Iran cyberattacks against US biz more likely following air strikes The US Department of Homeland Security has warned American businesses to guard their networks against Iranian government-sponsored cyberattacks along with "low-level" digital intrusions by pro-Iran hacktivists. In a Sunday terrorism advisory, the department warned of a "heightened threat environment in the United States" …
Right now I think we just have hope that the leaders of Europe and the United Kingdom have the good sense and bravery to tell Trump to stick his misbegotten war up his arse.
If we get involved too then it really is the end. At least one region in the world has to show a modicum of adult behaviour, to show some common sense.
There's often a degree of restraint involved, where the attackers still do things they find useful, things where they don't think they'll get caught, or little prods in reaction to something, but they deliberately don't do something against someone who might respond by escalating. That restraint is unlikely to be seen after large bombings, so I would expect that some things may be different. Of course, they could still have some restraint if they think the retaliation might be more bombings. So far, I do think there has been said restraint, I don't think the level of activity in the last few years is the most they can do, but I don't know what they will decide to do now.
So the Pumpkin Fuhrer not only arbitrarily took it on himself to throw the US into a war without Congressional approval, today he decided to "unilaterally" declare a "ceasefire" between Iran and Israel.
When are you Americans going to lock up this lunatic in the insane asylum he belongs in? What kind of COWARDS have you got in your government that one jerk-off with a big mouth can hijack 200+ years of Constitutional and legal processes and traditions?
Because, dear Canadian, the MAGA muppets in charge of the House and Senate, as well as those millions of voters supporting them, think the Dictator-in-Chief is doing the greatest, bestest job in the history of Presidents. They won't impeach him despite NUMEROUS violations of the Constitution, including what ICE is doing illegally. It's always a Republican president now starting all this war bulls---.
It kinda makes me wish that he had beaten Biden so that the military wouldn't be ordered to terrorize its own families. There would be no Project 2025 dismantling our way of life. Trump is a psychotic piece of s---. I'm so damn sick of "defend Israel at all cost" because they do just fine attacking people all by themselves.
Its not like Iran has control of its airspace, it can be hit at any time anywhere and probably only really has cyber or people who crossed borders. Iran now knows they are not dealing with Obama's "red lines" or Bidens "dont" but actual action.
As for the few comments above so far parroting the latest stupidity, what war? The US said no nukes, Iran refused to comply, Trump did not wait for them to build a bomb. Instead blowing away the nuclear capability and thats that. It is nice to see a serious President dealing with the threats.
*Edit: hey look Israel declares a ceasefire and their war is done and dusted
As for the few comments above so far parroting the latest stupidity, what war? The US said no nukes, Iran refused to comply, Trump did not wait for them to build a bomb. Instead blowing away the nuclear capability and thats that. It is nice to see a serious President dealing with the threats.
It's another one of those !wars started by executive action and with a blatant disregard for international laws, or common sense. It's also not necessarily a Trump specific issue given US neocons have been wanting to have a go at Iran for decades. What has happened was pretty much laid out in this paper-
https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/06_iran_strategy.pdf
WHICH PATH TO PERSIA?
Options for a New American Strategy toward Iran
Which talks about fabricating causus beli, using Israel as a proxy and yet another regime change operation. Israel has, of course also been claiming Iran is only days, weeks or months away from having nuclear weapons for decades. There were negotiations underway regarding Iran's civil nuclear program and per the Brookings paper, ended with an offer Iran had to refuse. And then Israel launched an unprovoked attack on Iran, doing their usual thing of bombing apartment buildings, universities, hospitals etc and then being suprised that Iran shot back.
And then the US talked about peace, ceasfires, while moving tanker aircraft, F-22s, B-2s which the media noticed and reported, along with all the experts pointing out that only the US had a chance of destroying hardened sites like Fordow. So Israel's unprovoked attacks on Iran were kinda pointless and couldn't have achieved Israel's stated objectives, without dragging the US into the conflict, and the US dutifully obliged.
Slight snag though. Iran knew this was coming, and where is the estimated 400kg of HEU?
Maybe it's buried somewhere in the Fordow complex, maybe Iran just moved it to another facility. Iran isn't short of mountains to hide things in and we've given Iran plenty of incentive to accelerate production of nuclear weapons. So there'll probably be a regional MAD between Iran and Israel, because when Iran does have nukes, it might then be able to stop Israel and the US's agression. Plus Russia pointed out that states friendly with Iran have offered to help. Maybe Iran smuggles 400kg of HEU to DPRK and they send back nine or ten warheads.
Slow clap
*Edit: hey look Israel declares a ceasefire and their war is done and dusted
Sadly that wasn't how it went. Trump unilaterally declared he'd brokered a ceasefire. Israel carried on bombing Iran. Israel claimed Iran fired missiles back. Bibi does what Bibi does best and carries on blowing sh*t up and the attempted regime change operation continues-
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cn7ze4vmk2pt
Israeli Defence Minister Israel Katz has just issued a statement, saying he has ordered the Israel Defense Forces to "respond forcefully to Iran's violation of the ceasefire with intense strikes against regime targets in the heart of Tehran".
Katz isn't exactly a peace maker. But then there's the blowback. The US launched an unprovoked attack on Iran, and Iran is entitled to defend itself and retaliate against that agression. Whether it does this by cyber or unconventional warfare, we'll have to wait and see. But it'll be keeping our police & security services even busier than they aready were.
