2 is using slab track which allows better dimensional rigidity and doesn't settle or need reballasting. This is part of the future proofing (or "gold-plating" depending who you speak to) to potentially run at higher speeds if vehicle design catches up. The HS2 alignment itself is good for >400kmh, but that is as much for passenger comfort and maintenance as anything. If you're building it from scratch, there's no reason not to keep it arrow-straight and give your passengers the best ride. And of course straight tracks require less maintenance than bends, so it's just all-round good design.

        1. david 12 Silver badge

          What I had not appreciated until I saw the video, is that fast running on a smooth improved track, is just as rattling and jarring as an old train on an old track. They crank the speed up to the new safe limit, and the train jumps and twitches, and the passengers sway and jerk.

          1. anothercynic Silver badge

            Unless you're in Japan where the Shinkansen is, by my own experience, almost smooth as silk. I suspect that this is also a reason why the 8xx series Hitachi trains that are plying their trade in the UK now had a bit of a problem a year or two ago with one of the aluminium fastenings... Built for too high a standard where shaking, rattling and rolling (aka hunting) was not an issue, and our, ahem, less than super-smooth train tracks hammered things repeatedly so hard that micro-cracks started forming. :-/

            1. Spazturtle Silver badge

              Japan has fully privatised rail though which own the tracks and trains on their lines so they are fully in control and have an incentive to offer a good customer experience.

  4. Andy Non Silver badge

    Speed risk

    Can't help wondering how safe such ultra-fast trains would be if they hit an obstruction on the line or were deliberately derailed by terrorist acts. Vast lengths of line would need to be actively monitored for any suspicious activity.

    1. Alan Brown Silver badge

      Re: Speed risk

      This question is answered in a number of TGV crash tests - and an inspection of TGV trackside fencing

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Speed risk

        SNCF runs empty sweeper TGVs on many tracks before the first passenger train of the day, to deal with any obstructions. It's rare that they hit anything, and when they do it's the obstruction which comes off worst. The rigid design of TGV trainsets means that derailment is very unlikely.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Speed risk

      There are thousands of kilometers of railroads where trains have been going faster than 300km/h for decades. Works well so far.

    3. jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid Silver badge

      Re: Speed risk

      I'm often flabbergasted by the sheet amount of energy in one of those things whizzing along.

      Quick comparison of two very different things:

      A "three capitals" TGV (ie the ones that go between London and Paris) can be 800 tonnes and do 300km/h. That's about 2.8MJ of kinetic energy.

      A US GBU57 bunker busting bomb (that uses freefall kinetic energy to punch a hole through the ground), if laughed from 20,000ft and neglecting air resistance, will have 0.9MJ of KE when it hits the ground.

      So a TGV at high speed has about 3x more kinetic energy than a bunker busting bomb, very different penetrating capability but probably more capacity for carnage at ground level if things really go wrong.

      1. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: Speed risk

        "So a TGV at high speed has about 3x more kinetic energy than a bunker busting bomb, very different penetrating capability but probably more capacity for carnage at ground level if things really go wrong."

        In the case of a HSR accident, the focus will be on the number of women and children casualties followed by males that have procreated and on down the line. Fortunately for the military, they don't need to stuff a load of women and children into the bunker buster bombs.

    4. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: Speed risk

      "Can't help wondering how safe such ultra-fast trains would be if they hit an obstruction on the line or were deliberately derailed by terrorist acts. Vast lengths of line would need to be actively monitored for any suspicious activity."

      They DO need to be monitored and they are in various ways. The increased cost of doing that on an ongoing basis is another con to HSR. At least, one against HSR "everywhere" thinking.

  5. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

    "without falling to bits"

    Literally my thought. Since the pseudo-privatisation nearly 30 years ago it has been going downhill.

    If you can understand German: Punctuality test from 1963. Worst of that day was about a minute off. And that was the time where some steam engine trains were still in normal service. People used trains running nearby the house to adjust their time. It was like the until around 1998...

    1. Baird34

      Re: "without falling to bits"

      Bhut, something, something, market efficiency.

    2. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: "without falling to bits"

      I went interrailing in 1999 and Germans were quite uphappy that their ICE trains often arrived a couple of minutes late. I'm sure they'd be very happy these days if that were the case.

      1. Someone Else Silver badge

        Re: "without falling to bits"

        Can you say "Enshittification"? I knew you could...

      2. Baird34

        Re: "without falling to bits"

        You can bet your bottom Deutsche Mark that the unhappiness at a few minutes late was used to explain why privatisation was the solution.

