Europe's cloud customers eyeing exit from US hyperscalers

Are customers on the European side of the pond considering a move from US hyperscalers in the wake of recent events? Some of the region's vendors are reporting an uptick in inquiries as organizations mull their options. After a year of navel-gazing over AI, the topic dominating conversations at April's KubeCon EU event was …

[Doctor Syntax]

I'm surprised that Frank Karlitschek is surprised about "the espionage factor". Data sovereignty has been a concern for a long time although maybe not as prominent as it should have been (i.e. not prominent enough for governments to take much action). It should still be a factor in a post-Trump world.

Along the same lines I find "Vultr, an American-based company with datacenters worldwide, has seen an uptick in interest in sovereign infrastructure" a remarkable statement. Can a US company provide infrastructure which is sovereign for any country other then the US?

At least people are waking up to the significance of "It's somebody else's computer you don't control".

[A Non e-mouse]

I seem to recall Microsoft setting up a company in Europe (In Germany?) which aimed to allow Microsoft to supply Office 365 but gave greater separate between the US HQ and the servers in the EU.

[Dan 55]

It's all smoke and mirrors, you cannot use servers provided by a US company or subsidiary of one because they're subject to the US' CLOUD Act. Whatever they might claim, there's no way around that.

[Joe W]

That. People here have been saying exactly that ever since the CLOUD act was passed.

[Anonymous Coward]

Similarly, the UK just enacted a law demanding that any corporations give them access to whatever data they demand - regardless of where it is in the world.

By the same logic, any corporation that has a business presence in the UK, with that requirement, is also set up to perform espionage against its users, regardless what country they're in. Microsoft, Apple, Googoyle, Wayfair, Ikea, Samsung, ....

[Anonymous Coward]

"UK just enacted a law demanding that any corporations give them access to whatever data they demand"

That's great, but what if that data doesn't exist? What if they can't prove it exists?

[Julian Bradfield]

"Similarly, the UK just enacted a law demanding that any corporations give them access to whatever data they demand - regardless of where it is in the world."

Can we have a reference for that? I think I would have noticed.

You may perhaps been thinking of the law passed several years ago which can require communications and storage providers to ensure they can respond to a warrant, which is not quite the same, though bad enough, and which was recently deployed against Apple.

[Anonymous Coward]

This specific instance it wasn't a subsidiary, the azure region / zone is owned and run by a German company not related to Microsoft, they are a service provider in Germany, they pay Microsoft for the software.

So the equivalent of the CLOUD act having an impact on any person / company using windows.

But that still have the problem of Microsoft cutting of software updates, both for this specific azure location and their (or any us software company) software in general.

[Dan 55]

The data trustee model with German Azure data centres run by T-Systems was terminated in 2018. There doesn't appear to be anything to replace it.

[Jugularveins]

The company the TO was referring to is https://www.deloscloud.de/index.html

This is a company consisting out of SAP and Avarto Busisness Services who are standing up a Azure-like Cloud using the Azure technology stack doing this.

They aim to provide Office365 as the first services ...

MicroSoft do not have any direct stakes in this construct.

But none the less ... It will be interesting to see what type of "old, residual code" might slip through here

[Doctor Syntax]

I hadn't heard of that one. It's an interesting development can users transfer on-prem licences as they can do with the official Azure but, unfairly, not with the competition?

[CowHorseFrog]

Its amazing how people are so dumb and never asked why the US CLOUD act exists. If its important for USA gov, then it should be a warning that others also need to control where their data is.

Its exactly the same argument around TikTok, if TT is important for the Chinese, then it should be equally understood that the US Gov needs US social media networks to hold their data in the USA.

[Doctor Syntax]

It exists because there was a good chance TPTB in the US tried to take a shortcut instead of going the legal route of getting an Irish warrant and looked like they might lose in the US court.

[Jamie Jones]

I'm also sceptical, but the principle behind the "Vultr Sovereign Cloud" is explained here: https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/vultr-launches-sovereign-and-private-cloud-offering/

Vultr PR statement and explanation: https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20240410063826/en/Vultr-Launches-Sovereign-Cloud-and-Private-Cloud-to-Bring-Digital-Autonomy-to-Nations-and-Enterprises-Worldwide

And a bit from Vultr itself about the current news: https://blogs.vultr.com/omdia-sovereign-cloud-2025

[Doctor Syntax]

None of those links even mentions the CLOUD act let alone provide an explanation of why it wouldn't apply.

I suppose it would be possible for a US company to come to a franchise model where the company provides the S/W and IP to a franchisee wholly owned and managed by nationals of the territory to which sovereign services are to be provided with the contract signed in and subject only to the laws of that territory and specifying strict hands-off by the franchisor. That would enable them to set up a Google, AWS or Microsoft-branded sovereign cloud.

It would also be possible, I suppose, for a company with experience setting up a generic cloud service to provide consultancy, initial or on-going, to a locally owned and operated sovereign cloud.

Even then, the local operators would have to have some means of verifying S/W from the provider.

What I do not see is how local day-to-day operation and even part ownership of a US corporation's operation is going to be able to prevent against a demand by the USG with its notions of extra-territorial legislation.