@Jellied Eel
"It's another one of those !wars started by executive action and with a blatant disregard for international laws, or common sense."
State sponsors of terrorists who kill and maim regularly including the atrocity against Israel by Hamas, who shout death to Israel and death to America and death to infidels, it is these nutters who were getting very close to making a nuclear bomb and its not common sense to stop that? And waiting for them to make the bomb or blow Israel up would be too late and very bloody.
"So Israel's unprovoked attacks on Iran were kinda pointless and couldn't have achieved Israel's stated objectives, without dragging the US into the conflict, and the US dutifully obliged."
It could but it would be bloody and an invasion. Israel could move operatives on the ground to attack the facility but that would be very messy. The US has the means to deal with the problem and so did. A problem the US has been wanting to deal with but lacking the will to deal with.
"The US launched an unprovoked attack on Iran, and Iran is entitled to defend itself and retaliate against that agression. Whether it does this by cyber or unconventional warfare, we'll have to wait and see. But it'll be keeping our police & security services even busier than they aready were."
Unprovoked is a dream. It was made perfectly clear that it is not acceptable for the terrorist sponsors, death to all, nutters to have nukes. Iran disagreed and the US made clear that is not acceptable.
State sponsors of terrorists who kill and maim regularly including the atrocity against Israel by Hamas, who shout death to Israel and death to America and death to infidels, it is these nutters who were getting very close to making a nuclear bomb and its not common sense to stop that? And waiting for them to make the bomb or blow Israel up would be too late and very bloody.
Iran must not have the bomb because Iran is evil. Because we say so. And because we've been trying to create regime change in Iran for decades, assassinating their civilians and sometimes military commanders because they're evil. Meanwhile, we've been supporting and arming nutters who've been committing genocide in Gaza and preparing that land for future luxury property development. Oh, and the offshore mineral rights. Oh, and also bombing Lebanon, supporting illegal settlement, supporting regime change in Syria that's lead to events like this-
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c307n9p43z9o
A man opened fire with a weapon at the Greek Orthodox Church of the Prophet Elias in the Dweila neighbourhood during a service on Sunday evening before detonating an explosive vest, according to the interior ministry.
It said the attacker was affiliated with the jihadist group Islamic State (IS). There was no immediate claim from the group itself.
Which is all good because Assad is gone and his replacement is totally reformed now and was never affiliated with ISIL. He wears a suit now, so must be a decent chap and is in full control of Syria. Well, except the bits Israel, the US, Turkey and assorted warlords have annexed.
Plus the irony of all the cries that Iran must not have the bomb, when Israel does but of course denies it and ignores nuclear treaties. Perhaps Israel should be held to the same standards as we hold Iran to? But it's demonstrated that the IAEA and UN are pretty much a waste of space. Iran mostly complied with IAEA inspectors and treaties, but this wasn't good enough so Israel and the US bombed nuclear facilities in breach of international laws and treaties.. And you'll notice Iran didn't return the favor and attack Israel's nuclear facilities in exchange. And the pretext ignores some other fine details, like a fatwa from 2003 forbidding nuclear weapons development.
Iran is evil though, and was only weeks away from having the bomb, just as Bibi has been ranting about for the last couple of decades. And if they did have the bomb, they'd promptly nuke Israel. Mainly because they're evil, and not because Israel's providing plenty of justification. Iran just hates the Jews.. Well, except for this-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Jews#Current_status
and hopefully Bibi the bomber has been careful to avoid killing Iranian Jews. Or maybe not, but his actions will have endangered Iran's Jewish population. And again, there's the small matter of 400kg or so of HEU that's currently unaccounted for, and increased incentives to actually turn that into weapons now.
It could but it would be bloody and an invasion. Israel could move operatives on the ground to attack the facility but that would be very messy. The US has the means to deal with the problem and so did.
Boots on the ground wouldn't really change the legality. Iran's been attacked, Israel and the US are the agressors and Iran is entitled to respond. Trying a commando raid wouldn't be messy, it would be suicidal given the distance, terrain and trying to assault heavily fortified tunnel complexes with only whatever you could walk in or transport by helicopter. It would likely also be a one-way mission because there'd be virtually no chance to exfiltrate.. Especially if you're also trying to haul away 400kg of HEU. And then there's the assumption that the GBUs dropped actually achieved their objective and Iran's complexes really were 'obliterated', and that the kit that was in there hadn't been moved.. Which may also have been the point, ie use the attacks as a way to encourage Iran to relocate stuff, track those movements and then maybe destroy it in a softer location.
@Jellied Eel
"Iran must not have the bomb because Iran is evil. Because we say so."
Yes.
"And because we've been trying to create regime change in Iran for decades, assassinating their civilians and sometimes military commanders because they're evil."
Is that reasons for them to hold a grudge while they shout death to Israel, death to America and death to the infidel? Sounds like a very good reason not to let them make nukes.
"Perhaps Israel should be held to the same standards as we hold Iran to?"
Israel who is constantly opposed and sanctioned by the west while surrounded by terrorists?
"And if they did have the bomb, they'd promptly nuke Israel. Mainly because they're evil, and not because Israel's providing plenty of justification."
