back to article The elusive goal of Unix – or Linux – simplicity

Linux distro wars are nothing new. "Advocacy" (a euphemism for angry argument) about hardware, OSes, programming languages and editors goes back as long as different computers have existed. Computers appeal to geeky folks, and geeky folks readily get a little too attached to things — and then become possessive and defensive …

  1. wolfetone Silver badge

    "Debian… if you love stability so much, why not just use a typewriter?"

    Recently I've been looking for a "new" distro to use. I've been happy with Linux Mint. Tried openSuSE and ended up having things broken for no reason. Tried Devuan but again hit a wall with software I need not playing right. Went to Debian, like I have always used Debian for 15+ years, and it worked. It's like an old pair of slippers. Comfortable, familiar, reliable.

    But this comment made me laugh, because I do use a typewriter. I have two. An old manual one and a (new to me) Brother "Word Processor" with a floppy drive. Why? Because I fucking hate printers. So if I ever need to write something or send something via the mail, I type it. And it's great. I recommend it for everything.

    If you need to print something that can't be typed though, just use the printer at work ;)

    1. Joe W Silver badge

      I wonder.... since Devuan is Debian without the overly complex $(deleted because I don't want to swear and start a flame war thread) systemd - I am pretty sure most if not all packages from Debian should be available on Devuan as well. But then: maybe not, if systemd is too deeply embedded into it (and then I want to ask why). Other than that: Yes.

      And maybe I should get a typewriter. Less hassle than the laptop and printer dance I currently have to do (the wife's windows laptops don't support WPA 3 and no matter which hardware I use for WPA 2 at the moment it seems awefully unstable, and of course I need her to be allowed to print, and I have not set up a real print server (yet), nor connected the printer to the other network via a different method - but then maybe I should finally set up the print server on some small SBC, a Pi 1 or somesuch).

      1. wolfetone Silver badge

        I really, really, really want to use Devuan. But the 2 times now I've tried it I've ran in to problems with software. Last time it was trying to get PHP installed, this time it was certain other software that just didn't seem to work. The installation process behaved strangely so that may have contributed to it. The laptop needs to work as I've a project ongoing so can't afford the time to fuck around and find out. I may install it as a VM though and tinker with Devuan as a side project, and if I can work out where I went wrong there I will switch out Debian for Devuan.

        As for typewriters being less hassle - HA! It's a different kind of hassle.

        I own 4 typewriters. 1 mechanical as I said (can't remember the name, the badge fell off) and 3 electronic ones. I have an Epson with a dodgy keyboard, a Canon TypeStar 2 which came from eBay and is either DOA from shitty packaging (actually no packaging - was sent to me in a plastic bag, no protection) and a Brother GW-25. Which is cool as it has a floppy drive. The mechanical one just works, keys sometimes jam but it's an old girl. The electronic ones are painful as there is either no online documentation for support (as in other users experience), or the ribbons are so expensive and not made anymore so they become expensive. But then they're quieter than the mechanical one.

        Although I will also say I have a Juki daisy wheel printer that I'm going to use for a creative project, plugged in to an old XP machine. If that works then that might superceed all the electronic typewriters...

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          I have NextCloud running on PHP on Devuan - it's ancient Beowulf and the initial installation was a bit odd as it insisted on installing X which I had to remove. I can't remember any undue issues with installation except that configuring web servers with or without PHP was never my thing. Whatever - it's been working for years.

        2. Philo T Farnsworth Silver badge

          IBM Selectric

          I don't have a typewriter any longer, but, if I did, it would definitely be an IBM "golf ball" Selectric -- with the correction thing that allowed you to overtype your mistakes with white-out because even after spending far too many decades at a keyboard my typing is still horrendous.

          The keyboard "feel" is the best I've ever laid fingers upon -- just the slightest bit of resistance before engaging the key -- and the satisfying whir-THUNK of the golf ball mechanism is just sublime. I'm pretty sure God typed the first draft of the Universe on an IBM Selectric (it was those darned fact-checking blue-pencil editors who messed it up).

          Back when IBM made products and not just mistakes.

          1. captain veg Silver badge

            Re: IBM Selectric

            I had one in my student days. It was great apart from the fact that I got through corrector ribbon at a prodigious rate, and it wasn't cheap.

            -A.

          2. GBE

            Re: IBM Selectric

            Many years ago, I configured a LInuxX11 machine so that it played an audio clip of a selectric golfball strike any time a "graphical" key was pressed. I'm not sure what the people in the surrounding cubes found more annoying: the selectric sounds or my giggling. I couldn't find a carriage-return or linefeed sound.

