US to deny visas to foreign officials it says 'censor' social media The US government says it'll refuse visas to foreign officials judged to have censored social media posts of American citizens - a move aimed at countries trying to stem the flow of online misinformation. Virkkunen claimed US sites often block material that is not censored in Europe, such as discussions about euthanasia, and …
No, it's aimed also at Europe because Meta, Google & C. don't like EU rules, and are trying hard to kiill them.
But two things Rubio should think about:
With the CLOUD Act, USA asserted the right to obtain data stored on foreing soil just because it is hosted by US companies - why should other country accept illegal contents made by US citizens and available in EU? And what about FISA allowing US to gather data on everybody who is not USAian? EU should block visas for all these people, and whoever sell services to them, Bezos included (tell him he cannot marry in Venice, and has to go to Las Vegas instead...)
Second: isn't Rubio from a stupid state where a teacher was fired for showing children Michelangelo's David? Werent' the Library of Congress people fired for making available books the Dear Leader and is minions don't like? And let's not talk about Harvard....
Now, who is the real censor?
If someone would post detailed instructions on how to kill Rubio, would he ask them to be removed, or in the name of free speech would ask them to stay available?
"If someone would post detailed instructions on how to kill Rubio, would he ask them to be removed, or in the name of free speech would ask them to stay available?"
And you make a good point, there is no absolute 'free speech', it has to be based on 'reasonableness '. For example, I pitch up outside 1600 Pennsylvania, with an obviously fake cardboard gun (your second amendment notwithstanding), holding a sign that says, ' I believe, and it is my personal opinion, that Trump should be shot'? Could I expect to be arrested?
Of course I will, and I expect to be carted away in handcuffs; but for what crime? What actually have I done wrong? Incitement? Have I induced others to shoot your President? Maybe, but that's their problem. Hove I actually threatened to shoot the President?
Is 'I believe Donald Trump should be shot', and/or saying it out loud, protected as free speech? It does strike me that the answer is, no. OK maybe in an ideal world it would be fine, except we don't live in an ideal world.
You know what, this question is far more complex than it might seem at first glance!
You would certainly be harassed by law enforcement, but as it stands in current court opinions speech becomes threatening when it is made to a specific person or group who are capable of acting on that threat and the speaker has reason to believe that they will take directions from the speaker. You have a sign in public that is not specific. That is protected speech. A crime boss says in the presence of undetlings "I wish the DA would go away." Not protected.
I have some slight sympathy for Rubio's position as regards things like the Apple backdoor case, but quite simply this a'int gonna work, and it will only drive the wedge further. Formerly rock solid allies are now taking a good hard look at their relationship with and dependence on the United States. Something which I feel is long past due.
I suspect the EU is the main thorn in his side. This side of the pond there is more focus on the individual's privacy, data handling and attempts at bringing those who try to ignore this to account.
Although the wheels can turn slowly they have been effective in hitting US tech with fines that are large enough to make them blink.
Still not large enough but that is another matter.
Oh, the irony. The US claims it’s defending “free speech” - but what it’s really defending is the right of American platforms to spread disinformation, including Russian propaganda, into Europe without consequences.
Europe isn’t trying to censor American citizens, it’s enforcing its own laws on content like terrorist material, election interference, and harmful disinfo. Meanwhile, the US bans TikTok over “foreign influence” but cries foul when Europe pushes back on Russian operations hiding behind US tech platforms.
Perhaps it is time to think about banning Fox from cable and satellite platforms. Then concentrate on X and Zuckworld. They are all deep in the MAGA slime.
Carry on boycotting Tesla folks. Eventually, they might get the message that since Trump 2.0, the USA is no longer 'No 1'.
More like No 999,999,999 out of 1,000,000,000. Tesla is one place above the USA.
If you think people are smart enough to NOT want the dark ages, you are naive. Many people want someone to tell them what to do and have the power of life and death over them.
They're all convinced they'll be better off in the new order and not a peasant that gets his head lopped off when he gets too mouthy.
Frankly I hope they get their new order. When their children die five at a time and the baron can do their wives for them, they'll stay out of the way of real people getting ahead at least.
'If you think people are smart enough to NOT want the dark ages, you are naive.'
Where did I imply anything of the sort, or anything at all? It was a straight question, without implication or pre-supposition. You seem to have read into it what you wanted to.
