Ukrainians smuggle drones hidden in cabins on trucks to strike Russian airfields Ukraine claims it launched a cunning drone strike on Sunday against multiple Russian airbases, hitting over 40 military aircraft and inflicting an estimated $7 billion in damage, in an operation dubbed "Spiderweb." According to a post on X from Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the operation, which took 18 months of …
This could be the centerpiece of Britain's great rearmament project
Picture brigades of self-propelled sheds sweeping across the allotments of Eastern Europe.
The flight decks of HMS Her Maj and HMS Chuck, otherwise empty of expensive F35s, festooned with sheds.
A special force of elite Shedi-Knights battling the enemy
Interesting. What do you imagine this "late stage capitalism" to actually be? Only the term itself is nearly 100 years old, so the question is how many more centuries will this "late stage" last? All of them? Most of them?
Its the sort of term bandied about a lot by people that never seem to understand why capitalism works and socialism never does.
We have feudalistic oligarchic relationships (rent seeking), not so much "capitalist" in the sense of wage differentials (I earn a share of your labour).
Socialism is humanities natural organising pattern. Sharing stuff to get a collective result. You do it at home naturally- sharing food with your kids, partner, flatmate, friends.
In terms of running an country, if you want people to have better lives, we could direct the resources of the state towards that end.
If I want to run an operation lets say making devices - a supply chain I understand - hardware, software, delivery. I need real resources, skilled people, and capital.
For the all bar the latter, any fiscal system doesn't advantage/disadvantage the provisions of them - skilled people don't appear from thin air, and neither do real resources.
Capital now, more specifically the cost of Capital; the Government can borrow at long term rates which are unavailable to private industry. So it's possible to achieve an enormous cost differential between the state doing it collectively, or private capital funding.
The problem is not that Socialism works but that when all your needs are taken care of, people are harder to exploit.
Making everybody miserable, and afraid so that a vanishing small percentage of people can be supremely wealthy on a burning planet is not a great sell.
We don't need some hippy dippy fucking commune. I work providing gaming (sports betting mostly) so not some bleeding heart, the way that we make that money is about systemically addressing issues, to obtain a benefit by engineering, repeatable outcomes, with training, education, etc. If you want better outcomes, a Socialism/Other idealogical framing is not the reason it does/doesn't work, it's more complex.
Cuba has vastly better healthcare than we do ( Sanctions of course had no effect). Libya had free electricity, now has open-slave markets. Syria had free healthcare, now thanks to the US its run by Al-Qaeda and Healthcare is now not free.
Socialism is humanities natural organising pattern. Sharing stuff to get a collective result.
That's never been true. Not in the earliest societies or any that succeeded them. Someone always eats the most food. Someone always has the hottest cave girl / girlfriend / haram etc. Someone's always at the top - in capitalism it is more merit based than any Marxist nightmare, where its always just the party members.
For the all bar the latter, any fiscal system doesn't advantage/disadvantage the provisions of them - skilled people don't appear from thin air, and neither do real resources.
Again a total failure of understanding. It is the financial system and the rewards it provides that motivates the skilled people, incentivises the resource provision. In socialism, nobody bothers - you know it to be true.
Capital now, more specifically the cost of Capital; the Government can borrow at long term rates which are unavailable to private industry. So it's possible to achieve an enormous cost differential between the state doing it collectively, or private capital funding.
Government borrowing is totally tapped out. We spend more on debt service than most departments.
The problem is not that Socialism works but that when all your needs are taken care of, people are harder to exploit.
Socialism has never worked anywhere or at any time its ever been tried. It always ends in capitalism or communist killing fields. Why? Human nature. People respond to incentives. Its always been true. It will always be true, no matter how inconvenient socialists find it.
Making everybody miserable, and afraid so that a vanishing small percentage of people can be supremely wealthy on a burning planet is not a great sell.
Ironically you just described every implementation of socialism ever.
Cuba has vastly better healthcare than we do ( Sanctions of course had no effect). Libya had free electricity, now has open-slave markets. Syria had free healthcare, now thanks to the US its run by Al-Qaeda and Healthcare is now not free.
Cuba has people trapped by its own military, wholly unable to leave or they all would. Tell me you've never been there without using any of those words. Cuba is perpetually on the brink of poverty and out with Havana, often living through it. Libya & Syria had state torture, murder squads, and poverty. Popular leaders don't die in ditches. At this point you must be trolling. You can't possibly believe what you're typing. Its fully batshit crazy and totally ignores facts, reason, and history.
Firstly the Government as the currency issuer can never run out of money, given you lack even this basic understanding of economics it's difficult to educate you in a short post.
I'll do my best; Note the British Army like all armies is run by the State since the profit motive doesn't fit for things that need to work, with exactly the same rationale underpinning the WW2 War time nationalisation of Industries - it was too important to suffer the theft.
Cuba is indeed poor, yet has more doctors per capita, than the UK. You seem unable to draw any conclusions other than an Economic system is the sole factor underpinning all things, which again exposes how limited your understanding is. Do you think the Economic Sanctions had a) some effect, or b) no effect) when considering the "perpetually on the brink of poverty" ?
The UK has no sanctions, it's people are poor, the education is appalling, otherwise you'd understand that Socialism is already here, we collectively pay for the Army, that's a socialist enterprise, collectively funded to derive an advantage to the Country, which is carried out in flagrant defiance of a profit motive, because it's beneficial for the population.
The rest of your dribble, I'll only address for a Profit - as you can see Capitalism has rendered your education incomplete.
@GNU SedGawk
"Firstly the Government as the currency issuer can never run out of money"
Except for when governments kept printing money which devalued the currency so badly they could not afford the print run for the next batch. That government can run out of money has been demonstrated through history. They struggle with finance so badly they came off the gold standard for the very reason of running out of money. Since then governments have still managed to run down the value of their currency until they couldnt print any more.
"Cuba is indeed poor, yet has more doctors per capita, than the UK."
A while ago I read that for their part of trade they would be providing rum in place of currency. They ended up going backward to a barter system because the value of their currency wasnt worth it. A place so rich they will risk life and limb just to get to the capitalist hell of the US for a substantially better life.
"The UK has no sanctions, it's people are poor, the education is appalling"
So poor that we dont really measure poverty in this country anymore because it barely exists. Instead we measure inequality in the UK. And our education is so bad that the world top 10 universities contain 3 UK universities. Almost a third or the worlds highest ranking universities are in the UK. England to be specific.
You may not wish to proclaim the arrival of socialism to the UK considering the country has gone from managed decline under the tories to out right failure of government under this lot.
@AC
"Uh... https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn07096/
If you're that ill informed then presumably most of what you're saying is equally ridiculous?"
It tells you on that link that you are wrong-
> Relative low income: This refers to people living in households with income below 60% of the median in that year.
> Absolute low income: This refers to people living in households with income below 60% of median income in a base year, usually 2010/11. This measurement is adjusted for inflation
You will note that in their strange claim of Relative and Absolute they are in both cases using the relative measure of income below 60% of median income. Absolute poverty is a price parity adjusted figure of actual real poverty. Subsistence level and below. This is pretty much solved in rich countries excluding severe mental issues or severe addictions.
"So poor that we dont really measure poverty in this country anymore because it barely exists."
Only something that someone who's never held down a real job (or two) could every write. Definitely never had to clock on for a wage.
Sat in the middle of the pack with their head low. Dreaming of getting higher up the ladder, uncomptehendimg that they are only a rung or two above a much more uncomfortable life.
@AC
"Only something that someone who's never held down a real job (or two) could every write. Definitely never had to clock on for a wage."
You fry your argument without even realising it. A wage! A consistent pay for work instead of starvation and scrounging just to survive, I think you are proving your lack of understanding of ABSOLUTE POVERTY. I promise you the world is much bigger than your country.
Even the assumption you make by accusing me of not working while we message over the internet using technology such as electricity and electrical components plus the communication technology to transmit across the internet suggests you consider me a scrounger but obviously not in absolute poverty. That would only be possible from a social safety net that kept people clearly out of absolute poverty.
Next time think through your insults before sounding vastly detached from the real world.
@AC
"ABSOLUTE POVERTY
Oh. you only think people are poor if they are dead poor. That figures."
I am impressed how you can be pressed so close upon the answer as to tell us you are, yet cannot understand it. Poor can be defined in a real term (absolute poverty) which is about measuring poverty. In richer places it gets measured as relative poverty which is actually inequality NOT POVERTY.
In absolute poverty you can raise people out of poverty. You can solve poverty.
In relative poverty which is actually inequality you can not solve poverty. Someone will always be earning less than that 60% of medium income.
So if everyone in a country got richer by the same amount you could lift people out of absolute poverty. But not one person would be lifted out of relative poverty because it has nothing to do with poverty.
You have tried to interchange that with poor which is slightly different. I think it was the Adam Smith example of the linen shirt. If not having one is seen as a sign of poverty then you will be considered poor for not having one. It doesnt matter how good your life is and how rich you are you will always have people trying to make things a status symbol.
"But I was right, no? You never have clocked in for a wage. Trust fund?"
Not even close. You got 0/2 so far
Capitalism works until it doesn't. If left to its own devices it rapidly reverts to the Saturnian beasts of mercantilism, monopolism or corporatism and devours its own children
Capitalism - actual "fair and level playing field" capitalism is a very unstable and delicate state of affairs that needs a LOT of government oversight to keep things that way
It's Fascism in disguise.
We could live vastly better lives, of more ease, more happiness, less harm.
The biggest stumbling block is the huge numbers of people who cannot reason, do not engage with evidence and repeat obvious nonsense because compliance with authority is deeply socialised within our society to keep the wealthy on top, and the rest fighting over scraps from people who hate us.
What king worth of the name has people sleeping under bridges in his Kingdom.
What civilised nation sees children starve, and the elderly go without, when the coffers overflow with so much gold, you can purchase it from the country by the kilo.
We are condemn by mental walls, much higher than any physical ones, but we are all born free, and must claim our freedom, to live in the better world that is ours if only we've the courage to claim it.
Ukraine has tooled up a vast drone construction industry, building them at a rate of 10 million per year. Those who want the spread to lie that Ukraine is helpless without the US or that they're doomed to lose the war are wrong. No doubt some of the parts come from China, as almost nothing electronic can be built these days without any China content at all. But likely not directly from them, but via Europe.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/us/drones-are-the-new-weapon-of-modern-warfare-heres-how-ukraine-mastered-their-production-and-can-now-make-10-million-a-year-ukraine-news-russia-news/articleshow/121576197.cms
I think that's the official position. Apart from the risks that the current administration pose, this "mossad-like" act comes with plausible deniability.
But I also think that Ukraine's secret service now has better local knowledge and quite likely more than a few local agents.
Nice to see the use of "Mossad-Like" as shorthand for "Act of Terror carried out by Ukrainians".
Operations must be “necessary and proportionate” to be legally approved in this country, a European former spy chief told Israeli executives during a business conference, adding that the exploding pagers "did not meet [his] test.”
One official said it set a dangerous precedent that non-state actors, such as terrorists or criminals, might use. Another concern was how the explosive-packed pagers were smuggled across Europe and the Middle East, posing a danger to property and human life along the route.
A 'form of terrorism,' what 'the Russians would do'
Leon Panetta, former head of the CIA, even described the pager attack in a television interview as a “form of terrorism.” Some officials even nicknamed the attack “Operation Grim Beeper.”
“It was just the sort of operation the Russians would do,” said a former intelligence chief. “I don’t think any other Western intelligence service would even consider that sort of operation, maiming thousands of people.”
https://today.lorientlejour.com/article/1441487/a-form-of-terrorism-pager-attack-triggers-debate-among-western-security-chiefs-ft.html
Amazing how many times I've made the point that using a civilian as an unwilling suicide bomber is the problem.
Well, you've tried to make out that an unharmed civilian used as an unwitting driver was somehow a suicide bomber, but no-one with any brains believes you.
Maybe you should try calling them "martyrs", that usually gets a good response from sycophants.
I didn't see anything at all in the article indicating that the unwitting civilian (the truck driver) was killed. The sheds opened, the drones flew out, they flew to their targets, THEN blew up. In fact, according to the Russian Defense Ministry as quoted in the article: "No casualties were reported either among servicemen or civilians."
So stop trying to claim that Ukraine used "a civilian as an unwilling suicide bomber". It's not true.
So stop trying to claim that Ukraine used "a civilian as an unwilling suicide bomber". It's not true.
There's been a lot of 'reports' and many, many claims. I thnk the basic principle remains. Civilians were unwillingly or unknowingly roped into these attacks, and placed at risk. One claim I've seen suggested a police officer was killed when they looked inside a truck, or there was the failed attack where the truck blew up or burned on the way to the target. That that happened seems reliable, whether the driver was killed or injured hasn't been confirmed.
What is more certain is that Ukraine dropped a bridge on a train, killing and injuring multiple civilians. Whether that was intentional or not isn't clear, ie it may just have been bad luck that the train was hit. But Russia is treating that as a terrorist attack, along with the other bridge & rail attacks. It could be argued those were legitimate dual-use targets, but that doesn't really matter when it comes to Russia responding to that escalation. Especially given the timing.
"What is more certain is that Ukraine dropped a bridge on a train"
Which as we have already discussed is an allegation from the Russians who have provided not a single shred of evidence that the Ukrainians were responsible (so therefore probably a lie), whereas there is a credible mechanism of failure caused by repeated overloading and lack of maintenance, leading finally to collapse under heavy load, the last part of which is proven by the visual evidence of trucks on the bridge at the time of failure.
Which as we have already discussed is an allegation from the Russians who have provided not a single shred of evidence that the Ukrainians were responsible (so therefore probably a lie), whereas there is a credible mechanism of failure caused by repeated overloading and lack of maintenance, leading finally to collapse under heavy load, the last part of which is proven by the visual evidence of trucks on the bridge at the time of failure.
Whatever you're smoking, you should probably stop now. Trucks on a bridge is proof of repeated overloading? Wow! You better tell the press and the US Transport Secretary to ban all lorries from bridges because every road bridge that isn't closed to cars is about to suffer spontaneous and simultaneous structural failure. It was the excessive movement of strawmen that broke the bridge's backs! Multiple bridges, all close to expected Russian axes of attack, and all at the same time.
But Russia has since reported they've found traces of explosives, Russia has declared it a terrorist attack, and it was mentioned during the Trump-Putin call. Which prompted an uncharacteristicly subdued tweet from Trump that didn't include the overuse of caps. Just that there were no prospects for peace any time soon, Putin is rather unhappy and Ukraine can expect an official response to Russia. So basically Kiev have made their own bed, and now they get to lie in it. Another excuse for the US to walk away and claim that Ukraine is out of control.
Ukrainians pretty much all speak Russian natively and can pass for Russian. There were enough East Asians dumped in Ukraine by Stalin that Korean, or passing for Eastern Russian isn't a problem either
On the other hand, Russians speaking Ukrainian tend to do so with a marked accent that Ukrainians find extremely easy to weed out
We know that Russia seeded critical Ukrainian government role with their own people (and got detected). Ukraine is repaying the favour with interest and it only takes a few hundred to sow chaos across all of Russia
If Russia actually "won" and occupied Ukraine, it would have 43 million people (1/4 of the Russian population) with an axe to grind and the ability to grind it
There's also the issue that Russian oblasts east of the Urals have always been treated as "occupied territory" and most aren't that happy about being ruled from Moscow. Siberia managed to break away in 1917 for a couple of decades and that secessionist feeling never went away even through the Soviet days
I predicted that one of the outcomes of the Ukraine invasion would be another 2 dozen flags outside UN headquarters and that's still on the cards. The location of UN headquarters may be a different matter
A shibboleth is any custom or tradition, usually a choice of phrasing or single word, that distinguishes one group of people from another.
Leaving aside that Russia won already, that all we are witnessing is western leaders line their pockets with arms contracts, for as long as Ukrainian lives can be spent for PR.
If Russia actually "won" and occupied Ukraine, it would have 43 million people (1/4 of the Russian population) with an axe to grind and the ability to grind it has a good point neatly rebutting the farcical idea of Russian desires to "rule" Ukraine, not prevent Ukrainian Nazis exterminating anybody they see as not Racially pure.
The cognitive dissonance required to support Ukraine in oppressing Ethnic minorities, while supporting US Backed Zionist State Terrorist group's Genocide in occupied Palestine on full display.
Even better, no evidence is ever rebutted, it's just ignored. George railed against the theft of Palestine in 1948.
Orwell, 1984.“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. His heart sank as he thought of the enormous power arrayed against him, the ease with which any Party intellectual would overthrow him in debate, the subtle arguments which he would not be able to understand, much less answer. And yet he was in the right! They were wrong and he was right. The obvious, the silly and the true had got to be defended. Truisms are true, hold on to that! The solid world exists, its laws do not change. Stones are hard, water is wet, objects unsupported fall towards the earth’s centre. With the feeling that he was speaking to O’Brien, and also that he was setting forth an important axiom, he wrote: Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
Ukrainians pretty much all speak Russian natively and can pass for Russian. There were enough East Asians dumped in Ukraine by Stalin that Korean, or passing for Eastern Russian isn't a problem either.
Are you sure about that? Or is it part of the casual racism that helped fuel some of the 'N.Korean' propaganda? But possible, after all Russia kinda bridges Europe and Asia, so not very suprising to see 'Korean' looking Russians. Less common in the west of Ukraine, but that's partly due to the Banderites and their German allies massacring people they regarded as subhuman. And that desire hasn't really changed, ie the Kiev regime including their 'head of comedy'.. I mean 'state' referring to their slavic bretheren as 'orcs'. Live the perfect, idealised Arya.. I mean Ukrainian ideal, or else. How history repeats itself.
If Russia actually "won" and occupied Ukraine, it would have 43 million people (1/4 of the Russian population) with an axe to grind and the ability to grind it.
Ah, well.. Nope. But again you're missing the point regarding the coup and civil war. Prior to that, ie 2014-ish, Ukraine maybe had 43m people. Now, it's more like 30m and falling. A few million fled once the Banderites started bombing the Donbas, millions more after the SMO started. But quite a lot of those fled to Russia, and some have since returned. So it's more like 1/4 of the Ukrainian population either being Russian, or identifying with Russia. So simple stuff that the EU requires, freedom of expression, freedom of religion, freedom from discrimation.. All of which rather goes against the Banderites vision for Ukraine, and Ukrainians. Which is also why partitioning Ukraine along the Dnipr because that pretty much splits political and ethic divisions. Sucks a bit as it did with the partitioning of India, but if people are free to choose which side of the line they live on, it's workable.
Or perhaps not. After all most of Ukraine's resources, industry, economy and population are east of the Dnipr. Especially if Russia decides to recapture Odessa, which it'll probably do much the same way as it did the last time it expelled the Nazis from Ukraine. Land bridge to Moldova, Romania, Hungary and Poland get their territory back, and Ukraine goes the way of Yugoslavia. Just another 'failed state', helped to fail by the glorious West. Especially if the Ukrainians who've fled into the EU, UK, Monaco and Dubai don't actually want to go back to the rump of Ukraine either.
So Russia would have far fewer partisans and terrorists to deal with. Which it could do much the same way as it did with the Banderites after the Nazis were pushed out of Ukraine and then WW2 ended.. And they weren't exactly gentle, which is again one of the problems behind this conflict. Maybe some of their neo-nazis will again flee to Canada, and maybe some with be given a standing ovation by the Canadian parliament. That was suprising and depressing when a Ukrainian volunteer who'd fought against Russians in WW2 got such adulation from a bunch of politicians who didn't twig that that put the SS volunteer rather firmly on the wrong side of history. Expecting the EU to welcome a wave of neo-nazi asylum seekers could also be amusing to watch.
"Those who want the spread to lie that Ukraine is helpless without the US or that they're doomed to lose the war are wrong."
Quite.
Trump: "‘I’ve been watching for years, and I’ve been watching Zelensky negotiate with no cards. ... He has no cards. And you get sick of it."
Zelensky: "You mean this card?" [Plays King of Drones]
Has the US even said thankyou? For eliminating 30% of Russia's nuclear-capable strategic bomber fleet?
Has the US even said thankyou? For eliminating 30% of Russia's nuclear-capable strategic bomber fleet?
Or 15%. Or the US might not want to thank Ukraine, other than giving them the perfect excuse to walk away from supporting Ukraine after this major escalation that invites a harsh response. Trump may also have given the game away when he claimed that only Trump was preventing more serious consequences for Russia. If the US, NATO or EU seriously think that Russia is going to roll over and agree to Kellog's '22 point peace plan', then they're seriously deluded. Russians are calling for a harsh response, and one possibility given another attack on their nuclear triad, that could mean Russia calling a UN session and declaring war on Ukraine.. Which wouldn't be good for anyone, least of all the Ukrainians that are about to die when Russia responds to this escalation.
Which would change things IN Russia dramatically from the population's point of view and not in a way favourable to Putin's continued tenure.
That's why this was an insane move by Kiev. Nice PR stunt. Useful idiots in the West cheering, useful idiots in Russia demanding Putin hits Ukraine hard. Public opinion in Russia can be that Putin is being too soft on Ukraine so would probably support a war declaration. Which probably wouldn't actually change things very much IN Russia, unless they'd need to conscript more people. Which is one of those dumb 'expansionist Russia' memes. Russia's Constitution doesn't allow it to deploy a lot of it's forces outside Russia in peace time. Currently it's still recruiting a lot of volunteers who can be used in an SMO. If that's upgraded to war, then Ukraine might see what a 'full scale invasion' actually looks like.
And the twats in Kiev have given Putin all the excuse he needs, should he decide to take the gloves off. But one of the most bizarre things about our determination to do the regime change thing. The replacement for Putin might be even worse. Medvedev is just a tad hawkish, then there's the actual Russian opposition party, which never was Navalny's crew but the good'ol Communists who would actually be quite happy to see the restoration of the Soviet Union. So a bit like the situation in Syria. Yey! Assad is gone! Rejoice that there's now an Al Qaeda chappy in charge.
It's a "special military operation" for a reason
Yep, I know. Hence why I sometimes mock the afflictled that complain when I call it an SMO, which is rather different to a declaration of war.
Russia has already had to start conscription in limited ways; they have close to 1 million casualties, and you don't replace that many with volunteers, unless people are being voluntold.
Many initial volunteers were from the Wagner Group, and Putin imploded that.
So with nigh on .7% of the population being killed, there is starting to be a significant part of the population that knows of someone who has been killed.
tie this with the treasury emptying fast, and the PR hit from this attack, and no amount of accidental falls from the 7th floor will be able to silence the opposition.
"and you don't replace that many with volunteers, unless people are being voluntold."
There was a very interesting documentary on BBC Radio 4 a few weeks ago detailing how it works, and interviewing families of volunteers. They get well paid by their standards, a decent signing bonus and a multiple "death" bonuses from state and local government totalling more they would normally earn in a lifetime. For many, especially in the outlying regions, they see it as a way to provide for the families for the rest of their lives, whatever the outcome for the new recruit. How long they can keep up this level of spending is another matter, but for now, it does seem to be sort of attracting the numbers. Likewise whether the economy can sustain the war-footing and how the inevitable inflation afterwards might eat into those families "bonuses". But the new recruits are only seeing the very large number of Roubles providing for their families in the hear and now (and from the here-after)
Hence why I sometimes mock the afflictled [sic] that complain when I call it an SMO, which is rather different to a declaration of war.
"Special military operation" is nothing more than a made-up propagandistic term. As such, it's meaningless- or in your case, disingenuous- to argue as if there's any established and accepted meaning to judge against.
The only relevant thing is what the Russians wants to *pretend* it means and what they hope to achieve by using it. In this case, it's to maintain the pretence that the invasion isn't a war, and to avoid the consequences of formally declaring war.
"Special military operation" is nothing more than a made-up propagandistic term. As such, it's meaningless- or in your case, disingenuous- to argue as if there's any established and accepted meaning to judge against.
Except it's defined in Russian law. As is the more traditional 'war'. But on that point
Falklands War
Gulf War (parts 1 and 2)
War on Terror
Afghanistan War
War in Syria
Yugoslav War
Which of those were.. actually accompanied by any formal declaration of war? Sadly wars just aint what the used to be, especially when combined with doctrines like 'pre-emptive self-defence' that can be used to justify killing or displacing millions with a lot less paperwork or legal oversight. So if we can practice that kind of lawfare, why can't Russia? You don't think that might be just a tad hypocritical?
that could mean Russia calling a UN session and declaring war on Ukraine..
That really is the most tragically hilarious piece of shit I've seen in a while written about this conflict.
Apart from the fact that it's the line of the wife-beater or bully everywhere: "Look what you made me do! Don't make me angry or I'll do it some more."
Worse, it's fucking pathetic.
There isn't much room for escalation here, except for Russia to go nuclear. And you don't call a UN meeting do do that. The reason Russia hasn't already gone nuclear is the same reason they won't do it in response for this. The consequences are horrifcially dangerous. From global anti-Russian economic sanctions at the lower end, to the end of the world at the high end.
You also don't call a UN meeting to declare war. Unless you're calling for support from others. Especially not when you've been fucking fighting one for 11 years. Although if you want to ignore the undeclared hostilities from 2014-2022 (which were much less intense) - then we can say since 2022. And although it's not legally a war in Russia, Putin still made a TV announcement in advance of it - even if he called it a special military operation. That's as much of a declaration of war as you get nowadays. The formal declaration went out of fashion decades ago.
Again, we also come back to the "Russia strong!" meme. Russia is winning this war, the only reason they haven't won it already is that they're displaying such awesome restraint. Sure they failed to capture Kyiv in the first week, but that's because Russia sent its weakest troops. Putin is playing 5d chess, while Biden is playing snakes and ladders. The only reason that Russia have shown restarint in this war - is if there's a reason for it. They've used thermite cluster munitions on cities. they did it on day 1 of the war.
The reason Russia hasn't mobilised is because the risks of mobilising to Putin's regime are higher than the risks of not mobilising and fighting a 3 year bloody stalemate. Otherwise they've have mobilised, sometime around Summer 2022 - when it was obvious they couldn't easily win. It's a risk for Ukraine - because Russia is a big country and has a lot of people. Although mobilising now, would be much harder, given Russia has burned through so much of its stocks of old Soviet weapons.
Russian propaganda also persistenlty undermines the very powerful "Russia strong" meme - whenever they deploy the "poor Russian victim" meme. Sure you got your nuclear bombers blown up. So were you using them to launch cruise missiles at Ukraine? Yes. Well then. That's what happens. You fight a war, the other side gets a vote too. Don't want your shit blown up, don't use it to invade people. Giving aggressors safe zones, where they can hide their forces and keep attacking you with impunity, that's how you lose wars. Whining pathetically because the bully got punched back makes everyone laugh.
Actually that is a risk. This is too serious for laughing. Miscalculations are what often cause wars. And Putin's regime are the boy who cried nuke wolf. Which means we might miss the signal that actually does cause them to do it. But Ukraine are fighting a war for survival now. Escalating would be hitting the nuke manufacturing/storage sites or SSBNs up North. Otherwise shooting down an Iskander missile is nuclear escalation, seeing as they're also part of Russia's nuclear triad. Actually this is why I don't believe we should have nuclear capable tactical assets. If we want nukes, it should be a special weapons system. That we can ostentatiously deploy for signalling purposes. So the enemy know with confidence that if we fire an air launched cruise missile or tactical ballistic missile at them, that it's conventional.
Serious moron.
Russia has called it a SMO because that is less than a War - the appearance of Gaza is what you seems to be clamouring for. Yet after nearly three years of Russian involvements, the Coked-up Nazi Dwarf is still begging for more drugs in occupied Kiev.
You seem to really want them to harm Ukraine, so they can fulfil your sick projections.
What can you expect from your sort, twisted, ignorant, and secure in your delusion, unable to cite a primary source, or understand that objective facts are a thing, that it's clearly falsifiable the nonsense you endorse.
"other than giving them the perfect excuse to walk away from supporting Ukraine after this major escalation that invites a harsh response."
Why? Trumps "business deals" with the tariffs is being run exactly like a war. Everything carries ona "normal" right up to the moment the "deal" is signed. And if Trump thinks the "deal" is not being honoured properley in his eyes, all bets are off and the attacks begin again. Just as with Ukraine defending against Russia. There is no peace deal yet and Russia is not just continuing to attack Ukraine, it's stepping up the number and ferocity of attacks. So Ukraine is doing likewise. Just look at WWI. The Armistice was set and signed to come into force at 11am on 11/11. The guns were still firing right up the time the clock struck 11 in many cases. It's how war "works". It's shit. But it happens. And it's how Trumps Tariff war is operating. Trump should admire Zelensky for acting in a similar manner. But after his little chat with Putin, I have no doubt Trump will again blame Zelensky for not being at the peace table because Putin "needs to respond" to this attack. There'll never be peace if there's constant tit-for-tat and that's what Putin likes.
Russians are whining that those bombers were protected under the START2 treaties
The obvious counterpoint is that Ukraine isn't a signatory to that treaty and in any case Russia withdrew from it in 2022
I was surprised that Ukraine revealed how they'd shipped the drones, but it turns out one truck didn't make it to its destination because a driver grew suspicious of the roof and opened the covers - which were (quite sensibly) booby trapped and promptly blew up.
The impact of raising paranoia is interesting though. The Russians don't have enough "authorities" to inspect every single long distance truck but aren't "just waving anyone through". By all accounts backlogs are piling up and its rumoured that bribes aren't working, which opens the question of what happens when inspectors find the massive quantities of drugs and other criminal paraphenalia that's on the roads
I was surprised that Ukraine revealed how they'd shipped the drones,
I wasn't. It being a tad difficult to vaporise trucks and containers. There was always going to be a lot of evidence left behind.
