Torvalds' typing taste test touches tactile tragedy

Linus Torvalds is the global hero most of the world doesn't even know exists. There are no big movies about him, no best-selling biographies, no ardent Torvaldian cultists with home altars and gilded icons. At least, we hope not. To those who know, he led the digital world out from the imperial serfdom that had seemed its …

[SVD_NL]

You're not entirely correct

For the keyswitches themselves there are many measures that give a very good indication of what the switch is like. The primary ones being actuation force/resistance, pre-travel distance, total travel, and actuation type. This tells you how far you need to press the key before it registers, how much force you need to use to move the key, how long the total travel is, and if you have tactile, auditory, or no actuation feedback.

The other measures are all subjective, and that needs to be described in such a way. There is no other way to really describe how "snappy" the actuation is, or how it feels to bottom out.

[Uplink]

Re: You're not entirely correct

I'm curious now. Did anyone quantify those properties that you list for the Model M? That would make the comparison a bit more scientific than "Oh, how I loved Model M and hate these modern keyboards." It should probably one of the first steps in the "lot of work" that the article says needs to be done.

[SVD_NL]

Re: You're not entirely correct

Well, i found this website. (Which is rather meticulous, like seriously high quality content).

The model M uses the membrane type switches. This makes it very similar to Cherry MX green in terms of force and travel.

I've never used the Model M keyboards, but for the "feel" of it, i recon the force curve matters a lot too, i don't have time to compare those two right now.

[chasil]

Re: You're not entirely correct

I am typing on a Model M now, part number 1391401, dated 22JUL88. I found this particular Model M underneath a floor tile in our datacenter in the early 2000s. I have two more at home, a bit newer.

There is a clear tactile feel of certainty when you have successfully pressed a key on these IBM designs (and I've used the Datamaster, original PC, the AT, and the PS/2 Model M), where there is tactile ambiguity on common modern membrane keyboards.

I have no problem using my laptop keyboard, but I make more mistakes on it than when it's docked and my Model M is powered up.

Model M keyboards do have some problems, the most common being the loss of plastic rivets that will cause the keys to stick.

https://www.instructables.com/IBM-Model-M-Disassembly-and-Repair/

[AJ MacLeod]

Re: You're not entirely correct

I'm sure someone else out there is genuinely using one still older, but the one I'm typing this on is dated 02-10-1986 (part 1390136). I quite like the look of some of those expensive mechanical keyboards that have a volume knob at the top corner but there's no way I'd sacrifice my buckling springs for one.

My dad used to use Cherry keyboards and I could never really see the attraction - they certainly made clicky noises but for me were not any improvement over a decent membrane keyboard. When I first dragged this Model M out of the shed (only a few years ago actually, to see what all the fuss was about) I was instantly converted. I genuinely make fewer typing mistakes and the buckling spring sort of catapults your fingers back to where they need to be - hard to describe, but feels just right. I don't share my office so noise doesn't matter (though I do often get comments from people I'm on the phone to if I'm typing in the background!)

[david 12]

Re: You're not entirely correct

Is there a comparison of M to PC/XT models? I've got an early computer magazine with a review of the IBM PC, which reports that the computer itself is nothing special, but that the keyboard which comes with it categorically superior to anything else available.

[Dr_Bingley]

Re: You're not entirely correct

If you're thinking of the Model F - yes, there are. Both the Model M and Model F are discussed at length at forums like Geekhack and Deskthority. There is also a project which has recreated the Model F key switches, and now produces Model F keyboards with modern layouts, optionally in Model-M style cases. You can find their website by looking for 'Brand new model f keyboards'.

[Ivor]

Re: You're not entirely correct

Indeed I have one of the new model-F's (one of my more self-indulgent extravagant purchases) and I absolutely adore it.

[ThomH]

Re: You're not entirely correct

Same here (albeit company-sponsored) but I will add: my wife, as an observer, detests it. As do my neighbours, probably.

[Antron Argaiv]

Re: You're not entirely correct

I have a model M (11-23-91), and I like the feel. For me, a close second is the old Dell AT101W, of which I have several. The model M is nicer, though, and it's my daily driver.

Now, on to the "dislikes". At the head of the list is the laptop keyboard, followed closely by its desktop sibling, the flat keyboard. Absolutely despise those and, when working, refused to use them. I had a proper, sloped and curved AT101W attached to a USB hub. Likewise, the tiny laptop screen was diverted to a human size monitor, mounted at eye level.

This brings up the cattle-pen "open office" and its hot desking. Do companies assume that people will just show up, plug in their laptops, and start working? Before I retired, I (and my coworkers) had my desk set up very carefully to maximise comfort and minimise strain. That seems not to be a consideration any more. So glad I retired when I did.

[imanidiot]

Re: You're not entirely correct

"Do companies assume that people will just show up, plug in their laptops, and start working?"

Yes. They do. And it's of course utter bull crap. I spend 10 to 15 minutes every day to set up my desk and chair the way I like it if I can't just claim the same desk every day. There is an obsession (amongst manager folks who've never done a productive days work in their life) about clean desks and "efficient use of resources" where they want everyone to show up every day yet also assume that not everyone will be there very day so "hot desking" is required to make the most efficient use of floorspace. My own employer is luckily not going entirely off the rails and lets us "claim" a desk for the entire day but our customer for instance requires people to clear their desk if they're going away for more than 30 minutes. Which means that if you have a 1 hour meeting you need to spend 10 minutes before that time clearing the desk and shoving things into a locker (somewhere else in the building) and then another 10 to 15 minutes after your meeting retrieving your stuff, finding a desk (if the one you had been sitting at has been occupied) and setting things up again. I hate it, I want to be able to recognize who sits at a desk from the pile of accumulated "stuff" on it, heck, I WANT a desk with a pile of accumulated "stuff" on it. But alas, we all have to align with the neat-freaks obsessed with "clean desk, clean mind" ethos who don't understand that for many engineers "empty desk, empty mind' is a far more apt description (and also the one we apply to the managers who think desks should be empty).

[big_D]

Re: You're not entirely correct

I grew up on DEC VT100 terminals and the IBM 5250. I loved those keyboards, the Model M is a close second in my heart.

I have been using ergonomic keyboards since the mid-90s, due to RSI, I keep buying normal keyboards, but I quickly revert back to ergonomic designs, because of pains in my wrists and forearms.

I mainly used the Microsoft Natural and Microsoft Ergonomic keyboards, but they went with the scrabble style keys and short squishy travel, which made me like them less. The last Microsoft Ergonomic was OK, if not up to the original Natural or the Natural Multimedias from the early 2000s. But even those weren't good, compared to real keyboards with real switches.

I discovered Perrix last year and have a couple of Periboard 835 models, with Blue and Red keys and backlighting. They are probably the best ergonomic keyboards I've used since the original Natural.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: You're not entirely correct

Pre-travel? What?

[SVD_NL]

Re: You're not entirely correct

It's the distance from the "resting" position to the actuation point. The "tactile point" (where you can veel the click or bump) us usually right before that.

You can see this on the datasheets of cherry mx keys, here's the green switch datasheet for example pdf link

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: You're not entirely correct

if you want be able to tune pretty much any of that for any key.

https://wooting.io/wooting-two-he

[wolfetone]

Tell you what though, you know what are an utter waste of time? Ergonomic keyboards.

I've used them for years, and you know what happened? Carpal tunnel in both wrists.

When this current ergonomic keyboard I have bites the dust I am going to go back to a Model M, or as near as damn one.

[Bill Gray]

Experiences vary. Mine was the opposite of yours (had quite bad carpal tunnel, switched to ergonomic, carpal tunnel went away... though I did various other things, such as switching to a Dvorak layout and moving my mouse to the other hand; it was by no means a controlled experiment.) I see other anecdotal evidence (see Edwin's reply below). And as I write this, you have three upvotes and zero down, suggesting some agreement with your experience.

But the plural of anecdote isn't data, even if the anecdotes agreed with each other. A bit of Web searching for evidence for/against ergo keyboards helping with RSI got me lots of people trying to sell me keyboards, and almost nothing in the way of actual data. The Interwebs are getting seriously enshittified... but I digress.

I could imagine that a good Model M keyboard might hurt your wrists less than a bad ergonomic one. Hunt/peck typists may have a different result from touch-typists. Ergo proponents will say that "it stands to reason" that having a keyboard that doesn't force your wrists into an unnatural attitude will improve matters. Well, yes, it stands to reason, but that doesn't mean it actually helps.

If someone were foolish enough to ask for my advice, I'd probably say : if you have carpal tunnel, try a different keyboard. It does seem apparent that people switch and sometimes feel better.

[Ignazio]

Trackball instead of mouse did it for me, I was starting to get twinges in my right wrist. One Logitech trackball later, I was happy again. Must be seven or eight years since.

[ske1fr]

An awful warning from the future

If it's the design where you move the cursor with your thumb, you may get tendonitis in your thumb after a few years. RSI comes in many forms. I had to give up on mice and use a RollerMouse, using my fingertips.

Similarly with keyboards, y'all witter on about IBM clackers, but in time you may find that wide keyboard also knackers your shoulders. A compact keyboard without the numberpad helped me with that by aligning my arms.

[big_D]

I used Logitech trackballs for a while, but I missed the accuracy of the mouse, I never could manage the same levels with the trackball.

I now use vertical mice, currently the Logitech one, but I have also used the Anker vertical mouse. I prefer the Logitech MX Master 2S/3S, but my wrist thanks me for using the vertical one.

[Alistair]

mouse RSI

I've been using trackballs since..... urrr, well I think I've had mice at offices where I *wasn't* a full timer. I still have my ?? 27 year old (possibly 32?) logitec trackball running, the fingertip, not thumb version, the scrollwheel has had its rubber outer liner replaced many times, oddly with a standard faucet filter washer. I've taken one or another trackball with me to work, I just cannot deal with waving all over the desk.

[midgepad]

moles

I've not seen anything on the big pointing device shoved with a foot, in the depths below the desk. But it might rest wrists.

It seems likely that cycling quite quickly between multiple keyboards might calm wrists.

[M.V. Lipvig]

Best mouse I ever had? A Crayola crayon mouse. Using it was exactly like using a pen, and the two buttons were in a natural location to use while writing. I loved that thing, but when I wore it out and went to replace it they weren't making them anymore.

Second best was a right thumb actuated trackball with the buttons to the right. When that one wore out it looked like the decided to make them universal with the ball in the middle, don't like those at all.

[M.V. Lipvig]

Do people really contort themselves to fit a keyboard? I keep my wrists at a natural angle, so my hands lay across the keyboard at a 45 degree angle. Never had a problem typing that way and I can almost type at conversation speed.

[l8gravely]

Strange keyboards are the bane of IT support

So I don't like ergonomic keyboards because they're strange and my muscle memory isn't helpful. It's even worse when I plunk down at some user's desktop and they have capslock still on the home row. Sigh... the one true emacs way is to have Ctrl be way out left! But if you do have carpal tunnel syndrome, then maybe you're sitting wrong? Or you've got the mouse way too far out to the side? I've gone to 88 key ten-keyless keycord (CODE from wasdkeyboards.com) as my goto driver at both work and home. It's backlit, narrow so my mouse isn't way out to the side and it clicks and feels nice. It's got the Cherry MX Clear switches, so it's loud, but not nearly as bad as the blues.

What I wish I could find is a keyboard with the number pad and/or function keys on the LEFT side, but I'm a lefty who can't use the mouse with his left hand, but can't draw with my right hand to save myself at all.

[Greybearded old scrote]

Re: Strange keyboards are the bane of IT support

Moving Ctrl to the capslock isn't fixing the right problem. You do not want to be stretching to hold down a key with your weakest finger. Especially not if you are obeying your typing tutor and keeping your index finger over the home key. (Don't do that.)

I have mapped Alt to Ctrl, and Win to be Alt. That's where Ctrl actually started, but every manufacturer since shoved it to one side so they could insert a new one. I would use the Menu key for compose, but the likes of Firefox and LibreOffice still pop up the context menu. They must be bypassing the X System keyboard code and looking straight at the key codes. Shame On Them! Strangely the remapped Ctrl and Alt still work correctly on both of them.

That and a bent keyboard have at least reduced my RSI. Frankly I wish I'd never learned to touch type (ish), my GP gleefully informed me that two finger typists never seize up the way we often do.

[ABehrens]

Re: Strange keyboards are the bane of IT support

I'm pretty sure that Ctrl didn't start on the bottom row at all. I grew up coding on a Model 35 teletype, and Ctrl was directly to the left of A. That's why I always remap the useless CapsLock key as a second Ctrl key.

The Model 35 put the Esc key directly to the left of Q, not far off in the corner. Much nicer for 'vi' users.

[Greybearded old scrote]

Re: Strange keyboards are the bane of IT support

The oldest example I saw (in a talk by someone better informed than me) had it by the space bar, but I'll take your word for it. I think my ergonomic argument is good though.

[Walkabout Gaijin]

Re: Strange keyboards are the bane of IT support

<checks scrote> Grey-ish for sure.

In the vey early days, the Ctrl key was definitely left of the A. Whether that was the ideal location or not, I hate the Caps Lock there.

[Chris Evans]

Re: Strange keyboards are the bane of IT support

"What I wish I could find is a keyboard with the number pad and/or function keys on the LEFT side". Left or 'both' handed keyboards are readily available. I've been selling an a4tech one for well over 10 years.