Sounds like a good reason not to let them make nukes.
"Or maybe not, but his actions will have endangered Iran's Jewish population"
Didnt Israel recently get attacked in a horrific assault by Hamas supported by Iran which not only caused serious atrocities but resulted in hostages. Not all returned by the way... still. And not just Israelis but
people from around the world at a festival. And Biden wouldnt let Israel get the hostages!!! As a result Israel eventually had to ignore Bidens insanity and just do the job to rescue people.
"Boots on the ground wouldn't really change the legality."
The agreement is Iran does not make nuclear material for nuclear bombs. They did. They fucked around, they found out. I dont see the same crying when Obama dropped bombs in other countries.
"Especially if you're also trying to haul away 400kg of HEU"
I would assume the idea would not be to remove it but to destroy/bury as the bombs were for. And it would have taken a solid military invading operation to do it, so makes more sense to bomb it. Nuclear material gone, scientists gone, military personnel gone. Job done and it sounds like it was done well.
Is that reasons for them to hold a grudge while they shout death to Israel, death to America and death to the infidel? Sounds like a very good reason not to let them make nukes.
ISIL & Al Qaeda fanatics chant the same thing, and now we've given them a country. Syria's christians and shia muslims may not be too happy about the situation, but our 'leaders' were very excited that Salafi jihadis now have their own state.. Including Syria's weapons, manufacturing capacity etc. That complements all the stuff looted in Libya, abandoned in Afghanistan etc etc. Every bomb dropped just helps the jihadis recruitment drives.
Israel who is constantly opposed and sanctioned by the west while surrounded by terrorists?
Israel has a.. rather unique form of diplomacy, and making friends-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Katz
He supported the Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip. On 13 October 2023, Katz, then Minister of Energy and Infrastructure, stated on X: "We will fight the terrorist organization Hamas and destroy it. All the civilian population in [G]aza is ordered to leave immediately. We will win. They will not receive a drop of water or a single battery until they leave the world
Just a tad genocidal, so Bibi promoted Katz first to Minister of Foreign Affairs, then Defence. Israel is not constantly opposed, or at least not in any way that matters. There might be polite diplomatic statements about how it would be terribly nice if Israel stopped committing war crimes.. But it's far from being sanctioned, quite the opposite. But then it is a very large customer for bombs and other weapons. Plus Katz had a rather robust suggestion for dealing with sanctions attempts-
The same month, Katz argued that Israel should employ "targeted civil eliminations" against leaders of Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS). The expression puns on the Hebrew word for targeted assassinations.
Didnt Israel recently get attacked in a horrific assault by Hamas supported by Iran which not only caused serious atrocities but resulted in hostages. Not all returned by the way... still.
Yup, and according to Bibi, they Oct 7th was a complete suprise! Despite all the warnings. But Israel took around 1,100 casualties. 18 months later, Gaza an estimated 70,000 mostly civilians dead, pretty much the entire population displaced and being starved. And Bibi's using a novel form of hostage rescue by dropping 2,000lb bombs on residential buildings. It's almost as though the objective is clearing Gaza for redevelopment rather than freeing hostages. But it's keeping Bibi out of jail and he's just helping Israel's fanatics play their Numbers games.
The agreement is Iran does not make nuclear material for nuclear bombs. They did. They fucked around, they found out. I dont see the same crying when Obama dropped bombs in other countries.
No, they enriched uranium to a level where it still had civil uses. The IAEA said they'd found no evidence of a bomb making program. Bibi drew pictures of a cartoon bomb. But Israel and the US have certainly done the FAFO part-
Earlier, Israel's President Isaac Herzog gave a press conference in English at the site of an Iranian attack overnight in the southern city of Beersheba.
He started by saying Israel had successfully "removed the Iranian nuclear threat on Israel, the region and the free world."
Which is a rather forward-looking statement and a large dose of optimism bias. There may never have been a nuclear threat to Israel, but with the 400kg of HEU now missing and unaccounted for, there may be now.. Especially if the goal is still regime change, Ali Khamenei is assassinated or removed, and replaced with.. Oh, wait, as this was all kicking off, Iran's own Navalny started getting a lot more media promotion. So Reza Pahlavi steps in. Except a lot of Iranians subscribe to the 'No Kings' movement.
I would assume the idea would not be to remove it but to destroy/bury as the bombs were for. And it would have taken a solid military invading operation to do it, so makes more sense to bomb it. Nuclear material gone, scientists gone, military personnel gone. Job done and it sounds like it was done well.
It didn't really make much sense because the nuclear material may have been long gone. If it's buried, it can be dug up. It can't really be destroyed, maybe only dispersed. And there's satellite images now of a few holes in the mountain at Fordow, and debris fields where the tunnels may have been blown out... But the IAEA says they've detected no radiation. Kind of a reverse Iraq and their WMD. We claimed they had them, but couldn't find them. We know Iran had HEU, but we have no idea where that is now either..
@Jellied Eel
"ISIL & Al Qaeda fanatics chant the same thing, and now we've given them a country."
You will find I dont disagree. I remember Russia trolling Obama over terrorist vs freedom fighter over Syria. Obama's Arab spring, red lines and then handing Syria to Russia to deal with was a failure for the US. And before Obama Bush was an idiot who of course got the US stuck in the tar pit of the middle east. But neither ISIL nor Al Qaeda have nuke production either. Trump ending the forever wars was a good thing.
