The 'End of 10' is nigh, but don't bury your PC just yet The "End of 10" website is a cooperative effort to let people know that they have other options besides buying a new computer. The campaign is a noble attempt to raise public awareness. It carries a simple, clear message in large, friendly letters: when Windows 10 reaches the end of its life in five months' time, you don't …
One thing I found when looking at getting wine running.. where do you get it from ? app managers have so many variations and which is the one to choose ?
Reading various sites and you are told to download this, edit that, do something else. All great if you are prepared for it or techy minded, but a lot of Windows users just want a siimple download this exe, run and install and forget . That really needs sorting in my view
or in many cases, just forget post install and call on their friendly IT person when it has died and said friendly IT person realises no updates for 12 months+. When they try to update it takes hours and are asked "why so long ?" Finally, when sorted, you explain how to do regular updates (just windows - nothing else), and you still get into this loop
I would highly recommend using Bottles https://usebottles.com/ I've found it to be much easier to get working than Lutris with its random user-submitted scripts that fail half the time. The UI is a bit quirky in places but other than that it's great.
Whatever distro you're using, just install Wine with the default one. It'll be fine. In fact, the more you stick to just using whatever GUI has been provided to you the happier you'll be. The Windows way of downloading a random executable from somewhere you found by Googling is a terrifyingly bad approach and while I understand people are used to it, it is neither actually simpler at the time (simply more familiar) nor is it simpler in the long run—it is much, much nicer to have your updates all in the same place and fairly guaranteed not to be malware.
Yep - bought one of those cheap Chinese N100s that come with Win11 Pro for about the price of a Win11 licence ;-)
Put Debian KDE on it (reverted from Kubuntu when it went snap). But nostalgia reigns. Forked out £12 for a second SSD. Now when I have a bad day with Linux I can switch boot and have an even worse day with Win11.
Perversly this makes me feel better.
They're going to have to work on this page bit. It says:
"1. Download a new OS: Download the operating system you want to install. Search for Linux distributions for beginners to get some suggestions."
As much as they want to remain impartial, if they don't give an easy to understand description and a link for a handful of distros at most then this is not going to convert the masses.
Agreed: they need to pick a few (meaning less than 6) of the most popular distros and have (or link to) simple and complete installation instructions.
Even this will be confusing for many ... "why do I need to chose, is Linux not just Linux ?"
The be fair: they are trying to get punters to get someone to do it for them and THEN spend ten minutes showing how to do common tasks - a really good idea.
they need to pick a few (meaning less than 6) of the most popular distros
No, they need to pick ONE. They can give links to some others at the bottom for people who want to get more in depth but people who don't know anything about Linux have no idea how to choose between Fedora, Mint, Ubuntu and so forth. The people running the website should pick the one they think offers the simplest process from end to end - from initial download and trying it out, to an install that's as fully automated as possible (including shrinking your Windows partition to make room if you want to keep it around) with the fewest questions, to a GUI that would be an easy adjustment for someone coming from Windows 10.
If I was a computer neophyte who used Windows for years because that's what I got used to school/work and had never entertained the idea of running something else, if I was presented with a menu of options with advantages/disadvantages for various versions of Linux I'd close that window and just figure it is easier to stick with Windows even without security fixes. I would want the fewest decisions/options possible. If it was possible for someone to make a "click here to download Linux, install it onto your hard drive alongside Windows, then your PC will restart and you'll be given a choice of which to start then and each time you boot from then on" that would be what I'd want to see. The closer you can come to that the better.
I've been using linux since Sarge 3.1, jumped a few distro's then stayed on ubuntu until Gnome classic popped of then jumped to xubuntu.
Once I was confident with linux and all things terminal I then made a VM running Arch, Installed that a few times to get the hang of that then lived in there for a few months to get the quirks out the way and then finally moved over to full on install.
Never looked back and have finally settled in hyprland on Arch with xfce as a fallback if wayland gets all weird
my hostname is arch-btw
live the meme :)
That was NOT a fallacy, In 2015 to install Arch you was in terminal like it or not.
Whether this is or not for the "user" in 2025 is mute, distros are not a democracy. They are what they are and you pick what YOU want. If you want a simple to install distro then go find one.
It no longer maters what you were using back in the day, I began on a zx81 and I know for a dead cert that experience was not for the people of the 80s either!
"I've been using linux since Sarge 3.1, jumped a few distro's then stayed on ubuntu until Gnome classic popped of then jumped to xubuntu.
Once I was confident with linux and all things terminal I then made a VM running Arch, Installed that a few times to get the hang of that then lived in there for a few months to get the quirks out the way and then finally moved over to full on install.
Never looked back and have finally settled in hyprland on Arch with xfce as a fallback if wayland gets all weird"
Isn't this the basic problem? Present that comment to a average user and they'd look at you blankly. Present a USB install of win 11, stick it in the hole and go (give or take signing your life away) and away you go. Choice and variation across what seems to be "Linux" causes basic confusion.
There just needs to be a core install system that is extremely similar across all distros with no big user decisions or distros to decide on - just "Linux".
Everything "tweaky" should be built out from that core *if you want it but it is not necessary*. At the moment, user decisions that impact the basic system happen far too early and are far too confusing for general use.
Windows is currently a turtle, laying on it's back and desperately waggling it's legs in the air, but user confusion is not allowing Linux to take advantage of that situation. Indeed the desperate desire for difference may result in the Linux community directing users to turn over the turtle ...
"Isn't this the basic problem? Present that comment to a average user and they'd look at you blankly. Present a USB install of win 11, stick it in the hole and go (give or take signing your life away) and away you go. Choice and variation across what seems to be "Linux" causes basic confusion.
There just needs to be a core install system that is extremely similar across all distros with no big user decisions or distros to decide on - just "Linux".
Everything "tweaky" should be built out from that core *if you want it but it is not necessary*. At the moment, user decisions that impact the basic system happen far too early and are far too confusing for general use.
Windows is currently a turtle, laying on it's back and desperately waggling it's legs in the air, but user confusion is not allowing Linux to take advantage of that situation. Indeed the desperate desire for difference may result in the Linux community directing users to turn over the turtle ..."
Linux/BSD currently is still not "For the People" in their raw forms. Many don't even know what a filesystem is let alone what one to use.
"Users" get good access to it on specific platforms:
PlayStation(BSD)/Steamdeck(Arch) = Gaming
Android = Phones/TVs
WebOS = TVs
WindRiver = Desktop Phones, Routers
SwitchOS(Debian) = Network Switches
PanelOS(Ubuntu) = FastFood ordering boards and menus
That's where it currently ends because if you want easy to install then you need to go find it because distros are not democratic and are made by a group that want a collectively agreed end regardless of "The general public"
Windows is Windows and Linux is Linux, Compare all you like but realise Macs don't need an installer because the OS is there, same with phones, TVs Game consoles etc.
You might want a Windows install experience but you're not gonna get it, it will be different because this is Linux not Windows.
The sheer volume of choice Linux offers means it will always be fragmented and this will ultimately add complexity to the installation method used which also means it will be very different to installing Windows, People need to understand and accept this.
Lol, feel your pain. I am currently on Fedora 42, but around 34-35, they pissed me off. Broke my sound, so I had to poke Pulse Audio every time I wanted to use headphones. So I went to Ubuntu. Then Ubuntu pissed me off (broke my Nvidia driver and stuck me with the crappy Intel chip), so I went to Mint. Then Mint pissed me off (annoying UI updates), so I went back to Fedora. That's both the nice and awful thing about Linux. You at least get choices. Windows 11 just feels like a bad port of a phone operating system, but my clients need proprietary Windows applications. So I just have to suck it up.
https://PuppyLinux.org or https://PuppyLinux.com had a single .exe file, LICK.exe, to install puppylnux to your Windows PC using the existing NTFS filesystem partition type 007 on the hard drive.
https://puppylinux-or-pcbsd.blogspot.com/search?q=lick
Thursday, November 7, 2019
MS Windows Users, Test drive PuppyLinux with just a few clicks
https://puppylinux-or-pcbsd.blogspot.com/2019/11/ms-windows-users-consider-lick.html
I hope this helps others to use a small complete Linux on their present Windows 10 or Windows 7 computer. Booting in frugal mode from a USB flash drive puppylinux image is also good method to use. Fred Finster
They also start off by saying:
"We recommend getting in-person support for the best experience. However, if you feel you're technically versed enough to do it yourself, here's a general guide"
So if you qualify as "NOT technically versed enough" then JUST STOP RIGHT THERE.
Quick workaround: Find a knowledgeable teenager and as k for help...
Yes in my experience in depth knowledge of computers (in terms of the average member of the generation) is maximized in millennials, with Gen X and Gen Z having less, and boomers and Gen alpha knowing the least. Gen Alpha mostly uses phones, but whether it is a phone, a game console or a PC they are essentially "magic boxes" for most of them. Most of them don't have any more idea about the details how a PC does what it does than I do how the particle detector at CERN works.
I'm an 81 year old "Boomer" and respectfully you are talking from an area of your anatomy for which it was not designed. People of my generation are likely to have run both Windows and Linux, certainly I have since version 0.1 or thereabouts.
Currently I am dual booting Windows and Deepin which I note was not mentioned either in Liam's original post or so far in the comments but which can do every thing that Windows can and do so with élan.
"People of my generation are likely to have run both Windows and Linux, certainly I have since version 0.1 or thereabouts."
Please don't ascribe your experiences to everyone in your generation. When you were testing version 0.1 of Linux, a lot of people of all generations didn't have a home computer yet. No, most of your generation have not run Linux before, just as a lot of people of all generations have never run it on a desktop, have never run servers, and don't interact with the Linux part on any of the embedded devices that have it. When we're on this site, we can assume that most people who were young in the 1980s programmed a ZX81, that people who were students or young adults in the 1960s or 1970s punched cards, that people alive in the 1990s toyed with Linux, BSD, RISC OS, or BeOS. Oh, and often when we assume this of everyone, we're still wrong. But if you make similar assumptions about the world in general, those assumptions are so often wrong that it rounds to always wrong. Most people did not program anything, ever, and they don't want to do it now, and one of the challenges of getting them to run Linux is convincing them that they don't have to program the computer to make it work (they will count CLI commands as programming). These are not people who have already given it a spin.
"they will count CLI commands as programming"
For the average user this is no more necessary in Linux than in Windows.
As I write SWMBO is using her laptop for something. If you asked her what she's actually using she'd probably tell you "Google". The fact that to access Google, - or the video she's found with it - she's using Seamonkey on Devuan Linux is not particularly significant to her. From a user's PoV it just works in the same way that the same sites would work on some web browser on Windows or Mac.
You are correct, but this is still important because, if the person sees suggestions to use the CLI when they want to do something, it may scare them off. That's why a user-friendly introduction is needed if you want them to use the thing. For example, something that's come up several times in these comments is the following exchange:
Person 1: What if there's some piece of Windows software the user wants?
Person 2: There's probably some Linux equivalent.
Person 1: There's not. / What if there isn't?
Person 2: Use Wine.
Great, the user has their plan. They'll use Wine. So they go to Google and search for Wine on Linux and, after clicking around for a while, they find the most official-looking guide to installing Wine which is entirely CLI-focused, which is fine, because it's aimed at people like us who are fine with and may actively prefer to use the CLI. If you want to convince someone who is less comfortable with that to use Linux and you intend Wine to be an option, then you should suggest something else and provide instructions. The alternatives are to avoid using Wine and have some other answer for the Windows-specific thing or to not bother trying to convince them at all.
"Person 2: There's probably some Linux equivalent."
Let's extend that:
Person 2: There's probably some Linux equivalent. Your start menu has xxxx which is the application that installs applications from the distro's repository your app store and you can install it from there.
Person 1: There's not. / What if there isn't?
Person 2: Use Wine. You can install it from xxxx and then use that to install your Windows application.
Absolutely no need for them to reach for Google and be directed to an CLI installer. Because any distro you'd advise them to install has its GUI interface to the repository which they should be encouraged to use and has Wine in that repository.
And, yes, I'm more likely to install something via Synaptic myself because I can search for it instead of having to remember the exact package name.
"any distro you'd advise them to install has its GUI interface to the repository which they should be encouraged to use and has Wine in that repository."
True, and the Wine wiki I linked to has a bit of a recommendation about those:
Many Linux distributions come with an included Wine package, but due to Wine's rapid development rate these are usually old and often broken versions. It is best to uninstall your distribution's included package versions and update to the latest Wine version available here.
So when you give that advice, you'd better be confident that, should the user try it, your version is going to work. And you'd better direct them away from pages like that which tell them it won't. And we haven't yet gotten to how they're running Wine, and if they'll use one of the frontends around it or not, and which one, and how they configure it. So far, at best, we've installed it. Sometimes, making everything functional to people who don't want to think about complicated things is more complicated than using it the way we do.
I missed the edit window, so to add one more point, I think one of the ways we fail to convince others to use Linux is that we don't understand what they want to do and insist on putting other things in front of it. It happens a lot in these comments. The archetypal example is the constant comparisons between PhotoShop, GIMP, and other photo editors. That's a frustrating one, since I don't use any of them and have no way to know who is right about whether they have the same features or not. In many cases, the points appear to be decided by ideology. I like open source, so the open source program must work, or I find Linux annoying, so the Linux-compatible program must have problems. Neither approach helps, no matter how confidently they say it.