My question to the OP remains: what exactly do they imagine will replace the status quo?
And, we can add: do they imagine it will be any better?
Our wayward poster here and the current US administration would probably fail the following tests, if they ever did them:
That is a lot of pseudo philosophical babble.
In every ranking of free speech and free press, EU countries populate the top positions. The US is not in the top, it comes in at place 57.
The reason the right hates the EU so much is because the EU has the protection of the individual and their freedoms anchored in their charter.
If there is one thing that united the ultra nationalists of the world it is the desire to silence and exterminate all those who differ from their norms.
What Muskiday et al preach is the Feedom to organize Pogroms.
EU and UK are not removing those freedoms.They just sometimes get the balance wrong. At least we talk about balance. First Amendment case law never seems to touch upon the tensions that are inevitable between fundamental rights. And in the US constitution there are no positive obligations imposed upon the state to protect one's freedoms. It's all about what the state itself must no do to you, the individual.
"EU and UK are not removing those freedoms."
Just make that the EU. The whole idea of Brexit was to let government escape adult supervision.
Now we're out in the cold economically with a massively shrunken home market Starmer has no choice but to suck up to the US and hope there are no changes of mind.
I don't know. It seems that the state of US diplomacy has pushed us closer to Europe recently. We're not removing freedoms. We still have the Human Rights Act and we're still bound by the ECHR. We have a strong and independent judiciary who apply the law, but it has its share of problems. I don't accept that Britain is somehow any "worse" than Europe here.
We are already out of the jurisdiction of the ECJ. AFAICS both Labour and Conservatives seem to be thinking of getting rid of the ECHR. Both seem unhappy with the courts keeping them in check. The one came up with the nutty idea of of there being a safe way to intercept E2E encryption and the other tried to use the resulting legislation, onlly to be thwarted by their attempt blowing up in their face. Both seem to be enamoured of the idea of deeding everything and anything to the AI kleptocracy....
And that's before we look at Reform.
CJEU and the primacy of EU law is a very contentious topic. We've managed to resist the Strasbourg ruling on Hirst, which even the most pro-Europe politicians believe to be wrongheaded. I agree with them.
That was 20 years ago, and our failure to implement it has not diminished our courts' deference to Strasbourg case law. A similar CJEU ruling could not be ignored, nor should it.. I think on reflection over its greatly expanded role that wer're better off outside the jurisdiction of that court, even if we're not better off outside the EU.
As for the rest, every government wishes it could conduct its business unfettered. Tony Blair has stated that his biggest regret was the Freedom of Information Act. Fortunately it's Parliament that makes law, not HMG.
"The ranking is likely based on old data and no doubt subject to bias itself."
The link above starts with:
"The World Press Freedom Index (WPFI) is an annual ranking of countries compiled and published by Reporters Without Borders (RSF) since 2002 based upon the non-governmental organization's own assessment of the countries' press freedom records in the previous year. "
So, the ranking is like the Oscars, it's yearly and done by the people doing the actual work.
Its biased by the fact that the victims rank the bullies.
And we know, the bullies are always the real victims. Just ask the current BotUS (Bully of the US).
of the Olympics and World Cup.
Especially as TACO is boasting about having everything now that 'he' has both events.
If anything, countries should make is clear that anyone is at risk of 'being disappeared' when going to the USA. It should become a pariah state much like Russia and N. Korea both of whom has leaders that TACO greatly admires.
It's ok Mr Rubio, your country has been on my DO NOT FLY list for over a decade already. I do not travel to countries who fingerprint innocent visitors at the border like a facist police state.
Right now you're on my how do we remove this chunk of rock from the planet & blast it into the depths of space for the good of humanity list.
I've always called it The Land Of The Fee.
I also never bought into the whole Freedom BS, because they're rather selective with it. That I'm white and speak English (well, almost) does not mean I'm blind to the abuse meted out to those who are not. In my opinion, freedom begins with equal treatment, irrespective of gender, race and other metrics someone has zip personal control over.
Also, I seriously dislike bullies and especially the Orange Blob is that personified, with Tesla boy at a comfortable second place.