If you can learn to use the mouse with one hand and a numeric keypad with the other I'm sure some data entry could be much quicker!

[Bill Gray]

Re: Strange keyboards are the bane of IT support

Clearly, we need a keyboard split in the middle and at the numeric keypad. Three separate bits of hardware that you can shuffle around on your desk, and with adjustable feet so you can get each bit to tilt the way you want it. And the split keyboard such that another user can just push the two parts together to get a "regular", unsplit keyboard.

(A bit of online searching turns up a _lot_ of separated numeric keypads, so I appear -- unsurprisingly -- not to be the first to think along these lines.)

[Richard 12]

Re: Strange keyboards are the bane of IT support

When I was regularly onsite with a small laptop my USB numeric keypad was an essential bit of kit.

For numeric data entry it absolutely cannot be beaten - but woe betide the user of a numeric keypad where the decimal point key does not match the numeric entry locale!

[Mongrel]

Re: Strange keyboards are the bane of IT support

An alternative is to look for a Tenkeyless keyboard and a separate numberpad.

I have a nice wireless numberpad that has swappable switches from Epomaker that's very pleasant to use

[YetAnotherLocksmith]

Re: Strange keyboards are the bane of IT support

Might sound weird, but you can get a "soft keyboard" called StreamDeck. Saves a lot of typing if you configure it right, and you can set the buttons to do all sorts of things, not just copy paste.

[C R Mudgeon]

Re: Strange keyboards are the bane of IT support

There are also a number of web sites offering custom keyboards. No idea how good any of them are -- either for customisability or the mechanics of key action -- but they're out there.

[Victor Ludorum]

Re: Strange keyboards are the bane of IT support

As a fellow sinister human,I found this, but I'm so used to a right-handed keyboard that I'm not sure I could get on with it.

There are other products about, but obviously price and quality will vary...

[Chris Evans]

Re: Strange keyboards are the bane of IT support

This left (both) handed keyboard is a bit more reasonably priced.

https://www.cjemicros.co.uk/micros/individual/newprodpages/prodinfo.php?prodcode=A4T-USBKBDLH-BK

[big_D]

Re: Strange keyboards are the bane of IT support

Mice weren't used much, when I switched to ergonomic keyboards, I was still mainly running on terminals or terminal emulation on MS-DOS at the time. Switching to ergonomic designs helped, the pain went away. Nowadays, I keep switching back to normal keyboards, but depending on the type, I start experiencing pain within a few hours or a few days.

[big_D]

Re: Strange keyboards are the bane of IT support

When I started using computers (1980), the CTRL key was to the left of the CAPS LOCK key on the DEC VT100.

[More Jam]

Re: Strange keyboards are the bane of IT support

There is only one correct location for the caps lock key, and that is NOWHERE AT ALL.

[midgepad]

numeric pad

Nothing to stop you having a separate one, is there?

Park your calculator -derived numbers where you like, and pull through big lever as intended with your right hand.

[big_D]

I switched to ergonomic keyboards in the mid-90s due to RSI, the pain went away fairly quickly.

I've switched back to standard keyboards many times over the years, but always end up going back to ergonomic keyboards, because my wrists and forearms start to ache. The pain goes away fairly quickly after I switch back to ergonomics.

[Tubz]

I use the Corsair K57 RGB Wireless Gaming Keyboard, wired to my laptop dock during the day and charging and wireless to gaming PC and hate the thing, feels like I'm constantly misspelling or not getting a key registered. Wasn't cheap but don't feel as if it was value for money.

My favourite keyboard ever, was an ICL DRS (Black Tactile Space Invaders Switches), clicky but not overly loud and accurate key pressing and trained me up to a respectable 55 wpm.

[jake]

Over the last half century+ ...

... I've tried most[0] keyboards. I keep coming back to my Model Ms for serious writing.

There is absolutely nothing I have ever tried that allows me to put my thoughts into a computer faster, and more accurately, than a Model M combined with vi and a few key remappings. I'm a touch-typist, so I don't care about the look of the thing because I look at the screen while I type. Likewise, have no need for fancy colo(u)red keys or back lighting and other haberdashery ... in fact, the thing lives on a shelf under the desktop. Slide my hands into the slot, find the home keys, and away I go (yes, there's a mouse-substitute down there, too). For the record, the keyboard drawer seems to muffle the sound a trifle. I've thought about tacking some lead-foam around the outside of the drawer for added sound deadening, but nobody's bitching about the noise up here in the office, so ...

Recommended.

_{Exceptions include completely daft yuppie-bait costing many hundreds of dollars, and the super inexpensive, sometimes under $20 new, junk.}

[Joe W]

Re: Over the last half century+ ...

That echoes my thoughts. I'm not a touch typist, need to look down more often than I like to admit, but I'm improving. Still, while I do have a backlit keyboard, and I actually turn on the light in some cases, I apparently don't really need it, as experiments show.

So: stop caring about colour of keyboards and outside apperance, the question is: can you work with it, does it behave agreeably? And what you are looking for likely varies depending on context. Maybe I would like a colourful keyboard at home, just because it is fun (I don't, personally), maybe I want a clicky one to drive my colleagues nuts at work (I don't, I value my health, the nice young colleague I share the office with could likely break my arm withour breaking a sweat).

[Malcolm Weir]

Re: Over the last half century+ ...

For me the backlight has nothing to do with touch typing, but finding those other weird keys (page up/down, home, the stuff round the numeric keypad).

[Doctor Syntax]

I've never been very fussed about keyboards. Maybe that goes back to my old portable typewriter, bought for a tenner as soon as I got my first grant cheque at University. It was a beast with a heavy action - shift was at least 3rd finger to operate. I trusted my handwriting even less than my typing but any keyboard since has been an improvement. Nevertheless i served me well. Eventually I even had a typebar changed from some symbol I didn't use to one I needed - a tilde probably. Last time I saw it its wooden case had woodworm.

[Andy The Hat]

My remember an old Wyse terminal keyboard that I rejigged and hacked into a wooden case to replace the thing on an Amstrad CPC in 198x. Little did I know I was an influencer!

Still have a Compaq unit somewhere that is mechanically great - it doesn't float randomly around the desk because it has a massive nugget of BlackHole-ium in it's base. Just needs converters from AT to USB, doesn't have windows keys, is massive and noisy and ... ok, so it has some disadvantages ...

[Anonymous Coward]

"For most, not so bad"... bloody excellent actually.

Yet even the Model M has its problems. It isn't backlit, and excepting some ultra-rare variants is so very, very mid-'80s beige. For most, not so bad, but for those who need a black, strongly lit keyboard, the Model M's magnificence is muted.

Having a disco light show under your finger tips when trying keep your concentration on why you're typing is distracting at best and mostly extremely irritating.

The only reasons for black keyboards would be they don't show the grubbiness of the grubs using them and that black is infinitely preferable to some of the vivid rainbow colour schemes or the pastel Barbie and Ken combinations.

Quite content with boring beige... call it café au lait if you must. Reading el Rego that substance is the mostly likely contaminant to be sprayed over the keyboard.

I would guess touch typists would prefer something closely replicating the model M as ideal. Keyboards use to have a raised line on the two home keys but I am not sure that is still the case as a surprising number of those in IT etc are of the uni-digital pick and poke persuasion.

[blackcat]

Re: "For most, not so bad"... bloody excellent actually.

Oh good, someone who shares my utter dislike of light up keyboards!

Currently using an early 2000's actual Cherry brand beige PS/2 keyboard with blue switches.

[MiguelC]

Re: "For most, not so bad"... bloody excellent actually.

Lights can be useful when typing in the dark (some less used keys might not be readily available in your muscle memory), but keep them white and boring, who needs a f&#$%$#" light show?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "For most, not so bad"... bloody excellent actually.

I prefer dim reds and oranges for dark vision. It was initially for playing Elite: Dangerous but kinda stuck. Also the lighting improves contrast making things easier to see.

[GeekyOldFart]

Re: "For most, not so bad"... bloody excellent actually.

HA! Another one who did an "Elite-like" setup for fun and found they liked it so kept it for everything :) Not just the keyboard's backlight but as a low-eyestrain dark theme.

Even ported it to my work PC until manglement decided they wanted conformity and demanded IT force a corporate theme on every desktop with GPOs.

(and yes, a decade on, I'm still enjoying the game as much as I enjoyed the BBC Micro version)

[big_D]

Re: "For most, not so bad"... bloody excellent actually.

Try using a German Apple keyboard, those less used symbols, like [ ] | { } aren't even printed on the key tops, you have to remember which combination of Option + key brings them up, and using a German PC keyboard doesn't help, because Apple has them in different locations to Windows... At least the @ symbol is shown on most keyboards (Option + L)...

Apple also has a penchant for swapping the < > key (next to left shift) and the ^ ° (next to 1 key and below escape) keys randomly.

[imanidiot]

Re: "For most, not so bad"... bloody excellent actually.

yeah same here. My home keyboard is technically an RGB-backlit one (was cheaper at the time than the "solid backlight only" option strangely) with all the options for fancy key activated light effects but it's stuck on solid-red-at-low-intensity at all times.

[find users who cut cat tail]

Re: "For most, not so bad"... bloody excellent actually.

You are lucky to only use your own keyboards. If you need to do something in suboptimal light conditions on someone else's notebook – which of course has bunch of keys moved into inexplicable locations – backlight can be pretty handy.

[blackcat]

Re: "For most, not so bad"... bloody excellent actually.

True. Worse you are using a US keyboard (if you're a Brit) or an AZERTY.

[big_D]

Re: "For most, not so bad"... bloody excellent actually.

Or QWERTZ... Apple QWERTZ is the worst, most of the symbols aren't even printed on the keyboard, you have to remember which combination of Option + Shift + key brings them up, even simple things like [ ] | { } are "hidden" (Option + 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 respectively).

[Strahd Ivarius]

Re: "For most, not so bad"... bloody excellent actually.

AZERTY keyboard?

The French (Legacy) or the French (Standard)?

Or the Belgian one?

[robinsonb5]

Re: "For most, not so bad"... bloody excellent actually.

I hate keyboards that light up spontaneously, but I do have one keyboard which has a couple of different layers accessed with modifier keys - I have it set to illuminate the keys whose functions have changed, just when the modifier is pressed. I quite like that.

[Malcolm Weir]

Re: "For most, not so bad"... bloody excellent actually.

Frankly, I'm amazed that there are so many Johnny-Come-Latelies who think the Model M is the epitome of a keyboard.

The cognoscenti know the IBM Selectric II from, I'm told, 1971 reigns supreme. The Model M was just trying to emulate that without that golfball thing....

[Peter Gathercole]

Re: "For most, not so bad"... bloody excellent actually.

I do agree about IBM Selectrics. Back in my college days I took a shine to APL, and not all of the terminals could produce the character set required by this strange language. In my memory, there were some Tektronic 4010s with the APL character board, some terminals with a switch (I think they were branded Elite, but I'm talking about 45 years ago), a couple of Decwriter II's with the APL option, and.... four IBM Selectric typewriters converted to hard-copy terminals. You needed to check out the APL golf ball from the computing secretary's office to use them, but I spent quite some time on them.

The Selectric has a really positive 'clunk' when the purely mechanical push rods and springs were activated. They were really nice to type on, even though APL needed more like keyboard pecking until you knew where all of the strange characters were on the keyboard. I particularly remember how pressing the shift button caused the golf ball to change position without actually printing anything.

Most of the rest of the available terminals had pretty poor keyboards, but you used what was available. Some were passable, but I remember the utter junk that was the Newbury Labs. terminals that were attached to department PDP11 that ran Unix. It was really unusual to find every key working on the half-dozen or so that we had.

It wasn't until I came across the original IBM 5150 PC model F after I graduated that I found a really nice keyboard on a computer, but the department buying them allowed the secretaries to decide between this, or a low-profile 'silent' Cherry keyboard that I really disliked myself, and they made a bad decision (IMHO) to choose the Cherry. It cost them quite badly, because the Cherry could not cope with the punishment students subjected them to, and they kept breaking.

When the computing department upgraded some labs to AT's, they wisely chose model Ms over the Cherrys. Since then, I have been a model M convert. I still use other keyboards, mainly because the model M is a large keyboard, but I still get mine out every now and then to remember what I am missing.

[Antron Argaiv]

Re: "For most, not so bad"... bloody excellent actually.

+1 for the APL reference AND the Selectric reference. APL got me through my Linear Algebra course...I discovered that the time involved in manually inverting a 4x4 matrix was better spent learning APL so I could do it with a computer. The next year, there was a course section that used APL. I was, apparently, ahead of my time :-)

There were actually TWO variants of the 2741 terminal, the "correspondence" and "EBCDIC" code versions, which had different APL typeballs. At my university, they were almost constantly out of action, because the Selectric mechanism was just not up to the stress of full time use by students. We did have ONE Tek storage tube display terminal, which did APL, and an attempt was made by Teletype with the Model 38, but that was towards the dawn of the dot matrix and the "glass teletype", so not really a factor (and the Model 38 Teletypes had their own issues related to trying to strtch the Model 33 design beyond its limits).

My small contribution to the APL terminal inventory came as an engineer for Data General, when I modified the low-cost D200 terminal firmware to allow display of the APL overstruck characters (to work with DG's version of APL for the MV/8000). It was a clever (if I do say so myself) design which sold...not at all well. APL was just too "niche" for the mainstream.