[FirstTangoInParis]

So I’m wondering if it is possible to build a data centre with no US content at all, in case the administration decides to pull the plug or suddenly charge some whopping fees or even claim access to or sovereignty over the data because of US stuff used to store it somehow.

ARM CPU’s, European made servers, and open source everything else. No US designed commercial software allowed. Then European network gear with non US chips.

That should make them sit up and take notice.

[Jamie Jones]

> None of those links even mentions the CLOUD act let alone provide an explanation of why it wouldn't apply

I know. That's why I'm sceptical too!

[MachDiamond]

"At least people are waking up to the significance of "It's somebody else's computer you don't control"."

It seems more like people are looking at different people's computers they don't control to move their stuff too. If the inquiries were more about the hardware and data connections to bring things in-house, I'd agree with you.

[may_i]

Just do it!

We need to get away from services provided by US companies as quickly as possible. When faced with a capricious and hostile US government, EU countries being blackmailed by the US by turning off access to US cloud services is no longer a theoretical risk.

The company that I work for in Sweden would instantly be unable to do business if Microsoft turned off access to EntraID for example and that's far from a unique position.

We need to take this risk very seriously and start doing something about it NOW, before the risk turns into a reality. The fact that EU companies use Office 364.25 with total disregard for the fact that all their data is available to the US government is something which has been conveniently ignored for far too long. The migration away from US services should have started when the US Cloud Act was passed.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Just do it!

"The migration away from US services should have started when the US Cloud Act was passed."

Given the prior existence of national security letters and all the rest of it that dependence should never have existed. GDPR should have made it illegal and all the fig-leaves that were constructed to allow it to continue despite GDPR were an obvious fail at the time. All the CLOUD Act did was give Microsoft an excuse when they were in a legal bind.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Just do it!

"The fact that EU companies use Office 364.25"

364.25. Funny.

[druck]

Re: Just do it!

Vastly optimistic.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Just do it!

"The company that I work for in Sweden would instantly be unable to do business if Microsoft turned off access to EntraID for example and that's far from a unique position."

So your job is based on Microsoft not screwing something up? Stack some money away against the inevitable day when the company you work for is toast.

[Mentat74]

"the Trump effect"...

You mean : Everything he touches turns to shiat ?

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: "the Trump effect"...

In this case all he's done is raise the visibility of the risky nature of the existing situation so that even some boards and governments have noticed it. If things get worse they might even start to do something.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: "the Trump effect"...

In this case all he's done is raise the visibility of the risky nature of the existing situation so that even some boards and governments have noticed it. If things get worse they might even start to do something.

The CLOUD Act pre-dated Trump and was a few years in the making, so boards and governments had plenty of time to consider the implications. The current spat has perhaps just brought that more sharply into reality. US sanctions EU goods, EU threatens to sanction US goods and services. France doesn't want their wine taxed more in any trade war, so load that onto Ireland and their services.

Which isn't great for business caught in the middle of political dick waving contests, so it might be a bit of a welcome wake-up call that betting a large chunk of your business on the largesse of politicians isn't the smartest idea. Especially when building your own private 'cloud' isn't necessarily that difficult compared to the potential risks of being caught up in the crossfires of a trade war.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: "the Trump effect"...

"The CLOUD Act pre-dated Trump and was a few years in the making, so boards and governments had plenty of time to consider the implications."

Absolutely. It's not the time that matters, it's the inclination as the Leaning Tower of Pisa said to Big Ben.

A smart move for Microsoft might be to turn over the Irish DCs to an Irish or EU company owned and managed by EU nationals run as a franchise with a contract under Irish or other EU state law that prevents any access by Microsoft but with Microsoft branding licenced to them. Ditto AWS. I wonder if there are any corporate lawyers in their homee state who have experience of international franchising of brands and other IP.

[MachDiamond]

Re: "the Trump effect"...

"You mean : Everything he touches turns to shiat ?"

Everything turns to glod.

[Pascal Monett]

"I think this is a realistic fear nowadays"

It's about bloody time.

I have never understood this precipitation to store confidential company data on someone else's server. Once upon a time, even the contact list of a marketing jocky was considered top secret. Now, just slap the term "cloud" in the conversation and suddenly everybody is willing to give up the company jewels to someone they don't know, on servers they have no idea who manages them, because of a contract specifying some artificial performance parameters (eh, Microsoft, with your Office 365 that has never held up to its name ?).

Okay, if they start using European cloud providers, from my point of view the madness hasn't exactly stopped, but at least their data will no longer be at the mercy of a US National Security letter (remember that thing ?).

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: "I think this is a realistic fear nowadays"

>store confidential company data on someone else's server.

You keep company money in someone else's bank, you process payments on someone else's network, you talk on someone else's phones. Upto now you could generally trust contracts in civilised countries

[Tron]

Re: "I think this is a realistic fear nowadays"

I wouldn't consider Trump's behaviour to be 'civilised'. However, if your data is encrypted before it leaves your system, and stays that way until it returns, your only concern is losing access. And if you live in a country like the UK, your own government's snooper's charter may allow them to demand access.

If you want to keep something secret, such as an industrial process, legal documents, pre-patent IP, it should never leave your internal network. And your internal network should not connect to the internet.