I think a helpful resource could be Louis Rossmann's guide to an open source life. It does two things that are useful. It demonstrates the style that is needed for people who are trying to use the software but don't understand it, and it points out where our tendencies as developers or power users need to change. Some of the things listed in the introduction as reasons that the software isn't more commonly used affect all of us, but because we can use our technical ability to eventually work around them, we forget how big a roadblock that is. People who find it harder to experiment their way through will often stop there. If we want them to use the same tools they are, then we need to change our ways. To some extent, this might be the occasion to decide whether and why we want them to do that so we can take actual steps toward achieving whatever goal we decide on.
"I think a helpful resource could be Louis Rossmann's guide to an open source life."
It's somewhat ironic geiven what he sayas a paragraph or two later that when the guy encourages readers to email him Cloudlare, ever helpful, renders it as "please email [email protected] FOR HELP".
OK. Here are my overall reflections on the matter.
1. It's everyone's right, if they wish, to donate money to and be disrespected by multiple large US corporations. For others -
2. Moving from a Windows base to a Linux one is a platform migration an needs to be planned just as much as a move to a larger server, a move to or retreat from the Cloud somebody else's computer in the bigger IT world. That applies whether it's a home user or a fleet of PCs in a business.
3. The eventual route would depend on what's being used on the computer(s) concerned. The first thing is to evaluate that.
4. If everything's being done via MS <365 or Google work space or whatever and the only thing running locally is a browser with no data held locally then just install something really minimal and a browser. Bonus points if you can remove and reuse the existing storage and boot the whole thing off the smallest SD card you can find.
5. Where what the user habitually uses has cross-platform equivalents install those, encourage the user to use them. It may take some learning and some investigation to do things in different ways. If that's successful then (a) you know that it will work when the migration's completed and (b) the migration's already under way.
6. Where there appear to be equivalents that are not cross platform set up a live distro to test them out as above.
7. Agreed with a lot of the commentators - we need a single distro and that distro needs to be as less unfamiliar looking as possible so I'm suggesting a cut-down Debian or Devuan (my preference is for the latter) installing KDE and - because we can - cosmetics which will make the overall appearance as familiar as possible to a refugee from Windows. They can change it later.
8. This is a bit heretical. I've said numerous times that I don't like sudo, it's a security risk having only the one password for unprivileged and privileged access. OTOH if we're dealing with users who can barely cope with one password and the Debian menus are set up for su rather than sudo access we have to make a concession: suggest to the user that if they want they can use the same password for their ordinary log on or for administration purposes (we'll try to avoid calling it "root") they can but they are strongly advised to use different passwords but it's very important that they remember the administrative one.
9. We'll start off by installing the Linux distro dual boot if only so that we can set up a link to the user's data on Windows.
10. More heresy. If there is Windows software which can't be replaced don't bother with Wine. Virtualise the existing Windows installation and run the application in VirtualBox's Seamless mode or whatever equivalent is provided by whatever virtualisation platform is used. If it's possible to use some of the tricks in Liam's previous articles to shrink the Windows installation or set up one of the minified versions as install the software on that, so much the better.
11. An "app store" is needed. That would be Discover but it needs to be fixed first. This is the KDE application management application. It's reputed to work for some but personally I've never seen it not complain that it can't find network connectivity and from queries online I'm not alone. It will report installed software. It will apply updates that have been downloaded but it will not be able to search for additional packages.
Absolutely. Users need to see 'Nux in use in ordinary ways. To be aware that they can do stuff just like they do in Windows. Then they can feel that it's OK to move across.
They do not need an enthusiast's menu of distros with a technical view on the pros and cons of each. Not would telling them that that they’d soon get used to using the command line be a reassuring promise.They need to know "This does the same job, won't refuse to work on your machine and it's free".
Moving Mrs B from Outlook to Thunderbird to Betterbird* was exactly like that.
*I err, didn't actually tell her that last bit. I just pointed the TB icon to the Betterbird executable.
> whether it is a phone, a game console or a PC they are essentially "magic boxes" for most of them
This also applies to most management and executives of the bulk of tech companies. (And all the PR and marketing people, to a small rounding error.)
Since this includes all the senior decision-makers, it tells you a great deal about the 21st century computing industry.
This reminds me of one of my favorite Star Trek TNG episodes, from a technical support point of view at least: Samaritan Snare.
Short clip demonstrating the gist of the episode:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hSmsrixcUM
At least the aliens are polite, but they are kind of insistent that everything get fixed before he leaves.
boomers and Gen alpha knowing the least
I'm not so sure about your generalisation. I'm a boomer. In my library I have more books about computers, computer languages and cryptography than Waterstones.
I use predominantly Linux but am familiar with Windows and MAC, not to mention a few mini computer systems from the 70s and 80s. I write software and I'm an electronics engineer.
Maybe I'm unusual but I know quite a few other people like me from the U.S. but also British. We grew up with the PC so I'd expect there is more boomers that know about PCs than millennials.
You write software and are an electronics engineer. How many people your age globally are electronics engineers? Consider people who might have done different things with the first decades of their lives and consider how likely they are to have used as much Linux, or any at all, as you have. Similarly, there are some very young people who know everything about Linux because they had a Raspberry Pi as their first and only computer and they can tell you all sorts of little details about kernel structures and how they interact with hardware and how software interacts with them. Do you want to take a person at random of that age and trust them to do kernel dev right?
"You write software and are an electronics engineer."
You do realise that the readership of this site is strongly skewed in that direction, don't you?
Those of us of our generation were not developing and administering computers in a vacuum. We did so to support many users who ere using those computers as part of their work, generally on dumb TTYs and subsequently adapted to text-based PCs and generations of GUI. Those who are still with us will have had a rather wider experience than a younger generation. Don't diss that experience of adapting.
That is a point I made in a similar comment, and you responded to that one, so I know you already saw it. If you're going to make an age-based stereotype, saying that people of a certain age are familiar with computers because you're familiar with computers and are of that age is a very unconvincing way to do it. The fact that many people of that age on this site are familiar with computers doesn't help much, because that's true of literally all the numbers you might put in that have more than zero active forum contributors. I was pointing out that someone who worked on computers is going to have more experience, no matter how old they are, than the people who did something else with their time.
The stereotypes are mostly fallacious because most people have no or very little experience with desktop Linux, no matter how old they are, but if you insist on making them and saying things like "I'd expect there is more boomers that know about PCs than millennials", you have to consider the general public, not your friends who are about your age and worked in the same field versus the millennials you've met by chance. Similarly, you've described one type of experience with computers, the person who built things on all the generations and knows them all inside out, and those people definitely exist, but there's a lot of variation in both groups. I had a friend, now deceased, who was a very knowledgeable programmer from the 1960s through the 1980s, mostly on DEC computers. He needed my help with some basic tasks on modern systems because he retired in the mid 1980s and, presumably, never bothered to deal with computers after that. He would not be right at home in front of desktop Linux any more than he was in front of his Mac. Someone born in the same year who didn't work on any computers would probably have an even harder time, assuming that they didn't voluntarily learn about them later on. Does that mean that all the old computer people don't understand how to convert and archive files? I don't think so. It means that trying to simplify anything into "old people do X, young people do Y" is doomed to failure. But if you want to try anyway, the least you could do is to not make the really obvious broken comparisons.
The readership of this site is, the general population is very definitely not.
Adapting does not always happen, even among experts. I lost a client last year, he was a computer science professor. He did not understand modern computers well at all. I have no doubt that he understood the inner workings of a PDP-7 better than I ever will. But at 92, he just couldn't quite get macOS. He was still giving it his best effort, and really didn't seem to have the kind of cognitive decline that I see in so many people younger than he was, but compared to his previous experience a GUI just never really worked for him. Yeah, he was older than a boomer, but it does carry over.
My experience with boomers has been that skill level varies from "expert" to "barely learned enough to know what to click to keep a job".
My experience with millennials has been about the same, though they usually are better at using a phone.
"'I'm not so sure about your generalisation. I'm a boomer. In my library I have more books about computers, computer languages and cryptography than Waterstones."
Tell me you're not anything like an ordinary user without telling me you're not anything like an ordinary user.
Or to put it in less cliched terms- you are demonstrating that you are an extreme exception and clearly nothing that you think about this is reflected in the ordinary lives of ordinary people.
It's like saying "Anyone can run a Marathon- I do at least 20 miles every day before breakfast"
And ironically, to some extent I'd otherwise actually agree with you. The BBC Micro Sinclair Spectrum and etc. generation grew up with new computers coming out, typed in games and poked values into memory and so on. Not everyone, by any means. But in those new and exciting days there were definitely a lot of (mostly boys) with a lot of computer knowledge and skills. Just like there are a lot of people who do run 10 miles and more quite regularly.
nah, I know not a single millenial who could write a bind config. With failover. Or deduce the reasons why a network is bombing out. The GenX and Boomers? They do.
Millenials know windows. And nothing else. GenZs know how to claw on smartphone screens. And nothing else. GenA can't even read more than three words in a row - and none must be longer than 8 characters - or they are in trouble.
Millennial here, not saying I'm the norm, but I built BIND from source many, many times and configured the domains and zone files and redundancy no problem as I refused to pay a hosting service (a certain one that used to be advertised by an attractive female race car driver) the extra three bucks a month. Built my own kernel for years and years (though I've gotten lazy lately and just take what Fedora or Ubuntu gives me). Ran Slackware from before the artificial version inflation.
I've worked with whiz kid Gen Z/Y folks who knew more about the Intel instruction set than I ever will or ever want to. One of my best friends is Gen X and has taught me more about JVM debugging and performance tuning than I ever wanted to know. I know Baby Boomers who can code a Red-Black Tree in C in their sleep and a skip-list in ASM before morning coffee. It's not about age or generation. It's about interest, aptitude, education, and intellect.
Now my mother, aunts, uncles, cousins, friends, coworkers, and everybody else who calls me for tech support, plugging in an electric tea kettle is a major engineering feat :/
I'm a millennial, I use Linux since early 2000's. I can write scripts (not BIND, mind) and I'm not scared of CLI.I will give stuff a big go on my own if I get stuck rather than ask for help first.
I pulled my stereo system apart at age 6 and started soldering at 8. Love tech to bits, and I'm an introvert :)
This is what has become the difference between someone who is "good with computers" and someone who is "good at using computers".
The first means you can configure and\or build a computer; the second means you can consume things on a computer.
There is a marked difference, and I am not saying one is better than the other, they are just different areas of expertise.
I completely agree. I'm "good with computers" and my wife is "good at using computers". I can build, code, network, and troubleshoot all day, but I usually ask my wife to find something or do research (tbf, she was a lawyer, so trained in that respect). We have disparately different backgrounds and we try to exploit our individual training for the best results.
I find that most young people lack curiosity about how systems work -- they know how to work their system (at speed) but they lack any real understanding of what's going on underneath. I suspect this isn't a new phenomenon -- I'd guess that back when vehicles were relatively novel everyone plus dog knew how to do basic maintenance on a vehicle (which was a simpler design anyway) or knew 'something about radio'.
Today's old folks now include a significant number of people who actually developed the underlying technology which now many people take for granted. They may not appear knowledgeable on the surface because they lack the volumes of empirical data that experts are expected to exhibit but they may have a deep understanding of how things actually work (in other words, what all that empirical knowledge means). Since empirical knowledge is the bedrock of modern marketing (its why we change our systems and interfaces every other week) I don't expect things to change much, just a gradual die off followed by a sort of mass ignorance of an almost religious nature.
That page is a quintessential "How to draw an owl" instruction. It pretends its straightforward, but still manages to use terms that will scare the average computer user off the website. Even before they reach the distro specific instructions.
"distribution" - Is that a shop where I buy it?
"Flash" - Do what?
"correct keyboard combination beforehand" - Correct combination for what? Before what?
"Follow the instructions, and voilà!" - Draw the rest of the owl
As a Mac user, I can’t quite believe I’m about to use a very Windows user argument. Forgive me Gods of open-source.
Replacing the hardware is the cheap part. Yes, I fully subscribe to the argument that you shouldn’t have to, but that isn’t an argument that will carry any weight at the big software vendors. It’s the software that’s expensive. Some open source software is a good match for commercial software, other software doesn’t have a good open source alternative. So, replacing Office is a mostly a straight swap (LibreOffice is good), but there’s no good open source swap for Photoshop or Illustrator, Xcode or Autocad (to pick a few names). There are alternatives, but they don’t quite fit the bill, they’re not quite as capable.
So the cheapest alternative might be a new PC. Or just hacking the latest OS onto your old computer.
While I agree there aren't as many professional applications such as Photoshop, Illustrator or Autocad on Linux. Most of the Windows users that are going to be caught out by the EOL of Windows 10 aren't professionals who would be using these apps.
Its you average Joe who uses a few year old system that works fine for web browsing, light photo editing or office work that is now being forced into having to buy a new PC because MS deemed their perfectly working computer is can't run Windows 11. And they don't have the technical knowledge and skills to be able to confidently install Linux or ChromeOS. So end up having to shell out on a new PC.
Home users don't use Illustrator, Photoshop, Xcode or Autocad or one of those hundred Windows only programs.
The article and that site are all about home users who will believe the crap MS and the 'security experts' and newspapers will spew and trash perfectly good computers because 'you will own nothing and be happy about it'.
It's about educating the common people, not the people in the know.