[ChoHag]

Re: "For most, not so bad"... bloody excellent actually.

> Keyboards use to have a raised line on the two home keys but I am not sure that is still the case

My keyboard is not very modern but it too no longer has the raised bumps on the F and J keys. They wore down.

You can still see where they used to be if the light is right.

[PRR]

Re: "For most, not so bad"... bloody excellent actually.

> Keyboards use to have a raised line on the two home keys but I am not sure that is still the case as a surprising number of those in IT etc are of the uni-digital pick and poke persuasion.

I am a 2-finger typist since manual typewriter era. But when I had to use a KB with no home-key tiddies, I tapped my soldering iron on those keys. Tactile bumps, free.

[Screwed]

Re: "For most, not so bad"... bloody excellent actually.

The two keyboards within sight - MacBook Pro and Logitech iPad keyboard - neither brand new, but not old, have raised dashes on the F and J keys.

I never notice them when typing - indeed I have no idea how I position my fingers when typing. It just happens!

[m4r35n357]

All very well, but . . .

The CTRL-key is in the wrong place!

[Joe W]

Re: All very well, but . . .

Yeah, drives me nuts, can usually be changed in some config file. Like with the laptops. I HATE them doing the "ooh, media keys are sooo important" and putting the "function" crutch to the far left....

[cdegroot]

Re: All very well, but . . .

Hear, hear. And there's just one Alt. No Super or Meta in sight.

[atheist]

Re: All very well, but . . .

I once saw an APL keyboard with seven modifier keys, in a technical college.

[m4r35n357]

Re: All very well, but . . .

Someone should make a brainfuck keyboard ;)

[Greybearded old scrote]

Re: All very well, but . . .

Or a Perl one, with all the sigils on the home row.

[Someone Else]

Re: All very well, but . . .

Seems they did...that APL keyboard referenced just above your comment...

[Antron Argaiv]

Re: All very well, but . . .

At one point, you could get stickers for the Selectric keyboards to convert non-APL to APL. Without the stickers, you stood no chance.

EDIT: You still can, though not in IBM grey: https://www.tindie.com/products/russtopia/apl-keyboard-symbol-sticker-set/

(wonder how many he sells a year...)

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: All very well, but . . .

Space cadet keyboard? Control alt shift meta super hyper esc(?)

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: All very well, but . . .

Escape-Meta-Alt-Control-Shift

[juice]

The best keyboard...

... is generally the one you grew up with.

I've never been too fussed about what style of keyboard I use; the main thing is the /angle/ of the keyboard; I know it goes against RSI principles, but I'm far more comfortable (and RSI free, after thirty-ish years of tapping away) with having a ~10 degree angle. So much so, that I've been known to superglue risers onto the back of modern "flat" keyboards!

With that said, there was something nice about the older "clackity" keyboards; back when I was working for a big telecomms company, there was a point where they were doing a major purge of obsolete PC technology, which included large swatches of Model-M style keyboards from Dell and the like.

I half regret not picking some of them up, though equally: these all dated from Ancient Times, so used the massive DIN plugs rather than PS2, and lacked the various meta-keys which have been tacked on since by Microsoft et al. Though I suspect some people would consider this to be a bonus ;)

[Dan 55]

Re: The best keyboard...

... is generally the one you grew up with.

There speaks someone who didn't start with a ZX Spectrum.

[KittenHuffer]

Re: The best keyboard...

I'll see you, and raise you a ZX-81!

[Tubz]

Re: The best keyboard...

Call with a ZX-80.

[Neil Barnes]

Re: The best keyboard...

<Cough> MK14

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: The best keyboard...

Personally a fan of DELL's chunky "real keys" keyboard (L100) it's also full size but sculptured to just the keys, so doesn't need a desk extension like the IBM

[Gary Stewart]

Re: The best keyboard...

<Cough, Cough> Teletype Model 33 and ADM-3A.

[C R Mudgeon]

Re: The best keyboard...

Uh huh. Apparently the reason the basic Unix commands are so short -- "cp", "mv" etc. -- is that they were using Teletypes (whether that precise model, I don't know), and "every keystroke was torture". (Sorry, I don't have a source for that; it's hearsay.) Hence also /dev/tty*, stty(1), etc. -- "tty" is short for "Teletype". IIRC the man pages once actually referred to them as such instead of as "terminals".

ADM = "American Dream Machine", believe it or not. Somebody had a rather inflated sense of self-worth...

[juice]

Re: The best keyboard...

> There speaks someone who didn't start with a ZX Spectrum.

Actually... I started with a +2 :) But yeah - there was a reason I said generally!

I mean, don't get me wrong: as the article notes, there's something fabulous about touch-typing at speed on a mechanical keyboard; it's like firing a gatling gun!

But at the same time, a decent membrane keyboard is good enough and doesn't lead to people hammering on your bedroom door at 4am when you've been struck by the coding muse.

Certainly, they're better than the modern low-profile keyboards which are all the vogue these days, especially when it comes to Apple hardware.

[Dan 55]

Re: The best keyboard...

Started with a +2 keyboard? Luxury. I started with a 16K and upgraded to 48K then a 48K+ keyboard and then got the +2.

That and a Multiface 128 and a +D and the world was your oyster, for a couple of years at least.

[Malcolm Weir]

Re: The best keyboard...

Ah, but having a mechanical "type head" (either the Selectric's golfball or a card punch) put some real mechanical feedback! When you pressed a key, something (else) went _thunk_!

[C R Mudgeon]

Re: The best keyboard...

The keyboard on the IBM 2741 (the terminal based on the Selectric) had a different type of feedback too -- it would lock whenever the computer was unable to accept input.[1] When locked, you couldn't physically depress the keys. There was some CRT terminal that IBM had on their mainframes that I think did the same thing.

[1] Which it all too often couldn't. Too many users meant slooow response times, and there was no typeahead. We'd stack up several commands on one line by typing CTRL-J at the end of each one instead of hitting the Return key. That wouldn't submit the command line yet, so you could keep typing, but when you finally did hit Return, the system would treat the CTRL-Js as line breaks and run each command in turn.

[EricM]

Re: the one you grew up with.

I actually "grew up" typing on ZX81 and C64 ... so: no, I cannot support your hypothesis :)

[Captain Hogwash]

Re: The best keyboard...

Is the one you have with you. That's always worked for me.

[AJ MacLeod]

Re: The best keyboard...

"DIN" plug (AT) isn't a problem - you can (I do) use an AT-PS/2 converter plugged into a PS/2-USB converter

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The best keyboard...

I grew up with a Commodore 64. That keyboard was serviceable, but the ergonomics weren't.

[Daedalus]

Re: The best keyboard...

I have to admit of fond memories of the Teletype ASR33 keyboard, which resembled nothing so much as the chord buttons on an accordion. Something about the bounceback that helped your fingers jump to the next key. Although I should admit that at that point I was a one finger on each hand typist.

As for noise: seriously, clacky keys are a problem? Try working where the PA is blaring, the sales droids are yakking, Loud Howard in on speakerphone (yes, I did encounter a real version of the Dilbert character), and the idiot in the next cube is talking all around the point while the people on the other end of the call are seething. And old style telephone bells, and even their electronic replacements. Eee, these modern youngsters don't know when they're well off.

Of course, IBM would have the best keyboard, having created that marvel, the Selectric typewriter. Probably my wife learned on that, because even with a flat Mac keyboard she can still be heard hammering away. It's not the keyboard, it's the fingers that make the noise.

Thanks to the confusion caused by the lockdown, the vacation of the office premises etc., I came into possession of a couple of good Dell keyboards, which I intend to use until my mentis is no longer compos, which may not be far off.

Till then,

Farewell IBM PS/2 keyboard

You live on in our memories

While we still have them

(E.J. Thribb, 13 3/4)

[cmdrklarg]

Re: The best keyboard...

My favorite would have to be the older Microsoft Internet Keyboard. For me the layout and feel of the keys were just right. Didn't really use the extra buttons either.

If they could build new ones with USB or even wireless I'd likely buy one.

[druck]

Re: The best keyboard...

I grew up on the BBC Micro (which had a CAPS and a Shift lock key), but my favourite keyboard was the one on the Archimedes A310 closely followed by the A5000. Great feel, reassuringly loud, and CTRL on the home row where it should be. It was a US layout, but we didn't realise until the RISC PC came with a UK layout and had to re-learn everything. It also had a beautiful symmetry of the main group, and most importantly; red function keys.

[abufrejoval]

XT vs AT keyboards (Re: The best keyboard...)

With IBM the switch occured with the launch of the PC-AT in 1986. Before it was 10 function keys on the left, an integrated keypad on the right that would toggle between edit and numbers, the control key left of A, no Alt-GR and a DIN connector with a very different electrical protocol than the AT variants, so that mainboard had to support both during a transition period, mostly 80386 variants.

Obviously I preferred the XT variant, because that's how I started, but also because nearly all of the early editors were written before keypads came around so switching between text entry and navigation via the control-key was rather essential. I loved it, too, because it meant that I didn't have to take my fingers off the home keys and the eyes off the screen, which would otherwise waste precious brain cycles to re-orient on the problem to solve rather than how to get the code entered.

The biggest problem arose, when I used computers more to enter text, because text was often enough written in German, which has the three öäü umlauts and an sz-dieresis ß, which have rather regular frequency in written text. Because their positions in German keyboards are used for equally common special symbols in programming, those symbols had to be moved elsewhere.

During XT-times, the only viable solution was to switch keyboard layouts between US-ASCII and a German variant and while I was very comfortable with using both, I was never that comfortable with the complex keyboard acrobatics used for the switching itself, worst when you had to start documenting code in German.

The introduction of Alt-GR with the AT keyboards created a middle ground, where switching was no longer required, but a lot of symbols like brackes and curly braces required a bit of Alt-GR acrobatics, which I managed to do still without seriously leaving the home-keys too far for a blind resume.

Many editors also started to support the keypad, but that had seen some very unfortunate changes with the AT, mostly a split between cursor and numbers (programmers don't need numbers) and the move of the escape key away from the edit-pad, where it truly belonged.

As I started more human languages to my portfolio, the ugly head of having to switch keyboard layouts again reared its head. Spanish wasn't so bad, because it mostly kept the normal keys in place and it was mostly transitioning between umlauts and some new diacritical marks like ñ or the inverted ¿question? or ¡shout!

With French and AZERTY that would have been a Dvorak scale change, which I mostly avoided because speaking it turned out good enough, most of the written stuff was accepted in good old English.

I never cared that much about function keys, by the time I had found them, used them and re-homed my fingers, I could have written a whole set of commands. I just don't use them, unless I really have to.

The very strong preference for using keys and without looking down came because I started using keyboards as a pianist and on Steinways, too.

Also I have enjoyed long fingers, which where the envy of many of my piano teachers, as pianos were designed by male chauvinist pigs with larger hands.

And then those fingers automatically line up properly over the home row with the elbows on both sides of my belly or resting on a chair: they are pre-curved to suit normal keyboards, ergonomy is built-in.

And on top I took a typing class at high-school as an exchange student in the US. It gave me a head-start in IT that have always been immensely grateful for.

I salvaged several original XT and AT keyboards from idiots which just didn't know what they were throwing away, all including proper IBM labels.

But I did actually discard the XT variants, both because they would no longer work (easily) with modern computers (where PS/2 to USB remaines easy to this day) and because their original layout advantages eventually because more of a liability: I just wasn't coding enough any more to make that worthwhile.

But I've even switched to a Cherry for daily use now, because I game more: Original AT keyboards can't support more than 2 pressed normal keys, which is never an issue in typing, but a very basic need in games: it became a matter of life and death!

I preserve two AT originals for my memoires, both because the fingers start deteriorating and because the feel is just so much better than anything else.

Too bad there is just no way to fit those into an ultrabook...

[Edwin]

Ergonomic keyboards...

I've been using these since the very first 5 pin full-size DIN Microsoft Natural, and my RSI has not come back.

The pain point remains the haptic feedback - after being forced by colleagues in the open plan to abandon my last iteration of the MS Natural, I've been working with the sculpt and - since its demise - a Logitec K860. Haptically not bad, but I miss the key-bashing joy of a proper keyboard.

[cdegroot]

Re: Ergonomic keyboards...

Another good reason not to accept Open Pen office jobs.

Typing happily away on my super loud mechanical keyboard while WFH...

(Canadian Mattias makes their own brand of mechanical switches including a silent one for said employee holding areas but I like the loud Gateron switches on my Keychron Q11 better)

[blu3b3rry]

I've always tended to be a bit of a cheapskate with keyboards- perhaps to my detriment as it took ages for me to find one I actually liked.

At home attached to the gaming PC is a Mad Catz STRIKE 4 (believe it has Cherry Red switches), purchased for about £35 on sale down from about £80. The RGB isn't my thing but it's a nice thing to type and game on. This was the end of a long road - first a Kensington low profile keyboard that flexed badly and was generally crap, then a off-brand Amazon special "Gaming Keyboard" (I think it was a VictSing) which was okay for what it cost. Being metal bodied it typed nicely if being rather clattery, but the springs started to get weak after five or so years of use.

One surprisingly good keyboard now in use at work on my bench is what Lenovo call a "Lenovo Preferred Pro II USB Keyboard" (model KHHB21). It's only a standard membrane keyboard but has a nice heavyweight feel to it, and types incredibly nicely for something that appears to have been bundled with a desktop PC (although odd as we're mainly a HP place). Feels just right for my usage especially when paired with a gel wrist rest. It also looks like a boring generic crappy keyboard so an additional bonus is no-one is going to try and nick it, which happens all the time with the Logitech wireless sets around the offices.....