      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        One thing I've noticed about Devuan - I don't know if it's inherited from Debian - is that it does seem insistent on installing a GUI desktop. Leaving everything unticked at Tasksel it will install XFCE anyway. If it is inherited from Debian I can understand the author of the article to which Liam links disliking it. It appears that his business is providing bare platforms, not desktops.

        1. Gary Stewart Silver badge

          No GUI Devuan

          I have a bare bones Devuan installed on my NFS server. I used net install to install a basic server version that is not a web or database server (one of the standard install options I believe) which leads to a very basic set up with no GUI and then adding programs as needed. I generally use gparted to pre-partition drives before any install. Not for beginners but I'm fairly certain you are not one of them.

          As far as boring old Debian/Devuan goes I demand stability in day to day computer(s). My main distro is Devuan (daedalus) with Xfce and I also have Linux Mint Cinnamon installed (dual boot) on a couple of computers including my laptop to get the latest versions of some software I use, mainly KiCad along with a more up to date kernel and programming environment. It also allows me to gain some experience with systemd and as a bonus remind me as to why I don't like it.

          And speaking of systemd, does anybody know how to turn the normal console terminal off so that only the serial terminal is available. I found lots of ways in web articles/blogs of how to turn the serial terminal on but nobody seems to want/need to turn the console off (where is inittab when you really need it?). I assume there is some way to keep systemd from respawning it but I can't find it in the documentation that works and nobody else seems to know or care about how to do this. I need this for a very basic portable NFS server based on a Raspberry Pi 5. I would also really, really like to find a non-systemd distro preferably Debian based specifically for the Raspberry Pi 5 or at least able to use all the new hardware introduced with it.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: No GUI Devuan

            "And speaking of systemd, does anybody know how to turn the normal console terminal off so that only the serial terminal is available."

            It is not clear precisely what you are asking. Do you want console messages (i.e. dmesg output) to go only to a serial console? If so then for Linux distros in general (whether you use systemd or not) isn't this just a matter of ensuring that your cmdline (defined in your bootloader's config) has "console=ttyS0" and no other "console=XYZ" entries present?

            If you rather do not want a login prompt on any virtual console then ensure there are no gettys running on those consoles (i.e. not listed in /etc/inittab for non-systemd distro, have getty@.service disabled and serial-getty@.service enabled for systemd distros).

      3. zeigerpuppy

        Devuan is great, and yes you can generally install packages from repos targeted at Debian or Ubuntu.

        Debian policy and packagers have actually gotten better about init system compatibility and most have pretty good support across init systems.

        There still will be some packages that need manual intervention (gnome is a good example) but Devuan tries not to deviate from Debian unless necessary.

        Also, on a related note, I don't really understand why there's a stereotype of Debian being behind the times. It's always seemed perfectly sane to me to have a stable repo that's actually stable (like 700 days uptime stable), and then testing for more bleeding edge use cases.

        I am enjoying running hyprland on my laptop with Debian testing/experimental. But Devuan all the way for anything server related. Also nice that Debian has great ARM support for Raspi and other ARM based systems.

        Generally I recommend Debian or Devuan to new Linux users (or LMDE if they want something a bit more turnkey). Debian rewards users for learning Linux as it is consistent, well documented and the apt package system is still the best. I also recommend looking at the Arch wiki every now and then (such a good repository of common problems and fixes - and mostly applies to all Linux)

        1. doublelayer Silver badge

          "I don't really understand why there's a stereotype of Debian being behind the times."

          Because eventually, you want to run something but you can't because it requires a library version that was released two years ago. You could patch it in yourself, which doesn't work immediately because that interacts with another system service which also needs an update, but once you build both of those from source and make sure the paths are set right so only the thing that needs the new library uses the new library, both because you don't want the old version of anything to break on the new library and because you may not be installing security updates to your built-from-source version as often as Debian is patching the old one, it's working great. Many people don't know how to do that. Many who do don't want to have to do it too often. Each time you have to go around the OS to accomplish something becomes a little piece you have to remember to configure and maintain, putting more pressure on the admin.

          This might not affect you, in which case Debian is great. Debian is also great as a component of things because of this. The people who compare distros are the most likely to have hit that wall a couple times. I certainly have.

        2. Kerfufflinator

          "Also, on a related note, I don't really understand why there's a stereotype of Debian being behind the times. It's always seemed perfectly sane to me to have a stable repo that's actually stable (like 700 days uptime stable), and then testing for more bleeding edge use cases.

          I am enjoying running hyprland on my laptop with Debian testing/experimental. But Devuan all the way for anything server related. Also nice that Debian has great ARM support for Raspi and other ARM based systems."