High capacity drives should do you for local storage. If your needs are vast, you might want to audit your data use. Do you need it all? Could you archive a lot of it? Do you just save everything because you can? Can you be more choosy about the data you retain. Both storage and bandwidth are money, and they are also a risk.

Keep your data on your own system.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "I think this is a realistic fear nowadays"

"However, if your data is encrypted before it leaves your system, and stays that way until it returns, your only concern is losing access."

That should be worrying enough.

The International Criminal Court in The Hague faces just this threat from US sanctions for its arrest warrant against Netanyahu. It also included financial sanctions requiring emergency action from Dutch government to ensure payments could continue.

That has resulted in government action in the Netherlands against US cloud use in Dutch government.

How long it will take before the wholesale embrace of US services has been rolled back is anyone's guess.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: "I think this is a realistic fear nowadays"

"You keep company money in someone else's bank"

There have been strict rules for a very long time about bankers not helping themselves to your cash and on the whole banks have a long record in looking after money. In the case of individual investors there's further backing in the form of compensation rules. Even so, if any European country were keeping its money solely in a US-controlled bank I'd expect them to be looking at moving it out.

The equivalent doesn't apply to keeping information in somebody else's computer. Rules are recent and not yet sufficiently well enforced where they exist (GDPR). On the contrary there are rules enabling governments to force the owner of the computer to break any agreements as to confidentiality.

Information and money work differently. Either the money is in your bank or it it not. Although information is spoken of as stolen it usually isn't - it's copied or illegally accessed but still there with no absence visible to the legitimate owner so that "theft" is not readily noticeable.

Going back to banking, there is one aspect which should be looked at for risks arising from actions of the USG: card transactions. To what extent could these be frozen at whim, disrupting the RotW's day-to-day retail transactions?

[Jellied Eel]

Re: "I think this is a realistic fear nowadays"

Going back to banking, there is one aspect which should be looked at for risks arising from actions of the USG: card transactions. To what extent could these be frozen at whim, disrupting the RotW's day-to-day retail transactions?

Easy, and it's already been done. Like cutting a certain country off from Swift and Mastercard & Visa. Do you accept Mir? Could you accept Mir? Plus the example of freezing central bank deposits, stealing the interest and trying hard to figure out ways to steal the principle. Despite warnings that this set a rather dangerous precedent, and Trump making assorted threats about punishing nations that might try to move their money away from the US's grasp.. And I'm betting the current spat with China will lead to secondary sanctions to try and isolate it. But might just end up isolating the US and EU instead.

[MachDiamond]

Re: "I think this is a realistic fear nowadays"

"There have been strict rules for a very long time about bankers not helping themselves to your cash and on the whole banks have a long record in looking after money."

But there should be concern about the legality of banks "Bailing-in" with clients money. The framework is set up for that, it's just that nobody has done it .... yet.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "I think this is a realistic fear nowadays"

I may keep money in someone else's bank, but there are laws governing the operation of banks. For one, my deposits are guaranteed upto €100k by law. Data in cloud, not so much.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "I think this is a realistic fear nowadays"

You might get your money back if the bank that fails is singular and small.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "I think this is a realistic fear nowadays"

"I may keep money in someone else's bank, but there are laws governing the operation of banks."

If the USA puts you on one of their naughty lists, you won't see your money back.

The International Criminal Court found that out when they wanted to arrest a war criminal.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: "I think this is a realistic fear nowadays"

I wouldn't be putting my money in a US bank and if I weren't retired, I wouldn't be looking for a US company to hold my company's data.

[James Anderson]

Re: "I think this is a realistic fear nowadays"

Ah but another persons bank in another country Iceland for example.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "I think this is a realistic fear nowadays"

"Upto now you could generally trust contracts in civilised countries"

Such trust has DIED as of Trumpf & Putin demonstrating that 'International agreements' are JUST paper ... and whole law firms live by debating contracts and their validity !!!

The real world has just woken up ... at last !!!

Many people had doubts and were ignored !!!

BUT what more do you need to think such trust is now a 'Historical anachronism' like using wax seals of trust !!!

:)

[HMcG]

Re: "I think this is a realistic fear nowadays"

Very few EU citizens or companies keep their money in American banks. So that’s an entirely strawman argument.

[anothercynic]

Re: "I think this is a realistic fear nowadays"

However, a bank doesn't necessarily have to be American for the US to drag it into its legal net. All it takes is touching the US currency, or having a US subsidiary, or doing business with US companies.

[Healeyman]

Re: "I think this is a realistic fear nowadays"

Agreed. There was a time, when companies cared about data autonomy, that 'co-location'--i.e. 'CO-LOs' were popular. You rented space, power, A/C and network access in a warehouse-style facility and installed your own servers. Of course, then you had to pay techs and administrators, which hurt the 'bottom line.'