Yes, I do use Linux, why do you ask? Yes, I dual boot/use a Windows VM for digital signing PDFs with a hardware token. Yes, my wife's (MD) practice uses Windows as the special software imposed by the Ministry of Health is Windows only.
I'm an IT professional but my hobby is photography. And I do use Lightroom and Photoshop on my personal PC, while I don't use them at work. And other photo-related software. And Logitech devices and Canon printers which aren't supported in Linux.
Your assertion is incredibly arrogant and stupid - classic Linuxtard. A lot of "home" users aren't Facebook/TikTok addicted that only use a web browser. Those probably today don't even use a PC, and do everything on their phone.
Lightroom doesn't work fine in a VM if you know what you're doing and are using a color calibrated workflow, especially for printing.
If you just need to edit your phone photos, and know nothing about proper photo editing and color workflow, you can do it under Linux too. Otherwise you use Windows or a Mac.
And does Lightroom 14.3 still runs under XP? I don't think so.
As usual, Linux fanboys have a very low expectations from the software they use - probably because they don't know more.
Darktable doesn't even need a VM. Or a subscription... steep learning curve, but I jumped ship because I didn't want to be milked every year rather than just owning software like in the old days.
> I'm an IT professional but my hobby is photography. And I do use Lightroom and Photoshop on my personal PC, while I don't use them at work. And other photo-related software. And Logitech devices and Canon printers which aren't supported in Linux.
Your personal experience is valid, yes, but it says nothing, because I can say the same from the Linux perspective: I am also an IT professional. My hobby is astrophotography, my telescope (Skywatcher) and astro camera (QHYCCD) are manged from Linux (from my laptop, x86_64, and also from a RPI 5, arm64) without any problem, drivers available. The capture software like AstroDMx and INDI controllers like Ekos (KStart) run natively on Linux. Planetarium software like Stellarium and KStars also run natively on Linux. Some photo stacker software (like Autostakker) run under Wine perfectly well. Gimp/KDE Showphoto for the final touches. BTW... I also have a Logitech webcam, and HP laser jet printer, both work OK on Linux.
It says far more than you think - or I could say your personal experience says nothing too. There's a lot of "home users" that use software and devices which are not available under Linux., for very different tasks. Asserting they don't its plainly stupid, the kind of "religious" stupidity that makes the Linux community highly toxic for agnostics.
Of course it depends on the sector you're interested in. A lot of astrophotagphers who make panoramic images using wide-angle leses in cameras do you use Mac/Windows software.
Or the many ones into wildlife photography, or street photography, etc. etc. Just to talk about a sector I know well.
Go to any photo course, even for amateurs, and nobody will tell you to edit your photos on Linux - that's the "sad" truth.
In my extended range of acquaintances, which is several hundred of peoples, I am the only one who does photography as a hobby.
I do not use photoshop.
I do not use lightroom.
I use darktable.
I am subscribed to the school that the picture should be as close to perfect right out of the camera. So apart from lens corrections, some contrast, light level and black level stuff, I have no need to turn a camera picture into a photoshop painting.
I also know noone who uses Canon printers anymore. Because those that tried, got burned.
If I want to have a print of one of my photos, I order it. A3 or bigger.
Most people, really MOST use their boxes for:
youtube, instragram, facebook, netflix or amazon prime video, spotify, some puzzles and general browsing.
That's it.
And they do not need windows for that.
So evidently you know nothing about real photography, and never heard for example about Addam's zone system. Due to inherent limitations in film before and sensors now, there's no way you can get an image "close to perfect" in any situation. There's a reason for a long time photographers preferred B/W to color - B/W allowed "extensive" post-processing in the dark room, and excellent photographers worked with excellent photo printers to achieve the result they wanted. Weston was a master of the dark room, Adam's system requires to take a negative in a specific way that will yeld the final image if - and only if - processed according the negative itself. But "burning" and "dodging" were the norm even without it. Or you could simply get too dark shadows and burned out highlights - even if the exposition is "correct".
The "unsharp mask" was developed in film labs, hence the name. Amd you still need to sharpen appropriately - and what Darktable especially lacks is proper automatic output sharpening - nor yo can use one of the good plugins available under Mac or Windows, like Nik Sharpener. The good of output sharpening is it can be automatically computed given the output device charcteristics - so it's something a computer can do very well on its own. And LR PixelGenius' technology works very well.
Sure, with slide films you had no other option that trying to get the "perfect" image, as you can't process nothing easily - since most later color photo processing was very complex and usually very expensive (i.e the Kodak dye transfer process), and few could afford it. But for example a photographer like Franco Fontano used slide duplication to achieve the result he wanted.
Anyway, even if your campera can capture 14-16bit images than you have to bing them into 8-bit JPEGs for most viewers.
Where most post-processing is not allowed is just reportage - because there there's always the risk you can lie.
I think I will write a book about moving from Windows to Linux - the title will be "Low Expectations".
It’s a good point about light home use users - but these are the users who are likely to be the least technically savvy. And, much as I don’t like to say this (because I like Linux), Linux does not have the consistency of user interface and applications to be usable for this contingent. Great for you and me, not so great for a casual user, grandpa and grandma. Not without significant technical support anyway.
Why, if you're using KDE, would you need to faff with fstab for an SMB share? Just use Dolphin* to set it up.
For non-KDE users this is the file manager and, although it will come as a surprise to some of the Windows boosters it's a fully graphical file manager, no CLI required. I'm told the Windows equivalent eventually caught up with it by acquiring tabs.
'Linux does not have the consistency of user interface and applications to be usable for this contingent'
This just isn't true, and hasn't been for years.
If anyone is expecting Linux to be 'Windows, with a penguin', then they are, very sadly, just being naive. Sometimes we do actually have to make a little bit of effort in order to change.
I know enough 'ordinary non-techy people' using Linux without any particular difficulty, and certainly without having to battle with 'the system', to know that most people, with just a little bit of effort and initial hand-holding, very quickly just get on with their 'new' way of working, which isn't that much different to their 'old' way of working. And the apps they generally use are perfectly usable, buy the standards of the 'Windows' software which they have come from using.
A friend of mine - aged 76, but still going strong - received a mail from his local Pensioners Association. "If you run Windows 10, we will help you install Linux Mint instead". All 20 seats were booked in a day!
So of course I did the install for him, on a new disk so he could try if it would work for him. Thats is 5 weeks ago, and he is quite happy with it. The biggest challenge was to find a photo editor with enough features to do what he needed, but not so big as to be targeted at professionals. GIMP and DarkTable are not really intuitive, unless you have worked a lot with digital photo editing before.
As another KDE user - KolorPaint is very basic.
When I say Pinta sometimes has problems adding straight line segments on a large map I'm adding them as an overlay on maybe the third of fourth layer at 50% opacity so the base map shows through and will be saving the result as a .ora. KolorPaint is not the tool for that job. I would very much like to see it updated so that it could be. Krita is also not the tool for the job - it's aimed at digital art creation for which Pinta would not be appropriate.
But, hey, this is Linux so we can stock up on multiple graphics tools.
I think you're missing the point here: if you need DarkTable
1- you've got a DSLR and know what that means
2- you're familiar with RAW and the workflow
3- you have the necessary knowledge to move that workflow across different apps
The GIMP will *never* be an alternative to PS because it doesn't *want* to be one. It's not like LibreOffice vs. MS Office, where compatibility and familiarity are the main (only?) issues. I've been using Linux for the past 21+ years or so and I still can't understand GIMP. Maybe I never gave it enough time, maybe I'm just stubborn (no I'm not, I always find new and exotic things to do with bash, in Slackware times I recompiled my own kernel as soon as a new version was available) or maybe the GIMP's UI is not meant to be a migration for PS users. I don't care, because other apps, now that my Nikon has been stolen and I don't have to deal with RAW or HDR composites, suit my needs.
But keep one thing in mind: GIMP is as much a part of Linux as is GNU. After all, what does GTK stand for??? Excluding KDE, almost ALL other UIs on Linux exist *because* of GIMP.
I don't use it, I don't understand it, but I acknowledge its importance well beyond the Photo Editor itself.
I'm old enough to be a grandpa. I use Linux.
OK, I'm somewhat technically savvy. My octogenarian dad, on the other hand, struggles even with the notions of files and folders, and yet he too uses Linux (Mint) on his desktop, no problem whatsoever. In fact it works for him much better than any version of Windows that he used previously.
-A.
I AM a grandfather (81 this year) and I plan to upgrade my wife's PC from Windows 10 to Linux (probably Mint) before WIN 10 goes EOL.
Im guessing that as her usage rotates between Thunderbird, Firefox and Word (to be replaced by LibreOffice) she probably won't find much that is different
I tried Thunderbird many years ago and I was not really impressed by it as it was clunky feeling.
I've reinstalled it recently to access a Gmail account for some testing and I really like it now.
it feels a lot more polished and I don't mean Fisher Price Windows polished, I mean it is intuitive to use.
And was gratuitous in that comment (which was IMHO a fair point otherwise).
I work with some fairly young adults who can just about use Windows machines (with LO because there's no budget for an installed version of Office- luckily IMHO).
Ideally I'd have started them with 'Nux, but the refurbished (charity) PCs they're given and which we use with them come with Win10 on. I gather there are a lot in the pipeline too (<sarc> can't think why </sarc> )
Windows is the default- recognisable OS for most ordinary users.The more that we can show that we use 'Nux in the same way the more chance there is that this will change. Not being precious about our favourite flavour of command line distro would be a good start.
Mint or Zorin ( I like and use the latter on my 'Nux machine- I'm looking to see if I can switch my Yoga 7 convertible to it, too. It's all about the hardware support, of course ) would be good.
"The more that we can show that we use 'Nux in the same way the more chance there is that this will change. Not being precious about our favourite flavour of command line distro would be a good start."
Then why not set up those PCs to dual boot? And why would you consider a command line distro as al alternative?
Start with "Here's six pictures, choose one you like the look of". Make it clear that they can easily change their mind afterwards.
Step two is "download this and run it".
The vast majority of people only need a browser, LibreOffice and Steam for games.
They don't care what it's called, so don't make that front and centre. Just a few pictures so they can see it looks basically the same as Win XP, 7 or 10 - whichever they prefer.
Then install, migrate their browser details over and there you go.
Done.
They don't need to know that Steam uses Proton which is a fork of WINE, or that their distro is an Ubuntu or Debian or whatever. Or even that systemd exists. They can find that out later if they care - which they likely don't.
We ship products based on both Windows IoT and Linux. Most of our customers don't even notice, let alone care which. All they see is that it does the things they want.
Probably we're misunderstanding each other but broadly in agreement. Your comment "Not being precious about our favourite flavour of command line distro would be a good start." seems to suggest we'd encourage new users to install CLI-only distros.
Also, you seemed to be saying you'd like to introduce the users to Linux but are stuck with Windows PCs. In that case installing Linux alongside Windows might cause less friction with your charity - and and dual Linux/Windows installation I've seen puts Linux at the top of the list and boots it by default so in that case it could become seen as normal and Windows as that oddity at the bottom of the list.
I'm now starting to wonder whether it might not be better to recommend Debian or Devuan from the start. I'm coming round to the view that the usual suggestions, Ubuntu, Mint & Zorin are all suffering from not invented here syndrome and seeking to differentiate themselves by throwing in odd gimmicks. Maybe a simpler installer that omits Tasksel and installs a pre-determined desktop (preferably KDE as it would be closer to what users might have experienced with Windows).
With each layer you remove, you increase the number of things you'll have to fix. Mint or Zorin are huge, but they have tested the configuration they release and made sure a lot of things are present and functional. Ubuntu figured out several of the things that Debian left up to the user. When it's my machine, I don't mind having to do a little custom-building, and I'd rather do a bit of that than have to deal with a suboptimal default that's harder to remove. That is not the case for a place trying to give unfamiliar people new OS installs.
If you're trying to convert people to Linux en masse, your most likely bottleneck will be availability of technical users' time. That means you want as many things to be easy to do without needing any tweaking. That means, for example, that if there's a piece of software that a lot of people want and only works when there's systemd, you use the bloody systemd whether you like it or not. The alternative is that you use the same time to convert three people, because most of it is spent trying to implement compatibility with the older init with that application, that you could have spent converting fifty people who could click on the app's name. Alternatively, you tell a lot of people that their system can't run that and they leave, annoyed. Alternatively, you explain to people why there's a difference and they grow confused about init systems and why it's bad that Leonard works at Microsoft and leave, annoyed. Your idea actually sounds closer to not invented here since you're going to end up redoing some of the things distros exist to do, just at a smaller and probably less maintainable scale.
Yes. I have used a lot of things. What I haven't tried to do is to switch a hundred people to any one of them with the hope that they won't be cursing my name tomorrow or requiring me to spend weeks helping each one out. If I decided I wanted to do the latter, I'd be looking for something that made their systems as standard and as easy to use as possible, which is often the opposite of what I look for for my personal machines. On those, they're mine, so I want them to work exactly the way I tell them to. If that means I have to do extra work to get around something my choice didn't build in, then I'll do that extra work. Sometimes, I specifically want to avoid something the more complex systems built in and I don't want. I know people who custom-built distros for their family, with everything nicely integrated and remotely administerable, and I can and have done similar things. That took a lot of work, and I can't and don't want to do it at a large scale.
Also a (young, 71) grandpa. Linux Mint, and before that, Ubuntu, and before that, something else, all the way back to the late 90s. I used Ethernet when it was a thick yellow cable in the ceiling.
