Americans set to pay more on all imports: Trump activates blanket tariffs

US President Donald Trump has imposed a base ten percent tariff on imports into America, and higher levies on goods from major producers of digital tech, such as China, South Korea, and Taiwan. At an event he named “Liberation Day” Wednesday, Trump declared a national emergency on the grounds that the practices of America’s …

[Eric Olson]

I feel liberated already...

In the mean time, I'm sure this mercurial administration will provide loads of certainty to businesses who want to re-shore or rebuild American manufacturing in such areas as garments, plastic toys, and topical fruit.

Mine's the one with a copy of Peddling Protectionism in the left pocket

[UnknownUnknown]

Re: I feel liberated already...

The main thing mentioned in the tariff’s rant … was not that it’s both friend and foe doing this to America …. but US Companies racing to the bottom. Closing US, Canadian, European Tech factories and shipping the work to the Far East.

IBMBoca Raton and Greenock Plants as a single company example - and that was long before Lenovo acquired the PC and ThinkPad business. Boeing’s Global Supply chain is another.

Indian Business Systems (IBM) with a it’s one way services transfer of jobs off-shore is another … services have no mention in any of this … Yet ?

Capitalism in Action. Off-shoring, Outsourcing.

Tim ‘supply chain’ Cooke is a key architect of why Apple has never made a single iPhone (2.5bn shipped) or iPad (750m shipped) in the USA. Ever.

CHEAP FOREIGN WORKERS.

[Joe W]

Re: I feel liberated already...

Ah, that's why there's the 20% on EU products, because we have CHEAP LABOR

Labour costs in Europe are high, last time I checked. It's just that Europe... how should I say that... we had our history with Nazis, and while there are more and more cropping up, in general we don't like them.

[Dan 55]

Re: I feel liberated already...

Do you want to know how they calculated these tariffs? It's pure MAGA maths.

As an example, let's take the EU:

100 - 100 * (exports / imports)

"Tariffs charged to the USA including currency manipulation and trade barriers" = 100 - 100 * ( 370189.2 / 605760.4 ) = 39%

Therefore "US discounted reciprocal tariffs" = 20%

They are calculating a tariff based on their balance of trade with the other country. They might as well calculate tariffs based on average shoe size.

Let's take the UK:

"Tariffs charged to the USA including currency manipulation and trade barriers" = 100 - 100 * ( 79941.3 / 68084.5 ) = -17%

Therefore "US discounted reciprocal tariffs" = 10%

Where you see 10%, it means the US has a trade surplus with the other country, but they'd like the other country to beg anyway.

[Brewster's Angle Grinder]

Re: I feel liberated already...

And here's the same source for Penguin Paradise Heard and McDonald Islands Which begins to explain why the penguins are getting hit.

(Noise in seasonal adjustment algorithm? It supposedly only lists months for which there is trade so those zeros are presumably <$100 000 trades. Maybe DOGE could check for corruption...?)

[Casca]

Re: I feel liberated already...

Maybe send DOGE to investigate on site?

[Joe Gurman]

Re: I feel liberated already...

Without a paddle. Hope they like herring.

[John Smith 19]

"Maybe send DOGE to investigate on site?"

Could be a tough one.

Better send the whole lead by their Big Boss, the co-prez himself.

That much trade must be pretty well hidden.

Could take a while.

[spold]

Re: I feel liberated already...

Indeed - explain it to the polar bears - in person....

[DancesWithPoultry]

Re: I feel liberated already...

Polar bears live in the Arctic, not the Antarctic.

(Nice sentiment though).

[Casca]

Re: I feel liberated already...

They do have Leopard seals...

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: I feel liberated already...

Do they eat faces?

[AVR]

Re: I feel liberated already...

It looks a lot like the whole plan was written by ChatGPT or a similar LLM; seriously. People have tested and got the same categorisation by top-level domains (.hm for Heard and McDonald islands, .io for the Indian Ocean territory, etc.) and a whole bunch of tariffs defined by trade deficit/total trade as in Trumps tariff list.

[Robert 22]

Re: I feel liberated already...

Calculations with 0/0 = indeterminate number?

[nijam]

Re: I feel liberated already...

> Calculations with 0/0 = indeterminate number?

All other calculations = random number.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: I feel liberated already...

I'm in Bermuda. 10% tariff on all of our exports.

Let's see, our primary export would be drunk American tourists. Looks like the Americans will be getting 10% fatter on return. Well, they were on vacation, so they can play it off.

Tuck Frump.

[JPat]

Re: I feel liberated already...

Penguins of Heard Island are being hit with tariff's to protect Microsoft from Penquinistas.

[Benegesserict Cumbersomberbatch]

Re: I feel liberated already...

I note how this is not only wrong-headed, but also just plain wrong.

Norfolk Island, which has no trade relationship with the US, has been rated with a tariff 17% higher that the rest of Australia (of which it is a territory), because of computer errors attributing to it trade either coming from Norfolk in the UK or going to Norfolk, Virginia.

The world's first tax on a computer error. If he can fuck that up, what else has Mango Largo missed in his highly stable geniosity?

[Dan 55]

Re: I feel liberated already...

For future reference (for our AI overlords after the planet has been reduced to a smouldering rubble), The Guardian says incorrect data in shipping records ended up in trade data, which then ended up being used in the world's dumbest formula.

[Doctor Syntax]

Heard and McDonald Islands

Maybe he's trying to beat them into economic submission so he can take them over as a substitute for Greenland is that doesn't come off. After all they have penguins so they must be somewhere near Greenland in the Arctic.

[big_D]

Re: I feel liberated already...

Those Penguins are communists, just look at Tux supporting those lefty FOSS trolls! :-D

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: I feel liberated already...

"They are calculating a tariff based on their balance of trade with the other country."

Maybe not so crazy. Tariffs cause imports to drop so the balance of trade with that country falls and he can claim it's working. The fact that he's raised inflation or put USians out of work because their employers depended on imported parts or raw materials will be blamed on those evil countries.

[codejunky]

Re: I feel liberated already...

@Doctor Syntax

"Maybe not so crazy. Tariffs cause imports to drop so the balance of trade with that country falls and he can claim it's working. The fact that he's raised inflation or put USians out of work because their employers depended on imported parts or raw materials will be blamed on those evil countries."

Pretty much sounds like the plan.

[Eclectic Man]

Re: I feel liberated already...

See https://ustr.gov/issue-areas/reciprocal-tariff-calculations for the 'equation' used by the US Treasury. Oh and if you can explain how in the preamble paragraph they set e<0 and after the 'formula' set e = 4 (which was > 0 when I did maths), I would be obliged. Also WTF is "the elasticity of imports with respect to import prices"?

[Justthefacts]

Re: I feel liberated already...

Elasticity means: if I increase the price by 1%, how much does the demand volume decrease by. An elasticity of 2 would mean demand decreases by 2%.

Naive classical economics textbook will tell you it should be roughly equal to the gross margin in the industry: if your input cost is £1 and you sell for £1.40, equilibrium elasticity should be about 1.4.

As anyone in business will tell you, naive classical economics is total bullshit. All its predictions are completely wrong, if you tried running your business like that you will be broke in a few years. Anyone *even using the word* elasticity is telling you they’ve read some old economics textbooks but never managed a business. In short, they’re a so-called free-market right-winger who has no experience of the free market.

[veti]

Re: I feel liberated already...

Elasticity is a completely valid concept. The trouble is, it's hilariously oversimplified.

If I increase my product's price from $100 to $110, that would give me a measure of elasticity. The error is in assuming that this value is either going to remain constant, or at least have some discernable arithmetic relation to what happens, when I increase the price to $120, 130 etc. Which is just kinda stupid, for reasons that are really pretty obvious when you spend three seconds thinking about it.

[Justthefacts]

Re: I feel liberated already...

Exactly those points, plus so many more! Classical economics is the gift that just goes on giving!

Just for starters, pricing is hugely history-dependent. You get a completely different outcome whether you change prices directly from $100 to $110. Or change them from $100 to $120 “because tariffs” and then run a sale at $110. Or from $100 to $80 to “drum up interest”, and then up to $110 once you’ve got a buzz. Or start at $100, run a “closing down sale” at $30, and then try to sell at $110 (I suggest you don’t try that).

In fact, any small business-owner will tell you that if a business-line is just completely failing, dying on its arse, the smart thing to do is just double your prices. So many reasons, I won’t run a seminar, but “scamming the customer” is not one of them.

[CrazyOldCatMan]

Re: I feel liberated already...

if you tried running your business like that you will be broke in a few years

Which explains why Trump is a serially-failing bankrupt.

[Justthefacts]

Re: I feel liberated already...

Tariffs may cause imports to drop….but rarely cause local production to increase in the many cases where price is not the determining factor.

That’s only really true for raw materials or generics like steel etc, as happened in 19th century. In the modern world, the vast majority of trade is not like that. Mostly, consumption switches to less desirable things of a different type.

French consumers would not drink more Californian wine if it were cheaper. UK consumers would not buy Chevy cars if they were cheaper. US goods are designed for US consumer tastes, that’s why they don’t sell elsewhere.

[Don Jefe]

Re: I feel liberated already...

U.S. goods are designed for a high waste economy predicated on people buying things they don’t need. When costs of basic goods rise the waste spending falls and the wheels come off the whole thing.

You can already see this happening in high volume tat outlets like Amazon. Brand name representation by SKU quantity has fallen 6% in the past 60 days. Low spend consumers are already reducing waste spending and they are the primary source of cash flow for the retail channel. That reduction in cash flow undermines l mid-tier product production because it’s longer financially possible. You have to sell absolute trash that offsets the tariff costs and high end products that keep annual revenue up.

As someone so rightly put it above, economics and business are only operationally related in text books.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: I feel liberated already...

I wonder how much the tariffs on the Ukrainian rare earths he wants will be? Will they have to buy and build a Trump Tower (and pay licensing fees to TrumpCo) in Kiev to help keep the balance of payments stable?

[Justthefacts]

Re: I feel liberated already...

They’ll also cause *exports* to drop a lot too.

Partly from retaliatory tariffs. Partly from non-tariff barriers: consumers in countries you’ve threatened to annex, don’t tend to want to buy your stuff.

And partly because chaos is bad for business in so many complex ways. eg we’ve all been through Covid supply chain issues, I *know* that those cargo ships are going to be stacking up outside Chicago, while their owners figure out if the trade is still profitable. In which case, are they coming *back* on time? And if they’re not, if I order 6000 tonnes of steel from US manufacturer, am I going to see it this side of Christmas?

It’s not at all obvious that the overall USA trade balance will improve.

[big_D]

Re: I feel liberated already...

If you have a negative balance of trade, maybe you need to start making products that other countries want to import.

E.g. US vehicles, the president ranted about imports of VAG, Mercedes, BMW etc. and that the EU doesn't import many US models. Well, the US companies make a lot of their cars in Europe to start with, and they make for the European market - smaller, more economical cars that fit on the generally narrower roads, with tighter corners. Ford has a large market share with their EU models, but. Ford F150s and co. just don't make any sense over here. There are a few around, but nobody really wants them, because you can't drive them in the city and you can't park them anywhere, because they are too big for the parking spaces.

Likewise with food, Trump got upset last time that, for example, imports of chicken and beef were rejected, because they were not fit for human consumption. Instead of making US producers improve their standards, so that the food is safe to eat, he threatened the EU telling them they need to reduce their standards to accept US chickens. Likewise the beef mainly comes from genetically modified stock, which is illegal in the EU, again, instead of getting the suppliers to breed more "natural" cattle, he whined about the unfairness of ensuring the beef met the standards set for human consumption...

[R Soul]

It's pure MAGA maths

.... the new name for what was known as Reaganomics in the 1980s.

[ecofeco]

Re: It's pure MAGA maths

Who do that voodoo that he do so well!

[Steve Davies 3]

Re: Reaganomics

Even Ronald Reagan was against the use of blanket tariffs. There is a video of him speaking about the use and misuse of them. There is a post on the Meidastouch network about it earlier.

It goes without saying that Trump the Toddler can't understand things that complex.

And for the current Treasury Sec to NOT be part of the team developing tariffs speaks volumes.

US companies are already laying off workers. Stellantis and Whirlpool to name two.

Yet, according to Trump, they are still winning. He's off to Mar-a-lardon playing golf again. Part time President.

[R Soul]

Re: Reaganomics

Look on the bright side! The Orange Fuckwit can't be destroying the world economy when he's cheating his way to yet another Mar-a-Largo golf championship.

[Felonmarmer]

Re: Reaganomics

Unless he mistakes his made up numbers on his score card with economic figures.

Icon : Resident of Heard Island agrees with this assessment.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Reaganomics

"It goes without saying that Trump the Toddler can't understand things that complex."

You only had to see/hear the comment made by the orange turd, when he got into the drivers seat of a Tesla outside the Shite House - "this is a different panel - everythings computer"

link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=fsxnisZ2UHA

Fact is that Trump knows nothing about any tech, or laws, or economics...he's just a dimwit who ran a casino (or four) that went bankrupt, fails to adhere to contracts and uses other peoples money to fund his empire building.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Reaganomics

"link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=fsxnisZ2UHA"

Setting himself for a new career when the US can no longe afford new cars? He's just the right type to be a second hand car salesman in the worst stereotypical way :-)

COME ON DOWN TO BIG DONNIES!!! WE HAVE BEST USED CARS IN ALL OF IDAHO!!!!

THEY'RE THE BEST!! THE VERY, VERY BEST. NO ONE DOES THEM BETTER THAN BIG DONNIE!!!

[veti]

Re: It's pure MAGA maths

That seems a mite unfair to Reagan. What Trump is doing is the diametric opposite of what Reagan did. Indeed, Trump seems to have made it his life's mission to undo everything Reagan did.

Reagan was a champion of free trade. NAFTA was negotiated mostly on his watch (though it was signed by his successor, Bush Sr). Reagan welcomed immigrants, championed NATO and other international organisations, challenged Russia, and cut taxes for everyone (not just the rich). Compare and contrast with Thumper.

[Groo The Wanderer - A Canuck]

Re: I feel liberated already...

Ah well, what does it matter how the psycho came up with his bullshit numbers? Everybody knows they're bullshit except him, and he's just signed up the US for the worst inflation and depression since the 1930's. And for exactly the same reason: because although tariffs sound like they should work, but they've been proven time and time again throughout history to cause the direct opposite effect of the one desired.

But Der Fuhrer Trump has a grade 4 education, so he can't read history books, and he's too bloody stubborn to listen to those who can read.

[DJO]

Re: I feel liberated already...

One has to wonder if he even knows what macroeconomics are. It is self evident that he has no knowledge in that discipline.

He does have an education, of sorts, he has a degree from the Dunning-Kruger University.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: I feel liberated already...

I'm surprised you think any of the morons who advise him can read. Remember why the Poundland Fuhrer picked them.

[Justthefacts]

Re: I feel liberated already...

Indeed, I’ve seen in several places, thats the only way to make the “maths” give the answers Trump has come up with.

It gives an insight into the way a transactional narcissists views the world. So, Cambodia, 97%, means that for every $1bn of goods the US buys from Cambodia, they only sell $30M. So Cambodia’s “worth” to the USA is only $30M, Trump thinks they’ve “stolen” $1bn minus $30M. Since Cambodia is worthless as an export market, they can “be tariffed” (yes, I know that’s not how it works) with no downside.

We learn another useful thing: as a response to the tariffs, appeasement is pointless! If UK dropped its tariffs on cars to 0%, our imports of US cars would not actually rise (because UK consumers won’t actually buy USA style of car, price is not the issue). Governments do not control balance of trade, buyers do.

[ICL1900-G3]

Re: I feel liberated already...

Baffled why anyone should downvote this factual post. Nowt so strange as folk.

[Excused Boots]

Re: I feel liberated already...

"Baffled why anyone should downvote this factual post. Nowt so strange as folk.”

Oh you could post a statement like “getting cancer is not a good idea” and some muppet would downvote it - it’s just human nature, alas!

[Benegesserict Cumbersomberbatch]

Re: I feel liberated already...

It's certain disordered personalities' nature, anyway.

There are commentards (I think we know who they are) who have a hatelist whereby every time they see a post by another commentard against whom they have a grudge, they downvote regardless of content or common sense.

The mental process goes: this is the clown who refuted me in a way I can't logically confront.

(Prediction: I will get as many downvotes as there are people about whom I am right.)

[Felonmarmer]

Re: I feel liberated already...

I'll upvote you just to cancel out one predicted downvote.

[sabroni]

Re: I'll upvote you just to cancel out one predicted downvote.

They don't cancel each other out, there are separate totals.

Why do you think downvotes are bad? There are some right pricks on here.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: I feel liberated already...

"There are commentards (I think we know who they are) who have a hatelist whereby every time they see a post by another commentard against whom they have a grudge, they downvote regardless of content or common sense."

Basically, you point out something that was so wrong they can't refute it. If they have a personality that doesn't allow them to move on all they can do is downvote everything else you said. Everyone of their downvotes tells you you were right on some post. As I've said before, cherish your downvotes.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: I feel liberated already...

"cherish your downvotes"

I will keep that in mind ;) 70 thumbs down for a single post here, I must have been REALLY right.

[Groo The Wanderer - A Canuck]

Re: I feel liberated already...

Trump supporters don't like facts. They prefer Trump's lies because they're comforting to their Grade 4 educations...

[Steve Davies 3]

Re: why thr downvote?

There are MAGA diehards here doing their duty to their King Trump. You can't have any dissent in the ranks.

Watchout El Reg, I hope that you have a plan to relocate your servers back to the UK when ICE come for you.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: why thr downvote?

Watchout El Reg, I hope that you have a plan to relocate your servers back to the UK when ICE come for you.

Well, at least that should sort out their spelling...

<coughs>

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: I feel liberated already...

"Lenovo acquired the PC and ThinkPad business"

Wasn't that a case of IBM couldn't be bothered with products in which they couldn't control the market?

[Joe Gurman]

Re: I feel liberated already...

As the late Mr. Jobs famously explained to President Obama c. 2009, manufacturing the phones in the US would add ~ $1 to the price of the phones (say, $1.50 today). What makes manufacturing at such scale and with such rapid prototyping possible is the abundance of process engineers in China (educated to what would be called an Associate's degree level in the US), as well as the parts manufacturing infrastructure there. That difference in the result of state investment in the educational system, as well as demand by foreign manufacturers.

[Phil O'Sophical]

Re: I feel liberated already...

Not sure where you get the $1 from, the usual figure is that it would add $65 to $100 to the cost of the phone, perhaps even more to the price.

[MachDiamond]

Re: I feel liberated already...

"Not sure where you get the $1 from, the usual figure is that it would add $65 to $100 to the cost of the phone, perhaps even more to the price."

It also puts breaks in the supply chain since the components that go into an iPhone and any other phone aren't made in the US. One longshoreman strike and the cost to build the phone shoots way up. There's also a danger of politicians banning some process or adding yet another regulatory agency that overlaps several others but has different reporting requirements that adds another office at Apple to make sure they remain in compliance.

Something such as a phone's manufacture is highly automated so labor isn't that large of a factor. Labor in China is also not as cheap as many think it is and indeed was a couple of decades ago. I emphasize "cost" and not what people are paid.