"Israel is not constantly opposed, or at least not in any way that matters"
Hamas still has hostages that they took of people from around the world. If Israel was so genocidal this would have been resolved by now and Hamas wouldnt exist. If there was no pressure blocking Israel from action they would likely have got the hostages back already. Watching the moron stunt by Greta I think it would have been a better option to let her land, and Hamas would have a field day with a stuck up idiot kid in many vile ways. The problem is idiots would then blame Israel for letting her through.
"18 months later, Gaza an estimated 70,000 mostly civilians dead"
What kind of civilian? The civilian who had a gun before they died but its removed once they are dead? Or the civilian such as a reporter for a well known news agency who was housing hostages? Or the civilians who dont rat out the location of the terrorists probably through fear? Or do you mean the human shields? Maybe the kids with bombs strapped to them and sent to the IDF soldiers crying? Or the civilians who cant get the aid that is being delivered because Hamas is collecting it for their own?
"No, they enriched uranium to a level where it still had civil uses. The IAEA said they'd found no evidence of a bomb making program."
They were allowed to enrich to 4% and enriched to bomb grade 60%. CNN who look for any excuse to attack Trump doesnt dodge that-
In 2023, the IAEA said uranium particles enriched to 83.7% purity – close to bomb-grade levels – were found at an Iranian nuclear facility. Its stockpile of uranium enriched up to 60% had also grown to 128.3 kilograms, the highest level then documented.
https://edition.cnn.com/2025/06/13/middleeast/iran-nuclear-program-explainer-intl-dg
That doesnt seem to match what you claim.
"but with the 400kg of HEU now missing and unaccounted for"
I thought you said they didnt want to make a bomb? And they are now hiding it when it would be amazing evidence of not trying to make a bomb?
"Except a lot of Iranians subscribe to the 'No Kings' movement."
What a shock. A lot of other flags were flown for the violent but peaceful whateverwecallit.
"We know Iran had HEU, but we have no idea where that is now either.."
Good job Irans nuclear gear and material got blown up and buried. And strange to not worry about this bomb making material being made but to now to be concerned that it is real and moved to which Iran might want to make a bomb. Seems to suggest it was the right thing to do something about this big bomb of a problem. And its a good thing not to be detecting radiation everywhere. Remember the idea was to put an end to Irans nuke programme, not to nuke the civvies.
Or do you mean the human shields?
Humans don't make very good shields against 2,000lb bombs being dropped on apartment buildings. But you also seem to be using Israeli logic. If (when) kids are killed, they must be Hamas.
Hamas still has hostages that they took of people from around the world.
Yep. And levelling Gaza a block at a time is obviously the best and safest way of freeing those hostages. Again it's the unique form of Bibi diplomacy, release hostages or we'll keep mowing the lawn. Releasing hostages and Hamas has no leverage and nothing to prevent Israel continuing clearing Gaza for redevelopment & expansion.
In 2023, the IAEA said uranium particles enriched to 83.7% purity – close to bomb-grade levels – were found at an Iranian nuclear facility. Its stockpile of uranium enriched up to 60% had also grown to 128.3 kilograms, the highest level then documented.
Ohnoes! Those evil Iranian physicists were only days/weeks/months/decades away from developing a nanonuke. It takes quite a few particles to create a bomb, and quite a lot of work to enrich from 60% to 90%.. which the IAEA presented no evidence that Iran was doing.. then. Now? Who knows? It probably won't be the IAEA because Iran can either tell them to Foxtrot Oscar or point at some craters and go 'nope, all gone now!'.
I thought you said they didnt want to make a bomb? And they are now hiding it when it would be amazing evidence of not trying to make a bomb?
But they were allowed to enrich to 60% to support naval reactor development. That loophole mentioned in another topic. Enriching beyond that would have been a bit naughty, but the IAEA said there was no evidence of any nuclear weapons programme. Now, we've given Iran every incentive to develop weapons as a deterrent and there's 400kg of Schrodingers HEU.. somewhere. Maybe Iran will allow IAEA inspectors into Fordow, give them teaspoons and let them start digging because it's down there somewhere, trust me. Or there's an awful lot of mountainous terrain in Iran where it might be, soon to undergo further enrichment.
Good job Irans nuclear gear and material got blown up and buried.
All of it? Maybe the HEU will be on a ship heading to DPRK, Pakistan, China or some other country that'll enrich it futher, or swap it for ready made nukes and Iran can pay for that with cash or oil.
And strange to not worry about this bomb making material being made but to now to be concerned that it is real and moved to which Iran might want to make a bomb.
You must have missed all the news and attempted justification. Israel and the US had to act now because Iran was only days/weeks/months/decades away from setting up the bomb. Allowing the negotiations to continue would have been too late, so the missiles just had to fly now. Iranian prisons had to be bombed. It was the only way to be unsure. Nobody other than Iran really knows how successful these operations were, or if Iran will now accelerate a weapons program to create a regional MAD detente.
Only a couple of weeks ago, there was almost a deal where Iran would give the HEU to Russia in exchange for reactors and fuel, now, that's well and truly off the table. It could have been accounted for, now it can't.
