back to article Microsoft moved the goalposts once. Will Windows 12 bring another shift?

Retired Microsoft engineer Dave Plummer has weighed in on the increasingly heated discussion regarding the impending end of Windows 10. Are Windows 11's hardware requirements all about security or just a sales ploy in disguise? Plummer comes from the days of MS-DOS and Windows NT 4 and had a hand in Windows Activation. He also …

  1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    Providing users rent it by the month I doubt Microsoft will care what Windows 12 runs on. Unless Congress strong-arm Trump there's going to be a weak H/W market in the US for the next few years and that means sales on a new version tied to H/W sales is going to suffer.

    Cynical? Moi?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      TBH, it smells like the mix of customer lock-in and security theatre the company has relied on for decades to flog its defective wares..

      Successfully, I may add, so I don't see that change anytime soon.

      1. NoneSuch Silver badge
        Devil

        They promised me Win 10 was the last Windows OS I'd need.

        I'm holding them to that promise.

        I have everything running on Linux now except for a few games and VR. I'm never updating to 11 or 12.

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. 0laf Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Yep maybe W12 will run in a browser. They'll insist on Edge then give up, since MS can't even make their own stuff work with that.

    3. FIA Silver badge

      Isn't monthly rental what some people want?

      i.e. you pay for Windows with money, like in the old days, rather than your telemetry and personal info, like now.

      This would be assuming your paid for Windows was advertising and spyware free, like in the old days, and not that MS would attempt to double dip like other companies do these days.

      1. Mye

        The only time I really need Windows is for running Office 365 l, dragon speech recognition and aqua speech recognition.

        If you use a browser, you get your Office 365 on many platforms, aqua will work in some browsers, but limited functionality and as for dragon, aqua works better anyway.

        1. FIA Silver badge

          Right, but there are people who like Windows, but don't like all the advertising and telemetary. For those people a subscription may be apropriate.

          Personally, I'm happy with Winodws as an operating system, I'm not interested in moving to linux or a BSD on the desktop, but given the option I would take fewer 'Install Candy Crush' or 'You must have a MS account' popups for a monthly subscription.

          I get that writing and maintaining an OS doesn't come for free, and I'd like an OS that isn't written to cost as it's primary motivation.

          Ideally MS should realise there's an opportunity here and do a 'Home Server' or 'Enthusiast' edition, which would basically be server with the desktop installed by default. The bulk of their money comes from OEM preinstalls, but the good will they would get may be worth the effort. (Plus... they'd be charging for it.. so it shouldn't lose revenue).

          1. CountCadaver Silver badge

            They USED to offer a home server edition but it was killed off for whatever reasons

        2. zeigerpuppy

          The linux speech-to-text tools have gine agead in leaps and bounds recently (with access to modern models like whisper).

          These are as good or better than proprietary options like dragon... And there are plenty of integrations.

          See here for a bit of a dive... https://www.ubuntupit.com/best-open-source-speech-recognition-tools-for-linux/

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Usually when someone askes for a specific product it's because that's what their employer requires from them, not because it's the only thing that will do the job.

          2. HMcG

            > have gine agead

            Not if that was an example, they haven’t…

      2. hedgie

        That sort of thing is why I went back to private trackers from streaming services. I was quite content to pay for streaming, and even deal with the *occasional* rate increase. I'd only sub to two services at any time anyway. But when they now said they were going to inject adverts unless, on top of the ever-increasing sub costs, I'd have to buy another tier? Hoist the Jolly Roger.

      3. CountCadaver Silver badge

        So like cable companies have done for years (phone line connection ain't just for ppv purchases....)

    4. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

      Microsoft knows users are never going to accept a paid subscription with their Windows PC. They're not THAT stupid. Making Windows subscription based will sink the entire Windows franchise within a year. And Microsoft itself not long after.

      No, you'll be able to buy a Windows license in the foreseeable future. Just don't expect Microsoft to support your Windows version for very long.

      1. FIA Silver badge

        Windows is subscription based, that's the problem. They've stopped asking for cash and now ask for ongoing telemetary in return for ongoing free updates.

        All they would have to do is add an extra SKU that you paid for that omitted the telemetary. (They have it, it's Windows Server with the desktop pack installed essentially).

        Thing is, it probably needs a company the size of MS to actually do this and weather the storm, as if we really don't want more and more of our lives being sold for advertising we are all going to have to re-learn that things cost money, even intangable stuff like software costs someones effort and time to produce; and lets be honest... writing good well tested software is even more expensive, as testing and bugfixing cycles take the most time and effort.

        1. navarac Silver badge

          << writing good well tested software >>

          Testing? Really? Since when has Microsoft tested stuff? Not for years!

          1. StudeJeff

            Sure, MS tests, kind of like GM does.

            The first official releases of new versions of the OS (or a new car), are really the final beta versions. Then it's up to the poor suckers... er users who paid good money and expected to be one of the first to get the latest shiny new model to find all the bugs.

      2. CountCadaver Silver badge

        Hasn't stopped or killed Adobe....people hate it but many have it too integrated into their workflows so grit their teeth, pay the fee and at least console themselves with always having access to the latest version ....

      3. Ball boy Silver badge

        I think they're pretty much there already: Office 362 (note to self: check I got that name right!) is subscription but so too are all the cloudy bits from pretty much everyone. It's only a small mindset change to incorporate the client-side OS as part of one big corporate deal. Plus there's arguably an advantage in renting if you're looking to polish the company accounts: operational expenses - 'running costs' if you prefer - look way better on the balance sheet than sinking a pot-load of cash in buying stuff that depreciates.

        Rent to businesses for income, pretty much give it away to education to assure future income (people brought up on a crap diet rarely change their habits) and the home market? Now mobiles do so much, I'd be surprised if the 'home user, full fat desktop' market generates anything like the revenue it did 10-15 years ago.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        If it cost much less than apple hardware and works with a box off the shelf in the cloud, there isn't an alternative for 95% users. Linux is not an option. Make no illusions, this is the future, like it or not. Many companies already work with windows with Citrix on premises in their local cloud.

  2. Mishak Silver badge

    Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 12

    AI

    1. wolfetone Silver badge

      Re: Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 12

      Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 11, or 12 actually.

      Along with even more intrusive spying and advertising.

      1. jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid Silver badge

        Re: Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 12

        "Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 11, or 12 actually."

        Looking back, I can't see any reason to "upgrade" to anything beyond about windows 7. Sure, a new GUI look and feel might be welcome to some. There have been new features built in to Windows that I might have had to use a standalone application for in the past, but that's just using a different app for the same job. Ongoing security updates don't need a whole new OS (and hardware) update. Actually, I'm not 100% sure about that last point - are there security threats that previous versions of Windows absolutely couldn't be adapted to respond to?

        For me, a home and work user (I'm not a network admin), Windows has had nothing usefully new (worth actually upgrading for) for several versions now.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 12

          You might not but Microsoft does: money.

          1. jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid Silver badge

            Re: Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 12

            Oh of course, and that's the business challenge that Microsoft has with a product that never wears out like a car or a pencil and thus never needs replacing (although we've all experienced the typical windows deterioration over time that mimics wearing out). They made the shift ages ago when Office started to move from a lifetime one off purchase to a rental model and now that's coming to the OS as well. I'm old fashioned enough to prefer ownership over rental so Microsoft have already pushed me away as a customer.

            1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

              Re: Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 12

              To some extent it's the stock market's fault. They can't be satisfied with a nice little earner, they demand growth. The nice little earner for S/W ought to be get the product complete, shake out the bugs. Don't faff with it to add more so the cost of development can be cut to minimal maintenance and just take the licence fees from new H/W.