"I also never bought into the whole Freedom BS, because they're rather selective with it. That I'm white and speak English (well, almost) does not mean I'm blind to the abuse meted out to those who are not. In my opinion, freedom begins with equal treatment, irrespective of gender, race and other metrics someone has zip personal control over."
100% agree. The rest, I think you are deluded if you think Trump & Musk are worse than their predecessors. Or maybe you have been hypnotised by the media BS.
"The first part of your comment matches my own position, except that I have only ever been in 'transit'."
If you're referring to travelling via multiple flights that "transit" (I'm assuming "transitting" means you don't technically enter the country) via the USA well I thought that was not possible as whenever a plane lands in the USA everyone is deemed to have arrived in the USA and has to go through Border Control whereas in the case of somewhere like Heathrow you can land at one terminal, go via "Flight Connections" to another terminal and then take your next flight all without having been deemed to have entered the UK and without going through Border Control.
Indeed, which highlights the arrogance and egregiousness of the attitude that insists on the fingerprinting of people who are merely 'transiting' between aircraft for destinations in other countries, i.e. have absolutely no intention of 'entering' the US.
Gave up going via the US years ago. Dubai/Singapore offer a far more sane and humane transit experience.
It's ok Mr Rubio, your country has been on my DO NOT FLY list for over a decade already. I do not travel to countries who fingerprint innocent visitors at the border like a facist police state.
You know that the EU is soon going to do that for vistors from outside of the EU?
I have no idea where you are, but just in case you need to know...
AFAIK there are actually EU standards for ID cards, which is why a digital signature placed with one has legal validity in quite a few EU countries as the root cert from which a national CA is set up is actually at EU level.
I know this because I have a national ID card (as a foreigner, and which is getting renewed in a week from now so it'll be interesting to see what changes), and have recently been working with digital signatures.
Digital signatures have four parts: the digital part which you cannot change (and, btw, it contains your national ID which I understand from an audit perspective but renders a national ID number IMHO as hairy for remote identification as the US SSN), and the visible part which has a background, a lefthand side and a righthand one. The righthand side is always from data (from the card and a timestamp) and will take over the whole visible surface if you don't do anything, and the background is usually filled with the Adobe Acrobat logo.
However, you can replace the background quite easily (I replaced with the company logo because I was bored, and now it's a company standard :) ) and you can also create a left side image which can contain anything you want, like a name, job title, physical signature, emoji, whatever - it's just an image. For the curious in possession of a national ID card, it's all described here.
Don't try to use it to fake another name, though, because have you then provide digitally signed evidence of identity fakery :).
To search for trusted national CAs, use the searchable list here. If you were to select "Exclude inactive services" and "Qualified certificate for electronic signature" on the first screen and "Check all" on the second screen, you would have a list of certificate authorities returned, but as far as I can tell none of these CAs are subordinate to an EU CA.
As for Adobe Acrobat, what's important is the PDF being in PDF/A format and online certificate verification. The "this is signed by" graphic or text matters not a jot as anyone could copy that design and nobody can verify the certificate from a hard copy of the PDF. You might as well just include a scan of your signature in the document for tradition's sake.
The "this is signed by" graphic or text matters not a jot as anyone could copy that design
Correct. That's why you can change that bit and it has zero bearing on the electronic validation. It's the digital part that counts and that actually has legal standing.
As for printed docs, I have seen government services where the issued doc comes with a validation code you can enter in a gov maintained website which should give you the same doc on screen as you have as hardcopy. That is used, for instance, for printouts of police registers and confirmation of place of residence. Personally I think the signed electronic ones are easier - they validate as soon as you open them.
Well yes, indeed;
"The US government says it'll refuse visas to foreign officials judged to have censored social media posts of American citizens - a move aimed at countries trying to stem the flow of online misinformation."
it does sort of imply that people will actually want visas to visit the US, and actually want to visit the US, and the refusing of said visas is a sort of punishment. Might actually be an inducement to go elsewhere?
It's quite a turnaround that it's now perceived safer to visit China as a foreigner than the US.
There are cases were people took a wrong turn at the border with Canada, and instead of being told to turn back they were detained by ICE for weeks.
Trump & cronies have turned the US into a pariah state, and to be honest I'm not certain this can ever be repaired. Instead I think all surrounding countries should actually help Trump finally build that wall. I'm certain Europe will spring for the roof, and there will be enough expelled tradesmen to weld the whole thing shut with enthusiasm.