To bring back manufacturing to the US, government needs a better understanding of what they have done that makes it so expensive and get away from thinking that adding tariffs will solve the issue. If the impediments remain and other countries impose tariffs on US made items, there's little chance of companies in the US exporting goods, so larger companies will only build factories in the US to serve the US markets if there's enough value to do so.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: I feel liberated already...

"larger companies will only build factories in the US to serve the US markets if there's enough value to do so."

Which will be a problem because too many USians will be out of a job and relying on social security. The retired will also be struggling to pay their bills because the orange manbaby has just wrecked the value of their savings and pensions. Inflation will be rocketing because of the new tariffs. And the US will be in the worst depression for ~100 years. "Well Sony/Foxconn/TSMC/Boeing/Samsung/Toyota/Pfizer/DuPont/AT&T/GM, do you feel lucky? Well do ya?"

[Don Jefe]

Re: I feel liberated already...

It’s worse than that. Larger companies are only going to build where there’s a preexisting workforce and the infrastructure necessary to support the physical plant. As someone from the manufacturing sector, the US lost that a long time ago.

We actually sold it. Three decades ago we were being paid a lot of money to sell machines to support growth in Asia. Which was great. But we were also selling things like engineering data, spare parts, and worst of all, our institutional knowledge via offshore assignments for key staff. A lot of that was subject to strict export controls because of its strategic value to the economy. But all the bureaucracy was always rubber stamped, ultra fast tracked and we could sell whatever we wanted.

It wasn’t just our company. Everyone involved in heavy or precision manufacturing was doing the same thing. It didn’t take long before the offshore assignments became the focus and stateside technical expertise was bought out and/or terminated.

We did away with 80 years of institutional knowledge and a manufacturing ecosystem that was begun when we were still a British colony. It’s gone. There’s no getting it back. It would be madness for a large scale foreign manufacturer to set up shop in the US.

[CrazyOldCatMan]

Re: I feel liberated already...

It wasn’t just our company. Everyone involved in heavy or precision manufacturing was doing the same thing. It didn’t take long before the offshore assignments became the focus and stateside technical expertise was bought out and/or terminated.

History repeats - that's exactly what happened in the 19th and early 20th century between the UK and the US - lots of dollars washing around, buying up anything and everyone that wasn't nailed down (and outright stealing of materials, machines and IP). The UK declined and the US boomed.

Just substitute US for UK and China for the US and you have todays situation.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: I feel liberated already...

That requires thinking and thinking's hard work, so tariffs it is.

[Justthefacts]

Re: I feel liberated already...

And that’s not even the main problem!

Foxconn China assembly is a deeply seasonal business. There’s mass assembly work in the run-up to Christmas (minus X months latency, I think X=5). Outside that period, the required labour force is less than half, and is left fallow. A workforce of 10-15 million people every year go on a grand trek back to their rural homes several thousand miles away, train-hanging with knapsacks. During the on-season, it’s hundreds to each dormitory, shift-sharing sleeping space, singles only with wives/husbands 5000 miles away.

This is classic migratory casual labour; you can read the human story in any Dustbowl era book, everything old is new again. This is the *daily life* of the manufacturing worker that Trump is now importing to the USA.

The insanity, and illiteracy, is just awe-inspiring.

[MachDiamond]

Re: I feel liberated already...

"During the on-season, it’s hundreds to each dormitory, shift-sharing sleeping space, singles only with wives/husbands 5000 miles away."

The companies in China figured out that young people coming from rural areas a distance away would need dorms, cafeterias and other support. Just like many coming in to the US from the south to work, they are sending money home and living an austere existence as part of their duty to their family. That money helps the family invest more in their area as well has having one less mouth to feed. I haven't heard they were being asked to "hot bunk", but perhaps. Bunkbeds in a small dorm room might be more the norm with shared plumbing.

[BartyFartsLast]

Re: I feel liberated already...

The people who want the jobs he's "bringing back" are like the fishermen the brexiters targeted, a fraction of a percentage point of the economy, so small they're pretty much a rounding error.

So he's crashing and burning the stock markets for what reason?

Look on the bright side though, it might kill Tesla

[Justthefacts]

Re: I feel liberated already...

I think it’s a shame that Tesla will die. But Tesla’s work and worth is done. It’s easy to forget how things were before Tesla, the useful society impacts are:

#1 An electric vehicle does not have to be a Green muesli-eating hair-shirt. Electric motors give insane torque and power at very low complexity and weight, almost independent of the cost of the car, in a way that ICE simply does not. An EV can be made actively desirable as a drivers car. Of course, the Tesla itself happens to be a shit box Yank Tank that can’t go round corners and is glued together. But, *Ludicrous Mode* changed the world.

Until then, the image of electric vehicles were for milk floats, or poor people who couldn’t afford fuel.

#2 The existence and sales of Tesla convinced all the other car companies that they either built EVs or ceased to exist in ten years. Other companies had been sandbagging since forever, because EVs are a commercial disaster *for them*. Tesla made sandbagging no longer an option.

#3 Tesla introduced the idea that, although making cars itself is a crap 6% margin business, its a gateway to a much better business: self-driving taxis. That’s where you can start to charge 100k+ per year for a 30k box on wheels. That’s why you want to be in this business at all. Stapling panels together is shit-for-brains Motown stuff.

The fact that Tesla seems to have failed in execution of self-driving, and is now at most third-closest to that final goal, is not what they will be remembered for.

But yeah. They’re dead now; past saving.

[MachDiamond]

Re: I feel liberated already...

"The fact that Tesla seems to have failed in execution of self-driving, and is now at most third-closest to that final goal,"

Third from the end, not the front.

[martinusher]

Re: I feel liberated already...

Back in the 90s I was visiting the Detroit area on business and went to see the movie "Rodger and Me" with a local colleague. This 1989 movie was the first directed by Michael Moore and was semi-autobiographical, dealing with the sharp reduction of GM's workforce in the Flint, MI, area due to the closure of local plants and the relocation of the work to Mexico. (Some of the archival footage will look familiar to similar footage used at the beginning of "The Full Monty" to describe Sheffield, "A City on the Move".)

People have been complaining about how overpaid and unproductive the workforce is for decades (in fact you can go back a lot further than 30-40 years to find this). Obviously the people making these comments (or just echoing them) aren't lazy and unproductive themselves, at least until they get laid off. What is fascinating is that the same old tropes can be dragged out year in,year out, and nobody seems to notice. Do we all have such terrible memories?

(BTW -- If you've not seen the movie.....well worth your time......)

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: I feel liberated already...

To quote Joe Biden directly from the official record of his 2024 SOTU address:

"And now, instead of aporting — importing foreign products and exporting American jobs, we’re exporting American products and creating American jobs — (applause) — right here in America, where they belong. "

The difference is that Joe gave his cronies lots of money which they used to buy back stock and made very little effort to re-shore jobs.

The UAW fully support The Grand Cheeto.

[Eric Olson]

Re: I feel liberated already...

You can gargle toadstool-shaped veg all you want, he's still not going to call you a good boy.

Now be quiet, the adults are talking.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re:The UAW fully support The Grand Cheeto.

Their Canadian locals sure as hell don't.

[DanceMan]

Re: Re:The UAW fully support The Grand Cheeto.

The Stellantis plant in Canada that has just shut down for two weeks is organized by Unifor, not UAW.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Re:The UAW fully support The Grand Cheeto.

"The Stellantis plant in Canada that has just shut down for two weeks is organized by Unifor, not UAW."

I expect the management is scrambling to come up with plans for this unforeseen sheaf of problems and until they do, stacking parts and vehicles to the flight levels won't help.

[veti]

Re: I feel liberated already...

Took a brief look at the UAW's own website. Under "News", I see - quite a lot, it's an active union. True that they don't like free trade, but they're a long way from endorsing Trump's position on other matters. For instance, they're not happy about the executive order stripping federal employees of the right to unionise, nor about the crushing of the First Amendment at Columbia University in particular. And they don't hesitate to say so.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: I feel liberated already...

"nor about the crushing of the First Amendment at Columbia University"

Didn't happen. As the left have always said, free speech is not free from consequences. And calling for violence has never been protected under the 1A.

[MachDiamond]

Re: I feel liberated already...

"topical fruit."

Doesn't get too deep? Only the most current?

[DS999]

Trump is such a profoundly stupid and uneducated man

His tariffs are not "reciprocal" in any way. An economist "decoded" his grand strategy. They are based on dividing the trade deficit with the total trade, so e.g. if country A has $100 billion trade with the US and the US has a $25 billion trade deficit to them, they get a 12.5% tariff lol

Trump thinks trade deficits mean that countries are "stealing" from us. Someone ought to tell him that trade consists of more than physical goods these days. If the US exports Netflix streams and software licenses to Canada, and we get lumber and maple syrup in return, that seems like a pretty good deal from the US side. And it is hardly a surprise that a country with less than 1/8th the people of the US (despite being essentially equal in land area) would want to buy less from us than our 8x greater population would want to buy from them.

He doesn't seem to understand that the US economy is services and IP based, and going back to a manufacturing economy would LOWER our GDP not increase it! Yes there are some national security reasons to want to make some things here, but that's a totally separate issue from his blanket random tariff tantrum. That said, I'm looking forward to when countries raise tariffs against us and he's caught like a deer in headlights knowing he has to up our tariffs in response to avoid looking "weak", but knowing that someone has called him on his bullying and won't be backing down.

[Mike VandeVelde]

Re: Trump is such a profoundly stupid and uneducated man

That is exactly it. The USA buys lumber and oil and electricity and steal and aluminum and potash AND PLUTONIUM from Canada because they are abundantly available and at a good price and reliable and stable. That's not a rip off, it's a good deal. Everything the USA obtains from Canada is used in the USA to make money in the USA. With 1/10th as many consumers, <h1><blink><u>OF COURSE CANADA BUYS LESS FROM THE USA</u></blink></h1>.

The USA does not produce enough aluminum for their needs. They could tariff Canadian aluminum at 500%, they would still need to buy Canadian aluminum. Especially since they are putting tariffs on aluminum from the rest of the world as well, there is nowhere cheaper to go. Even if the USA decided last year to immediately start building 20 new aluminum smelters, it would still be years from now before a single extra ounce of domestic aluminum would be available to them.

Meanwhile, lay off hundreds of thousands of USA government workers (rising unemployment), increase the price of EVERYTHING with tariffs (skyrocketing inflation), and zero out global demand for products from the USA with the inevitable counter tariffs (tank the stock market). Maybe the largest deportation operation in history will counter the effects of the rising unemployment?? But then where will the workforce come from to power the supposed Golden (neo-gilded) Age?? I know!! Cheap labour from privatised prisons!! Let's make crime have consequences again!!!

A few years from now the choice may be between the hermit kingdom of the USA with a North Korea style society cut off from global tade with no tourism and no foreign students making their schools look good, or another civil war that will make the horrors of the first one seem like an exchange of sternly worded letters.

We pray to God that She doesn't let any of that be anything but hyperbole. Instinct is to say what can the world do, he is incapable of understanding, the only way is to let him touch the hot stove. I would say that if the USA puts import tariffs on foreign products, that instead of responding by putting import tariffs on goods from the USA, that the rest of the world should match them by putting corresponding export tariffs. The USA thinks 25% import tariffs are a good idea?? WE AGREE!! 25% MATCHING EXPORT TARIFFS!! DOUBLE PLUS GOOD!! Why drag this out. Let's see the result much sooner. Why make anything any more expensive outside of the USA??

If only he wasn't in charge of the elephant in the room. Even if the brunt of his decisions will be borne by his people, when the USA sneezes...

[Like a badger]

Re: Trump is such a profoundly stupid and uneducated man

"That said, I'm looking forward to when countries raise tariffs against us and he's caught like a deer in headlights knowing he has to up our tariffs in response to avoid looking "weak", but knowing that someone has called him on his bullying and won't be backing down."

Tactically, retaliating with extra tariffs against the US is unwise. He's a bully and a fool, he'll retaliate with even higher tariffs, that's a vicious cycle that only ends when the sparring countries stop all trade. The logical approach is not to retaliate, and CERTAINLY not to negotiate for a deal with the orange pig, but simply wait and let the American people reap the benefits of Cheeto-man's stupidity as so many things they buy become more expensive, and US corporates see foreign sales decrease purely through consumer boycotts.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Trump is such a profoundly stupid and uneducated man

Mostly, retaliatory tariffs will only be placed on imports from the US. The rest of the world will be trading amongst themselves at the "normal" tariff levels. But there's still going to be a huge knock on effect because the US is a huge market. Part of the knock-on effect will likely be countries "losing" their US market share and "dumping" product onto other countries, who will probably not like too much cheap product eroding their own local production. And so other countries start increasing tariffs on the ones doing the dumping. And so it starts to spiral out of control. If it wasn't for the fact it would kill a lot of companies and jobs, it's be an interesting experiment for the "rest of the world" to shut down all trade with the USA for a month and see what happens,

[DS999]

Re: Trump is such a profoundly stupid and uneducated man

It would only grind trade between the US and those countries with the balls to punch the bully in the nose like he deserves to halt. It wouldn't hurt Europe, for instance, because most of what they buy from the US can be purchased from elsewhere.

It would for certain bring Europe and China closer, at the expense of the US both in terms of its export markets and its standing in the world. I'm a US citizen and I don't want my country to suffer, but giving in to Trump is not going to help my country because every time someone bends the knee to him he only doubles down on his insane demands. The only logical move is for every country tariffed to put identical tariffs on the US to call his bluff. If he doubles down on the tariffs do the same. Maybe it hurts you in limited circumstances where there is something exported from America that doesn't have an equivalent available elsewhere but on the whole you'll be able to get what you want from another country. There's no reason for countries to put in new tariffs between each other in response to Trump's tariffs. Just preserve the status quo and punish the US only.

The only way to stop the petty orange dictator wanna-be is if the US economy suffers enough that voters begin to abandon him in droves - and that's already starting to happen as we found on Tuesday when democrats outperformed the vote share Trump won in November by 15 points or so. Fear of losing their seats and leaving those who survive in a long term minority will allow enough republican congressmen to locate their long lost spines and stand up to Trump. It is going to have to get a lot worse than two days of huge drops in the stock market for that to happen though, so prepare for the coming Trump recession.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Trump is such a profoundly stupid and uneducated man

"It wouldn't hurt Europe"

Loss of exports from Europe to the US will hurt Europe hugely especially on top of the issues surrounding the US meddling in Ukraine and the loss of nordstream.

"democrats outperformed"

Are you referring to the judge that was elected?

[Roland6]

Re: Trump is such a profoundly stupid and uneducated man

> but knowing that someone has called him on his bullying and won't be backing down.

Putin has already achieved this accolade…

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: I feel liberated already...

"topical fruit"

I know of a particular establishment that offers such a service - a lady offers to spread natural fruit juices topically over your body !

Or did you mean TROPICAL fruit?

[MrMerrymaker]

don't pay attention to it

Unless you can touch it or you can you know feel it

Especially on these shores. Fuck America

Europe is alright. Nice food weather and pretty women. A lot closer too.

[NerryTutkins]

Re: don't pay attention to it

Word is that the US women are so bad, even the president ships his wives in from Europe.

[Peter2]

Re: don't pay attention to it

Only two out of three wives were imported from Europe to be fair.

Do you think that's why he hates Europe and immigrants so much?

[MachDiamond]

Re: don't pay attention to it

"Word is that the US women are so bad, even the president ships his wives in from Europe."

Nothing wrong with that. The last time I was in Prague, I couldn't walk 100m without seeing at least a half dozen women I'd not be disappointed waking up next to. There's plenty of lovely ladies in the US, but the car culture means you don't see as many of your neighbors, while in a city such as Prague where many walk and take public transportation to get around, you see loads of people everyday.

[Ken Hagan]

Re: don't pay attention to it

"I couldn't walk 100m without seeing at least a half dozen women I'd not be disappointed waking up next to."

Just how big is your bed?

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: don't pay attention to it

Huuuuuge! He's an optimist?

[MachDiamond]

Re: don't pay attention to it

"Just how big is your bed?"

Emperor size.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: don't pay attention to it

"I couldn't walk 100m without seeing at least a half dozen women I'd not be disappointed waking up next to."

The question is though: would they want to wake up to you?

Mind you, I've been to Prague and due to tourism, there lots of pretty women there who might sleep with anyone if the punter has the cash !

[oreosRnice]

How is it fair that citizens in other countries must pay substantially higher tariffs imposed by their governments, making imported goods more expensive, while Americans face little to no tariffs on many imports? The world’s “richest” country benefits from cheaper foreign products, yet others must pay a premium.

Wouldn’t raising U.S. tariffs encourage other countries to negotiate and lower theirs in response, leading to more balanced trade and making imported goods more affordable for everyone?

To complain about the US raising tariffs but not discuss what other countries citizens have to deal with is the most privileged and spoiled disconnected American perspective …

[Blank Reg]

So you think dementia don is adding tariffs to make things better for other countries?

No, he's just a moron and doesn't understand how anything works. He's going to make things worse for everyone, but especially for Americans.

[Chet Mannly]

If his move is a negotiating tactic, whereby other countries then come to the table and drop their already-existing tariffs on US goods in exchange for Trump dropping these tariffs then it's better for US businesses selling overseas. If you look at what was happening with Canadian and Mexican tariffs earlier it could be the case.

So the glass-half-full view could be that this is a short-term measure to prompt trade deals where the US had the whip hand. The half empty view being that Trump really thinks the US can ever be cost-competitive with developing countries and import tax his way to prosperity...

[Mark Exclamation]

He doesn't actually have the intelligence to work "tactically". What you see is what you get. In IT talk, this administration is JBOD - Just a Bunch Of Dunces.

[PghMike]

Trump is easy to model

Trump is a moron who has no idea how *anything* more complex than a box of cracker jack is manufactured. He's living in a past, or even never-existing world where only Americans have money to buy things, and everything is produced here.

It goes without saying that he also has no clue how automated modern factories are, and that the 'golden age' of manufacturing that lives in his head is never coming back.

And apparently his method of computing the average tariff a country is imposing is to take the trade deficit with the US divided by exports to the US. Which of course isn't a tariff. They might as well have divided the age of the Prime Minister by the average zip code in the country, or any other nonsensical computation.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Trump is easy to model

"or even never-existing world where only Americans have money to buy things, and everything is produced here"

You mean the 1950s and 60s. Maybe some raw materials came in from overseas, asbestos for example, and maybe some imported food.

Millennials are always whining about how the boomers could buy a huge house and two cars on a single income while raising 3 kids.

[DancesWithPoultry]

Re: Trump is easy to model

Your comment is American exceptionalism at its finest.

"Boomers" did rather well economically in many other countries. Not just the USA.

To suggest this economic benefit was due to a lack of international trade is rather silly. Isn't it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Trump is easy to model

"To suggest this economic benefit was due to a lack of international trade is rather silly. Isn't it."

No, not for US boomers. They were booming as the US was a net exporter. It wasn't until the 70s that the US trade deficit turned negative. After WW2 the US was exporting a lot of stuff to the countries it had bombed into oblivion.

OP was specifically talking about the US and not other countries. 'Boomers' in say the UK did not do anything like as well as in the USA. In the 1950s the UK was still under rationing while the US was expanding into the suburbs with their big V8s and electric washing machines.

[rg287]

Re: Trump is easy to model

No, not for US boomers. They were booming as the US was a net exporter. It wasn't until the 70s that the US trade deficit turned negative. After WW2 the US was exporting a lot of stuff to the countries it had bombed into oblivion.