              But, no. The user base has to be forced to fork out more and more. If that doesn't happen the share price falls below its original unwarranted level and bonuses, tied to further unreasonable growth, are missed and the sharks move in.

              1. rg287 Silver badge

                Re: Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 12

                To some extent it's the stock market's fault. They can't be satisfied with a nice little earner, they demand growth.

                This is basically it. And it's the one thing that everyone seems to be right about - the current assumptions underlying our economic model are no longer true. We just diverge on whether we go down the tech-bro corporatocracy and sell the world to the billionaires in some sort of anarcho-libertarian act of onanism, or go the other way and recognise that a profitable business is a profitable business. You don't need to go out of your way to pad your figures to please the speculators at the stock market if you're making money and happily paying your staff and taxes.

                In the consumer tech space, most products are way past "good enough", and consequently many industries are on a replacement cycle, not a growth cycle (Reg passim: "The channel stands corrected: Hardware is a refresh cycle business now). My mum is still rocking her Macbook from 2012 (with RAM/SSD updates). It's fine for normal browsing/productivity.

                My Dad adheres to the business module from his 1970s engineering course where "you must have growth". And back then it was somewhat true - in a rapidly growing marketplace, a failure to grow meant falling behind. But "growth" then meant improving tooling, improving your assembly lines. Achieving more output per worker hour. Investing (what a word!) in robotic welders and CNC toolstations. But in a static market where population growth has tailed off and the speed of welding robots is limited by the rate of heat flux (i.e. you're up against physics of metallurgy) rather than better controllers or more precise stepper motors. What businesses call "growth" now, economists call "scaling" - opening a second line with additional robots.

                And in the software world... "growth" means growth in profits, not economic output.

                Take Adobe. Adobe got to the point where basically everyone who wanted Creative Suite had it. People were skipping versions, going from CS3/4 to CS6 or whatnot. As their ideas for new features tailed, their MBAs scratched their heads and moved the whole thing to a subscription model, marketed as a lower barrier to entry and you "got the latest features". Which frankly were pretty limited until the last couple of years when inferencing/AI tools like content-aware fill and selections have been legitimate improvements.

                Adobe have seen great growth in profits but not in product development or productivity. Indeed, many of their products have become less stable - to the point of alienating their own ambassadors.

                The same could be said of Microsoft. My Dad couldn't believe that he couldn't just buy a copy of Office any more. Why sell you a copy of Office for £150 to install on your laptop and use for 5 years when they can extract £500 in subscriptions over the same period? Of course there's a cost in building the online version and providing you with some storage that you don't want... but not that much.

                The fact is, Microsoft Office did basically everything you needed it to do in about 2008. Most "improvements" since then have been fudging about with UI for no particular benefit. Some people prefer it, but it doesn't actually work any better than it did (I'm sure there are some specialist functions in Excel that a handful of users value, but for the 99th percentile we're using it for the same thing we did in 2010 on a dual-core i3 with 4GB of RAM. I say "we". I use Libreoffice).

                The world is paying more for less, and people are now waking up to the fact that this smokescreen of GDP growth doesn't equate to improvements in employment or business productivity (and that GDP is an increasingly meaningless measure of a nation's economic output). Whereas in China, GDP growth does equate to them actually making more stuff and developing manufacturing/tooling/development expertise.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 12

                  But you can still buy a copy of office to install on your laptop to use for X years...

                  https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/p/office-home-2024/cfq7ttc0pqvj

                  1. bombastic bob Silver badge
                    Devil

                    Re: Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 12

                    I just use open office or libre office, even on windows. works JUST fine!

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 12

                      I use LO because it works on everything so I have it on MacOS, Linux and the Win 11 VM I use for work. And collabra on an iPad when I travel.

                  2. rg287 Silver badge

                    Re: Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 12

                    But you can still buy a copy of office to install on your laptop to use for X years...

                    I stand corrected. Although I would state that my comment was not idly made - I went specifically looking for it yesterday to check that I was correct... And I didn't find it. It's just taken me 5 minutes trying to work out how to organically browse to the page you've linked and my god is it a case of "on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.".

                    I'd bet folding money there are millions of people on a 365 subscription who wanted a one-time license but simply didn't find it. And that is entirely intentional on Microsoft's part.

                2. 0laf Silver badge

                  Re: Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 12

                  The only point I'd argue with in your summation is that I'd suggest MS Office did pretty much everything you needed in 1997 not 2008

                  1. atheist

                    Re: Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 12

                    I'd go earlier, as it was Office 97 that started hiding features behind chevrons, for instance mail merge, likely objective being to reduce support calls.

                    1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

                      Re: Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 12

                      O95 had a lot of annoying bugs though. I was developing Office compatible software (OLE stuff) around that time and 2003 was definitely the sweet spot.

                3. Terry 6 Silver badge

                  Re: Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 12

                  Add in investor depredation. Any company making merely good profits is ripe for investment speculators to try to ake it over with the promise of massively increased share value. Once a company accepts the foot of the "private equity" companies through the door it is doomed to a future of permanent impossible demands for increased share value.

                4. navarac Silver badge

                  Re: Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 12

                  << Adobe got to the point where basically everyone who wanted Creative Suite had it. >>

                  The worst Adobe scam of all? Charging a subscription cancellation fee. AKA Extortion with menaces!

                5. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 12

                  That's exactly in line what universities teach, specially in MBA classes,: monetize everything

              2. Benegesserict Cumbersomberbatch Silver badge

                Re: Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 12

                If I turn my computer on and there's no OS, nothing happens, so there's effectively no computer.

                From a corporate governance point of view, maybe it's time to realise that OSes are natural monopolies and they should be treated the way that phone services were in the US before the 1980s - monolithic and de facto not-for-profits.

                Spin off the OS division into it's own wholly owned enclave that's not under any influence of the authors of Office, Copilot, development suite, any of the profit centres. Micros~1's reward for decades of work is tighter integration with the OS through familiarity and closer communication. But the makers of the OS itself concentrate on and only on efficiency and security at one thing - the OS. And consumers get that for free.

              3. CountCadaver Silver badge

                Re: Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 12

                Ahhh "growth" Keir Starmerbots version of the Maybot Mantra "Strong and stable"

                Same bird brained "gurus" behind that logic....

            2. CountCadaver Silver badge

              Re: Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 12

              Apparently physical media sales are ticking upwards....even younger folks are getting sick of the MBA pushed streaming bullshit games, when what they want is stuff on their service of choice and not spread across 101 places and only for so long (I'm still spitting about Disney erasing the second series of single drunk female for a tax write off after seeing Zaslav of warner discovery using it and getting away with it)

        2. frankvw Bronze badge
          Holmes

          Re: Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 12

          "...are there security threats that previous versions of Windows absolutely couldn't be adapted to respond to?"

          Well, let me put it this way: Windows 11 want your hardware to have a TPM "for enhanced security" and is still subject to a whole parade of vulnerabilities every month. What does that tell you?

      2. tracker1

        Re: Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 12

        I was using insiders releases of Windows for years... It was when they started testing web search results and ads in the start menu search that I switched to Linux. When they started talking about taking screenshots of desktop activity every two seconds that my wife switched.

        It comes down to Microsoft adding functionality that has no place in an operating system. They'll continue to lose more and other options will continue to improve. Most people not playing games with invasive anti cheat or locked into Adobe products are fine on Linux.

        1. navarac Silver badge

          Re: Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 12

          << I was using insiders releases of Windows for years... >>

          At first I thought I was reading something I'd written!! Insider's Builds under Gabe Aul were great. Then Donna S ( a fashionista!) took over. A/B Testing was a camels back straw, a lot of builds had nothing in them ( A/B.../Z testing). Feedback was ignored and it all got a sob story. Windows 10 was my last Windows ever, Windows 11 has been banned and with the pathetic state of 24H2; I'm glad. 2020 saw Microsoft Windows given the "diskpart" treatment and I'm so thankful when I read the articles on this site. Windows 12 will be more of the same, and with luck, Windows 13 (they'll give that title a miss I'm sure) will be its total demise.