@Jellied Eel
"Humans don't make very good shields against 2,000lb bombs being dropped on apartment buildings. But you also seem to be using Israeli logic. If (when) kids are killed, they must be Hamas."
Unfortunately you can only really care as much about your enemies civilians as your enemy cares for their own civilians. Obviously not a solid rule but when they place their own civilians on top of terrorist launch sites or strap bombs to their civilians kids and point them towards you there are limits to how restrained you can be while being shot at/blown up. You dont want collateral damage but when that morality is used as a shield to protect atrocities (say launching rockets from hospitals or again strapping bombs on your own peoples kids) there comes a limit to which you must act.
"Yep. And levelling Gaza a block at a time is obviously the best and safest way of freeing those hostages"
We will disagree on this because I think the answer is yes. Not for any genocidal desire, only that if they want the hostages back they are gonna have to go in and get them. That seems to have been well demonstrated so far but also how these things normally operate. The longer the hostages are in enemy hands in enemy territory the more lost they become (either death or actually lost). Even Hamas had some trouble finding some of the hostages they took.
"It takes quite a few particles to create a bomb, and quite a lot of work to enrich from 60% to 90%.. which the IAEA presented no evidence that Iran was doing"
And yet they agreed to only 4% for civilian use. Waiting for them to make a bomb or even detonating one before acting would be a bit late. If your claim is true that material had been moved then tracking a bomb would be more difficult. Although easier to see where it went off.
"All of it? Maybe the HEU will be on a ship heading to DPRK, Pakistan, China or some other country that'll enrich it futher, or swap it for ready made nukes and Iran can pay for that with cash or oil."
Possibly, but then I would suggest that highlighted the previous failures to deal with the threat and urgency to remove such facilities from Iran for this very reason.
"Allowing the negotiations to continue would have been too late, so the missiles just had to fly now"
As I understand it the negotiations were going nowhere with Iran using it to stall while of course this threat existing. As far as I am concerned I can see the need for bombing the production facilities and maybe some of the military command chain involved. I dont try to justify any civilian targets.
"Only a couple of weeks ago, there was almost a deal where Iran would give the HEU to Russia in exchange for reactors and fuel, now, that's well and truly off the table. It could have been accounted for, now it can't."
I do wonder what the conversation between Trump and Russia would have been about this because Trump almost certainly discussed the Iran issue with Putin.
*Note:
I spotted an amusing comment from 45RPM about me and you supposedly 'going at it'. Its a sorry state when people who dont agree on something are somehow seen as 'going at it'. As always the discussion is appreciated.
Unfortunately you can only really care as much about your enemies civilians as your enemy cares for their own civilians.
Or you care as much about your enemies civilians as you do your own. Israel shows utter disregard for Palestinian, Lebanese, Syrian and now Iranian civilians lives, so why should Israeli's enemies care about Israeli civilians? So the cycle of attrocities continue. Israel copies tactics used in places like the Warsaw ghettos, then is suprised when Gaza does a version of this-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising
Especially when Israel had advance warnings, or their own intelligence should have warned them given Hamas was thoroughly infiltrated. Especially given Hamas was largely an Israeli creation as a counter to the PLO.. Which rather backfired and gave the Arab states a willing proxy. But that's something that's generally glossed over with misinformation, ie Hamas = Iran, when the reality is Hamas = Arab. Iran's been a supporter of Hezbollah, not Hamas. Which is also where geopolitics have become more complex after ISIL/ISIS victory in Syria.
We will disagree on this because I think the answer is yes. Not for any genocidal desire, only that if they want the hostages back they are gonna have to go in and get them. That seems to have been well demonstrated so far but also how these things normally operate.
Israel's defence minister and the other neocons in Bibi's cabinet have clearly demonstrated genocidal intent. Every time Bibi gets power, he provokes an excuse to mow the lawn. Israel's far-right have longed for a final solution to the Gaza problem because there are billions of shekels in real estate and oil revenues at stake. The hostages will probably get a few shekels spent on a martyr's garden in between luxury beach front housing developments where Gaza once stood. Now that Israel's paused bombing Iran, it says it's pivoting back to elimating 'Hamas'.. Not rescuing hostages.
And yet they agreed to only 4% for civilian use. Waiting for them to make a bomb or even detonating one before acting would be a bit late. If your claim is true that material had been moved then tracking a bomb would be more difficult. Although easier to see where it went off.
Nope-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_program_of_Iran#United_States_withdrawal_and_Iranian_violations_(2018%E2%80%932025)
Dear'ol Donald cancelled the JCPOA deal, reintroduced sanctions and assassinated an IRGC commander, Soleimani in Iraq. Then some sabotage and more assassinations, and then in a 'how to win friends and influence people', this-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_2024_Israeli_strikes_on_Iran
which were the previous attacks by Israel on Iran. But it's been a gradual series of escalations and provocations leading up to the most recent strikes.
As I understand it the negotiations were going nowhere with Iran using it to stall while of course this threat existing.
Or the negotiations were just a pretext and were never meant to go anywhere. Impose unrealstic demands on Iran, use refusal as a pretext to blow stuff up, murder scientists families and hope for a regime change.. Which really doesn't appear to have worked. Now Iranians have even more reasons to hate Israel and the US. It's much the same ploy as is being used in Ukraine. Demand unconditional ceasefires and withdrawl to 2014 borders, knowing that Russia would never agree to those terms. Trump might have once had a reputation as a businessman and deal maker, but he should have known that deals need to be realistic. Now, he's succeeded in making the US look weak and untrustworthy.