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: "I think this is a realistic fear nowadays"

Although you can't trust the OS on those servers isn't phoning home,

If you really cared about your Tea shop's data you would build you own machines

[MachDiamond]

Re: "I think this is a realistic fear nowadays"

"If you really cared about your Tea shop's data you would build you own machines"

And you should. If you have a tea shop that's making enough to pay it's way somewhere, you don't want that information being sold to some giant franchise tea shop looking for the next place to open a new shop.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "I think this is a realistic fear nowadays"

There's a big, big game starting to be played out and there will be a fight amongst the different powers. It's transnational not just international. Look at what's happening and the decisions being made, they are not logical in the context of the old world. It is clear to everyone that we cannot rely on old partners, EU & UK want to continue war with Russia whilst at the same time destroying their own resilience and handing control of critical systems to commercial entities. Tax continues to increase as does inflation but where is the money going? Everything is being taken from ordinary people little by little each year. The media runs cover for this, they didn't a couple of decades ago, well not so much. You don't own anything even your bank accounts can be legally taken by engineering or lying about the scenario. This is not about the political parties you see, they are the front men not the players.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: "I think this is a realistic fear nowadays"

"Everything is being taken from ordinary people little by little each year."

Tell ordinary people in the Ukraine that things are only being taken "little by little".

EU & UK don't want to continue war with Russia. They have a war on their doorstep which they don't want, didn't start but presents a real threat to their existence. "Wanting" doesn't come into it. They have no choice. They have to respond. The US has a long and ignominious history of ignoring of such threats until the threat reaches them; they tend to think WWI started in 1917 & WWII in 1941.

Take your head out of the sand, your arse or wherever else it's buried.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "I think this is a realistic fear nowadays"

Your head is buried in what you have been programmed to believe. Putin is no Angel but he's not Hitler either. Ukrainians are not Angels either, they were known as one of the most corrupt countries, they do have a Nazi problem and even the BBC reported on it prior to the Russian invasion. The CIA & State Dept did have a hand in regime change and the Ukrainians did kill 13,000 of ethnic Russians, we did use the Minsk agreements as cover for militarising Ukraine as Merkel stated when off guard, NATO did expand eastwards after promising not to. Russia gave every sign of wanting to become a Westernised country, the US twice pushed them away and the anti-Russian rhteoric started when a couple of things happened; i) they were being accepted in Europe as if just another country, ii) Putin kicked out the NGOs and the final straw he took control of his central bank. Oh and Russia did not blow up the pipeline which was either USA or someone sanctioned by USA which is what Biden promised Germany he would do. The Russians could simply turn the tap off.

People like you who go around like programmed bots are a huge danger to all of us. The media and governments lie continuously. Around about a million Ukrainians have died, it is not good for Ukraine and by the time this ends Ukraine will be not exist unless a peace miracle happens. Just like Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, Yemen & Iraq. Another smoking ruin. The hope had been Russia would be a ruin too but it's not proving so easy and will cost us nearly everything to achieve. So if you have kids keep it mind when they are sent to die in some dirty excrement filled trench slaughtered by snipers, drones or shelled to oblivion when we run out of modern munitions after a few days. I want better for mine and even for Ukrainian and Russian children.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: "I think this is a realistic fear nowadays"

"they do have a Nazi problem"

Yup. It is, or was, called Wagner.

"People like you who go around like programmed bots"

Says an A/C. ROFLMAO.

[CowHorseFrog]

Re: "I think this is a realistic fear nowadays"

Its ironic for being anti - nazi how a primary military force of Russia is named after Wagner.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "I think this is a realistic fear nowadays"

"Putin is no Angel but he's not Hitler either."

His hero and role model is Stalin. He doesn't like Hitler, but Europeans don't see Stalin as an improvement.

Also, you should visit the Siberian labour camps if you are in Russia. They give a "more nuanced" view of Putin compared to RT.

[CowHorseFrog]

Re: "I think this is a realistic fear nowadays"

He doesnt like Hitler the man, but he is playing the same playbook as Hitler.

Dictators always are the same, flag waving, speeches, wars.

[CowHorseFrog]

Re: "I think this is a realistic fear nowadays"

Putin is no different from Hitler.

The only difference between the two is one forced a global conflict, while one understands how weak and pathetic he is, and doesnt push his luck.

They both have no probblems and have demonstated many many examples of executing people. I guess in todays world with taller buildings, falling out of windows is more popular than in the older days of gas chambers.

[abend0c4]

Moving away from the hyperscalers is not straightforward

But the longer you leave it, the more difficult it will become.

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: Moving away from the hyperscalers is not straightforward

Isn't the point of the cloud that it's totally transparent and so should be easy to move?

Your app is running in a docker container totally isolated from the platform, doesn't anyone's docker host work equal well?

[A Non e-mouse]

Re: Moving away from the hyperscalers is not straightforward

That assumes you've written your app to run in a Docker container in the first place.

Some stuff you can't containerise. And others are using much higher level APIs for doing stuff in Google/Amazon's cloud.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Moving away from the hyperscalers is not straightforward

"Isn't the point of the cloud that it's totally transparent and so should be easy to move?"

Of course it is. That's what the salesman said so it must be true.

[keithpeter]

"The Reg has yet to hear of any corporate enteprises or government departments in the UK that are willing to go public about turning their back on US hyperscalers."

UK does have onion like layers of secrecy and always has. Goes back to Elizabeth 1 and Walsingham. Kit Marlowe was a moth to the flame and Tom Kyd was collateral damage.

I really can't understand the desire of the present government to allow Palantir of all companies access to lots of NHS and other centrally held data. Can't we manage data and extract value ourselves?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you understand greed and incompetence, you understand the decision making process just fine.