          Microsoft has lost the plot. Windows is no longer an OS; it is an all-in-one Microshaft advertising, money grabbing, mega-app, built by interns and not fit for purpose anymore.

          To repeat the comment above by "tracker1": Most people not playing games with invasive anti cheat or locked into Adobe products are fine on Linux.

          1. Mage Silver badge
            Linux

            Re: Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 12

            I ran Win 7 for 2 months. I have two systems with Win 10 I don't use. Using Linux 100% instead of Windows since December 2016. I'd occasionally run a VM with a clone of my 2002 Laptop's XP on a VM. As an aside, why does Vbox add all those Bluetooth devices wasting my serial ports? I know NT can have 256, but stupid programmers did SW that only supported 4 or 8.

            MS lost the plot during Vista development (about 2003?) and Win7 should have been free to Vista users.

        2. 0laf Silver badge

          Re: Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 12

          Unfortunately no they won't. Your average punter doesn't really care about MS data grab or AI being forced into their machines. They migh care if it gets slow or if it gets increasingly hard to use.

          But MS has already lost a large chunk of home users to Android and Apple as most punter just use tablets or their phones for many tasks.

          MS only cares about Enterprise these days but only cares enough to gouge them and not enough to make product that actually works for their customers

    2. frankvw Bronze badge

      Re: Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 12

      "AI"

      True, but I have an even better one: Windows 11 offered nothing that we wanted but Windows 10 didn't have, and Windows 12 will offer nothing that we want and Windows 11 doesn't have.

    3. Groo The Wanderer - A Canuck

      Re: Reasons not to upgrade to Windows 12

      1. Artificial Ignorance screwing things up

      2. "recall" being used to scrape and transmit screenshots at cop's requests using your mandatory "always on" connection.

      3. Linux is free.

      4. Linux doesn't require hardware upgrades.

      5. Only once have I seen a Linux environment hacked.

      6. Steam with Proton Experimental enabled will run over 90% of my windows games just fine, though they take longer to start up.

      7. Who the hell wants to give the Nazi States of America a dime while the Pumpkin Fuhrer is messing with the global economy and security to stroke his own insane ego?

  3. Caver_Dave Silver badge
    Unhappy

    Requirements

    Yes, the requirements are getting tighter. My new PC, when I was specifying it, conformed to the pre-release requirements of Windows 11 - only to find that on release, my processor was not supported. I have moved to Linux.

    My youngest, although hesitant, has been moved to Linux.

    My wife is much more reluctant, but her laptop is beginning to crawl along, and so she is becoming more amenable.

    Microshite Sales and Marketing are driving more and more people to alternatives, either out of choice to avoid the enshitification, or out of need as they are not going to buy a new PC.

    1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

      Re: moved to Linux

      One big step for you, one small step away from MS.

      W12 could very well be the tipping point for a lot of users. More perfectly capable PC's destined for landfill/recycling if the WinTel cartel is anything to go by. Just repurpose it and run Linux.

      1. BobChip
        Linux

        Re: moved to Linux

        One big step?

        No. Not really. In one sense, only about 30 minutes to go double boot - or for a complete install. In another sense, a couple of days or so to adapt to the new, FAST, secure environment.

        I was FORCED to take this step when Windows 8 deprecated hundreds of pounds worth of expensive peripherals which had worked perfectly under Windows 7, but which to my considerable surprise still worked beautifully under Ubuntu. No further explanation or justification needed. MS response had been "just go out and buy all new kit compatible with Win 8 (and stop being a nuisance..)"

        I continue to watch MS's "progress" with the same fascination as watching a disaster movie. You know what is coming....... but not quite when.

    2. hedgie

      Re: Requirements

      The main thing keeping on Windoze these days really is inertia and people having the Stockholm Syndrome of being "used to it", or "it's what I use at work". With Steamplay/Proton, Linux is more than viable for most gamers, and doesn't require a new purchase to move away from Windows. A new Mac Mini is a quite reasonable price for more power than the average user needs, and can run nearly all the same commercial software Windows does. And as another poster mentioned, for many home users, a tablet, phone, or Chromebook is all they need, at least for most things.

      If people weren't so resistant to change overall, let alone with things they don't know well (computers), their eroding monopoly would have collapsed almost entirely by now. All this crap they're doing will bit by bit chip away at it until they either completely change the path they're on, or find themselves just another player in the industry.

      1. blcollier

        Re: Requirements

        > With Steamplay/Proton, Linux is more than viable for most gamers, and doesn't require a new purchase to move away from Windows.

        In general you’re not wrong, but there’s definitely some nuance there.

        There are still issues with anti-cheat systems running under translation/compatibility layers, where you run the risk of being banned. It’s all well and good to say “we’ll just don’t buy those games then”, but people have already invested time and money into these games (sometimes considerable amounts), and that isn’t something you can throw away lightly.

        Then there’s performance. In some cases this is actually better under Proton, but it can very much be lacking when it comes to support for more modern features like ray tracing or upscaling technologies. And, again, as much as RT might be derided as useless frippery, it’s become a lot more prevalent- some games now even *require* hardware RT acceleration. While frame interpolation is still dubious in my view, some of the upscaling technologies are very good indeed.

        And finally we have the elephant in the room, drivers… Intel & AMD are definitely better in this regard, but Nvidia still has a hell of a long way to go, even with their proprietary drivers. Simply avoiding Nvidia when embarking on your Linux gaming voyage isn’t an option: like it or not, and for better or worse*, they are the dominant GPU manufacturer for PC gaming.

        I don’t want to sound like I’m being overly negative, so I will somewhat temper these criticisms/caveats by saying that the progress made in the last 5 years is *incredibly* impressive. For the most part, it does “just work”.

        *Worse. It is definitely worse.

        1. hedgie

          Re: Requirements

          You're absolutely right, and I was careful to hedge my statement a bit with "most", and I do remember fighting with the Nvidia blob on a rolling release before, thankful that SUSE has a solid snapshot utility for rollbacks when the blob wouldn't even let X load. There are always use cases where using something other than Windows requires too many compromises. I mean, I haven't haven't ditched proprietary OSes (primary machine is a Mac[1]), myself. All I was trying to do is point out that more and more (ie, Linux being a viable gaming platform, Macs for a reasonable price, Chromebooks or tablets for people who don't need much, etc), there's less and less of a reason to remain tied to Windows. If it wasn't preinstalled on major computer brands, it'd be dying a much quicker death. As is, all these moves will push ever increasing numbers of people to find an alternative.

          [1] Which I very much use because Linux doesn't run some things I need and I hate Windows. And it isn't the most obnoxious proprietary UNIX I've dealt with,[2] so there's that.

          [2] Solaris was quite painful to deal with.

          1. blcollier

            Re: Requirements

            Late replies, we love ‘em!

            And I don’t disagree with your overall sentiment: the more people use it the better. I do, however, have a great deal of skepticism as to whether it can ever actually be achieved. Maybe this is just early onset “Grumpy-Greybeard-itis”, but I can’t help but think that if “voting with one’s wallet” was sufficient to move the market then we’d have been using Linux by default a decade ago.