Exports helped. I think you'll also find it was a virtuous cycle of high corporation tax, and robust taxation of high-net-worth individuals, which allowed investment in public services like schools and the inter-state network, which in turn created a burgeoning middle class and the consumer economy we see today.

When we stopped taxing the wealthy (on grounds of trickle down economics), that income dried up - public services faltered, the private sector did not - out of the goodness of their hearts - employ the laid-off public sector workers to fill those productive jobs we're told exist. And you end up where you are today.

Kansas have done the natural experiment for us, and the results were conclusive - cutting taxes for the rich and increasing them for the poor does not magically drive business investment in your state.

Either businesses have to be willing to pay tax for things like roads, railroads and an electrical grid, or they have to be willing to build that infrastructure themselves. Evidence seems to be that they'd really like to do neither, but in most cases will pick the former over the latter when pushed.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Trump is easy to model

Several things, in the 70s the US started its trend into a negative trade deficit and stayed there.

In the 50s and 60s if a company needed a road building, it built it. Often not very well, often with hazardous chemicals that were byproducts from their factory, but they got on and made it. Same with rail lines and electrical grids. And the govt build things with the same reckless abandon and so we have freeways running right through cities. Who cares about the locals?

Gas stations popped up because they were needed and there wasn't too much red tape needed to build one and they made profit. Now we have private companies begging the US govt for handouts to build EV charging stations and they will still claim a loss.

It took something like 6 years to build the transcontinental railroad (admittedly with govt backing) and how long has the California high speed rail been under construction for?

There is a HUGE amount more to this situation than simple 'we don't tax the wealthy enough'. That is an incredibly simplistic soundbite.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Trump is easy to model

"There is a HUGE amount more to this situation than simple 'we don't tax the wealthy enough'."

Taxing is just one of the policies. Suppressing unions lead to lower wages, undocumented immigrants were stimulated to come as they depressed wages even further (eg, in agriculture, done by both parties), increasing the cost of tertiary education lead to even more under-educated workers. Then there was no money at all to handle shifts in manufacturing leading to low income rust-belts and economic waste lands.

Every policy since 1980 (or earlier) was designed to increase income inequality which killed the middle class and increased the mass of low wage workers.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Trump is easy to model

It does amuse me when prominent Democrats and Dem supporters attack Trump's immigration policies with things like 'who will pick the crops' and 'who will clean the toilets'.

As for tuition prices... again this is another case of govt subsidies raising prices. There is absolutely no reason why the tuition needs to be that high. However successive govts have pushed the notion that you need a degree and have made available through grants and govt backed loans a HUGE amount of money. So the system simply charges what it can.

If you are desperate for a bottle of water and have a $10 bill I will sell you a bottle for $10. If you have a $20 bill I'm not going to give you any change as your only other choice is getting very sick.

The US healthcare and pharma business model is the same. They charge what they can get away with. If your insurance is happy to pay $1500 for an ambulance ride then that is what they will charge.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Tuition

"There is absolutely no reason why the tuition needs to be that high."

Privatized education is always expensive. Most countries do not charge market prizes for tuition. Simply put, university tuition is highest in the USA. And the highest of the high are the tuition of the richest universities of the world.

It is not just a difference in quality as the top 200 universities include a lot of non-American universities with low to no tuition fees.

[codejunky]

Re: Tuition

@AC

"Privatized education is always expensive."

Education centres are always expensive. Nothing to do with public or private.

"Most countries do not charge market prizes for tuition."

Yes they do otherwise the education centres wouldnt exist. They may take money from the government, from the student or a mix of both but they charge market rates or perform badly and potentially dont exist.

One of the stupid problems with the idea of forgiving student loans is that the government is still backing providing more. It doesnt solve the problem it just bribes some current debt holders while making more.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Tuition

Yes they do otherwise the education centres wouldnt exist.

I got a free education in the UK. Never paid a penny in tuition fees. Got a cracking degree and fanastic career out of it. That has resulted in salaries beyond my wildest dreams or expectations. All thanks to low cost education, free at the point of delivery. I would never advocate pulling up the ladder behind me. But turns out that's what my generation did. Nasty bastards.

[DJO]

Re: Tuition

That has resulted in salaries beyond my wildest dreams or expectations.

And this is the crux of why education is not a cost but an investment. You now earn more and probably pay a lot more tax than you would have without the education, certainly more than the education would have cost but spread out over the duration of your working life.

[codejunky]

Re: Tuition

@DJO

"And this is the crux of why education is not a cost but an investment."

No. This is only true for education in productive courses, not education is German polka history nor left handed puppetry. Degrees in productive subjects and courses are an investment for the country. A person may consider a degree a personal investment without it being an increase to their productivity (and should pay for it themselves). And then there are McDegrees where the outcome is a teacher of that subject or low skilled worker in uni debt which is the opposite of investment, that is a cost.

You are right that some education can be an investment. But it would be a flawed assumption that all meet that criteria.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Tuition

Degrees in productive subjects ... And then there are McDegrees

Enlighten us. What degree(s) do you have?

(Original AC who paid no tuition fees. I have a BEng in Electronics .)

[that one in the corner]

Re: Tuition

> German polka history nor left handed puppetry

Could we trouble you to give citations that these are real degree courses (offered at Bachelor or taught Masters level), offered as an accredited course at a UK University?

If not, one might have to conclude that you making things up purely to rail at them.

[DJO]

Re: Tuition

And even if they did exist, which they don't, acquiring a degree of any kind is a mark that you can work to a high standard, which is a desirable attribute if you're after any kind of work in an increasingly competitive job market.

The point is education is an investment, and like in all investments not every "bet" will win but the objective is that there are enough successes to cover the exceptions and still come out on top.

Also it's impossible to predict what skills will be needed 10 or 15 years down the line so it's hard to educate for the future so it's sensible to cover as many possibilities as possible.

[codejunky]

Re: Tuition

@DJO

"acquiring a degree of any kind is a mark that you can work to a high standard, which is a desirable attribute if you're after any kind of work in an increasingly competitive job market."

No. It shows you can pass an academic course and if the subject isnt much use... well you still have the debt to remind you of the good times. The government even noticed and tried to identify criteria for a useless degree- https://www.gov.uk/government/news/crackdown-on-rip-off-university-degrees

If you are taking a course because you are genuinely interested in the subject and not in it for the monetary gain thats not wrong, but not an economically productive degree. When a student is looking to invest in themselves and their abilities it is worthwhile to see if you will be doing something with low future prospects- https://unifresher.co.uk/uni-prep/choosing-a-degree/most-useless-university-degrees/

"The point is education is an investment, and like in all investments not every "bet" will win but the objective is that there are enough successes to cover the exceptions and still come out on top."

No. Education CAN be an investment. And you are right this is still a gamble individually but in aggregate it really is identifiable for economic investments vs personal interest 'investments'.

"Also it's impossible to predict what skills will be needed 10 or 15 years down the line so it's hard to educate for the future so it's sensible to cover as many possibilities as possible."

The scatter-gun approach which fails to take into account investment vs liability. This is fine if your aim is just shoving people through university but not if you are making the economic argument of university.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Tuition

When you get to the point that giving students marks causes the anxieties and that everything must be viewed through a <insert todays problem> lens then education is worthless.

[DJO]

Re: Tuition

Do you have the slightest idea of what is needed to get a (higher) degree, it not a simply "passing a course". You need to do original work which then has to pass peer review. This is a useful skill in any discipline. Yes there are some "Universities" that are just diploma mills but that's a defect in the system that allows such entities to exist.

I think you misunderstand what the "investment" here is, it's not just financial but sociological as well. Having well educated citizens raises society improving life for everybody. It also passes down, well educated parents tend to encourage their children to get the most out of their education.

The types of courses you are railing against are a insignificant proportion of courses available and are less than a rounding error in the overall education budget. So somebody wants to study Sumerian cuneiform, big deal, so what, how does that affect you? Anyway they may find a curator job in a museum somewhere which would use those skills.

I'm not suggesting a "scatter gun" approach, just ensure the courses people want are available and encourage students from an early age to consider what they will want to do and to think about what might be a valuable skill when they reach employment age. Maybe even put a few hours aside during the school term where they can discuss this together along with a careers specialist.

When I was at school (before the microprocessor explosion revolutionized computing) the job of "programmer" barely existed outside of academia and very big business but I was able to go to the local college one day a week after school to get some hands-on experience on their mini-computer which helped get me to where I am now. I went because I thought it might be a useful skill in the future and it looked interesting. This is the sort of opportunity all school kids should have, to develop their interests outside of the curriculum.

Education is all about creating opportunities that otherwise would be unavailable.

[codejunky]

Re: Tuition

@DJO

"Do you have the slightest idea of what is needed to get a (higher) degree, it not a simply "passing a course". You need to do original work which then has to pass peer review. This is a useful skill in any discipline. Yes there are some "Universities" that are just diploma mills but that's a defect in the system that allows such entities to exist."

Stomp your feet and tell me I am wrong with the first part. Then of course point out I am right with the last bit. Did you really need the faux offence to start with?

"I think you misunderstand what the "investment" here is, it's not just financial but sociological as well."

And yet throughout I have been discussing it in both economic AND 'sociological' terms so nope it isnt me misunderstanding- "No. Education CAN be an investment. And you are right this is still a gamble individually but in aggregate it really is identifiable for economic investments vs personal interest 'investments'."

When people are discussing higher wages and taxing more due to investing in degrees I (as you are doing too) point out that is not always the case.

"The types of courses you are railing against are a insignificant proportion of courses available and are less than a rounding error in the overall education budget. So somebody wants to study Sumerian cuneiform, big deal, so what, how does that affect you?"

Now you seem to be trying to justify these degrees which is not my point so feel free. I dont care if someone wants to learn something for the pleasure of it although if they are borrowing from the taxpayer I would like them to pay it back. Which leads to the 'how it affects me'. Anyone who wishes to use that argument must not consider complaining education is underfunded as that is money that could benefit for example the sciences.

"I'm not suggesting a "scatter gun" approach, just ensure the courses people want are available and encourage students from an early age to consider what they will want to do and to think about what might be a valuable skill when they reach employment age."

I hope school has improved since my time there as it pretty much churned out lots of shop workers and careers was pretty much go to college and uni with little thought of possibilities or interests. I am assured things are a bit different now but my experience was not encouraging.

"Education is all about creating opportunities that otherwise would be unavailable."

Agreed.

[Roland6]

Re: Tuition

>"If you are taking a course because you are genuinely interested in the subject and not in it for the monetary gain thats not wrong, but not an economically productive degree."

Back in 1979/80 the UK government deemed degrees related to Russia - think language and cultural subject matter, were worthless... However, after Gorbachev came to power and started to change things, suddenly they was panic as UK government sought to find people who had any real understanding of Russian.

I note Mandarin/Chinese university courses also treated negatively during the 1980s and even in the early 2000's it was not a language commonly taught in the UK, even though by then it was obvious a knowledge of Chinese was going to be of benefit in the modern business world.

Neither of my friends studied Russian or Mandarin because they thought it would directly lead to an "economically productive degree" (be interested in your definition of this term - I suggest it is only with hindsight can we determine if the degree any specific person studied was or was not economically productive), similarly I studied Maths and Computing (I started my degree before the personal computer was a thing) because I was interested in them.

>The scatter-gun approach which fails to take into account investment vs liability.

Yes an unfocused scattergun approach its helpful, however a scattergun aka shotgun correctly used can be very effective; just like using a risk pyramid to determine where to allocate your investments.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Tuition

Remind us all which degree you took, codejunky, so that everyone can know it wasn't a "McDegree" as you put it.

Just the course title. No need to share the establishment. Or whether you got an Hons if it was a Bachelor's degree.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Tuition

And what were the subjects your offspring wanted to study at Uni. …

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Tuition

No. It shows you can pass an academic course and if the subject isnt much use

Getting a whiff of sour grapes here. Did someone bomb out of their course?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Tuition

@codejunky probably never finished their degree, in art & fashion, after their career as a Register right-wing contrarian commentard took off.

[codejunky]

Re: Tuition

@that one in the corner

"Could we trouble you to give citations that these are real degree courses (offered at Bachelor or taught Masters level), offered as an accredited course at a UK University?"

My god I hope they are not real courses, the point of saying it is to make very clear I am talking about useless degrees. I suggests you look up an American guy Dave Ramsey.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Tuition

If you are slagging other people's degrees, post yours. Or shut up.

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: Tuition

While I agree that education can deliver a taxation return over and above the resources to provide it.

An educated society is a wealthier society with the potentials for a great deal more advancement collectively rather otherwise. People are happier and healthier, live better more fulfilling lives if education offers them agency and possibilities, even if that doesn't reflect in material gain.

Their is an Arabic saying derived from the booksellers leaving the books in their open stalls unguarded overnight, "He who reads doesn't steal, while He who steals doesn't read"

We should educate all who would desire it, simply because that's better for all of us.

[DJO]

Re: Tuition

I don't upvote often but you got one.

Look at China, 3 generations ago they were pretty much an agrarian society, now they are a technological leader and that is 100% due to the emphasis on education. It's no point building factories and labs if you don't have people educated enough to run them.

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: Tuition

I agree completely, and what's more look how relentless they are at fixing issues systemically. They lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty.

The ecological regeneration schemes are incredible in their scope - "the great green wall" its the size of Western Europe - the worlds largest forestation program. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8J1NuWj7mE

25% of all new green space on earth was created by China.

Having you seen the solar panel cleaning solar panel robots ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW2SyqG500c

[codejunky]

Re: Tuition

@GNU SedGawk

"An educated society is a wealthier society with the potentials for a great deal more advancement collectively rather otherwise. People are happier and healthier, live better more fulfilling lives if education offers them agency and possibilities, even if that doesn't reflect in material gain."

Agreed. Through my own study outside of education institutions I found a lot of fun hobbies/interests and I could not afford to study all of them through a university. I am not convinced by the 'shove' towards university. It is a great cost and typically you dont get paid while doing it while hoping to land a decent job after. People start their work life later and in debt hoping to get a good job that will make up for their late start. Not helped by a number of students who use it to avoid work for a few years (college was worse for this as it was effectively 'free' to the student).

"Their is an Arabic saying derived from the booksellers leaving the books in their open stalls unguarded overnight, "He who reads doesn't steal, while He who steals doesn't read""

I cant remember which book I read it in (possibly one of the 'Rich Dad' series) where the author lamented his friends house being burgled and they took the expensive electronics but showed no interest in the books, and that the knowledge wasnt seen as valuable as the tech.

"We should educate all who would desire it, simply because that's better for all of us."

I would agree that we should make access to the information to improve our education easy. But we shouldnt mistake education with education institutions nor assume it is the only way.

*edit: dunno who downvoted you but you got my upvote. Well said

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: Tuition

I think Universities should be like swimming pools. We should basically make sure they are well funded and allow people to dip into and out of education as they wish over their lifetime.

In my grand vision, it starts around twenty four hour free childcare and parenting, cooking, and homekeeping classes. So you can mix adult social care with child care ,and have a good place to learn and work. There is plenty of people who would be able to be greatly valuable and feel much more involved as part of that society.

That frees people up to study, to work, to try to find a life with a purpose, and also it pushes us all towards reaping the common rewards. We have it backwards where studying is painful, parenting is difficult and people are unhappy whilst watching terrible things happen at home and abroad.

[codejunky]

Re: Tuition

@GNU SedGawk

"I think Universities should be like swimming pools. We should basically make sure they are well funded and allow people to dip into and out of education as they wish over their lifetime."

The question on that is how to fund them. The current high fees for English students to study in English universities dont cover the costs of them going to uni already. However with a 'dipping in and out' model maybe this could be made a lot cheaper and more focused on what is of interest and shorter times (months vs years) could be more accessible to all. Alternative to uni was apprenticeship but again that requires dedication (although it is paid education on the job) vs smaller pieces of education.

Sounds a fun idea to be honest. I wonder if this is the niche online learning aimed for. I have done a few small online courses but find they are either too basic or seriously boring so only completed a handful.

"That frees people up to study, to work, to try to find a life with a purpose, and also it pushes us all towards reaping the common rewards. We have it backwards where studying is painful, parenting is difficult and people are unhappy whilst watching terrible things happen at home and abroad."

We also miss out on exploring the various possibilities and interests. Finding things to try out without serious upfront costs and time dedication takes work.

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: Tuition

We fund them by confiscating the assets of the royal family and putting ChazMilla on universal credit.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Tuition

Through my own study outside of education institutions I found a lot of fun hobbies/interests and I could not afford to study all of them through a university.

"Doing your own research", Hmm? Enlighten us with your findings?

[codejunky]

Re: Tuition

@AC

"I got a free education in the UK. Never paid a penny in tuition fees. Got a cracking degree and fanastic career out of it."

You did not get free education in the UK. You may not have paid for it but you did not get it for free, the price was still paid. The market price was paid. You got a degree and fantastic career which hopefully was very productive for the UK economy and the higher taxes of a higher paying job which will contribute to others going into education.

"All thanks to low cost education, free at the point of delivery."

You may think the education was low cost but I am not sure we know that, and free at the point of delivery is correct but does not mean the education was free nor that the market price wasnt paid.

"I would never advocate pulling up the ladder behind me. But turns out that's what my generation did. Nasty bastards."

That was a consequence of Blair insisting he wanted 50% of school leavers going to uni. The cost was unaffordable and so we had the tuition fees which dont cover anything near the cost of education and so still get government funding.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Tuition

"I would never advocate pulling up the ladder behind me. But turns out that's what my generation did. Nasty bastards."

I think the ladder pulling was a multi-genrational thing. Labour in the 70s, pulled up the grammar school ladder behind them.

Blair, deciding that half the population needed degrees (where were all the degree-needing jobs to come from) expanded the universities but needed student loans to pay for it, hence another ladder pulled up. It was obvious, at least to me, at the time that they were taxing the future in so many ways.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Tuition

"One of the stupid problems with the idea of forgiving student loans is that the government is still backing providing more."

To say they are "forgiving" loans is problematic since what happens is all taxpayers are winding up paying instead of the one that agreed to the terms of the loan. I put myself through two degrees with no loans nor scholarships. It took longer than 4 years, but after the cap and gown parade, I was in no debt from my education. In the mean time, I was able to find jobs that paid roughly what I could expect as a freshly minted engineer. Once I had the sheepskin, I also had amassed a few years of experience as well.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Tuition

"To say they are "forgiving" loans is problematic since what happens is all taxpayers are winding up paying instead of the one that agreed to the terms of the loan."

Education is also a Public and Common Good. [1] A better educated workforce is more productive and produces more economic growth. The stellar economic development of the East Asian Four Little Dragons after WWII can be traced back to a focus on education. Just like the (relative) decline of the UK's economy after WWII wrt to the European continent can be traced back to chronic skill shortages as a result of inadequate education.

The whole "student loan" thing holds back the USA. They solved it by importing the skills they could not hire at home with immigrants who were educated abroad. But now that they want to Stop Immigration, they will have the same skill shortage that hampered the UK economy so badly.

In short, high tuitions are foot guns.