[Anonymous Coward]

Governments and politicians are puppets and front men. As I said above what is happening is transnational. That is why it appears to make no sense, because most people are looking only from a national context.

[Doctor Syntax]

Oh, look, an A/C trying to point to something he said earlier.

[TimMaher]

Re: A/C

Ah but @Doc, might not be the original A/C.

Might even be a D/C.

[MachDiamond]

"Can't we manage data and extract value ourselves?"

Saying "extract value" in context with the NHS makes me worry. It really shouldn't be looked at as a profit center.

[JimmyPage]

Some of us have been saying this for years

and roundly laughed at.

And it's not as anything has really changed. It's just it's being reported on now.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Some of us have been saying this for years

People should think why common sense is not followed by our leaders.

[m4r35n357]

Re: Some of us have been saying this for years

There is the problem in a nutshell - "common sense" (I hate that term) is boring, and people prefer "exciting" politicians. That preference is deeply embedded in human nature, and has repeated regularly and consistently over history. I cannot think of a solution to that.

[Derezed]

Re: Some of us have been saying this for years

War is the solution.

It reams out all those excited people (they are the first human waves).

You’re then left with the cynical, peace loving nihilist types. The Italian man from Catch 22.

[veti]

Re: Some of us have been saying this for years

"Common sense" is not even remotely close to what you think it is.

There's some amazingly selective memory going on among commentards here. Sure, we all remember when companies kept their data in-house, it was always available to anyone from anywhere, there were no leaks or data losses, servers never went down, sysadmins were always completely conscientious, industrious and respectful, they never made unreasonable requests or mistook a tech fad for a business need, costs were minimised...

From management's point of view, it's always been "someone else's computer". It's just that the relationship with that someone else is different now. More formal, better documented, more severable. Previously if you weren't happy with your server support, that was a personnel issue and you'd have to tread carefully and likely get HR involved. Now it's a contract issue, that's much easier to manage. For managers who've been dealing with wannabe BOFHs for the past 30 years, you can see how that would appeal.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Some of us have been saying this for years

"Now it's a contract issue, that's much easier to manage."

That's what the salesman said.

"For managers who've been dealing with wannabe BOFHs for the past 30 years, you can see how that would appeal."

Now they need those BOFHs but the other side has them. Other side? Yes, didn't you know a contract is between two sides?

[Jason Bloomberg]

Re: Some of us have been saying this for years

and roundly laughed at.

48% of Brits were demonised "enemies of the people" for not wanting to abandon the EU and pivot towards America, preferably for the brexiteers an America with a right-leaning Trump-style regime.

I wonder how's that working out for us so far?

[Jellied Eel]

Re: Some of us have been saying this for years

I wonder how's that working out for us so far?

Pretty well actually. We haven't been slapped with the sanction stick quite as hard as the EU has, and can attempt to negotiate our own solutions.

[Androgynous Cupboard]

Re: Some of us have been saying this for years

Because I did what he asked, he didn’t beat me as hard? That’s doesn’t mean things are working tout “pretty well””

[sfjohna]

Recommendation No 3 from the recent US Select Committee Report, "DeepSeek Unmasked":

3. Impose remote access controls on all data center, compute clusters, and models trained with the use of US-origin GPUs and other US=origin data center accelerators, including, but not limited to TPUs.

[abend0c4]

That's the thing. If you're reliant on any of the scaling services provided by the cloud vendor - from storage through to authentication - you're likely to have platform-dependent code.

Not to mention the potential costs of simply getting your data out in order to put it somewhere else.

[Steve Davies 3]

The USA... Well specifically Trump

has done this because he is an idiot who does not know how the world economy works.

The drop off in Tourists going to Truimpistan is going to hit places like Florida and Vegas. The latter, by all reports is more dead than alive.

With businesses now avoiding the USA for travel and now cloud services... Good. Hit Trumpistan in the wallet. $$$ is the only thing that Trump worships.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The USA... Well specifically Trump

If you make that comment thinking you know how the economy works and what is going on, you have a rude awakening coming. When everything is taken from you it wont matter that you can rant about Trump and Poootin.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: The USA... Well specifically Trump

Could you explain in more detail how everything is going to be taken away (by whom) from the OP (I take it you can explain how you're aware of his circumstances so that that could happen) and how this is dependent on how the economy (the economy of what) works.

Otherwise we just have to treat your comment as a collection of loosely associated words that don't make sense.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The USA... Well specifically Trump

Tax, inflation currently. Next it will be currency collapse during which its replacement (Britcoin) will be devalued so you when get a new digital pound for each old one it's less value. The banks will have initiated bailin which will take your money and the FSCS wont be able to compensate everyone unless they have massive quantitative easing which devalues the money. The UK & EU are already scheming how to raid personal pensions and savings. Reeves has talked about reviewing ISA and EU about how there's all this money being saved and it's not fair when they want it. NetZero BS will force you to pass more money to business and pay a fortune for energy which inflates again. Do you realise you do not completely own money in the bank and the majority of stocks, share and consequently pensions you do not own any of it you only have rights to the benefit. The banks in a collapse have first call on those assets. Oh and another conspiracy "theory" - covid, disability benefit reductions and assisted dying. Why pay pension benefits to people who are not productive is what is behind those.