It's also super quiet which is a bonus when I'm sat a short distance away from three others in a workshop with plenty of heavy and sharp tools to hand. I think any Cherry Blue switched keyboard would quickly become either "wireless" or "very low profile" if used for any length of time....

[Fr. Ted Crilly]

If you like that try a IBM SK-8809, they can be had with usb ports too although mine hasn't sadly. Still going strong despite following me around in various jobs and getting on 20 years old.

[that one in the corner]

> I think any Cherry Blue switched keyboard would quickly become either "wireless" or "very low profile" if used for any length of time....

One Good Thing about using Cherry switches nowadays is that they are very easily swapped. So if the blues turn out not be your thing, you can get a bag of another colour and make the change. There are more than enough people with expensive microphones making YT videos about keyboard sounds - or just get (borrow, or try out in store for the lucky half dozen who actually have a real computer store to visit) a taster board, with one of each.

You can even mix'n'match - leave the ESC key clicky, to warn when you hit it by accident ("where fid that dialogue box go? Oh, yeah, it clicked away"). Set the Windows key at 20 Newtons to remind yourself not to do that. You can even get fakes, so the Copilot key resolutely does nothing but doesn't ruin the aesthetic like prying it out snd leaving hole would.

[Anonymous Coward]

I glued some little bits of closed cell foam under the CAPS LOCK keycap, so it can't be inadvertently tapped, but can be deliberately forced down if you really mean it.

[DavidEd]

Bluetooth needed

A decent keyboard needs Bluetooth connection. Get rid of all those nasty wires snaking across the desk. Those old model Ms with their DIN connectors won't even plug in to a modern computer.

[Joe W]

Re: Bluetooth needed

My keyboard lives on my desk. I don't need the desk to be pristine and empty, and I never plug / unplug the thing. And a cable means there's no batteries that can run flat. Same with the trackball I use. Batteries... suck.

[RockBurner]

Re: Bluetooth needed

Cats can't chew radio signals...

[Kitten Tikka Masala]

Re: Bluetooth needed

"Cats can't chew radio signals..."

Yet ... It's just a matter of time and evolution...

[Joe W]

Re: Bluetooth needed

The German version of the BoFH suggested tooth paste once. Don't know if it works IRL.

[phuzz]

Re: Bluetooth needed

Clove oil works to stop puppies from chewing cables, I have yet to test it on my cat.

[Fr. Ted Crilly]

Re: Bluetooth needed

Kensington Expert track ball?

One at home one at work ;-)

[Joe W]

Re: Bluetooth needed

Currently at work, so I don't know. I think it's one of the first USB Logitech ones, ball moved with the thumb. I had one with the trackball in the centre, but that one is PS/2. Might still be kicking around somewhere, so I might abuse it for some project or another.

[that one in the corner]

Re: Bluetooth needed

> Those old model Ms with their DIN connectors won't even plug in to a modern computer.

Funny that, there is a full-fat DIN on the end of my current keyboard cable and - clack, clack - yup, it's talking to my PC.

Maybe 2022 is too old to be "modern"? Ooh, look, one size adapter later and it plugs into the box built from new parts in January this year. Was there a sudden change to PC design in March that I missed?

I can even plug it into *this* (inexpensive - cheap, even) adapter and it talks USB HID*.

* No, real old-fashioned serial kbd to real USB, not one of these weird half'n'half keyboard interfaces they had for a while.

[Roland6]

Re: Bluetooth needed

>” Those old model Ms with their DIN connectors won't even plug in to a modern computer.’

Funny how people don’t like borrowing “old stuff”.

When I worked in pre-sales, I deliberately set my mouse to be left handed and used a keyboard that required an adaptor. Never once had my computer touched, even though those around my desk had been borrowed for some urgent purpose…

I suspect part of the problem is that having effectively grown up with changing tech, I hung on the various free adaptors, so have a small collection of keyboard/mouse adaptors covering 5-pin DIN, PS/2, USB and the.various RS-232 sockets (interestingly, I use my USB to (full spec.) RS-232 adaptor several times a year. Although my collection of video adaptors are gathering dust.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Bluetooth needed

And the borrow resistant RPN calculator.

[Antron Argaiv]

Re: Bluetooth needed

V41 running in WINE right now :-)

[tonkei]

Re: Bluetooth needed

Do these work in the bios?

[Natalie Gritpants Jr]

"we use our most sensitive, precise and exquisitely constructed anatomy to directly control it"

I am never going to borrow your keyboard

[HuBo]

Re: "we use our most sensitive, precise and exquisitely constructed anatomy to directly control it"

... especially after yet another (metaphoric?) "crisply choreographed digital deluge" ... (say hello to my sticky keys!) ...

[Doctor Syntax]

Perhaps insisting on a noisy keyboard will result in being left to work from home or else being tucked ay in a remote corner of the office away from everyone else's din.

[phuzz]

That's a feature not a bug.

[LazLong]

The keyboard of the gods

The keyboard of the gods is the original Model M with a built-in TrackPoint. Period.

[Kevin Johnston]

Re: The keyboard of the gods

I miss the Compaq 'server' keyboard I had which included a small trackball. I had that for many years until I tragically ran over the cable when moving some heavy kit around, I was so angry I had done that I threw it away in the hope my shame went with it...what a mistake to make

[l8gravely]

Re: The keyboard of the gods

I stil have, but don't use, a Northgate OmniKey Ultra T keywhich which I used to love. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northgate_Computer_Systems for a picture. But having a number pad which I don't use at all very much was just bad for my right wrist carpal tunnel, so I've moved to a tenkeyless CODE from www.wasdkeyboards.com, but it looks like they've died and gone the way of the dodo. Which is sad.

I need to start looking for another backlit board with really really really solid keycaps, doubleshot that let the light through. Suggestions?

[NickHolland]

Re: The keyboard of the gods

I've got a Model M with trackpoint.

Good, because it's a model M.

Trackpoint, I find useless because only two button mouse. I live off the roller and third button, it seems.

I picked up a Unicomp with trackball. The thing has eight buttons, two sets of four. Two buttons in each set aren't even hooked to anything, and the "right/left" click buttons I found useless due to lacking the roller/third button. I was incredibly disappointed by the lack of evolution in the Unicomp boards. Are they good basic keyboards? Absolutely. Worth the money. But having unusable buttons on the trackball was ... wow. ouch.

[seven of five]

Noise? What noise?

In The Begining, there was darkness. Then, a certain *clicketyclack* was heard...

People stopped complaining about the noise of my Model M. Actually, my office neighbour converted to a Model M himself a while ago. And, having discovered Al Namrood recently, no one can hear our keyboards anyway.

[IanRS]

Re: Noise? What noise?

Did they stop complaining only after you battered them to death with it? They are generally up to the job.

[seven of five]

Re: Noise? What noise?

Nah, just told them to fuck off. Couldn't be arsed to unplug the keyboard and go after them. Apparently, being told to get lost in increasingly expletive manner makes people go away.

[steelpillow]

"there is no master key smith dedicated to developing the art and artistry of creation"

Not for want of trying.

I grew up with the Model M and its ilk, and always found them a bit clunky. Too much travel, not a crisp enough feel. Always looking for better. My current has modest travel, adequately light touch, click feel better but could be better still. Gentle clicky rattle but no more. Yet it's a super-cheapo £10 membrane+keytops toy from some retail box-shifter, though one with the grace to set them all up to try-before-buy. These toys often don't last more than a few years, so I keep a couple of spares.

The problem is twofold. Punters seldom buy for UX, they buy on price, fashion and perceived quality. The market dominators deliver on that, and don't need to refine the UX. Secondly. an independent Designer with any originality or finesse will immediately change the obsolescent layout for something funkier. Of the 1,000 punters who come across the offering, there will be 2,0000 views on why it's no better. To paraphrase our Vulture: once you're used to swimming in PC Layout shit, why bother to change the water? For example, who ever sits at their desk all day, manually entering streams of numbers through a numeric keypad duplicating some of the main keys, and which is upside down compared to a phone? Lappies dumped it years ago, but desktops? Humbug! But you try to sell that through market channels.

The best mobile keyboard from way back when was the Psion Series 5. Its designer, Martin Riddiford, got almost everything right. Keys were a bit firm, and its small size meant that the biggest-fingered folk couldn't do more than poke at it like all the others, but it was undoubtedly the jewel in the crown of the PDA revolution. When Planet resurrected the form factor for the Gemini, they hired Martin to update his act too. Lighter touch, cleaner feel, truly the new gold standard. Later they went gimmicky, were pinched for cash, and thought they didn't need him. Back to the shitpond.

So yeah, there is/was a master keysmith. But nobody cares.

[I am the liquor]

Numeric keypad

Isn't it the phone keypad that's upside down? Phones have 0 after 9 because of how electromechanical phone exchanges worked a hundred years ago, when zero really meant 10.

Numeric keypads are still common on larger laptops that have the space to accommodate them, and personally I still find it useful. (I find the "innovative" placement of insert/delete/home/end/PigUp/PigDn on most laptops more of a frustration.)

Conversely, there is a reasonable choice of desktop keyboards without it. Even a Unicomp Model M!

[JWLong]

Re: Numeric keypad

It was the phone company that turned the numeric keypad upside down to slow down data entry clerks from overrunning the touchtone computers of the time.

[steelpillow]

Re: Numeric keypad

Really? You mean Bell Labs developed DTMF as a computer input device? Sounds a bit The Shockwave Rider to me. What computers would those have been?

[PRR]

Re: Numeric keypad

> Bell Labs developed DTMF as a computer input device?

The box in the CO which decoded TouchTone was a computer, even though it didn't do DOOM or FaceBook.

The predecessor, the rotary dial, was widely used as a data entry device. One of the very early DIGITAL catalogs listed a module with a dial. It works great with stepping switches.

[JWLong]

Re: Numeric keypad

ADC

Analog to Digital Converter

[Antron Argaiv]

Re: Numeric keypad

They did a study.

https://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/browse/document-repository/catalogs-manuals/bell-system-we/pubs-docs/bstj-bell-system-technical-journal/13719-60jul-bstj-p995-design-and-use-of-pushbutton-tel-sets/file

[Herby]

Re: Numeric keypad

The DTMF (TouchTone) keypad was to be used in telephone work. One fo the main reasons for the keypad having "123" at the top is that the telephone dial (rotary dial) has 1 at the top, and "0" at the bottom. Adding machine keypads ("123" above zero) like computer keypads are designed for fast operation (time is money!) and most of the digits used are in the "123" row.

So: two different used, two different layouts.

Me: I had the keypad changed to the telephone layout when I spec'd the terminal for use in a telephone answering service (back in the early 80's).

[Antron Argaiv]

Re: Numeric keypad

The DTMF receivers can decode a digit in milliseconds (I believe the spec is 40ms). The arrangement used (see the study I posted) is the one with the least errors and fastest dialling speed (a DTMF receiver is shared among callers, so you want to minimise the time any one caller occupies it)

[Rich 2]

Dygma

I bought a Dygma keyboard a couple of years back. Took some getting used to but being able to split it into two and (critically) angle the two halves out (I don’t mean the “tenting” thing which I personally just don’t get at all) helps enormously with my RSI (it means your wrists don’t have to bend out). It has cherry brown keys (you can choose what you want) if I recall correctly - very good feel but much quieter than the blue.

Anyway I just thought I’d mention it - recommend. The only downside is it’s bloody expensive (not at all helped by the import tax from Spain because someone thought it was a good idea to leave the EU - FFS)

[Czrly]

I have thoughts. And das Keyboard.

Having typed a lot -- as a proper touch-typist -- and, of that, I've typed about 60% program code (in many programming languages) and 40% natural language, that latter split about 90% English, 10% German -- I have thoughts about keyboard design. I'm also a pianist.

I think the thing that makes mechanical keyboards seem noisy has nothing to do with the switch but rather with the way the key's action encourages the user to type and bottom-out the keys. It's the plastic cap hitting the back-plate that's loud, not the Cherry Blue switch (continuing the article's mention of that, the One True Switch) passing the activation point in the stroke but, simultaneously, the great mechanical positive reinforcement cycle of the Cherry Blue's action absolutely does feed-back to the human being at the keyboard and result in the kind of striking that results in an LTE: Loud Typing Event.

The solution is clearly apparent: designs should focus on key switches that have lots of physical feedback connected with their actual activation point and then deaden the noise by damping the bottom-out clack. Users then will learn to percieve the real actuation and not miss the lack of a clack.

Importantly, the dampener cannot be rubber and must not spring the key-cap back upwards because that feels "bouncy". It needs to be very thin, but accept just the right amount of deformation on impact to deaden the sound without feeling "squishy". (I'd guess cork would be GREAT, but far too pricey) I'd draw the response curve I'd want, personally, but not in ASCII art because I'm tying on a laptop keyboard, here, and I think we can be unanimous on declaiming those as the worst. (Also: I don't have spell-check, apparently. Thanks, Firefox.)

Unfortunately, though, there really is NO innovation in the keyboard world, alas, and what innovation there is is focussed on entirely the wrong things: RGB lighting and adding proprietary and useless extra features that don't work because the only way to use them is with the manufacturer's proprietary and non-functional "driver" bloatware: here we find the true realm of their innovation in excelling at making something as terrible as imaginable in some kind of sordid bid to be worst.