I do wonder what the conversation between Trump and Russia would have been about this because Trump almost certainly discussed the Iran issue with Putin.
Probably pretty blunt and direct, although maybe not as direct as Medvedev's comments about this fiasco just increasing the probability that Iran will now buy or build nuclear weapons.
I spotted an amusing comment from 45RPM about me and you supposedly 'going at it'. Its a sorry state when people who dont agree on something are somehow seen as 'going at it'. As always the discussion is appreciated.
Well, 45rpm is a record that spins. I also see you seem to have attracted the attention of the forum's resident skiddy and their auto-downvote script.
"As for the few comments above so far parroting the latest stupidity, what war?"
Dropping bombs on another country, particularly on sensitive sites such as those dealing with nuclear stuff, can be considered an act of war. Americans may have a lot of alternative words for explaining how a war isn't really a war, but military hostilities in another country is a basic definition.
"The US said no nukes, Iran refused to comply"
Show me a nuke. Just one. Yes I know the site could make weapons grade glowy-darky stuff, but there are no actual weapons anybody can point to except the ones in their stupid fucking heads (stupid fucking because we've been through this shitshow before with a previous Republican arsehole, or are you too young to remember all the WMD hooha?).
"It is nice to see a serious President dealing with the threats."
The delusion is so strong. If the dipshit President wishes to drag his country into another idiotic conflict that will ultimately be a failure just like all the rest, count us out.
@heyrick
"Dropping bombs on another country, particularly on sensitive sites such as those dealing with nuclear stuff, can be considered an act of war"
It could but Trump made very clear the purpose without any pretending. It was not acceptable for Iran to have nukes and after dithering for so long finally a President dealt with the problem. It is up to Iran if they want it to be a war but they will not have nukes.
"Americans may have a lot of alternative words for explaining how a war isn't really a war, but military hostilities in another country is a basic definition."
Excellent, so Iran state sponsored attacks on shipping including US shipping, planned and executed attacks against Americans in various countries and was shouting death to Israel and death to America while making nukes. And with great restraint the US took out the nuke facilities.
"Show me a nuke. Just one"
You want them to build one? You want the picture of the bomb or would you be satisfied with pictures of the blast and aftermath? That would be called stupid. Even easier, why would Iran enrich nuclear material to bomb levels? They agreed not to and yet they enriched to 60%, the only need for that much is for a bomb. Is that not enough for you? They shout death to America and Israel and plot, execute and fund attacks on them constantly. Is that enough for you yet?
Only an idiot waits for the crater in hopes they will send you a picture of the bomb they made.
"The delusion is so strong. If the dipshit President wishes to drag his country into another idiotic conflict that will ultimately be a failure just like all the rest, count us out."
Sure. You would wait until we are at war? The President isnt dragging his country into conflict. He is stopping it before conflict really breaks out. Or do you think the cute and cuddly Iran who calls for death and destruction to make a bomb but not use it?
Whatever the purpose, bombing someone counts as a war. Israel and Iran have been in a war with one another for a while, and the US and Iran are in one now. You can argue that these weren't the first attacks of the war and that it's existed for some time, or you can argue that it just started last week, but either way, what they're doing now is called war. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have a side here. You can support one of the belligerents in a war, or you can support neither of them, and your opinion can change as events do, but it won't stop it from being one. Directly dropping bombs on military members from the other side is one of the most obvious ways to determine whether it is one, and both countries have been doing that.
@doublelayer
"Directly dropping bombs on military members from the other side is one of the most obvious ways to determine whether it is one, and both countries have been doing that."
My understanding being the US hit the nuclear sites. I thought it was the Israelis taking out the military assets?
"Whatever the purpose, bombing someone counts as a war."
A war requires 2 participants. If Iran wants to make it a war then sure. Trump could be argued as the aggressor for bombing the nuke sites, Iran could be seen so for its nuclear programme. I prefer the more direct approach taken here over the viruses to damage centrifuges or delaying 'deals'. If they deem Iran too dangerous to have nuclear bombs then stopping them outright seems the most sensible. I am not sure previous presidents would have had the international level of respect to pull this off though where Trump obviously does. As with his first term and N.Korea.
"My understanding being the US hit the nuclear sites."
Places where they make nuclear weapons are military things. That's especially true when they're run by the military as well, so there are military members there, but even if it only employs civilians, that's a target. But if you don't think that is correct organization, basically any time one country deliberately bombs another one, it's a war. The place in Qatar that Iran bombed had US soldiers in it. They are at war and have been at least since that first bomb fell. Of course, since this isn't a neatly organized declared war, they can stop being in a war unofficially by just no longer dropping any bombs on each other; you don't need a formal peace treaty to end a war if both sides decide they're through. Maybe that will happen. It won't have stopped this thing having been a war.
And even though it's definitely a war, you can still support it. Nothing says that you can't support a war. Nothing says you can't support the aggressor in a war, although since it's usually the less popular choice, there are numerous ways to describe things such that the other side is the aggressor and you could do that with the US-Iran war, and actually quite a bit more easily than with some others. You can have and defend the point of view that war was a reasonable and appropriate reaction to previous events if you feel that way. Just know that you will have to have that argument if you support this, because war is what they did.