        1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

          Re: "without falling to bits"

          Nope, it was the promise for more progress, faster development, better customer experience. Most German knew back that that it was a bad idea.

      3. may_i Silver badge

        Re: "without falling to bits"

        I was in Germany a couple of months ago travelling south from Hamburg airport. My ICE train was 1.5 hours late arriving at Hamburg HBF. This kind of delay is the new normal for Deutsche Bahn these days.

        1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

          Re: "without falling to bits"

          Oh, then you should research "Potfalla Wende". The TL:DR variant: The train is SO late it would, not does, block the following train it skipped the last three or four stations of the route and did the 180° turn earlier (therefore the word "Wende"). The delay to trigger that was, or still is, around the "40 minutes late" mark. The waiting people at the station love it.

          Search for the keyword "Bahnmining", you will find a nice CCC presentation from David Kriesel, possibly with English subtitles, about detailed analysis of public available data. That is, BTW, THAT German guy who analyzed and exposed the Xerox scan JBIG2 encoding behaviour in 2013. Recommended read too.

      4. Ian Johnston Silver badge

        Re: "without falling to bits"

        Fifteen years ago I visited a friend in Klein Winternheim and to continue my journey south I had to change from a local train to an express in Mainz. The DB website gave me a six minute change, so I asked him if he thought that would be OK. "Of course" he said "Mainz station isn't that big". His only thought was about the time it would take to get from one platform to another; the idea that my incoming train might be late never even crossed his mind.

        And now, in 2025, I allow at least an hour for any change in Germany and make sure that I am never relying on the last train/connection on my route. How the mighty have fallen.

  6. A Non e-mouse Silver badge

    Maglevs

    Maglevs are great in theory, but their cost is astronomical compared to traditional rail.

    1. ICL1900-G3 Silver badge

      Re: Maglevs

      And use a lot of energy. Levitation doesn't come free and trains are very heavy.

    2. RMclan

      Re: Maglevs

      We had maglev way before the Chinese back in 1984, but unfortunately ours isn't still running. It did about 40mph on the 600m run from Birmingham International Station to Birmingham Airport.

      1. rg287 Silver badge

        Re: Maglevs

        We had maglev way before the Chinese back in 1984, but unfortunately ours isn't still running.

        The Shanghai Maglev isn't exactly a great success either. They've wound it down to 186mph from the headline 268mph to save on maintenance, which still does the journey in under 10 minutes.

        Because it's a short airport route (18miles) it barely hit the peak speed anyway, much less spent any time cruising. The average speed is still 139mph (just 16 down from the previous 155mph).

        They could have just built a regular train. The Japanese have been at it forever and still don't really have it working to production reliability.

        Trouble with maglev is it's mutually incompatible and can't integrate with existing lines or do points or switching well. It only works as a Point-to-Point service, and you can only really justify that if you already had a saturated HSR network that was overflowing to the point where you wanted to bump your Edinburgh-London passengers onto a new direct line which didn't even stop at Newcastle or Leeds. Then leave your HS line for the intermediate travel.

        1. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: Maglevs

          "They could have just built a regular train. "

          I agree, but I'm also glad they built an entire route in the real world for all to see.

          I've thought many things were bad ideas and should never be funded and had to reverse myself when it worked for a particular use case. There's also plenty where my opinion has been vindicated. I'm not convinced that there is a use case for Maglev that can't be done another way faster and cheaper.

        2. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: Maglevs

          "It only works as a Point-to-Point service, and you can only really justify that if you already had a saturated HSR network that was overflowing to the point where you wanted to bump your Edinburgh-London passengers onto a new direct line which didn't even stop at Newcastle or Leeds. "

          That's a good way of putting my objections to HSR in the US. The regular trains service hasn't been built out to its potential and I don't think that HSR is going to displace air travel for longer routes. Dollar for dollar to get people out of plane and into trains, the money would be better spent and service more passengers elsewhere.

          I can look at my travel and see that my trip lengths are all bunched at the left hand (short distance) side of the graph. Where the scale is equal to half way across the US (1,200mi), the data points can be averaged to zero. My shortest trips are going to be in the car other than walking across the street to have a chat with my neighbor, that's not going to change. More options in the 300-800mi range would suit me. I'd prefer the trips on the longer end be overnight. In 2024 I did a trip like that to see a band play on their last ever tour. Left one evening and arrived in the city where they were playing the next morning. I saw them that night and caught the return train the next morning for an overnight trip home. Not cheap, but it was worth it. I could have flown which would have been ~8-10 hours from doorstep to hotel and again on the return. Those would have been entire days set ablaze instead of one day out of town even though the time traveling was much longer.