Anyway, ignore me by all means but at least also ignore politicians and TV and look at real outcomes from real data.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: The USA... Well specifically Trump

"look at real outcomes from real data."

I've been looking at real life for a lot of decades now. I've seen a lot of politicians come and go, some from closer quarters than others.

About the most reassuring thing is that the current government is looking towards the EU again because, frankly, it feels even more stupid to be outside it than it did one of those decades ago.

I also remember the Brownomics years - perhaps you don't. I also remember the Winter of Discontent - perhaps you didn't. And Harold Wilson's "pound in your pocket" speech, exchange controls and the "gnomes of Zurich" - again, perhaps you don't. The thing is, the long term is usually muddling through in the UK.

I think the US has problems of an entirely different kind which is essentially the topic everyone else is addressing. Is that outside your brief?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit

I don't buy that for one minute. European cloud provider tells how everyone is leaving US cloud providers for European cloud providers? I thought readers here were meant to be cynics. This is such self serving bullshit I can smell it a mile off. I appreciate their are some chunky grains of truth to support the story told by the vendor, but really, everyone is upping sticks? Bullshit.

[Adair]

Re: Bullshit

You've got to start somewhere. Meanwhile the water keeps getting hotter, when are you going to jump out of the pan?

[David Hicklin]

Re: Bullshit

> European cloud provider tells how everyone is leaving US cloud providers for European cloud providers?

The article does not say that, indeed it stresses that there is an increase in enquiries where they are thinking about it and finding out what would be involved, how much effort would be needed and how much will it cost? Only after all that will companies make a decision.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Bullshit

Only after all that it's too late will companies make a decision. More likely result.

[jockmcthingiemibobb]

Re: Bullshit

It's not just Europe. Businesses in APAC are also actively trying to unravel their deoendance on USA owned cloud providers and software. As a minimum, any company outside the USA should at least have contingency plans should the pin be pulled.

[Anonymous Coward]

Elon is the eye-opener

I feel Elon is the eye-opener for many European companies. Elon is a very big investor in a wide range of industries going from automobile, aerospace, telecom, social media to AI. Quite a number of European and other non-US companies are active in these sectors.

Having such major competitor getting so easily read and write access to near all of the databases of a very large range of diverse strictly regulated government IT systems so easily while bypassing procedures, safety gaurds, security clearance of personel, laws and even often plain ignoring court rulings to stop him / them from continuing should shock any potential competitor.

Any sane competitor should get the cold shivers as what it could mean to their technological secrets, their trade secrets, their bids under competition to obtain large orders from governments and companies alike and the ability to not only destroy but possible worse covertly alter critical data so they are vulnerable to things like production jams slashing output, providing faulty products to their customers, juridical procedures from regulators and more. Non of it may ever happen, but nothing says it isn't happening already. Giving DOGE the task to look for government waste sort of is an open invitation to check the bids that Elon's competitors won rather then him, and if bids from other competitors that didn't won either were better. It almost feels as if it is a duty to check them to be sure, looking from a DOGE perspective.

Trust is broken and much more easily lost than regained. Shifts may take time, but inquiries as to what options there are will be made left and right.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Elon is the eye-opener

YES! This is beyond governments, politicians and national borders. People need to ignore the hysteria and hate speech about Trump, Pootin, Musk, Xi etc., you're looking at global power plays and the other team owns the media. The only question is who can provide the best outcome for ordinary people. Not promise, not now but ultimately. The bubble will burst, we cannot carry permanently increasing debt that outstrips productivity. Which entities do you think will take everything as a result? Trump is just one of the players at the table, there are many we do not even know the names of or suspect.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Elon is the eye-opener

And?

[DS999]

Serves them right

The CEOs of Microsoft, Google and Amazon all contributed to Trump's inauguration slush fund (i.e. directly into his pocket) and showed up at the inauguration as well. They appeasement would work in their favor, I'd be happy to see it knock a few hundred billion off their market caps by causing everyone outside the US to flee to less compromised cloud providers.

[Falmari]

Re: Serves them right

Microsoft's CEO did not attended Trump's inauguration though he did congratulate Trump on Xitter. Neither did the CEO donate personally or as Microsoft to Trump's inauguration fund*. Probable because it's was not an AI fund, and if it's not AI Microsoft ain't going to fund it.

Of the big tech companies Microsoft seem to be the exception. Google, Amazon, Meta and Apple CEOs** all attended and donated either personally as Tim Cook ($1 million) did or from the Company as Amazon ($1 million) did.

But I agree with your sentiment "Serves them right" and include Microsoft, there are plenty of other reasons, they are deserving.

* Well I have not seen Microsoft named in reports of doners, I assume they did not donate.

** Bezos is executive chairman of Amazon not CEO.

[CowHorseFrog]

Re: Serves them right

Amazing how people actually worry about minor details like what bullshit title Bezos does or doesnt have.

Look at the big picture, and dont worry about stupid labels.

[Hurn]

Encryption to the rescue?

Surely, any "operational data" sent to the cloud, should be encrypted, first, and then, decrypted, when accessed?

Yeah, it's a bit slower, and probably puts a bit more carbon into the atmosphere, but, isn't it already required by existing OpSec standards?