I have a keyboard in a cupboard that is also a mouse. The proprietary software thingy is also a mouse driver. Why? Because the keyboard has no pointing device features but, by using that bloatware, you can remape the scupper'd "mouse"'s "scroll wheel" to control your audio volume! Sometimes. On a good day, one ending in the letter ':qa!'

That brings me to my own personal favourite which I do carry with me like a gilded Morse key, to coding jobs: the das Keyboard 4. Personally, I find the Cherry Brown switches to be a nice near-equivalent to the Blue with just a little less activation feedback but enough to never create mis-strikes or suffer button bounce (I've used Razor stupid-premium "Optical" swiches that literally double-press themselves because of button bounce!) and the Brown are a little more socially acceptible, I find, from listening to the peanut gallery.

The das Keyboard's volume wheel sends scan codes for media volume up/down and works on every desktop OS, without any drivers. It has a bomber aluminium front-plate that makes it seem like you could drive a Panzer over it without worry. It uses only a single USB A port but has a built in USB 3.0 hub that literally is the best USB 3.0 hub I have ever used, ever! (To those in the know: I can connect to `adb` debugging on Android devices without needing to scrounge up the Specially Annointed USB cable when using my das Keyboard's hub. Any semi-decent cable will do. It's like magic!)

They don't like wine, tea or beer, though. Since I discovered the das Keyboard about ... er... well over a decade ago, I've killed three with those beverages, respectively. (One actually still works (mostly) but sometimes registers an extra right-shift when pressing many keys at once which leads to wierd surprises when coding, a lot.)

[I am the liquor]

Re: I have thoughts. And das Keyboard.

On the IBM buckling spring keyboards, the spring is a pretty significant part of the noise, as is the key "topping out" when you lift your finger off it.

[Jou (Mxyzptlk)]

Re: I have thoughts. And das Keyboard.

Well, the switch point of the blues is loud. When I had a cherry blue I slowly adjusted not to hit out to the bottom, but only to the click point. But that is still too loud.

Does anyone know a keyboard which requires only 35kN or 30 kN, with Cherry red silence, but cherry blue action point feeling? The Cherry Red-Silent is still 45kN...

[Dan 55]

Re: I have thoughts. And das Keyboard.

Gateron Silent White?

[upsidedowncreature]

Re: I have thoughts. And das Keyboard.

"Only" 35 or 30 kN? 45kN? Your office must be *very* noisy, and I bet you get through a lot of desks.

[Dan 55]

Re: I have thoughts. And das Keyboard.

Hulk smash!

[Someone Else]

Re: I have thoughts. And das Keyboard.

here we find the true realm of their innovation in excelling at making something as terrible as imaginable in some kind of sordid bid to be worst.

The Oxford English (or Merriam-Webster, depending on your location) definition of enshittification...

[lglethal]

Silent mechanical keyboards for the win

For me the best keyboard I've ever had (and am currently using) is the Fnatic Gear Rush Silent. Yes it's a gaming keyboard, but it has only a red backlight (no RGB bollocks), perfect for usage at night. It has that solid mechanical feel, with great travel, and it uses Cherry MX Silent switches, which means that for a mechanical keyboard it's no louder then a standard membrane Keyboard. Meaning even with my bashing away hard at the keys, my family can live with the noise, without wanting to murder me where I sit.

For me, it's proof that you can make a keyboard with the right feel of a mechanical keyboard without the anti-social clickety clack of the full fat Model M's.

Unfortunately, Fnatic dont seem to be building the Rush Silent anymore, so here's hoping this one lasts a while longer, because finding the right keyboard is a right pain in the ........ wrist...

[Anonymous Coward]

Pondering..

.. with the contribution of Linux to our world today, basically democratizing tech.. why doesnt he have a Noble peace prize?

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: Pondering..

Isn't he responsible for extending the Vi/Emacs schism beyond the computer lab, the millions that died in the Gnome/KDE wars and ultimately the Snap/Flatpack jihad that destroyed Earth ?

[stiine]

Re: Pondering..

Because he's not royalty.

[GNU Enjoyer]

Re: Pondering..

Maybe Linus would deserve a Noble peace prize if his kernel was 100% free software and it was licensed under the GPLv2-or-later - but it isn't.

By the same lieu that those who write helpful programs deserved to be rewarded, those who write proprietary software, or are complacent in proprietary abuses (i.e. take a fat salary in exchange for doing absolutely nothing about bad things happening to others) rather deserve to be punished.

I wonder why nobody ever mentions putting GNU up for a Noble peace prize despite all the good it has done? (far more than Linux ever did)

[Antron Argaiv]

Re: Pondering..

OK, Linux vs GNU is a dead issue. When people refer to Linux, they generally mean GNU/Linux, and Torvalds has never downplayed the importance of the GNU part.

And my personal belief is that if the only way you can get the functionality into the OS is by using non-free code, then go right ahead. Without the regrettable proprietary blobs, Linux couldn't be as popular as it is. We'd all like GPL'd Bluetooth, WiFi and display code, but it ain't gonna happen, so let's make the best of an OS which is a lot more free than Windows and at least we have a choice.

With all his faults, Torvalds has managed to provide an alternative to Windows, and for that I thank him.

[GNU Enjoyer]

Re: Pondering..

>Linux vs GNU is a dead issue.

Despite how hard businesses and people try to kill freedom, it refuses to die.

>When people refer to Linux, they generally mean GNU/Linux

If they really meant that, they would just say; "GNU", as that is shorter to say or write.

In all cases where I've seen GNU/Linux (or GNU+Linux or LiGNUx or GNU with Linux or just GNU) been called "Linux", people have either been mislead and think it's "just Linux"; https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-users-never-heard-of-gnu.html or know that the OS is GNU and is intentionally misleading others.

>Torvalds has never downplayed the importance of the GNU part.

He certainly has - he has stated he's happy to take credit for things he didn't do.

If his intention was not to downplay the importance of GNU, he would have said to please call his kernel; Linux and to please call the combination of his kernel with GNU; GNU+Linux - but he has not.

>if the only way you can get the functionality into the OS is by using non-free code, then go right ahead.

It has been claimed many times that the only way the GNU OS could have functionality is to include proprietary software, but it's 100% free software and it certainly isn't lacking in functionality.

>Without the regrettable proprietary blobs, Linux couldn't be as popular as it is.

Well there it is; `People try to justify adding nonfree software in the name of the “popularity of Linux”—in effect, valuing popularity above freedom. Adding nonfree software to the GNU/Linux system may increase the popularity, if by popularity we mean the number of people using some of GNU/Linux in combination with nonfree software. But at the same time, it implicitly encourages the community to accept nonfree software as a good thing, and forget the goal of freedom. It is not good to drive faster if you can't stay on the road.`- https://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.en.html

The sole reason the OS exists is to be 100% free software and while adding more and more proprietary software leads to increased popularity and therefore is driving faster, it is driving in the wrong direction.

>We'd all like GPL'd Bluetooth, WiFi and display code, but it ain't gonna happen

It certainly isn't going to happen if you ruinously compromise and put the proprietary software in and never take it back out; https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/compromise.html

But it would be quite easy to achieve if the GPLv2 was enforced - just like how GNU advised MCC that its GCC extension of a C++ front end must be released as free software (or not released at all) and how they advised NeXT that their extension to GCC to implement an Objective-C frontend must be released as free software (or not released at all), it would be quite trivial for Linux copyright holders to require that any and all extensions of Linux must be released in source form under the GPLv2-{only,or-later} or under a compatible license (or not released at all).

Maybe a handful of malicious businesses wouldn't do so (the users really should be defended from those businesses, rather than assisting such business's schemes), but when made to, most business turn out to not have a problem with respecting the users freedom after all and the result would be free software bluetooth, Wi-Fi and GPU peripheral software (this wouldn't end up impacting popularity either, as if there is only a handful of peripheral devices to reverse engineer, then it's feasible to develop free software for all of them).

Alas, those Linux copyright holders almost never enforce their license.

>let's make the best of an OS which is a lot more free than Windows and at least we have a choice.

A proprietary GNU/Linux distro is merely less proprietary than windows - it's not "more free", as you don't have have the 4 freedoms with all the software.

One of the core tenets of proprietary software is to never give the user a choice.

>With all his faults, Torvalds has managed to provide an alternative to Windows, and for that I thank him.

He has not done that and that was never his goal.

His goal was to write an alternative to MINIX, but he only ever got around to writing a kernel.

GNU has provided the replacement to windows (as the goal was to provide a fully free OS), although Linus (and many others) happens to provide one essential part (out of the many essential parts).

While I thank Linus for releasing a free kernel from 1992-1995 and give him credit for that, I do not thank him for releasing a proprietary kernel in 1991 and allowing Linux to become proprietary software again in 1996 (but thankfully some GNU developers have provided a free distribution of Linux; GNU Linux-libre and I thank them for that).

[Kitten Tikka Masala]

The thing is...

If you're a developer then you should have your own office so the keyboard sound won't bother anyone.

If you're being put in a kube farm or, shudder, a fully open-plan office as a developer then having a loud keyboard is a must to protest not being given the right no-distractions working conditions to fully boost your productivity.

[that one in the corner]

chutzpah to duke it out with annoyed colleagues.

Which is where the Model M (or Northgate Omnikey Ultra - even larger!) really comes into its own.

One swift smack from a solid metal based case and the average cheap keyboard will pop its keycaps.

[Antron Argaiv]

Re: chutzpah to duke it out with annoyed colleagues.

...and so will the annoyed colleague. Or, at least, so claims the BOFH.

[ecofeco]

Can't see the difference?

Honestly, people can't see the difference?

Dear god we're doomed.

IBM key board: Contrasting colors on the peripherals keys to help your.... wait for it... peripheral vision.

Modern keyboard: black on black on black and maybe grey lettering. At best. Now add distracting flashing lights if you want to get suckered, er, I mean fancy.

Funny things happen to highly technical scenarios where the priests, er, techs and engineers forget the basics and remember only the chants and liturgy and go full ouroboros while gatekeeping across the moat.

And not "haha" funny.

[Bill Gray]

Re: Can't see the difference?

black on black on black

Your name is Hotblack Desiato and I claim my £5.

Such idiocy didn't bother me as a PFY (and doesn't bother me now on a keyboard, because I touch-type). But at age 60, endless electronic devices that I don't use often enough to use by touch require me to take off glasses, take device over to a bright light, and squint to see where the buttons are and what they say on them. In some cases, a bit of Wite-Out® (Tipp-Ex™ on the east side of the Atlantic) can help make a button stand out. But the plastic for a button/switch should never be exactly the same color as a device's case.

Must admit that were I a forty-year-old building such things, I probably wouldn't have even thought about such matters.

[stiine]

Re: Can't see the difference?

If you're going to learn to touch type, using an unlit keyboard in the dark is the only way to fly.

[Richard 12]

Re: Can't see the difference?

Backlit keys are great.

A dim glow with some colour coding for mode and special keys is a wonderful thing, especially when working in the dark.

Backlight control software is horrific, because out of the box it cannot do any of the above.

On the bright side, now that backlit standard keyboards are so common, the actual keys themselves are far cheaper so building custom backlit keyboards with custom legends is affordable.

[Chris Gray 1]

will try it...

OK, you've prodded me enough.

They keyboard I'm using now says "Logitech K200" and it has worked fine for me for several years. The main problem is that some of the legend paint has worn off. I'm a touch typist (staring at the screen now), but sometimes the XCV bunch gets me.

I bought a mechanical keyboard a few years back at a local computer-ish place. MSI CK S??? (argh - the label is badly damaged). It was 5% off since it was opened, but looks fine. Says it has Cherry red keys. I'll try it later today. If it fries my computer its your fault!

[Chris Gray 1]

Re: will try it...

Gahhh! The keyboard natively has a round plug with lots of pins. Comes with an adapter to USB. The pair is mangled. Dead keyboard. Sigh. Back to my old Logitech.

[Antron Argaiv]

Re: will try it...

Cable is easily replaced. See your friendly local techie.

[anthonyhegedus]

1980s keyboards

In the 1980s Home Micro scene, keyboards were, by and large, awful. From the ZX80/81 with their flat keyboard, to the spectrum's "dead flesh" and many others, the owners of those machines could only dream of a "moving key keyboard" as they were known at the time. Even those were often badly made, with keycaps often falling off. Though add-on keyboards were available, these were incredibly expensive for the time. It is rather ironic how we've gone back to flat keyboards (on phones), though the experience is far better now.

[Antony Shepherd]

Re: 1980s keyboards

The full keyboard for the Tangerine Microtan 65 system of the early 80s was a pretty nice keyboard.

[Chris Evans]

Tab key on the right please

I often have to input a lot of numbers and then use the tab key at the other end of the keyboard to the number keypad. I've yet to see a keyboard with a tab key near the number pad.

[J.G.Harston]

Re: Tab key on the right please

Doesn't the Mac map the key that would be NumLock to TAB ?

gurgle.... ah no, it's "clear".

But when spreadsheeting loads of numbers I use the number pad and Down/Right quite optimally.

[that one in the corner]

Re: Tab key on the right please

Is that keyboards not keeping up with what software uses - or software not being written to take into account what keyboard layouts actually look like?