The impact of raising paranoia is interesting though. The Russians don't have enough "authorities" to inspect every single long distance truck but aren't "just waving anyone through".
And do we?
By all accounts backlogs are piling up and its rumoured that bribes aren't working, which opens the question of what happens when inspectors find the massive quantities of drugs and other criminal paraphenalia that's on the roads
Yep, and the same will have to happen around Europe's airports and other sensitive sites. But Ukraine had a lot of experience smuggling drugs and other criminal paraphanalia out of Odessa's ports and into Russia and the rest of the EU. Which might be one of the reasons why Russia would be keen to take control and implement proper border security.
Its really pathetic how much you hate Ukraine and how it colours everything you write.
I don't think he hates Ukraine. I think he loves Tsar Vladimir and thinks the sun shines out of his nether regions, so he hates anyone Vlad tells him to. A bit like the Mitford girls or William Joyce, in WW2.
Nazis are bad. I'm in favour of fighting Nazis.
Putin objectively not a Nazi, care to explain all the Nazis stuff reported here https://thegrayzone.com/2024/04/07/centuria-ukraines-western-neo-nazi-army/ or respond to all the other evidence that Ukraine is stuff full of Nazis with NATO arms.
Why are Ukrainian Jews saying the country has lots of nazis ? https://archive.ph/uQEZk
Just adding this here because it's rather relevant to the actual events, possible outcomes and some responses were memory holed while I was composing it..
Or, given the evidence, the same person under an alt.
Uhuh. And all the people sh*tposting are the same person, probably under a bridge.. right? Or you really don't understand evidence, or things like lexical analysys because if you did, you'd quickly realise we're not the same person. Same principles apply to figuring out who's decided to flip to AC posting because some 'contributors' posting style can be rather distinctive.
Note that elsewhere Jellied references mocking people over the alleged meaning of "SMO"
It's pretty easy to mock people who don't understand some very basic, but important distinctions. And if they can't grasp that, there's little chance they understand any of the politics around this conflict. So they'll believe this is a war, 2022 was a 'full scale invasion'. Repeat a lie often enough and idiots believe it. They don't stop and think that Russia only committed a small fraction of their forces to their 'full scale invasion'.. Which was really a show of force that worked, drew forces Ukraine had built up in preparation for their own 'full scale invasion' of Donbas, and got Kiev to the negotiating table in Istanbul. Then, much as with Minsk, Kiev was offered billions if they'd just fight Russia instead. And no need for receipts.
But picking on another !War. So a while back, there was a 10 week special military operation against Argentina, commonly known as the 'Falklands War'. Except the UK never declared war, so it wasn't. See also-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undeclared_war
There is no specific format required under United States law for the way an official war declaration will be structured or delivered. The United States Constitution states: "The Congress shall have Power […] To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water"
So the US hasn't fought a war since 1942 and WW2. Which might suprise you, but that's just politics. It's fought many 'wars' since then, but if you don't actually declare one, you don't need to bother getting Congressional approval, or oversight. As Clauswitz famously said, war is foreign policy by other means. Foreign policy is an Executive, not Legislative function, so bombs away! But the US also has other related laws, like the Logan Act-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Act
The Logan Act (1 Stat. 613, 18 U.S.C. § 953,) is a United States federal law that criminalizes the negotiation of a dispute between the United States and a foreign government by an unauthorized American citizen. It is intended to prevent unauthorized negotiations from undermining the U.S. government's position.
Which is still on the US statute books, but hasn't been enforced since 1852, although there have been some rulings, like this-
[T]he President alone has the power to speak or listen as a representative of the nation. He makes treaties with the advice and consent of the Senate, but he alone negotiates. Into the field of negotiation, the Senate cannot intrude; and Congress itself is powerless to invade it. As Marshall said in his great argument of March 7, 1800, in the House of Representatives, 'The President is the sole organ of the nation in its external relations, and its sole representative with foreign nations.'
Yet for some reason, a simple Senator, Lindsay Graham has spent a lot of time (and taxpayers money) flying to Kiev and meeting with their head of state. But in order to avoid violating the Logan Act, presumably they only discussed the weather, football, piano playing and absolutely not embagoes or grape-crushing sanctions, because those are policy matters. Kellog can, because he's a special envoy and thus authorised to act on behalf of the President.
But I digress. So currenly there is no legally defined war between Ukraine and Russia. Russia is bound by their Constitution, just as the US, UK, EU etc are. None of the beligerents in this conflict have declared war, even though it might look & feel like a 'war'. In fact only one country has briefly declared war-
https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/germany-accuses-russia-of-twisting-baerbocks-war-comments-for-propaganda/
German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock riled Moscow with comments at an event in Strasbourg on Tuesday, when, speaking in English, she said that "we are fighting a war against Russia, and not against each other".
Which was quickly walked back because despite being Germany's Foreign Minister, declaring war is the German Chancellor's job.. But also why the correct use of language is important to prevent accidental declarations of war. Putin sees her comment, challenge accepted! and nukes Berlin.. Especially given if a war between NATO and Russia is initiated, it's rather time sensitive. Which is especially true now a NATO-adjacent state has launched a large attack against Russia's nuclear triad.. And this fired up again yesterday-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UVB-76
with some cryptic messages, and may or may not be part of Russia's 'Dead Hand' system that can automatically launch Russia's nuclear missiles at whatever they were last aimed at. Or it could be a variation on a numbers station and is messaging Russian agents in Ukraine, or elsewhere. We're living in interesting times, thanks to the Kiev clown and his antics. See also-
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2r108l785o
Speaking after a phone call with the Russian president, Trump said: "President Putin did say, and very strongly, that he will have to respond to the recent attack on the airfields."
Or as Medvedev put it "Our Army is pushing forward and will continue to advance. Everything that needs to be blown up will be blown up, and those who must be eliminated will be.". I really don't fancy Zelensky's odds of a happy retirement given his claimed involvement and oversight of the attacks on Russia. Maybe Russia has decided that it's past time Ukraine had a new President and government.
Maybe Russia has decided that it's past time Ukraine had a new President and government.
I thought Tsar Vlad had decided that back in 2022, when he invaded? He was clearly hoping for a quick replacement of the Ukrainian government by a Russian puppet regime, but 250,000 dead Russians later he's no closer to achieving it.
I can confirm, JE's prose is more fluent than mine. Mine has considerably more errors, since this stuff pisses me off, he presents as more dispassionate.
Frankly, I wouldn't mind being a little more eloquent and less offended by the stream of bilge, but frankly, it does offend me. It's so shameful to have this happen in front of our eyes, and have the frankly thin gruel served up as evidence.
I just don't see why people aren't more able to apply critical reasoning, even just look at the people telling you things, that's a reasonable guide to them being Liars.
When the people telling you Granny must freeze and Doctors and Teachers should be paid in applause, have a hundred year commitment to Ukraine; What? when was that on the ballot?
So far not a single person can explain why Ukrainians, The BBC, and assorted other people than Russia describe Ukraine as full of Nazis, including the Nazis interviewed by the BBC calling themselves Nazis in Ukraine, explaining why Ukraine needed Nazis.
I just don't see why people aren't more able to apply critical reasoning, even just look at the people telling you things, that's a reasonable guide to them being Liars.
Says the person who swallows every word fed to him by his Russian handlers!
Still, I suppose it keeps you off the streets.
How are the BBC reporting what a Ukrainian who says they are Nazis, Russian?
How are Israeli Media reporting a Ukrainian Zionist lobbying Israel to cut off arms supplies to Ukraine, resulting in a court-case in Israel against supplying Arms to Ukraine because of the Nazi thing. Russian?
How are US State Department saying we can't arm Ukraine because Nazis. Russian?
It's Racist and reductive that you think saying Russian is an answer to evidence. The BBC reported on Nazis - care to explain why?
I suppose they didn't trust them not to leak it
Given how Trump has treated Ukraine and Zelenskyy vs how he has treated Russia and Putin they'd be insane to trust us not to leak it. Even if Trump didn't personally do it there are some serious Russian sympathizers in his administration including his DNI Tulsi Gabbard. She has always been stridently pro Russia (Russian state TV refers to her as "our girl") I would not be willing to bet even a penny against her handing over to Russia any intelligence she gets regarding Ukraine they might find useful.
If Ukraine plays their cards right they might be able to use that to their advantage. They could pass along some fraudulent intelligence to the US via someone in the EU (with their knowledge and cooperation) in the hopes it ends up in Russia and Russia wastes effort trying to defend against some attack Ukraine isn't planning so they have less resources for the attack Ukraine IS planning. Or maybe claim they have a double agent in Putin's inner circle making him paranoid about those around him, perhaps resulting in a few of them falling out of 7th story windows.
These aren't any high tech military drones, basically consumer grade stuff that a dedicated shed owner could build, using parts from Amazon. They didn't even need huge warheads as they basically steered them into parked planes and detonated where it would do the most good (fuel tanks?). Being FPV there was no fancy guidance system, just a covert operator a few miles away steering them in.
It's an attack method that will have a lot of military types concerned as it's difficult to defend against.
It's an attack method that will have a lot of military types concerned as it's difficult to defend against.
It's certainly difficult to prevent the drones from being launched, but serious militaries have Hardened Aircraft Shelters (google it) which were typically designed to take a direct hit from a 2000lb bomb while protecting the aircraft inside. Militaries that habitually store their aircraft in those are likely at best to have some mild concern about one of their aircraft being hit between the hanger and takeoff/landing. It's unlikely that any warhead a drone can carry is going to make a dent in one of those shelters.
They'd probably do better dropping a lump of thermite on an unhardened WW2 era aircraft hanger that wasn't designed to withstand bombs landing on the roof, but serious militaries have replaced those or use them for keeping stuff out of the elements.
Militaries that have a habit of parking huge rows of aircraft outside on tarmac while using unhardened hangers (which is mostly the US & Russia) are liable to be a bit more worried, since as seen here it's damaged or destroyed potentially a third of Russia's strategic bombers at very low cost.
There are already no fly zones around airbases. If these no fly zones aren't enforced ruthlessly then a thousand worth of drone with a lump of thermite or similar can blow up aircraft worth a hundred million which takes 5+ years to replace. Therefore given that laser weapons are now a thing, there will simply have to be batteries of lasers around airbases, and the existing "no drone flight" areas will eventually be enforced with a 100kw laser shot through drones operating in banned airspace.
Peter2,
Pretty much every air force has a habit of parking aircraft outside. Because there often aren't enough hardened shelters to go around. Also these shelters have doors, and the problem with FPV drones is that they can be steered through them. Plus you've got parking areas for warming-up aircraft, taxi-ways, end of runway aprons for alert aircraft and ones being prepped for immediate operations and arming areas. You ideally don't want to store the bombs with the aircraft, which means you have to go somewhere to bomb-up.
As I see it militaries should be buying gatling guns on trucks - as fast as they can. Lasers and short range missiles are also important. But drones are cheap, and so I think its a combination of missiles and a mix of guns and lasers (depending on which is better/cheaper).
US/Russia park bombers outside because of START treaty so the other side can Satellite check that they haven't taken off, or been made ready to use.
It seems the Ukrainians have decided to withdraw the Americans from the START treaty, which Don Tariff denies all knowledge.
Why can't they attack the things they want to attack themselves without using unwitting uninvolved civilians as suicide bombers?
It would seem this is something that would have implications for shipping containers as well as Arms reduction treaties. Is this going to help occupied Kiev regime squeeze some more money out of gullible European taxpayers?
Basically a fancy truck bomb, the poor sod driving made a suicide bomber by a Ukrainian terrorist group. The reporting seems to suggest the trucks(possibly only the roof/launcher mech) destruct to prevent some details being discovered. Are conscripting unwitting people as combatants not terrorism if you do it to Russian Truck drivers?
Are Russians collectively responsible for the actions of their government such that a clearly civilian transport worker - so really strategic legitimate target, is okay to murder in this manner.
It seems the Ukrainians have decided to withdraw the Americans from the START treaty, which Don Tariff denies all knowledge.
START1 and 2 are treaties between the US and Russia. Ukraine aren't involved.
I don't believe the treaty demands planes to be parked outside. The US have kept their B2s in hardened shelters since they built them. But I don't know enough about the treaty to know that for certain. But a treaty between the US and Russia doesn't protect Russian assets they've been using to launch missiles at Ukrainian civilians.
Why can't they attack the things they want to attack themselves without using unwitting uninvolved civilians as suicide bombers?
No suicide bombers here. They delivered loads that the drones were launched from - they weren't part of the attack - and from footage I've seen the trucks didn't self-destruct or anything. If Russia chooses to do horrible things to innocent Russian civilians, that's on them - not Ukraine.
However, from what I've read, the Ukrainians also pulled the same trick with the bomb that blew up the Kerch bridge, back in 2022 - had it delievered by a Russian company from one side to the other, then set it off. Which means they killed the innocent driver. Not something anyone decent should be happy about. I've no idea whether that counts as legitimate under the laws of war, where you're allowed to kill civilians if the target is legitimate and the risk to civilians proportionate to the value of the target - war is never clean.
However, you seem to reserve your outrage for Ukraine. For destroying Russian assets that are used to deliberately kill Ukrainian citizens on a regular basis. So pardon me if I doubt your motivation.
The issue is using the Truck driver as a Suicide Bomber - Ukraine are entitled to attack Russian Material - I don't see how that is remotely ambiguous.
The people of Ukraine and the people of Russia are not proxies for their respective armed forces. If you unwilling force someone to act as a proxy for an armed force - you are a terrorist.
Ukraine can attack as many legitimate targets according to the same IHL which governs armed conflicts. You can handwave away that using civilians for military purposes is essentially strapping a bomb to the poor truck driver.
It's Terrorism - They have an entire front with lots of uniformed people they can attack, so why the suicide bombing - because it was intended to disrupt the Ukrainian surrender to reality talks in Istanbul.
Long term more nuclear weapons, and Russia/US nuclear brinksman ship is not good for the world.
So Ukraine, the Nazi Regime in Kiev perpetrating a Terrorist attack on a country that has very large numbers of rocket launched nuclear weapons, using an innocent civilian truck driver, with a bomb in the truck to achieve a PR victory is not great.
What's troubling is that one of the only people to correctly spot just how fucking stupid this was, was the resident crackpot.
You can't seem to get it. Russia doesn't give a shit about land, it's the people of Ukraine who wanted Russian protection from the Bandera regime who are quite happy to have a nuclear war, because the worst fate for these scum is old age and irrelevance.
You are basically unable to put yourself in the shoes of the Russians, and not want Nazis on your border oppression people who speak your language, who have family in your country, cheered on by poorly educated western morons.
Russia may not be a perfect society, but you'd have to be stupid to look at the UK/US and Russia and conclude it's the Russians who are the threat to humanity, either in the past or the present.
"Suicide Bomber"
You keep using that phrase. Clearly you have you very own speshul meaning that the rest of the world doesn't agree with. None of the drivers were sent into a place where the truck blew up, killing them and that was never the intention. It's been reported that one driver may have tried to break into the cargo and was killed by a booby trap. That's not a suicide either, by any sane definition.
The truck blew up on video, it clearly had a bomb in the back. If the driver was in that truck he'd have died.
It's an act of Terrorism to put a bomb in a Truck and get some poor sod to deliver it, and blow up in the process. That's an unwitting suicide bomber, you've forcibly converted to a combatant in your terrorist group of banderites.
You've bit by bit admitted its a suicide truck bomb, because you're so eager for your terrorism to reap some engagement. Well congratulations, you killed some poor working slob driving truck trailers around.
Your Hero Bandera will be proud.
"You've bit by bit admitted its a suicide truck bomb,"
You are so far down the rabbit hole, you don't even know who you are responding to any more.
Your reply is entirely wrong and most especially the bit quoted above.
Face facts. They put a bomb in a truck trailer. That bomb would kill the driver. It's on video. The driver being likely to die is almost certainly a dupe, an unwitting victim of the terrorists who have placed a bomb in the truck.
That you cannot demonstrate sufficient object permanence to understand logically the consequences of the sequences of evidence, offers a pretty obvious conclusion.
A Terrorist group tricked some poor Truck driver into driving a Truck bomb and dying in the resulting Blast. That the trailer has some drones in doesn't mean the Driver wasn't forced to become a combatant by a banderite terrorist group.
Try to read more, watch less TV. Do some thinking.
"As I see it militaries should be buying gatling guns on trucks"
Actually, I think the (partial) solution was discussed in these hallowed pixels about 6 weeks ago (17 April):
Brit soldiers tune radio waves to fry drone swarms for pennies.
In this case at least, the drones appear to have been less a swarm, than a cab-rank - the reason we have good pictures to confirm some of the destroyed aircraft is that each drone tended to fly along the flight line and recorded images of each aircraft that had previously been struck, and were apparently coming from a single point at each airfield attacked (there seems to have been only one Ukrainian Aircraft carrier per target airbase). That would seem to be well suited for the British RF-DEW to deal with, though obviously, multiple attack points against a single airbase would be possible, and significantly complicate the issue.
They do have doors, bloody great big ones at that.
Check out this RAF training video from the late 80s featuring Windsor Davies for more information.
I think the HAS's that the Iraqi air force had in 1991 were destroyed by 2000lb weapons, so not quite as tough as you suggest, though obviously would be proof against a small drone.
However, HASs cost money, and a HAS big enough to protect a TU-95 would be very large (and very expensive). Building one for every airframe means ~100 HASs (assuming that the decision to build the HASs would have been made when the fleet was at its maximum size), but then its obvious where all your TU-95s are, so you might want to build more HASs then planes, so a potential enemy doesn't know which HAS contains a plane and which doesn't - and now you are spending truly huge sums of money. Also, it would only be effective if they were kept fully closed up all the time - even a small personnel access door left open is a big enough gap for a drone to get in.
Also, an aircraft in a HAS is not actually much use - it needs to come out at some point if it is to be used. The Russians have shown a preference for using their strategic bombers to launch nocturnal missile strikes against Ukrainian cities and other civilian targets, making their operations at least partially-predictable, so even with HASs, this strike could still have been undertaken, with the attack launched as the bombers lined up for take off.
> serious militaries have Hardened Aircraft Shelters
At which point you target the parts warehouse, or the substation powering the airfield, or the factory making the parts for the aircraft
You can't go fully 1945 Germany and have your entire defence industry under a mountain
It's an attack method that will have a lot of military types concerned as it's difficult to defend against. ...... Ianab
It’s an attack method that is incredibly easily personified and that will have a lot more than just military types concerned as it is practically impossible to be safely and securely defended against.
The list of possible and newly recognised as impactful and disruptive targets is virtually limitless.
Send you child to school wearing an anti-Tesla safety backpack
"and detonated where it would do the most good (fuel tanks?)"
Is setting off thermite "detonation"?
It's less spectacular than things which go bang but just the ticket when there's fuel involved or engines to disable and tyres on the wings are beneficial for that kind of loadout
"Were those winter tyres? They're no use against Summer drones"
Then who supplied the parts/technology?
Ukraine had their own anti-ship ballistic missile program before the war started (Neptune) - and had a decent sized arms industry with many international clients. Since being invaded they now have a huge arms industry.
In fact there are Ukrainian companies who are now asking their government to change the law - which prohibits the export of weapons (since the invasion) - as they're now able to make more drones than the Ukrainian government can afford - so why not make them a bit cheaper by exporting and gaining more economies of scale? Plus earn valuable foreign currency.
There are various international coalitions assisting Ukraine. I know the UK have allocated money to the Ukrainian government to spend on building their internal drone industry. As well as jointly leading the drone coalition (with Latvia). But a quick look suggests this coalition is more about buying kit outside Ukraine, than transferring technology or building Ukriane's industry? Quick linky to an overview of the assistance coalitions - not sure if this is defnitive, but it includes the ones I knew about.
UK are also leading the Naval coalition with Norway - and I know we helped provide boats the Ukrainians turned into naval attack drones at one point.
In general though, Ukraine aren't lacking in knowhow (except for the most complex weapons systems). It's resources they're short of.
And almost certainly intended and why Ukraine has published such detail on how this was achieved.
Along with the comment that "What’s most interesting, and this can now be stated publicly, is that the 'office' of our operation on Russian territory was located directly next to FSB headquarters in one of their regions," which may or may not be true, but has probably caused absolute panic and seen every FSB regional office raiding neighbouring units and businesses to work out if it might have been under their noses.
Aside from being a wildly successful and audacious operation in terms of it's anti-aircraft objectives, demonstrating an ability to run covert ops deep inside Russian territory will have put the frightners on from Kaliningrad to Beringovskii. Oh, you thought Vostochny was too far east and out of Ukraine's reach? Maybe. Maybe not...
Oh I'm quite sure the impact was very much intended by Ukraine as a way of crippling Russia's shipping and transit industry. They can't just check stuff at the borders because they have no way of knowing how much other stuff Ukraine has smuggled in over the past year and a half - likely the reason they made it public how long the operation has been underway. Given that Ukraine occupied a small part of Russian territory for some time so any "border" checks were useless for months, Russia will either have to keep checking everything or risk another similar attack should they grow complacent.
Stroke of genius, and I love the giant egg on Putin's face. Pints all around for those who planned executed this strike!
According to many reports on-line, a side effect of the drone strike is that Russia now checks each and every truck coming into the country. Security theatre or not, this seriously disrupts their logistics....... Art Slartibartfast
One imagines now every enemy is vulnerable to imported containered explosive attack .... which is a real bugger and very effective disruptor for the business of MAD trade.
"One imagines now every enemy is vulnerable to imported containered explosive attack .... which is a real bugger and very effective disruptor for the business of MAD trade."
Potentially an Isaac Asimov short, but an SF short I read many, many years agp, titled IIRC "A Message to Howard Hughs" had a very rich philanthropist wanting world peace build a number of nuclear bombs and ship them to all the important capital cities of the world. He then warned the word to de-nuclearise and any country which didn't would lose it's capital city. Not sure of the exact order of events, but I think one was set off because they tried to call his bluff, and then everyone decided it might be better if no one had nuclear weapons any more,
All a bit idealistic, and required setting up an international and independent group to continue control of "capital city nukes", to keep the threat viable and almost certainly unworkable in the real world, but seemed like a feel-good story at the time to this then early teen-ager living through the cold war in the wake of the Cuban missile crisis :-)
It's a Terror attack because they took an unwitting civilian truck driver and made him an suicide bomber. On at least one video a truck is shown to explode in a manner leaving no possibility for the driver to survive. It looks like an internal blast, i.e. nothing hits the truck.
If Ukraine wants to attack Russian Material, that's fair game.
Sticking a bomb in the back of some civilian truck driver cargo is Terrorism, even when you do it to unpeople like Russians or Palestinians.
The truck will be the recipient of inbound artillery, so if the driver survives the explosion - which the reporting coyly describes as obscuring how rectangular boxes ascend vertically through a hole in a roof;
not being a Truck bomb that kill the driver once his Suicide mission has been fulfilled.
You're drawing sweeping conclusions from incomplete information. Whether it's true or not – and I personally think there was a lot more to the attacks than we know – the Russians will spin as a handful of Ukrainian terrorists. Cue rounding up "foreign-looking" lorry drivers, confessions obtained by torture and one-way tickets to the front for Compost Duty™
But everyone involved will have know the risks and gone along willingly, as is standard for covert ops on enemy territory. Destroying these planes will reduce Russia's own ability to attack civilian targets in Ukraine and might even help bring the war to an end sooner.
They put a bomb in the back of a Truck. They smuggled the Bomb bits in shipping containers. It's a Suicide Truck Bomb. Ukrainian Fascist Nationalist Terrorist have been using bomb sent through the post in Europe since 1940s
Stern Gang (Lehi) Letter Bombs in 1946–1947: letter bombs to British officials in 1946 and 1947 via postal services, designed to explode upon opening, with the intent to injure or kill recipients.
In 1946, letter bombs were sent to British officials including Sir Stafford Cripps, Ernest Bevin, and Anthony Eden. Notably, Anthony Eden carried a letter bomb in his briefcase for a day, unaware of its nature, until warned by police based on MI5 intelligence.
Using unwitting civilians to deliver explosives through the post is Terrorism. Using the Truck Driver as a suicide Bomber is Terrorism. The person flying the drones, and assembling the drones are terrorists, like all the other people involved in this.
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It's not a suicide bomb truck, since there was no design that the truck driver suffers any injury, nor any reasonable expectation that the truck driver might be injured.
There is supposedly video in circulation that shows one of the truck drivers being killed, but only after he had left his truck and was climbing onto the trailer when it burst into flames. As far as I am aware, there is no basis to assess whether the trailer igniting was due to a deliberate mechanism within it, or whether it was caused by a technical failure / premature detonation of a drone. Either way, had the driver been in his cab, he would have been unhurt, and been able to safely escape.
There is also a report that a second driver may have been killed, after a mob saw the drone launch and murdered him. Again, clearly not a reasonably predictable outcome of the attack.
The use of unwitting truck drivers to move the drone carrying trailers (Ukrainian Aircraft Carriers, as I have seen them now being described as) could reasonably be considered to have endangered civilian drivers, but only to a degree that was justifiable by the military need (and therefore not in breach of the Laws of Armed Combat). It was however, entirely reasonable for the Ukrainians to expect that all the drivers would survive uninjured.
No intent to kill the drivers, and no reasonable expectation that the drivers would die - therefore, quite clearly, not a (unwitting) suicide attack.
Oh come off it. They got people in country, or got their people in, who did the assembly. Smuggled them the bomb bits. They assembled them and put them in a truck trailer The Trailer itself various reports saying it had modifications, so likely that was sent pre-modified as the mechanism itself is unlikely to be that interesting.
So they now have a modified truck trailer loaded with drones/bombs, some poor sod gets the job, turns up driving his Cab - hitches on to the trailer - drives to where he's told. and presumably it's a gps in the drone to let them know when to launch.
That combined with reports of explosive in the trailer is a Truck bombing without the Driver knowing, it's clearly terrorism.
The Target doesn't make any real difference, it's purely willy waving, and worse it seems to have impressed the credulous sufficiently. Despite clearly being pointless act of terrorism which will do naff all to stop Ukrainians dying by sabotage surrender talks, and prevent more Ukrainians being kidnapped and forced to die, so people can cheer on Nazi Ukraine.
Despite the efforts to normalise the US Backed Zionist State Terrorist group. There is still the basic facts 1) this is a PR victory - great - 2) it's an act of Terrorism using a civilian as an unwitting suicide bomber.
That you think this makes Ukraine look good, or Russia look bad is farcical. Sure it's a PR victory, and corresponding PR loss but only amongst supporters of Ukrainian Terrorists.
Hundreds of Billions of Arms provided to Ukraine, and you're impressed by a Terrorist group forcing your local postie into being a suicide bomber for a Truck bomb.
Some Willy alright.
This is both a PR victory, and a significant military victory in that approximately one third of russia's strategic aviation has been destroyed or damaged along with a quarter of russia's AWACS fleet with a replacement cost in the tens of billions and requiring decades to build them in exchange for drones worth perhaps a million with a build time similar to the time spent reading this. You can tell that even a russian can see how much that hurt them by how deranged the propaganda is about it.
If russia hadn't have been using them to toss cruise missiles into their cities then they probably wouldn't have felt the need to destroy a bit over a third of your bomber fleet. Doing this is not an act of terrorism; it's part of a war that Russia started. Obviously Russians can't take being hit back. That's part of war you know; retaliation.
Also the civilian wasn't used as a suicide bomber. The Ukrainians didn't blow the driver up; if what russians say about the driver being murdered by a sociopathic russian lynch mob after seeing the drones launch is true then i'm afraid that's on the russian murderers. Assuming that they weren't the police, of course. Given that the police do the same things in Russia it's difficult to know. Normal countries just detain people and hand them over to the police who then interrogate them for information and so everybody would tend to assume that would be what would have happened to the driver.
You accept that using a unwitting civilian as a suicide truck bomber is an act of Terrorism but presumably dispute the video of an exploding truck, that clearly had something blow up from the inside, that looks very much like a self-destruct mechanism designed to kill the driver and hide details of the concealment.
Attacking the Planes is foolish but legitimate military target, it's materiel of Russia. However that could have trigged a nuclear response. why exactly is that okay?
It's chiefly a counter-intelligence failure on the part of the Russians. However given they are fighting the entire collective West, it would be frankly amazing if the US Proxy in Kiev didn't get the odd victory.
in terms of outcome, We're going to pay more for global logistics thanks to Ukraine, and otherwise will make no difference to the eventual dissolution of the Ukrainian rump state as Romania, Poland, Hungary, Moldova, Slovakia assert their claims. A small landlocked rump of Ukraine might remain - but Banderite Ukraine is on the way out.
Ukrainian Nazis forcing civilian Truck Drivers into being Suicide bombers is Terrorism.
Supporting Nazis puts you on the wrong side. It makes you feel good, justifying forcing uninvolved Russian Civilian Truck Drivers to participate in Suicide Bomb attacks by Ukrainians Nazis. It's utterly indefensible. to support Nazis, and even better you feel your Racism is justified. Because of you utter inablity to challenge any evidence like the following. .
You throw around Insults as if A Nazi supporter has standing to insult anybody, You are pleading that you are too stupid or too racist, or both too racist and too stupid to care that you are supporting Nazis forcing some poor civilian into being a Suicide Truck Bomber, you evil fuck. And I'm supposed to take your insult seriously, fuck off.
ionism and Ukrainian Nationalism in history
The apparent elective affinity between Zionism and Ukrainian nationalism is seen in the relationship between Jabotinsky and Symon Petliura, the leader of the Ukrainian National Army (UNA).