          Aren't those two paragraphs the exact issue you're asking about in them? I too wanted to try Hyprland, but Debian stable is too far behind the times to be supported. I like keeping my daily driver as the stable version though so I thought "whatever, maybe in a VM one day when I'm bored..."

          I do wonder why you insist that "Devuan all the way for anything server related". Can you elaborate? Is SystemD that significant of a slog performance-wise that it makes a noticeable difference? Or are your servers really old that it matters? Or does it feel unnecessarily complex?

          I'm not trying to be cheeky, just looking for some elaboration. Got Devuan on an ancient laptop that these days is only used for watching an episode of something while eating - yes, we are a proud (stupid?) TV-less people. With SystemD, I understand intellectually how it goes against the principles of doing one thing only and doing it well, but in practice it has never been an issue for me.

    2. jake Silver badge
      Pint

      I also have two typewriters that I use. One's a positively ancient Royal, and the other is a mid-'50s Smith Corona Sterling portable with the engineering option keys.

      Cheers!

    3. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

      If you've been around for 15+ and didn't hate printers, I would have concerns. Hating printers is the natural state of anyone who spends time in a digital world. At some level I almost admire HP; by giving us DRM ink and remote bricking, they really have gilded the hate lily.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        hate printers (and tape)

        Printing (and magnetic tape) were the two non-shareable resources that couldn't really be readily virtualized to sharing elegance, considered in computer science OS courses.

        Printing required spooling which has always been a dog's breakfast and arguably still is. Magtape was normally non shareable with some mechanism to acquire exclusive use and later release it.

        I imagine printers and tape drives were the second and third most frequent items, respectively that landed in the BOFH's carpark having been ejected through an upper storey window.

      2. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

        Hate printers?

        I used to be pretty comfortable with printers on UNIX-like operating systems.

        That is, back before server-side rasterisation. Printers used to be these devices that you sent characters to, and the printer would put them onto paper, sometimes buffering them up until they had a complete line.

        Effects could be selected using character sequences that could either be embedded into the stream of bytes to do things like selecting different fonts, overstriking the text and page control. Some UNIX systems would allow you to select filters to do some of the cleverer effects for you, but it wasn't standard between systems.

        Printers like laser and Postscript printers introduced a different concept, one of page description languages. The filters that were selected would allow you to pre-format a print in the application, and pass a raw byte stream to the printer without change, or if you did not do this, assume plain text and wrap enough pre- and post-amble to print basic text. A bit of a pain to set up, but not overly difficult, and once it was done, it was done.

        Things started going downhill when printers that required the computer to rasterise the page into some form of bitmap before being sent started appearing. At one and the same time, you could suddenly do proper WYSIWYG, and printers stopped accepting plain text and put it onto paper. Initially you would construct pipelines of commands called from the SYSV printer subsystem, often using enscript or Ghostscript to do the heavy lifting.

        CUPS appeared, and for a brief period, as long as you (and CUPS!) knew the type of printer, it became simple again. I remember plugging an HP OfficeJet 5610 multifunction printer into Ubuntu 6.06, and it configured itself, and just worked. And it handled remote printing using lpd, for all it's flaws, seamlessly.

        Then CUPS became cleverer, and dumber all at the same time. Cleverer, because it tried to configure everything for you, and become a network client and server, and dumber, because it often got it wrong!

        This is the current state. It's optimised out of the box for modern printers, using IPP/IPPS over WiFi. It can get it right, sometimes. But try to do something else, like use a USB connected printer that uses a PPD file on one system from another across the network, and it gets it wrong more often than not. And use something unusual, like a receipt printer, or an old fashioned plotter, then you haven't got a hope that it will get it right (and the CUPS developers are actually suggesting you put it on some form of native port, like an RS232 line, and drive it directly without CUPS! Really, they are!).

        But it's not just CUPS. So many applications, rather than using a set of fixed defaults, try to remember the settings you last used, and apply them to the next print. Yes, I know I did 2-up booklet double-sided on high quality A3 last time I printed on that printer, but now it's got ordinary A4 copier paper in the tray again, and I just want a single sided quick print!

        My biggest fear is when my wife suddenly tells me that she has sent something to the printer, and it hasn't come out. So you go to the printer, and it's telling you to load C3 Envelopes, when you can be damn sure that was not what was wanted. You go back, and find that sometime earlier, the she had inadvertently let the mouse wander over the paper size box, and she must have hit up or down a few times, and it has selected and remembered whatever it was that was in the box when she eventually hit OK. And she's sent it several times, because when it didn't come out the first time, she tried again.

        So yes. I hate printers, but it wasn't always so. All this technology, and it's more difficult to do than ever before. Progress? What progress?