TAB to step into next field in a dialogue (and then in a spreadsheet) - that is definitely the norm from the WIMP GUI creators' rules that is being followed today.

But was it the norm in pre-GUI programs, built with curses or similar? Right now, I can not recall, for sure, but I don't recall using TAB for anything other than "TAB completion", even away from the shell. Then again, I never used VisiCalc or Lotus 123, so: what did they use to step to the next field? Were they TAB crazy - or did they use the numeric keypad's ENTER key?[1]

[1] BTW, would remapping the numeric keypad's ENTER key to TAB help you?

[Cliffwilliams44]

Re: Tab key on the right please

In Lotus 123, Enter moved to the cell below, tab to the right, direction (cursor) keys in their respective directions.

In text-based forms, e.g. main frame green screens, IMSMR, the return key moved to the next field, the enter key on the keypad submitted the form. (or it's the opposite, it being such a long time ago)

[C R Mudgeon]

Re: Tab key on the right please

Well, Tab was something like "skip to next field" before there were computers. On a typewriter, it meant "skip to the next tab stop", and tab stops were configurable, as they are now in a word processor. For typing text, you'd set a tab stop a few spaces in for paragraph indent, and one in the middle of the line for address and signature blocks and the like; but if you had to type a table, you could set tab stops for all the columns.

Indeed, this sense of the word "tab" is short for "tabulator", i.e. "the thing to make tables with", so "skip to next column" goes back to the dawn of tab keys.

Seems to me that if curses programs or whatever weren't using Tab for that, they were the ones that weren't following the convention.

[rgjnk]

IBM M4 Keyboard

I have one of the compact M4 units which paired with the Thinkpad, all nice and black and complete with Trackpoint.

To me that's more peak IBM than the chunky older stuff. Not as heavy but a fine piece of proper hardware.

[JWLong]

KeyTronic

They made some bullet proof keyboards. All steel housings and switch stems that never broke.

Some of the OEMs that I worked for used KeyTronic boards (Honeywell, Brunswick, AMF). Brunswick charged $1000.00 core charge if you didn't send the damaged board back to the repair facility.

[molletts]

Re: KeyTronic

Yes. This.

I have a KeyTronic Classic keyboard at home which I bought in 1997 and have used pretty consistently since. Surprisingly, for a keyboard from that end of the '90s, it has an AT connector so I have a daisy-chain of adaptors doing AT->PS/2->USB. I first used one at work on my pre-uni year in industry and knew immediately that I'd discovered my keyboard nirvana and had to get one of my own. Unlike every modern keyboard I've used, the legend is still perfectly readable.

I've tried to get hold of them since but UK layout seems to be unobtainable (and I don't know whether the ones made today are the same, anyway). I have a couple of older ones which I bought for about 50p each at the fabled Forum Store at Southampton University (I used to get the train down from London to visit) but they lack the Windows keys, which are quite useful even on Linux (I always assign Right-Win to be Compose).

Some years back, looking for an acceptable modern substitute, I bought an expensive mechanical keyboard for my other PC with Cherry MX Brown switches (tactile and silent; I wanted MX Clear for the even heavier actuation force but could only find Japanese layout keyboards with those and I don't recall MX Grey being a thing at the time) and, while it was an improvement on the cheap squishy thing I'd been using, it is a pale imitation of the KeyTronic.

At work, I'm currently using a Dell KB-1421 which I found in a box of random keyboards. It's actually quite nice. It's rigid and conspicuously heavy (nowhere near as heavy as a Model M, of course), unlike the usual Dell branded plastic-o-rama fare that comes with their PCs. It has a lot of tactile feedback, good key travel and fairly high activation force. It is beginning to lose its legend, though, which causes problems when other people need to use it.

As you can tell, I'm not really a keyboard connoisseur - I just know what I like and what I don't like. I like long key travel, heavy action and tactile feedback. A steep and curved rake like my KeyTronic is good. I don't like clicky keys. I abhor chiclet keyboards (I just can't seem to type fast on them). I also dislike backlit keys - I find them distracting. As for RGB, my views on it are unrepeatable in polite company (or even on the Reg forums!)

[C R Mudgeon]

Re: KeyTronic

That might be the name I've been looking for without knowing it.

The two keyboards I remember most fondly were on some 70s-vintage Teleray and Honeywell terminals. I don't know that they used the same key switches, but they sure felt the same. I always assumed those were made by Honeywell (who, after all, did have a Microswitch Division), but maybe they were KeyTronic all along.

Something to look online for. Then I guess I'll find out if they're actually as good as I remember...

[Anonymous Coward]

The answer is

Topre

[martinusher]

IMaybe not a piano

One thing non-pianists don't realize about playing a piano is that there's a lot more to the simple action of a key press than appears at first glance. How you press the key affects the 'sound' of the note and is a big part of how a musician interprets a piece of music. There's so much going on in a typical piece that there's no time to look for the notes, the musician just has to 'know' where everything is and how its played.

Programming -- typing -- is similar but different. Its more like playing an organ in that there's no interpretation through key presses (but dissimilar in that hopefully there are no chords!). Muscle memory is still vital, though. That IBM keyboard is well thought out, its a bit overly mechanical (hence the racket when you type on it) but the placement and dip of the keys is near to perfect for rapid touch typing. That's why old school programmers use apparently obsolete editors like 'vi' -- they input code rapidly, focusing on the flow of the code rather than the actual text and they perform editing and formatting functions using key sequences rather than using a mouse (its also why they regard things like automatic indenting and coloring keywords as a bit gimmicky).

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: IMaybe not a piano

Counterproductive and evil, not gimmicky.

Also, if i sit on the backspace key, i want to end up at the beginning of the line, not the beginning of the document.

[Czrly]

Re: IMaybe not a piano

I disagree. I actually think the reason my code never fails in production is because the action of my key-strokes used to enter it into the computer is informed by my knowledge of the sensation of flinging piano-hammers off the escapement with some modicum of skill and aptitude.

At least: I'll sell that line as hard as necessary in a job interview or salary discussion with no remorse. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story! ;)

[that one in the corner]

Re: IMaybe not a piano

> but dissimilar in that hopefully there are no chords!)

CTRL-SHIFT-META-K

Ok, not a chord in that you can't (usefully) press *any* combination keys, just the specific modifier keys plus one other.

More like triggering drones than proper chords.

Although, there *are* explicitly chorded keyboards: the MicroWriter (first saw it with the BBC Micro, then on the Agenda (is the correct name?) PDA. Or the Twiddler.

Is there anyone here who mastered the Twiddler?

[molletts]

Re: IMaybe not a piano

A macro keyboard is even closer to an organ - you can make it play chords with one finger!

[Antony Shepherd]

Re: IMaybe not a piano

Your comment reminds me of the old BBC panel game TV show called "Face the Music".

This had a round where the presenter would play a piece of music on a dummy keyboard - a piano keyboard with no mechanism behind it.

Panellists would then have to try and work out what he was playing based purely on the rhythm of the clattering and the movement of his hands.

[robinsonb5]

I love my Model M but the older Model F is generally considered superior in keyfeel and sound - if not in familiarity of layout.

I have quite a collection of vintage keyboards now, and my favourites are an Apple M0116 (Salmon Alps), an Oriential Keyboard OK100 (ATW Alps Clone switches - feel great but ping like a kalimba!) and a new-old-stock keyboard with linear Space Invader switches.

[stiine]

so you say...

" This is not an opinion, it is fact."

I disagree. Anyone with fine tactile sense can type on any keyboard if the keys are in the correct locations. Even if they aren't, those of us who learned to touch-type in the dark in the past when it was still possible to have a modem generate an XOFF, or fill a standard keyboard buffer and make the keyboard beep at us, can switch from keyboard to keyboard to keyboard (say from a Smith Corona to a Compaq M100 to a Logi MX Keys S) and still type with speed and precision. If you need the clickety clack, install an app and wear headphones.

[gosand]

There are many modern options

I have a Model M (1991 model) that still works with a usb adapter. I love it, but it's just too much. I got started on mechanical typewriters and first computer was a TRS-80. For some things, modern is better!

I dove into mechanical keyboards a few years ago, and they have certainly advanced even since then. Nowadays hotswap is very common - i.e. you can pull out the switches and put new ones in. No soldering required. There are countless variations of switches, but generally fall into 3 categories : clicky, tactile, and linear. For me, tactile is perfect. With each of these, you get into specifics, like spring weight, actuation force, etc. For the boards, there are many many variations from full size (104 keys) to 40% (41 keys). Not only that but with software you can remap keys onboard or program layers and macros. If it is VIA/QMK compatible, you can use non-proprietary software to do it. Yes, you can have it do fancy lighting, I disable that first thing. Then you can get into keycaps - material, profiles, etc.

I currently am using a Zuoya GMK67, I have one at home and one I take back and forth to work. It is wired/BT/USB but I only use wired. It has a media knob for volume/mute, which I love. I have chosen MMD tactile (62g) princess switches and cherry profile PBT keycaps. It sounds great and feels great, which is the most important thing. Curious how far the rabbit hole goes on customization? theremingoat.com has reviewed thousands of different switches. Some keycap sets sell for hundreds. Some custom boards are thousands. But you can get into it for very little, and configure the perfect keyboard for you.

[Jou (Mxyzptlk)]

Left shift key

My problem is that the left shift key should require LESS force to be pushed down. Once you got beyond the 50% lifespan margin your pinky gets weaker.

So the question: Has any of you ever experiemented with hall or light sensor keyboards, where every key can be adjusten when to activate? Is there one where the left shift needs less force? 'Cause I am slowly going to the habit of use the small and right finger combined.

(It is a German keyboard I need, and the left shift key is smaller usual. A bad design decision-ISO-DIN made ~40 years ago...)

[Jou (Mxyzptlk)]

Re: Left shift key

Aw bummer...

I meant: "small and ring finger of left hand combined"...

[Jou (Mxyzptlk)]

Re: Left shift key

Oh OH!

CHERRY MX BLOSSOM requires only 35 cN, instead of the 45 cN of MX RED (all other are even higher...)..

[Gene Cash]

I had a Model M, but it finally died

I type rather hard, and all the switches started failing.

I currently have a keyboard with Cherry MX Green and it's survived my angry flailing without losing keycaps like the Model M did. We'll see if it lasts 25 years like the Model M did.

[Philo T Farnsworth]

Out of control

I admit I'm a corner case (among other types of cases) but the "standard" placement of the Caps Lock and Control keys have long mystified me.

Unless you're ranting on some random social media site in the middle of the night when you should be sound asleep, the Caps Lock key seems to me to be one of the more useless keys on the keyboard and I don't understand why it's on the "home row."

Many moons ago, Sun Microsystems made the Type 6 and Type 7 keyboards (and probably others) with the Control key on the home row, nestled nicely next to the A key. This is especially useful if one is an emacs user but even if one is not, it still seems to me to be a better key placement than the usual setup.

About 10 or 15 years ago, when I realized that the Type 7 was going the way of the dodo, I bought a half dozen of the things.

And don't get me started on the comparative advantages of the Sun "Crossbow" three button mouse as opposed to those annoying "scroll wheel" monstrosities. . .

Oh, no, nurse, I'm fine, really I am. I'll put the keyboard away. Time for my thorazine, you say? Yes, I'll come along with the nice orderly. . . (THUD. . . CRASH)

[that one in the corner]

Re: Out of control

Why it is on the home row is totally a throwback to the oldest manual typewriters: it was really a lot easier to engage CAPS LOCK if you were going to type more than one upper case letter in a row! Well, I certainly thought so (copytyping some stage play pages for a friend at Uni, with the character names and stage directions in caps... Oh what a relief to get back to the machine room and the Hazeltines).

Nowadays, a totally pointless key - except on a tablet or phone, where even the shift key is a locking key (it just unlocks after one letter).

As mentioned recently, if you are unfortunate enough to have CAPS LOCK on the home row, remap it to CTRL for a better way of life. You can then remap the strangely low LHS CTRL to something else - or just leave it as another CTRL for easy access to copy/paste when you aren't so much typing proper words but are just mousing and moving things around.

[CA_Diver]

Re: Out of control

Came here to say this. Early keyboards had a Control key nicely placed, off to the left. I've had to find keyboard remap options over the years to support touch typing. Fun to watch a colleague touch typing with CAPS Lock remapped.

From Das Keyboard 6 Professional.

[Phil O'Sophical]

Re: Out of control

Sun produced 2 variants of the Type 5/6/7 keyboards:

US: CapsLock to the left of "A", Ctrl bottom row left, then Meta, Alt and Spacebar

US_Unix: Ctrl to the left of "A", CapsLock bottom row left, then Alt, Meta and Spacebar.

There were also differences in the placement of Esc, ~/~, backspace, Compose and others.

I also bought several, years ago, but since I prefer (or was used to) the US_Unix and my wife preferred the other, I have a collection of both types.

[C R Mudgeon]

Re: Out of control

Not sure, but I suspect that CTRL moved to the spacebar row when they decided to add one on the right. The latter was a good idea, but unfortunately it necessitated the former, which wasn't.

Left-CTRL evicted caps-lock, which then had to go somewhere, and the place it had been on typewriters, beside the "A" key, was now vacant, so...

[evancg]

Lmao I love this website. I should've quit reddit and switched to reading these earlier. You are my people.