Given that the net result is that that is essentially paid by the US I don't think we'll need to worry much about that.
Alternatively, use the steel from the jet Trump was getting, that's free and the plane would not be suitable to replace Airforce One anyway. Win win :)
> It's ok Mr Rubio, your country has been on my DO NOT FLY list for over a decade already. I do not travel to countries who fingerprint innocent visitors at the border like a facist police state.
Psst, they basically all do that. Combine with facial recognition (stand here and look at the camera, please). Mostly thei do it because of the countries-next-door, but if you're from farther away, going for more relaxative purposes, you still get ensnared. They mostly don't profile their visitors.
It's as though you can't foil fingerprint recognition by wearing readily-available work gloves. (That facial recognition tech, though - looking at you, too, Canada - seems to come straight from the US.)
“It is similarly unacceptable for foreign officials to demand that American tech platforms [bla bla bla] that reaches beyond their authority and into the United States…”
Yep. Because the good ol’ US of A has NEVER tried to apply its laws and whims outside of its borders. No. Never. Not at all.
I’m afraid my opinion of successive American governments (and the brain-dead half of its population) diminishes every day. The current morons running the show are …well …
Ah yes, the same free speech that allows uarseofa-based students to protest for Palestinians and against israel. The same free speech that causes people harm when they criticise the bloated orange fuck-face, his friends, family and policies. The same free speech that the american dictator believes is only his right to use.
The sooner trump, vance, rubio et al die, the better.
As someone above mentioned, the us has been on my no fly list since bush was in office.
"The sooner they die the better" is NOT equal to "I hope they die" which is also NOT equal to "I hope someone kills them" which is also also NOT equal to "Please can someone kill them" which is also also also NOT equal to "I will kill them"
It's all graded. The first one is 100% protected by the 1st amendment in the US and free speech laws in other countries, the 2nd may be going into a grey area, the others are all more and more towards threatening harm or death or inciting violence etc which are wrong and probably illegal in many jurisdictions.
I effectively told friends in the US that I would not visit again while the US government went for social media vetting and other options, and my friends understood.
Now, with the current ICE behaviour at ports of entry, the US is permanently off limits for me. If there *is* a requirement for me to attend a conference or something, I'll travel via Dublin, where TSA preclearance happens on Irish soil, and where you do not end up in some US 'detention facility' for two weeks because some twat with a chip on his shoulder didn't like the look of you... In Dublin you can simply turn around and say "thanks, bye." and abandon your trip safely.
"some twat with a chip on his shoulder didn't like the look of you" I have no doubts that will happen. But in general, I don't want people who hate me and want some form of authoritarianism and censorship in my country. Just wish we could eject the government on that basis.
Given that they dump from a great height on everyone, who bother still inviting them? It's a waste of energy because even if you reach some sort of agreement with them they don't stick to it anyway.
As far as I can tell, the average dictator can be more trusted to stick to any agreement than any of the current US administration, they have squandered not just money but also the one resource that is not easily renewed: trust.
As for what they are actually planning, it appears they're trying to deliberately crash the economy so they can go shopping on the cheap (the idea is to force the Fed to cut rates, something it is presently unwilling to do). That also explains the dump & pump scam of on and off tariffs: it has already been shown that there's a spike in trading activity prior to announcements, so I guess that's how these people create liquidity in preparation for that goal..
Yes, it is all theory. I'm probably wrong, but I wouldn't put it past them.
Indeed, once people realize that the chaos and consequences are part of the plan, both domestically and internationally, it gets easier to understand with less incredulity. The Orange Ignoranus and his annointed advisors that have his ear, aren't as stupid as they are evil.
The previous administration was appallingly corrupt. You must be a CNN listener if you think this one is worse.
There is a terrible corruption across democracies that was possibly always there but things like the Internet and social media have been exposing it. What we are seeing is the thrashing of a cornered beast and it is exceptionally dangerous. The reaction of the beast is to try and exert total control to maintain power. That is starting to do great harm to citizens. We can go one of two ways; to greater freedoms and better democracies or to feudalism and dictatorship with billions dead.