I loaded up Mint on my non-tech brother's PC, when I got tired of having to go over to fix his Windows machine after an update borked something or other. Went from once a momth to once a year service calls.
If you don't know what version of Linux to load, just get Mint. Extra credit: buy a 500G SSD and swap it into your PC in place of your Windows drive. Install Mint on the SSD (you can always swap your Windows drive backmin if you hate Linux). Give Linux a try.
45RPM
Ages ago I set my dad up with Linux and he used it happily enough (ironically due to him having accepted Win 10 update that MS essentially forced upon users ages ago by dark patterns) - this left his PC in a constant part install / fail cycle.
As he had all the key docs, images he needed backed up on flash drives (hi used webmail anyway so that was all available) then I just fixed the windows issue by chucking on kubuntu.
He used that happily, only switching back to windows when he got a new PC just because it had windows pre-installed and so used what was there (he died in his 80s and so was in the grandad category)
He just did web browsing, email, a few docs, getting images from his camera, a bit of image manipulation then printing some of those photos, occasional video streaming. All basic home user stuff that did not need windows only software. Many home users have that same easy use case.
"Linux does not have the consistency of user interface and applications to be usable for this contingent."
An WIndows is?
"Great for you and me, not so great for a casual user, grandpa and grandma."
Would a 90-year-ld be a good comparison? Not a grandma - sadly her children let her down in that respect - but she's been using Zorin for ages. Even her Windows using children manage to use it on her PC.
Both my CiL and self are both Yorkshire folk as it happens. The reason she's on Zorin is because years ago when she was using Windows it got hit by ransomware. Fortunately rather crude ransomware so the unencrypted files were recoverable - using a Linux-based live ISO of course. Switching to Linux prevented a recurrence of that.
"Linux does not have the consistency of user interface and applications"
On second thoughts I'll go along with this to some extent. Not that that excuses Windows changes of UI from version to version. Nor does Microsoft's behaviour excuse this bit:
GTK. Once upon a time GTK applications would follow the user's desktop icon theme on toolbars. Icons were one of the shared resources. A distro might default to a particular icon set but an individual user could choose their own. QT based applications still do this. Then GTK built an icon set into a library. I suppose this was a move towards consistency as they understood it but what it means is that they stopped playing nicely with applications not using GTK.
To have consistency now the desktop theme needs to be set to their own icon set and stuff user choice. It doesn't help that their icon set looks like something a young child would have drawn although my granddaughter would have been ashamed to have been that child since the age of about 5.
Then along came GTK 4...
Other aspects such as scroll-bars have also been affected by this.
Kudos to LibreOffice who, in the interests of being a good cross-platform application, designed the UI as a separate layer. Although it doesn't use the desktop's shared icons but it allows for icon sets to be loaded as add-ons.
The current situation on my dsktop, therefore, is:
KDE applications have a UI consistent with what I've been using for years. Any other application built with QT will follow that.
GTK2 applications likewise.
LibreOffice looks as if it belongs as my chosen icon theme is available
Odds and ends I've written with Lazarus are also consistent.
GTK3 applications are consistent between themselves but inconsistent with the desktop's theme and, to my eyes, ugly.
GTK4 applications are currently broken - it might be fairly new but somewhere along the line they have already suffered bit-rot during the life of the current Debian although, at least for the time being they're restored to their even greater ugliness on Trixie which will become the current Debian next month.
I've been slowly switching across to Linux for a while with just one Windows 10 machine left in the house now.
One single point of uncertainty on my Windows 10 setup was its old copy of Photoshop Elements 9. Couldn't get the installer to fire up in Bottles so tried out a offline Windows VM using Virtualbox and installed it in there. Perfect? No, but Ubuntu does everything else I ask of it including gaming via Steam. There's always a way to get things working.
I had zero knowledge of Virtualbox until a week or two ago, it was surprisingly simple to set up and get going. I type this as a relative "newbie" who only started using Linux and indeed tinkering with computers in September 2022 when resuscitating my 2011 MacBook Pro from its several year slumber under the bed. Now it's a perfectly good daily driver again.
Ref "slowly switching over to Linux" I persisted with W7 for several years after it went EoL, but was getting nervous that it wasn't a good idea. I'm self employed & all my accounts, banking etc were done on my main desktop, but I am pretty strongly change-averse. (Daily driver is a 1997 Volvo V90 that I've still got because it's never once let me down & my needs haven't changed, so why replace it? Feel much the same about OS's.)
I'm 59, didn't start with computers until the Internet gave me a use for them, & then mostly on old W95 machines that needed a certain amount of beating to keep them going. I hate being dependent on other people for anything, & after 20+ years fixing cars (Saabs mostly) & another 20 housebashing I have a pragmatic "it's all nuts & bolts, other people manage, how hard can it be?" attitude to most things. Relative to the El Reg cohort I'm firmly a "Luser" but amongst friends & relations I appear to be techy, a fairly common situation I think.
Then a mate drowned my beloved X220i7 (that I use for Lightroom when doing photography away from home) in a large glass of red wine, & I bought a s/h X270i7 (don't like the keyboard & no caps lock status led, in case you're interested) & it came with W10.
I've been loitering in the shadows of El Reg for long enough to have absorbed the general prejudice against W10 that pervades the place, so it was probably never going to end well, & sure enough I hated it, different for the sake of it, & usually worse from my point of view, & generally pushed all my change aversion buttons.
Thanks to El Reg & the gentle nudging from a geographically distant former Saab customer, now friend, that was in IT when it was all mainframes the size of buses I was aware of Linux & had, in about 2000, tried a Knoppix live CD & completely failed to make any sense of it, & scuttled back to the familiarity of XP, & subsequently, W7.
Seeing W10 as the thin end of a very thick wedge I read up on "best Linux for total Newbs" & as you'd expect installed Mint on my desktop machine. No dual boot, (but on a new, separate M2, so I could swap back if I really had to, so not quite cold turkey.)
It was OK. There were stumbling blocks, & I still struggle to uninstall anything that wasn't installed via a package manager. (I avoid Snap & Flatpack unless I really can't make something work otherwise.) I was comfortable-ish doing regedits under Windoze, as long as I was only following written instructions in a "monkey see / monkey do" fashion, & largely carry that attitude into Cli use under Linux (though as a long-term user of Get_iPlayer I was at least familiar with it prior to making the jump.)
After two years my Mint installation was getting a bit flaky, probably because of all the broken install / uninstall cycles early on while I was getting it into a form I could work with, & I was becoming concerned about the implications of systemD (El Reg again) so set a day aside & installed MX Linux with KDE in its systemD-free form, & I'm pleased to say that I'm now entirely happy, & rolling it out as dual boot across my pile of X220s & the X270. (There are various car diagnostic tools for which there is no Linux version, & one of the X220s lives plugged into the TV on guest wifi as a streamer. It has software on it to copy content off a Sky+ box, & again, no Linux version AFAIK?)
Why have I posted this long rambling screed? Mainly to put a mention up for MX Linux as no-one else had. If I can use a systemD-free distro then any home "Luser" can. I'm going to be offering to support various of my aging, skint friends on MX over the next few months if they want to try it. It'll be very much the blind leading the blind, but it seems a worthwhile gesture in the face of MS continued & wilful behaviour toward its users. When I installed Mint I'd seen plenty of references to MX, but always in the context of it being "best for gaming" & I don't do any of that (beyond freecell on XP about 25 years ago) so I ignored it, but got there in the end.
(PS Darktable is a good substitute for Lightroom, have a look at the excellent Bruce Williams YouTube tutorials to help you make the change).
> no good open source swap for Photoshop or Illustrator, Xcode or Autocad (to pick a few names)
Photoshop -> GIMP
Illustrator -> Inkscape
Xcode is for macOS, so how does that relate to Windows 10 ?
Autocad -> librecad (2D) and freecad (3D) or BRL‑CAD (Been about since 1979, used by the U.S Military. BRL originally stood for "Ballistic Research Laboratory")
Every time I see the GIMP being shown as a Photoshop replacement I laugh. The GIMP is NOT anything nearly sufficient to replace Photoshop. I have tried it, on Macs and Linux, for years. The UI sucks and has got _worse_ over time. It is missing tools which I, a very casual and totally not professional Photoshop user, rely on; I have see professional users attempt to use the GIMP, swear at it, and dig out an old copy of Photoshop or go and buy Affinity Photo instead. Affinity Photo manages to be a Photoshop replacement; it's not perfect, by any means, but it is far better than the GIMP. Pro users around here say that the GIMP is useless for real work.
Whenever I see someone advocate using the GIMP I tend to disregard any of their other opinions as the act of saying that the GIMP can replace Photoshop is sufficiently laughable to make anything else they say... questionable.
"Every time I see the GIMP being shown as a Photoshop replacement I laugh. "
Not sure why you've been downvoted when you're absolutely correct. GIMP isn't anywhere close to be a PhotoShop replacement, and yes, the only real alternative is Affinity Photo which is Mac OS only.
It's no different for the constant recommendation of LibreOffice as replacement for MS Office, even though it's at best on a level of Office 2000. There are so many problems which should have been addressed years ago but the developers rather focus on minor stuff and optics (and yet, the UX still sucks as well). LibreOffice Base is a rotting corpse which would be better cut off rather than left festering as the mess it is. The sad thing is that there actually are modern office applications for Linux, such as OnlyOffice or Softmaker Office, yet it's LibreOffice which gets recommended for Linux newbies.
These recommendations really do more harm than good.
We can probably agree on LO Base. But:
"and yet, the UX still sucks as well The sad thing is that there actually are modern office applications for Linux, such as OnlyOffice or Softmaker Office, yet it's LibreOffice which gets recommended for Linux newbies."
However, neither OnlyOffice or Softmaker Office have database applications so it can't be that that makes you thing of them as "modern office applications" in a way that you think LibreOffice isn't. What could it be.
Could it be the ribbon UI? I always saw that as Microsoft's delaying tactic. They'd had their arm twisted to standardise thair file format (after a fashion) which not only deprived them of contagious planned obsolescence to drive sales but also meant they could no longer provide a moving target for LibreOffice. So they forced a new UI on their user base "because we can" hoping it would take time for LibreOffice to catch up. Or maybe I'm wrong and it was just to present something new to fashion victims.
In any event, if that's your criterion you're probably too unfamiliar with LibreOffice to be aware that it's well past being "experimental" and your "modern office" UI - or UX if you prefer - is 4 clicks away. I suppose they could have made it the default but they respect their existing user base rather more than Microsoft did.
Hardly anyone uses the database element though, even in M$ land. Access is crap, and anyone wanting to do actual database work tends to use something based on one of the flavours of SQL (PostgresSQL seems popular these days). For the majority of users, equivalents to Word, Excel and Powerpoint are the main requirement, plus a mail client of some sort.
Softmaker Office is the best alternative which I've tried, but many organisations will have requirements for Excel plugins and integrations with CRM / accounting systems, and will therefore have to stick with M$.
For the purposes of image manipulation, GNU Image Manipulation Program is the best program in the world.
It does real work much better than any proprietary program ever has, as it never crashes on GNU/Linux-libre.
It does drawing too, although it is not really great at that - you'd want to install Krita for that.
For vector graphics you'll want Inkscape.
The result is everything you need to get work done if you don't have skill issues.
"Affinity Photo" is just as bad as photoshop, as it tramples the users freedom just as hard.
And, from your perspective where the most important factor is how free you are to modify and distribute the source to a program, you are right. From the perspective of the people targeted by the website mentioned in the article, it's not important at all. A lot of people do not intend to modify the source of anything. They often don't understand why we care about being allowed to, and when I have, at long last, explained it to them, they understand why I care but not why they would want to.
Someone in that position will not care about freedom to modify the source. They will be asking questions like "is there anything I can do with Photoshop which I can't do with GIMP". I don't know the answer; I use neither of those. If the answer includes things they use or plan to, they're not going to accept source freedom as a reason not to care. If the answer is that they have the same features but the GIMP interface is worse, they're not going to accept source freedom as a reason not to care. I don't know what the difference actually is, but I see a lot of people saying there is a massive difference in feature set and interface quality and spirited defenses. Some of those defenses are obviously motivated by support for the source license, which makes their opinions on the feature set less convincing, but not all of them seem as motivated by ideology. You are willing to accept source freedom as a reason not to care about almost everything, but that's not going to convince the people this site exists to convince.
>is how free you are to modify and distribute the source to a program
That is only 2 of the 4 essential freedoms; https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html#four-freedoms
>From the perspective of the people targeted by the website mentioned in the article, it's not important at all.
Everyone deserves freedom even if they didn't have any freedom at all previously and therefore didn't realise it was a thing.
>A lot of people do not intend to modify the source of anything.
That may be true, but they may want to do so in the future, or to ask or pay someone else to do so, thus it is unacceptable to deny such freedom.
>is there anything I can do with Photoshop which I can't do with GIMP
The answer is that GIMP can do some things photoshop can't do and photoshop can do some things GIMP can't do and completing some tasks may take longer than photoshop (while some tasks take less time), but GIMP at least respects the users freedom, does not spy on the user, does not take the users work and use it to assist someone else making proprietary works via neural network based image mixing/copying and doesn't cost the user a fortune; https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/when-free-software-isnt-practically-superior.en.html
When it comes to free software that undergoes a lot of development work, eventually the software advances enough that it has no parallel when it comes to proprietary software, even with all the proprietary sabotage in its way (proprietary file formats etc) and with features not allowed to be implemented (due to software patents), but that is years or decades away for any program and it makes no sense on the way to shun such free software totally just because some tasks are harder or cannot be done (although doing so under the "open source" frame of thinking that is only about powerful functionality, which cannot explain why to bother if there does exist functional deficiencies).