            It’s sad that we need to rely on one unfathomably wealthy corporate entity to “save” us from another unfathomably wealthy corporate entity, but we really do need Valve pushing back against Windows. In the PC space, there’s no one else who has sufficient clout in the market. Competition is already dwindling rapidly: Nvidia utterly dominate in GPUs, AMD just aren’t competing in budget price brackets, and despite their efforts Intel’s GPUs aren’t making much headway; Intel are being toppled in the consumer space, but AMD are starting to pull the same kind of monopolistic tricks that Intel did when they were on top.

            Bleh, it’s too much of a sunny Friday to be so depressed about this. Who’s driving us back from the pub then?

  4. Pen-y-gors

    I still hate Micro$oft

    Windows is a sad fact of life for most people.

    But I really hate the restrictions on Win 11 upgrade - TPM makes sense, and realistically recommending 1GHz and 2 cores, fine. You want a slow pc, it's your choice. I have an 8-year old laptop, upgraded to 32GB, and has a 2.3GHz 4-core processor, TPM etc. But can't move to Win 11 because it's the wrong sort of i5 CPU. Can't change it because it's soldered in. <swearword> ridiculous.

    I have my doubts about some of the workarounds - hacking registry etc.

    I think we call their bluff. Stay on Win 10, with lots of layers of security and anti-nasties. See whether suddenly M$ go back to issuing security patches for 10 when the fallout from 'millions of people having their MS Windows computer hacked' headlines start appearing. "17 die when NHS hospital Windows network hacked" - even if they relax the Win 11 conditions there's a lot of people won't want to/bother to/know how to upgrade.

    And Win 12 with AI? <rofl>

    1. williamyf Bronze badge

      Re: I still hate Micro$oft

      Your use case is PRECISE validation of a point I made a long while ago.

      It was all about HVCI, IIRC introduced in 4th gen intel, and MBEC (to accelerate HVCI) introduced in 7th gen intel. Once Microsoft decided on that, pretty much all compliant procesors (7th gen onwards) have PTT or fTPM included, so the TPM was a non-issue.

      ¿Why they went for 8th gen instead of 7th gen? Probably to simplify the support matrix, as 7th gen processors can go into 6th gen mobos....

      The rest was just clean-up, like moving us from SEE2 (win10) to SSE 4(win11) (POPCNT was released concurrently with SEE 4, but is not part of it, it is its own separate requirement), from DX9c (Win10) to DX12 FL_12.0 (Win11 ) from WDDM 1 (Win10) to WDDM 2(Win11) and from Vista desktop drivers drivers to Win11 universal desktop drivers

      So, while the media makes much fuss about the TPM, is only MBEC what really counts.

      1. IGotOut Silver badge
        Happy

        Re: I still hate Micro$oft

        ^ ^ ^ ^ °

        The above post is why some techies are not allowed to talk to the general public.

      2. Richard Cranium

        Re: I still hate Micro$oft

        I'm tempted to ask an AI assistant to translate this into English - but I can't be arsed.

        1. mahan

          Re: I still hate Micro$oft

          >I'm tempted to ask an AI assistant to translate this into English - but I can't be arsed.

          Good call!

          My plan is to join some physician forum and then make remarks about their posts being filled with this "medical mumbo jumbo" /j

          1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

            Re: I still hate Micro$oft

            You have a point, but I get a similar feeling when someone who runs fleets of VMs, or builds data centres for a living, falls into their jargon comfort zone. We're all nerds here, but that doesn't mean we're all the same species of nerd. In fact, a good number aren't IT nerds at all and are very helpful in making stories about space, or biotech, or quantum gizmology, more accessible to the rest of us.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I still hate Micro$oft

      17 die when NHS hospital Windows network hacked

      When did the NHS get off Win 7 ? (or is it still to come?)

      1. snee

        Re: I still hate Micro$oft

        NHS still have faxes (I think?) so probably still on Windows 98, or XP at a push...

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I still hate Micro$oft

      I was in the same boat - instead I installed Linux, VirtualBox on top - and then Win10 (had a purchased Retail license). THEN I upgraded to Win11. All good.

    4. Yorick

      Re: I still hate Micro$oft

      It is quite annoying. For my own laptop, it’s Ubuntu, because that’s comfortable and works well for a desktop, for me.

      For my mum, it’s Win11 with Rufus. Rufus abstracts all the “registry hacks”.

      She doesn’t have the money for a new laptop; is a little freaked by the “no more security updates” nag screens; and her apps are all Windows-only and I don’t want to force her into an emulation layer on Linux.

      It’s a one-time change Soon(tm), to 24H2 or 25H2 depending when; and then maybe every year or other year or so to keep her on the 2XH2 train.

      By the time Win11 is EOL, I trust we can get her a new laptop.

    5. LenG

      Re: I still hate Micro$oft

      So do I, but currently I am too tied up with other things to move to linux ATM. I know it is not particularly difficult but some eye problems limit my screen time so non-essential maintenance is on hold.

      As for the TPM restriction on Win 11, I think it is a wonderful idea. I disabled it on my system so that M$ can't sneakily upgrade me to Win11

  5. ptribble

    Upgrade to open source

    Simply adds more ammunition for campaigns like End of 10

    https://endof10.org/

    1. b0llchit Silver badge
      Black Helicopters

      Re: Upgrade to open source

      Using Open Source will soon be outlawed by presidential decree. There are foreign agents working on Open Source and can therefore not be used by Loyal PatriotsTM. Only local produce from convicted monopolists are allowed because they pass the Loyal PatriotsTM test and have committed themselves to let other Loyal PatriotsTM access any and all data to sniff out the not so Loyal PatriotsTM belonging to the 7th generation illegal immigrants that need a one-way ticket to Gitmo.

      Loyal PatriotsTM don't let Loyal PatriotsTM use Open Source.

      /s

      1. Terry 6 Silver badge
        Black Helicopters

        Re: Upgrade to open source

        However the USA's economic significance is also going to wane considerably.

        We'll have to see what Beijing wants us to run.

        1. m4r35n357 Silver badge

          Re: Upgrade to open source

          Or Russia, so prolly ReactOS

          1. Lon24
            Thumb Up

            Re: Upgrade to open source

            Be positive. Outlawing Linux in the US will not effect almost all PC users directly. But the big US based datafarms will have to dump Linux for Windows Server. Oh and IBM's Red Hat business will fail. The hosters will be destroyed by the extra cost and disruption and businesses paying for US based cloud will also take a massive hit.

            Giving the rest of the less censorious world a massive IT competitive advantage. Too good for even the current administration to consider it for more than 3 nanoseconds. Or am I underestimating them ;-)

            1. b0llchit Silver badge
              Alert

              Re: Upgrade to open source

              Too good for even the current administration to consider it for more than 3 nanoseconds. Or am I underestimating them ;-)

              You are underestimating their competence in making the wrong decisions for everybody except their personal and private wealth.

      2. The Man Who Fell To Earth Silver badge
        FAIL

        Loyal Patriots

        Can't afford new PC's anyway.

        58 crypto wallets have made millions on Trump’s meme coin. 764,000 Loyal Patriots TM have lost money on the grift, data shows

        https://www.tronweekly.com/trump-meme-coin-hits-14b-then-crashes-leaving/

      3. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

        Tariffs galore

        on almost everything but Herr Trumpf will struggle to put 100% (or more) tariffs on software moved over the internet unless he cuts the USA off from the rest of the world.

        Doing that will cause huge ptroblems for people and business but it will adapt to avoid the USA.

      4. Benegesserict Cumbersomberbatch Silver badge

        In breaking news

        White House announces 10000% tariff on FOSS...

  6. Mike_R
    Linux

    How to opt out of the enhancements

    see icon -->

    1. zimzam
      Thumb Up

      Re: How to opt out of the enhancements

      That's actually been my favourite thing since switching. If a distro adds a thing you don't like, just delete that package and tell your package manager not to download it again. If another distro adds something you want, just install it from their repo or git.