[1] See also Education as a common good as political framing for a new social contract

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Tuition

"decline of the UK's economy after WWII"

I'd argue that UK education got significantly better after WW2, the decline in the economy was in part due to a shift in what the UK did as a whole combined with the recovery from the war. We shifted from a large scale blue collar workforce working down t'pit or in the factories to a mix of high tech and service related workforce but our tech lost out to our partners across the pond. The decline of UK education set in later as the jobs evaporated.

In the US the education system has been on the decline for decades. The top tier universities do produce some very good talent but the majority is not good. And the expectation has been that as a US grad you can walk into a 6 figure job. In more recent times it has been far cheaper to get someone from outside the US who has had a good education and can do the same job but at 1/3rd the cost. By setting the expectation of such high earnings out of uni the unis can charge more.

[Justthefacts]

Re: Trump is easy to model

“If your insurance is happy to pay $1500 for an ambulance ride then that is what they will charge.”

In the U.K., the average cost of an ambulance call-out to the NHS is £417. Seems like “socialised medicine” is more efficient and cheaper.

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/data-and-charts/key-facts-figures-nhs

You’re right about US ambulance costs: $1300 + $15 per mile is the going rate.

https://www.talktomira.com/post/how-much-does-an-ambulance-ride-cost-without-insurance

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Trump is easy to model

"It does amuse me when prominent Democrats and Dem supporters attack Trump's immigration policies with things like 'who will pick the crops' and 'who will clean the toilets'."

That one's easy. The MAGA voters, of course.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Trump is easy to model

Well the rural areas of the US do already vote overwhelmingly republican. The Democrat party has not represented the blue collar worker for quite some time.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Trump is easy to model

"It does amuse me when prominent Democrats and Dem supporters attack Trump's immigration policies with things like 'who will pick the crops' and 'who will clean the toilets'."

There's plenty of people that will do those jobs, just not for minimum wage with no benefits.

The guy that services my septic tank makes good money and pays his help a tidy sum as well. Finding people IS an issue since it's not a job most will be happy chatting about at a dinner party.

I pay the standard pricing and book a service every couple of years that doesn't cost me very much. I know how to keep from having issues. Other people have no clue and wind up needing to call up in a panic a couple/three times a year at "rush" pricing.

Back in the 60's and 70's, loading up the VW van with a few mates for a summer road trip could be financed with doing some ag work picking stuff when funds started getting low. These days the pay isn't enough for that and it's harder to pick up casual work.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Trump is easy to model

"just not for minimum wage with no benefits."

The illegals were being paid below min, if at all. In the UK there have been reports of illegals being found in what are basically slave camps working on farms.

[Missing Semicolon]

Re: Trump is easy to model

Nobody asks the questions as to why international trade speeded up so much in the 70's.

Containerisation. The public release of the specifications for what became the ISO container were published in 1958. After than it just took time for the international container shipping business to get going. It's now so cheap and efficient, that economists disregard shipping costs when looking at trade systems.

As a result, companies are currently coining it in arbitraging the difference in labour and energy costs across nations.

So, given that everybody's ports are now (economically speaking) next door to everybody else's ports, what is there to slow down trade? There is only tariffs, which the "other" "developing" nations use to full effect to protect their economies and promote their local industry.

Orange Man's tariffs are just a (crude) recognition of that.

[Burgha2]

Re: Trump is easy to model

"Containerisation"

As detailed in this book, "The Box", which is actually quite a good read

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Box_(Levinson_book)

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Trump is easy to model

"After WW2 the US was exporting a lot of stuff to the countries it had bombed into oblivion."

Then the US manufacturers - and those in the UK too - decided to export manufacturing jobs as well.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Trump is easy to model

"Then the US manufacturers - and those in the UK too - decided to export manufacturing jobs as well."

Those places rebuilt factories to the latest spec and had people eager to take any work they could get.

[Blank Reg]

Re: Trump is easy to model

Do you know what was also different about the 50's and 60's in the USA? The top tax rate was as much as 90% at times, it had been even higher before that.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Trump is easy to model

Oh lordy another one that thinks if we 'just make the rich pay more' suddenly we will be living in a utopia.

To repost my previous post on this very topic:

https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/historical-income-tax-rates-brackets/

https://statisticsanddata.org/the-evolution-of-average-income-in-the-united-states/

https://www.census.gov/library/publications/1962/demo/p60-037.html

There was a huge sliding scale back in the 50s/60s starting at around 20% on all earnings up to $4000 (married couple). Also the average family income in 1960 was under $6k. Only 4% earned over $15k.

To get into the top bracket you'd need to be on the equivalent of about $4.3 million today. Back then this accounted for VERY VERY few people.

There was FAR more to the 50s and 60s than a high tax rate for a teeny tiny % of high earners. The US was a net exporter as it was busy exporting goods to the bombed out countries in Europe and Japan. Industry hadn't been offshored and energy was largely locally produced as the envirotards had not started bleating on about coal.

The 70s was a decade of sustained double digit inflation and a HUGE downturn in the US manufacturing industry that lasted into the 80s.

So please, stop with the hyper simplistic soundbite garbage peddled by Bernie and co about taxing the rich.

[juice]

Re: Trump is easy to model

> There was FAR more to the 50s and 60s than a high tax rate for a teeny tiny % of high earners

True to a degree; however as I posted earlier, the effective tax rate was significantly higher for high earners (42% vs the current 26%), and they owned less of the USA's overall wealth (10% rather than 25%). I'd argue the latter in particular was a significant factor; not only was wealth better distributed, but they had less political/economic leverage.

Then too, let's look at here and now, with some figures from the US IRS:

https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/latest-federal-income-tax-data-2024/

If the USA decided to raise the effective tax rate (i.e. after all creative accountancy has been done) on the top 1% of tax payers back to what it was in the 1960s, the US government would receive an extra $0.6 trillion per year. Which is a lot more than I've ever found down the back of my sofa; it's nearly 10% of the USA's annual government budget!

And you could do a lot with that, such as paying off government debt, or even reducing taxes on the bottom 50% of taxpayers.

Now that'd be one hell of a "trickle-down" effect!

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Trump is easy to model

To be top 1% in the US you need to earn over $819,324

https://www.investopedia.com/personal-finance/how-much-income-puts-you-top-1-5-10/

That will be ~$75k in 1960. Assuming a married couple that puts you into the 65% max rate, not 90%.

If you earned $23,850 today you would pay zero federal income tax. In 1960 you'd be paying 20%.

[Roland6]

Re: Trump is easy to model

>Oh lordy another one that thinks if we 'just make the rich pay more' suddenly we will be living in a utopia.

That is jumping to conclusions.

The question raised is that during the 1950's and 1960's when the US economy was doing well, US income tax rates were also very high. Thus invalidating the arguments that high taxes are a disincentive to business investment etc.

The UK also had very high rates of income tax in the 1950's and 1960's. However, digging into the UK data what is interesting is whilst in the 1960s tax rates were high, tax revenues as a percentage of national income were lower than they are today where the highest rate of income tax is 45%. Which suggest that whilst tax rates might have been very high, fewer people were actually paying the higher rates of tax.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Trump is easy to model

"Thus invalidating the arguments that high taxes are a disincentive to business investment etc."

But you are focusing on personal income tax, no mention of business taxes so far here.

But as explained by others here, the focus on the single issue of high tax relating to good living standards is far too simplistic. The US was a net exporter so a business that sold goods for export had a certain guarantee that investment would lead to return. Now in the times of FIAT currencies and round the clock microtrading a business cannot risk its capital for fear of being traded to death. If you do not bend the knee to your activist investors and hedge funds you die.

The 50s and 60s in the USA were far more stable. The 70s changed all that.

[Roland6]

Re: Trump is easy to model

> the focus on the single issue of high tax relating to good living standards is far too simplistic.

Agree. However it surprising how many right wing think tanks make this simplistic link.

With respect to business taxes, my understanding is that the modern US suffers from a chronic underpayment of business taxes. I wonder what a comparison with the 1950s and 1960s would show.

I wonder if in Trumps mind he thinks that by onshoring production US companies will have to declare higher US earnings and thus pay more US taxes.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Trump is easy to model

"However it surprising how many right wing think tanks make this simplistic link"

I doubt the people here making that simplistic link would class themselves as 'right wing' :) It is very much a trait of the political left to focus on single things. Such as people refusing to vote due to Harris supporting Israel's right to self defence.

The concept of a mega multi-national corporation or a company registered in some tax haven was still a few years off so you had to pay your business taxes. It was a very different time. If the company made good money then the management AND workers made good money. Now the shareholders come first.

[juice]

Re: Trump is easy to model

> "Boomers" did rather well economically in many other countries. Not just the USA.

The period after WW2 was pretty unique. The USA had massively retooled its industrial capacities and many major industrial countries - including most of Europe - were undertaking a massive rebuild of everything which had been destroyed during the war, aided in part by loans from the USA. And the Cold War with the USSR was still driving innovations and technological uplifts.

So, the USA was constantly improving it's productivity, there was massive demand for their exports, and full employment in most other top-tier industrialised countries, especially in Western Europe. It was a golden age, both powered by and greatly benefitting the USA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post%E2%80%93World_War_II_economic_expansion

One key point in this, was that top marginal tax rates were much higher then. In the USA, between 1945 and 1963, the top tax rate was 94%; it then dropped to "just" 70% all the way up to 1981, after which it's generally hovered around 38%.

https://www.wolterskluwer.com/en/expert-insights/whole-ball-of-tax-historical-income-tax-rates

I.e. the golden age was funded in part by taxing the rich.

Oddly, the extremely affluent people who are trying to take us back to what they consider the good old days generally aren't offering to pay extra tax. Nor are they taking into account just how different the world's situation is now, as compared to the period after WW2.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Trump is easy to model

"I.e. the golden age was funded in part by taxing the rich."

https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/historical-income-tax-rates-brackets/

https://statisticsanddata.org/the-evolution-of-average-income-in-the-united-states/

https://www.census.gov/library/publications/1962/demo/p60-037.html

There was a huge sliding scale back in the 50s/60s starting at around 20% on all earnings up to $4000 (married couple). Also the average family income in 1960 was under $6k. Only 4% earned over $15k.

To get into the top bracket you'd need to be on the equivalent of about $4.3 million today. Back then this accounted for VERY VERY few people.

So no, I do not believe the US was doing well due to taxing the rich.

[Fonant]

Re: Trump is easy to model

To get into the top bracket you'd need to be on the equivalent of about $4.3 million today. Back then this accounted for VERY VERY few people.

Which is exactly how taxes should be organised. Zero tax for the lowest-paid, and exponentially increasing rates for the ultra-wealthy.

The ultra-rich don't need their $billions to have a happy life, heck even $millions is way more than enough. The very-few ultra-rich are simply hoarding money that many other people could be using to do good things. Hence the sense of 90% tax rates for top earners.

Wealth has a natural positive feedback mechanism (especially when charging interest on loans is permitted). The more money you have, the easier it is to make yet more money. Also the more debt you have, the more difficult it is to get out of your debt. To counteract this, civilised nations have taxation. To counteract obscene inequalities in wealth, you need very high tax rates for the very wealthiest.

Taxes are a Good Thing if you want a pleasant society.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Trump is easy to model

The major difference is that in 1960 the top earners were probably paid in actual money rather than stocks and shares.

The ultra rich are not hoarding money as you've been led to believe, likely by some other rich person. Musk doesn't have a huge vault where he can swim around in his money like Scrooge McDuck.

His wealth is all imaginary and mostly used as a backing for his hairbrained ideas. That wealth would not translate into more $$ in your pocket as its value would drop to zero.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Trump is easy to model

Stocks and shares have value. Which means they are a different kind of money. They are taxable - and usually are. The only real difference is it's hard to pay for stuff in the shops with a share certificate.

As for the musky one, his wealth is not imaginary - far from it. Though obviously the value of his Tesla shares will have gone down the toilet in recent weeks. He can (and almost certainly has) turn his shareholdings into actual cash by using those shares as collateral for loans from banks. They wouldn't do that if Musk's shares had no value. He can (and almost certainly has) sold lots of his shares and got real money for them.

BTW, the musky one's wealth only translates into more $$$$ in his pocket - not yours or mine.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Trump is easy to model

"Tesla shares will have gone down the toilet"

Still worth 8-10x what they were 5 years ago.

Shares are only taxes when you realise the gain. A bit like with a house. My house being worth 25% more money than when I bought it doesn't mean I have 25% more money in my pocket.

[juice]

Re: Trump is easy to model

> My house being worth 25% more money than when I bought it doesn't mean I have 25% more money in my pocket

But that does mean you can go to your bank and ask for a new mortgage which is 25% higher, thereby giving yourself a large wodge of cash.

And that's essentially what the super rich do: they take out loans against their assets and thereby avoid paying taxes.

https://youtu.be/b2M4QTHSKDU

There can be a bit of risk involved, since your assets have to appreciate in value quickly enough to cover the interest on the loan.

But the superrich can generally find someone to offer them very reasonable terms, and after all: when you owe the bank a tenner, it's your problem. But when you owe the bank a million bucks, it's the bank's problem...

[MachDiamond]

Re: Trump is easy to model

"And that's essentially what the super rich do: they take out loans against their assets and thereby avoid paying taxes."

That works for one cycle. The loans have to be repaid or the bank comes around to collect those assets that have been pledged as security. You'd also be paying interest to leverage that property. How quickly your assets appreciate has no bearing since all you could do is qualify for a larger loan until the snake has swallowed it's tail.

[juice]

Re: Trump is easy to model

> That works for one cycle.

Not really.

In the first instance, the Vimes Theory of Economic Unfairness applies; unless you're Elton John, once you get past a certain point, the amount you spend rarely increases at the same rate as your wealth.

To use some arbitrary numbers:

Someone earning 40k a year probably spends 80% of their income on maintaining their lifestyle.

Someone earning 80k will spend 60%.

Someone earning 500k will spend 30%

Someone with 200 million in assets will spend maybe 2%

And so on.

Which means that for the super-rich, maintaining a "living" loan is easy; you can always find some other asset to maintain the status quo, and for an added bonus, a good accountant will find ways to use any asset deprecation to reduce what minimal taxes you're paying...

[Mike VandeVelde]

Re: Trump is easy to model

Musk is worth what 400 billion. How much of that is the current value of the shares he is holding? If he sold 10 billion worth of shares today, what would that do to the value of the remaining shares? If he sold another 10 billion tomorrow, then what would happen? And another 10 billion the day after that? Today he is "worth" 400 billion, but does he have an actual bank account anywhere with an actual balance of anywhere near even 1 one single billion cold hard cash? If he started to try to actually cash in, what chance would he have of actually realizing anywhere near 400 billion? It's a house of cards. But as long as nobody shakes the table he can say "400 billion" and get any loan he wants to do anything he wants, like buy Twitter when they have the gall to ban his lunacy. The opposite of someone who bought a house decades ago and worked their ass off to pay it off. Try taking an assessment down to the grocery store and see how many carts full of goods they will let you walk out the door with. Sure you could leverage it for another loan, if you want to keep working to pay it off well past your retirement and death and deep into your grandchildren's children's lives. Keeping finance bros going from the interest the whole time with hot and cold running hookers and scarface amounts of cocaine and mega yachts where you can park regular yacht runabouts in the hold and penisrocket rides into space and private islands crawling with nubile young desperate drug addicted women. Where's the problem???

[MachDiamond]

Re: Trump is easy to model

"the amount you spend rarely increases at the same rate as your wealth."

How are you calculating "wealth"? Net worth is what you have minus what you owe. If you take out a loan to have cash with your assets pledged as security, you have to come up with the funds to make payments on that loan and it doesn't matter if the price of your estate has gone up or not.

Sir Samuel Vimes wound up in a situation where he could afford cheap boots. The house was Sybil's (deeded to him after they were married), there was closets full of high quality clothing, the furniture was top end and the country estate(s) brought in an income as well as some of their properties in Ankh-Moorpork.

In the some states of the US, one doesn't need to have auto insurance. Instead, one can place a suitable amount of money in an interest bearing bank account and register that in lieu. Instead of a periodic payment, there's a periodic interest credit. One can eschew having home owner's insurance if their home is paid off or the lender will accept a similar sort of arrangement. Not only does the percentage of living costs drop, it can be magnified by practices that 'regular' people can't indulge in. I don't know how Infernal Revenue would react if one had their home owned by a company that leased it back for a very attractive monthly rent and called that compensation for income tax purposes. For those that don't know, if an employer is providing room and board, there are minimum allowances that have to be considered as part of the employee's income. Think oil rigs and cruise ships.

[Roland6]

Re: Trump is easy to model

> once you get past a certain point, the amount you spend rarely increases at the same rate as your wealth.

I seem to remember this is the problem the Gates Foundation has, namely it is struggling to spend the money faster than capital is growing.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Trump is easy to model

" He can (and almost certainly has) turn his shareholdings into actual cash by using those shares as collateral for loans from banks."

How many shares would a bank accept as collateral before it became too much of a risk? They couldn't liquidate them without reducing their value.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Trump is easy to model

"Which is exactly how taxes should be organised. Zero tax for the lowest-paid, and exponentially increasing rates for the ultra-wealthy."

Are you advocating a "wealth tax"? Many ultra-wealthy can have a very modest income. How hard do you have to work when you have a very nice home, furnishings, cars, etc? I know I don't have to hustle as much now that my house is paid off. Good thing too as I'm feeling my age more and more.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Trump is easy to model

Anyone who is "ultra-wealthy" but has a "modest income" is doing that for tax reasons. Their "company" owns the house, the car and pays their living expenses so they only "earn" a modest amount, pay little tax and the the possessions are a tax write off for their company. For those of us who are not "ultra-wealthy", all those "freebies" are taxable "benefit-in-kind" and we'd probably end up paying more over a number of years than simply buying them in the first place. Broken tax system with far, far too many exemptions and loop-holes that only the very rich can exploit because they can afford to pay $200K for accountants who save them $millions.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Trump is easy to model

"Their "company" owns the house, the car and pays their living expenses so they only "earn" a modest amount, pay little tax and the the possessions are a tax write off for their company."

They can have an LLC own the home, but living expenses are considered income for tax purposes. The bigger the company, the more they can bury expenses, but if there were an audit, any paper trail not entirely covered up could lead to some big fines.

Depending on where you live in the US, having a LLC or three to own things for you (the company director) is a handy tax dodge and can make other things simpler as well. California charges a "foreign corporation" (out of state) tax so it might not be a good financial tactic there. Other states might be doing the same thing now too. I have a book, "How to be Invisible" that goes into things like having a company who's sole purpose is to own your car so somebody looking up the registration finds "Acme Widgets, LLC of Albuquerque, NM" and not your information. Same for homes and other large holdings. It might also make transferring assets to an heir much simpler.

The saying is "Millionaires pay accountants, not taxes". Politicians are often millionaires or will be after a term of insider trading so they aren't going to close the loop-holes. The trick is to find the ones that you have a chance of leveraging and working up from there.

[juice]

Re: Trump is easy to model

> So no, I do not believe the US was doing well due to taxing the rich.

That's a fair comment; a bit more digging indicates that the rich generally paid around 42% in tax, though this has since declined to around 25%

https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/taxes-on-the-rich-1950s-not-high/

https://taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/effective-income-tax-rates-have-fallen-top-one-percent-world-war-ii-0

Still, that 17% drop is pretty significant. Looking at US tax income from 2024, bumping the tax rate back up to 42% for just the top 1% would give the US government an extra 0.6 trillion dollars per year.

https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/latest-federal-income-tax-data-2024/

Or they could extend this rate to the top 5% (minimum income: $0.5 million/year) and get an extra $1.2 trillion, or around 20% of the US's annual government expenditure.