[Boris the Cockroach]

I'll have to

disagree here with all the comments about 'the best keyboard'

Memotech MTX had the best keyboard by a country mile.... the IBM comes in 2nd place nicely, but the MTX was proper clicky clanky keys mounted to a 1mm thick aluminium plate which itself was bolted to the computer's aluminium case. I just wish someone had the guts and bravery to make a PC compatable version, would sure beat typing into a cheap logitech keyboard that feels like you're pressing into 2 day old roadkill.

[vulture65537]

Cooper Pair

> Model M is the Steinway, the Stradivarius of the qwerty world

Tommy Cooper found in his attack a Stradivarius and a Rembrandt.

Unfortunately Stradivari couldn't paint and Rembrandt made terrible violins.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Cooper Pair

> Stradivari couldn't paint

What, none of them? Not even one at a time?

[Joe Gurman]

Aside….

….from the terminally loud clackety-clacking of mechanical keyboards, which I loathe, I’ve never found one that was comfortable to use — and I’ve used a lot of different keyboards sine i first sat down at an IBM 026 keypunch c. 58 years ago. For now, I’m sticking with my Magic Keyboard with Touch ID and Numeric Keypad from the Fruit Company El Reg loves to hate. Your (and Mr. Torvalds’s) mileage will almost certainly differ.

[C R Mudgeon]

Re: Aside….

I never used an IBM 026, but I started my computing days on IBM 029s. The things permanently damaged my touch-typing, by teaching me a bad habit I've been unable to break in 50+ years.

The thing is, they effectively only had one shift key, on the left. (There was a right-shift key, but it was for shifting down, not up.) All these years after I last used one of those cantankerous beasts, I still have a strong tendency to use left-shift exclusively. Yeah, my hand gets pretty contorted when I do that. Like when I typed "IBM" above, I automatically typed all three letters with left-shift. This last time, I made a point of doing it the proper way I was taught in typing class back in the day. Talk about cumbersome -- left-shift-I, right-shift-B, left-shift-M. I presume that if I'd never used an 029, that key sequence would have been second nature.

[Grogan]

I was in a very similar boat. I thought to get with modern times and bought a Logitech cordless keyboard and mouse set. The keyboard was killing me, I was backspacing more typos than typing words and it was causing me problems with my hands.

I went back to my old keyboard on a PS/2 to USB converter dongle despite the occasional latency or glitch, like keypresses not registering with lights blinking instead (it's rare enough that it gaslights me into thinking I mis-pressed or fumbled)

That IBM keyboard shown is exactly the keyboard I have, one of the first PS/2 keyboards from 1986. Pry it from my stiff, dead fingers now that the strain caused by that stupid Logitech keyboard has healed up.

[DrewPH]

Fact?

"While there are many fine modern options, the finest keyboard in the world, ever, is the IBM Model M. This is not an opinion, it is fact."

And that, my friends, is an opinion!

[Combat Epistomologist]

Re: Fact?

It is indeed merely an opinion. I, for one, detest the Model M. That TWINGTWINGTWINGTWINGTWINGTWING gives me headaches. The cursed thing should carry an OSHA warning.

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a 25 year old Model M made in Scotland. Was using it until very recently. The left shift key is getting slightly sticky. Probably an easy fix, but since it is a UK keymap & I have relocated to Australia where the US keymap is used and it only has a PS2 connector I have reluctantly put it away for now.

Currently using a HP keyboard, which leaves a lot to be desired. Looked into getting a Unicomp Model M, but cannot find an Australian distributor and one off shipping costs more than the keyboard.

[FuzzyTheBear]

bit of sillyness....

how about using a variable magnetic field that acts like a brake when we push the button in ? the faster we type , the more it braakes and increases resistance. I told you it's a silly idea ..

[Phil O'Sophical]

Re: bit of sillyness....

Just use a silly putty damper.

[Ryan D]

Ttttttt?

Testimonial to trashy typing testified to type? Times ten?

[streaky]

Don't get me started..

I could go on for days about the disaster of the modern keyboard design. I won't, but, I'll pose some questions:

Why does tenkeyless even exist? Why does 75% keyboards? You're not a pro gamer who needs to get a keyboard into your flight bag, what are you doing?

How come we can't make a decent wireless keyboard at a reasonable price in 2025? We've been doing it with mice for years and the latency, bandwidth and battery implications are significantly worse for mice.

Why must you put keys so close to the edge of the keyboard that I can't use it on my lap, leaning back in my chair (which is best for my back)? At least the bottom edge anyway.

Do we really even need macro keys? Do gamers really even use them? And if they do, do they really need to be on the left side of the keyboard? Didn't we use to put them at the top?

RGB is nice (at least proper RGB through the keys so it lights up the letters, anyway) - but do we _really_ individually referenceable backlights? (to be fair this is weak because once you have backlights you're 98% there)

Why is it still not possible, no matter how much you spend, to have keys that don't wear smooth after less than six months - and why don't you sell caps at a reasonable price for when they inevitably do?

We're paying a lot of money for, it seems to me, _bad_ keyboards.

I literally last week binned an expensive Razer keyboard that had a failed space bar, and resoldering a new switch in didn't help it. I bought a Cynosa Lite to replace it in a hurry because it's cheap and actually fulfils a lot of my criteria. I wish I could get it with proper switches, but it's honestly the best keyboard I've had in years despite being one of the cheapest, nastiest keyboards I've ever owned. This shouldn't be a thing. I should be able to buy something like it with decent switches for, IDK, 80 quid, maybe a wireless option that works well for 100 or so? (yes, I know about the Ornata V3 - but low profile keys are the worst, it does prove we can almost do it and there's not really a good excuse though).

[Dan 55]

Re: Don't get me started..

Why does tenkeyless even exist? Why does 75% keyboards?

So the money can be saved on switches and keys and put into LED backlights.

[the spectacularly refined chap]

Re: Don't get me started..

Why does tenkeyless even exist? Why does 75% keyboards? You're not a pro gamer who needs to get a keyboard into your flight bag, what are you doing?

Because a full size keyboard is too long to fit in a 19" rack drawer.

[streaky]

Re: Don't get me started..

I grant you there are some valid excuses - but they shouldn't be taking up the percentage of the keyboard model space that they do..

[SleepGuy]

Re: Don't get me started..

For me, after over 40 years on keyboards, the Keychron K10 QMK is the Holy Grail. Mechanical, wireless or wired operation, backlit, fully configurable keymap, and quality (replaceable) keycaps.

[imanidiot]

Re: Don't get me started..

>>I could go on for days about the disaster of the modern keyboard design. I won't, but, I'll pose some questions:

>>Why does tenkeyless even exist? Why does 75% keyboards? You're not a pro gamer who needs to get a keybo>>ard into your flight bag, what are you doing?

Because a lot of people don't ever use the numpad keys and they like the ergonomics of having the mouse closer to the keyboard? Or simply having the added "mouse space"? 75% keyboards are just an iteration on that philosophy. If all you ever do is type lots and lots of letters and rarely numbers, plus switching from two hands on keyboard to one hand on mouse, a more compact keyboard can be more comfortable. Just because it doesn't work for your use case doesn't mean it doesn't for others. The fact there's so many on the market should point out there's plenty of demand for them

>> How come we can't make a decent wireless keyboard at a reasonable price in 2025? We've been doing it with mice for years and the latency, bandwidth and battery implications are significantly worse for mice.

Because by and large, nobody has actually tried and there's not that much demand for them. And whereas with a mouse where a slight latency is not that big a deal because we have the bio-wetware interface of a meaty arm performing motions in the brain to pointer loop and a slight delay isn't all that noticeable to most people (bar pro gamers who still favour wired for that reason) for typing somehow this delay is a lot more noticeable and stacks up. You're not making 4+ mouse movements a second, yet fast typists can reach that sort of speed at full chat and even mild delays in sending keystrokes start to add up. Have an experienced typist at full chat blind typing from a document and they could type at a speed that would end up making blocks of text appear from the buffer for several seconds after they stop typing a paragraph. I think wireless keyboards are stuck in the "well they were shit 10 years ago when I tried them so I'm not going to buy them" and "nobody is buying wireless keyboards so we're not going to invest in making a better one" hole right now.

>>Why must you put keys so close to the edge of the keyboard that I can't use it on my lap, leaning back in my chair (which is best for my back)? At least the bottom edge anyway.

Because very very very few people use a keyboard on their laps? And when you're using keyboard on a desk, a long "skirt" at the bottom edge can be a annoying. Many higher end keyboards come with a detachable wrist support for the bottom edge. Not really useful on your lap since they're usually hinged/floppy and meant to be used on a desktop though. If your back is getting hurt from sitting upright I think your problem is bad posture or bad core strength.

>>Do we really even need macro keys? Do gamers really even use them? And if they do, do they really need to be on the left side of the keyboard? Didn't we use to put them at the top?

How many keyboards have macro keys on the left side? Really not that many. If gamers didn't want or use them, there wouldn't be any keyboards with them on. Yes sometimes they went at the top, sometimes they still are. Shop around and find one to your liking.

>>RGB is nice (at least proper RGB through the keys so it lights up the letters, anyway) - but do we _really_ individually referenceable backlights? (to be fair this is weak because once you have backlights you're 98% there)

No we don't. Some people will buy it anyway or want it anyway. Hence it's sold. My last keyboard purchase was addressable RGB backlight because it was cheaper than the solid red monocolor backlight version. Since RGB is where the market lies, apparently that's not the cheaper option through the benefits of mass manufacture.

>>Why is it still not possible, no matter how much you spend, to have keys that don't wear smooth after less than six months - and why don't you sell caps at a reasonable price for when they inevitably do?

If your keys are wearing down that fast you've probably just got some very corrosive sweat. Nothing is going to stand up to that. If you just mean the print wearing off, look for "double shot" keycaps, though anything with RGB light up keys is likely to already be double shot. As for loose keycaps, there's plenty available, "reasonable price" is entirely subjective

>>We're paying a lot of money for, it seems to me, _bad_ keyboards.

I don't share your experience.

>>I literally last week binned an expensive Razer keyboard that had a failed space bar, and resoldering a new switch in didn't help it. I bought a Cynosa Lite to replace it in a hurry because it's cheap and

>>actually fulfils a lot of my criteria. I wish I could get it with proper switches, but it's honestly the best keyboard I've had in years despite being one of the cheapest, nastiest keyboards I've ever owned.

>>This shouldn't be a thing. I should be able to buy something like it with decent switches for, IDK, 80 quid, maybe a wireless option that works well for 100 or so? (yes, I know about the Ornata V3 - but

>>low profile keys are the worst, it does prove we can almost do it and there's not really a good excuse though).

Razer... yeah there's your problem. One of those where the brand is dictating a price backed only by marketing guff, rarely by product quality.

[GNU Enjoyer]

No, Linus is not a hero

>the global hero most of the world doesn't even know exists.

Much of the world does know he exists, as they've heard of "Linux" (Linus with the s swapped out with x - a massive cult of personality and a buzzword too).

If Linus hadn't decided to author a quick and dirty but technically functional kernel, GNU would have allocated more development time to Hurd, or determined that a monolithic kernel was more suitable and found a suitable one and got it freed.

Alas, most of the world haven't heard of the real heroes - Richard Stallman and those behind the GNU OS (which he doesn't ask people to call "Stallmanx", just GNU and to also give credit to Linux when relevant).

>he was still using his Apple M2 laptop

It's not his - it's Apple, as it's handcuffed by digital signatures that only Apple has the privatekeys of and how wear components like the SSD is soldered down and is not reasonably replaceable.

Something is only yours if you have control over it and another party cannot decide when it'll stop working.

[Cliffwilliams44]

As close to the real thing as you can get!

The Unicomp New Model-M! I am typing on one right now! These are not as loud (still not quiet) as the original M they have the same feel.

https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/NEW_M

While I no longer work around other co-workers, but I've used these for over 15 years and I can say, I could care less for their complaining!

[Caspian Prince]

Having grown up with the Vic20/C64 keyboard...

... I need something I can literally batter with a hammer and won't break to suit my typing style, which could charitably be described as "irritatingly loud" by my colleagues.

Ducky keyboards ftw by the way.

[osxtra]

Clickety-Clack

'k, a couple of things with that article, but to be up-front about it, I may come across as biased, having typed in the Dvorak layout for over 35 years.

So long as Qwerty (sic) "works well once learned", sure. Shovels work well, too. But a backhoe is a helluva lot less stress on your body.

Yes, Mr. Sholes invented the typewriter, and in 1878 his contraption would jam if you tried to go faster than three or four words a minute.

So he munged his layout, and thus "qwerty" was born.

The ubiquitous "they" say the average typist fingers move around sixteen miles a day. With dvorak, it's one.

Percentage of words one can type on the home row with Querty? 32. Dvorak? 70.

Never took typing in school, so after a stint in the military as a mainframe operator, just another hunt'n'pecker, knowing I was going to be in the 'puter field the rest of my life and also wanting my hands to be able to still play guitar for many decades, I lit upon that alternate layout.

Haven't looked back.

So far as that M model, never used it, but still have my Northgate OmniKey Ultra (a fair mechanical with dip switches for adjusting the layout, and an optional set of caps could get to match for letters that changed row), and the DAS Keyboard from around 25 years ago, a big klunky black thing with no stencils on the keys.

(I did once visit a friend with a Selectric II and wanted to type something one day. Having gone straight from longhand to the cursor, it took nearly two pages to remember to press <RETURN> after every line. And that stupid ding as you got close to the end. Annoying! Give me word-wrap any old day.)