      3. Liam Proven (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

        > If you [don't] hate printers, I would have concerns.

        I don't hate printers. I've been around PCs for 38 years.

        I use the oldest most low-tech ones I can find. They work. They work better.

        For the last decade and a bit, a Lexmark E120N I got off Freecycle. It's a little budget mono laser. Came with a tiny chip to bypass Lexmark's attempts to block toner refill, but I never needed it. I am only on my 2nd toner, a refill, and I guess it came pre-chipped. I bought the cheapest refill I could find.

        It's wireless too. It has an Ethernet port. I plug it into my router. Result, it works for my wireless devices.

        The previous one was an HP Laserjet 6P, the cheapo "personal" edition. Worked until the rubber on the paper-pickup rollers perished.

        That replaced an HP Laserjet 5P which looked identical, but was I think 50% the DPI rating. It did the same thing. HP doesn't learn from its mistakes.

        Pick old and low-tech.

        Inkjets are a ripoff. Inkjet _ink_ is a bigger ripoff. Don't.

        Wireless is a ripoff. Don't.

        Smart is a ripoff. Don't.

        Multifunction is a ripoff. Don't.

        Unless you _need_ it, colour is a ripoff. Don't. If you absolutely need it, dedicate a device to it.

        Anything which plugs direct into the network is a boon: this reduces the potential for stupid driver shenanigans. Look for an Ethernet port.

        1. exovert

          The moment the likes of Prusa or Bambu notice they only need to make one 2d layer on a 3d printer I assume HP is a penny stock. All this time wasted making the next best thing to replicators

    4. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Likewise a two typewriter household. I'm not sure where they are, probably in a packing case in the garage, the packing case they've been in for several house moves. Mine's an ancient Remington portable, SWMBO's something sleeker and plastic cased. Last time I saw mine it had signs of woodworm.

  2. jake Silver badge

    For the last thirty+ years ...

    ... I've been pretty much doing the same thing, except with Slackware on the desktops and miscellaneous similar boxen, and BSD on the servers and Internet facing kit.

    Slackware because it showed up right when I needed it, and I have seen no reason to change (although gawd/ess knows I've looked over all the serious alternatives over the decades), and BSD because ... well, because I've been using one BSD or another since before it was BSD. And again, I have seen absolutely no reason to change ... although it was looking a trifle touchy for a while there in the '80s.

  3. 45RPM Silver badge

    I used to be like this. I used to think that whatever I’d chosen had to be the one true path. Sure, I’d cite sources, “evidence” to back up my opinion but, when you strip away the fluff, my decision was only right because it was my opinion.

    And I was slightly right, for a very small proportion of the population (i.e. that very small proportion of the population that corresponded exactly with me). I’m slightly embarrassed that I had the gall to suggest that someone else’s position on choice of hardware / software was wrong. Their decision was just as valid, and just as correct, for just the same proportion of the population as mine.

    Yes, there are things I can state as facts. Linux runs on a wider variety of hardware, Windows has more games, macOS has a more integrated ecosystem. These are incontrovertible - but they’re nothing more than differentiators to guide a buying decision. They don’t make one better than another - only your particular use case does that.

    So I use macOS for my desktop, Linux for my servers and home entertainment system and iPhone for my… er… phone. And I eschew Alexa, because I’m happy for my home to be dumb. But if you make different choices that doesn’t mean I’m wrong and you’re right - it just means that your needs are different.

    I think age has mellowed me.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "someone else’s position on choice of hardware / software was wrong.'

      If you are the poor sod that will be required to support and maintain "someone else's" choice then you definitely have skin in the game and some standing in deciding what is chosen.

      Personally when I wasn't so encumbered I was content to accept even the the most foolish hardware and software acquisitions.

      With experience and hindsight the lesson of the advisability of consulting the support staff before embarking on a large purchases had been largely (and painfully) learnt.

      Often what is the right or wrong choice is determined by the context in which the decision is to be made.

      The right choice in a Unix shop is very likely to be rather different from the choice in a Windows shop although the former might observe the latter were doomed from the outset.

      1. 45RPM Silver badge

        Re: "someone else’s position on choice of hardware / software was wrong.'

        True. But I (mildly) say that I will give advice on what to buy, and if you take that advice then I will guarantee it by supporting your purchase. But, if you opt for some other product, I will fervently hope that you’re happy with it - and I’ll be interested to hear about your experiences - but I’m not going to provide any help.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Simplicity and Elegance

    Elusive.

    I occasionally reread the 1974 ACM paper The UNIX™ Time-Sharing System to be reminded that with right choice of abstractions, simplicity and elegance appear almost magically.