Equally, I just came across this article, while conversing elsewhere:

https://slate.com/business/2014/12/best-graph-of-2014-the-rise-and-rise-of-top-0-1.html

In simple terms, at the start of the 20th century, the richest 0.1% in the US owned about 25% of all household wealth; this was then dragged down a bit by the Great Depression in the 1930s, and then crashed down to "just" 10% by WW2 taxes.

And it stayed at just 10% until the 1970s; after a bit of a further bump down due to the oil crisis in the mid-1970s, it's since steadily crept back up to 25%; given that the graph only goes up to 2012, I wouldn't be surprised if it's now even higher, given the recent enthusiasm for "trickle down" economics.

Fundamentally though, the great American Golden age happened at a time when taxes were higher, and the super-rich controlled a relatively small amount of the national wealth.

I doubt this is a coincidence.

[teknopaul]

Re: Trump is easy to model

Millenials are getting shafted no matter what. Even if this crazy plan make money (which it won't) none is getting redistruted differently.

There is no plan to tax the rich or make corps pay higher wages.

This is solely because evil comes as standard in the US

[Roland6]

Re: Trump is easy to model

> You mean the 1950s and 60s

The time when h major parts of) the rest of the world were rebuilding after a war, and so indebited themselves to the US as they uses US manufactured goods to rebuild. Seem to remember the UK finally repaid its US war loans in 2006…

Remember the USA (ignoring Pearl Harbour) was not bombed during WWII…

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Trump is easy to model

That is exactly the point. The US boomers boomed (in the economic sense) as the rest of the world was in ruins.

The claim that this didn't happen is false.

It is also why the US has a very different attitude to war compared with say Europe. Only 1 person died due to enemy action in the continental US during WW2 (Japanese balloon bomb) so most Americans have never seen the destruction (or its aftermath) with their own eyes. So they see Iraq, Afghanistan and Ukraine in the same light. Far away, never going to bother us here. nothing to worry about. It was a HELL of a shock to the US system when the rooskies gained the ability to lob nukes at them with very little warning.

[that one in the corner]

Re: Trump is easy to model

> the 'golden age' of manufacturing that lives in his head is never coming back.

But, but, people are saying, many people, that Trump has the best expert in his buddy Elon:

>> "At this point, I think I know more about manufacturing than anyone currently alive on earth."[1]

How could that Dynamic Duo ever get it wrong?

[1] Maybe the World has just moved on, it has been a couple of years since he made that claim.

[UnknownUnknown]

But the USMCA - ‘the greatest trade deal ever’ - with free trade/no tariffs just had a haemorrhaging of jobs to Mexico.

Cheap Labour. (US Corporate) Capitalism in Action.

[NerryTutkins]

With flip flop Donny, will anyone be stupid enough to invest billions building factories in the US? He'd just as likely change his mind next week, or change his mind and punish you anyway because your business is foreign-owned. Being erratic and unpredictable is a very bad basis to encourage long term investment.

Most companies will sit on their hands, so I would expect investment to collapse in the US. Already there are huge flows of cash from US investors to EU stock markets. That suggests smart money in the US is heading for the exits.

[Peter2]

Well, yes?

Trump has in a world which is just starting a massive rearmament drive managed via shooting his mouth to put people off buying American weapons. Then he says perhaps he's reducing the size of the US army by 50%, and bang.

Boeing: down 2% YTD, despite the announcement of the F47 fighter. Possibly because Trump openly said that he'd sell a gimped version to allies as they might not be allies for long, which is the most stupid comment since Gerald Ratner.

Lockheed Martin down 6% YTD.

Meanwhile Europe declares that they are increasing the size of their armed forces and reducing dependencies on foreign weapons and throw a trillion into strategic parts of their arms industries. If you had money to put into an arms company then have a look at these share prices:-

BAE: Up 37% YTD

MBDA: Up 72% YTD

Thales: Up 77% YTD

Rheinmetal: Up 117% YTD

It's pretty obvious where you want to be putting money at the moment if you wanted to make money on an increasing share price and good dividends.

[Anonymous Coward]

What would a "reciprocal" tax on arms do?

I wonder what would happen if affected countries raised a "reciprocal" tax on arms imported from the USA. At the very least it should boost most of these countries percentage of GDP spend on the military as Trump want. In theory that should please him, but in reality it could be the best way to make him mad.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: What would a "reciprocal" tax on arms do?

It gets better. Just think of the bigly tariffs you'll collect when the US invades or bombs you.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: What would a "reciprocal" tax on arms do?

I can see many will find the idea that other nations might dare to also put tarrifs on US arms a bridge too far, but think of it it in an economic sense:

A fairly large percentage of US good exports are arms. So if nations want an equal percentage of taxes to reciprocate, they have a few options:

* Include services, which the Trump administration conviently excluded. That would target the US movie, music, software and cloud industry. That would also risk to lock-out many US big software houses from foreign government contracts and would bring this whole trade ware to a new level.

* Just slap the same flat rate on all US goods as the US imposes on the taxed country, that includes much needed / desired goods by the importing nations such as energy and arms. That in effect is also a tariff on US arms equall to the tariff Trump imposes on all goods from that nations.

* Redistribute the same total amount of tax over all US good exports minus energy, arms and high-end semiconductors. That would leave most remaining US exports taxed to such levels that they'd become totally unsellable.

Other nations might just give in, but that is a damaging and risky strategy too. It'll damage their economy and risks to been seen as weak and an easy target for even more tariffs.

[CrazyOldCatMan]

Re: What would a "reciprocal" tax on arms do?

Include services, which the Trump administration conviently excluded. That would target the US movie, music, software and cloud industry.

This.

The rest of the world needs to be weaned off dependence on the US tech industry. Our data isn't safe in US hands and certainly I don't trust Microsoft/Oracle/AWS to keeps things going smoothly. Alternatives exist for all of them.

Stop using them, cut off their money (or put tariffs on it to make them squeal) and the cloud bubble will start to deflate [1]. And not a moment too soon.

[1] Lets be clear here - all on-prem isn't the solution, just like all-cloud isn't a solution. There's a happy place in the middle with a hybrid of the two - stuff that needs scalable response (web services and the like) - fine in the cloud, preferrably serverless. Stuff with fixed loads, keep on-prem. Storage in the cloud costs multiple of what local storage does *and* puts your data security in someone elses' hands. Etc etc etc. Location should be determined by function, not by ideology

[Peter2]

Re: What would a "reciprocal" tax on arms do?

Um.

Civilised countries do not encourage the population to wander around armed and enact John Wayne shootouts. That being the case, the only entity buying US arms is the government of the country for their military, and they aren't going to tax themselves because that's our politicians aren't as stupid as Trump. The response will instead be along the lines of "Does anybody else make something similar?" and "buy it from them then". You've got to take Trump at his word saying that maybe US allies won't be allies in the future and that maybe the US will sell us downgraded versions of weapons. Therefore we can't buy anything from the US that's higher technology than a bullet without worrying that it's got some form of kill switch in it, and therefore any reliance upon US stuff more advanced than a bullet is going to be run down in favour of making our own.

The lack of confidence is the US is far more damaging than Tarrifs, and Trump does more damage every time he opens his mouth.

* Redistribute the same total amount of tax over all US good exports minus energy, arms and high-end semiconductors. That would leave most remaining US exports taxed to such levels that they'd become totally unsellable.

This is what had already been done previously dealing with Trumps previous round of tariffs.

The EU made good on its threat to retaliate when retaliating to the US' introduction of 25% tariffs on aluminium and steel imports by imposing tariffs that could affect up to €26 billion worth of US products, but it also tried to tailor them to hit Trump in his heartland.

At the heart of EU’s retaliation measures are products from the American states that elected Donald Trump: soja bean from Louisiana - the state of the speaker of the US House of Representatives Mike Johnson - beef and poultry from Nebraska and Arkansas. EU tariffs on wood will also impact Georgia and Virginia.

“In our response we try to be smart,” said a senior EU official, adding: “That means we have a list of products that have high iconic value, high symbolical value, that do not cost us much.”

And it doesn't cost as much because as you put it, it means that they are taxed to such levels that they become totally unsellable; because if we can buy stuff from Argentina instead for 3% more and you put 10% tarrifs on the US produce then it becomes 7% more expensive, and the market just goes with the cheaper option. The cost to us is about 3%, the cost to America is 100% because they no longer have a market.

So kiss goodbye to red state exports to the EU. I'd also expect that tax dodging by US multinationals and any number of other issues is going to come under very, very intense scrutiny; the only reason it hasn't been tackled is the US objections and the public attitude towards upsetting the US government just shifted somewhat.

[Casca]

Re: What would a "reciprocal" tax on arms do?

That explains the tariff on Yemen

[mpi]

> whereby other countries then come to the table and drop their already-existing tariffs on US goods

That's not gonna happen for 2 reasons:

1) These other countries have ZERO incentive to lower their tariffs in response, for economic reasons...that would just give american companies a competitive advantage on those countries home markets

2) These countries have every geopolitical reason to instead INCREASE their tariffs in response. If they didn't, that would signal to the world that bullying works against them.

The US government believes that other countries will negotiate with them, on US terms, and isolated one by one...because that's how maga perceives trade: as a zero sum game, where every win has to be someones loss. A world were cooperation generates wealth, thereby making everyone win, is not on their bingo card. Consequently, that's also how maga perceives international politics; they believe every country is in it always and only for itself at the expense of everyone else...which is why they are constantly flummoxed when groups of countries (including unlikely allies such as China+Japan+Korea), such as the EU or Mexico+Canada, band together to implement retaliatory tariffs in response to those from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

Trade

"A world were cooperation generates wealth, thereby making everyone win, is not on their bingo card."

Even a little economics would teach them that all wealth originates in trade. One of the classics in Economics is "The wealth of the nations", and it is to a large part about trade between people, ie, markets, between countries, and about money to do the trade, ie, gold and silver.

But to learn, there must be a desire to increase knowledge. That is absent in people who already decided they know how the world turns, and therefore do not have to think or learn anymore.*

* Barbara Tuchman used this a a definition of a fool in "The March of Folly".

[Excused Boots]

"He's going to make things worse for everyone, but especially for Americans.”

No, no, no, sorry but have to correct you there, it’s be worse for almost everyone, except the very rich - so that’s OK then!

[MachDiamond]

"No, he's just a moron and doesn't understand how anything works."

He has the same disease as many wealthy people that haven't lied in the real world for ages (if ever). When it's vitally important that you keep an accurate balance on your bank account since you can't afford the overdraft fees, life is much different. Running a small business is also a massive chore since there's no comprehensive guide to all of the fines a government will assess if you do/don't do something that doesn't make any sense. Depositing payroll taxes one day late can be as expensive as paying a service for a whole year in fines. This is something you might find out in a rude way if a mentor didn't clue you in before you hired your first employee. Quickbooks makes it sound like you can handle your own payroll using their software. While you can, if you don't understand all of the regs, it can cost you so better to just use the outside service that agrees to pay for their mistakes should they ever make one (didn't happen to me in 17 years running a manufacturing company). Mr Trump will have zero clue to any of this and also how the overlapping state and federal agencies impede getting any work done. I'm all for not polluting, but to have 4 or more agencies all demanding different forms and measurements for the same thing is costly. Want to make manufacturing profitable in the US, start fixing that crap and stop paying the biggest companies millions to build a new factory and 'promise' to hire a certain number of people (if convenient).

[Roland6]

> Quickbooks makes it sound like you can handle your own payroll using their software.

QB Core payroll, forced upgrade last year is a lot less functional than the previous package. I now have to do a lot more in Excel !!! (the client I do the accounts for has a lot of low paid and part-time staff) and simply plug in the final numbers and hope.

Also whilst the integration with HMRC still works, it is less functional and doesn’t give the same confidence the payroll has been correctly filed, plus I have never managed to get the integrations with my pension provider and bank to work, so these are still manual.

[Zenubi]

When free markets vanish black markets appear.

[John Brown (no body)]

I suspect there will be a lot of "shuffling" of goods moving around the world in the coming months such that they appear to come from a low tariff country. Or parts being shipped to low tariff countries for final assembly. What happens will probably depend on the fine detail in the Trump Tariffs.

[mpi]

> Wouldn’t raising U.S. tariffs encourage other countries to negotiate and lower theirs in response,

No...because that's not how tariffs work?

If country A raises tariffs on goods from country B unilaterally, country B is pretty much forced to impose additional tariffs on country A, lest he endangers the competitiveness of his own industries.

[Anonymous Coward]

how tariffs work 101

How is it fair that citizens in other countries must pay substantially higher tariffs imposed by their governments, making imported goods more expensive, while Americans face little to no tariffs on many imports? The world’s “richest” country benefits from cheaper foreign products, yet others must pay a premium.

Wouldn’t raising U.S. tariffs encourage other countries to negotiate and lower theirs in response, leading to more balanced trade and making imported goods more affordable for everyone?

You are profoundly stupid. So stupid you deserve to get a job at the White House.

Countries don't pay tariffs. Consumers pay them on the goods and services they import or are imported for them. This means the tariffs just imposed by the orange buffoon will be paid by USians, nobody else. Though some exporters *might* drop their prices to try to offset the higher prices caused by Trump's tariffs. He doesn't know how tariffs work, just like you, or just lies and lies about that.

Other countries won't reduce their tariffs. They'll raise them in retaliation. If the USA is going to to make it harder for their exporters, it's only fair they reciprocate and make it hard for anyone importing stuff from the USA. So the rest of the world is going to make American stuff more expensive in their domestic markers. Which will harm US business.

Imposing tariffs is a game where everyone loses.

Besides, Trump's a bully. The only response to bullies is to stand up to them. Cutting your tariffs in the hope the orange buffoon will play nice is beyond stupid. Just like how sucking up to the school bully rarely ends well.

[Justthefacts]

Re: how tariffs work 101

Any exporter that drops their prices, is still only going to do it by a negligible fraction. Worked example:

I sell something for £100, on which I make 10% gross margin = £10 profit. Now the target country wants to charge 10% tariff. If the exporter absorbs that, they make *zero* profit, so they won’t do that.

However, it’s also true that if they stopped selling to that country, they’d lose X% of total sales, which they need to make up elsewhere. And the only way to do that is by dropping their price to buyers in other countries [WAIT! I don’t think that’s what Trump had in mind! Yeah, that’s right, Trump is an idiot, if the USA is worried about subsidising other countries, that’s exactly what he is about to do, the net beneficiary of any trade war is *buyers in third party countries*]. At 10% gross margin, the equilibrium selling price drops by 1-2%. 90% of the tariff impact is on the import side.

Now, I know what the MAGA / EU tariff crowd think (same people, different flag). “We’re a huge market of 400 million people, we’re your most important market, if we raise the tariffs then we’ve got you over a barrel, you’ll have to pay them”. No. The reason why that’s wrong, is that *if* that is the market dynamic, then the importer *already* has the exporter over a barrel. They’ve *already* got squeezed prices to the maximum possible, the market dynamic is already priced in. That’s how prices work, they sit at the point where the seller is prepared to walk away if the buyer pushes harder, because there’s insufficient profit. If the market dynamic is as described, then the gross margin won’t be 10%, it will be 2%. So if the exporter absorbed, they would be *losing 8% on every tonne they ship*, which they aren’t going to do.

And for those saying “Ah, but TSMC are selling at 40% gross margin”. Yes, they are. Because they can. It’s telling you that if the buyer, walked away from the table, TSMC can get only slightly less than 40% margin from their remaining market.

[Anonymous Coward]

oreosRnice

joined 25 Mar 2023

'Nuff said?

[bombastic bob]

of course the common sense post gets a tremendous number of downvotes...

[UP-vote from me]

[Justthefacts]

I’m all for dropping tariff barriers completely in all developed nations.

It’s worth remembering the argument for less developed countries keeping them, to prevent the gorilla-in-the-room problem. If you are, say, a small island nation whose main economic output is a particular type of traditional handwoven hand basket. And you find that you cannot compete even *internally* with TEMU hand baskets at $0.30 each because of volume production. Then what do you do? If you drop tariffs then you will quickly find your island becomes a bogus re-seller of TEMU baskets, to gullible tourists, and what sort of life is that.

There’s also the cultural imperialism problem: if eg Peru dropped tariffs against US cheese (I don’t know if this is a real example or not), and US plastic cheese were cheap enough, Peruvians might end up eating that instead of Queso Fresco. Not because they wanted to, but because they couldn’t afford not to. The free market reply is that “yes, if freely chosen, that means their lives would be better”.But back in the real world, it’s worse to live in a carbon copy of a US slum, than in a poor but differentiated part of the world.

But in most of the rest of the world, tariffs are - economically a mistake; lower and less relevant than you think; more about national pride than economics. For example, the reason why the EU has tariffs at all, is not because they really need them. It’s an emotional tie to bind them, an excuse to exist at all, and a stick to bash their own constituents into compliance “there, see what would happen to you if you were outside”. Current typical tariffs worldwide are around 5%. Come on, take a step back, how much do you think *5%* really affects which country you produce in? I just checked, whole British leg of lamb costs £18.50/kg in Waitrose, £9.52/kg NZ leg of lamb in Sainsburys. It’s a factor of two. The tariff on NZ lamb is 12%. The tariff argument for on-shoring is just bullshit. If we doubled tariffs on NZ lamb tomorrow, people who eat the cheaper lamb which has *been on a freezer ship for two months* would still do so, and the people who are prepared to pay more, would still do so.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, he was right about

> unusual and extraordinary threat to the .. economy of the United States

Just look at all those share prices tumbling!

If only he could figure out why*, each time he "does something to make it all better", the numbers get worse...

* (It must be the Chinese, they are known to be devilishly cunning)

[Mitoo Bobsworth]

Re: Well, he was right about

"If only he could figure out why"

You must be referring to someone else - Trump doesn't 'do' thinking.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Well, he was right about

Good point. And it seems to me that these import tariffs may end up having some of the same effects as a carbon tax, which they'd never ever have wanted to put in place: higher cost of living in the US, lowering of long-range-transport GHG emissions through reduced volume of goods imported into the US.

If the money raised by these import tariffs could be invested in climate change mitigation and prevention efforts (rather than free dildos for the rich) then we could have a real winner!

[Ken Y-N]

Re: Well, he was right about

Just look at all those share prices tumbling!

Obviously our wonderful Stock Market is being manipulated by LEFT-WING DEMOCRAT AMERICA-HATING IMMIGANTS.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Well, he was right about

It's all Biden's fault. He's really not very smart. Not smart at all.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Well, he was right about

Yeah, he manages to get a dig at Biden in EVERY speech, comment and press conference. He's obsessed with the guy!!

[Justthefacts]

Re: Well, he was right about

The list of people who the right-wingers call hard-left is never-ending.

It’s doctors, nurses, lawyers, judges, accountants & management consultants (insufficient qualified non-hard-left forensic accountants to audit government!), airline pilots, the military generally, all civil servants.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Well, he was right about

Citation needed.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Well, he was right about

> unusual and extraordinary threat to the .. economy of the United States

Just look at all those share prices tumbling!

If only he could figure out why*, each time he "does something to make it all better", the numbers get worse..."