Petliura was a proto-fascist and his UNA was responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of Jewish civilians in 1919.
Petliura was famously assassinated by Sholem Schwarzbard in 1926 while walking on the Rue Racine in Paris. Schwarzbard had lost family in the pogroms and is usually described as an "anarchist" or "communist."
"I have killed a great assassin”, he is reported to have said after being apprehended by the police. He was eventually acquitted of the murder.
in 1921, Jabotinsky had “signed an agreement” with Petliura to supply Jewish soldiers to his army. This was, according to Haaretz, a “complicated and embarrassing episode ” for the Zionist movement.
A famous Soviet cartoon at the time depicted Jabotinsky weeping at Petliura’s grave.
Zionism and Ukrainian nationalism today
Zionist ambivalence about Ukrainian nationalism continues to this day.
On the one hand, a few Ukrainian Zionists have warned of the rise of Nazi movements in Ukraine. They have pointed to the adoration of Stepan Bandera, the heir of Petliura, as the leader of the Ukrainian nationalists.
One is Eduard Dolinsky, director of Kiev-based Ukrainian Jewish Committee. He has been “intensely critical of Ukrainian efforts to rehabilitate nationalist Holocaust-era Nazi collaborators”.
As a result, he has faced “threats from nationalists”. Dolinsky has though been a lonely voice.
https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2023/07/15/707082/Ukraine-Nazism-Zionism-How-Deeply-Intertwined
And let us recall this was not some sort of simmering border dispute like India-Pakistan or India-China but an unprovoked attack by Russia in 2014 which the West collectively failed to give a strong response too.
This emboldened Dobbie in his Make-The-Soviet-Union-Whole-Again project.
The people of Moldova, Estonia, Lithuania, as well as Poland and Romania all know where this is going. So does Orban, but he's quite a Dobbie fanbois.
Western democracies spend coin now, or lives later.
Make a choice and let your local politicians know it.
@John Smith 19
"And let us recall this was not some sort of simmering border dispute like India-Pakistan or India-China but an unprovoked attack by Russia in 2014 which the West collectively failed to give a strong response too."
Whatever we wish to think of Ukraine/Russia in this war it wasnt an unprovoked attack in 2014. Encouraging them to overthrow the government to which the former leader (pro Russian) was exiled to Russia. Then the CIA moving in on Russia's doorstep. The EU trade deal to pull Ukraine into the western sphere of influence.
You are right there was no strong response in 2014 and it only paused during Trumps first term when the US gave a much stronger response.
You are deluded, and spreading propaganda like your model number indicates your series of NAFObot designs.
The US sponsored a coup via the CIA front group NED in 2014, leading to Nazis forcing people into the Trade Union building and setting ablaze killing many people, injuring many more.
On May 2, 2014, heavily-armed fascist militia forces attacked the House of Trade Unions in Odessa, Ukraine. Trapped inside were demonstrators opposed to the right-wing government in Kiev that had been put in place in a U.S.-orchestrated coup just weeks earlier.
The new government had been established in the wake of the February 2014 “Euromaidan” protests that overthrew the corrupt albeit democratically-elected administration of President Viktor Yanukovych. Trying to play Russia and the EU off one another to get the best economic deal for Ukraine when he was in charge, Yanukovych became the target of Western-backed business interests in Ukraine and ultra-nationalist groups. The latter joined together, with U.S. support, to carry out a coup and sent Yanukovych running for Moscow.
In the wake of that coup, labor unions and left-wing parties were severely repressed in Ukraine, and activists of the Communist Party of Ukraine and other groups were forced underground. Across the country, a campaign of ethnic erasure was launched against Russian-speaking Ukrainians, with the Russian language being banned from public life.
In the mostly Russian regions of eastern Ukraine, a violent war ensued between the Kiev government and separatists. By the end of 2021, it had taken over 15,000 lives. Commanders from openly neo-Nazi and fascist groups like the Azov Battalion were integrated to become brigades of the official Ukrainian Armed Forces and given free rein in the Donbass.
So, by the time that Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered his military to invade Ukraine in February 2022, war had already been raging for years in eastern Ukraine. Chances for peace—both before and after the invasion—were repeatedly scuttled, often at the insistence of Kiev’s allies in Washington.
https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/the-odessa-trade-union-massacre-ten-years-later/
Backlit by the glow of urine, the stench filling the air, the basements bound Banderite belches rage filled epithets and empty declarations of disparagement.
Are you available for speaking engagements, children's parties. Look kids, this is your brain on Bandera, It's like Cake but makes your eyes Brassy.
It's Terrorism because of involving a civilian. Covert operations don't involve forcing some poor sod to be a suicide bomber or part of your explosive smuggling scheme.
If you'd airdropped your people with their kit, and they had done this, you could make that argument.
It's just Terrorism because you're willing to accept it, despite it putting civilian truck drivers at risk of death for the crimes of being a civilian truck driver. That's Terrorism.
The fact that there is an active front line, with plenty of target that are 100% legitimate to attack, doesn't strengthen your case at all. It's an act of obvious terrorism which has zero effect on the outcome of the SMO, and cements the West as supporters of Terrorism.
That you are genuinely too ignorant to understand how poorly this reflects on our desire to have a global world, free of Terrorism where Armed conflicts have some semblance of law governing them.
If this happened to us in the UK or to the US, we or they would have our population screaming to nuke somebody.
Attacking Nuclear bomber planes, in act of Terror. Cheered on by armchair general morons.
not attacking the planes - the target is reckless but that's not the problem.
The use of the Civilian as unwitting combatant, and unwilling suicide bomber is Terrorism.
If Ukraine did this from Ukraine with their people, or it was their guy driving the trucks, you could perhaps make that argument. But as described it's a terrorist group who blew up something using a suicide truck bomb that brought the planet closer to nuclear death for PR.
You can pretend this like launching the drones from Ukraine into Russia and targeting the planes, but it's not, this is Terrorism - political theatre intended to serve the propaganda aims of the Banderite regime.
It's a blessing Russia has a level headed leader, because if this happened to the UK or the US someone would have been nuked. The Ukrainians attacked a facility relating to nuclear weapons.
That's all kinds of fucking stupid - Russian Federation spans 11 timezones, it has planet killing nukes, it's not your fucking call to kill us all for Bandera.
US backed Zionist State Terrorist group has entered the chat.. How does the Magic Jew theory work. https://www.mintpressnews.com/ukraine-jewish-president-zelensky-made-peace-neo-nazi-paramilitaries/279862/
Did the US become a racial utopia once the Black president who backed Al-Qaeda [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Sycamore ] was elected - does it only work for Zionist Jews - is Mexico free of Racial violence now that they have a anti-Zionist Jew as President? How do you explain Trump being elected directly after Obamba given the mere presence of Black faces in High Place eliminated all racism in the US? Given the number of Jewish people advocating for Genocide in Palestine, openly such as https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/06/tales-of-infanticide-have-stoked-hatred-of-jews-for-centuries-they-echo-still-today who claims that telling you Zionist murdering Palestinian Children is unacceptable not due to accuracy. Sorry but Zionism has comprehensively demolished that defence.
There is a lot of people lying to us right now, and the balance of evidence, which I've cited, much of which comes from western media organizations who seems to have completely disavowed their own stories,
For example the bbc makes a pull quote in this recent piece where essentially they say Putin is making it all up the NAZI are exaggerated etc. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-60853404
This is the quote to show Putin is full of it "A gang of neo-nazis and drug addicts who settled in Kiev and took the entire Ukrainian people hostage"
- even allowing for translation, that's an interesting an nuanced statement which accords with reality.
A. Firstly Azov/C14/Adair/Right Sector are clearly identifiable as a "A gang of neo-nazis and drug addicts". https://www.mintpressnews.com/ukraine-jewish-president-zelensky-made-peace-neo-nazi-paramilitaries/279862/
B. Secondly Those gangs have taken on an official function in the Ukrainian state, including senior positions in the Armed forces and Police in Kiev.
C. Finally, the President doesn't have any power over them.
That's quite a lot, but they are clearly falsifiable propositions,
A. https://williamrisch.wordpress.com/2014/02/07/dmytro-yarosh-leader-of-right-sector-when-80-of-the-country-does-not-support-the-regime-there-cant-be-a-civil-war/
B. "...the defence ministry even made the group’s leader an official adviser..."
https://www.france24.com/en/20150904-ulraine-right-sector-pravyy-sektor-paramilitary-eastern-war-neo-nazi-patriots-revolutionnar
C. https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/im-not-a-loser-zelensky-clashes-with-veterans-over-donbas-disengagement.html
So many juicy details for a observant eye
Use of private dwellings as military bases by the Ukraine militias.
The locals not wanting them there, the militias using the locals as human shields..
The president being unable to control them.
So okay, on the other side -the story is Putin is a madman who wants to have a big empire, and that's supposed to be the credible side?
The Israeli press of which I'm not a fan, but they suggest these people are bunch of racist degenerates.
So do others.
"Concerns were raised by a group of more than 40 human rights activists who filed a petition with Israel's High Court of Justice demanding the cessation of the arms deal. According to the Israeli newspaper Haaretz[1], the petitioners have argued that these weapons serve forces that openly espouse a neo-Nazi ideology and cite evidence that the right-wing Azov militia, whose members are part of Ukraine's armed forces, and are supported by the country's ministry of internal affairs, is using these weapons."
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20180710-rights-groups-petition-israel-to-end-arms-sale-to-neo-nazi-group/
[1] https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2018-07-09/ty-article/rights-groups-demand-israel-stop-arming-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine/0000017f-e080-d7b2-a77f-e3870e1c0000
So what is going on? because this seems rather like the Russians are helping a smaller state who is under attack and fighting for their independence against a bunch of fascists who have basically taken the country hostage.
Lets say that is not the case, why does the press seems to have completely changed it's mind to accord with the US foreign policy position of the day?
compared to Say "Neo-Nazi groups recruit Britons to fight in Ukraine" https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/02/neo-nazi-groups-recruit-britons-to-fight-in-ukraine
Some of the people are reported to have done gruesome things to their fellow Ukrainians
Once condemned by Ukrainian officials and imprisoned for sadistic torture and the rape of minors, leaders of the notorious Tornado Battalion are free under Volodymyr Zelensky’s orders.
After banning virtually his entire political opposition, publishing a blacklist of foreign journalists and academics accused of advancing “Russian propaganda,” and ramming through a law exempting 70% of Ukrainians from workplace protections, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenksy has freed from prison fascist militants convicted of some of the most heinous crimes the country has seen since World War II.
According to a July 11 report in Ukrainian media, Ruslan Onishenko, commander of the now-disbanded Tornado Battalion, was freed as part of President Zelensky’s scheme to release prisoners with combat experience. Along with an unwavering commitment to fascism, Onishenko is known as a psychopathic sadist who was involved in sexually assaulting children, brutally torturing prisoners, and murder.
Onishenko’s release follows a February 27 order by Zelensky to free other convicted former Tornado members like Danil “Mujahed” Lyashuk, a fanatic from Belarus who has openly emulated ISIS and boasted of torturing captives for sheer enjoyment. According to Zelensky‘s decree, prisoners with combat experience would be allowed to “compensate for their guilt” by fighting in the “hottest spots.”
https://thegrayzone.com/2022/07/30/zelensky-militants-convicted-child-rape-torture-military/
In Ukraine I'd agree with you.
But I first heard the expression "Jewish Fascist" watching a rerun of an old "40 Minutes" documentary from th 90's.
It was said by a Kibbutznik on his military services in the West Bank about the behaviour of the Jewish squatters on the West Bank.
The cutting off of food, water and fuel supplies into Gaza is exactly equivalent to the same behaviour by the Nazis to the Warsaw Ghetto and meets the UN definition of genocide, not to mention the 40:1 Palestinian : Israeli kill ratio.
All because Netanyahu decided to play divide-and-rule games with desperate people sitting on top of half a trillion dollars of oil and gas (according to the UN).
Not exactly "The moral high ground," is it?
All because Netanyahu decided to play divide-and-rule games with desperate people sitting on top of half a trillion dollars of oil and gas (according to the UN).
Don't forget his trial has been put on hold because of this rather convenient crisis..
Leibowitz who passed away in 1994 in Jerusalem, cautioned that the state of Israel and Zionism had become more sacred than Jewish humanist values and controversially went on to describe Israeli conduct in occupied Palestinian territories as “Judeo-Nazi” in nature.
Outraged by Israel’s killing of 60 villagers of Qibya in 1953, most of whom were women and children by the notorious Israeli commando Unit 101, known for its brutality and retribution campaigns, Leibowitz has been quoted as saying:
We have to ask ourselves where this youth of ours emerged from; young people who had no mental inhibitions about committing this atrocity? What inner motivation for such acts could have been at work here? This youth is not a mob but the product of Zionist, humanist social education.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20181112-chomsky-echoes-prominent-israeli-warns-of-the-rise-of-judeo-nazi-tendencies-in-israel/
Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party" (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.
The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin's political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.
Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin's behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.
The public avowals of Begin's party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.
Attack on Arab Village
A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants240 men, women, and childrenand kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.
The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.
Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model.
During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.
The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/einstein/1948/12/02.htm
Yes, anybody with functional recall able to remember the BBC's output over the last decade and notice when the Nazis in Ukraine suddenly became the good guys.
Any reason why I should be happy that some terrorist group had made us all more like to die via Russian Nukes?
Can you take a moment to consider that the UK is openly supporting a Genocide which it feels no need to defend the victims. Indeed it's chief amongst the perperators with over 40% of all ITAR flights handled by the RAF from Cyprus. https://www.declassifieduk.org/u-s-special-ops-flights-to-israel-from-uks-cyprus-base-surge-under-starmer/ and https://www.declassifieduk.org/britain-sent-over-500-spy-flights-to-gaza/
Reconcile that with supporting Ukraine?
It's much easier to reconcile the support for Fascist Ukrainian Nationalists in occupied Kiev and Occupied Palestine. Literally the same ideology from the same people, backed by the US.
https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2023/07/15/707082/Ukraine-Nazism-Zionism-How-Deeply-Intertwined
Here's the BBC on "Neo-Nazi threat in new Ukraine: NEWSNIGHT" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY
Here what the Director of the Ukrainian Jewish Committee has to say in an article entitled "Meet the Lonely Ukrainian Jew Fighting His Country’s New Fondness for Nazis "
https://archive.ph/uQEZk#selection-873.0-911.356Eduard Dolinsky went online about a year and a half ago and saw an image that shook him to his core. A large crowd, some in Nazi uniforms, was parading in the Ukrainian city of L’viv to commemorate the establishment of a militia loyal to Hitler.
“Division Galicia - the heroes of Ukraine,” the marchers chanted as they walked.
As head of one of Ukraine’s leading Jewish advocacy groups, Dolinsky was livid at the idea of celebrating Nazi collaboration. For the same reason, he could try to do something about it.
“When the government, state and civil society start to promote these organizations as heroes and those who fought for Ukrainian independence and whitewash their participation in the Holocaust actively and aggressively, I decided that my obligation and duty was to speak out against this,” Dolinsky told The Forward. “This is a denial of basic moral sense.”
Heres the excellent Kit on "Meet Centuria, Ukraine’s Western-trained neo-Nazi army" https://thegrayzone.com/2024/04/07/centuria-ukraines-western-neo-nazi-army/
That's my bet.
The mixture of loooong text chunks and reflexive boiler plate points that way.
Option b is the sort of monomaniacal SEL who is completely convinced of their own moral authority.
In the former case you'd wonder who is behind the bot?
In the latter you might ask what made them this way?
If you cared. Which I don't.
Interestingly you're unable to refute a single thing, and are dedicated to proving yourself a credulous moron, who should remain silent.
This shite has been going on for a long time, and you might have the memory of a goldfish but I've been pointing the same stuff out for a long time now.
I can often refer to the last time this bullshit came up, it's been going on for a decade in Ukraine and 8 decades in Palestine.
It's all in the comment history, you can look up the references yourself.
Often idiots like you don't think, you repeat some talking point, and it's beneath me to rebut you al a carte;
Case in point
I was cited by El-Reg - here https://www.theregister.com/2021/06/25/containers_vs_vms_debate_result/
That comment attributed to me by El-Reg - here shows in the CMS as AC - see what the citing article calls my account.
Coming from a Unixy background, it seems scarcely credible,” commented a reader named Sed Gawk.
https://forums.theregister.com/forum/all/2021/06/21/containers_vs_vm_for_mon/#c_4279211
So when I said take a guess, it's hardly a coded message - you doubled down on your bigotry.
Whether it's true or not – and I personally think there was a lot more to the attacks than we know – the Russians will spin as a handful of Ukrainian terrorists.
Well, they drew attention away from dropping a bridge on a passenger train and killing a lot of civilians.
But everyone involved will have know the risks and gone along willingly, as is standard for covert ops on enemy territory.
Big assumption. Standard for covert ops would be to have as few people as possible knowing about the attacks. So truck drivers might have been told to simply pick up a load at point A and deliver it to point B, so the drivers might not have been aware of their load. But that raises a couple of possible inconsitencies, like how the roofs of the containers were opened, ie driver/crew involvement and claims that all involved had safely returned to Ukraine. There have been claims that a couple of drivers were killed by locals trying to stop the attacks, along with arrests.
Destroying these planes will reduce Russia's own ability to attack civilian targets in Ukraine and might even help bring the war to an end sooner.
If Russia was actually attacking civilian targets, they still can. A lot depends on how reliable claims are, ie 40 aircraft destroyed vs reality. Early videos showed maybe 10, but now the dust has settled, people are poring over open-source satellite images to do their own BDA. But most of the airfields were too far away from Ukraine to have been used in attacks on it. Even if they were, all it really does is slightly reduce Russia's ability to launch Kh-101 missiles, which it hasn't been using a lot of. If it did manage to destroy an A-50, that might be more significant because Russia doesn't have many AEW aircraft.
But rather than 'bringing the war to an end', it's probably just escalated it. It's rather embarrasing, and Russians are calling for retaliation. After Ukraine attacked a Russian early warning radar site, Russia changed their nuclear doctrine so that attacks on Russia's strategic faciliites invited a nuclear response. Ukraine's just attacked those again, removing possibly a good chunk of Russia's nuclear triad for very little strategic or tactical benefit other than PR. It has also given Russia the perfect excuse to withdraw completely from START and New-START treaties, especially if Russia can prove (or prove to itself) that we helped Ukraine.
It's also unclear how many of the aircraft were actually bombers. The Olenya airbase wasn't used to attack Ukraine, but does operate maritime surveillance versions of the Tu-95. Being able to blind Russia over the NATO Lake.. I mean Baltic might suit NATO, but does little for Ukraine and will probably just make Russia increase their readiness. Same with the failed attack on Ukrainka and Russian eyes on the Pacific. Plus of course there's the timing, coming the day before the supposed 'peace' talks in Instabul.. Especially the terrorist attacks on the Russian passenger train. So again Russia has the perfect excuse to say Ukraine isn't interested in peace, is a rogue state intent on escalating and prolonging the conflict. And of course one of Russia's conditions has been to demilitarise Ukraine so it no longer represents a threat.
And it's making no difference to the 'reality on the ground', where Ukraine is still steadily losing territory.
But by far the biggest problem is by hyping this 'spectacular' for all it's worth, it has just shown how vulnerable our own military and civilian airfield, or other facilities are to this kind of attack.. Especially as it isn't really that complicated to conduct. Hiding weapons in commercial vehicles is nothing new, ie PIRA used the same tactic to sneak a truck full of improvised mortars close to Number 10 and shell that.
Tu-160 PAK-DA
Well, let's start with the obviously wrong statement:
"But most of the airfields were too far away from Ukraine to have been used in attacks on it."
These were strategic bombers that were attacked - the TU-95 regularly pokes into US airspace of the Continental US. Quite obviously, these airfield were easily close enough to Ukraine for the Russians ti use them to carry out airstrikes.
The operation - still lots of speculation and lost of unknowns. The best data I have seen to date is that the launch containers were loaded onto an articulated trailer, then a tractor unit was booked to collect the trailer from point A and to take it point B. Basically, an apparently routine 'pick up - drop off' job for the truckers concerned.
The exact detail of how the Ukrainians tracked where the containers were, 'popped' the roof, and then guided the drones is still uncertain, but there have been consistent reports that the Ukrainians just used the Russian mobile 'phone network.
As for escalating the war - well, Putin ordered (or at least was aware of and thus approved) the use of Nuclear capable bombers to attack Ukraine. In doing so, he invited the Ukrainians to destroy those assets. If you use an asset to attack someone, they will, predictably, seek to destroy that asset.
"Especially the terrorist attacks on the Russian passenger train"
I was wondering how long we would have to wait before you made an allegation like this.
You are normally so keen to insist that anyone with a contrary viewpoint to yours provides evidence, so where is your evidence?
A bridge collapsed, and the Russians immediately claimed that it was Ukrainian terrorists, so predictable, you repeat that smear.
For those that missed the story:
https://www.lbc.co.uk/world-news/seven-dead-two-bridges-collapse-russia/
"Multiple trucks travelling over the bridge at the time fell onto the passenger train"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/videos/c861y3gx977o
"Footage from Reuters shows the aftermath after a road bridge came down in Bryansk, bringing several heavy trucks on to a moving passenger train"
So we have a bridge collapse when it was being crossed by "Several" or "multiple" heavy trucks.
This is a bridge quite close to Ukraine - a bridge that has likely been subjected to extensive heavy military traffic over the ~40 months of Putin's 3-day (sorry, I forget, you prefer us to call it the 10-day) SMO.
Given all the reports we had before the SMO started of poor maintenance and inspection of Infrastructure in Russia, and all the pictures we have seen of eg plumes of sewerage bursting forth in Russian cities due to poor maintenance, Occam's razor suggests that the reason that this happened is because the bridge was repeatedly over-stressed by military traffic, becoming progressively more distressed until it finally collapsed.
Given that we have pictures confirming that there were trucks on the bridge, my hypothesis has more evidence in its favour than your repeat of the Russian propaganda.
These were strategic bombers that were attacked - the TU-95 regularly pokes into US airspace of the Continental US. Quite obviously, these airfield were easily close enough to Ukraine for the Russians ti use them to carry out airstrikes.
You rather make my point for me. The Ukrainka airbase is rather a long way from Kiev, so more of a threat to US than Ukraine. Russia had been flying Tu-95s from Engels until that got more frequently attacked. Which is also part of any strategic/tactical significance given Russia had been primarily using those to launch Kh-101s, and Russia hasn't been using that many. It has plenty of alternatives, like the Kalibr which it's been launching fairly regularly from the safety of the Caspian Sea. It might have started using venerable old bomb trucks to drop glide bombs in a more traditional strategic bombing role, but that would assume Russia had pretty much complete air supremacy or the lumbering Bears would just get shot down.
The exact detail of how the Ukrainians tracked where the containers were, 'popped' the roof, and then guided the drones is still uncertain, but there have been consistent reports that the Ukrainians just used the Russian mobile 'phone network.
Tracking the trucks would be the easy bit. Controlling multiple FPV drones via the mobile phone network.. Not so easy, unless you're saying the 'orcs with shovels' are much further ahead with their 5G networks than most of the West is.
A bridge collapsed, and the Russians immediately claimed that it was Ukrainian terrorists, so predictable, you repeat that smear.
You're immediately claiming that the collapse was a result of poor maintenance, despite lack of any evidence, multiple bridges all spontaneously deciding to fail at the same time, and when trains were passing above/below. Plus it not being the first time sabotage groups have done this. Maybe Russia will decide to hit Ukraine's rail links into Poland, and it'll be a bit of an 'oops', if they just happen to hit one of the frequent VIP trains. Escalation can result in 'accidents' like that.
and all the pictures we have seen of eg plumes of sewerage bursting forth in Russian cities due to poor maintenance,
Ah, yes.. this one?
https://www.theregister.com/2024/10/28/moscow_sewage_plume/
That wasn't a sewer pipe, didn't explode and was actually a new gas pipeline being flushed? But also interesting the way you've managed to take one incident and managed to plularlise it. Or perhaps you have other reliable sources?
Occam's razor suggests that the reason that this happened is because the bridge was repeatedly over-stressed by military traffic, becoming progressively more distressed until it finally collapsed.
Sure, if you treat a single event in isolation. Otherwise, "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.” What are the odds of that being multiple bridges, all deciding to give into stress on the same day, I wonder? Especially the same weekend of Ukraine's 'Web' (of lies).
And while the Russians are making claims that the Ukrainians attacked a bridge that probably fell down due to lack of maintenance, the Ukrainians have just admitted to a strike on the Kerch Straits bridge, which from initial imagery appears to have damaged one of the bridge piers. And which resulted in no civilian casualties.
... the Ukrainians have just admitted to a strike on the Kerch Straits bridge, which from initial imagery appears to have damaged one of the bridge piers. And which resulted in no civilian casualties.
Ah, right. So they attacked one bridge, but absolutely, positively did not attack any others? Those were termites! But then Russia hasn't been using the Kerch bridge for much military traffic given it now has their 'land bridge' across to Crimea. And oddly enough, that brand new rail link also just happened to give in to 'stress' on the same day. The day before the supposed 'peace' talks.
And as usual, you don't offer any sources for your Kerch Bridge claim. I haven't looked for any, but a lot of the media's gone a bit quiet on the other bridge collapses, possibly because they know that deliberately attacking predominantly civilian infrastructure is, well, a war crime.
"as usual"? I can't be bothered to look through my posting history to see how many posts I have made that include a link to supporting evidence, but 'as usual' is clearly factually incorrect.
In this case, I assumed that you would have the competence to undertake an internet search yourself. Evidently not.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14775649/Ukraine-Putin-Kerch-bridge-Crimea-attack.html
https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-latest-kyiv-claims-underwater-strike-on-kerch-bridge-which-will-annoy-bejesus-out-of-putin-12541713
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cr58e9yr2ezt
https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1l29624/ukrainian_attack_on_crimean_bridges_pillars_with/?share_id=I7LtRzREkUtDCjthW-7nk&utm_content=1&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1
There are lots and lots more.
I suspect the media has gone quiet about the other bridge collapse because they see no reason reporting Russian propaganda that even the Russian's have stopped talking about, when the most likely cause of a bridge collapse is inadequate maintenance. Which is why there are plenty of accounts of bridge collapses all around the world going back many decades. Most of which on subsequent investigation were the result of inadequate maintenance,
"as usual"? I can't be bothered to look through my posting history to see how many posts I have made that include a link to supporting evidence, but 'as usual' is clearly factually incorrect.In this case, I assumed that you would have the competence to undertake an internet search yourself. Evidently not.
As usual, you really don't know how to debate constructively and just go straight for the ad-homs. You didn't need to look at your posting history, just the post where you made the claim that the Kerch Bridge had been attacked again. And you demonstrate your own incompetence with your snark-
And as usual, you don't offer any sources for your Kerch Bridge claim. I haven't looked for any
After that post, I did have a quick look and found various news reports suggesting that it was another unsucessful attack that only closed the bridge for a couple of hours.
Which is why there are plenty of accounts of bridge collapses all around the world going back many decades. Most of which on subsequent investigation were the result of inadequate maintenance,
Uh huh. So let me see if I've got this right. Ukraine admitted an unsuccessful attack against one bridge, but categorically denies the others? Even though those just happened to all happen at roughly the same time, and just happened to be on logistics routes that could support the expected Russian offensives in both the north and south of Ukraine. Obviously it was just a coinicidence.. And this is the same Ukraine that proudly boasted of having destroyed 40 aircraft, and yet the best evidence currently available suggests maybe only 15. So if Ukraine is lying about that, despite theoretically having FPV drone footage that would support their claim.. What else might they be lying about? The Ghost of Kiev? The Heroes of Snake Island? Lil'ol ladies knocking down drones with well-aimed jars of pickles? Or sabotage attacks on other bridges and rail links..
But that's how propaganda works, or fails. Eventually, people stop believing in it, if claims are too outrageous, or unsopported by actual evidence. The Bbc (and you) are yet to learn this lesson. Fail to do so, and trust & credibility is lost.
I really should have the good sense just to ignore you, but I'm on a tea-break.
"just the post where you made the claim that the Kerch Bridge had been attacked again"
My actual words were:
"the Ukrainians have just admitted to a strike on the Kerch Straits bridge".
Having taken a few minutes to check a variety of mainstream media sources that most people would consider to be trustworthy, I verified before posting that the Ukrainians had indeed made that claim. My statement was therefore factually correct - the Ukrainians had indeed claimed to have attacked the bridge.
I will apologise for my poor phrasing - on reflection 'admitted' should perhaps have been replaced by 'claimed'. Nevertheless, my statement was fundamentally correct.
Also, I am impressed by your engineering ability that you can assess the attack to have been unsuccessful.
Given that the claim is that 1,100kg of explosives were detonated sub-surface, possibly in direct contact with the bridge pier and or sea-bed, I cannot reliably assess how badly damaged the bridge pier or sub-surface piled foundations are, but I wouldn't want to trust my life to them still being in a serviceable condition. After all, we have just been discussing what can happen to a loaded bridge that is in a distressed condition (and shattering the piles under a bridge pier - which is likely the result if the claim of 1,100kg detonated on the seabed is true - will most definitely leave that bridge in a distressed condition).