    3. David Hicklin Silver badge

      Re: Maglevs

      And if you thought building HS2 was expensive and ripped up chunks of the countryside....

  7. Pope Popely

    Talking about steam in production: In April 2024 a classic steam locomotive was booked to actually pull railway building material thru southern germany.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNDa-Gs97No

    Also, are you wondering why the Bahn waits for failure of railways instead on maintenance? Basically, fixing is on taxpayer, maintenance on DB.

    1. werdsmith Silver badge

      In the UK steam locomotives run on the main lines for charter services.

      One of the steam locomotives is Peppercorn class Tornado which was built in 2008. It has a German boiler.

  8. lglethal Silver badge
    FAIL

    Privatisation for the win!

    This is what happens with privatisation without hand rails.

    Any nationalised firm, especially one that is a model of happy customer service (I was going to say efficiency but DB could have been bleeding cash for all I know) should have laws laid down about the following, that must be obeyed, even after privatisation:

    1) Maximum X% of profit going to shareholders. Any other profit is reinvested in the firm.

    2) Maximum salary (including all share options, and other bonus bollocks) for C-Suite capped to X times the average employee salary.

    3) Bonuses for the C-Suite are cancelled for any 12 month period in which 1% or more of employees are "let go, made redundant, downsized, or any other HR bollocks which means fired".

    Normally it's the combination of 1) and 2) which sees ANY Profit stolen out of the firm, with nothing left to reinvest. Often sacking large numbers of employees becomes the only way to maintain profits for the shareholders, and after a while you end up with a massive sh&tshow, like you see now with DB. Then you end up with a new team trying to rescue the case, whilst explaining to new investors why they wont be seeing those old massive paydays anymore, and whilst the original vultures have long since made off with their profits...

    Of course, the politicians pushing for nationalisation usually had their hands in a nice big pot of cash from the vultures circling, and so would never think to put such restrictions in their path...

    1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

      Re: Privatisation for the win!

      > DB could have been bleeding cash for all I know

      They did, and it was commonly known. However, if you look at the national scale: Trains are infrastructure, and good working infrastructure attracts companies, makes jobs, and taxes come back. It is, on the national scale, a good return of investment. But then they had to make a cheap copy-of-Thatcherism...

      1. lglethal Silver badge
        Go

        Re: Privatisation for the win!

        This is where privatisation can be good. Private companies need to make a Profit (unless your the likes of Über, anything to do with autonomous cars, or AI apparently).

        So they tend to be good at eliminating waste and improving efficiency. The problem comes when all of that newly generated profits is taken as a "reward" by the Shareholders, Board, and C-Suite, and there's nothing left for investment in the firm itself.

        Hence my proposed hand rails...

        Although I tend to agree with you that Infrastructure should remain in the hands of the State, I think that Cat is well and truly out of the Bag...

        1. rg287 Silver badge

          Re: Privatisation for the win!

          So they tend to be good at eliminating waste and improving efficiency.

          This presumes that there is any waste to eliminate.

          Turned out that British Rail was actually pretty lean and mean by the time it was privatised - sectorisation in 1980 had worked wonders. The Inter-City unit was actually turning an operating profit by 1986. Private-sector "business" mindset within a public sector agency. And rails are not like a fibre network. You can't have genuine competition with operators providing different services like you can with an open broadband network. It's a shared media and Network Rail ultimately tells operators what trains they can run. It's a farcical pretence of "competition".

          But anyway, the only lever the new private operators could pull ended up being to cut corners and maintenance (see: RailTrack and their multitude of fatal accidents).

          Moreover, a modicum of waste is good. Running a system slightly below capacity allows you wiggle room during contingency. Network Admins don't wait until a NIC is saturated before upgrading a link - they get worried when average utilisation hits 60%. But the ROSCOs don't hold any spare rolling stock because it would be inefficient to buy stock that you don't have a signed lease for. But this leaves us with cancelled services when a class is withdrawn for safety checks (*cough* CAF *cough*), and we struggle to surge extra services (if there's even line capacity).

          All backups and contingency planning is "wasteful". It's not directly productive work, and we hope never to use it. So why do we do it? Because the alternative would be worse. Alas, in some sectors having reserve capacity is seen as undesirable and must be cut to the bone.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Privatisation for the win!

          Private companies being good at eliminating waste is a myth.

    2. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

      Re: Privatisation for the win!