      1. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

        Re: How to opt out of the enhancements

        Tried removing systemd from Fedora, RHEL or Debian recently?

        Ask the Devuan devs. how easy it is.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: How to opt out of the enhancements

          They appear to find it perfectly feasible. I'm following the new version, Excalibur, on a second laptop. Stacks of new stuff still coming in (the Debian soft freeze only held it back for a few days) and very little of it Devuan specific.

  7. elsergiovolador Silver badge

    Final

    Didn't Microsoft say a while back that Windows 10 is the final version and there will be no more?

    If so, can we just ignore 11 and 12?

    1. nijam Silver badge

      Re: Final

      > ... Windows 10 is the final version and there will be no more.

      Windows 11 is their way of implementing the "there will be no more" part. Regrettably not likely to be a successful implementation, but then we don't expect successful implementations from MS.

    2. elaar

      Re: Final

      A bit like how "you'll never need to reboot after updates in the next Windows version", and yet I'm prompted to reboot almost every time I go to use my Win11 home PC.

    3. williamyf Bronze badge

      Re: Final

      Windows 10 was the last version, as Windows 11 was a direct fork of the Win10 codebase, and not a rehash of new and old pieces.

      HW requirements were virtualy the same between "vista capable" machines and Win10 (I actually had/have Win10 running on a toshiba A120-s386)... that was becoming untenable for 2021, let alone 2032 wen Win10 support thruly ends.

      ¿How do you communicate such a big change of minimum specs?

      Originally microsoft wanted to call the OS with the higher specs "Win10 X". But that is not clear enough when non-reg readers (say, spmart people subscribed to "the lancet") see a message saying "your Win10 machine can not be upgraded to Win10 X", so, some bright spark in microsoft marketing dept came up with the Windows 11n ame to make sure people undestood that the new OS had radically diferent minimum specs. Better that mess than another "Vista Capable" type mess.

    4. David Hicklin Silver badge

      Re: Final

      Well its the last version here.....

    5. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

      Re: Final

      It is the final version as far as I'm concerned. The final version before Linux Mint takes over!

  8. KittenHuffer Silver badge

    The dark overlord speaks ....

    "I Am Altering the Deal, Pray I Don't Alter It Any Further." - Vader

    1. Pirate Peter

      Re: The dark overlord speaks ....

      I can't work out if your quoting Micro$oft or trump there :) :)

  9. captain veg Silver badge

    the problem

    The problem certainly is not the hardware "requirements" for Win11, no matter how specious.

    The problem is ending support for Win10 and offering no other route out, essentially bricking many people's devices. The fact that Microsoft told us that this would never happen as part of their drive to get everyone off Win7 just rubs the salt in.

    -A.

    1. ChrisC Silver badge

      Re: the problem

      Bricking implies devices become useless, so unless MS are going to be even more user-hostile than they've ever been, and push out one final W10 update which genuinely does render the PC useless, then ending support for W10 is going to be no more of an issue than it was when MS withdrew support for earlier versions.

      Anyone who *needs* to be using a current OS with active security update support will have to move on, upgrading their hardware if required, but for those users without such constraints, they'll still be able to happily (for some Windows-specific definition of the word "happily", at least) continue using W10 until the PC itself wears out, just as there remain quite a few of us continuing to quite happily (that word again...) run W7, XP etc. systems without any real issues.

      1. DJV Silver badge

        Re: Bricking implies devices become useless

        Yep, pretty much Microsoft's aim with the constant enshitification of Windows.

    2. williamyf Bronze badge

      Re: the problem

      «The problem is ending support for Win10 and offering no other route out»

      Route # 1: ESU until 2026

      Router # 2: Winserver 2022 with desktop experience until ~2033

      Route #3 (only for big clients): ESU until 2028

      Route # 4 (only for big clients): Win10 Enterpside IoT until ~2032

      A handfull of routes. Mine is server 2022, Choose your route. You are welcome.

      Note: Route # 5 is 0patch, but I'd not recomend it, as they can not patch kernel space. only user space.

      1. captain veg Silver badge

        Re: the problem

        I chose my words quite carefully.

        The "many people" I had in mind were those who bought a PC with Windows pre-installed, which is just about all of them, and had a reasonable expectation that it would continue working as long as the PC did.

        I'm not talking about the likes of you and me. I got off the Windows treadmill many years ago.

        -A.

        1. williamyf Bronze badge

          Re: the problem

          Route # 1 was loudly communicaded bymicrosoft tonon-techies.

          I agree 107% with youthatthe other routes are known pretty much to techies like us and our non-techie circle

        2. ChrisC Silver badge

          Re: the problem

          And those reasonable expectations will be met - they aren't going to wake up on the day after W10 support ends and discover their PC is now unuseable - it'll still boot up the same as it did the day before, it'll still run all their software the same, and other than the lack of ongoing updates (which some might even see as a significant benefit...), their PC won't be any less useable over the remainder of its physical lifespan than it's been up til now.

          And bear in mind that W11 was released getting on for 4 years ago now, so even those people who were amongst the last to buy a PC with W10 preinstalled (at least in the general consumer marketplace you seem to be talking about, as opposed to the business/enthusiast sectors where buyers might have continued to adopt 10 for some time beyond 11's introduction) will still have had a pretty decent amount of fully supported lifespan out of their systems, and will now be at the point where if their PCs continue to remain useable for another couple of years, they'll have surpassed the point at which any reasonable consumer-focussed legal system would offer them any sort of protection against design defects, build quality issues etc.

          I feel somewhat weird supporting MS here, given how often I've been only too happy to criticise them over the years, but it really does feel like you're making a mountain out of a molehill here, and implying that PCs across the world literally will stop working as soon as MS pull the plug on W10 support, which simply isn't the case.

          1. captain veg Silver badge

            Re: Reasonable expectations

            I would imagine that most consumers would reasonably expect that the consumer-electronics device they'd bought would work correctly during its lifetime, and that if it did not then the manufacturer would fix it at their expense. Security fixes only arise because of defects in the product. Microsoft cannot claim that the only resolution is to "upgrade" (even if for free) to a new version which won't actually install.

            -A.

          2. Ken Hagan Gold badge

            Re: the problem

            Everything will still work the day after, yes. However, every patch Tuesday is (for the bad guys) basically a pointer to vulnerabilities in the patched code. Given the Win10 inheritance of Win11, that means MS will be publishing Win10 attack vectors every month. If that Win10 box of yours is used for internet access, it gets more and more vulnerable as time goes on.

            I'm not an alarmist by nature, but I do believe that's a fair description of the situation and I think it needs to be more widely appreciated by the general population.

    3. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

      Re: the problem

      That's nonsense of course. Nothing will stop you running Windows 10 after October 14th 2025. And all your applications will keep working as well, so there's no immediate need to upgrade to Windows 12 or buy a new computer.

      It's just after so many decades of security scares people have become accustomed to updating their operating system and suspect that if it isn't updated it will become insecure almost immediately. That's an obvious falsehood but try removing that from people's ingrained instincts is arduous and fraught with difficulty.

      1. captain veg Silver badge

        Re: Security scares

        > after so many decades of security scares people have become accustomed to updating their operating system

        Maybe so, but Windows 10 rams the updates up your fundament whether you want them or not. Maybe that conditions people's expectations.

        -A.

      2. GNU Enjoyer
        Angel

        Re: the problem

        Windows uses an inherently insecure design - updates or no updates, if anyone who is skilled wants to crack a windows computer, they'll be able to do it.