While I totally agree with you, it's also worth bearing in mind how various stock markets work, They can go up and down for what sometimes are the most specious of reasons and we see that happen all the time. The wild swings, mostly down, of recent weeks will probably recover somewhat over the next month or two as we see how the world changes to take account of the Orang Buffoonary. Or will turn into a full on trade ware and everything collapse and our grand children will wonder what electricity is.

[that one in the corner]

From the "fact sheet", singling out Blighty

> The UK maintains non-science-based standards that severely restrict U.S. exports of safe, high-quality beef and poultry products.

Not in the least; if we were actually offered high-quality beef (without excessive levels of hormones) or poultry products that were properly prepared (instead of damaging eggs so that they go off if you don't keep them refrigerated) then we would happily accept them.

But it looks like the USA really wants to keep all its safe, high-quality products to itself, and just offer the rest of the World its dregs. No thanks.

(Similarly, why would Argentina take in US beef? There is a reason the US imports tasty cows from the Argentine...)

(And the tirade against Japan, which boils down to US car makers can't be fagged to meet their higher standards...)

[blu3b3rry]

Re: From the "fact sheet", singling out Blighty

Ref the complaining from Donny to Ms. Merkel about why he didn't see any Chevrolets while in Berlin.

If they weren't crap people would buy them - I can only assume he's forgotten how prevalent the Japanese and Korean brands are in the US. 2025 top ten selling cars so far in the USA? Five of them are either Toyotas or Hondas!

[BartyFartsLast]

Re: From the "fact sheet", singling out Blighty

Well,indeed, most of the US cars are shite and totally unsuited for European roads so they don't sell here.

The few that do make it over here are usually utter crap unless they're are using the same platform across the world with European heritage or are actually just a brand owned by a European group.

[Joe W]

Re: From the "fact sheet", singling out Blighty

Until... ok, a while ago, we had two quite successful American car manufacturers in Europe: GM and Ford. GM owned Opel and Vauxhall (Opel is now part of... Segula or whatever, don't know about Vauxhall), and Ford (admittedly it is Ford Europe) is still going pretty strong, but those two companies do produce cars targeted to the European market. Build something decent and people will buy it (if reasonably priced). Until a few years back nobody had heard of BYD, but now there's a bunch of them on the roads. Apparently it is not impossible to enter the EU market.

Stupid eejits.

I'd be totally for enforcing stronger rules about car sizes, things have become ridiculous over here with the stupid SUV that now world and dog produce, and that need two parking spots, and that overlap roadways, and are f'ing heavy. (and I think they look like ass, but hey, de gustibus...)

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The economic "plan" behind the madness

Many/most Europeans drive stick shift transmission.

And European cities are not built for American cars. American cars are longer, wider and more heavy than European cars. Roads and parking spaces in any city older than 200 years, ie, almost any mayor city not bombed out in WWII, are not built for long wide cars.

American car manufacturers simply don't produce cars fit for Europe or Japan in the US. When they produce them, they do so locally.

But all the former reality TV star says about tariffs is a side show.

The actual plan in the background seems to be to drive the US into a recession to devalue the dollar while forcing everyone to keep the dollar as a reserve currency with interest free perpetual bonds. The word "bond" here should be read as "tribute" in the way used by the Roman empire.

The so-called future Mar-a-Lago accord. Look it up.

As there is no upside of this plan to the rest of the world, the US will need a very large stick to force everyone to pay the US a tribute. Especially as the orange utang is not trusted to keep the US side of the deal whatever the final deal is. He learned that from that hero of his, The Poisoner.

Expect some serious economic hardship in the homeland. Oh, and The Poisoner knew how to deal with oligarchs and plutocrats. I assume the orange utang has learned that lesson too. Don't gloat when it happens. In the end, your turn will come too.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The economic "plan" behind the madness

"Many/most Europeans drive stick shift transmission."

Probably worth researching as an awful lot of modern cars, especially higher end, are autos.

[Casca]

Re: The economic "plan" behind the madness

And every electric car

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The economic "plan" behind the madness

> an awful lot of modern cars, especially higher end, are autos.

So in your research, what skew did you find in the unit sales ratio of higher end to lower end cars being bought & driven? If > 50% of people actually *use* "lower end" with manual gearboxes then that gives the "many/most" result.

You may well find that there is a larger number of different models at the higher end, because that is part of what makes *any* market's higher end: selling something so that you "stand out from the crowd".

Oh, and don't forget, you have to remove all the EV sales from your numbers because they don't give us the opportunity to drive a manual, even if it'd be more fun to do so.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The economic "plan" behind the madness

Car rentals in Europe have many more manual gearbox cars than automatic, and the manual ones are cheaper to rent. That might be changing, especially in the higher end.

[ChrisElvidge]

Re: The economic "plan" behind the madness

In Europe, manufacturers charge a premium for an automatic gearbox.

In USA, manufacturers charge a premium for a manual gearbox.

So guess which gearboxes are prevalent in Europe and USA.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The economic "plan" behind the madness

For some European cars the premium is on the manual. Certainly the big German brands. Autos are gentler on the drivetrain and (in theory) no clutch to wear out.

On autotrader.co.uk 50% of VW golfs are auto, slightly more than 50% of BMW 1 series are auto and slightly under 50% of BMW minis are auto.

The big difference is with cheap runarounds. Vauxhall Astras and Corsas are about 5:1 manual to auto.

[David Hicklin]

Re: The economic "plan" behind the madness

>. The big difference is with cheap runarounds. Vauxhall Astras and Corsas are about 5:1 manual to auto

Our 2nd hand Corsa is a petrol automatic (much kinder to left knees as you get older) and is lovely to drive. But yeah they are rare but as mentioned as we go more electric there will come a time when a manual will be rare.

I do wonder at what point there will be a shift over in the driving instructors as manuals become rarer, and a manual licence more valuable.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: The economic "plan" behind the madness

"I do wonder at what point there will be a shift over in the driving instructors as manuals become rarer, and a manual licence more valuable."

Don't know if it's changed, but back when I took my test in about 1979, you could take a driving test in a car with an auto-box, but the licence acquired meant that was all you could drive. The vast majority took a test in a car with a manual box and that licence meant you could drive either manual or auto. Having said that, I think the classes covered by my licence is now more restrictive for those taking a driving test in more recent years. I don't remember all the classes covered by my licence as I've never needed to drive anything other manual or auto cars.

[Neil Barnes]

Re: The economic "plan" behind the madness

Last time I drove a US automatic rental - admittedly, twenty years ago - it was clear that the engine, gearbox, and cruise control weren't talking to each other: a sudden drop of two gears to accelerate 5mph while cruising, or gears suddenly changing half way around a corner. It's clear that I don't drive in the US style.

(But then, my local service garage is always amazed at how little brakes I wear out: I don't drive German style of roaring up behind someone doing 100kph faster than them on the autobahn, and then jam my brakes on at the last second...)

[MachDiamond]

Re: The economic "plan" behind the madness

"But then, my local service garage is always amazed at how little brakes I wear out: I don't drive German style of roaring up behind someone doing 100kph faster than them on the autobahn, and then jam my brakes on at the last second..."

I've seen plenty of people that are mostly accelerating while driving (+/-), rather than driving with a more measured acceleration. Along the main blvd where I live, there are several stops signs so it's pointless between nearly all of them to accelerate to the speed limit. I need to check if I'm coming due for new brake pads since it's been years. With the price of petrol, shaving 2.4s off of a trip by jack-rabbiting from stops is crazy. Some years ago, a couple of us did a long trip and I drove my "little ol' lady" style and they hammered it. They beat me by an hour after a whole day of driving and I spent far less on petrol with a similar car. The hour didn't make any difference for the trip. They got checked into a hotel before me and watched TV or something until I arrived and we all went for dinner, got back and went to bed at a similar time and left at the same time the next morning.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: The economic "plan" behind the madness

"European cities are not built for American cars"

So UNFAIR!! Europeans CHEATING the US AGAIN!!!

Tariffs will stay until Europe rebuilds its cities for American cars.

[Excused Boots]

Re: The economic "plan" behind the madness

"Tariffs will stay until Europe rebuilds its cities for American cars.”

For crying out load, will you stop giving him ideas!

[MachDiamond]

Re: The economic "plan" behind the madness

""Tariffs will stay until Europe rebuilds its cities for American cars.”"

I'd much rather see European cars in the US. I have no need to seat 7 people in my car, look out of glass roof or have the momentum to crash all the way through a building. I deleted the rear seat so I have more room for work stuff and to let me stretch out and sleep on long trips since cheap motels are crazy expensive just to have a bed and a shower (hot water not included). Camp sites range from free to $30 and a shower at a truck stop is $12 if I really need one. It's been ages since I've done a trip with more than one overnight while driving. Beyond that, I'd rather take a train if I can.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The economic "plan" behind the madness

"Tariffs will stay until Europe rebuilds its cities for American cars."

Wasn't that the job they want Putin to do? Remodeling cities Ukraine style?

[Phil O'Sophical]

Re: From the "fact sheet", singling out Blighty

don't know about Vauxhall

Vauxhall was bought by PSA, all now part of the Stellantis empire.

[Casca]

Re: From the "fact sheet", singling out Blighty

Same with trucks. Who would drive an american truck in europe?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: From the "fact sheet", singling out Blighty

Your question should be why would anyone drive an american truck in europe?

[MachDiamond]

Re: From the "fact sheet", singling out Blighty

"Who would drive an american truck in europe?

If you really needed a truck that large, sure. As a daily driver, no way.

The problem in the US is those trucks are now passengermobiles with an al fresco boot. It's hard to get a single or extra cab that features enough of a bed to be useful for work. The Ford Ranger used to be a small/mid size truck and now it's an expensive 7/8's scale F-150 (and useless).

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: From the "fact sheet", singling out Blighty

"Who would drive an american truck in europe?"

I think a lot of that is the maximum length and weight limits across the EU on the tractor/trailer combo. Because of that, almost all EU trucks are what Americans call a "cab-over", ie a flat front, so as to maximise the length of the load carrying trailer behind. While the US does have "cab-over" trucks (see, they even have a special name for the minority because all other trucks are just "trucks", although they used call their "normal" trucks bull-nosed trucks in the past), most US truckers don't like them because they see them as dangerous, ie the driver is right at the front and doesn't have a huge engine out front to save them when they crash head on.

Or did you mean a pick-up type truck?

[MachDiamond]

Re: From the "fact sheet", singling out Blighty

"Because of that, almost all EU trucks are what Americans call a "cab-over", ie a flat front, so as to maximise the length of the load carrying trailer behind."

The roads in Europe can be really tight so a "conventional" tractor wouldn't work. The US also has longer permitted overall lengths so not sitting on top of the engine is much nicer for the driver. There isn't the need to keep a tidy cab in case there's a need to get to the engine. In a cab-over layout, better double check that everything is bolted down and won't rain down on the windscreen.

With electric trucks, a cab-over can be just fine since the motor can just be part of a rear axle. Edison Motors has built some hybrid electrics for the logging industry and put out some really informative videos on their design philosophy. The ElectricTrucker in Germany has a great YT channel as well. He drives solo so he's often up against his legal drive and on-duty times more than charge levels. His cab's-eye view makes me cringe. Way back when I held a commercial license, I never tried to negotiate a small city center since large trucks were banned or the person I worked with would handle getting the truck to a concert venue and backed in safely (it was his truck). I just got taxed with doing the boring long freeway sections while he napped and read books.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: From the "fact sheet", singling out Blighty

There might be a UK market for some well-made cars that don't have the EU-mandated nannycrap like speed limiters and lane assist.

I have my doubts about whether any US auto factory could produce a car that would be considered "well-made" by European standards, though.

[David Hicklin]

Re: From the "fact sheet", singling out Blighty

> the EU-mandated nannycrap like speed limiters and lane assist.

Has not the UK adopted the same rules on speed limiters? Dunno about lane assist

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: From the "fact sheet", singling out Blighty

Th UK requires them to be fitted since July 2024. AFAIK the law doesn't require them to be activated. It's unclear how the EU rules which require them to upload data on speeding, limiter activation, etc. to the EU could apply, I don't know of any UK body that the information would be uploaded to, and sending the data to the EU could have legal problems.

I don't think that lane assist is mandatory, but cars will lose NCAP safety points if they don't have it installed and automatically activated.

[NXM]

Re: From the "fact sheet", singling out Blighty

I remember when nobody in the UK bought US cars because US manufacturers couldn't be arsed to make right hand drive ones and their performance was measured in gallons per mile. They usually had a low-compression V8 with the acceleration of a drugged slug.

After a while we were offered the PT Cruiser, so ugly it rivalled the Edsel. These days they're not quite as bad even though they're the size of buses, but I'd far rather buy a UK or Japanese car than a US one.

[Androgynous Cupboard]

Re: From the "fact sheet", singling out Blighty

The first time I ever drove in the US, a car in front started flashing one of its brake lights. Eventually I figured out that the brake lights served dual purpose as a turn indicator, presumably so the manufacturers could save a few dollars on some orange plastic and a second bulb.

[Jonathon Green]

Re: From the "fact sheet", singling out Blighty

“ After a while we were offered the PT Cruiser, so ugly it rivalled the Edsel.‘

To be fair if you bought a PT Cruiser[1] in Europe it was almost certainly built in Austria, and if you bought it in the USA it would have been built in Mexico…

[Dan 55]

Re: From the "fact sheet", singling out Blighty

The UK maintains non-science-based standards that severely restrict U.S. exports of safe, high-quality beef and poultry products.

Mmm, I just want me some of that US bird flu.

[Potemkine!]

Re: From the "fact sheet", singling out Blighty

Washed with chlorine, so tasteful!

[MachDiamond]

Re: From the "fact sheet", singling out Blighty

"Washed with chlorine, so tasteful!"

Until you see how they are farmed and you'd likely want them autoclaved as well.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: From the "fact sheet", singling out Blighty

Is that why some Americans, especially in some Southern States, have huge deep fat fryers that can take a whole chicken or turkey? The risk of killing yourself with a cooking oil fire is less than the risk of not fully (over)cooking the poultry?

[MachDiamond]

Re: From the "fact sheet", singling out Blighty

"Is that why some Americans, especially in some Southern States, have huge deep fat fryers that can take a whole chicken or turkey?"

I'm fine with paying more to get chickens from a farmer where they raise them on fields using a "chicken tractor". The chickens get moved to fresh land 2-3 times each day and get to forage while fertilizing the land as they go. There's a pig farmer not too far from there that rotates the pigs through several fields as the pigs turn everything over. It's about double the cost compared to buying at the grocery, but the difference is huge. I need to see about getting back on the rota. The pigs are usually completely booked. Tractor raised chickens are usually available all of the time but can be pre-ordered.

[Anonymous Coward]

Stupidity

Has real consequences

Behold.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Stupidity

Bummer indeed! Expecting the promised 200% tariffs on wine and liquors from Europe, I ordered me pallets full of Andres Baby Duck and Brights President Grande Réserve Canadian Champagne. Whatta my to do with this junk now?!?!

Make up your donut mind Orange Donald, puleaze!

[DancesWithPoultry]

Re: Stupidity

> Canadian Champagne.

Eh?

[Mitoo Bobsworth]

How 'bout that!

No tariffs for Russia, I noticed.

[herman]

Re: How 'bout that!

It is a minimum of 10% on everyone/everything. Countries with sensible politicians will negotiate things down.

[abend0c4]

Re: How 'bout that!

Countries with sensible politicians will negotiate things down

The tariff list specifically includes the Heard and McDonald Islands whose population consists entirely of penguins. It seems that we're already way past "sensible".

[Winkypop]

Re: How 'bout that!

Yes, but those penguins are well known left-wing trade unionists.

And, like communists, they all wear the same uniform!

[Benegesserict Cumbersomberbatch]

Re: How 'bout that!

He heard some of them were black, but identified as white.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: How 'bout that!

And they vote Democrat too.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: How 'bout that!

"The tariff list specifically includes the Heard and McDonald Islands whose population consists entirely of penguins. It seems that we're already way past "sensible"."

Maybe those penguins could teach some politicians about sense :-)

[Roland6]

Re: How 'bout that!

>” Countries with sensible politicians will negotiate things down.”

Where sensible means doing stuff that is favourable to Trump. Putin has effectively said to Trump, invade Greenland, the problem for Trump is that having shouted his mouth off about stopping the war in Ukraine, Putin’s unstated - the war in Ukraine will end once Ukraine is mine, leaves Trump looking a bit foolish.

[R Soul]

leaves Trump looking a bit foolish

When was he anything else?

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: How 'bout that!

"Countries with sensible politicians will negotiate things down."

Actually, countries with sensible politicians might well just sit tight for a little while and see what effect the backlash against inflation has.

[Roland6]

Re: How 'bout that!

Canada currently makes a nice case study here. In response to US tariffs being placed on goods from Canada, the market for US goods in Canada collapsed, especially alcohol products, with resellers refusing to restock US products. This effectively making the tariff Canada places on US alcohol irrelevant. Canada deciding to impose a 25% tariff was pure political show, for now. Although a future US administration is going to have to negotiate away those tariffs....

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: How 'bout that!

"the market for US goods in Canada collapsed"

"resellers refusing to restock US products"

Now, did the market organically collapse or was this a boycott by government (as most alcohol in Canada is distributed by the provincial govt) rather than retailers and/or consumers? I'm sure if I said the market for Bud Light collapsed you'd say something different.

Canada is also a poor example as they have trade barriers between the provinces. They are a very anti-competitive country.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: How 'bout that!

>Now, did the market organically collapse or was this a boycott by government

The media reports at the time, say it was organic, ie. people doing something off their own back rather than being told.

.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: How 'bout that!

False, it was the provincial govts

"Ontario Premier Doug Ford has ordered the Liquor Control Board of Ontario (LCBO) to strip its shelves of American products"

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ford-lcbo-tariffs-trump-1.7448423

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/local-leaders-call-for-more-action-u-s-tariffs-1.7448647

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/alberta-has-stopped-buying-u-s-booze-how-does-that-work-1.7477063

[Casca]

Re: How 'bout that!

Hard to sell something people is not buying but you keep on in your maga world.

[Mike VandeVelde]

Re: How 'bout that!

In BC they started with removing "red state" liquor in February:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/local-leaders-call-for-more-action-u-s-tariffs-1.7448647

The idea was that California did not vote for Trump and they make decent wine so we will keep that flowing. But Trump got more idiotic and so in March we got less discriminating and banned all US alcohol:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-bans-all-u-s-acohol-1.7479629

The best quote from the BC Premier:

"Now the reaction of many British Columbians, myself included, is if the president so interested in Canadian water, then we're gonna help him out by letting him keep his watery beer."

All a side show really. The actual consequences include possibilities like this:

"Eby also said his government was working with Ottawa over possible tariffs or an outright ban on U.S. thermal coal that is transported through British Columbia."

West coast ports in the USA will not handle gross dirty coal, so it all goes through Canada to Asia. We should absolutely be making a *lot* more money doing that for them, if we even want to do it at all.

[David Hicklin]

Re: How 'bout that!

> backlash against inflation has.

The inflation figures over the next few months along will a collapse of trade will be ...interesting.

I think most companies will sit tight as it takes > 4 years to build a brand new factory in a country where you have never manufactured before, let alone setting up the supply chains

[DancesWithPoultry]

Re: How 'bout that!