    Perhaps we are approaching a Multics moment when AT&T withdrew from the Multics project; A decision that ultimately lead to UNIX.

    The power and complexity of contemporary (even consumer grade) hardware often dwarfs even the mainframe systems of the 1970s. So not really surprising the software which doesn't differ conceptually that much from the 1970s is also incredibly complex.

    We can only hope that one day with a few well chosen hardware and software abstractions, much of current inelegance and complexity will fall away.

    A bit Devil's Dictionary I must admit to a wry smile at:

    Advocacy (a euphemism for angry argument)

    One might claim the the Latin roots might support the sense "shout at" as easily "speak to" although vociferate† would do similar service.

    † I like the coinage advociferate to describe the nonsensical ranting of those participating in culture and flame wars.

  5. MarkMLl

    "Advocacy..."

    Half the problems start when one or more of the people involved in the debate does so from a position of incomplete information and limited experience. They get worse when they insist that their viewpoint is so important that they are entitled or even obliged to argue from a position of ignorance.

    I remember a friend who worked at- IIRC- Red Hat, who started discussing user interfaces with some colleagues and was surprised that none of them had heard of the CUA (Common User Access) guidelines: which had of course been invented by their corporate parent IBM, and for a long time were broadly respected by Microsoft.

    Now that obviously was ancient history, and he's observed in the past that many of the currently-active "professionals" are actually younger than Windows '95 and NT which form the foundations of "Windows as we know it". But one would have thought that /somewhere/ there would be a record of hacks that had been found to work and idioms which were universally understood, and that this would be taught.

    Which leads us to the demise of the organised WIMP user interface, in favour of the utter mess which- IMO- we have when considering Android etc. Why did it happen: was it simply because nobody recognised that the UI worked and was worth respecting? Was it simply because nobody had managed to /explain/ to the new generation that it worked? Was is because corporates felt that they couldn't attract new blood if they weren't given groundbreaking work to do?

    And I wonder how many times this has happened in the past. Mainframes were swept away (until people realised that they needed centralised databases). Minis were swept away (until people realised that they needed some sort of multitasking and interprocess communications). Windows- at least in its classic form- has been swept away, and replaced by "UI de jour" either implemented directly on the screen or in a browser. Script-based unix startup has been swept away and replaced by systemd...

    And every damn time, there are people eager to argue the notional advantages of the new system. Whether or not they understand the old one.

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: "Advocacy..."

      Which leads us to the demise of the organised WIMP user interface, in favour of the utter mess which- IMO- we have when considering Android etc. Why did it happen: was it simply because nobody recognised that the UI worked and was worth respecting? Was it simply because nobody had managed to /explain/ to the new generation that it worked? Was is because corporates felt that they couldn't attract new blood if they weren't given groundbreaking work to do?

      I think it's because learning is done piecemeal (YouTube, Stack Overflow, ChatGPT...) instead of having a big book with everything there. Which is fine if you're stuck and need to fix one problem but if you want a coherent whole you'll only find it in a book (or the PDF version). If you don't even know what you don't know, you'll end up blundering around in the dark and re-inventing something, badly.

      That, and parachuting lots of graphics designers in to do GUI work who weren't aware of any of the work done previously by engineers.

      1. l8gravely

        Re: "Advocacy..."

        It's also because people and companies want "the next new thing!" and "you have to upgrade because of our new X, Y or Z", when the old version works just fine. If it ain't broke, don't fix it gets more and more useful asI get older.

        This past weekend I tried getting Photospring inside Docker working better (it's already pretty nice for what it does!) so I could upload photos more easily from my iPhone so I could finally sort and organize and do some facial recognition, etc. Nope, not a fucking hope to get it working. But the system I host it all on is a Debian system upgraded since version 5 (I think) piece meal over the years all the way to Debian 12. It works. I runs some reasonably bleeding edge linux kernels I self compile. It works! Until it doesn't...

        I'm thinking I need to go back to basics, where I have a core systems that just provides KVM, NFS, Docker, etc. But no real user logins except for management. Then I just have various VMs which mount home directories from the core server part. I can upgrade, change, update, play with VMs to my hearts content. But the core services are just there and working and stable.

        Ah... it's like a good workbench. It has to be durable, adaptable, flexible but above all solid and unmoving when you're bashing away on top of it on a project. So much so that you just forget about it mostly. Until you need to do an upgrade.

        So I want a really good workbench (Debian? FreeBSD? ProxMox? ) whcih can provide good services, but not much more. The rest is all for the VMs ontop of the abstraction to play with.

    2. Gene Cash Silver badge

      Re: "Advocacy..."