The media is not neutral and just as corrupt and deceitful as government is. If you are an American you live in a system that was purposefully designed to try and limit centralised control but it is being undermined. Don't give it away because of what the media tells you. The governments are so bad you cannot imagine what is done in the name of democracy that is actually just inhumane, bordering insane. Stop being emotionally blown by media and think through the multi-order dependencies. The media and government are masters of psychological manipulation. They are not serving you anymore.
My dear boy, let's just assume you're right. The problem with that is that the whole support framework that keeps you also alive is also being demolished and sucked dry.
When you lose your job (as you will, as the US is driven towards a crash) you will discover there's no "socialist" safety net anymore to keep you going until you find another one, and God help you if there's another pandemic because Hart Island is just about full and your healthcare system has long been an embarrasment. Oh, and you booted out all the competent but foreign people so well done.
Now for the fun part: the asset stripping of Trump & Co relies on dollar value recovery post crash to re-establish value for the things they have bought during that crash. However, as they have pretty much eradicated trust in the US dollar there is a very high likelihood that the usual blackmail with reserve currency holding is no longer going to work. There are quite a few nations and major institutions quietly selling off their US bond holdings, and a selling off of national BONDS is not a good sign - that is an indicator of a major loss of trust.
In other words, the assets that Trump & fellow criminal plan to buy up during the crash may not return to the value that they think they will, and given Trump's flying all over the planet making 'deals' with fellow dictators suggests he's aware of that risk and is thus exporting capital abroad.
Best sell your Trump NFTs right now before they're not worth more than a hollow laugh..
What you're saying makes sense if we exclude the second sentence. The previous administration was corrupt, because all administrations are to some extent. Whether it was appallingly corrupt is a matter of opinion.
You say: "If you are an American you live in a system that was purposefully designed to try and limit centralised control but it is being undermined. Don't give it away because of what the media tells you."
Well, the current administration is clearly all about centralizing control. I don't understand how anyone can fail to see that. We are after all arguing over whether the President can unilaterally declare an emergency and set whatever trade tariffs he likes. Are you actually trying to argue that the liberal media hodge-podge is somehow centralizing power within itself? I literally do not know if this is what you mean. You seem to go from one extreme to another.
Yes, media represent powerful interests and they should not be completely trusted. Of course. Everyone should do their own research. If only. What social media has exposed is how easy it is to manipulate gullibility, because belief is extremely powerful. Our brains are wired up that way. It's social media that has encouraged this race to the bottom, not CNN. Not even FOX. I don't watch or listen to either. I really just get my news from The Register and some independent journalism that I trust. And the only soc-med I now use is LinkdedIn. So, I dunno, am I deluded? I don't think so.
Germany _did_ get one guy who shipped Nazi propaganda to Germany and put him in jail for two years. And what did Germans say? Not “But but but free speech” but “f**k all Nazis”.
And as a general rule, Germany will prosecute you for crimes that take effect in Germany. And in the last four months the opinion “f**k all Americans” has got stronger and stronger.
Being selective is exactly what they say they'll be and is the issue. Diplomatic status may or may not be excluded but a lot of international relations are conducted through visits which will not be on diplomatic passports. That will be disrupted and the disruption will escalate.
Look can we just hurry up and ban everything Meta, Google, X, and every other non-EU based social media site?
If a social media show wants to operate in the EU, then it obeys the laws in full and from the start. If it starts playing games, it's out. Add to that a requirement that those in charge have to reside in the EU, where they can be quickly arrested and made to realise their responsibilities. And suddenly you might get responsible social media... Imagine that?
It will never happen, but god I wish it would...
Maybe. But given a chance they will restrict what Americans say too. Also, as a European/UK citizen I really do not like what is happening here. The UK & Europe was an originator of much that is good and it is being destroyed by the globalist elite who want feudalism back.
> "Today, I am announcing a new visa restriction policy that will apply to foreign nationals who are responsible for censorship of protected expression in the United States. It is unacceptable for foreign officials to issue or threaten arrest warrants on US citizens or US residents for social media posts on American platforms while physically present on US soil,"
Also by the US,
> Tufts international student was snatched off street by ICE after being accused of ‘activities in support of Hamas,’ according to DHS
So, where American officials are *actually* arresting people who made a Thumbs-Up like on a post(??), the US is going to refuse visas to (government?) officials of other sovereign nations because they threaten to do the same for activity that would be *actually* illegal in their country?