Moreover, I repeat the observation that you are very quick to demand absolute proof of any view contrary to your own, but seem very reluctant to ever offer evidence to support you own claims. If the Russian bridge collapsed as you and the Russian Aggressor State claim, where are the pictures of the rubble, showing the concrete columns with burn marks from the explosive detonation? Or neat drill holes where the charges were inserted into the structure? Where is any physical evidence to support your claim?
I at least had the good sense to claim failure due to repeated overstress and lack of maintenance was a hypothesis, and that what little evidence we did have (the presence of trucks on the bridge at the time of collapse) supported that hypothesis. As and when additional information comes to light, I shall review that information, and revise my opinion as appropriate, just as I shall not trust claims of only 15 or of 40 aircraft destroyed until more evidence becomes available in the public realm.
My statement was therefore factually correct - the Ukrainians had indeed claimed to have attacked the bridge.
As was mine. You didn't provide any evidence to support your claim, despite now saying you'd found some. Why didn't you just copy & paste one of those links? It's not difficult..
Also, I am impressed by your engineering ability that you can assess the attack to have been unsuccessful.
Well, my normal morning routine is to grab a coffee and do a quick news round. At the time, the Bbc hadn't picked up the story, so your comment was the first I'd seen of another attack on a bridge. Since then, we have this-
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cr58e9yr2ezt
Traffic has resumed across Crimea's Kerch Bridge, hours after Ukraine said it struck the bridge with underwater explosives
It didn't caveat the report with 'traffic resumed to Russian stunt drivers willing to jump the gap'.
After all, we have just been discussing what can happen to a loaded bridge that is in a distressed condition (and shattering the piles under a bridge pier - which is likely the result if the claim of 1,100kg detonated on the seabed is true - will most definitely leave that bridge in a distressed condition).
I didn't realise I was 'debating' with a C.Eng and expert in underwater demolitions (bring back Lewis) who can confidentlly predict the simulataneous and spontaneous failure of the other bridges, but has failed to notice that the Kerch bridge was still standing and had been re-opened to traffic. But I'm also curious about your definite detection of stress. And I'm very curious what an expert such as yourself would make of the images shown in the Bbc's 15:18 "Explosion happened on eastern side of road bridge" post.
That looks to me like it shows the booms Russia had installed to err.. prevent booms after the previous attacks on this bridge. Or to get a little more technical, the additional protection Russia installed around the piers in the shipping channels left open to allow shipping. Then perhaps you could educate me about a thing called 'hydraulic tamping', and how installing barriers around the support piers might, well, you know, deflect an underwater explosion away from the thing it's meant to protect.. And the reason why Russia's actual civil and military engineers decided to install those to foil Ukraines efforts to finally get rid of the stamps it printed showing a destroyed Kerch Bridge?
Then maybe you could explain why bigger isn't always better, and why "Ukraine’s Security Service, the SBU, talks about 1,100kg of the equivalent of TNT being used against the bridge." can just create a big splash and not much damage.. Ukraine might have got a 'King of Drones', but didn't exactly achieve a grand slam.
>sigh< I know I should just ignore you but...
Again the 'you didn't provide evidence' whine, when you continue to not provide evidence.
"I didn't realise I was 'debating' with a C.Eng and expert in underwater demolitions"
You're not.
I am an expert geotechnical engineer (I realise that that statement is terribly unBritish of me, and comes very close to boasting, but in this case it seems probably justifiable).
So I will just repeat the thing I said, not what you want to pretend I said:
"shattering the piles under a bridge pier - which is likely the result if the claim of 1,100kg detonated on the seabed is true - will most definitely leave that bridge in a distressed condition"
If the 1100kg of explosive detonated on the seabed, it would have sent a compressive shockwave onto the seabed. The shock wave would be partially reflected whenever it meets a boundary surface between two different materiel, creating high tensile forces in the process, unless they have identical material properties, so the near certain occurrence is that any concrete structure in the seabed will have been shattered by that shock wave (concrete really, really doesn't like tension - yes, Reinforced concrete - the steel bars carry the tension load - so if the pile is RC, the concrete will still be shattered)
Foundation piles are not necessarily concrete, and I do not, off-hand, know what type of piles were used, but concrete is a reasonable possibility (they might be hollow steel tubes, or concrete filled steel tubes - as I say, there are possibilities).
If the pile is shattered, but is only subject to pure compression loading (reasonably likely, but not certain - there may be wind uplift or seismic action for example) then the pile becomes affectively a column of unbound rock once it's shattered, so is not likely to instantaneously fail. It likely will, however, gradually compress, as the broken bits of concrete are squeezed out into the surrounding seabed by the weight of the bridge acting upon it. Obviously, if material is squeezed out sideways, the overall pile must get shorter (since there is no change in the volume of the material of the pile).
If that happens, the pile cap will, obviously, then move downwards, meaning the bridge pier which sits on the pile cap moves downwards, leading to progressive differential settlement that most certainly will tear the bridge apart. But it will not be instantaneous.
Of course, you may be right. Maybe the 1100kg wasn't real. Maybe it wasn't in contact with the bridge or the sea bed. Maybe the foundation hasn't been shattered.
But until there is some more, definite, data on the condition of the sub-surface (underwater and underground) structure of that bridge, I would not declare that the attack was unsuccessful.
The bridge may be absolutely fine. Equally, the bridge may be fatally wounded.
If the 1100kg of explosive detonated on the seabed, it would have sent a compressive shockwave onto the seabed.
See, this is why I doubt your claims of knowledge or experience. Keyword being if. But even then, unless it was a shaped charge, the shockwave would spread equally and in all directions from the point of detonation. This is something that's been understood pretty much since we invented explosives, and certainly since we've invented torpedos. Use impact fuzes and most of the energy is lost away from the target's hull, so just use a lot of it, detonate it under the hull and use the bubble & shockwaves to break the ship's back.
(Again this is why it's a shame there's no Lewis)
So only some unknown percentage of the explosive effect would be directed into the bridge structure. Which is pretty much a physics and geometry problem based on that starting out as a sphere. Where that sphere intersects <something>, then there will be an energy transfer, again governned by physics. The geology is pretty well understood, especially in modern times when an infamous Austrian house painter first considered building a bridge across the strait. Especially when if you bothered to do some very basic research-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerch_Strait
Because of frequent earth tremors, this bridge would have required vast quantities of extra-strength steel girders, and their transport would have curtailed shipments of military material to the Crimea.
Ah, history. But geology rarely stops and any bridge design would have needed to resist damage from quakes or explosions. Both shockwave challenges, although obviously a bit different in intensity.
If that happens, the pile cap will, obviously, then move downwards, meaning the bridge pier which sits on the pile cap moves downwards, leading to progressive differential settlement that most certainly will tear the bridge apart. But it will not be instantaneous. But that research might also give you some more clues like Maeotic Swamp for what the sea bed might be, and the probability of shockwaves being transferred from 'sea bed' into bridge structure rather than just being absorbed by and moving some mud & water.
And then there's still the small matter of the structures added by Russia around the bridge piers precisely to reduce the risk of this kind of attack given Ukraine seems very determined to waste resources on trying to blow it up. Some of their miltary engineers might have been better served doing a tour of Europe's battlefields. It's easy to find examples from WW2 (and later) where we used a LOT more explosives trying to destroy things like Ukraine's WW2 allys U-Boat pens etc etc. It's not easy.
Of course, you may be right. Maybe the 1100kg wasn't real. Maybe it wasn't in contact with the bridge or the sea bed. Maybe the foundation hasn't been shattered.
Maybe it obviously hasn't been shattered on account to the bridge being conspicously upright. Maybe Russia sent down some divers to have a look for any obvious damage. Maybe Russia did something extremely common and installed strain gauges and sensors on rebar inside concrete, or in other vulnerable areas.
Maybe it's still just a coincidence that Ukraine decided to attack this bridge, but categorically deny any involvement in the other bridge attacks.. Or maybe they're just lying, and you're falling for those lies..
"See, this is why I doubt your claims of knowledge or experience. Keyword being if."
So you consider someone that qualifies their statement as lacking knowledge and experience? That's one option, I suppose.
As it happened, I did do some further research too (for my own interest):
https://www.newcivilengineer.com/archive/bridge-brilliance-connecting-crimea-10-08-2016/
I know you like to cast doubt on references other people use - NCE is effectively the 'trade journal' of the Institution of Civil Engineers, so probably a tad more reliable than wiki.
Yes, the bridge was designed to resist earthquakes. There is a difference between an earthquake and 1 tonne TNT -equivalent detonating in close proximity to a structural member.
Inclined piles provide earthquake resistance.
The main structural piles are vertical and very long, passing through a very weak stratum before they reach the bearing stratum. Some of them are 400mm square RC - 400mm is pretty skinny for a pile.
"It's easy to find examples from WW2 (and later) where we used a LOT more explosives trying to destroy thing"
- would that include the Upkeep bombs? Where a simple high explosive charge was detonated underwater, and the resulting shockwave cracked the reinforced concrete structure it was adjacent to?
"Maybe Russia did something extremely common and installed strain gauges and sensors on rebar inside concrete"
Maybe, but it really isn't all that common, even in the UK, and we are one of the leaders in deploying that sort of technology (there is a specialist group at Cambridge University - the centre for smart infrastructure - that's been driving its uptake ). One of my former colleagues was involved in sticking fibre optic wires on the reinforcement cages for the Crossrail shafts - that wasn't that long ago, and was still viewed as 'research' rather than 'routine construction'.
And as you know, because you did your research, there are 5,500 piles on that bridge - that's a lot of strain gauges to install on a bridge - in tricky to access conditions - that was built in a hurry.
"Maybe it obviously hasn't been shattered on account to the bridge being conspicously upright"
Indeed it is still conspicuously upright - but than I did say that if the piles have shattered, instantaneous failure is unlikely. So your use of the word 'obviously' in that statement is clearly incorrect. The piles are under the ground, and there is currently nothing obvious about their condition.
And I also said that the bridge may be fine, or may be stuffed.
You are the one making absolute claims that the attack was ineffective, I'm the one that is saying we don't have all the data, it might be worse than it looks, let's wait and see.
So you consider someone that qualifies their statement as lacking knowledge and experience? That's one option, I suppose.
Ok, I'll accept that you're an expert at digging yourself into holes.. Oh, and the installation and relocation of goalposts.
Yes, the bridge was designed to resist earthquakes. There is a difference between an earthquake and 1 tonne TNT -equivalent detonating in close proximity to a structural member.
Yep. Earthquakes can involve a LOT more energy transfer. There's also a difference between types of explosives, which is splitting hairs a bit but relevant to shockwave creation and transfer So torpex > TNT. I'll get back to 'close proximity' in a mo, because horseshoes and hand grenades and all that..
The main structural piles are vertical and very long, passing through a very weak stratum before they reach the bearing stratum. Some of them are 400mm square RC - 400mm is pretty skinny for a pile.. And as you know, because you did your research, there are 5,500 piles on that bridge
Nope, didn't really need to bother looking that deeply. But now you're down to the bearing stratum.. So if you have a 'very weak stratum', like the thick mud at the bottom of the strait.. and given your extensive knowledge of the way seismic waves travel through hard rock vs loose soil, do you think energy would propagate easily through that mud into into any main structural pile? Or might it just move mud and water? Which you could see in the video of the explosion..
And if there are 5,500 piles, do you think (rhetorical question) Russia's civl engineers might have factored in some redundancy so that the bridge could lose a few and still remain in the upright position it's in today? Especially when the bridge was designed and constructed after 2014 and Ukraine had already started threatening Crimea, and it being a bit of a status symbol. Plus Soviet-era construction being rather overengineered, or just Russian civil engineers not wanting to fall out of windows if the bridge collapsed after the first (or third, maybe fourth) tap.
Then there are other principles you either haven't noticed, or thought about in your frantic shovelliing. Cope cages. Ok, so they're more about disrupting jet formation and penetration than shock transfer, but all part of armor design. Slap a HESH warhead against a solid layer of armor, energy transfers and creates spalling on the inside. Create a void, or something energy absorbing between outside and inside, and energy is dissipated. Much the same if your tank is filled with water, it being rather hard to compress. Have a sealed tank and shockwave transfers through the water and to the container. Have an open container.. and the water will just slosh out from an opening, losing a lot of the energy transfer in the process.
So now suppose you do what images and videos showed Russia doing after the first attempt at the bridge. You've got deep, thick mud dispersing shockwaves from water to bed of the strait where the piles are connected. Then make a sandwich. So a layer of gabions with loose rock. Then a layer of maybe those nice big construction foam blocks that are, err.. used in bridge construction and foundations. Then maybe for good measure, another layer of gabions, and a gap between those and the bridge pier or piles. So lots of cheap, easy to install stuff that absorbs and dissipates any shocks generated by a passing bomb, and prevents those being transferred to the important bits.
Which you can see happening when there's a big fountain of water & mud when the bomb went off..
You are the one making absolute claims that the attack was ineffective,
It took months of planning, a bunch of explosives and it closed the bridge for a couple of hours. But it's not like Ukraine is really paying for anything, or has more useful things to try and blow up. And yep, you may be right and maybe in a few months time, it may suddenly decide it's suffered enough. But you're stll ignoring the more important point. What are the odds of 4 bridges failing in high value locations over a couple of days? Or do you really think that was an extremely unlikely coincidence?
On at least one video a truck is shown to explode in a manner leaving no possibility for the driver to survive
Care to provide a link?
BBC: "One lorry driver interviewed by Russian state outlet Ria Novosti said he and other drivers tried to knock down drones flying out of a lorry with rocks." Doesn't sound like they were hurt at all, just pissed off. Probably very reluctant to deliver near military bases now, yet another good outcome.
I'm sorry but the Bullshit Broadcasting Corp has lost all credibility
Says the person who just linked to an article on Press TV...
The Iranian state broadcaster who "interviewed" someone after protests in Iran about how he was encouraged to do it by the evil CIA and didn't mention that there were conducting said interview from inside the prison in which he was being tortured to give that confession. That was the start of the process that lost them their broadcasting license, because Ofcom were investigating and discovered that their independent UK arm were in fact edited in Tehran and so in breach of their broadcasting license.
GNU SedGawk,
Interestingly you have zero ability to dispute literally anything the Scottish Professor has to say.
I didn't even try. I was making, an admittedly cheap shot, at your attack on the BBC as a source. It's got its faults. But I'd broadly trust it to at least be trying to tell the truth, as its employees see it. The Beeb is part of the establishment, but not directly controlled by the government. Press TV are a propaganda arm of the Iranian government - not an independent news organisation. Not even partially independent. I gave the example of why they lost their UK license, because it was relevant. They were part of the process of torturing an Iranian civilian who'd done nothing but protest against what he saw as election rigging. Not only did they cooperate in that process, they didn't tell their viewers that the guy had been tortured, or even that they'd filmed him in a prison notorious in the country for being where people are tortured. It was clearly a staged confession, and the people filiming it knew it. Whether the "journalists" in London did, is another question.
I don't actually care about the article you published. It's from David Miller, who got sacked from Bristol uni for being a racist. But even there, I only know that because I decided to answer your post and so had to look it up. Ukraine has got some Nazis in it. So has Russia (so has everywhere). Ukraine was invaded. Ukraine has the right to defend itself. Ukraine is defending itself. Therefore I ignored that PressTV piece as irrelevant, but noted the irony as you had a go at the poor old Beeb.
The point here is that you can't have it both ways. Either the Beeb is bad because it's government controlled - but in that case, so is Press TV. But Press TV agrees with your view, so it must be good. The BBC are actually independent of government, with limitations, Press TV aren't. If you can't see the difference, you've got a problem - and you'll keep getting stuff like this wrong.
The whole "Ukrainians are Nazis" thing is transparent Russia propaganda. I couldn't be bothered to have that argument, and I still can't. I've not seen good evidence for it, and suggesting that Ukrainian Nazis might also be Zionists seems like conspiracy theory bingo, rather than a sensible argument. Russia doesn't have a right to invade Ukraine and kill tens of thousands of civillians - and that's the important question. If Russia were just liberating Ukraine from a nazi government, they wouldn't be annexing Ukrainian territory and demanding it be ceded to them in peace talks either.
So IRAN bad - more rancid racist bile from a Ukrainian Nazi supporter - colour me surprised.
Iran not bad. Iranian government: Very fucking bad. Also, Russia not bad. Russian government: Very fucking bad. You're the one quoting a guy sacked for being an anit-semite - and talking about conspiracies with jews and zionism - and yet you call me racist?
You're clearly passionate about this, and almost everyone here is arguing against you, so I can understand you being pissed off. But perhaps tone the argument down a notch?
Almost nobody on this discussion believes that Ukraine is run by Nazis. Almost everyone on this discussion believes that Russia is committing war crimes on a massive scale. Hence you'll not find much sympathy with your arguments.
I was making, an admittedly cheap shot, at your attack on the BBC as a source. It's got its faults. But I'd broadly trust it to at least be trying to tell the truth, as its employees see it. The Beeb is part of the establishment, but not directly controlled by the government. ...... I aint Spartacus
There’s more than just a growing suspicion, I aint Spartacus, that the BBC is indirectly controlled by vested foreign interests concerned about and covetous of its global reach permitting it to try to alter one’s perception of present and future real-time events via the medium of its reportage following and supporting and providing official rather than accurate narratives ...... tall soft porn tales rather than hard core facts.
Parroting racist lies without foundation.
Firstly Iran is not funding Nazis in Ukraine or involved in a Genocide, unlike the UK. You are utterly deluded as to the function of the BBC it's absolutely a propaganda outlet. You simplistic attempt to equate media is laughable, deserves no response.
PressTV is an Iranian TV station, and you've provided zero evidence other than Iran Bad that they are reporting with an pro-government flavour historical arguments by A Scottish Professor, who was indeed hounded out of Bristol University. He was fired for protected Anti-Zionist Beliefs, that enslaving Palestinians to steal their stuff is inherently a racist idealogical premise.
He won at Tribunal establishing this as protected Belief. He wasn't fired for being Racist, quite the reverse he was hounded out by an organised campaign of Zionist State Terror group aligned student Zionist terror affiliate supporter org Union of Jewish Students an officially Zionist organisation.
"In February the tribunal ruled that Prof David Miller was unfairly discriminated against when he was dismissed by the University of Bristol over allegations of making antisemitic remarks"
Look how mealy mouth the admission is reported in the Guardian
The belief that Israel’s actions amount to apartheid, ethnic cleansing and genocide are “worthy of respect in a democratic society”, an employment tribunal has concluded in a landmark decision.
The tribunal has now published its 120-page judgment setting out why Miller’s beliefs warranted protection under antidiscrimination laws.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2024/oct/14/anti-zionist-beliefs-worthy-respect-uk-tribunal-finds-israel
Try
https://wonkhe.com/blogs/david-miller-wins-tribunal-case-against-the-university-of-bristol/n employment tribunal has ruled that a sociology professor who was dismissed by the University of Bristol was unfairly and wrongfully dismissed.
Notably, it found that David Miler’s “anti-Zionist” beliefs qualified as a “philosophical belief and a protected characteristic” under the Equality Act 2010.
And it found that Miller was subject to “direct discrimination” from the university over its decision to sack him – and to reject a subsequent appeal from him against that decision.
Escalation
David Miller was a professor of Political Sociology, employed by the University of Bristol in 2018. He claimed that for a significant chunk of his time at the university, he was targeted by a concerted effort from groups and individuals opposed to his anti-Zionist views.
That campaign, he argued, was not only aimed at ousting him from his position – but was also met with a lack of support and investigation from his employer. That situation escalated to a point where he faced what he described as discriminatory and unfair misconduct proceedings – leading to his dismissal.
That complaint was anchored in an argument that his anti-Zionist stance constituted a protected philosophical belief under the Equality Act 2010, alleging discrimination on these grounds. In response, the university firmly denied – asserting that Miller’s termination was a direct result of gross misconduct linked to specific statements and comments made in February 2021. It also challenged the notion that his expressed beliefs merited protection under the Equality Act.
His beliefs as summarised in the case are worth examining. His view is that Zionism – defined as the ideology advocating for a Jewish state in the territory of the former British Mandate of Palestine – is inherently racist, imperialist, and colonial, and thus offensive to human dignity.
Again the attempt to suggest "Iran" or "Russian" is a guide to credibility not "True" or "Untrue". Ukraine has a Nazi problem which is well documented.
The US/NATO are well documented as supporting Nazis, fascist movements all over the planet. https://asawinstanley.substack.com/p/natos-secret-nazi-armies
Since you like BBC - here is some of the Timewatch documentry about NATO NAZI armies https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6J1OzLHamQ9J3RY1ZIt1fKwL6hgsu__o
Nazism and Zionism are essentially the same fascist idealogical currents swirling around German Romantic Nationalist literary circles. You can read more about his https://www.ebb-magazine.com/books/p/on-zionist-literature it's slimmest of the many books I have on Palestine, and it's possibly the most profound, I recommend highly, it will give you some insight.
It's a fact that Ukrainians are the idealogical pioneers of Zionism, contributing both Ideologically and materially to the Zionist State Terror group's occupation of Palestine.
Ukrainian and Russian form a significant component of the members of US Backed Zionist State Terrorist group, leading to a flaring up inside the entity.
https://www.jpost.com/international/internationalrussia-ukraine-war/article-748443The conflict between Ukraine and Russia has been ongoing since 2014, with a serious intensification after the 2022 invasion. In addition to the tens of thousands of civilian and military casualties, a less obvious victim of the conflict is the cohesion of Israel’s Russian-speaking community. The community has split along political lines between those loyal to Putin and supporters of Ukraine.
Ukraine has a Nazi Regime - that's backed by the West. The average Ukrainian isn't a Nazi, they are occupied by a fascist government propped up by the EU/UK axis.
https://thegrayzone.com/2022/03/04/nazis-ukrainian-war-russia/ That fascist government have lots of Nazi collaborator monuments https://forward.com/news/462916/nazi-collaborator-monuments-in-ukraine/
where the guardian featured adoring photographs shot by a well known Nazi.
1 Publish on the Nazi Brigades Telegram - https://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2022/may/11/inside-the-azovstal-steelworks-in-pictures
2 Galleries not keen on Nazis -
Ukrainian Photographer’s Show Canceled Over Neo-Nazism Accusations
Dmytro “Orest” Kozatsky, a member of the Azov Battalion, said his social media posts depicting hate symbols were “taken out of context.”
https://hyperallergic.com/781937/ukrainian-photographers-show-canceled-over-neo-nazism-accusations/
To be clear it's the same white washed Nazi
Dmytro Kozatsky, Azov Regiment fighter and photographer, documented the siege of the Azovstal metalworks. Before his capture he posted his pictures on
https://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2022/may/23/inside-the-battle-for-the-azovstal-metalworks
Nazis in Ukraine are a thing. Director of the Ukrainian Jewish Committee, Eduard Dolinsky, https://www.linkedin.com/in/eduard-dolinsky-6ab54847
KIEV, June 1. /TASS/. The veneration of WWII-era Nazi organizations and surging anti-Semitism in Ukraine will inevitably affect relations with Israel, Director of the Ukrainian Jewish Committee, Eduard Dolinsky, told golos.ua edition on Friday.https://tass.com/society/1007559Currently, both countries enjoy a good relationship, he said. However, Ukraine’s glorification of the murderers of the Jewish population will eventually come back to haunt Kiev in its relations with Israel. This will happen shortly, Dolinsky believes.
He's quoted in Miller's article but why would a Ukrainian Jew be worried about Nazis in Ukraine.
US backed Zionist State Terrorist group's genocide in occupied Palestine is a televised livestreamed holocaust.
Ukraine is a minor armed conflict between two State parties, it's minor in that it's largely confined to the Eastern Border Regions as it's essentially a Civil war resulting from the 2014 coup, one side of the civil war has joined the Russian Federation for protection from Ukrainian fascist nationalists intent on exterminating anybody other than "Racially Pure Ukrainians". It's not a Genocide, and prosecuting Nazis are considered to be a good thing. I fully support the prosecution, conviction, and punishment of Nazis up and including capital punishment.
There was a US backed Coup in 2014 backed by CIA front group NED as covered by the Greyzone https://thegrayzone.com/2024/04/07/centuria-ukraines-western-neo-nazi-army/
This is Ukrainians vs Ukrainians - they've been fighting since 2014 - The Eastern Ukrainians are the real Ukraine, not the pretenders from the Austro-Hungarian Empire who spit on their heritage and dishonour their fallen.
Ukraine's Nazis are not the good guys, they like the US backed Zionist State Terror group are criminal scum who must be brought to justice, and their racist idealogical underpinnings brought into the light and disinfected. Racial supremacist leading to violent extremism is not tolerable, nor is it going to be allowed to exist, it like Zionism will be eliminated.
In another ominous development, Ukraine has in recent years erected a glut of statues honoring Ukrainian nationalists whose legacies are tainted by their indisputable record as Nazi proxies. The Forward newspaper cataloged some of these deplorables, including Stepan Bandera, leader of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN), whose followers acted as local militia members for the SS and German army. “Ukraine has several dozen monuments and scores of street names glorifying this Nazi collaborator, enough to require two separate Wikipedia pages,” the Forward wrote.
Another frequent honoree is Roman Shukhevych, revered as a Ukrainian freedom fighter but also the leader of a feared Nazi auxiliary police unit that the Forward notes was “responsible for butchering thousands of Jews and … Poles.” Statues have also been raised for Yaroslav Stetsko, a one-time chair of the OUN, who wrote “I insist on the extermination of the Jews in Ukraine.”
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/ukraine-has-nazi-problem-vladimir-putin-s-denazification-claim-war-ncna1290946
Firstly Iran is not funding Nazis in Ukraine or involved in a Genocide
Wrong. Iran funds, and explictly supports, Hamas. The Hamas charter calls for the removal of all jews from the state of Israel. Not, note, the ending of the state of Isreal, but the removing of all jews from it. Hence genocide. Literally by definition. Iran funds and supports genocide. Completely openly and publicly.
You should try to look at the world more realistically. From your posts in this thread your worldview appears to be socialist, anti-US, anti-Israel (maybe anti-Zionist), anti-Ukraine. However, even if I they are all straight up the bad guys, that doesn't make Iran and Russia the good guys. My enemy's enemy may also be a total bastard. Putin is an ultra-nationalist, crony capitalist war-monger - he should be everthing you claim to oppose. You accuse other people here of being brain-dead swallowers of propaganda.
Even if Israel's attack on Gaza is now genocidal, and it's getting dangerously close, Hamas are openly and publicly an organisation that are pro-genocide. It's literally in their founding charter. Similarly Putin's attack on Ukraine has involved the kidnapping and forced re-education (and sometimes forced adoption) of Ukrainian children, the destruction of Ukrainian language and culture in occupied territories, forced school education in Russian (with threats of forced adoption for those parents that stopped sending their kids to the schools) and the organised murder of community leaders (in places like Irpin and Bucha). All of those things meet the UN definition of genocide.
I don't believe your claims that Ukraine is run by nazis. I don't live there, and don't speak the language - but there just doesn't seem to be good evidence for it. All of post-Communist Eastern Europe and Russia have a nazism problem. Russia has the wonderfully ironically named Liberal Democractic Party, for example. Or the Wagner Group - named for their military commander's (and Hitler's) favourite composer. Dmitry Utkin, according to supporters wasn't a nazi, his SS and death's head tattoos were simply because he was, "a fan of the nazi aesthetic". Maybe Putin's famous anti-nazi credentials were why he had his plane shot down? Doesn't really explain the 20 years of government contracts up to that point mind? That doesn't mean we should invade Russia to "de-nazify" it though.
The dam is breaking, You are a bigot blaming Iran for the same crime you blame Russia, being too big to easily threaten, claiming you "Good Guys, Bad Guys" you mean White guys.. and Western Vassal guys.
The world is a wonderful place, what is true is that US backed Zionist State Terrorist group like Bandera's foul idealogical fingerprints in Ukraine, are fundamentally opposed to the values of the population of the UK/EU/US hence the epic bullshit sprayed at us doesn't survive contact with reality.
The removal of US Backed Zionist State Terrorist group from occupied Palestine is a wonderful and laudable goal, replacing it with the democratic state of Palestine free from River to Sea, with Zionist State Terrorists surrendered to ICC.
US backed Zionist State Terrorist groups illegal occupation of Palestine is a crime against humanity. Iran is completely correct to decry the regime of racial supremacy and direct funds towards supporting expressions of national self-determination and armed liberation struggles in Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Yemen. Indeed Iran is doing in reality what the UK/EU/US Nazi supporters claim for Ukraine.
There is a no legitimate right for a Ukrainian and Polish Terrorist group to enslave Palestinians and subjugate them in perpetuity. US Backed Zionist State Terrorist group ICC Fugitive Polish Genocide Perpetrator Ben "Bibi" Milekowski are murdering children, running a mass rape operation.
“More than a human can bear”: Israel's systematic use of sexual, reproductive and other forms of gender-based violence since October 2023https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2025/03/more-human-can-bear-israels-systematic-use-sexual-reproductive-and-other
Occupied Palestine has the right and obligation to prevent Genocide,
The Israeli regime enacts in all the territory it controls (Israeli sovereign territory, East Jerusalem, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip) an apartheid regime. One organizing principle lies at the base of a wide array of Israeli policies: advancing and perpetuating the supremacy of one group – Jews – over another – Palestinians. B’Tselem rejects the perception of Israel as a democracy (inside the Green Line) that simultaneously upholds a temporary military occupation (beyond it). B’Tselem reached the conclusion that the bar for defining the Israeli regime as an apartheid regime has been met after considering the accumulation of policies and laws that Israel devised to entrench its control over Palestinians
https://www.btselem.org/topic/apartheid
Currently a racist regime has imposed apartheid on the survivors of a genocide aimed at eradicating the thousands of years of Palestinian presence in Palestine.