      Don't forget wayland...

    3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: "Advocacy..."

      With Android having to conform to the limits of a phone CUA wouldn't fit well. OTOH scarcely anyone seems to have found anything beyond the home screen that does - at least not that I've seen. That's no excuse to have dumped elements of phone interfaces on the desktop nor to have abandoned CUA and the consistency it brings.

      1. captain veg Silver badge

        Re: "Advocacy..."

        PalmOS on Treo and Centro was my earliest smartphone experience. Doubt that it was precisely CUA, but it had recognisable buttons and menus and dialog boxes. Oh, and a physical keyboard, of course. And a stylus for precise screen poking.

        It's been all downhill since.

        -A.

        1. MarkMLl

          Re: "Advocacy..."

          Most PDAs and featurephones had some sort of pointing device: a four-way rocker or similar, and multiple buttons.

          What is really so difficult about the idea that screen areas that /can/ be clicked on should be visually distinct, and should have popup hints telling the user what he is about to do, at least until he is familiar with the UI?

          Smartphone screens are- and always have been- capable of far more resolution than early Macs, Windows or GEM systems: and arguably outperform the Xerox workstations on which the WIMP metaphor started off. There's really no excuse for walking away from well-established design principles that allow anybody familiar with one family of systems to quickly adjust to some other.

          When Windows started pushing a common user interface in the early '90s there was a lot of hot air asserting that it would "stifle innovation". I was no lover of Microsoft (having dealt with them commercially) but I certainly never promoted that viewpoint, and I think that history demonstrates that a system based on menus and a two- (or possibly three-) button pointing device is vastly superior to one in which every application program requires the operator to memorise an arcane list of key-combinations that grew larger with every release.

          I remember a specialist wordprocessor called the Redactron, from a company led by a woman and promoted as freeing women from drudgery. But /boy/: despite having a fancy keyboard the poor girl operating it had to memorise a truly obscene number of shortcuts.

          By all means: /allow/ keyboard shortcuts in the design philosophy. By all means, /allow/ fancy context-sensitive areas of the screen (multi-finger zoom etc.). But for people who do not use that particular piece of software dozens of times a day, provide the universally-understood menu system as a fallback.

          However, I have to admit at this point that perhaps I am being reactionary, and perhaps I am advocating a "traditional" solution because I am unfamiliar with the design guides published by the various 'phone OS suppliers (Apple, Google) and the people who would like their app to look like it works on a 'phone even if running on the desktop or in a browser.

          But I'm still left bothered by the suspicion that most smartphones are used only as terminals to Facebook and Twitter, so really those are the only UIs that the vast majority of users need to be familiar with.

          1. captain veg Silver badge

            Re: "Advocacy..."

            > Most PDAs and featurephones had some sort of pointing device: a four-way rocker or similar, and multiple buttons.

            True. This was a good thing. The Treos also had a touchscreen, albeit one that needed prodding with a hard object like a stylus or fingernail rather than your fingertips. I later discovered that my fingertips are entirely useless at controlling a touch UI.

            > Smartphone screens are- and always have been- capable of far more resolution than early Macs, Windows or GEM systems

            Well, no. Not always. My first Treo, which was definitely much more than a featurephone, had a screen resolution of 160 pixels squared. This was limiting, but not insuperable. For example, it displayed text perfectly well and Eudora made, back then, a text-only web browser that worked briliantly. As did their mail client. TomTom maps worked pretty well too, despite the lack of inbuilt GPS.

            The later Treos and Centros went out to 320x320, which was certainly better, but not really enough. But at least web servers didn't go "oh look, a portrait screen, must fuck about, er, optimise, the layout and behaviour for mobile phones".

            -A.

          2. druck Silver badge

            Re: "Advocacy..."

            What you are describing is the old Windows CE/Mobile devices which tried to be an NT desktop on a 240x320 screen controlled by tiny keys or a pointy stick. Very easy to port Windows applications to, but a complete failure when it came to using it, and it rightly died a death. What took it's place was the Android and IOS interfaces, which are vastly better to use on phones or tablets. But just as the conventional desktop didn't work on those hand held devices, their interfaces do not work on a laptop or monitor. Attempting to bring across indistinct UI elements and abominations such as the hamburger menu to large screen mouse and keyboard controlled device, and abandoning CUA principles is a massive mistake.

  6. Gene Cash Silver badge

    "why not just use a typewriter"

    Actually GIMP 3.0 forced me to start using a typewriter.

    I have to write a check once a month for my lawn service, then walk down the block and put it in his mailbox. However, my handwriting is illegible and the bank sometimes refuses it because they couldn't make head or tail of my scribbles.