      Any nationalised firm, especially one that is a model of happy customer service (I was going to say efficiency but DB could have been bleeding cash for all I know) should have laws laid down about the following, that must be obeyed, even after privatisation:

      1) Maximum X% of profit going to shareholders. Any other profit is reinvested in the firm.

      That's what the regulator is supposed to deal with. Unfortunately most regulators for these industries are made up from the same civil servants who ran the industry when it was nationalised, so their main aim in life is to increase their own power & department size, and they tend to assume that money grows on trees well-watered by taxpayers. Any well-run firm will have the balance between profit-after-tax and dividends/interest correct, or their competitors will eat their lunch.

      2) Maximum salary (including all share options, and other bonus bollocks) for C-Suite capped to X times the average employee salary.

      You'll never get the C-suite filled by competent people like that. Pay peanuts, get monkeys. All the decent directors will up sticks and find another position.

      3) Bonuses for the C-Suite are cancelled for any 12 month period in which 1% or more of employees are "let go, made redundant, downsized, or any other HR bollocks which means fired".

      I wouldn't set a straight percentage, sometimes there are good reasons why some staff need to be laid off, yet the business can still be successful. If you electrify a rail line, you don't need people with diesel maintenance experience, for example. Better to tie the bonuses directly to overal business performance, of which staff numbers are just a part. There again, that's what the regulator should enforce. Unfortunately they are usually toothless, incompetent, and/or asleep.

    3. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: Privatisation for the win!

      > 1) Maximum X% of profit going to shareholders. Any other profit is reinvested in the firm.

      I assume it is still the case, but UK defence contractors had a 5% profit cap on contracts; it didn’t seem to stop them doing well and paying well.

      The fact none of the other regulators took the defence procurement model and adapted it would tend to suggest the Conservatives intended the regulators to be negligent…

  9. ChrisElvidge Silver badge

    The problem comes when all of that newly generated profits is taken as a "reward" by the Shareholders, Board, and C-Suite, and there's nothing left for investment in the firm itself.

    Thames Water, anyone?

  10. Mishak Silver badge

    650 km/h (404 mph) in just seven seconds

    That works out to about 2.5 G - some are going to find that a bit uncomfortable (and make sure to hold onto stuff)!

    1. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: 650 km/h (404 mph) in just seven seconds

      "That works out to about 2.5 G - some are going to find that a bit uncomfortable (and make sure to hold onto stuff)!"

      It will be really uncomfortable for the people around the one that loses their grip.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: 650 km/h (404 mph) in just seven seconds

      You also really want to be facing the way you're going. FWIW, I think it sounds fun.

  11. RobThBay

    ICE?

    I saw ICE mentioned and wondered what Trump's Immigration Clowns had to do it.

    1. rg287 Silver badge

      Re: ICE?

      In case anyone is confused: Inter City Express.

      Fast trains that don't stop at most intermediate stations (unlike local or regional services).

      Done properly they have their own purpose-built lines (like the French LGV network). Done badly, you shoehorn your "express" trains through small towns at 30mph because of the level crossings.

      1. captain veg Silver badge

        Re: LGV

        > Done properly they have their own purpose-built lines (like the French LGV network).

        Indeed.

        Last weekend I took a TGV from Paris to Toulouse. The central part of France is something of a LGV desert (for the moment) so the train hares along for a couple of hours to Bordeaux and then trundles across country to Toulouse for rather longer than that first sprint. That particular day we came to a halt on the final stretch due to, allegedly, a scaffold pole dropped across the tracks,

        At least I got a 25% rebate on the ticket price. The delay made no difference to me since I still made the connecting bus service.

        -A.

      2. Pope Popely

        Re: ICE?

        Done badly, you are a federal republic as germany is and each federal state want's its station, and you get the situation that you get a nonstop track between Frankfurt an Cologne on one side of the rhine and state border and a few km away a Frankfurt-Limburg-Montabaur-Bonn-Cologne (But otoh, nice backup), or lines that go almost straight from A to B with just a small hook to just enter the edge of another state.

  12. Tim Almond

    400kph is hilarious compared to internet traffic

    Sit on an expensive, unreliable train full of people listening to techno or get on a Teams meeting that takes seconds to connect.

    Sure, trains are good for Mrs Muggins going to London to see Les Miserables but does she care about speed? Is she paying full fare?

    1. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

      Re: 400kph is hilarious compared to internet traffic

      It's not the speed, it's the bandwidth.

      (As the old saying goes, never underestimate the bandwidth of a truck filled with hard-drives)

    2. teknopaul

      Re: 400kph is hilarious compared to internet traffic

      I understand this is the register but there are other reasons to travel that the reset button.