The answer is that it's the Zionist settler colonial Apartheid regime which occupied Palestine that is attacking the Palestinian Civilian population to perpetrate Genocide
Dropping 2 ton bombs on a population of two million people where over 50% are below the age of 18, that is the Zionist State Terrorist group.
Attacking Funerals of the people murdered by Zionist State Terrorists, that is the colonizers of Occupied Palestine.
The disgusting attempt to frame resistance to being murdered as somehow illegitimate demonstrates how effectively you've dehumanized the Palestinian People.
Let me quote you the words of Polish Atheist Zionist Terrorist Ben-Gurion.
"We have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? Who would accept that?" - David Ben-Gurion, The Jewish Paradox : A personal memoir (1978) by Nahum Goldmann (translated by Steve Cox), p. 99.
Or more explicitly
Ben-Gurion also clearly stated that it was the Zionists who were the aggressors, at least from the political point of view. He stated in the contexts of the First Palestinian Intifada in 1938, :
"When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves ---- that is only half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves. . . . But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict, which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves." (Righteous Victims, p. 652)
Occupied Palestine has Palestinians who own 93% of Palestine with clear title. 7% of Palestine was acquired by the Zionist movement. Interestingly the US backed Zionist State Terrorist group's human shields around the terror training camps and infrastructure of oppression are concentrated in 7% of the land still. It happens to be a different 7% than they hold legal title for.
So the 93% of Palestine returns to owners, the Polish ICC Fugative Ben "Bibi" Milekowksy is surrendered to complete his imprisonment in his indigenous ancestral homeland of Poland.
The remained of US Backed Zionist State Terrorist group should be afford the opportunity to account for the crimes against humanity perpetrated while part of US Backed Zionist State Terrorist group paedophilic[1] rape[2] cult, then offered a (not unreasonably overcast) wall, a blindfold ( with at least some thread around the bare) and a fake cigarette - ('elf n safety). Prior to removal to ancestral burial grounds in Europe. I'm not saying shoot em, I don't give a fuck how the genocidal cunts are held accountable provided it's done publicly, in court, with a full record of the evil they've perpetrated acknowledged.
[1] https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-741881
[2] https://www.un.org/unispal/document/report-of-commisison-of-inquiry-opt-13march2025/
Putin objectively give more of a fuck about the Russians than the UK government care about us. The US government is literally against a right to food, and arrests people for Miscarriage.
I don't have to agree with him on every issue to understand Nazis are bad. The BBC showed us them, look for yourself -They called the report "Neo-Nazi threat in new Ukraine: NEWSNIGHT" You know the Russian Outlet in London with RP (Ruski Pronuns) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY
Did MadVlad the VeryBad get a job at BBC Newsnight? They interview https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector
I've cited the media in the UK/US/Israel over a good range of years all who are aware of Ukrainian Nazis.
Back in April 2024, the commander of the Azov brigade Denis "Redis" Prokopenko called for the brigade to be excluded from the United States defence appropriations bill, the so-called blacklists, because it does not allow the brigade to be provided with Western weapons.
Prokopenko noted that since 2017, a number of American laws on consolidated appropriations of the United States contain an amendment that prohibits any assistance, including weapons, to Azov. This amendment was explained by the fact that Azov is "blatantly neo-Nazi" and "fascist".
This amendment was later cancelled, but the ban on the transfer of weapons to the brigade was established by the Lihi law.
Ukrainian Media [ https://visitukraine.today/blog/4106/the-azov-brigade-can-now-use-us-weapons-why-there-was-a-ban-and-what-it-is-related-to
How did the BBC became a Russian Source ? [ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30655184 / https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY ]
How did he US State Department became a Russian Source? [ https://thehill.com/policy/defense/380483-congress-bans-arms-to-controversial-ukrainian-militia-linked-to-neo-nazis/ ]
How did the Jerusalem Post became a Russian Source? [ https://www.jpost.com/international/article-704680 ]
Israeli Independent Media [ https://www.972mag.com/israel-arms-exports-neo-nazis-ukraine/ ]
US Independent Media [ https://thegrayzone.com/2022/03/04/nazis-ukrainian-war-russia/ ]
UN Security Council meetings on Nazis in Ukraine [ https://webtv.un.org/en/asset/k1y/k1yvq6tnza ]
BBC: "One lorry driver interviewed by Russian state outlet Ria Novosti said he and other drivers tried to knock down drones flying out of a lorry with rocks." Doesn't sound like they were hurt at all, just pissed off. Probably very reluctant to deliver near military bases now, yet another good outcome.
The Bbc isn't exactly a very reliable source and has happily regurgitating whatever the SBU tells them. But figuring out any truth from propaganda is always the challenge, especially when outfits like 'Moscow Times' are cited as reliable sources. There's also been a flood of speculation or outright misinformation with old videos and images claiming to be from these attacks. It'll take a while to sift out the truth, and even then it will probably need several sacks of salt.
One of which is how much driver/crew involvement was necessary. There are claims that the roofs were opened automatically and remotely. There are videos showing drones launching from the containers showing what might be roof panels on the ground nearby. So they might have been manually removed, or yeeted off by bungee cords and solenoid releases. But forensics will figure out how it was done.
As for exploding trucks, the one destined for Ukrainka seemed to have exploded on the way and was shown burning on the roadside. Whether the driver escaped, who knows? Whether they were intended to escape? Again, who knows? But again that's one of the inconsistencies in the story. Ukraine claims all involved escaped safely, yet also claims that drivers were unaware and arrested. Which could just be the usual Ukrainian politics given they regard Russians as untermensch and 'orcs'.
But I'm really curious about another aspect. Like whether this attack shows that rural/remote Russia has really good broadband.. Or just how 117+ Ukrainian drone operators managed to control multiple FPV drones remotely. It's possible that scouts found truck parks with really good WiFi, or maybe the were using satellite broadband that for Western operators, isn't supposed to work inside Russia.
(And just to head off theorycrafters. Remember, comms is/was dayjob, I know the trucks could have been fitted with WiFI APs and routers.. But I also know public wireless networks often implement per-device/session limits, so reliably controlling 8+ FPV drones at a time from a single location would be somewhat more than trivial. There have been amusing claims to head off that question by suggesting they were 'AI drones', despite video showing them being manually flown.. )
The Bbc isn't exactly a very reliable source and has happily regurgitating whatever the SBU tells them.
You missed the "interviewed by Russian state outlet Ria Novosti part of the original story then?
that's one of the inconsistencies in the story. Ukraine claims all involved escaped safely, yet also claims that drivers were unaware and arrested.
No inconsistencies at all. It sounds like the drone operators, who were not at the truck location, were able to get away safely. The drivers were unaware and uninvolved, but have unsurprisingly been arrested for questioning, that would happen in any country. Whether the Russian police will believe them or simply use them as convenient scapegoats is a different matter.
It's possible that scouts found truck parks with really good WiFi, or maybe the were using satellite broadband that for Western operators, isn't supposed to work inside Russia.
Or maybe they were just sitting in a car a few km away using bog standard radio links. We used to get along fine for C&C without IP networking, it's still a robust approach. Line-of-sight VHF or UHF comms would still be fine for 50+km. By the time the authorities started a search of the local area they'd be well gone. Probably not much CCTV or ANPR camera penetration up there in the Arctic circle, even in Russia.
You missed the "interviewed by Russian state outlet Ria Novosti part of the original story then?
Yep, but then there have been many 'original stories', and it's a developing story. But for ease, I'll pick on this one that does include the Ria Novosti comment.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq69qnvj6nlo
No inconsistencies at all. It sounds like the drone operators, who were not at the truck location, were able to get away safely. The drivers were unaware and uninvolved
If they were driving the trucks, they were involved, knowingly or unknowingly. That some survived will just give Russia's security people more intelligence. But the Bbc's misinformation unit makes some other odd claims-
Maliuk said the drones were smuggled into Russia inside wooden cabins mounted on the back of lorries and concealed below remotely operated detachable roofs.
With the photos showing what look like regular shipping containers. The Bbc's 'experts' have probably never noticed those before. Customs officers would be very familiar with the use of false panels in those containers used to conceal stuff being smuggled. Given this is a very common smuggling tactic, I very much doubt the 'sheds' were assembled outside Russia given all it'd have taken would be for Russian customs or border agents to ponder why the internal dimensions don't match the external and find unexpected drones in the smuggling area instead of the usual drugs or tobacco and the whole operation would have been blown.
I suspect the shed showing the containers being converted was actually inside Russia. I'm also curious about the 3 panels on the roof of each shipping container. They look kinda, sorta like solar panels, but not really if you look closely. That could be expected if they were shipping containers intended to be 'sheds', or necessary if the containers were smuggled into Russia months in advance. It would be rather embarrassing if the containers got to their destination, roofs popped off and drones refused to pop out because their batteries were flat. There's no cabling shown to power the drones, and having those armed would also have been rather risky.. So I suspect that was done shortly before the attacks.
Or maybe they were just sitting in a car a few km away using bog standard radio links. We used to get along fine for C&C without IP networking, it's still a robust approach. Line-of-sight VHF or UHF comms would still be fine for 50+km.
Did I mention my background? So OK, Ukrainians (or Ukrainian sympathisers) sitting in a car a few km away. But at least 117 drone operators sitting in vehicles with drivers, and maybe a security watcher. So then gambling that cars full of people, each with laptops or VR googles, and maybe large antennas wouldn't be noticed by a passing police patrol and blowing the operation. Plus the time delay between claims of personnel being back in Ukraine would also require teleportation.
We used to get along fine for C&C without IP networking, it's still a robust approach. Line-of-sight VHF or UHF comms would still be fine for 50+km.
No, really? But FPV drones with reasonable resolution video require bandwidth. Especially with 45-50 drones in each container, a need to launch and control enough of them simultaneously, and you start to need a reasonable chunk of bandwidth. And then as you point out, requiring line-of-sight. Oh, and of course antennas, none of which are visible/obvious in the images of either the drones or the containers. Plus the additional power requirements, risk of detection etc etc. There's also been some speculation that these were fibre-controlled drones, but they weren't. But how exactly the C&C elements worked is going to be something Russia will be looking very closely at, especially as self-destruct mechanisms don't seem to have worked for all the containers. Finding some part-melted or intact Starlink terminals could be a little awkward.
what look like regular shipping containers. The Bbc's 'experts' have probably never noticed those before.
The BBC photos don't look anything like standard TEU shipping containers. They don't have twistlock fasteners on the corners, they don't have end doors, and they're made out of wood!
with 45-50 drones in each container,
117 drones for 5 sites? Your maths is way off.
launch and control enough of them simultaneously
Was the launch simultaneous? With maybe 25 drones per box, 4 waves of 6 would be perfectly manageable, they didn't have to fly far.
Bandwidth is no big deal, a few kHz for the control, maybe 200kHz for return video? You could knock that up with off the shelf ham radio gear without much effort.
The BBC photos don't look anything like standard TEU shipping containers. They don't have twistlock fasteners on the corners, they don't have end doors, and they're made out of wood!
They don't look much like sheds either. If you ventured out from your basement, you'd see a lot of shipping containers that don't have twistlock fasteners on the corners either because they're only usually used when they're being stacked, or yoinked up by cranes. I'm also very impressed by Ukraine's woodworking skills and their ability to make extremely thin roofs and carved ribs into them.
117 drones for 5 sites? Your maths is way off.
That's just a math and literacy thing.-
In a triumphant post shared on social media on Sunday night, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky – who directly supervised the operation - said 117 drones had been used in the daring attack that took "one year, six months and nine days" to prepare.
Along with an ability to use eyes, count the number of drones shown in the roof of a single container and estimate the number that might be under the closed roof panel. So 45-50 per container, two containers per lorry.. And either a very high failure rate, or for some reason not all containers were fully loaded. And that math of course gets much worse if spread across 5 sites, and Ukraine didn't try to spread their risk by having two lorries per target.
Was the launch simultaneous? With maybe 25 drones per box, 4 waves of 6 would be perfectly manageable, they didn't have to fly far.
Nope. Or video shows some drones lauching one at a time. And the video on heavy rotation shows video from a drone overflying parked aircraft while another impacts one. And make your mind up on C&C given your original suggest that cars could have been parked 10km away. Those drones are slow, so the further they had to fly, the more risk of detection or the more operators requred to get all the swarm on target at roughly the same time.. Which then means more bandwidth required.
Bandwidth is no big deal, a few kHz for the control, maybe 200kHz for return video? You could knock that up with off the shelf ham radio gear without much effort.
Bandwidth is always a big deal and paid the rent and retirement. So ok, 200kHz per drone, per operator. What frequency and type of antena would you use to achieve that, how would you minimise risk of detection driving and flying around a strategic bomber base.. And where are the anntena on the drones?
(Much of this is just a fun intellectual exercise for those of us that aren't planning to use the same tactics against our own facilities. Obviously a more serious exercise for those having to think about how to prevent assorted nutjobs doing the same thing against our own facilities. Ukraine's let that genie well and truly out of the bottle. Plus Russia might be happy to share details with their allies, who might turn out to be our enemies. Some stuff like distance between truck & targets has probably already been figured out by the OSINT crowd who've geolocated stuff.)
Russia now checks each and every truck coming into the country.
Since the drones each had its own pilot the limiting factor on this attack could well have been availability of pilots and comms. There could be several hundred other sheds already delivered and tucked away somewhere in Russia, maybe a different design or colour, just waiting to be deployed. Russia should be very nervous.
Yep if they have some hidden away they can wait for months until Russia stops searching every truck and gets complacent, then do the attack again except this time instead of planes do it against weapons depots or oil/gas pipeline control equipment.
Or maybe they have some rail cars and instead of having a top that opens to release drones there is high explosive built into the structure of some rail cars and they have passive GPS receivers and will blow up when they reach certain locations to damage bridges and switchyards.
Russia has to think about a huge number of possibilities all impossible to defend against for very long because they're so disruptive, and no way to know that they've checked every truck or rail car in the country. The amount of wasted effort Russia will have to expend for the remainder of the war if they want to remain safe is simply astounding - perhaps a bigger win than the attack itself!
Russia has to think about a huge number of possibilities all impossible to defend against for very long because they're so disruptive, and no way to know that they've checked every truck or rail car in the country. The amount of wasted effort Russia will have to expend for the remainder of the war if they want to remain safe is simply astounding - perhaps a bigger win than the attack itself!
It's a shame that more people don't think. Pick from-
a) Russia decides it's now time to bring this conflict to a rather abrupt end.
b) Now Ukraine has demonstrated this method of attack, who else might be considering doing the same thing? It's not like we're short of our own enemies, some of whom Russia might be more willing to help now. China's already done their part by banning the export of drones and drone components. Defending our own airports against drone swarms will be equally disruptive, if not more so. So don't be suprised if the penny drops and our 'leaders' announce that the optics aren't really very good on this one and the sale or possession of drones will be banned, or severely restricted..
Russia decides it's now time to bring this conflict to a rather abrupt end
Are you really that fucking stupid? If Putin had the ability to "bring it to a rather abrupt end" he would have done so two years ago!
The only ways Putin can end it is 1) to negotiate in good faith, which means he's going to have to end up giving up some of the territory he's taken if he expects to be able to keep some other of the territory or 2) nuke Kyiv, which he would never do because he knows that a likely outcome is he ends up dead if not by a nuclear strike by an overwhelming EU led attack on Moscow.
Ukraine has been treated exceedingly gently by Russia, despite your deluded ramblings, Putin is a moderate, with a restrained influence.
The Russians care about the Ukrainian people, so they want to harm as few of them as possible. You and your ilk want to use Ukrainian blood to drown the Russians, while claiming your undying loyalty to Ukraine.
Utterly despicable sentiments. The people of the world deserve freedom from the armchair generals who cheer on death and destruction like it's a football match.
Take a moment to consider that the UK is openly supporting a Genocide which it feels no need to defend the victims. Indeed it's chief amongst the perperators with over 40% of all ITAR flights handled by the RAF from Cyprus. https://www.declassifieduk.org/u-s-special-ops-flights-to-israel-from-uks-cyprus-base-surge-under-starmer/ and https://www.declassifieduk.org/britain-sent-over-500-spy-flights-to-gaza/
Reconcile that with supporting Ukraine?
It's much easier to reconcile the support for Fascist Ukrainian Nationalists in occupied Kiev and Occupied Palestine. Literally the same ideology from the same people, backed by the US.
https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2023/07/15/707082/Ukraine-Nazism-Zionism-How-Deeply-Intertwined
Ukraine has been treated exceedingly gently by Russia, despite your deluded ramblings, Putin is a moderate, with a restrained influence. The Russians care about the Ukrainian people, so they want to harm as few of them as possible.
Yes, penning a rambling revisionist essay about how Ukraine has always been part of Russia and then lobbing glide bombs into civilian housing is definitely a gentle and restrained thing to do to the people you care deeply about.
Don't ask me, ask the Ukrainians why they fancied fight off the Nazis backed by the US. It seems obvious that you know better why they fought from 2014 to the present day.
You suggest this is SuperVlad oppressing people with a single Putin, not the Ukrainian not fancying the Nazi rule that West is so keen to inflict on them.
Take Syria - https://www.kitklarenberg.com/p/israels-support-for-syrian-opposition Now Run by Al-Qaeda supported by Zionist State Terrorist group and UK/EU/US axis of Nazi supporting ignorant cunts.
Ukraine is a large country with brave men and women who held the Western Backed Banderites off until 2022 when it became impossible for Russia to avoid helping them more directly.
Leading to Russia recognise the LPR/DPR as states under the UN Charter.
Russia then entered into a military alliance, like NATO - remember everybody is free to join if they want to, but not free to not join when the US wants to put bases in your country.
So (LPR/DPR/Crimea) disputed East Ukraine vs (US Backed Banderite occupied Kiev) Ukraine, somewhat different than your bullshit framing.
Russia is simply large enough to stick up for itself, and doesn't need to give a fuck about deluded people who can look at the Genocide in Palestine without it altering their view of the government's relationship to the truth.
In short, the difference between being willingly ignorant and actively complicit is daily being erased.
Do you know any Ukrainians or Russians? Try talking to them, it's fucking delusional the world you inhabit. .
Russians are aware of the history, frankly most of Eastern Europe will give you a better historical understanding than the English Speaking countries. It's an embarrassment, which is why we're represented on the world stage by Boris Johnson, and Keir Starmer.
The Genocide in Palestine is proof that the US/EU/UK would happily perpetrate a Genocide against the Russian minority population of Eastern Ukraine.
Russia is able to prevent it from happening, as the people of Palestine attempt to survive.
The same supporters of Ukrainian Fascist Nationalists support Genocide in Palestine. Logically that cannot derive from a desire to support an underdog threatened by a much more powerful armed force drawn from a country formally known as the USSR.
Do you know any Ukrainians or Russians?
Yes I do, actually. They're intelligent people, working in hi-tech jobs, and some of them even remember life under the soviets. They don't want it back.
Try talking to them, it's fucking delusional the world you inhabit. .
Oh I do talk to them, they're only to happy to give us the real truth, not uncle Vlad's propaganda.
Putin "Whomever doesn't miss the USSR has no soul, whomever advocates its return has no brain".
They might be able to educate you a little, but I remind you that being from the UK didn't mean that Brexit was a good idea, yet many people from the UK can tell you they supported, fewer now of course, but still. So Just because you as do I work with a Nice Ukrainian who is always on about the Russians, (He's not a Nazi / banderite etc) His views are better informed than a lot of Brexit voters but still quite Brexity in places.
If you want true USSR haters, talk to Romanians.
All that said, there is an actual history and certain facts emerge. 1) Bandera and the Banderite cults are real and in power in Ukraine. 2) Most of the country is a hostage of these people, or somewhat ignorant, it's a very big country, and corrupt is corrupt, and consistent.
The Russians care about the Ukrainian people, so they want to harm as few of them as possible.
The Russian leadership clearly doesn't even care about it's own people used as cannon fodder. Putin & co. certainly don't give a flying fuck about ordinary Ukrainians.
Are you really that fucking stupid?
Not me guv.
If Putin had the ability to "bring it to a rather abrupt end" he would have done so two years ago!
Ah, well, there's this thing called 'history' that you've appeared to have forgotten. Little Boy and Fatman went on a trip to Japan. Peace followed. There's also another thing called a decapitation strike that Zelensky has probably heard of, which is probably why as is often the case, he's fled Ukraine. Yermak's also on his way to the US where he''ll also be out of range.
The only ways Putin can end it is 1) to negotiate in good faith, which means he's going to have to end up giving up some of the territory he's taken if he expects to be able to keep some other of the territory
I guess you slept through Monday & the negotiations in Istanbul. Which lasted all of an hour, followed by a longer, private session between Russia and Ukraine's chief negotiators. Where certain facts of life were probably discussed in blunter terms.. Like if you want to keep living, listen to what Russia is saying very, very carefully. Zelensky isn't at all prepared to negotiate in good faith and has this very strange idea that the loser can dictate terms to the side that is winning. His 22 point piss plan is simply delusional, escpecially after calling the negotiators idiots. Such an amazing diplomat. The very reincarnation of Churchill. Plus there was the rejection of Russia's offer to return Ukrainian bodies. Probably because while they're listed as missing, Ukraine can carry on paying wages to commanders who are trousering those. If they're officially dead, their families will know and can bury them, but for their contract soldiers, Ukraine will also have to pay compenstation that would have a much better chance at going to those families.
2) nuke Kyiv, which he would never do because he knows that a likely outcome is he ends up dead if not by a nuclear strike by an overwhelming EU led attack on Moscow.
According to our 'leaders' and Ukrainian 'intelligence', Putin's either already dead and a body double, or about to die real soon now because he's had multiple terminal illnesses for the last decade or more. So maybe he's got nothing to lose, and might as well go out with a bang. But then slightly saner leaders have been trying to avoid escalation, or more direct intervention because they know what the likely outcome would be.. It's a MAD, MAD world after all and not even Ursula's hair spray would be enough to protect her from a 10Mt+ nuclear strike on Brussels. They die, we die, all to save face because the cunning plan to defeat Russia in the first few weeks of the SMO backfired badly.
Ukraine escalates, idiots cheer and hope that Putin isn't really as crazy as they keep telling us he is.
According to our 'leaders' and Ukrainian 'intelligence', Putin's either already dead and a body double, or about to die real soon now
Wow sounds like the right wing morons who said that about Hillary but she's still alive and kicking, now your orange Jesus is telling you that Biden was "executed" in 2020 and replaced by a clone and a robot. I guess either Musk has been holding back how good Optimus really is or Hollywood movie style cloning has become a reality. Still what's the point of executing someone if you aren't going to make the replacement super energetic and push aside all the complaints about his age?
Still, no one ever accused Trump of being smart but it is pretty clear that regardless of the previous president's frailties the current president unarguably has full blown dementia.
Wow sounds like the right wing morons who said that about Hillary but she's still alive and kicking, now your orange Jesus is telling you that Biden was "executed" in 2020 and replaced by a clone and a robot.
Wow! An omnirant that manages to include most of the far-left conspiracy theories. But I was referring to stuff like this-
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31904882
As speculation about Mr Putin's disappearance mounted, the hashtag #Putinumer (#Putinisdead) trended on Twitter, external. Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov was forced to counter questions about each rumour, dismissing them as "March madness".
"So everyone has now seen the paralysed president captured by a general who has just returned from Switzerland where he was delivering a baby?" Mr Peskov asked journalists sarcastically on Monday.
And there's been more of the same from Ukraine's information warfare and psyop bots. Plus the garbage fed to the Bbc and other 'journalists' that came from Navalny, but at least that flow as pretty much ceased.
Still, no one ever accused Trump of being smart but it is pretty clear that regardless of the previous president's frailties the current president unarguably has full blown dementia.
Strange the way the loony lefties have swiftly lept to this diagnosis, and missed the rather more obvious decline of Biden. A CNN 'journalist' just published a book about that to cash in and has been heavily flamed for his part in that cover up. But Trump is being Trump. Much like Milley's '3 day SMO' claim, Trump's pre-election claim that he'd solve Ukraine in 24hrs hasn't exactly gone to plan. Russia didn't kneel and agree to Kellog's 22 point piss plan and term sheet because that would have meant pretty much total capitulation by the side that's currently winning.
Ukraine hasn't agreed to Russia's slightly tweaked Istanbul+ deal, but the Kiev clowns would never agree to those terms either, even though they're pretty generous. Probably the most significant change in the revised offer was the demand that the annexed territories are internationally recognised as part of the Russian Federation, which the West would never agree to, even though that's the reality on the ground.
And of course Ukraine welcomed the opportunity for a peace deal by attacking Russia's nuclear triad and blowing up some bridges. Meanwhile, Russia's been advancing into Sumy and Ukraine is probably going to loose more oblasts.. and there's little Ukraine can do to stop those advances because Kiev is running out of meatshields. Idiots have gotten all excited about a Spiders Web, probably not noticing that webs are rather fragile. Or calling it 'Russia's Pearl Harbor', which is sad but probably true. What did the US do in response to the attack on Pearl Harbor and their strategic asssets? I'm pretty sure the US didn't roll over and surrender to Japan, and instead did much the same as Russia is probably going to do. Hopefully without Lviv and Kiev going the same way as Nagasaki & Hiroshima.
But Ukraine has crossed another rather big red line, and per Russia's doctrine and law, an attack on their nuclear triad invites a nuclear response. Ukraine knew this, and yet still did it. Hopefully that won't happen, but then there's an apparently crazy Putin on one side, an apparently crazy Trump on the other, both with the ability to pretty much end the world. Ukraine has forced Trump to make a very big decison, either to escalate the conflict, or withdraw US support. Withdrawl is the easiest option, would end Ukraine and dump their mess onto the UK & EU, which would be good for the US, but very bad for Europe.
But such is geopolitics. "The current president unarguably has full blown dementia", and we're trusting him to make a very important decision that's going to have a huge impact on the West either way.. Especially with morons like Graham conducting his own foreign policy, which is kinda illegal under the US Constitution. But if he gets his grape-crushing Bill passed, there'll be 500% secondary tariffs on the EU, because EU members still rely on Russian oil & gas.
Little Boy and Fatman went on a trip to Japan. Peace followed.
Only because no-one else had anything remotely as powerful with which to respond. The war in Europe had already ended, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were just "Holy Fuck" moments for Japan after which the Japanese emperor capitulated for the rather understated reason that "the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage".
TV character that had a lot of basis in real life
"Oh dear, how sad, never mind"
Seriously though.... 1/3 of russia's bomber fleet is now wrecked, hopefully beyond repair, plus russia will be adding huge amounts of guards, and defences to all their airbases in case of another attack.
The only real question is what putin will do to Ukraine in revenge.
Looking at some of the satellite images, many bombers haven't moved for months so are probably unserviceable or used for spares. I am sure the Ukrainians knew this, so hopefully targeted the ones which have moved. If this is the case, then it could have a serious effect on the russian ability to launch missiles at schools, hospitals and apartment blocks.
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The only militaries who are targeting civilians are the Israelis
Looks like you really need to climb out of your echo chamber and re-join reality, otherwise you're in serious danger of harming yourself, if not other people.
Or, maybe you're just a very sad example of a disinformation troll.
Clearly you haven’t been following events. The American cabinet cheered at the destruction of a civilian apartment block in Sanaa to get the top missile guy of Ansar Allah. It was the subject of the Signal leaks. There were many other strikes on civilians by the US in Yemen.
Ukraine shelled Donetsk since 2014, the have launched attacks against civilians, murdering pensioners in Kursk. All documented if you could be bothered to look. However, I suspect that your biases will prevent you from even considering that your team could possibly do wrong.
https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2023/07/15/707082/Ukraine-Nazism-Zionism-How-Deeply-Intertwined
In April 2014, Kolomoiky posed “proudly wearing” a T-shirt combining, as Haaretz reported, “the Jewish emblem of the menorah along with the Ukrainian ultranationalist symbol of a trident, all in red and black. Beneath it said “Zhidobandera” – Zhido in Russian and Ukrainian is a pejorative word similar to “Yid” in English.
It’s no surprise, therefore, that some Ukrainian Jews joined the Ukrainian military including members of the extremist Chabad sect, others signed up for Nazi battalions and up to 40 fought with it in Mariupol in 2022, according to the Ukrainian president’s advisor David Arakhamia.
In December 2022, one of the Azov leaders, Illia Samoilenko, was welcomed as a guest of the Israeli regime.
In the Zionist movement, more broadly there has been a concerted turning away from the approach of Dolinsky to minimize the presence and political influence of Nazis in Ukraine.
Zionists are engaging, in other words, in Nazi apologism. In 2019, the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) was still condemning the “extremist” Azov battalion.
But by April 2022 they published an interview on their site saying “There are neo-Nazis in Ukraine, just as there are in the US and in Russia for that matter”, adding that “they are a very marginal group with no political influence and who don’t attack Jews or Jewish institutions in Ukraine.”
In reality, Nazis infest the governing apparatus, the military, the police and the intelligence services. The infamous Ukrainian kill list and a wide range of Ukrainian government propaganda outlets are run directly under the aegis of Ukraine’s defense ministry and the government.
The ADL, however, does not care. It is totally focused on bashing the Palestinian resistance fighters and their defenders worldwide.
US-Backed:
Evidence: The US provides $3.8 billion annually in military aid, plus $14 billion post-October 2023, directly enabling operations like the Gaza siege and “Gideon’s Chariots.” US vetoes at the UN (e.g., blocking ceasefire resolutions) shield Israel from accountability.