        A few months or years after no updates, script kiddies will begin to be able to exploit windows 10 with just Metasploit, just like how they can currently do so to 7, Vista and XP - although that won't be a problem if they can't connect to such computers (i.e. the computer is behind a firewall and the user doesn't go and execute whatever malware JavaScript random websites throw at them via the web of arbitrary malware execution (a "modern" web browser)).

        >Nothing will stop you running Windows 10 after October 14th 2025. And all your applications will keep working as well

        If those were your applications, they would keep working indefinitely, alas, a lot of proprietary software kills itself eventually and requires a reinstall (the same is true of windows 10 itself once enough registry cruft etc builds up - although it seems it can be re-installed in place), which eventually may become impossible if the installer programs use digital handcuffs that have stopped working.

  10. NewModelArmy
    Linux

    Microsoft Monopoly Must End

    It still amazes me that Microsoft has a (near ?) monopoly on the global PC systems, with their actions causing vast e-waste, and yet no government or the EU have batted an eyelid.

    Microsoft are treating the global population with utter contempt, and although there are options (Linux), i don't see any campaigns, whether government/EU based, or media, to educate people that Linux is more than a valid alternative.

    1. williamyf Bronze badge

      Re: Microsoft Monopoly Must End

      Well, you can always move to apple... oh wait, they discontinue OS support for machines ~7~10 years old.

      Or, you can move to chrome OS... Oh wait, they discontinue support after 10 years on newer models, much less on older ones.

      Or you can go linux... oh wait, from time to time they drop some architectures....

      Microsoft supports OS for 10 years of the date of launch. Sometimes thay even exceed these terms (see winXP). Win10 in that respect is no different than Win 8.1, Win7, Win Vista, WinXP and Win2000 before it....

      1. NewModelArmy

        Re: Microsoft Monopoly Must End

        The key issue is that e-waste is a problem based on a Microsoft whim. TPM 2.0 offers benefits over TPM 1.2, but do we really need it for personal/home computing environments ?

        Does anyone get physically targeted for the information on their PC ? (apart from financial purposes - recall crypto kidnaps that have happened).

        A recent article on this site shows that only now is support for the Intel 486 processor is being dropped for Linux, which is a 30+ year old processor. Not exactly the 10 years claim by yourself.

      2. Benegesserict Cumbersomberbatch Silver badge

        Re: Microsoft Monopoly Must End

        Win10 is different from the other releases in that Micros~1 said words to the effect that "Windows 10 will be the last release we'll ever make. From now on it will just be security updates." Now they've expensively made fools of anyone who believed them, but hey, when was the last time that happened?

      3. navarac Silver badge

        Re: Microsoft Monopoly Must End

        << Microsoft supports OS for 10 years of the date of launch. Sometimes they even exceed these terms (see winXP). Win10 in that respect is no different than Win 8.1, Win7, Win Vista, WinXP and Win2000 before it.... >>

        That doesn't mean that because they've got away with before, it is the right thing to do - again. These days of environmental awareness, at least outside the US, should shake some sense into Microsoft. I don't see it happening, though.

      4. GNU Enjoyer
        Unhappy

        Re: Microsoft Monopoly Must End

        The kernel, Linux does not drop architectures very often and it's usually decades after an architecture becomes obsolete.

        Even if the architecture is dropped, you can keep using the latest version before the drop without any issues for years, as it's not like the SYSCALL API changes very often.

        i686 is still supported and it will be supported for at least 10 more years, if not longer, and most old computers you can find are AMD64 now, thus support is not going to be dropped for all the general purpose computers that still work fine any time soon.

        The GNU is much better when it comes to architecture support - for example support for Itanium was removed from newer versions of GCC due to lack of maintenance, but it was soon re-added when a maintainer was found - so moving to GNU/Linux-libre will ensure your computer will work until the hardware fails (which should be decades, but can be shorter if poor-quality components are used).

        Also, free software gives you the freedom to just use old versions of software if you wish and if you do that, you don't need to care if support for the architecture was dropped, as what you have installed will just keep working, as it doesn't contain any antifeatures to sabotage its operation.

  11. LenG

    I'm lazy

    And this is the only reason I still use win 10, as I am quite certain that there is nothing I do nowadays which cannot be done on linux. If/when maintaining a safe win 10 becomes problematic I will make the move.

  12. frg

    Funny that Server 2025 which is basically Windows 11 24H2 has not the same restrictions as 11.

    No secure boot needed. Will happily install and work with even a legacy boot configuration

    No 8th or higher gen CPU. It will probably work with any Nehalem or later based cpu.

    No TPM requirement.

    Tested the evaluation version on a Skylarke Thinkpad P70 and it is fine. Didn't try it on my very old Xeon Westmere box which I basically just retired but I bet it will work too.

    So if you are a company running a server you don't need the added security. Only simple peasants running a single system need it. Yeah right.... I bet AMD and Intel agree and it has nothing to do with MS wanting you to buy a new box.

    FRG

    1. williamyf Bronze badge

      Skylake has HVCI but not MVEC. Probably you are using a codepath that uses HVCI (as it is required for Winserver 2025) but not MBEC, meaning that you may get a penalty hit ranging from 0% to 40%, with a 15%~30% in real world scenarios.

      WE server people know this stuff, but desktop people (even very smart and inteligent ones) may not (say, a person that does not read el reg, but subcribes to "the lancet" and understand every article).

      Better mandate an 8th gen processor with MBEC and have similar performance in Win11 and Win10, than allowing 4th gen ones (IIRC the first ones with HVCI) and letting people see a 30% drop in performance in Win11 and have a PR crysis in your hands...

      JM2¢

      YMMV

      1. frg

        That is not a point. Spectre microcode mitigation code can hit older processors pretty hard too in specific workloads. So not always but usually a later cpu has advantages. Would be somewhat bad if a newer generation is not at least a bit better:)

        The point is that in my view arbitrary requirements are used to block installation on older systems. And there are still documented workarounds to installing anyway. I know lots of poeple who do this and are at least ok with the performance they get out of it. If it is really about security first MS should have blocked all unofficial workarounds instead of doing it piecemeal and set the same requirements for the server variant.

    2. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

      There's nothing funny about this because it's obvious the requirements are merely stipulated to force people to upgrade and even spark another hardware upgrade cycle. The unintended consequence of this is that many users will switch to Linux Mint to enable them to keep their (sometimes relatively young) hardware employed.

  13. Alumoi Silver badge
    Joke

    El Reg, stop with the subliminal messages

    I bet I'm not the only one reading the title as 'Will Windows 12 bring another shit?'

  14. nijam Silver badge

    > ... emphasize the TPM as a boon for security,

    Not a universally-held opinion, in fact.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      My instant reaction to hearing Microsoft claim something to be advantageous is to add "for you, not for me" to the message and act accordingly.

    2. Annihilator Silver badge

      The only 'benefit' I can see is that when my mother-in-law's PC dies, I now won't be able to easily recover the personal data from the storage device, because it'll be encrypted by the local TPM. And there's zero chance she'll have a copy of that key anywhere, because she won't know it exists.

      Still. At least her spreadsheet of contacts and her pictures of the grandkids are "secure". That will come as some blessed relief to her.

  15. t0m5k1

    Win 12 Requirements

    It will only have 2:

    MS Account

    RDP

    As I still have a really big gut feeling they will force it to be All AVD or 3/4 AVD with a base install to get RDP running.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    TPM and secure boot/UEFI are really, really important people.Without them you'll never have a secure OS and are forced to install updates every 2nd tuesday of every month just to stay safe. /s

  17. mark l 2 Silver badge

    If the MS true desire was to ensure every Windows 11 OS install had a TPM for security reasons, there wouldn't be work arounds to let you install it on a PC that doesn't have one. It would simply refuse to work without a TPM.