I had always preferred mechanicals, but after getting an MBP in '09 got the fingers to adjust and really don't mind. It took longer to train the thumb to do command instead of control than to get used to the feel.

These days it's a hand-built OpenCore desktop running Sonoma, and a Matias backlit USB model, closest I could come to the feel of the Fruity laptop.

On a different note, no, I'll bet somewhere in the world there is at least one person with a home alter and gilded icons. And a manifesto lovingly crafted in assembler. ;)

[kaseki]

UNICOMP Model M provides a further benefit; one can get revisionist key caps, such as "tux" caps to replace the "windows flag" image menu key caps. And the key labels are molded in, so wear rate is reduced.

[goblinski]

I'll go full grunt here and submit that any keyboard sold today for the equivalent of what the IBM model M keyboard was sold for in 1985 ($100-120 then, which is ballpark $350 nowadays) can be specced to be at least as good. Not to mention that Unicomp's New Model M is south of $200 new.

What is regrettable is that this goodness is not the universal standard, it is true. But it's still there for whoever needs it.

[NickHolland]

"Finest keyboard ...ever"

"the finest keyboard in the world, ever, is the IBM Model M."

well...no. "ever" is a very long time, even in IT.

Let's ignore that people vary, and people can legitimately love/hate different things. There were a lot of options out there before the PC and some were just plain better.

Let's not forget, when IBM came out with the PC, the keyboard was laughed at by many, loved by some. I recall one review (Byte Magazine?) which summed it up as, "how could the company that produced the IBM Selectric Typewriter produce ... THIS?"'. In addition to the weird feel, the weird key placements were just out of line.

The later 101key Model M fixed the placements (for the most part. CTRL moved stupidly). So now it was just the feel. Love it or hate it.

When the IBM clicky keyboards came out, I hated them.

Now, I think a Model M (or a clone -- Unicomp) it is the best I can find. Not so much (I believe) because I've changed my mind...it's just that better computer keyboards went away. There was a lot of good stuff in the Pre-PC world (and a lot of trash, too -- admittedly).

My favorite I've owned: Zenith Z100/Heathkit H100 (a PC class but not PC compatible computer). I used to have people come to my dorm room and say, "I have heard you have a computer with an amazing keyboard, can I try it?"...and I don't recall anyone walking away saying, "eh", except for the rabid IBM lovers (the ones that didn't even want to talk about compatibles -- 4.77MHz 8088 and 6MHz 80286 are enough for ANYONE! After that -- get an IBM Mainframe!). I've used an IBM 3279 terminal which also had a stunning keyboard, though I wasn't using it for "PC" style applications, were I could just type fast, hard and long -- so I'm not sure if my admiration would hold up. And yes, the purely mechanical IBM Selectric golfball typewriters had stunning keyboards. No switches, just rods and levers causing things to happen, and giving the user an amazing experience (except...that backspace key doesn't "work" like I need it to).

Before I ran out of supply, my favorite PC keyboard was the Zenith ZKB-2. Now, if I can avoid a PS2-USB converter, a real Model M is my favorite (I have a lifetime supply). Unicomp is good -- very good -- but feels a bit like a worn Model M. Really good, but not quite 100%. And I wish they'd improve the features, not just clone 40 year old keyboards (i.e., their trackball and button mouse keyboards are fatally crippled by lack of the seemingly required modern wheel and third button functions. Some programmability/macro functions would be nice, too). PS/2-USB converters have been hit-and-miss for me. Some work well, some are laggy. I'd gripe about breaking a Unicomp by spilling some water in it, but I managed to do the exact same thing with a real Model M a few weeks later (40+ years in the business, and the two keyboards I destroyed were just weeks apart!!), so I guess that's authentic.

One GREAT thing about the migration to commodity PC hardware: you can get a keyboard that works for you and put it on your computer that works for you with the monitor that works for you. One sad thing is people cheap out on the very things they interact with the most (monitor/mouse/keyboard), and go for fancy and expensive stuff in the computer's box they don't actually use 80% of. Go buy a good keyboard. $150USD is nothing for something that will make your life better and improve the experience. My only gripe is there few places you can walk in and try out the high end keyboards before purchasing (I'd like to try the Model F clones...but I'm not quite ready to drop $400 for an experiment. If it is good, I'm fine with the price).

[vmy2197]

Re: "Finest keyboard ...ever"

Well, there aren't too many 3270 terminal keyboards in use attached to PCs out there so, as you say, "ever" is a long time.

[the spectacularly refined chap]

They're all flat...

What happened to properly raked keyboards? I.e. where the actual bases of the key switches are tiered and angled to present each key at the correct height and orientation instead of different styles of keycap for each row.

I get that they're easier to make by building up from a flat circuit board but it means the direction of operation of each row remains the same when the angle they are hit at varies.

[Red Or Zed]

Who wants a backlit keyboard?

Pure vanity, there is no possible advantage. If you're looking at the keyboard while typing, you're doing computers wrong.

[goblinski]

The purest form of vanity is to disparage what other people need because you don't need it.

[boatsman]

almost a short story.

well done, its almost literature

on the M :

hundreds of hours on this thing.

yes. its accurate. you know when you mistyped, didnt hit it hard enough etcetera.

its near impossible to make a typo without subconsiously knowing that you did.

but the noise.

awful.

jaguar v8

the actual reason why I had to ditch it. family kept awake or woken up by the rattling, when I had a emergency call @midnight or far later...

great machine, though.

[Apocalypso - a cheery end to the world]

The DEC VT220 has this one great feature missing from all other keyboards...

(Sorry, couldn't resist the post title!)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VT220#/media/File:DEC_VT220_terminal.jpg

The DEC VT220 had one really useful feature which was that you could balance it vertically on the rear edge. This was very handy if you needed to quickly clear a bit of desk space to open a manual or examine a listing.

[vmy2197]

Re: The DEC VT220 has this one great feature missing from all other keyboards...

Not only that but the DEC LA series of DECwriter terminals also created a paper log of your entire session. Can the IBM keyboard do that? I don't think so.

[FelixReg]

IBM AT board was the best

The IBM AT board (built in the '80s between the original PC board and the Model M) had the best keys if you don't mind noise. Some things against it, though:

1) Only 10 function keys (no F11 and F12). If you use software (like debuggers) that use those keys, you want those keys.

2) Function keys to the left rather than on the top, top row. 50% of the time, left-side F keys are better than top-top. 50% of the time it's the other way. Sigh. Why not both?

3) It took too much juice for USB to power. A decade ago, I tossed my last two AT boards because of this. Mistake. Could have simply replaced the electronics with a modern MCU.

The AT board was not curved like the M. The AT board's keys felt like they had a longer throw than the M. I preferred both.

The AT board had a real Enter key, big and L shaped.

The AT board was a man's keyboard. Lay it carefully on a modern laptop and savor the sound of crackling, crushed plastic as your laptop becomes ultra, ultra thin. The AT board was heavy. But when you hit a key, by God, that key was hit!

Price. Ah, the days of old Boeing Surplus in the '90s. $1 for keyboards. Lots of Model M's and NMB (buckling spring?) boards. That latter, built in '91, has been my main board for the last 20 or 30 years.

[Alan Brown]

Origin of qwerty

It's not (as legend suggests) intended to slow typists down

Instead it's designed to allow typists to go as fast as possible WITHOUT tangling hammers on a mechanical typewriter

That's why designers kept coming back to it. It's one of the best layouts for two handed typists, even if they're hunt'n'peck operators or using only 3-4 fingers overall

You can argue until you're blue in the face about better layouts for electronic keyboards but we're only 20-30 years into those being ubiquitous vs a century of prior art on the mechanical ones. Older typists are used to the layout and until we get dynamically reconfigurable keycaps, it's a faff to change layouts/keyboards for different people (I get that you can do so electronically, I mean what's displayed on the caps. This might be one of those killer apps for e-paper displays)

[revdjenk]

Special M's ?

In the late 80's, I found two Model M keyboards in a Goodwill in San Rafael CA. Both had silver labels attached to the bottom, with "Industrial Light and Magic" imprinted on them. I wish I had kept them, but after 9 moves (one out of the US) it was hard to justify moving them, especially after switching to laptops.

[Bluto Nash]

The Model M

When asked about it - I describe in two ways:

1 - It's the keyboard for those that type for a living

2 - It's sturdy enough to beat the life out of someone, then turn around and write their obituary on it.

I have one at home, one I brought to use at work, and two spares, so I'm set for a lifetime. My kids each want one when I'm gone, since they have early recollections of hearing "that noise when dad was working."

[John Doe 6]

I also use Model M - has done it for 30 years and it is the same Model M.

The click-feature hated by some is there because it is needed by real "touch typists", they need feedback of a key being pressed so they don't need to look up from the paper.

There is a reason for everything on a Model M, it's not just for the noize. The weight is also on purpose - a keyboard SHOULD not move easily.

Btw. a "Touch Typist" is someone who type a lot and move data from one piece of paper to another or to a computer, they keep their eyes on the paper they are typing from - thus needing audible feedback from the keyboard.

[imanidiot]

The audible feedback is one thing, the tactile feedback is equally important. But it's also just a lot of "whatever you're used to".

Before computers where a thing, there was also hot debates on what typewriter had the better keyboard and tactility. Even if to someone used to a computer they ALL feel like having to beat on a piano with a hammer. Having learned typing on a beat-up old typewriter myself in my youth and now fixing up some as an adult, there is indeed a lot of difference in feel between models, though it's very different from typing on a computer. A Remington-Rand Model N feels nothing like a Triump Tippa. I don't know exactly how typists achieved hundreds of words a minute on the old (for example) Remington typewriters but I know for a fact they did. Having typed on the old-skool OG IBM Selectrix once, I can see how some who were used to typing on that would lament a changeover to even a Model M keyboard on a computer. If you were used to the slightly heavy handed travel required on a true old-school mechanical typewriter, switching to a Selectrix must have felt like going from a VW Golf (the normal one, not even the GTI) to a Ferrari. Going to a model M in terms of feedback is then a switch back to a Golf GTI. Sure it's faster but it's not in the same league.

[aj69]

Buckling Spring

The secret is the buckling spring.

This -> https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/NEW_M

[vmy2197]

Want a black tactile keyboard?

WYSE made an IBM clone in black. The one I have is a model KU-8933, USB connector, full keyboard with the number pad on the right.

[vmy2197]

Supposedly the sound of the clacking on the IBM tactile keyboards can be used as a keylogger. Search on "acoustic hacking".

Here's an example video (not mine.)

https://youtu.be/mEC6PM97IRI?si=HWGo-fzmpZdDogah

[edwaleni]

Model M is still made and for sale.......

You can still buy the original Model M.

They are made by Unicomp at the original IBM/Lexmark factory in Lexington Kentucky.

pckeyboard.com

[uccsoundman]

Maybe a clicky adapter?

I'm not actually smart enough to do this, but I've often thought about a flat keyboard stand with an USB interface that could see keystroke events. Plug the keyboard into the interface, and the interface continues to the computer. When it sees a keystroke, it actuates a heavy relay or some other electro-mechanical actuators. Set the keyboard on this stand and your fingers will get the tactile feedback. Admittedly if you are using a very mushy keyboard, it wouldn't be the same. It would also tend to be noisy because it would resonate on the desk.

[Henry Wertz 1]

Thank goodness for gamers!

Thank goodness for gamers!

I'm also a Model M user myself. One from 1988, one from 1991, I have one with the mouse on it (like the nub they use on Thinkpads). About 20 years ago you could NOT find a good keyboard. A generic Dell was as good as it got. Vendors decided peopole were switching to tablets, therefore they didn't need to design or build more than a cheap but functional keyboard. I collected several Model Ms partially because I figured I'd want a lifetime supply.

Gamers said 'hell na', and companies saw the demand from gamers for high quality keyboards. So now you can get a choice of keyswitches and get a quite nice keyboard for like $80. Thank you gamers!

[Jou (Mxyzptlk)]

Re: Thank goodness for gamers!

Yeah, but try to get a good one without RGB crap...

[pjcamp]

Unicomp still makes buckling spring keyboards. They're just like IBM's (except better colors) because they licensed the technology from IBM. You can't backlight them because the spring is in the way. There's nowhere to put the light. That's what made me give mine up.

[0laf]

Is there a right answer

It's been many many years since I've used an old school clacky keyboard but as I recall they were a bit too clacky for me.

I'm going througn a phase of trying and discarding keyboards at the moment.

Your cheap MS standard - actually quite like them tbh

An expensive Steel series with adjustable key pressures and all the wizzy lighting you could want - Good but couldn;t be arsed faffing with the chaing pressures and it would occasionally glitch and switch presure itself so you'd suddenly find the F key wasn't working unless you thumped it and resetting required unplugging, firing up a personal machine with the software and updating the keyboard again. Happened often enough to be a PITA and I'm no serious gamer so all the programmable things were wasted on me.

Got an old Mac mini keyboard for a tenner to try, quite good for a little one (AA batteries so has longer life than the new ones), but US layout which I can cope with although again PITA.

Currently using a Keychron K4 with 60% layout, smaller wireless and retains the numpad. Still getting used to the layout size but very much like the feel of the keyboard and the build quality is excellent with the alu chassis. Wrist rest is continually out of stock though.

Anything has to be better than those fecking chiclet keyboards that were everywhere for a while