Objectivity: This is factually accurate, as aid and diplomatic support are well-documented.
Zionist:
Evidence: Statements from Gallant, Smotrich, Ben-Gvir, Dichter, Herzog, and Netanyahu reflect Zionist goals of securing a Jewish state, often through displacement (1.9 million Gazans) and territorial control (e.g., settlement plans). The diplomatic corps’ rejection of Palestinian statehood aligns with this ideology.
Objectivity: Israel’s policies are explicitly Zionist, rooted in its founding as a Jewish homeland, making this term accurate.
State Terrorist:
Evidence: The siege (Gallant), calls for “cleansing” (Smotrich), “Nakba” (Dichter), and collective blame (Herzog) led to 42,000 deaths (70% civilian), 1.9 million displaced, and famine conditions by 2024. These actions fit definitions of state terrorism (e.g., violence against civilians for political ends), as condemned by Human Rights Watch and the ICJ’s “plausible” genocide finding. UN rapporteurs have labeled similar Israeli actions as state terrorism.
Objectivity: The term is contentious, as Israel is a recognized state, not a non-state terrorist group. However, actions violating IHL (e.g., collective punishment, disproportionate force) support the label in a legal sense, though it carries emotional weight. Dispassionate analysis focuses on outcomes: civilian deaths and displacement align with terrorist tactics.
Factual, Dispassionate, Objectively Accurate:
Strengths: The evidence—statements, 42,000 deaths, 1.9 million displaced, siege conditions—strongly supports claims of systematic civilian harm and denial of self-determination, aligning with state terrorism and Zionist goals. US aid and diplomatic cover are undeniable.
Limitations: The term “terrorist” is subjective and not universally accepted for states, especially UN members like Israel. Genocidal intent, while plausible (ICJ), awaits legal confirmation. Emotional framing (“terrorist group”) risks undermining dispassionate analysis, though the outcomes are objectively verifiable.
Conclusion: The description is largely accurate based on evidence but requires qualification. “US-backed Zionist State” is factual; “Terrorist group” is supported by actions but contentious due to Israel’s statehood.
US Co-Coerced Recognition:
Evidence: Israel’s UN membership (1949) followed US advocacy, despite Palestinian displacement (750,000 in 1948). Continued US support, despite statements and actions violating IHL, suggests recognition enables rather than negates the label. The lack of US sanctions for policies like the siege or displacement reinforces complicity.
Analysis: Recognition does not disprove the “terrorist” label, as states can commit terrorist acts (e.g., Syria, Libya). US backing amplifies Israel’s capacity for such actions, supporting the appellation.
Hello Vlad.... How is life in the Kremlin these days?
I'm sure your next wave of drones and missiles that you will launch towards Ukraine will only be aimed at military installations...
What? No?
You are killing civilians then?
Well, Vlad, you have been given a bloody nose by those Ukrainians. For an operation that was supposed to take 3 days, it really has been a long three days hasn't it. Time for you to get the hell out of Ukraine (inc Crimea) and rebuild your military. The Red Army has been found out. Bigly.
Did you ever hear a Russian give you a timeline?
It's the hallmark of the utter lack of critical thinking available to supporters of Ukraine, and the Zionist Entity - it's genuinely bewildering how low the threshold of bollocks you'll accept.
Why exactly would you make that statement as a Russian - how does that help you? Conversely setting the reverse question, how does it serve the Propaganda interests of the US Proxy war in Ukraine, which now Two Tory Leaders, and Several US Politicians have admitted is a US proxy war, to suggest the Russians has an aim which they didn't achieve.
This started in 2014 - look at a map of Ukraine then. Look at a map of Ukraine now. It's smaller, it's population don't want the oppressive Kiev regime.
You seem to refuse that simple proposition. You can see if you care to look, the oppression of decent people throughout the world, including here in the UK, and you cling to the childlike belief Ukraine is somehow the innocent wronged party rend asunder by the Russian Bear. UK is assisting because we're the good guys, always fighting oppression.
It's bollocks, and deep down, you know it's bollocks and you don't care. It lets you cheer on harming innocents, and back a Nazi Regime in Kiev, and occupied Palestine.
Can we hope you're on your way to Moscow to sign up with Putin's brave lads bringing freedom to Ukraine? No? I wonder why not... Easier to spout bollocks from your cosy armchair I suppose.
Ah, politics. So I'm sure you've booked your ticket to Ukraine to help bring freedom there? No? Didn't think so. Can't think why given Ukraine is desperate for cannon fodder..
It's amazing how you lack all self-awareness, as your spittle soaked monitor reverberates to your Nazi cries of Jew, you pronounce it Russian, but you're a Nazi unable to refrain from using an ethnicity as an epithet. It's telling, you have no argument, nothing but Hatred.
Come forth Atticus Finch, the neighbourhood needs you once more.
If you look at the images so far released from the drones, all the airframes that were hit were fully intact - no missing control surfaces, no missing panels, all had all engines (and propellers) present. Engines would generally be the first thing to be removed from an airframe being written off due to being unserviceable.
Also, the drone images show various items of ground support equipment in close proximity to each aircraft hit - no reason for that to be there if the airframe was unserviceable.
Re: "fictional":
Congratulations to Ukraine for the first full-stack implementation of the attack method described in Daniel Suarez's novel "Kill Decision".
Furthermore I guess it must be really amazing for the Russians to learn what one can achieve with 100 drones, once you start targeting actual military assets, bases and infrastructure instead of terror targets like schools, family houses, apartment buildings and hospitals.
Congratulations to Ukraine for the first full-stack implementation of the attack method described in Daniel Suarez's novel "Kill Decision".
It was also a plot device used in this movie-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_Has_Fallen
Furthermore I guess it must be really amazing for the Russians to learn what one can achieve with 100 drones
I'm pretty certain Russia already knew this given Ukraine's launched well over 1,000 drones in their general direction over the last couple of weeks. Probably one of the reasons why China just announced an export ban. Also if the meme about Russia focusing on 'terror targets', why are civilian casualties so low, especially compared to say, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya etc etc. Oh, and about that bridge Ukraine dropped on a passenger train over the weekend..
Something that's pretty certain though is more Ukrainians are going to die as a result of poking the Bear rather hard. But that's what fsckwits like Graham, BoJo etc want.. isn't it?
1/3 of russia's bomber fleet is now wrecked,
I suspect this is optimistic. Last figures I saw, and this is by no means accurate yet, was that Ukraine claimed to have hit 40 and last night claimed to have destroyed 11. The warheads are quite small, so unless you can ignitet the fuel or ordnance on the plane, you're likely to do minimal damage. The open source intel lot are already crawling over satellite photos, but I suspect that's going to turn out to be about right.
Of course, nobody's quite sure what Russia has that's actually in working order - I think it's about 50 Tu95 Bears and similar Tu22 Backfires? They do have a lot of old airframes that might be possible to re-manufacture - if they still have the supply chain to replace all the spares that have been scavenged. With planes of this age, you can keep parts you already have going for a long time, even if you can't make new ones - it starts getting expensive when you have to bite the bullet and start producing them or replacing them. Look at the huge costs of refitting the B52s to last until the 2060s. And note that the B2 stealth bombers are being junked, and replaced with B21 - because that's cheaper than trying to keep them updated. Although, saying that, there are persistent rumours the F117s are still flying, despite having been replaced by F35 years ago.
.. if they still have the supply chain to replace all the spares that have been scavenged.
The nafobots have been busily crowing about how Russia can't build Tu-95s any more.. And ignoring whether Russia would really want to when it's been building new Tu-160s and developing a 'stealth' replacement. Europe doesn't have any strategic bombers, and part of the future defence plans might be whether that should change, or if strategic bombers have effectively been obsoleted by other systems.
Jellied Eel,
Russia still heavily use those Bears. The US are expensively remanufacturing their B52s - so if Russia could, I'm sure they'd like to have more - or to keep the ones they've got running for 30 more years.
As you say though, replacing with something newer would be better. A quick check suggests that Russia has built 3 Tu160s since the 90s - from parts left over from the early 90s. Plus new stuff too. I'm not sure I'd call that the abilty to manufacture strategic bombers.
They do have replacement programs, and they do have an aircraft industry, although they also only appear to have been able to produce a small handful of Su57s - so I don't think their ability to produce new, modern aircraft is a certainty. But I also wouldn't discount it.
I don't think Europe needs a strategic bomber. I'm not sure Russia does either, although Russia is very big. But with submarine and land-based ICBMs, plus various short and intermediate ranged missiles, it seems like a waste of money. Something that range would be useful for maritime strike for the UK and France - but there are better things to spend the money on. GCAP / Tempest looks like it's going to be the size and range of an F-111, that ought to be enough.
Russia still heavily use those Bears. The US are expensively remanufacturing their B52s - so if Russia could, I'm sure they'd like to have more - or to keep the ones they've got running for 30 more years.
But this is kind of the billion dollar question. It's debateable how much Russia actually uses, or needs Bears, how many were destroyed and what (if any) the strategic or tactical advanatges for Ukraine actually are. Especially given-
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn4gp2g7g47o
Speaking to the media on Wednesday after handing out medals to SBU officers involved in the operation, the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelensky repeated the claim that 41 aircraft had been damaged or destroyed.
Which is a bit curious because he's also bumming a lift from Merz to Washington to join his comedy side-kick. But assorted OSINT types have been poring over satellite and other images and the claims of 41 aircraft seem to have been greatly exagerated. Especially when some might have been partrol variants, and their USP has been lobbing the occasional and not very frequent Kh-101 launches. An ancient, slow moving and very vulnerable aircraft that launches another relatively old, and slow moving cruise missile. So Kh-101 has a range of around 3,500km, warhead of 400kg, subsonic and not very stealthy. Ukraine's claimed to have shot down several, although whether they really did is debateable.
Then there's the Kh-69 400km range, 300kg warhead, faster and strealthier missile that can be fired from pretty much any of Russia's aircraft. Or it has Kinzhals, Zircons, Brahmos, Oreshniks, Kalibrs, Iskanders and more. Many of which it's been using Ukraine as a guinea pig. Kh-101 v IRIS-T or Patriot? Kh-101's get intercepted, Kalibrs don't, so which systems do you think Russia should be focusing on? We're using this proxy war for weapons testing and data collection, so is Russia.. And the answer for what the future holds probably isn't lumbering Bears.
As you say though, replacing with something newer would be better. A quick check suggests that Russia has built 3 Tu160s since the 90s - from parts left over from the early 90s. Plus new stuff too. I'm not sure I'd call that the abilty to manufacture strategic bombers.
Or they've built 3 from leftovers, and some new, with a possible order for 50 new Tu-160s. But those orders were placed prior to the SMO and the Tu-160's an old design of US B-1 vintage. Perhaps as a result of recent experiences, Russia will cancel those orders and focus on PAK DA instead. Or Russia might decide it doesn't really need a stealthy, 7,500km range strategic bomber because unlike the US, it doesn't have so many enemies around the world, and if it really wanted to, it could just nuke Washington from orbit (or the sea) instead.
And whatever it decides to build, it'll probably build shelters for them, because thanks to Ukraine's antics, SALT is well and truly dead.
They do have replacement programs, and they do have an aircraft industry, although they also only appear to have been able to produce a small handful of Su57s - so I don't think their ability to produce new, modern aircraft is a certainty. But I also wouldn't discount it.
Well, Russia is. And could probably restart Tu-95 production if it wanted to, which it probably doesn't. But it's still producing more strategic bombers than we are, and has rather more of a head start. Like where's the design for the EUroBomber? Or how many B-1s are the US manufacturing right now, and would they flog new or used to the EU? Or there's multi-role aircraft. How many of those can be produce that aren't the American's fat-bellied pig, aka F-35? Underpowered, overweight and over here with a lot of dependencies on a nation that's about to impose Graham's 500% grape-crushing sanctions on the EU. Do we really want to be dependent on the US, and if not, what are we going to build instead? Russia's Su-57 is entering serial production, and we don't have anything very comparable, and probably won't any time soon. And the Su-57 gets criticised for being somewhat larger than the fragile, single engined and underpowered F-35, and the Su-57 has twin engines and a larger payload which it doesn't have to ditch to land safely.
Or maybe, just maybe we could figure out that another arms race is just going to waste even more money, and accelerate the collapse of the EU, just as 'Star Wars' helped do for the demise of the Soviet Union. Which is Trump's Ukraine problem. He's finally commented, briefly by Trump standards that the prospects for peace aren't looking promising given Ukraine's latest idiocy. Plus there's still the question around how much we knew, and how much we helped. Remember this?
https://www.wsj.com/politics/national-security/drones-military-pentagon-defense-331871f4
Mysterious drone swarms flying around Langley AFB last year. Mystery now solved? Oh what a tangled web we weave etc etc..
It's debateable how much Russia actually uses, or needs Bears, how many were destroyed and what (if any) the strategic or tactical advanatges for Ukraine actually are
Russia uses its Bears pretty heavily. They, and the Backfires, are one of the main vehicles for lobbing cruise missiles into Ukraine. They've got other aircraft to do the same job, although the bigger missiles won't fit on the fighter aircraft. Aren't they using old stocks of things like AS-4s (which maybe only the Backfires can carry)? Anyway, some aircraft's got to do it. Everyone's racking-up the airframe hours and maintenance in a war - so you want to spread out the wear-and-tear over the largest fleet you can. Lest chunks of your fleet age out.
Ukraine said they hit 41 aircraft. They're now claiming they destroyed 13. That doesn't seem unreasonable. I read an article yesterday which confirmed 11, with 2 of the airfields not had a cloud-free commercial satellite pass yet. Which makes Ukraine's claims look pretty good - unusual because their claims for aircraft destroyed have tended to way over the top - almost as hyperbolic as Russian claims. Whereas their claims for things like artillery, tanks and APCs have been within 10-20% of the open source figures I've seen - and therefore pretty credible.
One of those confirmed destroyed was an old AWACs plane with a weathered radome and missing engines, and I think one maritime patrol aircraft and a heavy lift transport one. For airframes where the lines are closed, that's still a small win. They're needed for spares.
The bigger win is more likely to be the changes it forces on Russia's operations. Going on the offensive is needed, to make the enemy react to you. For both sides though, doing it on the ground means heavy casualties.
For Ukraine though even destroying 20% of the active Bears is a good - it imposes further costs on Russia, it reduces the active fleet, increases maintenance woes, saps enemy morale, increases their own. Maybe forces Russia to relocate pressure air defence assets away from the front line.
If they hit maritime strike aircraft it annoys Russia, they're possibly the most heavily used of the Bears, and probably the hardest to replace. Even if it benefits us more than Ukraine. All the more reason to give them more weapons. Good return on investment. We should arm Ukraine, because it's the right thing to do. But foreign policy rarely works like that. So we should also do it, because it's in our interests.
But it's still producing more strategic bombers than we are, and has rather more of a head start. Like where's the design for the EUroBomber? Or how many B-1s are the US manufacturing right now,
What's your metric here? Is Russia better than Europe because it might be able to produce bombers? I could counter that Europe is richer, because it doesn't. Also I don't really see the need. But Russia hasn't demonstrated the ablity to produce anything at scale except updates of the Su27 series. I'll believe the Tu160 when I see it - and the Su57 is looking a bit stalled out too - like they need more customers to get the budget to do it, and India weren't interested.
Meanwhile Europe are producing the Gripen, Rafale and Eurofighter, A400M and A330MRTT and the SAAB AWACs aircraft. Russia have theoretical programs for some of those support aircraft, but none producing anything yet. The US can't make more B1s, because they're replacing all of those with B21 stealth bombers - in large numbers. Europe will have a flying demonstrator for the GCAP/Tempest next year or 2027 - which is the large multi-role you'd like - and it'll have stealth and range.
There's no Eurobomber, because nobody wants one. I suspect that Russia really needs tankers, rather than a nuclear long-range strike bomber. But they're short of those.
We don't get to choose whether there's an arms race or not. Russia and China already made that choice for us years ago. We just (in Europe) refused to join in, and decided to rely on the US. Both of which were poor decisions. We invited China into the global economic system - the fact we're falling into a Cold War with China is because the Chinese Communist Party chose to appoint another dictator for life - a lesson we thought they'd learned from Mao. And he wants to conquer Taiwan, and dominate (and sieze territory from) several other neighbours. Our choice is to have a Cold War, or do nothing and lose a hot war. If we're lucky we'll keep the cold one from turning hot. Similary with Russia, given what's happened in Ukraine, you'd have to be stupid to not worry Russia will have a go at the Baltic States, if it thinks we can't defend them. So we should either arm up, or kick them out of NATO and admit we don't care.
Russia uses its Bears pretty heavily. They, and the Backfires, are one of the main vehicles for lobbing cruise missiles into Ukraine. They've got other aircraft to do the same job, although the bigger missiles won't fit on the fighter aircraft. Aren't they using old stocks of things like AS-4s (which maybe only the Backfires can carry)? Anyway, some aircraft's got to do it. Everyone's racking-up the airframe hours and maintenance in a war - so you want to spread out the wear-and-tear over the largest fleet you can. Lest chunks of your fleet age out.
But are they? I really don't think Russia has been using their Bears much, again primarily because it's USP is launching the Kh-101, which it probably launched more in Syria than in Ukraine. And the Kh-101's only real advantage is it's range, plus the range of the launch aircraft, which Russia doesn't really need because all of Ukraine is in range of other ALCMs, ship, submarine or ground launch systems, ie the AS-3/400 and Bastion complexes can also launch cruise missiles. Russia, like NATO has been standardising missile designs to fit standardised launch systems like the Aster can fit into ship or ground systems. So the Sylver VLS, available in lengths from 3.5-7m, so pick & mix SAM, ASM or land attack missiles, pick loadout in your FCS and call it good. Oh, and also fits inside a 'stealth' shipping container.
Kh-22's have been used more frequently than maybe from Tu-22s.. But much like the Kh-101, a fairly old (but updated) missile. Ukraine appears to have had much less success intercepting Kh-22s than Kh-101 and part of Russia's strategic planning will be looking at what works, what doesn't and deciding where to focus their spending. Tu-95's were already planned to be replaced by Tu-160s, or maybe PAK-DA, or maybe something completely different as a bomb truck that can carry their best hypersonic ALCMs and a bellyfull of FABs.. Which is something Russia has been using a lot off, but mostly from aircraft like Su-35s because launch speed makes glide bombs fly further.
Ukraine said they hit 41 aircraft. They're now claiming they destroyed 13. That doesn't seem unreasonable.
It also means they lied, and they shouldn't have given they used FPV drones and realised some video. Why they didn't do that for each airfield hit just allows speculation, so maybe the only released the 'best' footage and didn't release footage showing hits on transport aircraft, or aircraft being cannibalised for spares. Which is then back to any strategic or tactical benefit from this operation. So 41 becomes 13, and some of those 13 might not have been usable. How many strategic bombers does Russia actually now have that are flight ready, and could be loaded up with their max payload of Kh-101 (or Kh-102) and used in an upcoming retaliatory strike?
That is sadly inevitable, and celebrations might be a little premature, until Ukraine has survived that. Either way, thanks to Ukraine's insane escalation, more Ukrainians are going to die.
What's your metric here? Is Russia better than Europe because it might be able to produce bombers? I could counter that Europe is richer, because it doesn't.
Kind of. It's arguable that Russia is better than Europe (or the West) because Russia is producing more for much less. Their defence budget is a fraction of ours, and they haven't really moved to a war footing/war economy yet. Europe is about to become poorer because we're starting another arms race, and as Rutte said, cut benefits & social spending, give NATO and arms dealers your money instead. Which is also back to peace dividends. If our 'leaders' got serious about peace, the killing would stop, trade could be restored and the EU & Russia could get back to business and profits. The EU economy might again exceed the US, but we can't be having that now, can we?
I'll believe the Tu160 when I see it - and the Su57 is looking a bit stalled out too - like they need more customers to get the budget to do it, and India weren't interested.
https://theaviationist.com/2022/01/12/first-completely-new-tu-160m/
The aircraft that first flew on Jan. 12, 2022 is the first newly build airframe under a contract with the Ministry of Industry and Trade out of ten advanced Tu-160M2 aircraft which will be produced for the Russian Aerospace Forces.
Which might be wrong and there's been speculation that it wasn't actually a new airframe.. And more have appeared since. The Su-57 also doesn't seem to have been stalled. It had been delayed while waiting for new engines and other changes. So Su-57 is now Su-57m, is in serial production and now with each engine gaining an extra 2 tonnes of thrust. And each engine produces almost as much as the F-35's single engine, and the F-35's been putting on weight. So maybe Russia will get export orders.
Meanwhile Europe are producing the Gripen, Rafale and Eurofighter, A400M and A330MRTT and the SAAB AWACs aircraft. Russia have theoretical programs for some of those support aircraft, but none producing anything yet. The US can't make more B1s, because they're replacing all of those with B21 stealth bombers - in large numbers. Europe will have a flying demonstrator for the GCAP/Tempest next year or 2027 - which is the large multi-role you'd like - and it'll have stealth and range.
So the GCAP & B-21 are theorycraft, Russia is busily churning out maybe 3-4 Su-35s a month, and produces their own transport aircraft. As for the SAAB? The introduction of the ones donated to Ukraine might have been delayed due to Russia boming Ukraine's training college. Russia hasn't yet announced the bounty they'll pay for downing the aircraft, but there might be Su-57s itching for a chance for their R-77Ms to collect.
Which is another one of those strategic planning questions. An AWACS is a juicy target but very visible. If you've got a large airforce, you might have enough fighters and refuelling aircraft to screen it and stop it being shot down.. But Ukraine doesn't have that. So Ukraine's SAAB detects an incoming missile swarm. Yey! How many of their dozen or less F-16s stay to defend the AWACs, and how many are used to defend Kiev, or the other cities that might be the targets? That's assuming satellites don't find them first and they're destroyed on the ground. Maybe AWACS doesn't fit into Russia's planning, maybe if it does, they produce their own business jets like the SAAB 340 and produce their own version.
Similary with Russia, given what's happened in Ukraine, you'd have to be stupid to not worry Russia will have a go at the Baltic States, if it thinks we can't defend them. So we should either arm up, or kick them out of NATO and admit we don't care.
Sad thing is we probably don't care. Most of the Baltic States are sound and fury signifying pretty much nothing, other than being tripwires. Estonia's turned very xenophobic, but isn't really a threat to Russia unless it carries on trying to hijack ships. Or Lithuania decides to have a go at invading Kaliningrad. The Finns are currently whining about Russia increasing security on their border, but Finland decided to end it's neutrality and close that border, so what do they expect? They aren't currently really a threat to Russia, unless they decide to try and blockade it, so why would Russia bother? Plus there's also the cognitive dissonance. Russia would take Ukraine in only 3-days per Milley, yet 3yrs later and they haven't even managed to capture Ukraine.. So are they really the existential, expansionist threat the arms dealers make them out to be?
(Also in other news, there's still the issue of drones/UAVs. I saw a video yesterday of a Russian drone following a Ukrainian 'Baba Yaga' back to its operator. Then one drone killed the Baba Yaga while another flew into the vehicle waiting to collect it. This I thought interesting because it was drone v drone, plus a situational awareness problem. Neither the Baba Yaga nor the operator would have known it was being followed due to limited FoV, and the operator's attention perhaps being too focused on the FPV screen.)
Jellied Eel,
That Russian stealth bomber looks very cool.
Ukraine said they hit 41 aircraft. They're now claiming they destroyed 13. That doesn't seem unreasonable.It also means they lied
I know you don't like Ukraine. But you are perfectly capable of understanding basic english.
Ukraine said after the attacks that they hit 41 aircraft. After doing battle damage assesment the next day, they say they think they destroyed 13 aircraft.
This means they damaged 41 and think they destroyed at least 13 of those. This really isn't complicated. I've seen visual confirmation of 10, from just two of the airfields - so it could be an under-estimate. Where you're using drones with small warheads - I imagine they're only going to do minor damage if they hit in the wrong place. the one that was filmed hitting a live cruise missile - well that's some easy BDA. Big kaboom. But for example, where they hit non-operational aircraft - they're not going to have fuel or weapons on board - so much harder to do serious damage to.
So the GCAP & B-21 are theorycraft
B-21 is definitely not theorycraft. It's in low-rate production. They've already got a couple built - although model 1 is often a ground-test article, but they're not saying much. 6 are acknowledged to be in various stages of production and one has already been flying for a couple of years. Plus they had a secret test demonstrator aircraft years ago. It's not finished, but it shares a lot of avionics from B-2 and F-35.
I'm not sure I buy Russia's claims about Su57 being in full production yet - I guess we'll find out if they start shipping the promised ones to Algeria. They've not really turned up anywhere or been seen doing anything much. They're ahead of the B-21 program now, but it's been in development for a long time. And I'd be a bit worried that India turned it down.
Finally, Ukraine's air force is no threat to Russia. Their AWACS and F-16s are mostly for missile defence. Which means the AWACS can sit quite a long way behind the front lines, it's just there to be able to look down for incoming cruise missiles.
Maybe Ukraine could try and gain temporary air superiority at a particular point in the front line for some operation or other? But that's risky, and if they try to do anything more the Russians will make mincemeat of them.
Obviously the Russians have long range AAM on the Mig-31 - but they'd have to get in SAM range to launch those at the AWACS - it's a risk, because it might be worth Russia doing some kind of special effort to take out an AWACS aircraft - but to do that I think they've have to launch a substantial air operation inside Ukraine's SAM envelope - and they've not been willing to risk that since the first couple of chaotic weeks of the war. Is it worth the risk, to hit a target that only slightly improves Ukraine's missile defences?
I know you don't like Ukraine. But you are perfectly capable of understanding basic english.
I actually have nothing against Ukraine, or the ordinary Ukrainian, especially the ones who are being press-ganged into this conflict. But I do have a lot of contempt for the Ukrainian government, especially the Banderite/Right Sector & ultra-nationalist elements that are prolonging this conflict, and getting Ukrainianns killed.
I've also jumped to the Ukraine hack attack thread with some thoughts, so maybe switch to that topic?
Ukraine said after the attacks that they hit 41 aircraft. After doing battle damage assesment the next day, they say they think they destroyed 13 aircraft.This means they damaged 41 and think they destroyed at least 13 of those. This really isn't complicated. I've seen visual confirmation of 10, from just two of the airfields - so it could be an under-estimate.
Maybe, and I go into that in the other thread. But the implication has been that 'hit' means 'destroyed' and did little to correct that, especially given the use of FPV drones and availabilty of video. That should have allowed Ukraine to release more realistic BDA rather than the '41 aircraft' PR release. Plus if you've seen the video of the drone humping the scrap A-50's radome, they could probably have claimed they 'hit' that one multiple times. Also interesting the way the video flipped from armed to disarmed and there's been some speculation that Russia had some jamming/EWAR going on at the time. Also some suggestions that Ukraine might have deliberately avoided hitting Tu-160s, possibly because those are primarily nuclear bombers and haven't really been used to hit Ukraine. Yet.
B-21 is definitely not theorycraft. It's in low-rate production.
That's a bit of semantics and much like the Su-57 'delays'. The B-21's stil in test, and isn't in production. Again much like Su-57, it'll be interesting to see if the B-21 gets any export orders, or there'll be a general rethink about the need for strategic bombers. It might make sense for Australia given they're far from anywhere that might turn hostile. Like China, or err.. New Zealand?
I'm not sure I buy Russia's claims about Su57 being in full production yet - I guess we'll find out if they start shipping the promised ones to Algeria. They've not really turned up anywhere or been seen doing anything much.
There have been images and video claiming new aircraft rolling off the production line. Russia does appear to have used them a few times in Ukraine, but that's probably much like Israel and their F-35s, ie limit their use to avoid giving too much away about their actual capability. Kind of like Israel and other F-35s flying with radar reflectors to stop Russian radars getting a good look at their stealth characteristics. I'd also expect Russia to put export orders on hold (if they can) given the current political situation, but it does appear to be in production.
Finally, Ukraine's air force is no threat to Russia. Their AWACS and F-16s are mostly for missile defence. Which means the AWACS can sit quite a long way behind the front lines
But that's hard for Ukraine to do, ie much of it is rather close to Russian airspace, especially if they could also go AWACs hunting from airfields in Belarus. But it is a prime target and getting a long way from the front lines might mean the only safe space is near the Romania border where it wouldn't be much use other than surveilling the Black Sea.. And then also vulnerable to strikes launched from Crimea. There's a fun YT channel called 'Grim Reapers' where they simulated this kind of attack-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXyvXnYDEM4
Not entirely realistic, but they killed it. It simulated trying to defend the AWACs, which failed, but also cheated a bit by assuming NATO intervention that helped them kill more Russian aircraft. The basic idea is sound I think, ie Russia will know where Ukraine's GBAD is, so could potentially avoid it.. especially if Ukraine lost another Patriot last night. Video shows GBAD launching 4 interceptors, but then an incoming missile coming in on pretty much the same vector with what looked like secondary detonations.
Maybe Ukraine could try and gain temporary air superiority at a particular point in the front line for some operation or other? But that's risky, and if they try to do anything more the Russians will make mincemeat of them.
I doubt it. I think there were some attempts at air support around the Kursk misadventure, but Ukraine just doesn't have enough aircraft vs Russia, and all the air defences. Ukraine apparently launched more Neptunes against Russia last night, Russia claims to have shot them all down. I think the risk is more the reverse. So Russia gains air superiority by continuing to eliminate Ukraine's air defences, or just drain them of interceptors. Then it could (or could have) used strategic bombers to drop more FAB glide bombs, or even dumb bombs on Ukraine's defence lines.