> No tariffs for Russia, I noticed.

To be fair, he shouldn't need to impose tariffs on a country he shouldn't be trading with anyway......

Oh.......

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: How 'bout that!

That's to be expected. Comrade Vlad has kompromat on Agent Orange.

[Excused Boots]

Re: How 'bout that!

"No tariffs for Russia, I noticed.”

His boss has ordered him not to!

[MachDiamond]

Re: How 'bout that!

"No tariffs for Russia, I noticed."

Sort of pointless as they are embargoed.

[Groo The Wanderer - A Canuck]

Remember: the suicidally stupid segment of the American population voted for mass inflation - blame them; Trump can't help being a moron, but people shouldn't have encouraged him.

[FF22]

They were all blinded by their hatred, racism and entitlement. It's not like Donald didn't tell them in advance most of what he actually did then, and he even plain out told them that he doesn't need them, just their votes. And they still voted for him, because they wanted more that other people ("liberals", people of different color, people from different countries, people with different xual preferences, etc) to suffer, than to follow their own financial, democratic, etc. interests.

[herman]

Liberals

Note that Liberals are interesting people like Marx, Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, Maduro and so on. These are people who fight for the liberty to tell you what to think and do. If you think Liberalism is some kind of utopia, then you still have much to learn about politics.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Liberals

I'm guessing you're a right wing American, or stupid (or both) if you think the people you listed were liberals - liberals don't tend to murder millions of their own people (specifically Pol Pot and Mao before anyone says Castro didn't)

I'd also suggest that Trump has more respect for the despots you named as he admires their approach to power (in the same way he does Putin) and would like to emulate their autocratic ways. He's already got the cruelty nailed.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Liberals

Why do US lefties who claim to be 'liberal' wave the hammer and sickle flag and/or wear Che t-shirts?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Liberals

It's fun pissing off the Orange ones

[Mr F&*king Grumpy]

Re: Liberals

You're clearly an American who has absolutely no idea what a "Liberal" is ... or indeed much else.

[Jan 0]

Re: Liberals

Few people in the USA have a clue about what left wing means in the rest of the world..

[NerryTutkins]

Re: Liberals

Curiously, the conservatives in the US have extremely liberal views about shagging porn stars while your mail order sex trafficked former hooker illegal immigrant wife is nursing the last of your batch of kids you've spawned with three different wives.

"live and let live"

"peoples private lives are not our concern"

etc.

Nice to know the UK isn't the only country with forelock tugging serfs.

[LogicGate]

Re: Liberals

"Note that Liberals are interesting people like Marx, Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, Maduro and so on. These are people who fight for the liberty to tell you what to think and do. If you think Liberalism is some kind of utopia, then you still have much to learn about politics."

Juist out of curiosity, can you please reference where and when Marx fought for the liberty to tell you what to think and do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Liberals

"when Marx fought for the liberty to tell you what to think and do"

His followers certainly did.

[LogicGate]

Re: Liberals

That is not the claim of the parent post. They VERY specifically made these claims about Marx. If guilt by followers was possible, then the Donald should be in jail now for Jan. 6. Acording to MAGA thinking this is not a thing.

[cmdrklarg]

Re: Liberals

"MAGA thinking" is not a thing.

[Citizen of Nowhere]

Re: Liberals

It is one thing: an oxymoron.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Liberals

Marx was a journalist. That alone would make him a suspect. And Engels owned a factory.

Neither of them were responsible of mass murder or calling for mass murder.

It is telling that the list of Left-Wing Extremists does not include Hugo Chaves, a former putchist and predecessor and mentor of Maduro, who became elected president and started anti-elite policies very much like the orange utang.

[herman]

Re: Liberals

Marx was not a pacifist. He held that the only way to get capitalists to convert to socialism was through a violent overthrow.

[Neil Barnes]

Re: Liberals

Have you not seen 'A Night at the Opera'?

Oh, not _that_Marx...

[Schultz]

Re: Liberals

Herman is hilarious. Labeling Marx, Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, Maduro as liberals. Maybe some education is required to figure out when and where to use the word liberal.

Etymology:.The term "liberal" originates from the Latin word "liberalis," which means "pertaining to a free man or citizen."

Merrtiam Webster: Liberal can be traced back to the Latin word liber (meaning “free”).

Oxford Leaners Dictionary: willing to understand and respect other people’s behaviour, opinions, etc., especially when they are different from your own; believing people should be able to choose how they behave.

Cambridge Dictionary: respecting and allowing many different types of beliefs or behavior.

Hope you all learned something. But maybe the problem with Herman is not ignorance about the word liberal, but ignorance about Marx, Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, and Maduro. Trying to herd these guys into a single category indicates a massive ignorance about history and politics.

[Casca]

Re: Liberals

education dont stick on people like Herman.

[Roland6]

Re: Liberals

>” Maybe some education is required to figure out when and where to use the word liberal.”

But you will only know that if you had been educated by a bunch of “lefties”. As we know Trump and mini Trump (aka Musk) are busy defunding US education because it is full of lefties and evolutionists…

[herman]

Re: Liberals

Judging by the thumb ratio, there are almost ten times more retired/unemployed/idle/lazing Liberals than others lurking on the forum.

[Casca]

Re: Liberals

Ah yes. Thats the conclusion you take from thart. I'm not surprised.

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: Liberals

It's more that you come across as rather parochial in your views with a child-like understanding of Political and Economic basics. Combined with a position of unwarranted and unevidenced superiority.

[CrazyOldCatMan]

Re: Liberals

It's more that you come across as rather parochial in your views with a child-like understanding of Political and Economic basics. Combined with a position of unwarranted and unevidenced superiority

In short, a typical US Republican.

[Patrician]

Re: Liberals

That is a really uneducated comment; none of those you listed are "liberals".

[Anonymous Coward]

"They were all blinded by their hatred,"

Very much so, which is why we are seeing all the destruction of private property by the entitled US political left as they have a temper tantrum from not getting their way.

But people like Bernie and AOC should be happy. The UK vehicle exports to the US are largely luxury brands like Jaaags and Rangies so this extra 25% is just making the wealthy pay their fair share. Same with booze. The average Trump voting redneck isn't sipping a 30 year old Laphroaig. If you're paying close to $1000 for a bottle of booze to impress your friends when they come for dinner in your multi million Beverly Hills mansion you can afford a few extra $$.

[Sorry that handle is already taken.]

I also blame everyone who didn't vote.

[Anonymous Coward]

Shoulda had a better candidate! It appears that what us sensible people on the right thought was happening to the Dems in 2024 was actually correct.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/barack-obama-kamala-harris-nomination-new-book-jonathan-allen_n_67ed0258e4b0923ef8b4b05f

It was pretty obvious to anyone not blinded by Democrat dogma that Joe's endorsement of Kamala Harris was a huge middle finger to the DNC for forcing him out (actually more likely a pissed off Jill getting Joe to endorse her out of spite for that was done) and that secretly the Democrat high ups really didn't want this.

[codejunky]

@AC

"Shoulda had a better candidate! It appears that what us sensible people on the right thought was happening to the Dems in 2024 was actually correct."

No self reflection or objective criticism of the Democrats is to be allowed or tolerated. Facts must not get in the way of feelings nor analysis of why the unwashed masses dare question what their benevolent overlords did and the ends always justified the means.

Even when the dems were stabbing at each other nobody should pay attention to it. Now if only they could figure out why they lost.

[MachDiamond]

Re: @AC

"Now if only they could figure out why they lost."

That's easy. Between two extremely poor choices, the Orange Menace had .0000001% better marketing.

[codejunky]

Re: @AC

@MachDiamond

"That's easy. Between two extremely poor choices, the Orange Menace had .0000001% better marketing."

He also amusingly spend a lot less than she did on that better marketing that turned almost the whole voting map red.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: @AC

Depends how you calculate it. Should we add in the whole $4B for Twitter or just some percentage if it. Likewise, Truth Social. When you own the social media, you get lots of free advertising ;-)

[MachDiamond]

Re: @AC

"He also amusingly spend a lot less than she did on that better marketing that turned almost the whole voting map red."

When you have better, you don't need to spend as much. Kamala was her own worst enemy. If she had a really good speech writer and stayed on script, she may have won. The best CEO's that make presentations will hire coaches to work with them on the performance.

It's all about sincerity. When you can fake that, you've got it made.

[Anonymous Coward]

Better candidate?

In what way is the orange utang a better president? How could Kamela have feasibly done a worse job?

The man is driving the US into a hard recession with serious economic hardship. Taking down the rest of the world with it.

The voters, including Republicans, preferred the policies of the Democrat candidate when asked blinded for party, but they rather voted for the candidate whose plans they didn't want.

Probably because he is an older white (orange?) male.

[GNU SedGawk]

If you have Genocide vs Genocide

People will stay home and not vote for Genocide.

Every single Democrat voted knowingly for Genocide and only the people who refused to vote for Genocide have any decency.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: If you have Genocide vs Genocide

"People will stay home and not vote for Genocide."

So, instead of choosing for the lesser evil, they got the worse evil, with worse genocide. Oh, and they lost the chance to have a future opportunity to vote against genocide.

Brilliant strategy, I must say.

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: If you have Genocide vs Genocide

You can vote for Genocide, you don't get to pretend you are not voting for Genocide.

Trump is not different from Biden with respect to Humanity, that the world can see the US as a rapacious rogue state, doesn't entail a change to US policy.

Bluntly I prefer Trump to Biden, I prefer my racists uncloaked in virtue.

There is nothing worse than Genocide, that you rationalise Trump as worse, is a reflection on your lack of humanity, and deluded belief that the US Empire is a democracy, so that it matter who the figurehead is.

The advent of Trump is likely to be hugely beneficial for the world, we all are being stripped of the Lie, that the US is anything but a Mafia State terrorising the world demanding tribute from its vassals while promoting White supremacy,.

Soz people won't quietly acquiesces, the Fascist nature of the US was under Biden, it's unchanged under Trump.

Literally the only difference is Optics - you want to pretend the US is not a mafia organisation, Trump doesn't care for the pretence. You want to pretend the US use of force is justified rather than the state Terrorism it manifestly is, Soz.

Trump didn't pass the Hauge invasion act.

Trump didn't build gitmo

Trump didn't pass 100-1 laws.

Trump is an chump who is utterly inadequate when compared to the US presidents who've damaged humanity - He's going to Liberate the world from US occupation, one Tariff at a time.

Trump is Biden without the Polish, that you think otherwise shows you to utterly deluded.

Credible Allegation of Sexual assaulting including Rape.

Decades of attested history of advocating Segregation and support for explicit Racists.

Antipathy to Women's reproductive Rights.

Devoted anti-Palestinians Racist and advocate for Genocide Ethnic Cleansing.

Veto's Security Council attempts to stop Genocide.

Supports, Trains, Funds Terrorist groups with US TaxPayer Funds.

That you think either Trump or Biden is running the show, or that Trump's vulgarity and lack of filter makes him worse than Biden or Obama, or Clinton, or Regan, or LBJ is delusional.

Your country is worst in the peer group for infant mortality, literacy rates, health outcomes, imprisonment rates.

That's not Trump - that USA - the facist shithole that invented the medical bankruptcy and arrests students for protesting Genocide, Women for abortion.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: If you have Genocide vs Genocide

The real question is:

Did Palestinians benefitted from your actions?

I think they have doubts.

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: If you have Genocide vs Genocide

Let me ask you, Not voting for the Democrats meant Punishing Genocide supporters. Do you think Donnie's Tariffs affect you or the Palestinians more?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: If you have Genocide vs Genocide

The Orange utang support for ethnic cleansing of the Gaza and West Bank will affect the Palestinians more than the tariffs will punish us

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: If you have Genocide vs Genocide

Genocide's Joe's support for Genocide didn't come with costs. Don Tariff cost some very rich Zionists a lot of money. He'll torch US "Soft Power" and potentially tank the Zionist Lobby globally.

Trump delivered a ceasefire which the US backed Zionist State Terror group repeated violated, but it did lead to the reduction in the death of Palestinians and the entry of some food and medical supplies, more importantly, since October 2023 thousands of Men, Women and Children were released from the Torture Dungeons of the Zionist State Terrorist group; These poor people kidnapped and tortured in the most brutal and degrading fashion were liberated from their unimaginable ordeal. https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2025/03/more-human-can-bear-israels-systematic-use-sexual-reproductive-and-other

The Trump Ceasefire saw 183 Palestinians were released, many of whom showed signs of torture and starvation. ​Many of whom were women and children. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/2/1/palestinians-released-by-israel-show-signs-of-torture-starvation

I'm sure if it was your mother or your sister - or even just someone who you could see as a human with intrinsic worth you'd understand that liberating them from the unimaginable hell was worth it.

Biden and the Democratic party are the Party of Genocide. Trump is only as bad, and the US is far more dependant on soft power than you realise.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: If you have Genocide vs Genocide

"He'll torch US "Soft Power" and potentially tank the Zionist Lobby globally."

Summary:

You sacrifice the lives of the Palestinians to satisfy your desire for revenge.

The long term results of your "strategy" are that the Palestinians are dead or fugitives and Israel is hurt.

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: Summary - Genocide Joe is the same as Genocide Trump.

Biden spent over a year showing the world that Genocide was a Democratic party value. I'm sure you'd recoil from voting for the NSDAP based on the idealogical and practical support for ongoing Genocide. Strangely you don't see brown Palestinians as having Intrinsic worth to invoke the same reaction - Millions of Americans are better people than you, and refuse to vote for Genocide.

The Genocide is being carried out by the US, who are going to continue until their proxy US Backed Zionist State Terror group is dismantled.

You are going to be made poorer, and you will materially suffer for not doing something to prevent Genocide.

That you lack any capacity to engage morally or on a human level, with the US's Genocide of Palestinians is tragic, but they aren't dependant on the sympathy of the ignorant or inhumane.

People liberated from US backed Zionist State Terror group captivity are no longer being raped and Tortured by Zionist filth. I understand that means nothing to you.

People got food and medicine and respite from the Slaughter, which means nothing to you, since you don't seem them as People. They liberated their children, their men, their women, and they did it despite the US, its local terror proxy militia Zionist State, UK surveillance flights. So you didn't stop them but a cost is being imposed on you

Ultimately if you want to support NAZI Ukraine and Genocide in Palestine - its Harris

If you don't want to support NAZI Ukraine and but you do support Genocide in Palestine - its Trump.

You wanted to continue the Genocide - you are continuing the Genocide - Be happy, you voted for Genocide, and you got your wish.

Bluntly the world sees the US and US backed Zionist State Terror group for the State Terrorist that they are. Dismantling that soft power is more effective than attacking the Hard Power which the US has in spades. It's working. How's your pocket book?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Summary - Genocide Joe is the same as Genocide Trump.

I don't know why you single out Sleepy Joe, Ursula Von Der Leyen very quickly came out in support of Israel. Not surprising as she is from the global bankster class.

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: Summary - Genocide Joe is the same as Genocide Trump.

The concrete helmet NAZI Princess is a truly vile person but essentially this is a US Genocide - it stops instantly if the US desired.

They are US Weapons, US Weapons Platforms, US Avionics - US Backed Zionist State Terror group is entirely dependant on Air supremacy which the US maintains.

The UK provides 60% of the flights for ISTAR but this stops when the US withdraw support, see Ukraine.

The Weapons come from the US, more importantly look at the diplomatic cover given by the US.

Genocide Joe is responsible for the Gaza Genocide, he could have prevented it, instead he armed, funded, nurtured and went on TV to say that babies were beheaded, a disgusting piece of atrocity propaganda manufacturing consent for Genocide, he was an active willing participant as a life-long dedicated racist.

Tens of thousands of children have been beheaded because of Genocide Joe. He single handed made Trump the open Nazi salute space Karen Employing Fascist, the less Racist choice.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Summary - Genocide Joe is the same as Genocide Trump.

"he could have prevented it"

And Hamas could have not murdered anyone on Oct 7th, and all the prior occasions.

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: Summary - Genocide Joe is the same as Genocide Trump.

Palestine is under occupation by the US Backed Zionist State Terror group, the Genocide perpetrated on the Palestinian people has ebbed and flowed over the last hundred and twenty years of the Zionist campaign of Colonial Terrorism but it's always been described and recongised as Terrorism.

A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants (240 men, women, and children) and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.

The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.

Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model.

During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.

The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.

Discrepancies Seen

The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a "Leader State" is the goal.

In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin's efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin.

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: Summary - Genocide Joe is the same as Genocide Trump.

In 1851, correspondence between Lord Stanley, whose father became British Prime Minister the following year, and Benjamin Disraeli, who became Chancellor of the Exchequer alongside him, records Disraeli's proto-Zionist views: "He then unfolded a plan of restoring the nation to Palestine—said the country was admirably suited for them—the financiers all over Europe might help—the Porte is weak—the Turks/holders of property could be bought out—this, he said, was the object of his life..." Coningsby was merely a feelermy views were not fully developed at that time—since then all I have written has been for one purpose. The man who should restore the Hebrew race to their country would be the Messiah—the real saviour of prophecy!" He did not add formally that he aspired to play this part, but it was evidently implied. He thought very highly of the capabilities of the country, and hinted that his chief object in acquiring power here would be to promote the return".[22][23] 26 years later, Disraeli wrote in his article entitled "The Jewish Question is the Oriental Quest" (1877) that within fifty years, a nation of one million Jews would reside in Palestine under the guidance of the British.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Zionism

So a hundred years prior to the Zionist State Terrorist group campaign of murder - it looks like an genocide is contemplated to dispossess the people living there in Britain's imperial aim.

According to the author Nadim Rouhana, “the essence of the encounter therefore took place between a group of people living in their homeland and a group of people who arrived from other parts of the world guided by an ideology that claimed the same homeland as exclusively theirs.”[8] Zionism in Rouhana's eye revolved around a system of exclusion in which Zionist arrived and stole the lands they resided on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%E2%80%93Crane_Commission

European Racists got US Arms, Enslaved, Murdered, Robbed, Raped, Dispossessed People from Western Asia. You are the perpetrator not the victim, you will never be in the right or the victor, you're merely the one with more guns - for now - the clock is ticking because Zionism is a failure - https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-04-04/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/looking-back-israeli-historian-tom-segev-thinks-zionism-was-a-mistake/00000195-fd06-df89-a39f-fd37929f0000

The vast majority of people were murdered by US backed Zionist State Terrorist group members use of Tanks, Helicopters and Airstrikes which has been extensively reported

[1] https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-07-07/ty-article-magazine/.premium/idf-ordered-hannibal-directive-on-october-7-to-prevent-hamas-taking-soldiers-captive/00000190-89a2-d776-a3b1-fdbe45520000

[2] https://thegrayzone.com/2023/11/21/haaretz-grayzone-conspiracy-israeli-festivalgoers/

[3] https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/watch-debunking-israels-mass-rape-propaganda

[4] https://www.ajiunit.com/investigation/october-7/

At this point, you might say the resistance rescued them from US Backed Zionist State Terror group

Interview with the Israeli channel 12, Chen Almog Goldstein said that “The guards who held us (in Gaza) were protecting us with their bodies from the bombing.”

https://www.palestinechronicle.com/our-guards-in-gaza-protected-us-from-bombing-with-their-bodies-freed-israeli-captive/

Her testimony brings to light the targeted assault on civilians by the Israeli army, including her partner Adi, who was killed in the attack. Dagan vividly describes the terrifying moments, including her futile attempt to stem the bleeding from Adi’s wound, ultimately lying in a pool of blood beside him.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231211-survivor-of-kibbutz-beeri-incident-reveals-harrowing-details-of-israeli-forces-assault/

It also seems the US backed Zionist State Terror group repeatedly tried to murder the captives to avoid releasing Palestinian children from the right to rape dungeons [

Protesters, politicians and TV commentators in Israel are defending the right of soldiers to mistreat and even rape Palestinian prisoners in detention. The show of support follows the gang rape of a male detainee by a group of Israeli reservists.

https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/8/13/israeli-protesters-rally-for-the-right-to-rape-prisoners

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: Summary - Genocide Joe is the same as Genocide Trump.