    So its clearly an artificially created barrier designed to sell more PCs and Windows 11 OS licenses, and create additional revenue by making a subscription model for Windows 10 security patches for those who can't or don't want to upgrade.

  18. williamyf Bronze badge

    Windows 12 requirements My prediction:

    From 8GB ram to 32GB (or more) of RAM (you will need system RAM for the AI models). (current req is 4GB in Win11)

    11th gen intel or equivalent AMD (from Win11's 8th gen intel or Zen2 AMD ) Please notice that from early this year, Win11 OEM machines MUST ship with these (11th gen or above) processors.

    AVX 2 support (current req is SEE 4 in Win11) Note that AVX2 instructions are available since 4th gen cores, so, a non-issue.

    Either AVX-VNNI OR some NPU (we do not know if bigger or lower than a 40TOPS) will be needed (currently none is required in base Win11, NPU with 40 TOPS is required in Win11 + AI). This way, even the base version of win12 will have some AI capabilitiees, albeit for inference in models with very small processiong requirements.

    TPM 2 and UEFI with secure boot same as today. Please notice that ALL Supported processors in Win11 (from 8th gen Intel and Zen2 AMD onwards) have fTPM or PTT, so, has always been a non-issue

    NVMe SSD mandatory for boot and swap (currently you can still use an HDD in Win11 for boot and swap, even if no one does so) Note: The less minium requirement memmory, the more you will be swaping those AI models in and out a lot.

    WDDM 2.4 ~ 2.7 ; most likely 2.4 (currently WDDM 2.0 in Win11)

    DX12 FL 12.1 ; this means GTX 9xx, AMD RX6000 or Intel Xe (currently 11_x ~ 12 in Win11)

    If they mandate DP4a support in the GPU for AI fallback, it means that nVidia GTX 10x0 will be needed. (currently, DP4a support is not required in Win11)

    Drivers will be Windows dektop universal drivers, same as today.

  19. BinkyTheMagicPaperclip Silver badge

    The difference is hardware has been fast enough for productivity for at least fifteen years

    Not wanting to move to a new version of Windows isn't even remotely new. Plenty of people didn't want to move from XP to Vista, and some still complain. Regardless of the shaky start to Vista it did improve security and scalability, and move the Windows UI to a compositor model - good for security, smoothness, simplified drivers, and hi DPI monitors (but not so much graphics cards with limited VRAM..).

    There really are good reasons for this, especially when browsers now consume an infeasibly huge amount of memory regardless of your operating system (most of 30GB memory[1] on this FreeBSD box is currently consumed by Firefox running forty odd tabs..).

    However, the (relatively slow) J5005 Silver in this Wyse 5070 from 2017 is as fast as a decent desktop processor from 2010-2012, yet it's capable of handling websites in 2025. It would be ridiculous to suggest in 2006 on the launch of Vista that running a 486 from 1991 would be sufficient.

    I'm all for increased security, you only have to look at the very recent news to see this is an issue. However I'm not convinced the mandate of TPM 2.0 and later CPUs is necessary for this. The vendors have tried to push new PC sales with the mantra of 'security' - and that failed. Now they're trying with the effort of 'AI' and guess what, that's not working either.

    I'm moving my systems to FreeBSD, but psst Microsoft - dirty secret for you! I've other things I want to do and an easy option will make me delay that! Drop the processor and TPM requirements, don't insist on a Microsoft account or a sign up to Windows Store[1], let me disable AI, and don't stick adverts in Windows and I'll *buy* an upgrade to Windows 12 Pro.

    [1] I do recommend one - it's fast enough and fanless, but note it will run *incredibly slowly* if you install more than 30GB memory. It's necessary to limit the memory used by the OS to no more than this.

    [2] looked in store again recently. Tempted by a couple of inexpensive games, looked around, they were cheaper on competing platforms or consoles.

    1. Michael Strorm Silver badge

      Re: The difference is hardware has been fast enough for productivity for at least fifteen years

      > Regardless of the shaky start to Vista

      That makes it sound like Vista was a success later on and... it really wasn't.

      Of course, one could argue that Windows 7 was essentially a *much* improved "Windows Vista Second Edition" with the major flaws ironed out and what Vista should have been in the first place.

      But the fact that by that point they couldn't- and wouldn't- dare call it that simply shows how irrevocably tainted the Vista name had become and- in turn- how big a disaster it had been in the first place, even if it introduced things that stood a better chance as part of Windows 7.

  20. Groo The Wanderer - A Canuck

    Screw Microsoft and Satya and their AI nightmare.

    LMDE6 rules.

    And will forever more; I'm not switching back to the ineffective bugfest again. Turns out that all the CUDA loads and docker images I couldn't get running on Windblows run just fine under LMDE6... on the exact same hardware. The problem isn't hardware support; it's vendors who lack functioning brain cells...

  21. SURFERNAUT
    Mushroom

    RESET IT ALL

    To hell with microjunk and the whole lot.

    Go back to landline phones and sneaker net!

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I'm missing all the Apple fan boys who used to pile in on any microsoft stories, seems they've been replaced by the Linux crew.

    1. ecofeco Silver badge
      FAIL

      Yeah, never mind us folks who work with global scale M$ system, for decades, and keep them running 24/7, telling you they are shit.

      What do we know, right?

      Numpty.

  23. ComicalEngineer Bronze badge

    The money stream

    Let's be brutally honest, what M$ wants us to do is to pay more for our software.

    One of the best ways of doing this is to have a new glittering piece of software with some unique selling point.

    Only it's become incredibly difficult to find a new USP for an operating system so M$ are down to tinkering with the interface. LOOK it's got ROUNDED CORNERS on the windows ... or going further back anyone remember the semi-transparent panes?

    I will be brutally honest here, as a person who uses their PC 95% for work, no Windows version since 7 has offered me anything new that I need to do my job. The W8 / 8.1 interface experience was truly horrible, but TBH, I'm quite happy with 10 having spent a *happy* half hour turning off the spyware. That said, over the last 5 years I've found myself using Linux Mint more and more for everyday tasks.

    My brief experience with 11 has been that the user interface is just plain anoying, especially the adverts and spyware plus the limited taskbar (I want it on the left FFS, how is that difficult?) There are numerous other irritations that prevent me using the OS in the way that I've done for the past 30 years and I'm not going to bother learning a whole new set of ways to work because some half-baked programmer with an IQ near my shoe size in Redmond thinks that hidden scroll bars or some other such idea is cool.

  24. anthonyhegedus Silver badge

    defective shite

    It's a wonder anything from Microsoft works at all. Are they really moving people onto Windows 11 to "protect" them? Have they suddenly "realised" that Windows 10 is defective and insecure? Come on... that's nonsense. They're trying to force new standards, as part of something we aren't aware of yet. New standards that Microsoft will be at the forefront of. All they're interested in is getting a bigger slice of the market in which to peddle their defective shite.

    By making an OS that'll only run on (relatively) modern hardware, it'll force people to buy newer hardware. Some people will buy their AI-capable hardware, more than would otherwise have bought it anyway. That's all they need: an uptick in the number of people buying computers capable of more than 40 TOPS (the minimum for a copilot-ready PC). Of course, the hardware manufacturers will be happy, but more to the point, there'll be more hardware out there that can run Microsoft's AI stuff. And that's an opportunity to sell it more.

    If MS had let people carry on with Windows 10, there wouldn't be a small increase in the sales of AI-ready hardware. It's pure greed. They want to artificially boost the market in their favour, even at the cost of consigning perfectly serviceable computers to the rubbish-heap.