@doublelayer
"Places where they make nuclear weapons are military things."
I think I misunderstood you, I thought you meant the US was hitting military targets outside just the nuclear facilities. I hadnt heard that so thought I might have missed something in the reporting.
"The place in Qatar that Iran bombed had US soldiers in it."
Do you mean the weak response they gave the US heads up, missiles intercepted and was just for show? If so I think it is fair to brush it off, as has been done, as face saving.
As for technicality of calling it a war or not, I dont really mind what people call it. Iran was deemed too dangerous to have nukes and so Trump did something about it. A problem that was left to continue from previous administrations.
"You can have and defend the point of view that war was a reasonable and appropriate reaction to previous events if you feel that way."
Thats fine but in the same way I dont call Obama bombing and conducting a raid in Pakistan a war I dont call this a war. People can consider it a war if they like we can still agree what the operation was even if we label it differently. This direct bombing to remove the nuclear capability was more overt, but previous efforts to destroy these things (the computer virus comes to mind) is surely similar aggression and could also be called an act of war?
...you don't need a formal peace treaty to end a war if both sides decide they're through. Maybe that will happen. It won't have stopped this thing having been a war.
It was yet another !war given no formal declaration. Or possibly even legal authorisation, ie the US Constitution gives war making powers to Congress, but is frequently bypassed for convenience. But there's been two !wars. So Israel vs Iran where Israel bombed Iran's embassy in Syria and attacked Iranian forces who were assisting Assad in Syria's civil war against ISIL/ISIS, Al Qaeda, HTS and the assorted nutjobs and head choppers that Israel's helped put into power after the Syrian regime change operation. Geopolitics is weird like that, and the enemy of our enemy has a bad habit of not being our friend.
Then there is/was Iran's support for Hezbollah in Lebanon, where Israel had been busy doing the Bibi thing and blowing up apartment buildings and helping Hezbollah recruit. So Israel hasn't been making any friends in their north and east. And then there's Egypt, which has it's own internal instabilities, and isn't exactly a friend of Israel. Oh, and of course Iraq, which is still dealing with the consequences of their own regime change operation. Oh, and Jordan, which is mostly trying to keep out of this sh*tshow. But all part of the reasons why this region is a bit of a tinderbox where the US and Israel happily flick matches around.
So a peace treaty could be a good thing, ie Israel, Iran and the US/West ideally should agree to stop killing each other and stop playing the regime change game in Iran. So possibly a return to this-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Comprehensive_Plan_of_Action
The agreement was finalized in Vienna on 14 July 2015, between Iran and the P5+1 (the five permanent members of the United Nations Security Council (UNSC)—China, France, Russia, the U.K., U.S.—plus Germany)[a] together with the European Union.
Which the US, and then their proxies withdrew from. Which was a strange kind of treaty given P5+1+27 kinda double counts France, Germany and the EU. Which is just one of those strange EU things when the EU has exclusive (in)competency regarding it, and it's members foreign policy. Which is a bit of a UN issue, ie should France still be a member of the UNSC, or be replaced by the EU? Which then makes voting on stuff more interesting given it'll be 1 vote vs 27. Not that UN Resolutions count for much, but with Annalena Baerbock heading for NY and President of the UN, there will be ample opportunities for her to fsck things up again.
But a reintroduction & revision of the JCPOA could be a good start. Iran promises to play nicely with others and gets sanctions lifted. It can carry on with its civil nuclear program and help with Net Zero by building NPPs, with Russia supplying those and their fuel. Iran and Israel sign a side-treaty agreeing to play nicely, and the world could be a better place.
Or it won't be. Iran has no reason to trust supposedly neutral organisations like the IAEA and no reason to trust the West, which seems still to be busy pushing regime change in Iran. If we're successful, that might just create a new regime that's even more hostile to our interests. We might be hoping for a return of the king, but that probably won't happen and might just trigger another civil war. Or we've given Iran reasons to accelerate their weapons program and pushed Iran even closer to Russia & China's orbit.
Wow, watching junky and jelly go at it is like watching a convention of fuckwits.
The truth is that developing a nuclear weapon is expensive, ruinously so for a smaller nation. And those nations, no matter how despotic, have to maintain a balance between military programs and keeping their citizens happy. Screw up and there’s revolution. But…
If some absolute brain dead imbecile starts dropping bombs without provocation then you give the despot the magic key. Suddenly they can both develop WMD and keep their citizens (enough of them, anyway) happy - because now it’s a matter of national self interest. It’s a matter of self defence.
Peace does not come down the barrel of a gun. Even the classic example of world war 2 didn’t need to get to world war 2 - even the allied powers had had the intelligence to help Germany after World War One, long before the rise of Naziism, and maybe set up, I don’t know, a union of European nations. It doesn’t take a genius - all it takes is a little common sense, a willingness to learn from the lessons of history, and a preparedness to help others and chuck the jingoistic bollocks in the bin.