    So I scanned one, and used GIMP to place text, hid the scanned image layer, and printed checks for him, using the Gutenprint extension to place it properly. Simple, no? This process worked for about 4 years.

    Then GIMP 3.0 trashed all that. It wouldn't print the text twice in the same place on a printout.

    After two weeks of this nightmare, I just bought a typewriter. Or attempted to. But I was able to borrow one.

    After another two weeks (since I'm a persistent bastard) it turns out GIMP 3.x just doesn't like the original xcf. Scanning the check again generated a semi-workable file. I have to grudgingly say the new print system is better than the old one.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    So....in 1983......

    .....I was using an Osborne 01. Yup...CP/M-80.....64K for memory.....and Wordstar.

    Huge revolution in my life......

    .....I could backspace when I noticed a mistake!!

    .....I could save documents.....and re-use them!!

    ....and my printer was.......an Olivetti Praxis typewriter modified with an IEEE-488 interface.......which worked well with the Osborne!

    Heaven......word processing......printing......and occasional typewriter use as well!!

    P.S. The saved Wordstar documents are on my Fedora 42 server even as I write! Aren't backups wonderful!

    1. 45RPM Silver badge

      Re: So....in 1983......

      Newbrain, with 128k memory expansion, disk interface, CP/M 2.0, Wordstar, DBase II, HiSoft C.

      Silverreed EX44 to print

      Different hardware, same heaven.

      Backups on a Raspberry Pi based server in an Argon Eon case, which is mirrored to a Raspberry Pi based server in an Argon Eon case.

      1. l8gravely

        Re: So....in 1983......

        Z-80, CP/M, 8" floppies, Magic Wand word processor, Diablo 630 daisy wheel printer, big box to hold printer to keep down the noise! Mail merge of 1000 names into form letters for mass mailings from Dad's business. Priceless!

        1. 45RPM Silver badge

          Re: So....in 1983......

          Happy days. I’d forgotten about those soundproof boxes. I never owned one. But I’ll never forget the ratatatata of my EX44.

    2. Gene Cash Silver badge

      Re: So....in 1983......

      Huh... I can rattle off all the specs of my S-100 boxes with CompuPro Z-80/8086 dual-CPU, with ARCNET and a 40MB hard disk from 1983 or so...

      We used Wordstar, I think.

      But I haven't got the foggiest what printers we had! I know we had several, and they were 132 columns.

      Man. Wow. That information is completely gone.

  8. ecofeco Silver badge

    Says it all really

    "Computers appeal to geeky folks, and geeky folks readily get a little too attached to things — and then become possessive and defensive …"

    We still live in the times of sorting out. The technology hierarchy of today may not be the hierarchy of tomorrow, but we can no longer assume it will keep improving.

    But the premise is correct, simplicity of use is what we need, not more Rube Goldberg. A computer's entire core reason, and only reason, for existence... is to do the heavy lifting. As is EVERY machine's.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The elusive goal of Unix – or Linux – simplicity

    ....is this headline a bit misleading?

    In my personal experience the "simplicity" comes from applications......not from the OS.

    I'm a twenty-six year user of Linux (various RedHat and many Fedora versions).....but the simplicity comes with Python or LibreOffice....sometimes with C..............

    ...........the OS is NECESSARY.....but not SUFFICIENT!!

    That said, Windows was part of my life for less than nine years.....twenty-six versus nine probably tells us something!!!

    1. Liam Proven (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

      Re: The elusive goal of Unix – or Linux – simplicity

      > the simplicity comes with Python or LibreOffice

      *Laughs hollowly in the ghostly tones of Dennis Ritchie*

      You picked two of the biggest snarliest hairballs in FOSS as your examples of simplicity. That's priceless.

      Python in 2007:

      https://xkcd.com/353/

      Python 11 years later, by 2018:

      https://xkcd.com/1987/

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The elusive goal of Unix – or Linux – simplicity

        Liam:

        "Simplicity" from exactly which perspective?

        Programmers may sneer at Python or LibreOffice..................................

        ...................but people JUST USING THEM might have a different perspective!!

        POV (point of view) is very relevant!!

      2. Gene Cash Silver badge

        Re: The elusive goal of Unix – or Linux – simplicity

        I'm a total Python nutcase, but I have the XKCD #1987 posted above my desk.

        It is so true.

        Especially on Debian. It throws an absolute shitfit when I want to update yt-dlp. Threatens me with excommunication, torrents of frogs, daemons with forks(2), the works.