Now, this doesn't help if someone wants to "hold your data hostage". That's what "on prem" storage is for. (Or, multiple cloud providers, assuming they really are competing and not colluding.)

But, if the worry is "someone's reading over my shoulder", then good* encryption should help.

However, if the point of bailing is "I don't want these bastards making $ off of my data transfer/storage costs." then, by all means, bail. Just make sure you know the alternatives and their costs. ("on prem" is starting to look pretty good, again.)

* good = not worth the effort to crack until quantum powered crackers become affordable, say, around the same time fusion power becomes commercially viable (needed to power the digital<=>quantum interfaces without exacerbating man made global warming to the point where stockholder/voters get upset).

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Encryption to the rescue?

"Surely, any "operational data" sent to the cloud, should be encrypted, first, and then, decrypted, when accessed?"

I don't really understand "cloud" as well as I should. I can see the above working if "cloud" is just a storage mechanism, but how does that work when "cloud" is also the processing mechanism?

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Encryption to the rescue?

how does that work when "cloud" is also the processing mechanism?

It seems it is becoming feasible in terms of "the cloud" being the provider of a platform for an RDBMS. I found this paper https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/60876 which gives some indication. I don't know how routine it is in practice.

[Hurn]

Re: Encryption to the rescue?

> I can see the above working if "cloud" is just a storage mechanism, but how does that work when "cloud" is also the processing mechanism?

True, but, does anyone who uses "Compute, As A Service" Cloud based Virtual Machines really expect their data to remain secure?

While "pre-encrypted" / "post-decryped" data in Cloud based Storage at least has a chance of being secure for now (again, all bets are off in the near(?) future: "Snarf all encrypted data, now, decrypt it later, when affordable, and, hope the data is still relevant by then."), between all the known exploits involving "cross thread data exfiltration" and, especially the unpublished vulnerabilities, unless you have "exclusive access" (yeah, good luck with that - paying for it does not guarantee it), assume any working data is compromised.

If "operational data" translates to "data being operated on, in a Cloud Environment", then, I withdraw my original comment.

While encryption schemes do technically exist, between machine RAM and CPU, which are supposed to keep the data confined to authorized thread/cores, chances are, they're less effective than "data at rest" encryption/decryption, performed on prem (which, admittedly, has an expiration date coming up).

[Anonymous Coward]

Wake up call

By the time they are ready to exit the whole scenario will have gone away but maybe this is a wake up call about eggs in one basket?

Some of us have been warning for a decade about designing systems that can't be migrated quickly or have backup out of physical reach. It's not just IT to worry about it's bad government decisions and politics.

[harrys]

big cultural diff across the pond

It was more obvious a few decades ago

just got hidden by the "tech"

ask any peoples who have migrated between the two, in reality u share the language but each dont really fit in the others culture

the underlying values are distinct and different

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: big cultural diff across the pond

"u share the language" Barely I would suggest. The lexicon mostly, the syntax barely but the semantics and pragmatics don't appear to have anything in common.

I cannot imagine too many in Trumpisstan making much sense of the humour/satire of Yes [Prime] Minister and a US remake is too dreadful to contemplate based on Sanford and Son (Steptoe and Son), All in the Family (Till Death Do Us Part) and the Life on Mars remake was really quite ghastly.

"Two nations divided by a common language†" hardly covers it.

_{† usually attributed to Shaw}

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: big cultural diff across the pond

"The lexicon mostly"

Give or take a few orthographic problems.

[uncredited]

Trump? Really?

Fascinating how most are blaming Trump for this obvious spying and leaking of data when it has already been going on for a long time. Most companies have been willingly uploading their granular sales and behaviour data to companies like Google and Microsoft since the mid 2000s through Analytics, Office suites and BI tools, just to name a few examples. Lots of technical people along with privacy/security specialists have been warning about this for a long time and no one has listened.

If anything companies and governments should be thankful to the Trump administration for bringing this into light in a way that scares the excrement out of their collective rear ends.

[naive]

Re: Trump? Really?

It is really hilarious, ignoring Patriot and the CLOUD act, all the lemmings were, and are still, racing to give US Big Tech as much money it can spend.

Systems of European healthcare givers, banks or insurances ?..... No problem mate, put it in Azure, MS says it is safe, so it must be good.

Not Big Tech is to blame, it is the collective corruption or "I don't care" mentality that is wide spread among the elites, European government leaders were not putting up guidelines, because Big Tech is probably giving them slices of all this juicy data.

Another fun fact: If somewhere a trashcan was blown over by the wind in 2022-2024 time period, it was president Putin who got blamed, now it is president Trump.

At least tariffs bail out management of failing companies for the moment, they should be grateful to have something to hide their failed decisions.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Trump? Really?

"If anything companies and governments should be thankful to the Trump administration for bringing this into light in a way that scares the excrement out of their collective rear ends."

In the longer term a US cut down to size by Trump might be a better neighbour.

[Anonymous Coward]

Fashion!!! Cloud!!!

Quote: "...Kevin Cochrane...sovereign infrastructure..."

Yup....weasel words!! Define "sovereign"!!

Kevin clearly thinks that "sovereign" means something like "everything held within the borders of a single country"......

.....whereas some of us define "sovereign" like this: "everything held and managed on hardware MANAGED BY ME"!!!