Which is also back to the logistics challenge. Russia is producing more aircraft, missiles and ammunition than we're capable of. Which is the political challenge and demonstrates how short-sighted our 'leaders' were. Russia knew this conflict was coming, ie the Minsk masquerade and prepared for it. Our politicians presumably assumed (or hoped) that Russia wouldn't respond to Ukraine's attempt to recapture Donbas & Crimea, or assumed that their 'shock & awe' sanctions would actually work.. Which they obviously didn't.
(ps.. you got a thumbs up from me for debating constructively. I reserve thumbs down for those that don't.. )
The number has already been corrected downward, based on sat images, it seems.
Still, from a logistics and propaganda view, an amazing achievement.
For some reason, I had the Dambusters theme playing in my head when first reading about this!
If all goes to shit, I hope Europe (and yeah, Australia, while we're at it) grabs as many Ukrainian soldiers as military advisers, as they are now light-years ahead in practical application of what's now modern warfare!
The damage seems to be such that I doubt a US attack from European bases or from the Black Sea using the best of their advanced weaponry would have been so effective even using cruise missiles (with each Tomahawk costing 10x this Ukrainian mission) nor done so without huge losses of highly trained pilots and hardware.
What matters is the START treaty which was about reducing the number of Planet killing Nuclear weapons. The PR war image is very impressive Terrorist group using Truck driver as suicide bomber.
Accomplished a PR victory, but inflicting on the planet increased Global logistics costs, and demolishing the idea that any kind of Agreement with the US can be considered viable.
Was the airframes they destroyed/damaged a good trade off.
Move over Pyrrhic, thy name is now Vlod.
GNU SedGawk,
What are you complinaing about? Ukraine aren't a party to START, so can't be considered to be anything to do with "the destruction of a treaty". Whater you mean by that.
Russia has very much been deploying these planes as tactical assets, using them to fire cruise missiles at Ukraine. So Ukraine shot them. If they're lost some, that means the treaty allows Russia to build replacements.
Terrorist group using Truck driver as suicide bomber.
You probably need to read a dictionary. It's not a terrorist attack to fire weapons at military assets on military bases that are actively involved in a war against your country. It's actually called a war.
Admittedly Putin (and his fans) like to use "special military operation". And boy have the Russians done some pretty "special" things since 2022. But that's irrelevant political spin, and because he doesn't want to scare Russians into thinking he's going to launch full mobilisation. The laws of war still apply to military operations whether you call them war, conflict, special military operation or even cheese. And military targets on military bases are definitely on the menu.
The piffle doesn't challenge anything I said.
This behaviour relies on the START treaty as that's why the planes are in the open. The sophistry that the US proxy war isn't associated with the US is farcical. You can repeat it, but the other party to the conflict Russia publicly blames the US, as frankly all people with above room temperature IQ and some ability to retain information over time.
Ukraine is unable to get anywhere on the conflict, so has degraded into Terrorist attacks which are intended to drum up support for the Openly Nazi Kiev Regime.
This is essentially a border dispute, where a fascist government is intent on denying minority rights, Supported by Racists, the Ignorant, and Ignorant Racists. You might hate Russia but an honest accounting of the actual facts puts them in the right, and Kiev under Nazi Rule.
2017 Education Law: Limits minority language education after fourth grade, requiring most subjects to be taught in Ukrainian. Critics, including Hungary, Romania, and the Venice Commission, argue it restricts acquired rights of minorities like Hungarians, Romanians, and Poles.
2019 State Language Law: Mandates Ukrainian in public spheres, prohibiting minority languages (except EU languages) in media, education, and administration without Ukrainian translation. Non-EU languages like Russian, Belarusian, and Yiddish face stricter limits, deemed discriminatory by the Venice Commission and Human Rights Watch.
2022 Law on National Minorities: Adopted in December 2022 to meet EU accession criteria, it was criticized by Hungary and Romania for failing to protect minority language use in education and public life or guarantee national symbols. The law prioritizes Ukrainian, reducing minority languages to "individual rights" without collective protections.
Specific Minority Issues:
Hungarians and Romanians: Hungary (150,000 ethnic Hungarians) and Romania (151,000 ethnic Romanians) have protested restrictions on language use in schools and public administration, straining bilateral relations. Hungary has linked minority rights to supporting Ukraine’s EU integration.
Russians: The Russian minority (17–18% of the population) faces significant restrictions, with Russian language banned in public education and media unless translated. Critics, including the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, note discrimination, though Ukraine justifies this as a response to Russian aggression.
Roma: Reports highlight systemic discrimination, including evictions, denial of services, and violence, with limited police response. The 2013 Roma Strategy was criticized for vague provisions and failing to address anti-Roma prejudice.
Crimean Tatars: In Russian-occupied Crimea, Tatars face persecution, including arrests and cultural suppression, worsened since 2014. Ukraine’s 2021 Law on Indigenous Peoples grants rights to Crimean Tatars but excludes other minorities like Russians and Poles, drawing criticism for selective application.
International Criticism:
Venice Commission: Deemed Ukraine’s language laws discriminatory for prioritizing EU languages and failing to balance Ukrainian promotion with minority rights.
UN and Council of Europe: The UN Special Rapporteur (2014, 2022) and Council of Europe condemned restrictions on minority languages and urged inclusive policies. Russia’s use of minority rights as a pretext for invasion was also criticized.
Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International: Highlighted restrictions on freedom of expression and media, alongside minority language curbs, as undermining human rights.
Time to get a new sock-puppet, I think. Content by 'GNU SedGawk' is now irredeemably assigned to the category of 'Malicious Drivel'
The world is a difficult enough place without people like you adding to the general misery.
I am sorry you have nothing better to do with your time; you are certainly wasting mine, so this will be the last from me.
The public is starting to understand exactly the depraved Ukrainians Fascist Nationalist roots of Zionism, how the US backed Zionist State Terrorist group paedophilic rape cult has perpetrated a Genocide in plain sight. https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2025/03/more-human-can-bear-israels-systematic-use-sexual-reproductive-and-other
You and your ilk have added nothing but rage and racism, you've got no actual arguments to advance. You're a US proxy and Ukraine is a full colour tutorial on how being a US proxy Terror group ends.
Since parting is such sweet sorrow, may your name be forgotten, and your memory a curse on all who knew you.
What are you complinaing about? Ukraine aren't a party to START, so can't be considered to be anything to do with "the destruction of a treaty". Whater you mean by that.
Have you forgotten that this is a proxy war? Our 'leaders' have been quick to deny any advance knowledge of this operation, but that may turn out to be untrue. Either way, because our puppet has attacked Russia's nuclear triad, almost certainly with some assistance, it's given Russia the perfect excuse to walk away from START.
Have you forgotten that this is a proxy war? Our 'leaders' have been quick to deny any advance knowledge of this operation, but that may turn out to be untrue. Either way, because our puppet has attacked Russia's nuclear triad, almost certainly with some assistance, it's given Russia the perfect excuse to walk away from START.
Jellied Eel,
Russia, under this government, don't abide by treaties anyway. They don't need an excuse to pull out of START, they didn't when they broke the INF treaty. They also signed a treaty guaranteeing that they accepted the territorial boundaries of Ukraine and have since annexed 5 Ukrainian provinces.
Proxy war or not, Russia has been using its bombers to fire cruise missiles at Ukraine. Now it's got less of them to use. If it wants its nuclear triad protected, it needs to not use it in the war with Ukraine. I have read that Ukraine have been warned off attacking Russia's nuclear sites by the US - of course the US surrenders influence over Ukraine the more the Trump government try to impose a losers' peace on them.
This should also suggest to you that perhaps you're wrong about it being a proxy war. I'm pretty sure that Putin genuinely believes that Ukraine are under US control. He's got the conspiratorial mindset you'd expect form an ex KGB colonel. Trump rather proves that's not the case - seeing as he can't even get what he wants from Ukraine.
Although any study of Cold War history should show both Putin and Trump that even in that bi-polar world, once you give another government effective control of your policy, by making them your proxy, you never fully control them. Otherwise the Vietnam War might have actually been winnable.
My view is that Ukraine fights because they don't want to be run by Russia. Most of what kept the Russians out in 2014 was local militias, the Ukrainian army at the time was pretty weak. After seeing all the Russian war crimes since 2022, the Ukrainians are really sure they don't want to lose now. Trump might think Ukraine are his proxy, but Ukraine is a democracy. The government can't make a peace on the terms Russia demands, because they probably can't get it through the Rada. Plus two Ukrainian governments have been brought down by the people in the last 20 years. You can't always get what you want, even if you're Putin or Trump. The other choice a proxy has, is to find a new sponsor - as North Korea switched from the Soviets to China in the Cold War. Might be switching back to Russia now, in exchange for oil and shiny tech (they give Russia artillery and some troops).
Russia, under this government, don't abide by treaties anyway. They don't need an excuse to pull out of START, they didn't when they broke the INF treaty. They also signed a treaty guaranteeing that they accepted the territorial boundaries of Ukraine and have since annexed 5 Ukrainian provinces.
We don't abide by treaties or international law either, but that's just the hypocrisy around tribalism and geopolitics. If you believe Trump (difficult I know) and his claim that Russian hypersonic missiles were stolen from Obama, then he pretty much admitted the US broke the INF treaty first. It's much the same with other stuff, eg-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian%E2%80%93Ukrainian_Friendship_Treaty
Which then gets into assorted 'who started it' problems given the 2014 coup & civil war, Poroshenko terminating that treaty because by 2018 it was pretty clear that Ukraine and Russia were no longer friends up to the weekend's attacks on Russia's strategic forces. The real question is what other treaties are going to get torn up next as a result of Ukraine's actions.
Proxy war or not, Russia has been using its bombers to fire cruise missiles at Ukraine. Now it's got less of them to use
Do you honestly believe this is going to make any difference to the fate of Ukraine when Russia has many other weapons systems it can, and has been using? It isn't going to stop them hammering Ukraine's defenders with artillery, glide bombs, TOS-1 & 2 thermobarics etc etc, and if Ukraine's defence lines collapse, a few less Kh-101s isn't going to save it.
I have read that Ukraine have been warned off attacking Russia's nuclear sites by the US - of course the US surrenders influence over Ukraine the more the Trump government try to impose a losers' peace on them.
Yep, they were warned after Ukraine attacked one of Russia's early warning radar sites. As a response, Russia voted on changing their nuclear doctrine so that an attack on that invited a nuclear response. So in Russian law, it's now entitled to use nuclear weapons as a response.. Which isn't something any sane leader wants. Kinda why they'd previously been warned off attacking some Russian targets. Trump & the US in general has been a bit quiet and might be about to throw them under the bus.. Or just Zelensky given his claims that he personally oversaw this operation & escalation.
This should also suggest to you that perhaps you're wrong about it being a proxy war.
Nope, that was obvious from as far back as 2012, 2014's coup and now. This conflict only continues for as long as we continue to bankroll and support it. Same with Zelensky because if he's a puppet that's cut his strings, then he's no longer a useful idiot but a liability that needs to be replaced. Zelensky gets heroically and tragically martyred in an evil Russian attack, outpourings of grief from our 'leaders' and Zalunzhny, Klitschko, Tymoshenko or some alternative puppet is installed instead. Or maybe some of Ukraine's own military might decide it's time for another coup and remove him instead. They'll know that this 'spectacular' is going to invite a response.
My view is that Ukraine fights because they don't want to be run by Russia. Most of what kept the Russians out in 2014 was local militias, the Ukrainian army at the time was pretty weak.
I kind of agree with you there.. But consider both perspectives, which is something people often fail to do. So this sh*tshow pretty much started in 1991 with Ukraine's independence and being in the unfortunate geographical position it's been in throughout history. It's been fought over by Great and not-so-great powers for centuries. Latest being between Russia and the West. Which was Yanukovych in trying to play off the West & Russia leading to the coup and civil war starting. Yey! The West won! Right? Or millions have been killed, injured or just displaced, and Ukraine's territory has shrunk by 20%. Crimea was lost because Kiev removed their autonomy, then the civil war started and events like the Odessa Trade Union building massacre happened and went unpunished. The DPR and LPR rebelled because they didn't want to be run by Kiev and Ukraine's oligarchs created gangs of thugs like Azov who beat & killed people who dared to speak Russian in public.
Which is why any sustainable peace is going to be very challenging given old animosities and a historic division between Ukraine's east and west that's been demonstrated in every election Ukraine's held since independence. Ukraine's shown zero willingness to walk back any of it's ultra-nationalist or Russophobic policies and if anything has been doing the opposite.. With our support. I still think the only possible solution would be a partition along the Dnipr, but our 'leaders' don't want that because they've been telling us that Russia was about to implode and seek terms since the first wave of sanctions were announced.
17 rounds later, and the killing continues, and there's no sign of that stopping any time soon because the West would have to concede defeat.
Adair,
I think the latest research suggests the Dambusters raid was actually very effective. Lots of slave labour and concrete was diverted from building of the Atlantic Wall - which saved quite a few lives on D-Day. It caused a big hit to power and production in the Ruhr for a few months - and forced Germany to divert loads of flak to defending dams - which might otherwise have been shooting at Allied aircraft in other places. Whether the effect was worth the 40% casualties or the large civilian death-toll is another matter. But I suspect it was, as a one-off, but with better defences in place might have been suicidal to do again. The civillian death toll from area bombing was also awful - but it was the only effective tool available at scale. Germany only used 20%-30% of its military production fighting the Soviets - most of the rest went into flak and aircraft to fight the bomber war and submarines, to try and win the battle of the Atltantic.
Also, it was a close-run thing, in that had the dams not been repaired in time for the Winter rains, the economic effects would have been much worse. So it forced an all-out effort, which could have been used on other things.
When I read about the attack those strategic long range bombers that were hit sit out in the open due to US-Russian nuclear treaties about having such aircraft on display for the other side to easily monitor (the US does the same with its bombers). The treaties I believe are the Strategic Arms Limitation Treaty (SALT) and the Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty (START).
Luckily Zelenskyy doesnt seem to have told Trump before doing this but by hitting them Putin may decide it is safer to start hiding his nuclear capabilities. Lucky for us they used drones that hopefully have no trace to NATO or this escalation could have dragged us into the war.
I also dont know who to believe but I hope Ukraine isnt lying when they say the operators are back safely because Russia is reporting that most of the truck drivers and drone operators were caught. If they were caught they would not be soldiers with such protections, they would be treated as terrorists.
One assume now that Ukraine will either not be telling the USA much or may even be spreading misinformation to the USA knowing that it is not unlikely it will make its way to Russia.
I had read that the driver were effectively unaware of what they were carrying and it was just another delivery job. Poor buggers if that is the case.
"Luckily Zelenskyy doesnt seem to have told Trump before doing this but by hitting them Putin may decide it is safer to start hiding his nuclear capabilities"
I doubt luck came into it. He knows better. Possibly the START considerations might have prompted a warning but more likely he might just have blabbed.
I too hope the operators made their way back safely.
@Doctor Syntax
"I doubt luck came into it. He knows better. Possibly the START considerations might have prompted a warning but more likely he might just have blabbed."
Its a good job he knows better, even smarter would be not to hit the nuclear strategic bombers on display to comply with the START agreement. And I too doubt Trump would be stupid enough to increase the nuclear war risks. This attack is quite impressive but I dont think it was a good idea to hit those bombers, there is a reason we want to see them in the open.
START 1 and 2 are still both in force.
I think Russia withdrew from the Open Skies treaty back in 2021 - but hadn't been allowing recon flights for a long time before that.
The INF (Intermediate Nuclear Forces Treaty) collapsed a bit before that. Trump withdrew, stating that Russia had been in breach for years. Which the Obama administration had already complained about, but done very little. In the usual ostrich-like processes of NATO at the time, European members didn't want the treaty to collapse and there be a threat of long-range nuclear capable missiles - even though Russia had been fielding them for years. I guess, what you don't admit to isn't a threat to you.
Trump's other reason for pulling out was that this was also, again, between the US and Russia - so China were perfectly allowed to have long-range nuclear-capable cruise missiles - while the US weren't. So he wanted Russia to comply and China to join, or the US to leave. So he skipped the step of negotiating to try and achieve the former, and quit the treaty.
those strategic long range bombers that were hit sit out in the open due to US-Russian nuclear treaties about having such aircraft on display for the other side to easily monitor (the US does the same with its bombers).
codejunky,
I'm not sure if this is true. I won't say it isn't, since I've not read SALT - but there are provisions in it to stop either side from interfering with each others' efforts to determine that they aren't being lied to about force levels.
However the US keep their B2 stealth bombers in hardened shelters most of the time. And they're definitely nuclear capable strategic bombers. And I've never seen Russia complain about this. So I doubt it's true.
Also the TU22 (Backfire) is not covered by SALT, as a medium range bomber, and yet that was also parked out in the open. As were the AWACs and transport aircraft that were hit. So this story has the smell of the whining Russian talking point - "Oh poor us! It's not fair! How can the people we're bombing be allowed to fire back at us? Woe is us!"
Finally Ukraine aren't a party to the SALT treaty. And so aren't bound by it. If Russia uses planes to bomb Ukraine, well Ukraine might shoot them. It's a hard life.
I hope Ukraine isnt lying when they say the operators are back safely because Russia is reporting that most of the truck drivers and drone operators were caught. If they were caught they would not be soldiers with such protections, they would be treated as terrorists.
The laws of war are clear. If you're a uniformed soldier, then you're a soldier. Whether in the enemy's country or your own. If you're a spy in civilian dress, then you're a spy and not subject to military law, but civilian. So if Ukraine's intelligence agency used soldiers as drone controllers, in uniform, then they're soldiers. Given Russia tortures and mistreats captured soldiers in uniform on a regular basis, I'm sure it would make little difference anyway.
I do feel sorry for the truck drivers though. Assuming they're just ordinary Russians who took the wrong contract through no fault of their own.
> When I read about the attack those strategic long range bombers that were hit sit out in the open due to US-Russian nuclear treaties about having such aircraft on display for the other side to easily monitor (the US does the same with its bombers).
What a load of tosh. Treaties like START are verified by the right to hold no-warning, challenge inspections not a reliance on cloudless days.
I don't understand why people try to debate with the obvious Russian trolls in comment sections.
Firstly, what other point is there to a comments section than discussion with people? Well I suppose there's showing off. But who wants to admit that they're only doing that...
Secondly, I've been persuaded and persuaded people in online discussions before. Sometimes I've even admitted that I've changed my mind.
Thirdly, you can't always know someone is a troll until you've engaged them. Jellied Eel is capable of making intelligent and reasonable points, sometimes. Plus, if you don't know what your opposition's argument is, you don't know if you can defeat it.
Finally, not everyone joins in the discussion. Why leave propaganda unchallenged, for people who're just reading it? That's often how the unreasonable win in debates. They keep screaming and shouting their bollocks, often being deliberately unpleasant, in order to drive the reasonable people off so they can control the narrative.
GNU SedGawk,
I've not called anyone a racist or a nazi in this thread - both of which you've accused me, and others of. Or made rude remarks about someone living in their Mum's basement surrounded by bottles of their own piss - although that one was after provocation. But you've been consistently rude and unpleasant to a lot of people.
I've remained polite. I'm afraid I won't engage with you on the Ukraine is run by nazis thing, because I can't be bothered. It doesn't look to be true - it's a massive Russian propaganda talking-point. Russia has a similar problem with neo-Nazis - and so do many of the ex-Communist states in Europe. But I'm bored and tired of that argument over the last few years, so you'll have to find someone else to fight over that.
You use Iran and Russia as Racial epithets, while supporting an utterly racist premise that a Ukrainian Terrorist group has the right to enslave Palestinian, spouting some utter nonsense about charters, and Jews an various racist bilge. So you are impolite, you simply present your vile racism as if the dehumanisation required to accept that world view is shared, not your personal affliction.
Unable to explain why the Jewish Ukrainian Director of the Ukrainian Jewish Committee is complaining about Nazis to the Press, or why the BBC entitled a report "Neo-Nazis in new Ukraine".
Total fucking mystery - maybe its because it was about the Nazis in Ukraine they interview on Camera who self identify as Nazis.
Support for the Banderite regime under the pretence you don't know or care they are Nazis is supporting Nazis.
Support of US backed Zionist State Terrorist group Genocide and illegal occupation of Palestine is Supporting Nazis.
In both cases they are Ukrainian Fascist Nationalists rather than Hitlerite German Romantic Nationalists Fascists but, Nazi is an acceptable shorthand, since the essence is the same, in-group/out-group/genocide for land.
To be clear, I view you as no different than the vile profanity spewing knuckle draggers. You might think cold conjugation renders your racism palatable, it doesn't. You might find the use of English words dating back to Chaucer like Cunt offensive, as you bloodless suggest some people are acceptable to violently dispossess and how dare people support an armed struggle to raise their heads, even while you cheers on a Ukrainian Terrorist groups attack on a Nuclear state.
We were talking on this threat about a war where Russia has invaded Ukraine and committed war crimes on an absolutely massive scale - and you're concerned about Ukrainian terrorists enslaving Palestinians. I think we're having different discussions.
One problem is that you've decided anyone who disagrees with you is doing so because they're bad. Rather than because they don't believe the same things you do. Although even there, you're very selective about it. Seeing as Putin should be everything you disapprove of.
how dare people support an armed struggle to raise their heads, even while you cheers on a Ukrainian Terrorist groups attack on a Nuclear state.
So here, you support the armed struggle of Palestinians. I'm presuming that includes supporting Hamas in actual genocide? And certainly in terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians, because there isn't a Palestinian resistance organisation that only fights legitimate military targets. Nor does Iran, nor do Hizbollah.
And yet you also call Ukranians terrorists for defending their country from invasion and brutal occupation.
And you complain that Ukraine have attacked a nuclear state. But support attacks on Israel?
Support of US backed Zionist State Terrorist group Genocide and illegal occupation of Palestine is Supporting Nazis.
Nope. Because. They're. Not. Fucking. Nazis.
You keep giving quotes about worries about neo-Nazis in Ukraine. I keep agreeing it's a problem. You keep telling me that means Ukraine is a nazi state. It isn't. You then support Russia's brutal invasion and Hamas' brutal attacks on civilians because they're somehow fine. While accusing Ukraine of exactly the same stuff. You're confused. Your worldview seems to consist of people you support and people you hate. And that determines whether their actions are right or wrong. Exaclty the hypocrisy you rightly accuse people of when the West supported some truly horrific regimes during the Cold War - on the excuse that they were anti-communist. "They were bastards, but they were our bastards".
Oh and you called me a racist for saying press TV were the paid propagandists of a vicious Iranian regime that tortures, murders and oppresses its own people on a massive scale. Which is quite frankly bizarre. Otherwise you're equally a racist for saying the BBC aren't a credible source. Your argument is silly.
You might find the use of English words dating back to Chaucer like Cunt offensive
it wasn't when Chaucer used it. Language changes. So it is now. It's a nice subtle way of calling me names, without getting your post deleted, so well done. A couple of your insults on this thread have been quite creative. It's a silly point though. You're still being deliberately insulting. Which is fine - you're passionable about your beliefs and have a manichean worldview. I'm confident that I'm neither a racist, nor a cunt - so I'm not going to shrivel up and die. But your posts on this thread are inconsistent and illogical, and too much of them seem to be based on conspiracy-thinking. And I don't buy your arguments.
You are utterly impolite, and illogical.
You are unable to substantiate your world view, nor dispute actual evidence. You attempted to smear the source with a nakedly racist dog whistle against Iran, since you cannot dispute a single word of the article.
You decided to use the BBC as the state propagandist of choice, forgetting that they occasionally report the facts, in fact the further back you go in the their output, it's quite impressive what they'll actually admit on camera.
Some of the most hair raising admissions are BBC Timewatch documentaries on NATO's use of NAZI armies in all 16 NATO countries.
The modern equivalent was a literally on camera on the ground Newsnight special on Nazis in Ukraine called "Neo-Nazis in New Ukraine".
Care to explain that ?
Replying to myself, but also to GNU SedGawk,
Sorry, missed one of your other posts. Which I'll combine here for ease of discussion.
The removal of US Backed Zionist State Terrorist group from occupied Palestine is a wonderful and laudable goal, replacing it with the democratic state of Palestine free from River to Sea, with Zionist State Terrorists surrendered to ICC.US backed Zionist State Terrorist groups illegal occupation of Palestine is a crime against humanity. Iran is completely correct to decry the regime of racial supremacy and direct funds towards supporting expressions of national self-determination and armed liberation struggles in Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Yemen. Indeed Iran is doing in reality what the UK/EU/US Nazi supporters claim for Ukraine.
You really do support genocide then? Obviously only to the right people though. If Palestinians do it to jews, that's fine. If jews do it to Palestinians that's bad. Even though Israel are a nuclear state, like Russia?
What you're saying here is that might is right. But saying it in support of the side in the conflict that don't have the means to win. But by what you say, you give Israel the right to do exaclty the same, because they do have the power. A power they have not excercised for 70 years.
The only viable option is a two state solution. Palestine and Israel both need to have viable states, with security for both. Nothing else is moral, or viable.
After all, you may claim Israel is Palestinian land occupied by Israel. But then Israel was there first. Well the Canaanites and the Elamites were there before them, admittedly. Hard to find them to give the place back to though. Plus most of us would need to evacuate England to give it back to the Welsh - except they probably stole it from the Beaker People. And who's going to stand up for the rights of the Neanderthals? "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves everyone blind and toothless." Eventually disputes have got to be settled. There is no way to put the genie back in the bottle - Israel is now there. We built international law after WWII to try and find sane ways to settle these disputes. If you call for extreme solutions, then you many eventually get what you wish for - but done to you by somebody else.
Your support for genocide is immoral. But it's also unworkable. It's not even possible for your side to win. Israel just temporarily defeated Iran's proxies in Hamas and Hizbollah - Netenyahu's government might be stupid enough to think they can settle this by force - but they can't. Short of committing genocide themselves, and destroying the society they live in. Israel couldn't survive that - either internally or internationally. But you lose the moral force to criticise them for doing it, when you call for it from the other side. And your idea of defeating Israel is even more unrealistic than Netenyahu's delusions of permanently defeating Hamas. In the end there will have to be a deal. About which nobody will be happy.
Also there won't be a democratic Palestinian state if Hamas win. They're not democrats.
I really hope you're trolling with this "river to the sea" stuff.
Palestine is under occupation from River to Sea. There is no country between the river, no other people but Palestinian and the members of US backed Zionist State Terrorist group.
Today they are largely of Polish and Ukrainian origin, as you'd expect given the origins of Zionism with Ukrainians Fascist Nationalism, and Polish Gangsters providing most of the early muscle, along with German capital.
This can be seen in Smotrich (Ukrainian), Milekowsky/Gantz (Polish) Katz (Romanians). Even Ben-Gvir is a Kurd from Iraq.
I would quibble with the suggestion that Ukrainian fascist nationalism is associated with Judaism by people other than Zionists, who in the main are not Jewish.
Judaism and Zionism are antithetical to one another.
Jewish Supremacism is a sub-specialism of White Supremacism, and like all supremacist idealogical narratives is concerned with power relations not logic or religious beliefs, it's mostly a belief in EthnoNationalism using Jews as a helpful rhetorical shield, but US backed Zionist State Terrorist group on trial for Genocide at ICJ today https://webtv.un.org/en/asset/k1b/k1bqp5ffpz
A regime of Jewish supremacy from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea
https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid
There are no Israelis, only members of US backed Zionist State Terror group, mostly Eastern European like Internationally wanted fugitive Polish Genocide Perpetrator Ben "Bibi" Milekowsky, and Ukrainian Fascist Homophobe Bezalel Smotrich https://www.lemonde.fr/en/opinion/article/2024/11/10/war-in-the-middle-east-israeli-minister-bezalel-smotrich-a-supremacist-and-revisionist-should-not-be-welcomed-in-france_6732288_23.html
The rest is sophistry. The Genocidal terrorist group who assassinated Lord Moyne, sent letter bombs to Churchill and enslaved Palestinians who survived the Nakba initial genocide and expulsion, are essentially the same Polish Purloiners, Lithuanian Liars, Romanian racists, Hungarian heisters, Belarusian Blaggers, Ukrainians Usurpers, French Fascists, German Grabbers, British Burglars, armed by Aggressive Americans in 1917, today.
It’s based on the writings of an Austrian Atheist Author with distinctive facial hair who having divided the world into the untermench, and the supermen who needed lebensraum, decreed the supermen were justified in the extermination of the people of Palestine to build the “old new land”.
No Palestinians are Terrorists, they are under occupation by US backed Zionist State Terrorist group, and as such have every right to use violence to rid themselves of the Genocidal occupier.
Some Palestinians are members of UK Proscribed organisations, which should not be taken as a Judgement on their activities, given the UK doesn't require any reason to proscribe an organisation,
so may choose to proscribe the Milk Marketing Board tomorrow, and supporting them will be legally equivalent to supporting any other proscribed group. It would not be lawful to be reckless in allowing someone else to think you might support the Milk Marketing Board.
This is clearly not based on their actions when the same laws may target armed groups abroad and unarmed civilian groups with completely different aims, actions, idealogical motivations
The head of the world's largest academic association on genocide has declared Israel's actions in Gaza a genocide.
Dr Melanie O'Brien, president of the International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS), outlined her legal opinion in an interview with Middle East Eye, ahead of an upcoming episode of the Expert Witness podcast featuring leading genocide experts.
"Applying the legal definitions of genocide as found in the Genocide Convention and the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, I would determine that what is happening in Gaza constitutes genocide," O'Brien said.