>If the answer includes things they use or plan to, they're not going to accept source freedom as a reason not to care.
Yes, if you only mention 2 of the 4 freedoms, there is no possible reason why they would have a reason to care.
>Some of those defenses are obviously motivated by support for the source license
The GPLv3-or-later requires freedom for both the source code and the binaries.
"That is only 2 of the 4 essential freedoms;"
Thank you for that. Of course, I had never heard of them before. It's not as if I wanted to get to the point without copying an entire blog post. But I'm sure your clarification statement was helpful to somebody.
"Everyone deserves freedom even if they didn't have any freedom at all previously and therefore didn't realise it was a thing."
You didn't read closely enough. Read again. It wasn't that they "didn't realize". They don't care. In order to convince them, you need to explain, to them, not to me, because I already care, why they should care. And, when you've tried and failed as many, including me, have before you, you will need to take the next step and understand what they will care about. Of the four freedoms, three are almost entirely useless to someone who cannot read code and don't intend either to learn how themselves or to ask someone else to do it for them. To the average nontechnical person, your argument sounds like this:
You: This car is better than yours. You should switch to it.
Them: I like my car. Why should I use yours?
You: Because mine gives you freedom.
Them: It doesn't have a steering wheel.
You: You steer with pedals on the floor. You'll get used to it.
Them: How do you accelerate?
You: The buttons over near the glove box.
Them: What freedom does it give me again?
You: You're allowed to melt down the door panels.
Them: I don't want to melt down the door panels, and I couldn't manage it properly if I wanted to.
Until you understand their position, you'll keep telling them things about freedom which they don't understand, don't care about, or think you're deluded about. You need to correctly describe the deficiencies in the alternative, deficiencies that actually exist and don't take the form of "it doesn't have freedom", because they won't understand that and it won't make sense even if you explain it. Have you ever heard the people who protest things, but you can't tell, even after discussing with them, what they're protesting against or what they want to replace it with and you get the idea that they don't know either but they like protesting something? To people who don't already know what the four freedoms are and value them independently of your arguments, you sound like those people. We understand you, but nobody will realize what freedoms they don't have if you keep doing this. Break your loop.
>It wasn't that they "didn't realize". They don't care.
If people are not informed that x is a thing, they have never even considered if they care about x or not.
>Of the four freedoms, three are almost entirely useless to someone who cannot read code and don't intend either to learn how themselves or to ask someone else to do it for them.
That is not true. Everyone benefits from all 4 freedoms even if most individuals don't intend to learn how to read code, how to program or ask someone else to make a change.
Sharing copies of software does not require knowing how to read code either.
>To the average nontechnical person, your argument sounds like this:
Such following exchange is ludicrous - GNU/Linux has GUI's and shells that are far easier to use than the joke of a GUI and shell's that proprietary OS's come with now (it's called powers hell for a reason) - they just don't happen to be exactly the same and contain the same defects.
A more likely exchange would be;
Me: This GNU/Car is the best there is, you should use it.
Them: I like my car. Why should I use yours?
Me: Since it respects your freedom and will therefore actually be your car - all the software comes with the 4 freedoms and it does not come with spyware (both inside and outside), malware, a backdoor that will drive you to a torture prison on command, proprietary software in the doors that will lock you in the car when it lights on fire and digital handcuffs.
Them: But I feel it doesn't have a steering wheel, as the interface isn't exactly the same.
Me: It can be steered via a selection of steering wheels (a number of desktop environments), or with a keyboard (GNU bash & GNU Emacs), or with any other steering mechanism you wish. If you want a steering wheel that looks the closest to windows', maybe you want KDE?
Them: How do you accelerate?
Me: With the GNU/Pedals, or with the z key, or with whatever input you wish.
Them: But I don't like the GNU/Brown colour of the pedals, what freedom does it give me again?
Me: All of them - for example you can change the pedal colour if you wish.
>Until you understand their position
I understand their position quite well.
If someone doesn't care about their own freedom after being suitably informed, it's their loss and they will continue to face proprietary software and its consequences.
>You need to correctly describe the deficiencies in the alternative
Yes, the replacements aren't exactly the same, but when it comes to simple computer usage, you will not have any problems doing the vast majority of tasks - the defect rate of the software is far lower than the wares microsoft offers.
There does exist proprietary sabotage, which is not a deficiency with the software, which I describe when relevant.
>but nobody will realize what freedoms they don't have if you keep doing this. Break your loop.
People will never realize what freedoms they don't have if I speak in alternatives and functional enhancements only.
*eye roll*
If your argument for "IT's the best program in the world" is "It doesn't crash" - your bar is rather low.
I use about half the creative suite (Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, Premiere, AfterEffects) almost every day, as well as CaptureOne as a Raw Engine. I don't believe I have seen a "Crash" of any of that software in at least the last 3 years.
I have had Network Manager in Rocky Linux "Crash" just 3 days ago on a production box, and random "I don't think I want these NICs in this bond anymore" behavior within Linux multiple times RECENTLY.
Prating about "Trampling the user's freedom" makes you sound like a silly zealot. You are absolutely free to use crap software, and I am absolutely free to point out that, yes, it is crap software.
The real question with any large scale "creator" tools is:
Does it steal your work without acknowledgement or compensation to train AI's to generate similar work compete against you?
What does your EULA say on the matter I wonder?
You almost need a lawyer to buy "creator" software these days to protect your work.
>"IT's the best program in the world" is "It doesn't crash"
I didn't write that - that was only one point.
GIMP is the best image manipulation program in the world, as it at least respects the users freedom *and* is also functionally great *and* it doesn't crash (at least for stable versions - development versions do crash, as all development software does).
>I don't believe I have seen a "Crash" of any of that software in at least the last 3 years.
That would by very surprising if that occurred.
>I have had Network Manager in Rocky "Crash"
That isn't GIMP and yes, software from nonfreedesktop like NetworkManager isn't the best.
>I don't think I want these NICs in this bond anymore
Let me guess, those NIC's run proprietary software? (popularly incorrectly referred to as "firmware").
If so, I wouldn't blame Linux for such behavior.
>"Trampling the user's freedom" makes you sound like a silly zealot.
If stating what is occurring sounds like zealotry, you should see when I go full GNU/Zealot.
Yes, LibreOffice is very good. GIMP is quite a reasonable alternative to Photoshop - yes, it works differently to Photoshop, and there will be a learning curve, but to date I have yet to find any task which I used to do in Photoshop which cannot be done just as well in GIMP. Inkscape is a very powerful vector graphics package like Illustrator. I used to be considered a Corel Draw power user, and now regard Inkscape as a good (even if not quite as good) alternative to Corel. I always preferred Corel to Illustrator, but that probably reflects familiarity and the type of work I was doing, as much as the respective merits of each package. But Inkscape is good and, like Libre Office and GIMP, it is free.
Xcode I don't know enough about to comment on, and while there are decent basic (free) CAD packages available for Linux, I would agree that there is (as yet) nothing available to compete with the power of Autocad. I understand that it can be run in Linux using Codeweavers Crossover, but I have no personal experience of this.
To sum up, my personal decision in the face of the imminent demise of a usable Windows system is to switch to Linux. Not only do I move to an infinitely more user-friendly, stable, easy to maintain, nag free OS, but I also recover a nice 2Tb SS hard drive which I can put to much better use. No brainer.
What price Windows 11 / 12 now?
The GIMP is NOT a reasonable alternative to Photoshop. This amateur Photoshop user is quite able to find things that Photoshop does easily that the GIMP makes difficult when it can do them at all. Bloody hell, the GIMP has problems matching certain features of Graphic Converter, a small shareware (remember that?) image manipulation app which I’ve suuported since 1994 or 5. The GIMP has one advantage, and one only: it’s free. It has many disadvantages starting with its UI, which was bad in the first place and has become worse over time.
I have scrapped all things Adobe and now have assorted Affinity products. I have tried the GIMP… and have always removed it from the test machine because it stinks up the place.
For my needs Photoshop stopped being useful at version 7. Which I could run on Linux with Wine, BTW. When forced back on Win, Paint.NET was a no-brainer (but still, no PS7). Now Pinta, but still, not even remotely on par with PS7.
Yes, PS7 is one of those program versions that set a milestone, like Word 5.1 (if you had a Mac in those years) - everything before was pitiful, everything after was bloated and insane.
>> What price Windows 11 / 12 now?
Sadly it's free most of the time (to lure users), or about 20 USD for a totally new license. It's an OSaaS, so the initial price doesn't really matter anyway. Nadella will make you pay for everything else, most of which you don't even want or need...
>GIMP is quite a reasonable alternative to Photoshop
GIMP intends to replace all proprietary image manipulation software, rather than to be a mere alternative.
>But Inkscape is good and, like Libre Office and GIMP, it is free.
They are all free as in freedom, although they happen to usually be gratis as well.
>Xcode I don't know enough about to comment on
It's an IDE and there exists many free software IDEs that are functionally better when it comes to writing software, unless you want to write proprietary software for fruity toys (but you shouldn't do that).
>decent basic (free) CAD packages available for Linux
OpenSCAD and FreeCAD are both free as in freedom CAD's and are available for GNU/Linux and other OS's.
They are quite advanced now and they can do many advanced tasks just fine, although they do require a high level of user skill to carry out such tasks.
>it can be run in Linux using Codeweavers Crossover
"Codeweavers crossover" is a proprietary version of WINE that usually does not talk to the kernel, Linux - it makes POSIX function calls, which are handled by several libraries, including glibc.
Yes, you can run most proprietary windows program in WINE on GNU/Linux now (with some workarounds still required in many cases and most complete breakage caused by intentional sabotage (some programs contain a malicious feature that detects if WINE is being used and refuse to run if so)).
But doing so is bizarre, as you are taking an OS that has the sole purpose of existence to be free software and then adding even more proprietary software to it?
>What price Windows 11 / 12 now?
For most computers that you can buy from a store, usually $50-$100 USD of the price is the windows tax (whether it comes with windows, or no OS, or another OS).
It seems that the typical "physical license" goes for ~$50 USD now (I remember it being ~$125 USD, but it seems the competition from GNU/Linux has forced them to drop the usual price from seriously ridiculous to just ridiculous for those who are willing to install an OS), but microsoft seems to also offer it for ~$200 USD and sometimes a <$20 USD discounted price - effectively targeting both bigger and smaller suckers and therefore maximizing profit.
Microsoft also targets suckers that aren't big enough of a sucker to pay (but are still a big enough sucker to use it and allow them to profit from showing them ads and/or spying on them and/or reinforcing their network effect) by choosing not to remove KMS activators and the like from github.
As a Mac, Linux and windows user I find your post to be pretty much all about you rather than considering many different use cases.
Having said this you make some valid points for a specific type of user. A home user who is very familiar with a specific application. That is actually relatively common. I’ve had a few neighbours in the past who have asked me how they can upgrade and keep using older software. It’s not the OS they care about.
Would I recommend Linux to grandma who uses her computer to email the grandchildren and send photos?
Only if there was hardly any difference in the way she works on her computer.
But if she’s using Microsoft specific apps it gets difficult, painful in fact.
Then again upgrading to windows 11 will be painful too as Microsoft is constantly screwing with the windows UI between versions.
If she had the money I would tell her to go to pc world and get a new computer and transfer her data. Donate the old one to a charity. If not, I would help and move her over to Linux.
There’s no easy answers.
"ChromeOS Flex works pretty well and it's not limited to laptops. You must use a Google account..."
Fyde OS is essentially ChromeOS Flex but with the ability to not have to use a Google account and use just a local account and also supports Android apps unlike the official Google version.
Although if you don't need the Android app support my personal preference would be to install a full Linux distro such as Mint.
FydeOS is a Chinese fork of ChromiumOS and with proprietary components added which means your data will most likely be exfiltrated to foreign lands (and no, ChromeOS doesn't!)
There's also OpenFyde (FydeOS minus the proprietary stuff) but that's far from stable enough to be used for day to day use.
Just finished upgrading an Asus EEE PC 4G from LMDE 5 Elsie to LMDE 6 Faye, it's using around 1.7GiB of the 3.73GiB ssd, leaving over a gig for music, it plays music wonderfully, it doesn't do video, or even have a picture viewer, other than setting a pc as wallpaper or supersizing the icon view in nemo (on the mate desktop, with mint-artwork held at Elsie mint legacy and icons held from LMDE 4 Debbie).
You could even fit it on the 2G EEE PC, but not leaving much room, you'd need music on external media, via usb or the full size SD Card reader.
Man, I loved the netbook era...it had such promise until Microsoft came along and fucked it in the arse.
We'd have some spectacular kit now if not for Microsoft wading in with their lumbering bloated spastic "starter edition" OS and making Netbooks look worse than they actually were.
There was a 12" EEE PC (I think it was a 1201N Seashell) that I had, NVIDIA ION based with a decent integrated GPU which was the absolute bollocks for the time for a Linux engineer. It was slim, sipped power and ran like stink for less than £200...the downside was it was built by Asus, so wasn't particularly sturdy and was full of glue and adhesive so it was difficult to repair.