      I shall be travelling by train to meet my mum coming out of hospital.

  13. frankyunderwood123
    Trollface

    F0rk high speed rail

    … focus on normal speed rail’s coverage, reliability and cost.

    It’s interesting that most of Europe now has sh1t rail infrastructure as they try to pursue high speed rail.

    30 minutes quicker vs reliability and cost?

    I’ll take the latter.

    Japan is a poor comparison, they got to design their rail network in an entirely different way to Europe. There’s no way to compete with it and we shouldn’t compete with it. Different culture, different country.

    1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

      Re: F0rk high speed rail

      > It’s interesting that most of Europe now has sh1t rail infrastructure as they try to pursue high speed rail.

      Name what you use as reference. Cannot be USA. Or India? Or Russia? Come on, name your reference!

    2. teknopaul

      Re: F0rk high speed rail

      Space has both. Fast intercity and slow trams inside the city, and lots in-between.

      At least while we hold of the sabotage by the Trump/Putin alliance

  14. Jason Hindle

    Ahh, the warm ICE

    On a particularly long and hot summer, over a decade ago, I was on a business trip to Germany and needed to take the train from Berlin to Hanover. It was a crazy hot day, and the air conditioning was bombarding me with rather warm air. I asked the guard about this. "Welcome to the warm ICE," she helpfully responded.

    I've done ICE and I've done TGV. I rated neither (but credit to French passengers for impeccable manners - people still go to the space between carriages to take a call there).

  15. El.Mich.

    DB Deutsche Bahn hit the world record for a railway train with 406,9 km/ h already on May 1st, 1988

    As a German it obviously seems to be necessary to "correct" some facts about DB Deutsche Bahn, who already reached the then formerly world record for railway trains with an early IntercityExperimental, the predecessor to the first regular ICE IntercityExpress, already on May 1st, 1988. The train reached 406,9 km/h.

    More about this formerly world record can easily be found here for example:

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICE-Weltrekordfahrt_am_1._Mai_1988

    So high speed as such is definitely not the problem of the DB Deutsche Bahn. We (as Germans) or the DB Deutsche Bahn unfortunately have got a lot of other problems of which punctuality and reliability are more or less on top. Unfortunately German politics decided to "save" money by not investing continuously and regularly as much money which would have been needed to keep everything in good working order ... :-(

    I quite easily could go on and on about DB Deutsche Bahn but once again: High Speed is no real problem. About half of those 400 km/h or even a bit less but constantly, reliably and regularly would be much more appreciated by us customers but German politics do not ask us customers.

  16. captain veg Silver badge

    that's nice

    "The line on which the test train ran, the Erfurt-Leipzig/Halle line, was closed for maintenance and inspected before the test runs. It is scheduled to be closed until July 12, with trains diverted to a parallel line."

    Meanwhile the replacement bus service will average around 10kph and carry approximately one tenth of the passengers.

    -A.

  17. JulieM Silver badge

    Third Rail up the Midland Main Line

    It's bordering on scandalous how the people in charge of the railways in the UK are so opposed to third-rail DC electrification.

    Every time someone talks about electrifying the Midland Main Line, the answer always comes back the same; there are too many low bridges that would have to be rebuilt (and some of them are listed), or have the track bed lowered under them, in order to accommodate overhead AC power lines.

    However ..... The whole length of the Midland Main Line runs through a populated corridor, so power injection is not going to be a problem. The former Southern Electric Railway is all third-rail, so there would be no shortage of stock that could be cascaded onto the MML. And much of that "DC" stock is actually dual-system, so would even survive a later conversion to overhead AC if and when the will is there.

    If third-rail DC is good enough for Southampton, it should be good enough for Sheffield!

  18. aaronhazelwood1010

    That 405 km/h run is seriously impressive for Germany, especially considering how conservative their rail operations have been over the years. While it's not maglev-tier like China’s 650 km/h monster, it’s still a solid step forward for traditional high-speed rail tech.

    What caught my attention most was that the test was done on existing infrastructure without major tweaks — that's a huge win for long-term scalability. Shows that the line quality and maintenance still have room to support faster services if the rolling stock catches up.

    Out of curiosity, I ran the numbers through a speed calculator train tool just to see how long it would take to cover some of the typical ICE routes at 405 km/h — the potential time savings are massive. But then again, reliability and actual scheduling are the real hurdles in daily operations.

    Would be cool to see if this test leads to any upgrades across the wider network or if it was just a PR sprint.

    visit: https://fastesttrains.com/fastest-trains-in-germany/

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