Presumably the international student above was engaging in what would otherwise be considered "free speech" for any local citizen. Certainly there have been no charges for crimes, and it came out that the US authorities just didn't-like what was said/done [on social media]. I do believe the courts have ruled in the past that American rights (constitutional, such as the right to free speech) apply to non-citizens who are in the country as well -- such as the right to Life. For example, the United States can't just kill people because they're non-citizens. I hope. (Uhm. I guess there was that episode of the Signalgate airstrike hitting a (civilian?) apartment building because a target went to see his girlfriend. Maybe they are Ok with indiscriminate killing of non-citizens.)
When you invite people into your home that hate you, trash you and have no respect for you and your property you can talk about letting everyone in. I'll think you a fool but will have more respect for your beliefs. Allowing foreigners in that support terrorist groups is not a great idea. That said what is being done specifically in Gaza is genocidal and the US should be ashamed of supporting Israel.
All student visa processing has been suspended and if and when its renewed you will have to hand over the passwords to any social media accounts you control. If there's material in there we don't like then no visa.
(Its not going to work just telling them either. This would be classed as "lying to a Federal official" which will not just lead to the immediate cancellation of any visa but its also a Federal offense that people have gone to jail over.)
I'd guess that other visas will eventually be brought into the net. You're all doubtless aware that CBP can, and do, demand access to your phone at a port of entry.
As for China, ElReg is a bit behind the curve here. Here is the text of a press release issued today by the DoJ:-
"Under President Trump’s leadership, the U.S. State Department will work with the Department of Homeland Security to aggressively revoke visas for Chinese students, including those with connections to the Chinese Communist Party or studying in critical fields. We will also revise visa criteria to enhance scrutiny of all future visa applications from the People’s Republic of China and Hong Kong."
"They're saying no students that hate the US, are criminals or are anti-democracy."
The US has a convicted felon as combined head of government and state and is doing all he can to put himself above the (democratic) law. I don't think any students would be in the same league.
America has some amazing places to visit. Many Americans are genuinely nice people.
However.
Those days are now long gone. The US is currently about as attractive as Haiti or North Korea. There’s no chance of visiting again until the embarrassing stain of Trump and his pals has been thoroughly expunged.
hey loonytoon,
making orange shit bag king != "limiting institutional power"
allowing orange turd to take bribes != "eliminating fraud"
throwing people in jail for comments about orange turd != "promoting free speech"
removing laws to stop descrimination != "ending discrimination"
swimming in shit creek != "banning bad foods and medicine"
stoppiing people entering usa for telling the truth about the orange shit bag != "stopping criminals entering"
so your as demented as the orange shit stain
Any country that is denied a visa for its officials will do a tit for tat and loudly announce that Donald Trump and anyone in his administration no longer has permission to visit their country. I'm sure he'll make some lame tweet about how "I was never going to visit X anyway because it is a shithole country!" but someone else telling him what he can and can't do is something he just can't tolerate so it'll get under his skin.
If you want to see what happens when something gets under his skin just google "Trump taco" if you aren't already familiar with it.
"Trump taco" if you aren't already familiar with it.
I thought TACO meant Trump's Actually Chicken Ordure.
Oh dear, there goes my green card! (As if. ;)
All becoming quite Pythonesque. Rubio is doing a fair imitation of the French Knight's threat to "fart in your general direction" but as Arthur later said "let's not go to Camelot. It is [become] a silly place."
From the contemporary musical that gave its name to the period ~1960-63 in a nation that has completely vanished.
"Don't let it be forgot, That once there was a spot, For one brief shining moment that was known, As Camelot."
Ok the end rhymes are little better than doggerel.
This will be applied selectively. I only wish the current British government and intelligence agencies would be refused entry, that would be hilarious. The EU too. Of course it wont happen but they are involved in censorship and free speech restrictions and it's getting more severe. Although if applied vigorously there aren't many governments around the world getting visas. I suspect it won't apply to "diplomats" and that status will be handied out to suit the US administration.
Probably time to free up some prison detention places for US citizens; as both America and Russia have demonstrated over many decades, having a few of the other country's citizens behind bars for nefarious reasons, does tend to facilitate negotiations in getting the person you actually want...
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