By the time I waved it off, it was battered to all hell and hardly any ports worked on it.
As good as Asus are at making interesting kit...they're a bit of a mixed bag when it comes to laptops and portables.
Not sure the 1201N really counts, as it's a 12" quad-thread nvidia-packing 64 bit monster compared to other atom based eee, though the x101ch is a lovely machine, quad thread, 2.5" sss support, sadly no linux driver for graphics so cinnamon, gnome, kde, no-go, but mate or xfce work fine, and they're super light and thin, took one to glastonbury with me one year, camping
My first eee was a black 1000, with 8GB/32GB and linux. Sadly bricked itself on 2GB ram upgrade. It has the coolest stickers so will one day lid swap it with a working one, if I can ever find another black 1000, not that anyone ever has any reason to sell one, as it was peak laptop.
Well it was priced like a netbook, quaked like a netbook and looked like a netbook.
Despite its guts, it was certainly not what I'd call a "laptop".
The x101ch had a GMA500 / Poulsbo chip in it...which was essentially Netbook cancer at the time...it ran like shit, even if you used Windows...because that shit GPU and driver coincided with the release of Vista which created a shit storm so dumb, so piquante, so *chefs kiss* mwah, that it basically killed off the netbook...it was such a retarded time in tech that you can't even blame the conspiracy theories that Microsoft secretly planned it...because it was that dumb.
"It has the coolest stickers so will one day lid swap it with a working one"
Why not scan the lid, upscale it and get a custom vinyl wrap (it's cheaper than you think) made for something decent then frame the OG laptop to hang in your office for the "nostalgia, feels and shit"...that way you get the cool aesthetic on a decent piece of kit and you get to keep the full OG laptop for sentimentality...this way, your decent laptop can look cool and you still have something to look at after you've poured a scotch and start to get misty eyed.
I did something similar with an old motherboard. In my younger years I had Pentium 4 PC that I used as a server for aaaaaages...it was known amongst my friends as "The Warrior" because it just wouldn't die...It was bolted into a cupboard with no ventilation and boiled itself alive for nearly 7 years...and yet, refused to die...it never even crashed and ran a dedicated Quake 3 server, almost entirely uninterrupted (apart from power failures and internet outages). The cupboard was also a bedside table so it got drinks spilled in it a few times, which did nothing to slow it down...so when I moved into my first flat, I cleaned it all up, mounted it to a nice piece of wood, put it in a box frame and hung it on the wall and it's been on various office walls ever since.
Alpine Linux. You can boot it off a handful of cornflakes...it's extremely minimalist though...there is virtually nothing out of the box, you have decide which packages you want to install once it's booted...but you can achieve some staggeringly small deployments with it.
In it's vanilla form (no desktop or anything) it uses less than 60MB of disk space or something wild like that. Might be bigger since I last deployed it, but either way, it's the tiniest Linux you can find that you can customise to your precise requirements...I've got an Alpine VHD on my IODD that I use as an extremely minimalist boot environment for diagnostics etc with a whole shit load of CLI tools installed...it weighs in at about 250-300MB. Because it is so damned small, I don't have to use the original image I created each time, I can just copy it, boot up whatever I'm looking at, install some packages that I might need for a given task, and off I go...then when I'm done either delete the copy or hive it off if it has information in it that I need to get out later.
You also don't always need a desktop environment. For years I carried a Vaio P11Z which had a really shitty GMA500 GPU in it and really crappy mouse input via a "nipple"...it basically couldn't handle running a desktop under Linux because there was no Linux driver for it...so for many years I just used the CLI with TMUX...didn't slow me down any...it's just "different"...if anything it improved my productivity because I had no distractions at all. Mind you, in those days we had things like IRSSI and Weechat with IM plugins to be able to communicate with people...these days Telegram, WhatsApp etc are so "moated" you can't use third party clients etc...which is sad.
Finally...the answer is Lynx (I know, but how did you browse the internet?)...that's I how surfed the web...because you could back then and it was perfectly usable...not sure Lynx would be viable as a browser now with the way web design works these days.
I have a pair of Raspberry Pi 3b+'s floating around, one complete with a touch display case. The only version of Raspberry Pi OS that runs well on them is the 32 bit legacy version based on Debian Bullseye....I didn't realise Alpine had rpi images available. Think it'll be time for a tinker with those (and see just how zippy we can make my Pi 5)
Yes, I ran Alpine on it for a while, until an update borked the wifi for some inexplicable reason. I reinstalled it recently and tried to add an X environment but gave up as it seemed to be more complicated than it used to be (ISTR there used to be a single command/script to install XFCE which doesn't seem to be in the wiki any more).
How? There's virtually nothing in Alpine Linux, it only contains what you put there.
It's not very forgiving, I'll grant you that, but it only really turns into a mess if you made into a mess.
It's kind of designed to be a "base" for a firmware sort of deployment, it's an embedded OS.
In some cases, especially with nontechnical users, that's exactly how it comes to be a mess. Nothing was there, which means that everything that is there now was bolted on by me at some point, and maybe I've forgotten that I did something. That makes it harder to unbolt things that are causing problems because there's no simple uninstall button for a lot of it. For the normal usage of Alpine, embedded and limited-purpose deployments, that's probably fine. For handing it to a user who might want to do all sorts of things, it makes it a courageous option unless, and possibly even if, you're the only person who will ever be asked to administer it for them.
True, but the thread is about keeping old kit running to save money etc, if you want to be able to boot up old hardware and save money, you have to accept that the saving you make in money is probably coming out of your time. Part of the premium on new kit is the convenience of not having to think too much about it because it will be supported, it will have a warranty and will probably "just work" with all current software.
You can't really save money on tech in my opinion...any money you save directly on kit you will be paying elsewhere in time, parts, repairs, support, performance etc etc...the skills you pick up keeping old kit running is the reward in my opinion, not saving money.
A lot of people say time equals money, which is true, but not in the way a lot of people think it is. If you want to save money, you have to expect to give up time. If you want to save time, you have to expect to part with money. If you want more time, pay for a cleaner. If you want more money, do the cleaning yourself. Make sense?
I have Q4OS running in an old (I'm pretty sure the thing can legally buy alcohol in the USA) "el cheapo" netbook with a VIA C7 1GHz and a whooping 512MB of RAM. Admittedly it had A TON of storage space for the time (specs said 40GB, the HDD is actually 60GB).
Used it mostly for remote connections, mostly TMUX and VNC/Remmina, and to read The Register using Lynx (not a good idea now). Now acts as a decoy for one of the cats who fancies herself a technomancer.
From their download page:
The minimal hardware requirements:
Plasma desktop - 1GHz CPU / 1GB RAM / 5GB disk
Trinity desktop - 350MHz CPU / 256MB RAM / 3GB disk
The other day I tried Devuan on an MSI equivalent. I took it to the archives yesterday for note-taking. It wasn't until I got there I discovered I'd not set up the GB keyboard... Just remember to hit @ instead of " and it was fine.
Tomorrow I'm going to need the document camera so that will be the next size up Asus which is the test horse for Devuan next (Excalibur). Heavier than I'd like to be toting around but any Linux laptop is a good workhorse.
Sadly I agree. The solution could have been to force shops to make it clear what you were paying for the OS when you bought your new shiny. Could still be done, but of course it's not in anyone's financial interest except the user. Last 2 laptops I bought (for home) came OS free which is much easier to find these days.
For a business the initial OS cost is almost irrelevant so no pressure there either.
I am really struggling to see why this post got five (and counting) downvotes. Consider this;
"And I've been running various flavours since 1993 and worked on linux servers in several roles.”
So, presumably, the poster is not a hard-core MS fanboy just pushing the company line, so can’t really use that as an excuse.
Now for the vast majority, not all, home users, yes some flavour of Linux will be just fine*, but, surely the real issue here is not home users but SMEs who, I suspect have most of the reported 400 million PCs which will be sent to scrap. And simply moving them all to Linux just isn’t as simple as it might sound.
There have been posts on here claiming ‘if you can use Windows, then <insert desktop of choice here> can be made to look exactly like Windows, so there won't really be a problem. But as has been reiterated on here many times, it’s not the OS, it’s the applications!
Yes, there are functional equivalents for most (other than a few esoteric ones) Windows applications but they are not completely like for like replacements. And you might say, well a little bit of retraining....., fine who does the training?
I have supported a small company with 20 AutoCad users, and they are all experienced (some with a decade's worth) in that software, and it’s oddball foibles. As far as I know, there is no AutoCad for Linux (please correct me if I’m wrong), but there are alternative products. Except they wont work quite the same, some of that experience is now useless, yes they can be trained (again by who and for how much) and while they are getting up to speed, does the company suffer, no CAD work is being done?
Sage Accounts, a spiteful application, but still! Used a lot in the SME space. Is there a direct Linux replacement, and we are talking about financials here so this replacement better be able to use all historic Sage files and not ever make a mistake, and if it does, who gets sued? Again, how long to train up your accounts staff in $NEW_PRODUCT, how much will it cost? Right now you can find staff proficient on Sage and our them to work immediately, can you say the same for $NEW_PRODUCT?
I can’t help but think there is a continent on here who knee-jerk down vote any post that points out that it’s not always as simple as that, irrespective of any cognisant arguments they make in support.
Disclaimer: I run Ubuntu at home and have managed to introduce a couple into work (which is mainly an MS shop), so if you are going to wade in with downvotes, that’s fine, but do it for the right reasons.
* ah but ‘which’ version of Linux, sometimes the conflict makes that between the ‘Peoples’ Front of Judea’ and the ‘Judean People’s Front’ look like a minor disagreement.
"ah but ‘which’ version of Linux"
That's a totally different question to ask a Linux than the typical "which distro is best".
I think regardless of a Linux users personal persuasion, most would just what Ubuntu on a typical users machine and call it a day, just for the simplicity and to keep the free support calls from piling up.
Anyone trying to push anything other than something like Ubuntu is an arsehole and doesn't care about the user.
I pretty much just go with Ubuntu when I'm deploying for pensioners with old laptops or people that want me to set something up to try. It's just painless, non-technical users don't have a hard time "getting used to it" and it rarely breaks these days...it's just "fine".
"Sage Accounts, a spiteful application, but still! Used a lot in the SME space. Is there a direct Linux replacement"
There are many, but Sage is usually forced on you by the accountants, not your finance department...they probably hate it as well...there is a lot of "that's how it's always been done" in the world of accounting.
"As far as I know, there is no AutoCad for Linux"
There are many CAD replacements for Linux, some of them are excellent...but it depends on how your CAD users were trained...some CAD folks are trained specifically on AutoCAD and are not on CAD in general...this is the problem with vendor specific training...you end up with people that know how to do things, but not necessary what they're doing or how it is happening.
https://librecad.org/
https://www.freecad.org/
I've seen CAD folks take to Open Source equivalents like climbing into a warm bath...but others just freak out because it's "not AutoCAD".
Unless desktop Linux becomes really usable - and required software/hardware supports it....
Neitgher corporate nor home users use a OS - they do use applications and devices. And Linux desktop is not still there, especially for the stubbornes of its fanboys - and the lack of investments from big companies. They like Linux **server** because saves them money, they don't like Linux **desktop**. Especially because whatever happens in a browser can be hoarder and used, what happens on desktop applications may not - or may kust available to a competitor.
It's already there my friend.
I think what you mean is "Unless someone does it for me".
Yes, Linux fanboys can be a nuisance...but the vast majority of them do actually have your best interests at heart, it's only a very small minority (quite a loud one) that holds extreme and elitist views on distros etc.
I push Linux quite hard, but I don't care which distro you pick. From a support point of view, it doesn't really matter to me all that much, I've been a distro hopping Linux tart for nearly 30 years...Linux is Linux...there are some truly awful distros out there but as far as people like me are concerned...we don't give a shit if you have an avocado bathroom, we can still put up shelves and fix the leaky pipes for you.
There are loads of companies that use Linux on the desktop. I'm consistently surprised at where I find desktop Linux deployments.
Granted, it is usually at companies that are more tech focused to some degree (but not necessarily their userbase)...the one that crops up a lot at the moment is Manjaro. I see that deployed across companies way more often than I see Ubuntu these days. Although corporate Ubuntu deployments are as old as the hills.
Where you tend to find Linux deployed is companies that are not too big, usually 1000 users or fewer (but more than 100, small businesses mostly use stuff off the shelf and are cloud based these days).
Think the kind of company where the typical desktop user doesn't require anything specialist. Think just email, word processor, browser etc...it's very common in call centres, service desks, retail back office, warehousing etc places where everything is done via webui on a CRM system or something...you might still get the finance department using Windows because of Sage (and because accounts people, for some reason despite being massive nerds, are enormously dim when it comes to tech).
As I say, way more widely used than you might think...it's certainly not a "nerdy niche" anymore...20 years ago, I'd agree with you...but today, not so much...especially in light of ransomware outbreaks etc...which tends to be the primary driver behind companies moving to Linux, they either had a scare (and got cleaned up) and didn't want that risk again or they just want to make sure that the chances of a malware/ransomware outbreak are minimised (it's never zero).
It's not an all or nothing situation either...many companies have been running hybrid setups for years with Mac alongside Windows...it's not uncharted territory...although running Linux alongside Windows is a fucking truckload easier than Mac alongside Windows...I would go as far as to say Mac is more under threat from Linux on a corporate network than Windows right now...a Mac based company is far more likely to switch entirely to Linux than a Windows based company.