    The right thing to do would have been to have some corporate responsibility and keep windows 10 machines relevant until they're just too old. But not content with the way things have been for the last 30 years - gradual improvements leading to a hardware/software race, they're trying to game the market in their favour.

  25. ecofeco Silver badge
    Pirate

    LOL wut?

    Is this a trick question?

    If the goalposts aren't moved and the deck chairs re-arranged, whatever is M$ purpose in life?

    Oh right. -------------------------------------------->>>>>

  26. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

    Sales ploy

    Clearly a sales ploy. All these security improvements have never hindered the pwning of Windows computers in any substantial manner. Even to this day disk encryption isn't standard on Windows 10 computers (it is in Windows 11, though, more than 2 decades after TrueCrypt / Veracrypt saw the light) except in the Pro (business) version.

    But all those PC's that are being left behind will most likely switch to Linux Mint, which is far more secure and almost infinitely supported by hardware going back decades.

  27. CA Dave

    I woke up one day and turned on my sleeping laptop just to discover those bastards upgraded me to 11 from 10 without my explicit consent. It was just auto pushed and I hadn't read anything up until that time that it was being force-installed. Downgrading at the time would have been a massive hassle. Microsoft would normally be hauled in front of Congress if the Dems were the ruling party, and there would be a lawsuit from DOJ. The Repubs don't care.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      > Microsoft would normally be hauled in front of Congress if the Dems were the ruling party

      You think? I could more easily imagine them doing nothing.

      Regardless of the ludicrous "Dems and anything to the left of Ayn Rand are Marxism/Maoism!!!!111" propaganda designed to drag the Overton window even further to the right and mindlessly- or shamelessly- parroted by swivel-eyed US conservatives, the "Dems" nowadays seem to be a very corporate-friendly, corporate-captured shadow of what they were once supposed to be, "left wing" only if you have nothing other than their US Republican rivals to compare against.

  28. Kev99 Silver badge

    The minimum requirements for win 10 over win 7 were a sales play. I had win10 running on a pc I built in 2010 with no problems. I also had win11 running on the same box for an unholy while (both it and homebrew are gone.) The requirements exist solely, in my opinion, to sucker buyer into buying new kit that isn't needed, and new software that is usually worse than the previous version.

  29. razorfishsl

    The TPM has NOTHING to do with securing the computer for security sake.

    it has EVERYTHING to do with MS trying to kill linux

    1. anthonyhegedus Silver badge

      If Microsoft really cared about their users' security, they'd improve the rest of their shitty software intead of concentrate on this TPM.

    2. Adair Silver badge

      If 'trying to kill Linux' is even a reason, and I think that pretty unlikely, it is going to be a very secondary one, and a pretty costly and hamfisted one at that.

      MS's war against Linux ended a long time ago. MS may not like it, but denial is no longer where they are at, or even anger, they have reached acceptance—begrudgingly and no doubt with a willingness to throw out spoilers where they can.

      The reality is that Linux, as a global OS presence, is ubiquitous and entrenched, and not even MS has the clout to undo that reality. Linux as an 'alternative Desktop' is a different matter, but even there MS's options are limited. How do you fight someone who has no interest in fighting you, but just walks away, dodges around, mostly just ignores you and gets on with doing what actually interests them? You waste a huge amount of valuable energy, end up looking foolish, and lose.

      MS is a slave to it's neo-liberal capitalist shareholder's interests, and as long as that slavery continues as its raison d'tre it's enshittification will continue and we will all get to witness the inevitable senescence as people and organisations disentangle themselves and move away to more agreeable, effective, and humane solutions. It'll take time, but it's happening, and only MS has the power to change the direction of it's travel and reverse the bleeding out as 'clients/customers/hosts (in the parasitic sense)' go elsewhere.

      1. collinsl Silver badge

        These days Windows is a sideline to Microsoft, they make most of their money with Azure hosting, and secondarily M365 services.

        And what OS underpins most of Azure? Linux! Specifically a customised version built by Microsoft for their needs.

        So they can hardly claim to hate Linux since it's now holding up their biggest money spinner.

  30. Inkey
    Flame

    Seems simple

    "it's quite conceivable that future versions of Windows could impose even stricter hardware demands, potentially leaving an even larger number of currently functional PCs unable to"---

    and the simple fact is that as long as people buy the hyped up claims m$ makes, and settle for less the longer they will continue to suck as much as they can out of their victims

  31. bsilva66
    WTF?

    TPM - security for whom?

    I wonder if I am the only one old enough to remember the Intel PSN controversy, and wonder how we went from a "simple" chip ID that nobody wanted to a "cpu inside your cpu" that everyone accepts, just "because security".

    Let's be real, the TPM is a black box. It might allow security, it can enforce full signing of the OS stack and restrict what you can run on a pc. But what else can it do? Who has the keys, what are the backdoors, what is really done inside the black box? Who audits it, and can they fully ensure it isn't phoning home, and will not open everything on your PC to the user with the "right" credentials?

    I do find it particularly troubling how microsoft is pushing its use, not only with Windows 11, but with even agent P coming out trying to push signed kernel images (validated by the TPM) as the only way Linux should be allowed to run (or something to the same effect, couldn't be bothered to read that person's ramblings again). All in the name of "security". And still, the security issues pile up every day. So, security for whom?

  32. TheBadja

    Remember when…

    Does anyone else remember when Microsoft said Windows 10 will be the last operating system you will ever need because it would always be continuously updated?

  33. steviebuk Silver badge

    Security Sale: Because Fear Sells Best

    I asked ChatGPT for the title :)

    That's what its about. Attempting to head towards the Apple model of locked in walled garden, hence the Windows Store app and the attempt to using their bullshit new MSIX installers (any time I come across one of those its fucking annoying). Scaring people not in the know that they need it for "security innit".

    They will sell it as security but its really an attempt to tie the user in, make sales for Microsoft (considering some of their own recently hardly isn't "compatible" with Windows 11) and moving towards a Software as a Service model (hate even writing that term. Most of those "cloud" terms are fucking annoying).

    If they aren't careful it will, instead, push people to Linux. If all you want to do is surf the web and use office online (yes they can use Libra Office which I point people too), then all they need is Linux and we know Linux is more secure (until it becomes really popular and then it will be targeted as much as Windows is). But Microsoft won't tell people this, they are quite happy for them to bin their 2 year old laptop in landfill when really it could just run Linux. Their green washing is another point on contention, considering their CoPilot AI caused their carbon footprint to increase last year, not decrease.

    Sat Nav is just a greedy cunt.

    I can see I'll never get a job at Microsoft :)

  34. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Corporations already dump old hardware in the trash and complaint from consumers does not give more than a small mosquito bite at MS. 99.99% of population does not know Linux, 2% on a Mac on most don't even know what they actually use. Win and all it games and apps go into the cloud and stream to your house and you rent a Windows client box you may get from your ISP, no more fixing bugs, no more upgrading hardware. No more complaints or service support. That whats will happen. Then companies will move their engineering development software that needs powerfull hardware in the cloud subscription based , PC hardware will become a niche and unaffordable only for professionals in corporations. Its about money remember. There will be a niche of open source developers trying to keep Linux alive which may need to run in Windows cloud as well for their development, because embedded systems cannot use windows. it will become impossible or very hard to digest the cloud cost for small companies. small companies and SMB will suffer, but that is not government or MS's main interest.

  35. Homer10

    Normal guy

    Windows10 works just fine for me. I am seeing the writing on the wall, and am looking to upgrade my main machine. My current machine won't upgrade to Windows11, and I don't want to take the chance of shoehorning windows 11 onto my very old machine. But, if I buy a new machine, will Microsoft force me to move to a new machine in a few years to install Window 12 ? Hmmmm....

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Other stories you might like