.....ah.....so twentieth century.....the "company data centre".....and clearly coming back into fashion!!!!

.....and about time too!!!!

https://heuritech.com/articles/five-stages-of-fashion-trend-life-cycle/

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Fashion!!! Cloud!!!

I must admit, I read his use of "sovereign" to be a bit wider than the "national borders" definition, eg a companies data is also "sovereign" to it. I can see a market for "CoLo+" where you don't just rent space/capacity, but effectively buy the servers and storage and just rent the space and connectivity. How this extends to "instant on" capacity increases, I don't know, but I'm sure there must already be "secure cloud" service out there for those prepared to pay a bit extra. How that works economically against on-prem is for people on a higher pay grade than me to deal with though.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Fashion!!! Cloud!!!

"Sovereign" in this context necessarily means primarily under the control of the entity to which the data belongs.

[Ashto5]

HMG should already be doing this

The agreement where US companies promise with sugar on top to move our data to the US and really really really promise not to look at it.

Whoever signed that should hang their heads in shame.

EU data should be in the EU exclude Hungary

UK data should be in the UK

It really is that simple

[sketharaman]

American or European public cloud only changes who is in control. As long as data is in public cloud, control by oneself is a mirage. It's high time companies in Europe bit the bullet and repatriated all the way from cloud to onprem.

[Lepa-Vida]

This is the first time pages like this started to emerge https://www.goeuropean.org/

They would't be here is there wasn't some serious traffic behind.

[Doctor Syntax]

Don't you just hate crap sites that display nothing but a list of URLs without javascript being enabled. If they're not capable of saying what they need to say without that I doubt they have anything worth saying.

[MachDiamond]

"Don't you just hate crap sites that display nothing but a list of URLs without javascript being enabled. If they're not capable of saying what they need to say without that I doubt they have anything worth saying."

It's even worse if they purport to be a news site and their "stories" are just a load of xitts.

[Softsuits]

Prep for AI and Segmentation

This is a policy issue. You can't fund a Business to Business (BTB) environment. You need to walk, crawl then run. It would have to a model driven architecture and built collectively and openly. The EU should host the effort and create an RIPE / APNIC / ARIN type initative. Clouding is to big to be left to business. Really

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Prep for AI and Segmentation

Bingo!!!

[spireite]

Hard to escape if....

1. You've prepaid for x years... Hard to justify pissing away your upfront reserved instance to management

2. You used a tech unique to the platform. Used Glue?

There is a reason I try to use agnostic tech where possible.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Hard to escape if....

"There is a reason I try to use agnostic tech where possible."

A bunch of my headaches get caused by companies that tie themselves to Google APIs. Google makes a change one day and I have to suddenly tell my customers that I'm unable to provide a service as the company I use to provide that service is broken. If it were just an in-house issue with my vendor, they could do something (possibly) to make things work again, but they're just as in the dark as I am about when a fix can be made.

The same thing happens with companies that build web-applications that are browser specific and then at the next browser update, stuff gets broken. The fix would be to just tell staff to not update their browser, but with half or more people never having changed the default "keep my browser up to date" box checked, IT gets a boat load of calls one morning and has all sorts of fun getting everybody de-updated. Now, how much money was saved by basing a company-wide mission-critical piece of software on a particular browser?

[werdsmith]

Re: Hard to escape if....

Google don't make changes to API without notification and deprecation. Its possible to keep up with the changes.

[AnonContractor]

Your own tin wins - every time

I've never bought into this 'cloud' nonsense with it's confectionary of contracts.

Give me something I can touch.

I can trust that.

[fred_flinstone]

Nothing new here except the brazen actions of Trump & co

The reality is that the US gov has for decades regarded the content of any server owned by any American entity anywhere in the world as fair game.

The only thing that has changed is the current administration has been so blatant that even the most blinkered of decision makers are taking note.

Factor in a strong anti-America sentiment in the customer base and you have the motivation to jump ship.

And for anyone calculating whether their business can withstand the fallout until the next US election, bear in mind Trump was quite clear on the election trail ‘vote for him now and you never need to vote again’ which is as clear a signal as you need that Emperor Trump has no intention of ever giving up the throne. He has hinted at this in interviews in recent weeks as well. You have been warned…

[Grunchy]

Office 365

My alumni association abruptly changed to Microsoft 365 to administer the alumni email scheme. The VERY FIRST THING Microsoft did was to eliminate email forwarding, then to eliminate POP3/IMAP access for non-Microsoft clients, then renamed everyone’s old email addresses. MASSIVE cock-up.

Something peculiar happened, though. Whereas Microsoft disabled my original alumni address from receiving emails anymore, because of rampant security bugs I can still login to that address on their webmail facility, and moreover, can send daily mocking insults to the University IT dept that they cannot shut off, respond to, or do anything about.

(I presume I’ve been blacklisted with the auto-rubbish rules, but you know what, maybe not! I will spam them with daily insults until they ditch Microsoft. CAN YOU IMAGINE: a modern University, using Microsoft for any purpose! I find it shocking.)

[CowHorseFrog]

Maybe Euro and other global areas are leaving American Cloud providers, but they have still jumped onto the AI hype train created by the very providers they are trying to leave. Smart move, not.