We use ChromeOS Flex on a large number of clients, but then we also give a shit about support for shitty Android apps and the excrements of malware that often comes with them for what's supposed to be a desktop OS (and you only have to look at Windows 11's crap Android support which was finally taken behind the barn and shot by MS to see Android doesn't fare much better on other desktop platforms).
If you want Android support then yes, ChromeOS Flex is the wrong OS for you.
Instead, we run the things we need locally under Crostini (which is essentially a Debian LXC) and that includes our software engineer who develop complex software on their Flex machines.
The reality is that ChromeOS Flex is probably the most user-friendly and enterprise-friendly version of Linux that there is.
Or if anyone wants to do an in-place upgrade from 10 to 11, on any hardware, download the W11 ISO, mount it, open an elevated command prompt, change to the drive letter which has been allocated to the ISO, then type the following:
setup.exe /product server
That will start the installer in server mode (seems to be the same installer for client and server), which means that it doesn't do hardware checks.. Igore the mentions of Windows Server and just click through it normally. It will then go ahead and instal lthe upgrade to W11 without any issues. It even works on a last-gen Intel Macbook which is multi-booting using Bootcamp.
It probably won't install the annual feature updates, but the above process can be used to istall those too.
Probably not a good idea with work machines, but for home ones it should be OK.
I can tell you what I haven't got, CoPilot, Recall, OneDrive, Edge, or any of the other shit like Telemetry.
What I do have is 40 years of hardware test software that I use to troubleshoot and repair equipment that I work on.
Now I realize that you're not use to anything in life lasting longer than the loan payment's on it, but in industry there's a lot of legacy equipment out there chugging along doing it's job.
And that's the shit I got!
And, no Linux doesn't work in this scenario.
I think that as regards activation it works the same as any 10-11 upgrade - i.e. if 10 was licensed, so will 11 be.
It ends up running W11, same version as the W10 installation (i.e. W10 Home becomes W11 Home, W10 Pro becomes W11 Pro, etc). It's a standard install - so far as I can see nothing is missing.
If the current OS is WIN7 up with an activated key your good to go, it will self activate.
What you end up with is a very generic Win11 install.
To keep Edge tamed I deleted "TrustedInstaller" and "System" permission to write to the Edge folder, then deleted the contents of the folder. This confuses the update mechanism because the folder all ready exists but it can't do anything with/to the folder.
The Telemetry crap can be turned off in the registry, but Microsoft likes to override that so I use firewall rules to block outgoing comms.
What's your point? Either you are willing and able to change to a different system with associated software, or not.
Are you seriously suggesting that if APP2 is not identical to APP1 (apart from the label) you are unable to use it, even though in practise APP2 will do effectively do all of what you really need it for?
Alternatively, if your needs are so niche that it must be APP1, regardless of OS, and APP1 is only available on Windows, then clearly Windows is your only option (and we're not talking about the UI, we're talking about actual functionality). No point in peering over the fence and complaining.
Speaking as someone who hasn't bothered with Windows, or the apps that run on it, for just under twenty years, all I can say is that I don't miss trying to ride the Windows merry-go-round one little bit. Somehow my varied needs and workflows have adapted just fine, but then I am fortunate I don't have any niche essential software needs that have remained unmet.
You're right, there is no way I can run my business on Linux. I mean, my needs are complex! I need:
A good office suite. (Libre Office)
Graphics (GIMP, Krita, Inkscape, etc...)
Video editing (Kdenlive, Shotcut)
Sound & music editing and composition (Audacity, Aurdor)
Show control of DMX lighting, sound, video (QLC+)
So yeah, there was no way I could ever leave Windows. Unless I got over Baby Duck Syndrome and figured out that the first way I learned to do things wasn't necessarily the best way. Did I have to change my workflow? A few times. Was that problematic? Of course not. It's if anything enabled me to be much more flexible in my software choices and uses.
I'm just waiting for all that cheap ex-business refurb hardware to hit the market. I'm seeing quite a bit already and my home server is due an upgrade. For the majority anything that doesn't run Windows 11 is going to be useless. Current prices are around the £80 mark for an i7 sff desktop.
I've noticed that as well. I'm guessing they are trying to shift stock before it becomes almost useless. I do wonder what will happen when the machine tells the user it's no longer secure within the 12 month warranty. If that was me (if I didn't know) I would be asking for a refund and I think consumer law would be on my side. I'm guessing they will also disable the upgrade nagging or the moment they turn it on Microsoft is going to rat them out by telling them it won't run Windows 11 and they need new hardware.
Probably a good shopping tip -- thanks! Search for "Win10" and check the specs....
As I recall, my daily driver laptop may have come with WinXP, currently Debian, and I have several NUCs of approximately the same vintage.
It'd be neat to get a couple of nicer SFF systems with 9th gen or better CPUs if they could be had on the cheap.
Not just 10.
From 11 on Windows is no longer an OS, it's a service. OSaaS. Fundamentally wrong in every possible way.
If you've been using any kind of PC/Mac over the past 15 years or so you'll be comfortable enough on Linux. Starting with Ubuntu, you don't even have to know what a terminal is. Ubuntu (in all of its flavours) is intended to -and can- be used without even ever seeing a bash terminal, not once. Just like MacOS, which is BSD/Unix with a very comprehensive GUI layer on top.
Back up everything and give your distro of choice a go on your real hardware (including printers, scanners, etc), not on a VM. Be patient. Google (well, UDM14) all the things which are unclear. Give it a couple of days. Some apps will be more familiar than others. But they basically all work the same way.
No subscriptions, not bloatware, no AI, no ads - your computer and its OS are yours again.
Enjoy...
Way back in the 1980s I worked for a bit in a office boasting, among the VT220 dumb terminals, a sole MS-DOS PC that was used to run Lotus 1-2-3. It was branded Victor Sirius.
If anyone in the office ever demanded "are you serious?" the reply was inevitably "no, I'm Victor".
-A.
Will ChromeOS respond to SYS RegQueryValueEx or SYS "FindNextFile" or SYS "GetTextFace" or respond to a file access to "directory\directory\name.extn" or execute the Windows applications already have that I use, or execute the Windows applications I write for other people to use?
"Here's some code I've written, I haven't compiled it because I don't have any tools to compile it, and I haven't tested it because it won't run on my computer, that's $400 please."
"....execute the Windows applications I write for other people to use?
"Here's some code I've written, I haven't compiled it because I don't have any tools to compile it, and I haven't tested it because it won't run on my computer, that's $400 please.""
sounds like you are wanting your customers to remain in the Windows ecosystem solely to maintain you in the lifestyle to which you have become accustomed... are you sure you aren't a M$ employee?
Surely if a customer says "I have ditched Windows, I now have distro x, can your product work?" and your answer is, paraphrasing your text, "No" then the customer has two choices - jump back into bed with you and Microsoft, or walk away and find someone who fills their current need... its entirely up to them which 'costs' them less and which they will opt for.
If many of your customers opt for "walk" what are you going to do? whine that "cutomers don't want to buy any more" whilst going slowly bankrupt, or retool and do things in Linux wihch may, if you aren't too late, win those customers back.
One, possibly smart, tactic would be to look at making your product work with Linux pre-emptively so that when the inevitable happens you are prepared for action. It might be that the problem is already solved in the FOSS space in which case you can help with maintaining the existing tools or fork the project and, because your way of doing things is so much better, people will use your fork and your customers will (might) resume paying you for software support.
"https://support.codeweavers.com/chrome-os"
Actually, the ChromeOS version is the same one as the Linux (.deb) version.
We use Crossover to run a number of industry specific applications on ChromeOS and ChromeOS Flex.
It's also worth mentioning that Codeweavers is quite active in making non-working applications to work, and if the software vendor is willing they are happy to work with them to resolve problems. For software vendors, working with Codeweavers means they can get their software onto other platforms with little effort.
So if there's an application that doesn't work on Crossover then it's worth talking to the vendor and Codeweavers.
That End of 10 site.
Would it be an idea to have a decision tree where a punter citizen reads through a step by step set of questions and arrives at a suggested Linux distribution or alternative? Sort of like that Crucial memory selector page a bit ago.
Early questions would be about what tasks. Later would be about the hardware in question. At each node, carefully crafted information could be supplied. Not 'too much' at each stage.
As other posters have commented, those wedded to specific programs, e.g. MS Office Writer or Adobe Creative whatsit would be pointed at new hardware possibly including Apple. Those with more generic tasks in mind could be funnelled down to Mint or ChromeOS Flex (Neverware as was) or Ubuntu Studio or the Endless OS or whatever.
Might save some frustration and bad vibes and all.
There's logic in it, but it's a lot more work and there are potential problems, for example:
"Do you use rare functions of Microsoft Excel which won't work well in LibreOffice Calc?"
Some users select yes because they use really complicated features of Excel like the formulas and that box that makes graphs.
Some users select no because LibreOffice looks like it's got a lot of features, so it will probably work.
Most users select "I have no idea" because they've never tested anything in LibreOffice.
It's hard to ask sufficient questions to give a good answer without running the risk of confusing users, possibly causing them to just give up. In some respects, it might be more reliable to simply give them some version that's likely to work and letting them see if it can do what they want, and if I had to recommend something for people who have no support and insufficient knowledge to figure it out for themselves, I might propose that method*. The problem is that it's not easy to coach them through installing it in such a way that, if it doesn't do what they want, they can go back to Windows safely, because it's very easy to break dual booting if you don't know what you're doing during installation and that will just mean a lot of people angry about how Linux broke their computer.
* I have helped people by giving them equipment which I created out of discarded computers and parts. I didn't have Windows license keys just sitting around, so they came with Linux, usually just the latest Ubuntu LTS, and I told users I'd help install Windows if they bought or already had a license and asked for that**. Quite a few of them were able to find the applications they needed. I'm not sure I ever found someone who didn't react with some uncertainty when faced with it, but since many of them just needed a web browser and word processor, Ubuntu was often fine. At least, if it wasn't fine, they would have a specific thing they had tried and didn't work which I could review which was more reliable than asking them beforehand and hoping they gave enough information to predict it.
** I wasn't trying to promote Linux there. Whatever the user wanted and I could provide, I did. I did try to avoid spending a lot of time personally teaching them how to use the machine, though, because that is a nearly infinite time sink. I really respect those who have the time to do that more consistently.
"Quite a few of them were able to find the applications they needed. I'm not sure I ever found someone who didn't react with some uncertainty when faced with it, but since many of them just needed a web browser and word processor, Ubuntu was often fine."
Well done for that practical trial. And yes, the special operating system in a strange kind of virtual machine that we call a Web Browser does actually cover everything I need for $Employer and when you add in LibreOffice that's around 85% of what I use a computer for covered.
"Most users select "I have no idea" because they've never tested anything in LibreOffice."
The previous question in the tree would be: Which of the following applications do you use? Tick all that apply.... A) Word-processor B) Spreadsheet and so on for the office apps. Yes it would be a job of work.
The previous question would not help you. You'd already have figured out by that stage that they do use a spreadsheet, and specifically Excel, and you're now trying to figure out what kind of Excel user they are. Are they the person who uses it to do some accounts with simple formulas which anything can handle, or are they the kind of person who really should have been taught to program properly in 2000, but since they weren't, they have self-taught many of the concepts in a massive spreadsheet of macros, formulas, little weird Excel things that take the place of necessary functions, and through a tangled bunch of spaghetti formulas run a complex process? Those people will get annoyed when trying to make sure all of that works in LibreOffice, meaning you might want to guide them to something else, like running Excel in some way rather than trusting LibreOffice to do it. The problem is that it's hard to find a way to express that without confusion.
That's just one example. Very few of the questions you'd want to ask in that tree are going to be easily answered by everyone who visits. If it doesn't work unless someone can answer all of them, then it will get a lot of people leaving early. For example, one of the things I'd ask when trying to shift someone to Linux is how much free disk space they have for a dual boot, assuming they're not willing to lose Windows if it doesn't work out, which few would be and many of those who say they are will be unhappy if you actually do it. If the answer is that they have a small disk or one with limited free space, I would ask how easy it is to install another disk. That's not something the average user knows. I have to look inside to see if there's another bay in their laptop, which there usually isn't, and whether I can replace the disk at all, which I usually can but no guarantees. But if you don't ask it, then they get to the part of the installation where you're hoping to talk them through setting up that dual boot and they have just enough free space to get the distro on, but not enough for applications or data.
"are they the kind of person who really should have been taught to program properly in 2000, but since they weren't, they have self-taught many of the concepts in a massive spreadsheet of macros, formulas, little weird Excel things that take the place of necessary functions, and through a tangled bunch of spaghetti formulas run a complex process?"
Aha, I see you've met our Jonathan who sits in the corner with the two large monitors.
Seriously, such a person would I imagine be examining the feature list for LibreOffice very carefully and perhaps even installing the Windows version to explore the functions before even thinking about a possible migration to Linux.
Thanks for engaging with this idea, and I think I might draft up a straw man model for people to kick down for when the end of 10 website becomes live.
Most users select "I have no idea" because they've never tested anything in LibreOffice.
Given that LibreOffice is cross platform then the site could advise them how to install it on Windows so that they can test it. The same applies to other cross platform applications.