The truth is that developing a nuclear weapon is expensive, ruinously so for a smaller nation. And those nations, no matter how despotic, have to maintain a balance between military programs and keeping their citizens happy. Screw up and there’s revolution. But…
Here's Bibi showing the UN a detailed design of Iran's nuclear weapon-
https://www.reuters.com/article/world/netanyahus-iran-cartoon-bomb-timed-to-make-big-impact-idUSBRE88R12L/
NEW YORK (Reuters) - The "Bibi bomb" was born of days of discussions between Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and a brains trust of close advisers on how to make a powerful impact in yet another speech on Iran's nuclear program.
Back in 2012, showing that Iran was 90% of the way there, because Israeli intelligence is just that good. But the truth is that developing a nuclear weapon is not ruinously expensive. After all, Israel managed it when it was a small and mostly agricultural nation. But then Israel had some help. And given the first nuclear weapons were used in 1945, and since then states have worked on making bombs, large and small including things like the W54 in the 1960s. That bomb was small enough at around 25kg and could fit into carry-on luggage, be fired from artillery or a large bazoooka. Ok, so those nukes used plutonium and uranium because plutonium gives the best bang for the buck. Israel produced plutonium for their nuclear weapons, but there's been no evidence that Iran has.
So Israel is a great case study of how a small, and relatively poor, non-oil rich nation could and did produce nuclear weapons.. It just needed a bit of help from a nation that takes a flexibile approach to nuclear non-proliferation. What would be more ruinously expensive would be Iran using HEU to develop a nuclear submarine. We might not want them to do that, or let them spend the money because if TSHTF, they'd be unlikely to ever make it out of the Gulf.
If some absolute brain dead imbecile starts dropping bombs without provocation then you give the despot the magic key. Suddenly they can both develop WMD and keep their citizens (enough of them, anyway) happy - because now it’s a matter of national self interest. It’s a matter of self defence.
Which is my point. Two lots of absolute brain dead imbeciles have just dropped bombs without provocation. The objective may not have been achieved because the 400kg of HEU can't be accounted for, and there's now a huge incentive to turn that into WMD for self-defence. Plus there's been a large show of hands. Israel probably won't be able to repeat the tactics they used in their sneak attack. Iran has tested Israel's air defences, found weaknesses and almost exhausted Israel's stocks of interceptors. Those are in short supply and high demand at the moment.
And then more unknowns. So the US spent millions developing the GBU bunker busters, pretty much specifically to deal with Iran's bunkers. Iran now has 14 sets of test results to see how effective those were. We've just got some satellite images to provide best-guesses whether those really obliterated the bunkers, or not. If they didn't, Iran knows it can safely carry on until we've built bigger and better bombs, and/or bombers, or Iran just digs deeper and uses more concrete & gravel.
Peace does not come down the barrel of a gun.
Sadly, our 'leaders' don't seem to have realised this. That kind of peace making and diplomacy just leads to inevitable escalation, as history has demonstrated time and time again.
@45RPM
"Wow, watching junky and jelly go at it is like watching a convention of fuckwits."
And yet there might be hope that you learn something. While we can have differing opinions and give different weights to the incoming information as it is developing, we are also capable of discussing it! Its an old concept that seems to have been phased out in some fanatical groups but I expect 'jelly' is the kind of guy I could sit down and have a pleasant drink with while we discuss something we disagree on and be happy to come back for another friendly chat.
You might also note we are not trolling each other, no animosity, just discussing current events. I think I know why you struggle if you see different opinions as 'going at it' and conversation as fuckwits.
For your post-
"Peace does not come down the barrel of a gun"
Except as demonstrated throughout time. Military might and the threat of violence keeping people peaceful. The police FORCE. The military. Even discipline at home. The natural human desires curtailed by social pressures. Remove that and we see the consequences. It takes more than just 'the barrel of a gun' but it is needed for peace.
"Even the classic example of world war 2 didn’t need to get to world war 2 - even the allied powers had had the intelligence to help Germany after World War One"
It was the squeezing of Germany by the allies after WW1 that broke Germany so badly for people to rally behind the national socialist party leading to WW2.
"I don’t know, a union of European nations"
I am amused how you mention WW2 then move on to a unified Europe that is currently led by the Germans. There is some irony in there I am sure.
"Except as demonstrated throughout time."
That's not peace, that's oppression. If somebody, China say, rocked into the US and said "we're now in charge and if you disagree we'll kill you" and did exactly that, there will be pushback, but as long as they kept coming and people kept dying, there would come a point where everybody is like "nah, we're good, how do you say overlord in Chinese?". Would you call that peace? Would you call all the corpses it took to get there peace? The best you can hope for is that for a while everybody agrees not to kill everybody else. The illusion of peace.
@heyrick
"That's not peace, that's oppression"
Then we remove the police force and end up at mob rule. People cry about wanting more tax being taken and yet tax is taken by the use of force. People dont break into your home because of the threat of force. Countries invade weaker ones but again we know threat of force is a serious deterrent.
"Would you call all the corpses it took to get there peace? The best you can hope for is that for a while everybody agrees not to kill everybody else. The illusion of peace."
Guess what you live under every day. And for corpses, we celebrate them every year. Around the world countries celebrate those corpses because without them would be the oppression you talked about at the beginning while misunderstanding the peace you live under. Reduction of the threat of force has brought about some horrible problems we see in the UK. Seriously misbehaving kids (example from when I was younger is a neighbour kid being stabbed by another) because the parents wont do anything and police couldnt.
But peace is everybody agreeing not to kill everybody else.
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