      3. Will Godfrey Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        Re: The elusive goal of Unix – or Linux – simplicity

        Is there anything, anything at all, that there isn't an XKCD strip on

        1. HorseflySteve Silver badge

          Re: The elusive goal of Unix – or Linux – simplicity

          "Is there anything, anything at all, that there isn't an XKCD strip on?"

          No, I don't think so...

      4. doublelayer Silver badge

        Re: The elusive goal of Unix – or Linux – simplicity

        XKCD 1987 is very true, but what it isn't is unique, either to the time or to the language. Hands up who has never had and used:

        Multiple JREs and JDKs.

        Different versions of a library written in C or C++.

        Different code or preprocessor directives to deal with different compilers.

        Some script which doesn't run right with modern versions, but it's more work to update it than to give it whatever outdated environment it wants.

        Any node_modules folder, whether or not you created it.

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: The elusive goal of Unix – or Linux – simplicity

          There is very little in XKCD which hasn't had its essence discussed ad nauseum in the technical world for probably centuries, if not millennia.

          That's what makes it funny. It's poking fun at life. See Peanuts or Andy Capp.

        2. Liam Proven (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

          Re: The elusive goal of Unix – or Linux – simplicity

          > Hands up who has never had and used:

          [Raises paw]

  10. martinusher Silver badge

    No money in simplicity

    Unix was always conceived in terms of building complex applications from stringing simple functions together. The glue would be scripting which could also provide a GUI if necessary. All very straightforward and logical (and testable).

    Unfortunately, there's no money in just making stuff work. Programmers, who should devote their efforts in trying to not write any code, seem to devise ever more complex mechanisms to do things. The justification is you're making something that's general purpose ("reusable") or secure. Its really a form of makework, especially if you focus on language systems designed primarily for one platform.

    The problem's obvious when you see people asking about why such-and-such a language doesn't have this or that 'feature'. In the world I live in if a (scripting) language lacks a feature then you just add it. You don't keep revising the base language making both it and the applications you make from it ever more complex and convoluted. But the fashion is more complexity because, as we all know, more is better.

    1. Gene Cash Silver badge

      Re: No money in simplicity

      Someone needs to see https://xkcd.com/1319/

      1. Roo
        Windows

        Re: No money in simplicity

        I do like that xkcd strip - and definitely can relate to it... But as I sit here - right now, as a developer, I realize that somehow I have entered a weird space where the stuff I automated is actually working - and I am casting around looking for more stuff to automate - or in the case of apps saturating virtual machines - migrating them back to bare metal to *reduce* the amount of required automation + cost + ice caps melted. ;)

        1. LionelB Silver badge
          Pint

          Re: No money in simplicity

          Learning some basic Bash scripting actually made my life better.

          1. jake Silver badge

            Re: No money in simplicity

            Yes.

            You are not actually a Linux user if you aren't familiar with bash.

            Trying to use any of the un*cies without at least a basic, working knowledge of bash is like trying to assemble a jigsaw puzzle in the dark wearing mittens.

            Yes, there are many other shells. I'm talking basics here ... crawl, then walk, then run.

        2. jake Silver badge

          Re: No money in simplicity

          "and I am casting around looking for more stuff to automate "

          Now you become a consultant; automate shit for other people and make the big bucks.

    2. doublelayer Silver badge

      Re: No money in simplicity

      "In the world I live in if a (scripting) language lacks a feature then you just add it. You don't keep revising the base language making both it and the applications you make from it ever more complex and convoluted."

      In the world I live in, I sometimes have to clean up the variety of functions we wrote for one use case that could have been standard but weren't, the standard functions that could have been in libraries, and the libraries that could have been language features. Each standardization makes it possible to not redo work. If there is something that lots and lots of people want to use, then building it in might help to make the tools better. That doesn't mean you implement everything in the compiler so your program just reads doMyWork(), but when there is something that is generic to the language and heavily demanded, and the choice is whether to add some syntax or to have lots of people import a thousand-line library and write ten lines instead of one every time they want to use it, the syntax option is worth considering.

  11. Combat Epistomologist

    Side-eye through Linux/Unix landscapes

    "Gentoo: [...] if [AUTOMATING] compiling everything from source is your idea of a good time, [...]"

    ... "Then just think how much more fun it is DOING IT BY HAND!!!"

    I detect a certain lack of consistency here.

    "Thanks to our policy of building our own software, we need the capability to package our own software or control the versions we use. This autonomy allows us to tailor the software to our specific needs and avoid unnecessary components."

    Which is EXACTLY why Gentoo users use Gentoo.

  12. wjl

    Nice one

    Nice lists, Liam - I enjoyed that article a lot. Still on Debian and Arch here, but I've tried so many over the years, this brought back smiles and memories...

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Other stories you might like