The reality is that pretty much everyone who is or was going to migrate to Linux already has.
The technical arguments, which everyone makes, really don't matter. The reality is that when October comes, the majority of users on Windows 10 will:
1. Switch to Windows 11 if they can
2. If they can't, they'll buy a new Windows 11 PC
3. If they can't buy a new Windows 11 PC, they might buy extended Windows 10 support
4. If they can't buy Windows 10 support, or don't know about it, they'll just keep running Windows 10
5. If they can't buy Windows 10 support, or don't know about it, the will migrate to Linux or Mac OS
What percentage each option will get is still TBD, but I expect that #5 will be the least likely option. Security conscious people who understand why running an insecure Windows OS are more likely to choose options 1, 2, or 3 than 5, and those who don't will just keep running Windows 10. Unless Microsoft starts hitting people with popups, most people won't even know that Windows 10 is expiring. Hell, to be honest, given how most Windows updates are intrusive and disruptive, many will welcome it.
I've been running Mint for over a year, and it does everything I need. But I know that's now what everyone needs. Telling Photoshop users to use Gimp simply isn't going to cut it.
I think that there will definitely some pickup, but honestly, I think the Pewdiepew Youtube video created more interest in Linux than this will.
I suspect that most of us here overestimate how aware of Windows updates most people are. Microsoft's nagging warnings ( to come I'm sure) may well trigger many to update their SOHO PCs. But failing that Windows patches are just a Thing That Happens to the ordinary user.
I thought the placard in the graphic accompanying this article was a clever comment on the recent election of Susan Ley as leader of the Australian Liberal (Tory) parliamentary party after its recent crushing and existentially threatening defeat.
The End is Genuin[e] Ley Nigh.
Turns out the graphic was from a September 2019 demonstration outside the UK parliament before the Tories were bundled out.
Odd coincidence.
Reality of the Win10 EOL is a lot of very basic users will KBO using their unsupported Windows as they always have.
I don't doubt there are Win9x boxes out there that their owner only use Wordpad to compose and print letters etc which haven't connected to the internet since their dialup provider closed shop.
… this is highly unlikely to gain much traction.
The level of knowledge required may seem insignificant for those who have technical skills, but for everyone else it’s significantly difficult.
In terms of support, there just isn’t a network of experts available. It’s dominated by windows or macOS support.
I suspect many windows 10 users will cling on for years after support ends and just put up with the constant nagging that Microsoft will send to their computers.
My neighbour who is in her seventies will probably ask me what she should do. I’ll tell her to buy a new computer and help her donate the old one to a charity that specialises in keeping old computers going.
This is an excellent development and the people behind it are to be applauded. They could really do with this sort of initiative to reach out to charities as well. MS recently downgraded their free charitable offering to the charity my Mrs chairs with an offer of a discount now being on the table. FOSS should really be the norm for charities but they have the same technical deficit and tech fear as the general population.
I have switched my non-W10 compatible desktop to POP which so far is fine, I think it has a very friendly UX that most windows users would find simple to use. IInstall went the usual Linux way, which was, easy until it wasn't, then a right bastard. Took an hour with GPT to get to the bottom of the issue which was that the NVidia drivers had corrupted my user profile. However all working well now.
My son has SFF 2nd hand W10 machie which is also incompatible and he might be nexct for the nix treatment. I might get him an old Mac Mini and linux it, he'll like the shiny I think.
It might be that now really is the time for Linux since people are skint and the idea of a machine wflled with FOSS might tip some into making the effort.
But I think it will take a big expansion of initiatives like this and po-up linux install cafe etc
The site was clearly written by someone who knows that GNU exists, but they have chosen to lie and refer to installing GNU/Linux as "Installing Linux".
Bonus "Linux operating system" oxymoron.
It even puts the price as the first reason to install and doesn't even mention user freedom (just some weaksauce user control point).
Maybe I should help another freedom enjoyer to host a real "end of 10" site.
Yes, you should. You shouldn't expect it to work, because you're great at preaching to the choir (they've probably gotten bored) and this is about finding and convincing people who have never cared about modifying the source and don't care now. However, maybe your experiences trying it will help someone. It would be better than continuing to complain to us who already understand these differences and have decided how much we care about each part of it.
>You shouldn't expect it to work, because you're great at preaching to the choir
I don't expect anything to work, as there is no choir - only me.
>about finding and convincing people who have never cared about modifying the source and don't care now
That is only one of the four essential freedoms; https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html#four-freedoms
People deserve the chance to learn that a free software OS exists that is written to respect the users freedom, rather than such information being hidden from them and only ever learning about some corporate movement about source-availability (sometimes).
Only then are people free to make their own decision if they would like to enjoy freedom or not - you cannot possibly convince someone to enjoy freedom via marketing schemes.
>continuing to complain to us who already understand these differences
It's a public comment available on anyone on the internet.
Many of such sort do not in fact understand these differences - they think Linus did everything from 1991 with a bit of help as they have been misinformed.
Linux Mint Cinnamon on a USB stick is my go-to quick hardware diagnostic. It is easy to use. I have a project in the works to install it on a wonderful laptop (large screen, powerful CPU, 32GB memory, 500GB SSD) to become the tool for me to become more familiar with Linux.
People promoting Linux rarely take into account the grunt work and tedium of finding Linux apps comparable to Windows apps and then converting ones data to be usable with the Linux app. However, as more and more apps become web-based like QuickBooks, data movement becomes less of an issue. I wonder if the web-based Microsoft 365 will run in Chrome on a Mint system? I'll find out.
" I wonder if the web-based Microsoft 365 will run in Chrome on a Mint system?"
I use an employer provided Microsoft 365 'portal' with cut-down versions of MS Office apps (the online ones) and Outlook, and, of course, Teams. I go to a Web site, click 'Staff' and then end up logging into microsoft.com with the employer provided email account and password and recently 2FA.
Works OK in a recent Chromium on Linux distros (Slackware 15 and Debian 12).
I'm not sure if what I'm using is the same as the 'domestic' Microsoft 365 though. You could perhaps try logging into your 'portal' using your Mint live stick?
Icon: Back to mainframes innit
I'm not some kind of Snap "hater", just going on what I have actually experienced. Snap is complete rubbish. I recently moved to Ubuntu and I have found problems with various programs (Firefox, Kdenlive, VLC, Libre Office and others) when they're installed as snaps. With firefox, the snap version ran slower and had various performance problems. Once the snap was removed and the program installed via a deb, they operated normally without the previously experienced problems.
So yes, Linux will be fine for most old computers that are running Windows 7/8/10. There's a distro and a desktop environment out there that will suit anyone. If you're not playing games, you will be able to do everything that you need to, and these days will not need to touch the terminal much for things like installing new programs. If you *are* playing games, Proton will now run most Windows games pretty well. The ones it don't use some kind of kernel-level anti-cheat system which usually means competitive shooters and other online games, and to be honest for the most part you're probably better off not playing those games anyway.
I bought a new Win11 machine, but could not access the firmware to boot from USB until I completed a Win11 registration. When presented with no internet, it simply said go find a place to access the internet, I'll wait AND SO WILL YOU. So, did the registration and immediately put Mint on. Wish I could have used my old machine but the duct tape holding it together finally gave it up.
Is to have vendors of the big software packages (like Photoshop, or Autocad) port their wares over to Linux (it is done with browsers, why not these). Then the "resistance" factor might go away. The "big" problem is that things like "Word" or "Excel" will never be ported. Of course that is a shame, and probably would have been done long ago if Microsoft lost its anti-trust lawsuit back at the turn of the century.
SO: Are you listening Adobe and Autodesk??
This whole thread exemplifies why this year will also not be the year of Linux despite Microsoft's best endeavours to make it so.
The average Windows user, you know, the one who barely knows what an OS is, will have no understanding of the discussion taking place. I can follow some of it despite having run a couple of flavours of Linux (Mint, Kubuntu) and found software missing that I needed.
I too am a grandad, grown up grandkids who wouldn't know where to start and didn't even know there were alternatives to Microsoft and Apple.
Unless businesses strongly adopt Linux, and until Linux distros stop creating a version for every man and his dog, and professional software follows suite, then Linux will remain the install prerogative of nerds even if you have succeeded in getting your grandmother to use it for browsing and emails.
Having been in or around IT from ticker tape days I despair at the mess it has got itself into both from a home user and enterprise point of view.
It will never be the "year of Linux", as that proprietary kernel doesn't operate on its own (a fact that many people don't like to read, as it hurts their feelings).
It was the year of the GNU/Linux desktop in 1995 or so, as you could finally use a recent computer in freedom again (alas that freedom was ripped away with the first proprietary program added to Linux in 1996).
>despite Microsoft's best endeavours to make it so.
All microsoft has endeavored to do so is stop people from escaping to GNU/Linux - of course they love [referring to GNU as] Linux.
To achieve that goal, they released "WSL1", which was in fact GNU *without* Linux, to allow people to run GNU software like GNU bash from windows, while still using windows (although such feature wasn't new - Cygwin and MSYS2 implemented such long before).
Only later was "WSL2" released, which was mostly glorified GNU/Linux VM's and some BusyBox/Linux VM's (like Virtualbox but worse, although auto-configured and auto-installed by default unlike Virtualbox).
>run a couple of flavours of Linux (Mint, Kubuntu)
I would rather call those flavors of the systemd OS (but really they use the same versions of GNU and Linux and systemd, the biggest difference is the default Desktop Environment and what packages are available in the package manager).
>I too am a grandad, grown up grandkids who wouldn't know where to start and didn't even know there were alternatives to Microsoft and Apple.
Very few people even know that GNU was written to be a free software *replacement* to all proprietary OS's - but now you know.
>Unless businesses strongly adopt Linux
The vast majority of businesses already use that kernel with GNU on computers that host their websites and anything else that needs to work - although many don't even realize it.
Many businesses are indeed still conned into using windows on their desktops, even for computers that do nothing but run a web browser.
>until Linux distros stop creating a version for every man and his dog
There are only a handful of Linux distros, for example two are;
https://kernel.org/
https://gnu.org/software/linux-libre
As for GNU[/Linux] distros, most of them are the same and mainly only differ in defaults, default DE and package manager, thus for the most part any will do when it comes to running software for GNU, so it is irrelevant if there are 1000 different distro's.
>professional software follows suite
All professional software is already on GNU, considering that professional software is software you can rely on to *never* randomly or targetedly stop functioning and demand a "license key" or "account login" etc.
There is the professional webservers nginx and lighthttpd and more, professional mailservers exim, notqmail and more, professional SIP software asterisk, GNU osip and more and I can give many more examples, but that's enough.
>will remain the install prerogative of nerds
Yes, computers are for those who at least try to use them.
>even if you have succeeded in getting your grandmother to use it for browsing and emails.
Yes, grandmother deserves freedom and gets Trisquel GNU/Linux-libre.
A roughly eight year old Asus, aiming firmly for the bottom end of the market what with a TF screen and baked in 32GB SSD.
It came with Windows 10. Windows 10 that would insist upon downloading hundreds of megabytes of updates, unpack them into gigabyte of small files, then choke because it has run out of space. There's no option to stage things on removable media, and at shutdown or reboot it will take over the machine to apply the updates and take something like twenty odd minutes to fail to do it. Rinse and repeat. I used Windows 10 for two days and hated it so much...heh, even their own app store fails to work, telling me I must use a supported version of Windows. I think it's because even though the most recent Edge browser was installed, there's an ancient one lurking that seems to get used by preference even when you tell it to use the new one. I went from XP to 10 and the experience has been useful in demonstrating why paying little attention to Windows was a good choice.
On a whim, I downloaded Linux Mint Cinnamon and installed it on a 32GB USB stick. It's a bit quirky (even died once with a panic about killing init - no idea why, it never happened again) and has the temperament of an angry cat, but it looks nice, it's not unfriendly (even if the scroll bars are stupidly small) and it runs far better on my old machine then does Windows. I wanted the machine to run the Arduino IDE because I can't keep using an ancient app on my phone, and my XP box takes a minor eternity to build anything for the ESP32. This machine? Takes about 15-odd minutes to build the default camera server software under Windows. Under Linux? First build takes about four or five minutes. Subsequent builds of the same project take about a minute. I'm happy with that.
Suffice to say, if you don't have a dependency on a particular Windows program, try Linux as an alternative. I'm not a Linux person, I've literally been using it for about a week, but it has impressed me for all the right reasons while Windows impressed me for all the wrong ones.
I have a Windows 10 PC. It has Adobe CS 6 because I once bought a license for it, and it does what I need. I have Steam, and some games. Teams for work reasons, and the Xbox App for my Game Pass Ultimate so I can game with my kid. I have no idea how to move this to a Linux box. I'm not buying a new pc anytime soon. So I guess I just switch off Updates.
I reckon it's still far more user friendly than some of the other suggestions. Kubuntu, seriously?? Even as a techie I find myself baffled by a lot of the KDE interface - windows 98 levels of ridiculously overpopulated right-click menus.
While GNOME is very different to Windows, it's alsp very easy to learn. Either way, Mint is probably the best like-for-like experience to introduce someone switching from Windows.
The best distribution of Linux is... Android.
While the graybeards and the soon-to-be graybeards, talk, talk and then talk even more about the mythical "Year of Linux Desktop" and the "Linux gets you infinite choices, not like Evil Micro$hop", Google just got it right from the beginning.
So smart people and despite that...
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