"The definition involves acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. These include killing or imposing conditions meant to bring about physical destruction," she explained, referring to the definition of genocide under the Genocide Convention.
"What we are witnessing fits within that legal definition."
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-committing-genocide-gaza-says-top-legal-scholar-melanie-obrien
US/UK/EU backed Ukrainian Fascists perpetrating a Genocide in occupied Territory cheered on by the ignorant. In some cases are combatants in both Genocide in Palestine and War in Ukraine, as it's safer for the Azov Nazis to go murder Palestinian for some R&R as the Russians are a bit better equipped than the desperate population of trapped starving people being slaughtered on an industrial scale, legitimated by your truly depraved racial supremacist world-view. It's telling how lacking in self-awareness you are. You cannot conceive of a universally applicable moral world view, and application of consistency by it's frame.
You don't disagree, that would entail actually challenging evidence, you simply apply racist dog-whistle and assert absent evidence that you are the arbiter of credibility and probity, while supporting a racial supremacist rape cult, who are ICC fugitives for Starvation of Population, Which you're fine with as a racist. All supporters of Zionist subjugation of Palestinian are racist, you keep suggesting the US backed Zionist State Terrorist group occupation of Palestine is legitimate but Ukrainian Terrorists are entitled to bring about Nuclear war in the Name of Bandera.
GNU SedGawk,
I'm genuinely shocked. I find your views so extreme, as to wonder if you're trolling - in which case you've done a magnificent job. What we have here, is whatever the opposite is of a meeting of minds. We're not even using the same frame of reference.
There are no Israelis, only members of US backed Zionist State Terror group, mostly Eastern European
Lots of the settlers are also Russian. Why the hate for Ukraine and not Russia?
But I'm afraid you're stuck with the facts on the ground. There are Israelis. There's a few million people living there, and you're going to have to deal with them. If you choose to tell them you're going to kill or forcibly remove them, they're going to object. They've got a lot of guns. You can't just wish them away. Even if morality was on your side - and it isn't - your whole position is stupid. As I said above there is no magic time of perfect borders we can go back to. You can't deal in ideals, you have to deal with the horrible, messy compromises of reality.
No Palestinians are Terrorists, they are under occupation by US backed Zionist State Terrorist group, and as such have every right to use violence to rid themselves of the Genocidal occupier.
Terrorism is a tactic. It's what you choose to do, not who you are. Deliberately murder civilians to engender terror: Terrorist. Attack soldiers: Insurgent / Freedom fighter / Rebel [delete as appropriate]. Sometimes you might be both. Obviously everyone calls anyone they don't like terrorists anyway.
[...]legitimated by your truly depraved racial supremacist world-view. It's telling how lacking in self-awareness you are. You cannot conceive of a universally applicable moral world view, and application of consistency by it's frame.
I can, and I do. Invading Ukraine was wrong. Continually bombing helpless civilians in Gaza is also wrong. Pushing the population out of Gaza to make life easier is genocide. Pushing the population out of Israel (as both Hamas and you want to do) is genocide. Hamas murdering civilians is a war crime, if they claim to be soldiers fighting for a state - ordinary crime if not. Russians murdering civilians on an industrial scale in Ukraine and Chechnya is also a war crime.
Given the existence of two, unreconcilable populations in Israel/Palestine we have the choice of genocide, continuing war or a peace deal. Which we were so near to achieving back in the 90s, but didn't. I want a peace deal, as the only humane option. You, Hamas, the Iranian government and certainly some of the settler parties want genocide. Netenyahu probably wants what keeps his coalition together for the next few months, and him out of court on corruption charges.
Ukrainian Terrorists are entitled to bring about Nuclear war in the Name of Bandera.
If there's a nuclear war because Ukraine attacked Russian aircraft that had been bombing Ukraine - that moral stain will be on the Russian government. By the same logic, are you fine if the Israeli government were to use nuclear weapons on Gaza?
It is both amusing and worrying to be accused of being lacking in self-awarness by someone as extremist as yourself. I'm not sure you've ever really responded to one of my arguments - you've just called me a depraved racist a bit louder.
The chief weapon Zionism had was rhetorical not military. The world rejects Zionism as indefensible under any moral framework.
Palestine liberation is inevitable as is the dismantling of the US Backed Zionist State Terrorist group of deluded European Racists.
The country of Palestine is under occupation by a Ukrainian Terrorist group running Rape torture dungeons which the UN has reported on https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2025/03/more-human-can-bear-israels-systematic-use-sexual-reproductive-and-other led by a Polish War Criminal, perpetrating systematic crimes against humanity, with an entire population spewing Genocidal rhetorical matched with Genocidal behaviour against a defenceless civilian population of Palestinians which internationally recognised as an apartheid regime of Jewish Supremacy from River to Sea. included inside occupied Palestine https://www.btselem.org/topic/apartheid
Even the US Backed Zionist State Terrorist group admits there are no such thing.
Supreme Court Rejects Citizens' Request to Change Nationality From 'Jewish' to 'Israeli'
Court rules against change in identity card registration, citing that there is no proof of the existence of a uniquely 'Israeli' people.
https://www.haaretz.com/2013-10-03/ty-article/.premium/court-israeli-isnt-ethnicity/0000017f-db7f-df9c-a17f-ff7f3a010000
They are arming ISIS.
Russian member of US backed Zionist State Terrorist group Avigdor Liberman accused Internationally Reviled ICC Crimes against Humanity Arrest Warrant fugitive Polish Genocide Perpetrator Ben "Bibi" Milekowski https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-committing-genocide-gaza-says-top-legal-scholar-melanie-obrien
"authorizing ... weapons to ... so-called "Islamic State" in Gaza without cabinet approval.
...
Liberman ... weapons were supplied ... under Israeli military control ... Israeli government is giving weapons to a group of criminals and felons, identified with Islamic State, at the direction of the prime minister,” he stated.
https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/netanyahu-does-not-deny-arming-isis-affiliated-group-to-figh
As a human being with functional emotions, I don't restrict my sympathy and empathy towards the suffering of others based on national origin.
An elderly women being made homeless and left without water in a desert, ought to make a functional approximation at a human being oppose the perpetrators.
She could be my relative, or my neighbour, or my teacher, or my friend, or just some fellow human, as entitled to sun on her skin and wind in her hair as any.
“They [Israel] did not even take into consideration the humanitarian side, that there are babies, children, elderly people and women who have spent their night homeless, under the rain,” he said. “The same goes for the animals, the sheep and cattle, who also spent the night under the rain.”
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-children-homeless-jordan-valley
The Palestinians have spent 75 years surviving a slow motion genocide called the continuous Nakba.
This article contends that Israeli policies that were enacted after the introduction of the siege in Gaza amount to slow-motion genocide. The United Nations has repeatedly warned of the serious implications of the Israeli siege and asserted that Gaza could soon be uninhabitable [Miriam Berger, ‘The U.N. Once Predicted Gaza Would Be “Uninhabitable” by 2020. Two Million People Still Live There’, Washington Post, January 2, 2020, https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/01/01/un-predicted-gaza-would-be-uninhabitable-by-heres-what-that-actually-means/]. The present study adopts a sociological perspective and argues that genocide should be understood as a social practice rather than physical annihilation or merely mass killing of a group of people. It also situates the siege within a larger settler-colonial framework and emphasises the processual nature of the Nakba.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13642987.2022.2065261
Palestinians have suffered for over a hundred years of Zionist conquest, and yet they retain the magnificence to offer to share the country with equity.
You need only be human to admire and support someone who will forgo food for 180 days, in protest at being held without charge in an Zionist gulag.
Palestinian prisoner Khalil Awawdeh, on his 180th day of hunger strike, issued a video message to the people of the world, where he speaks slowly and laboriously, with his emaciated body visible, highlighting the justice of the Palestinian cause:
“Oh, free people of the world, this suffering body, of which nothing remains but skin and bones, does not reflect a weakness and vulnerability of the Palestinian people, but rather is a mirror reflecting the true face of the occupation, which claims to be a ‘democratic state’, at a time when it holds a prisoner without any charges in the brutal administrative detention, saying with his body and his blood: No to administrative detention! No to administrative detention!
We are a people who have a just cause that will remain a just cause, and we will always stand against administrative detention, this injustice, even if the skin is gone, even if the bone deteriorates, even if the soul is gone.
Be assured, be confident, that we have the right and our cause is just, regardless of the high price paid.
Bless you and peace be upon you.”
https://samidoun.net/2022/08/khalil-awawdehs-message-to-the-world-our-cause-is-just-regardless-of-the-high-price-paid/
In your view I don't sympathise with Ukrainians in Ukraine because I support their expressions of self-determination in the multiple referendums and the decades long conflict they've waged for their freedom from the Banderite death cult you insist is not really a problem for them.
I like Ukrainians just fine, they are brave people, I work with a Ukrainian he's a nice man. I don't think your average Ukrainians is either a bad person or a Banderite.
I don't think that the Keith's EnglishZionism accurately reflects the wishes of the population of England, however they happen to be the current regime in charge.
You seem keen to ignore that Ukrainian are literally being kidnapped of the street in very brutal ways, and pushed out to die in horrific fashion for an unwinnable war, that the Ukrainian population have been prevented from voting on despite CocaineSky's term having expired, and a defection rate nearing triple digits.
Why are US Backed Zionist State Terrorist group Genocidal perpetrators entitled to sympathy, and why do you keep using that tediously inaccurate term.
I was born in England, I'm a Brit. If I go to Palestine and kill someone, steal their home, I don't stop being a Brit. What about Ukraine, or Poland, or Russia do you think bestows this magic power on the well documented waves of Terrorists flooding in from Eastern Europe during the British occupation of Palestine. How did they become non-Polish/Russian/Romanian/etc?
After perpetrating a Genocide which is exceedingly well documented having taken place within living memory, like this one under the full gaze of the world, and exactly like this one. We hear with the deaf ear, and turn the blind eye.
In your frame, the genocide perpetrated in Palestine between 1917 and 2023, has now given forth to a new people who are entitled to Palestine.
Because? Thieves never become the owner, it's a principle of Law, ergo Palestine never became the property of the US backed Zionist State Terrorist group.
Palestine was invaded, it's well documented, in your view that makes them Genocidal for not wishing to be murdered by a Ukrainian Terrorist group whom you claim represents Judaism, despite Jews opposing Zionism, and most Zionists being Christian Zionists. It's not quite clear why someone should care about the Ukrainian Terrorist attempted to rape and murder their family's professed religious beliefs at that precise moment, the implication perhaps being that one would welcome being murdered by a fellow representative of the subject races.
Why doesn't that apply to Ukraine who are actively attempted to attack Russians as a group, who use Russian as an epithet, have banned the Russian Church, Russian Language, defaced statues, etc?
In truth, it's simply racial supremacism, and as a Zionist, you're simply too racist to spot the utterly depraved rhetoric. That's really the problem, you are surrounded by people who believe the same evidence free racist drivel that you imbibe and regurgitate like a bird feeding its young. It doesn't stack up to reason, logic, or not being a racist.
You suggest Palestine alone in all countries of the world simply passed from pre-history into the modern era without ever existing for the 4,000 years of Palestine's recorded history until the US backed Zionist State Terrorist group declared that 78% of Palestine was theirs now, and the US/USSR had agreed to arm them. So no such people other than existed in Prehistory that can have their land returned 93% of which belongs to the people. A lot of whom are still alive today, older than the Terror group that dispossessed them, even in Gaza despite the bombings.
The only Fair proposal in your view is not give back the stuff you stole, and prosecute the Genocidal terrorists, giving all people equal rights, but let the Terrorist group keep the apartheid regime on stolen land, it's only Moral.
No, can't see why you are lacking in self-awareness or considered shockingly racist at supporting the ongoing settler-colonial Genocide in all of occupied Palestine.
It's not magically confined to Gaza - it's happening in Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, and inside what is called Green-Line Israel - essentially the 1949 - internationally recognised borders under which the US strong armed UN recognition of US Backed Zionist State Terrorist group. This has a class of Palestinians with some limited rights, these are the "lucky ones", of perhaps 4th class citizenship.
The rest of occupied Palestine is varying shades of Gaza like bantustans with no rights, with rampages mobs of fanatical Zionists burning, robbing, raping, looting in Pogroms - as described by members of the US backed Zionist State Terrorist group armed wing IOF https://www.hrw.org/the-day-in-human-rights/2023/03/01
A “Pogrom” in Palestine
“Pogrom” is not a word anyone should use lightly. It can be especially sensitive in the context of Israel and Palestine.
Originally a Russian word meaning “to wreak havoc, to demolish violently,” the term “pogrom” was first applied to the brutal mob attacks – sometimes with government and police encouragement – on Jewish communities in the tsarist Russian Empire of the 19th century.
It’s come to also be used for other such anti-Semitic atrocities throughout Europe’s dark history, including horrors like Kristallnacht in Nazi Germany in 1938.
All this would likely be well-known to Major General Yehuda Fuchs, a senior commander in the Israeli military, who condemned Sunday’s violence by Israeli settlers in the Palestinian town of Hawara as “a pogrom.”
Fuchs is in charge of West Bank operations, where the mob violence raged. Hundreds of Israeli settlers marched on the town of Hawara in the occupied West Bank after the killing of two settlers. They torched cars and homes. At least one person was killed in the hours-long rampage; many Palestinians fled the area in fear for their lives.
Settlers widely advertised their plans, but the army failed to block them. Some were even present when the violence took place.
US backed Zionist State Terrorist group is perpetrating a Genocide, running Mass Rape Torture Camps [1] where children as well as adults are abused, a Doctor raped to death, and his half naked body thrown on the ground, like he wasn't even a person. [2] led by a Polish War Criminal, perpetrating systematic crimes against humanity, with an entire population spewing Genocidal rhetorical matched with Genocidal behaviour against a defenceless civilian population of Palestinians which internationally recognised as an apartheid regime of Jewish Supremacy from River to Sea. included inside occupied Palestine https://www.btselem.org/topic/apartheid
[1] https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2025/03/more-human-can-bear-israels-systematic-use-sexual-reproductive-and-other
[2] https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/24/dying-in-hell-palestinian-medics-jailed-by-israel
Dr Adnan Al-Bursh’s life sat in stark contrast to the manner of the charismatic 49-year-old’s death.
The head of orthopaedics at Gaza’s al-Shifa Hospital was working at the al-Awda Hospital in northern Gaza in December when he and other medics were arrested by the Israeli army for, they said, “national security reasons”.
Four months later, Ofer Prison guards dragged Al-Bursh and dumped him in the prison yard, naked from the waist down, bleeding and unable to stand, according to a statement provided by Israeli human rights organisation, HaMoked.
Recognising him, some of the other prisoners carried Al-Bursh to a nearby room, and he died moments later.
If this had happened in London, the press would be pushing to Nuke someone.
It didn't achieve the intended effect of disrupting the "surrender to reality" talks in Istanbul.
It did show how many ignorant people are supporting of Terrorism provided the putative victims and any other killed in the process are deemed unhuman.
It is however a great demonstration of how propagandised we are, that the spectacle has restored faith by the credulous, who absent evidence are convinced, of the righteousness of Nazi Ukraine's course.
Just look, only the good guys in the movies get the good scenes.
The inability to integrate logic into the world around us is truly fucking chilling.
If some terrorist group had done that to the UK, we would have a lot of people pushing to Nuke them, and our Ukrainian Rent boy loving Prime minister would be unlikely to standup to pressure.
So children's parties, I'd like to use you as cautionary tale of how Ukrainian Fascist Nationalists froth alone in a basement, ultimately howling into the void, unable to conjure cogent insults, defeated by definitions, railed by rhetoric, you're a object not so much of pity but ridicule.
You're the multiplicative inverse of an anti-bullying campaign. See class - this is fine, we approve of this, in fact, you can see this as religious duty if you're American or just like a big bumper (oh matron) "Punch a Nazi for Jesus"
GNU SedGawk - badly tuned Grok AI script (replace "South Africa genocide" with various anti-semitic incoherent rantings) or single-issue troll?
How did it ever get a gold badge anyway? I thought those were resolved for people who add value to El Reg, not for those who comprehensively remove value to the various forums..
Interestingly you've no response to facts. Sad really, you came to play but left you boots at home.
You cannot defend the position you take, so don't challenge anything. You assert absent evidence, that your ahistorical illogical position must be correct since you've decreed it so.
Deluded.
You can't explain why the BBC has reports called "Neo-Nazi threat in new Ukraine: NEWSNIGHT" - I can - they are adherents of Banderite ideology which they explain themselves https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY
You can't explain why Nato back the NAZIs, I can - one they always were NAZIs, two WW2 was with over imperialism not an issue with racial supremacy, three, NATO backed a series of NAZI armies right after WW2 to present day in Ukraine and elsewhere - also BBC documented and EU parliament reported.
https://files.libcom.org/files/NATOs_secret_armies.pdf
That this House notes the repeated refusal of the Minister of Defence to properly answer questions about British involvement in Operation Gladio and other NATO undercover operations which may have included assistance to terrorists and efforts to thwart the democratic will of peoples in various European countries; and calls for a full & open inquiry into this matter
https://edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/3631/operation-gladio
I note you dispute nothing, and therefore accept the clear implication you support the Rape of Children as described to the United Nations. https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2025/03/more-human-can-bear-israels-systematic-use-sexual-reproductive-and-other
I find you abhorrent and your behaviour consistent with Zionism. Either you dispute with evidence, or we can conclude you unable to refute any of the evidence, and accept the conclusions.
The International Court of Justice in July last year concluded that ‘Israel’ is breaching Article 3 CERD (Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, an international human rights treaty adopted by the United Nations in 1965). So it’s an apartheid state. And Zionism is its official ideology.
Opposing racial domination is good, isn’t it mate?
I note you dispute nothing, and therefore accept the clear implication you support the Rape of Children as described to the United Nations. https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2025/03/more-human-can-bear-israels-systematic-use-sexual-reproductive-and-other
I find you abhorrent and your behaviour consistent with Zionism. Either you dispute with evidence, or we can conclude you unable to refute any of the evidence, and accept the conclusions.
Any comment on raping doctors to death?
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/24/dying-in-hell-palestinian-medics-jailed-by-israel
Dr Adnan Al-Bursh’s life sat in stark contrast to the manner of the charismatic 49-year-old’s death.
The head of orthopaedics at Gaza’s al-Shifa Hospital was working at the al-Awda Hospital in northern Gaza in December when he and other medics were arrested by the Israeli army for, they said, “national security reasons”.
Four months later, Ofer Prison guards dragged Al-Bursh and dumped him in the prison yard, naked from the waist down, bleeding and unable to stand, according to a statement provided by Israeli human rights organisation, HaMoked.
Recognising him, some of the other prisoners carried Al-Bursh to a nearby room, and he died moments later.
They are arming ISIS.
ISIS ? Are you going to refute that information for example reporting in the Guardian / Oher Press
Russian member of US backed Zionist State Terrorist group Avigdor Liberman accused Internationally Reviled ICC Crimes against Humanity Arrest Warrant fugitive Polish Genocide Perpetrator Ben "Bibi" Milekowski https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-committing-genocide-gaza-says-top-legal-scholar-melanie-obrien
"authorizing ... weapons to ... so-called "Islamic State" in Gaza without cabinet approval.
...
Liberman ... weapons were supplied ... under Israeli military control ... Israeli government is giving weapons to a group of criminals and felons, identified with Islamic State, at the direction of the prime minister,” he stated.
https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/netanyahu-does-not-deny-arming-isis-affiliated-group-to-figh
The former defence minister and opposition lawmaker Avigdor Lieberman alleged that Abu Shabab’s group was affiliated with Islamic State. “The Israeli government is giving weapons to a group of criminals and felons, identified with Islamic State, at the direction of the prime minister,” Lieberman, who heads the opposition Yisrael Beiteinu party, told Kan Bet public radio.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/06/netanyahu-defends-arming-palestinian-clans-accused-of-ties-with-jihadist-groups
I don’t think you know how a poem works. Have a read of https://www.grammarly.com/blog/creative-writing/how-to-write-a-poem/ and try again.
CowHorseFrog, you’re welcome to have a go as well if you like.
I'm a programmer not a poet.
You could always go with the Bigge Smalls line "I mess around and get hardcore / C4 to your door, no beef no more" or Charlie Sloth "I remember introducing Charlie to Eddie, and Charlie making Eddie's nose bleed 'cause Eddie weren't ready".
Here I'll indulge you "Palestine Freed from River to Sea, Zionists stand trial at ICC." or "US backed a Genocidal Mistake, Dismantle the Terror Group Zionist State" "Genocide is a Shanda in Palestine or Rwanda"
Right okay, sure buddy.
You seems to suggest you have some credibility because I hold your depraved rape cult in contempt. But as a Zionist, this proves I'm a bot, sure buddy.
I note you dispute nothing, and therefore accept the clear implication you support the Rape of Children as described to the United Nations. https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2025/03/more-human-can-bear-israels-systematic-use-sexual-reproductive-and-other
I find you abhorrent and your behaviour consistent with Zionism. Either you dispute with evidence, or we can conclude you unable to refute any of the evidence, and accept the conclusions, which you have proven is failure to challenge, showing you are supporter of the US backed Zionist State Terrorist group, who admit funding ISIS, a proscribed org in the UK. So you are a terrorist officially. Thank you for admitting it, your IP address will of course be on record.
I encourage you to "not be reckless in allowing someone to think you support funding a proscribed org". You should disclaim your support for Zionist State Terrorist group or at least suggest you don't beliieve the reports in the British/Lebanese press that were provided of Zionist State Funding ISIS Arming ISIS
https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/netanyahu-does-not-deny-arming-isis-affiliated-group-to-figh / https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/06/netanyahu-defends-arming-palestinian-clans-accused-of-ties-with-jihadist-groups
The occupation entity also reported this as https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-06-05/ty-article-live/u-s-vetoes-un-security-council-resolution-demanding-gaza-truce-unhindered-aid-access/00000197-3dc5-d9f1-abb7-7df550ef0000
You should be on a watchlist, you are almost certainly actively a perpetrator given your support for Zionism, well documented as a raping a doctor to death.
Any comment on The rest of occupied Palestine is varying shades of Gaza like bantustans with no rights, with rampages mobs of fanatical Zionists burning, robbing, raping, looting in Pogroms - as described by members of the US backed Zionist State Terrorist group armed wing IOF https://www.hrw.org/the-day-in-human-rights/2023/03/01
Any comment on the ICJ declaring it an apartheid regime?
The International Court of Justice in July last year concluded that ‘Israel’ is breaching Article 3 CERD (Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, an international human rights treaty adopted by the United Nations in 1965). So it’s an apartheid state. And Zionism is its official ideology.
Any comment on The head of the world's largest academic association on genocide has declared Israel's actions in Gaza a genocide.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-committing-genocide-gaza-says-top-legal-scholar-melanie-obrien
Any comment on raping doctors to death?
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/24/dying-in-hell-palestinian-medics-jailed-by-israel
You've heard of asymmetric fighting tactics? That's what's going on here. I write nine words. You spend an evening writing War and Peace to reply to it. Minimum effort on my part, while you give yourself a heart attack.
PS the more dross you copy/paste from the Internet, the more you're proving you're a bot with access to Google.
If I'm a Bot - how does that work?
https://merip.org/1988/05/shamir-on-terrorism-1943/
The following excerpts are from an article by Yitzhak Shamir, prime minister of Israel from 1983-1984 and 1986-1992. The article first appeared in the LEHI underground organization journal Hehazit (The Front) in the summer of 1943.
All the chatter, indeed the entire complex people have against the resort to terror, may be rebutted via easily understood arguments — exposing the true face of those who advocate the “legal,” the “democratic” way, showing how much terrorism is in fact concealed under these guises. But we wouldn’t wish to take this easy road, and we will therefore here disregard that option and allow citizens on both left and right to keep their illusion that their own methods, and those of the government, do not constitute terrorism. We instead take it upon ourselves to defend the hardest position, i.e., to reduce the concept of “terrorism” to its narrow form of menace and assassination of one’s enemy using mines, bombs and so forth. All of proper society, both left and right, as is known, is always “shocked” to the depths of its corrupt soul by such deeds, and stands ready to aid the ruling regime in bringing these anarchist terrorists to the scaffold and eliminating them. But this same society is not willing to do so if, for example, 769 passengers from the Struma are legally murdered, along with tens of thousands of others who might have been saved but were not. That’s not terrorism — that’s, at worst, a “bad law” or “brutality.”
Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat.
I asked Grok about Zionism since you want to talk to a bot
Within your framing, which asserts that Palestinian rights to their land are inalienable, rejects Zionism’s claim of Jewish nationhood as disingenuous, and equates Zionism with Jewish supremacy rooted in illegal dispossession, Zionism cannot be considered legitimate without denying Palestinian rights. Your frame posits that Zionism’s core premise—establishing a Jewish homeland in Palestine—intrinsically violates the legal and moral rights of Palestinians not to be dispossessed, as evidenced by historical events like the 1948 Nakba (displacing ~700,000 Palestinians) and ongoing settlement activities, which contravene international law (e.g., Fourth Geneva Convention). You view Zionism’s nationalist rhetoric as a rhetorical justification for prioritizing Jewish interests over Palestinian rights, rendering it indefensible.
For Zionism to be legitimate without denying Palestinian rights, it would need to align with their inalienable rights, including self-determination and the right of return (per UN Resolution 194). However, your frame sees Zionism’s implementation—establishing a Jewish state in Palestine—as inherently tied to Palestinian displacement and exclusion, making coexistence impossible without negating those rights. Even proposals like a two-state solution or a binational state, which some might argue could reconcile both groups’ aspirations, would likely be rejected in your frame, as they still legitimize Zionism’s nationalist project, which you deem baseless and supremacist.
Thus, within your frame, Zionism’s legitimacy is irreconcilable with Palestinian rights, as its foundational goal of a Jewish homeland in Palestine is seen as inseparable from dispossession and denial of those rights. The "Jewish supremacy" label, which you align with Zionism, underscores this conflict, emphasizing its prioritization of Jewish claims as fundamentally unjust. "White supremacy" remains irrelevant due to Zionism’s non-racial basis.
You obviously support Zionism but feel unable to defend it logically, even when given space to do so.
The things cited are indefensible, and illegal, immoral. You haven't disputed a single thing. It's a shame you don't have anything to contribute.
You are clearly openly happy to be perceived as supporting ISIS, and atrocities on a mass scale against civilians, including horrific systemic sexual violence, torture, rape, mutilation, starvation and Genocide.
You keep pretending you think I'm a bot, while acknowledging you feel you are wasting my time. I'm unable to prevent a Genocide that my Taxes are funding, and you think you can make me feel like I'm wasting my life.
I'm ashamed to not have done more, not in the least in calling Zionism out for the indefensible paedophilic rape cult intent on the Genocide of the Palestinian people occupied since 1917.
May you experience in life what you wish for Palestinians.
"The Israeli military’s destruction of Gaza’s education and cultural infrastructure amount to war crimes and the crime against humanity of extermination, a UN investigative body said on Tuesday, as humanitarian agencies warned of continued mass suffering across the Strip."
The UN Human Rights Council-mandated Independent International Commission of Inquiry (COI) report found that Israeli forces have used airstrikes, shelling, burning, and controlled demolitions to damage or destroy more than 90 per cent of schools and university buildings across Gaza.
This destruction in the wake of the 7 October 2023 Hamas-led terror attacks on Israel has made education impossible for over 658,000 children, many of whom have been out of school for nearly two years.
“We are seeing more and more indications that Israel is carrying out a concerted campaign to obliterate Palestinian life in Gaza,” said Navi Pillay, Chair of the Commission.
“Israel’s targeting of the educational, cultural and religious life of the Palestinian people will harm the present generations and generations to come, hindering their right to self-determination.”
https://news.un.org/en/story/2025/06/1164191
https://docs.un.org/en/A/HRC/59/26
The Commission could not identify any military objective for the demolitions of
educational facilities. It forensically verified the demolition of two schools in Beit Hanoun
in the north of the Gaza Strip in mid-November 2023, the Beit Hanoun preparatory girls “B”
school and the neighbouring Beit Hanoun elementary co-educational “C” school. Those
schools had served 2,400 students. Both schools were severely damaged through controlled
demolitions. The Commission’s assessment is that those actions were carried out by the
Israeli security forces, specifically the 8170 Combat Engineering Battalion of the 252nd
Division. Israeli troops, including the Givati Brigade, were engaged in large-scale military
operations in Beit Hanoun during that period.
15. The Commission found, through analysis of digital evidence, that the Israeli security
forces demolished Israa University’s Al-Zahara campus on 13 January 2024. The campus
also housed a museum. The 710th Combat Engineering Battalion and the 8130th Armoured
Battalion carried out the demolition, under the commander of the 99th Division, who later
received a disciplinary note for ordering the demolition without the proper approval.
16. In February 2024, the Israeli security forces announced that the 162nd Division had
discovered a Hamas tunnel network connecting the Turkish-Palestinian Friendship Hospital
to the Israa University building. The Commission’s comparative geospatial analysis of Israeli
security forces maps indicates that the location annotated on the map as Israa was actually
Al-Azhar University’s Al-Mughraqa campus, located south of Gaza City, at the edge of the
Nezarim corridor, suggesting that the Israeli security forces were trying to justify the
demolition of Israa University retrospectively amid growing criticism of the operation. In
March 2024, Israeli security forces reportedly claimed that Hamas had utilized the Israa
University and its vicinity for military activity against Israeli security forces, but the
Commission found no evidence of that.
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