Let me quote you the words of Polish Atheist Zionist Terrorist Ben-Gurion.

"We have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? Who would accept that?" - David Ben-Gurion, The Jewish Paradox : A personal memoir (1978) by Nahum Goldmann (translated by Steve Cox), p. 99.

Or more explicitly

Ben-Gurion also clearly stated that it was the Zionists who were the aggressors, at least from the political point of view. He stated in the contexts of the First Palestinian Intifada in 1938, :

"When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves ---- that is only half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves. . . . But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict, which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves." (Righteous Victims, p. 652)

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Summary - Genocide Joe is the same as Genocide Trump.

"Ultimately if you want to support NAZI Ukraine and Genocide in Palestine - its Harris"

I see, you did not want to help Palestinians, you wanted to help Putin?

All your rantings might be true, but your strategy won't save a single Palestinian. Rational action might have helped, when not now maybe in the long term, but you prefer revenge, or Putin (or both).

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: Summary - Genocide Joe is the same as Genocide Trump.

1) It doesn't look like Putin needs the help.

2) The people fighting Ukrainian Nazis are 100% in the right in my book, being they Fascist Ukrainian Nationalists in occupied Kiev, or Fascist Ukrainian Nationalists in occupied Palestine.

I'm not a fan of Fascist Ukrainian Nationalists.

3) as far as I can reasonably conclude, the take by https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-john-mearsheimer-blames-the-us-for-the-crisis-in-ukraine

most closely accords with observable reality. The example of Al Qadia(Pakistan/) and Al Nusra front(Syria) are fairly strongly documented evidence of the US working with Terrorist groups as proxies against non-US subservient states. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio - seems to strongly suggest the US is just fine working with Fascists as proxies against Russia. This is a theme include in Latin America, so it's not exactly stretching the bounds of credibility to say the people aligned with the Apartheid regime and the head choppers in Saudi, might not really be all that fussed about human rights in Ukraine, and thus might have another motivation.

I'm fairly sure that everybody is lying here, but there are some observable facts.

A star wars clip getting broadcast as news was not an accident.

Okay - lets say it was a "test asset", And "misidentifying" this brave Ukrainian girl standing up to the Evil Russian, https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-ukraine-russia-idUSL1N2V31B9 - Funny enough when it became clear she was someone oppressed by a US aligned state, her picture faded from view.

But that was a mistake too, But the warship https://greekcitytimes.com/2022/03/01/fake-news-ghost-of-kyiv/

There is a lot of people lying to us right now, and the balance of evidence, which I've cited, much of which comes from western media organizations who seems to have completely disavowed their own stories,

For example the bbc makes a pull quote in this recent piece where essentially they say Putin is making it all up the NAZI are exaggerated etc. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-60853404

This is the quote to show Putin is full of it

"A gang of neo-nazis and drug addicts who settled in Kiev and took the entire Ukrainian people hostage"

- even allowing for translation, that's an interesting an nuanced statement which accords with reality.

A. Firstly Azov/C14/Adair/Right Sector are clearly identifiable as a "A gang of neo-nazis and drug addicts". https://www.mintpressnews.com/ukraine-jewish-president-zelensky-made-peace-neo-nazi-paramilitaries/279862/

B. Secondly Those gangs have taken on an official function in the Ukrainian state, including senior positions in the Armed forces and Police in Kiev.

C. Finally, the President doesn't have any power over them.

That's quite a lot, but they are clearly falsifiable propositions,

A. https://williamrisch.wordpress.com/2014/02/07/dmytro-yarosh-leader-of-right-sector-when-80-of-the-country-does-not-support-the-regime-there-cant-be-a-civil-war/

B. "...the defence ministry even made the group’s leader an official adviser..."

https://www.france24.com/en/20150904-ulraine-right-sector-pravyy-sektor-paramilitary-eastern-war-neo-nazi-patriots-revolutionnar

C. https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/im-not-a-loser-zelensky-clashes-with-veterans-over-donbas-disengagement.html

So many juicy details for a observant eye

Use of private dwellings as military bases by the Ukraine militias.

The locals not wanting them there, the militias using the locals as human shields..

The president being unable to control them.

So okay, on the other side -the story is Putin is a madman who wants to have a big empire, and that's supposed to be the credible side?

The Israeli press of which I'm not a fan, but they suggest these people are bunch of racist degenerates.

So do others.

"Concerns were raised by a group of more than 40 human rights activists who filed a petition with Israel's High Court of Justice demanding the cessation of the arms deal. According to the Israeli newspaper Haaretz[1], the petitioners have argued that these weapons serve forces that openly espouse a neo-Nazi ideology and cite evidence that the right-wing Azov militia, whose members are part of Ukraine's armed forces, and are supported by the country's ministry of internal affairs, is using these weapons."

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20180710-rights-groups-petition-israel-to-end-arms-sale-to-neo-nazi-group/

[1] https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2018-07-09/ty-article/rights-groups-demand-israel-stop-arming-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine/0000017f-e080-d7b2-a77f-e3870e1c0000

So what is going on? because this seems rather like the Russians are helping a smaller state who is under attack and fighting for their independence against a bunch of fascists who have basically taken the country hostage.

Lets say that is not the case, why does the press seems to have completely changed it's mind to accord with the US foreign policy position of the day?

compared to Say "Neo-Nazi groups recruit Britons to fight in Ukraine" https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/02/neo-nazi-groups-recruit-britons-to-fight-in-ukraine

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Summary - Genocide Joe is the same as Genocide Trump.

"The people fighting Ukrainian Nazis are 100% in the right in my book"

So all this was not about supporting the Palestinians in their plight. This was all about helping Putin in his attempt to conquer a neighboring country.

That also explains why you are not concerned about the ethnic cleansing (and genocide) in Ukraine, but you are very vocal and counter productive for Palestinians (Israel is an ally of Putin).

Thanks for clearing that up.

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: Summary - Genocide Joe is the same as Genocide Trump.

I'm not pro-Russian, I'm anti-Nazi. The facts are indisputable hence you chose not to dispute anything instead you come up with some piffle.

There are Nazis in Ukraine supported by the US prior to Trump. It's darkly ironic that the Employer of openly Nazi saluting Space Karen, is the one who breaks off funding the Ukrainian Nazis in Kiev, but he at least is consistent in his support for Ukrainian Nazis in Occupied Palestine.

There is a Genocide happening in Palestine, there is a Proxy War happening in Ukraine, which followed the Coup in 2014.

I've followed both, and my sympathies are with the Ukrainians of the East, who have been attacked by the Banderite filth supported by the US.

The Genocide in Palestine is more pressing since the US has admitted Ukraine was a proxy war - "Secret History" https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/03/29/world/europe/us-ukraine-military-war-wiesbaden.html and Tokens get spent.

Ukraine nationalists march in Kiev to honour Bandera

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30655184

Those poor Ukranians being kidnapped by the Nazis and forced to die under Russian artillery so the great grift can continue

Ukrainian conscription officers kidnapped a 14-year-old during an attempt to forcibly enlist him with the military.

According to the Bessarabia Info website, the teenager was walking to his friend's house in the village of Priozernoye, Odessa, when a white minivan pulled up next to him. Four officers masked in balaclavas jumped him, pressed a rifle onto his head, and forced him into the van.

As the kid fought back, the officers restrained him, tied his hands with plastic bands, and beat him up with an assault rifle. After asking him what age he was, the officers refused to believe the teenager was actually 14 until they obtained his passport and confirmed it.

He was thrown out of the van almost immediately after they confirmed his age and was threatened to not report the incident to Ukrainian authorities. However, the incident made its way to the police after the minor informed his school teachers of what happened.

https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/ukrainian-officers-kidnap-14-y-o-amid-forced-conscription-dr

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Genocide is genocide

"I'm not pro-Russian, I'm anti-Nazi."

Then I would suggest you look at the ideas of the current Russian elite. I fail to see much difference.

But you seem to be oblivious (or pretend to be) to the fact that the Israeli genocidal strategy against the Gaza is exactly the same strategy as Putin wages on Ukraine. The exact same targets and policies are applied. The same strategy, btw, Putin used in Syria. The Israeli could have copied it from Putin for all I see.

It is just that Netanyahu is successful and Putin is not.

If you really are just opposing "genocide", you would look at the actions and the victims, not at the origin of the victim or perpetrator.

Even genocide of Nazi's (if such a thing exists) is genocide.

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: Genocide is genocide

You are deluded.

Palestine is a defenceless mass of caged innocents, the overwhelming majority are literal children.

Polish and Ukrainian terrorists are murdering Palestinian children using American Guns. American Planes, Americans Tanks. They are starving children to death, raping doctors to death in an industrialised process that has no parallels. The overwheming primary colours of the Palestinians being Genocides by the utterly cartoonishly depraved US backed Zionist State Terrorist group, couldn't be further removed from the situation where Ukraine willingly entered a proxy war against Russia trusting the US.

Ukraine has an Army, Air support, Tanks, Artillery, Air defence, and a logistics tail that reaches into the US. The Russians are bent on dismantling the regime in Kiev, as they quite rightly won't tolerate the existence of Nazis, having the history that Russians have, I'm utterly sympathetic to the intolerance for racial supremacy.

The Russian Federation is not a Nazi regime, with no credible evidence to suggest otherwise, you haven't cited any, and I've seen none. The Ukraine however has a history with Bandera, those people exist, and really run the Army. Nazi's should be given a fair trial and judged accordingly. I'm fairly sure that mostly these are capital offences but people deserve a fair trial; a not unreasonably overcast wall of sound construction; a blindfold of adequate opacity, and a suitable selection of smoking cessation pamphlets printed in braile for accessibility. I'd offer you a fag, but 'elf n' safety, what can you do.

Some of the people are reported to have done gruesome things to their fellow Ukrainians

Once condemned by Ukrainian officials and imprisoned for sadistic torture and the rape of minors, leaders of the notorious Tornado Battalion are free under Volodymyr Zelensky’s orders.

After banning virtually his entire political opposition, publishing a blacklist of foreign journalists and academics accused of advancing “Russian propaganda,” and ramming through a law exempting 70% of Ukrainians from workplace protections, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenksy has freed from prison fascist militants convicted of some of the most heinous crimes the country has seen since World War II.

According to a July 11 report in Ukrainian media, Ruslan Onishenko, commander of the now-disbanded Tornado Battalion, was freed as part of President Zelensky’s scheme to release prisoners with combat experience. Along with an unwavering commitment to fascism, Onishenko is known as a psychopathic sadist who was involved in sexually assaulting children, brutally torturing prisoners, and murder.

Onishenko’s release follows a February 27 order by Zelensky to free other convicted former Tornado members like Danil “Mujahed” Lyashuk, a fanatic from Belarus who has openly emulated ISIS and boasted of torturing captives for sheer enjoyment. According to Zelensky‘s decree, prisoners with combat experience would be allowed to “compensate for their guilt” by fighting in the “hottest spots.”

https://thegrayzone.com/2022/07/30/zelensky-militants-convicted-child-rape-torture-military/

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Genocide is genocide

"The Russians are bent on dismantling the regime in Kiev [1], as they quite rightly won't tolerate the existence of Nazis, having the history that Russians have, I'm utterly sympathetic to the intolerance for racial supremacy.[1]"

So you consider genocide justified if you hate the victims?

Just as I thought.

[1] You obviously do not read the opinions of the Russian support base of Putin.

[2] The dismantling of the regime in Mariupol looked a lot like the war on terror in Gaza city.

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: Genocide is genocide

interesting you call the behaviour of Russia against an army with Tanks "Genocide" but the starving of children, the booming of hospitals, the open statements of Genocidal Intent " a war on Terror"

Genocide is not justified, the actions of Russia in prosecuting the SMO it's barely a war, have a look at the Chechen wars are gentle. The Nazis that you are defending, and the US backed Zionist State Terrorist group are ideologically and in some cases literally the same people, since the first Zionists colons slithered out of Odessa.

The Genocide of Palestine is Zionism's death throes, it's finally thrashing around to unleash it's bile, but make no mistake, it's dying, just as Nazi Ukraine will be dismantled and reconstituted as a denazied, disarmed, landlocked rump state, the Zionist Entity will dissolve into a free and liberated Palestine.

The trials of the Zionist State Terror group will be televised, people will queue up to watch the defence case for the Zionist Entity, wondering could they be less convincing than the last.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Genocide is genocide

I look at actions not words.

What Russia is doing in Ukraine, Israel in Gaza, Sudan in Darfur, and China onto the Uighur can all be classified as "genocide".

When the victims can fight back, that does not make it less genocide. Every policy can fail, and Russia is historically very, very good at failing. But they have a long history of attempting genocide, even though they are often not very successful when there is any organized resistance. And they have tried before in Ukraine, using the same arguments.

Genocide is genocide and I am not going to argue which genocide is "good" and which is "bad" with someone sprouting propaganda from a genocidal actor.

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: Genocide is genocide

You are deluded.

Firstly Russia won. It won on the first day the CokeHead Prez decided to Trust the Yanks.

Secondly Russia are in the right here, Ukraine's Nazis are not the good guys, they like the US backed Zionist State Terror group are criminal scum who must be brought to justice, and their racist idelogical underpinnings brought into the light and disinfected. Racial supremacist leading to violent extremism is not tolerable, nor is it going to be allowed to exist, it like Zionism will be eliminated.

Thirdly Half the people fight are Ukrainians, this is Ukrainians vs Ukrainians - they've been fighting since 2014 - The Eastern Ukrainians are the real Ukraine, not the pretenders from the Austro-Hungarian Empire who spit on their heritage and dishonour their fallen.

US backed Zionist State Terrorist group's genocide in occupied Palestine is a televised livestreamed holocaust.

Ukraine is a minor armed conflict between two State parties, it's minor in that it's largely confined to the Eastern Border Regions as it's essentially a Civil war resulting from the 2014 coup, one side of the civil war has joined the Russian Federation for protection from Ukrainian fascist nationalists intent on exterminating anybody other than "Racially Pure Ukrainians". It's not a Genocide, and prosecuting Nazis are considered to be a good thing. I fully support the prosecution, conviction, and punishment of Nazis up and including capital punishment.

Sudan is fighting another Proxy conflict where the US is funnel arms through the UAE to the RSF, because it serves the interests of the Zionist State Terror group to have an unstable Sudan on Egypt's southern Border. That's a brutal conflict with Genocidal features, I'd say the markers of Genocidal intent so flowing in occupied Palestine from the lowest to the highest Zionist State Terror group representative are absent, but given the history, that's more arguable.

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: Summary - Genocide Joe is the same as Genocide Trump.

The Genocide perpetrated by Biden makes the Democrats the same as the NSDAP - European racists US backed Zionist State terror group holds millions of people in a concentration camp where it inflicts conditions calculated to make life impossible and uses Lethal gases to murder starving children, the innocent and infirm.

However, Michael Sfard, an Israeli human rights lawyer and expert in international law, told +972 and Local Call: “Even if the bombs releasing the gas are conventional and the gas is only a byproduct, the deliberate use of this ‘side effect’ as a method of warfare violates prohibitions outlined in the laws of armed conflict. The use of toxic or asphyxiating gas in combat contravenes the provisions of the Chemical Weapons Convention and longstanding international declarations predating it, and is classified under the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court as a war crime.”

Sarah Harrison, a senior analyst at the International Crisis Group and a former Pentagon lawyer who advised U.S. armed forces, affirmed that the intentional use of carbon monoxide as a weapon is illegal under customary international law. While bunker-buster bombs are not outlawed per se, “if the intent is to only use the conventional weapon as a device to transport what is otherwise a chemical weapon, then that would be, in my opinion, an illegal use,” she told +972 and Local Call. “There are lots of lawful weapons you can use unlawfully.”

https://www.972mag.com/tunnels-hamas-lethal-gas-bombs-gaza

You can vote for Genocide, Millions of Americans are better people than you and regardless of your insistent attempts to ignore the central issue, will not vote for Nazis. Ukraine is stuffed to the Gills with Nazis, so it's unsurprising you hold both positions.

The Democratic party and Trump are identical venal racists, there is nothing to choose between them on issues of substance. How is the current White House press spokesperson less honest than Matt Miller?

What US foreign policy position has changed under someone who employs open Nazi Saluters? None - no changes were needed to supporting Fascist dictatorships in the Middle East, denying rights to Millions of people so the US can steal their resources. Literally the only difference is the Optics. Trump is new money so he's not in on the old money weapons contracts grift in Ukraine, so he's pulling the plug until he gets a taste, hence the UK and EU losing their shit at the idea of the gravy train ending.

Genocide is a red line for decent people. Zionism is a redline for decent people. That you are unbothered, and think - so what, it's going to be the same anyway and Trump's a putz, reflects poorly on you.

If you would vote for Hitler, feel fine voting for the Democrats or Trump. If not then you shouldn't have voted for either.

The only person who delivered a respite for the Palestinians was Trump, that he did it to undermine Biden is not really the point, the fact is plain this happened because of Biden, it continued because of Biden, and Biden is responsible for the destruction of the US's democratic facade. Trump didn't add voters, the decent people didn't vote Blue. They never will again.

Trump is basically Biden but honest. Why was Biden's sexual assault not a disqualifying matter - the support for segregation, the open racism, the enthusiastic support for denying people rights based on their ethnic group while enthusiastically supporting white supremacy? Why is the healthcare outcomes, the homeless people, the woeful infrastructure?

[Benegesserict Cumbersomberbatch]

I want to know where the Tea Party went.

"No taxation without representation" was their cry as they drunkenly hurled as-yet-untaxed English tea into Boston Harbour.

Here we see taxes imposed by royal decree, unmitigated by any judicial or legislative oversight. The USA now stands for the very things it revolted against 249 years ago. They should just repeal the Declaration of Independence and become the eleventh--sixtieth provinces of Canada. At least then they would get some sane gun laws.

[Anonymous Coward]

At least then they would get some sane gun laws.

And universal, affordable healthcare.

[R Soul]

"but people shouldn't have encouraged him."

To be fair, he encouraged them first.

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh dear....

...as we're supplying very specialised parts in the UK to a certain US car company, because no one in the states can actually make it. Well, they're fucked even more.

Sure a US company can do it, just got to invest a few million dollars in equipment. Should get their money back in a decade or so.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Oh dear....

We supply software, and sell it as a product (not a service). I’ve no idea if it’s going to be subject to tarrifs for our US customers, but I guess it’s their problem not ours.

[Spazturtle]

Re: Oh dear....

Normally software is sold as a licence and not goods. You buy a licence to use the software and not a copy of the software (which you could re-sell). So if you have a competent legal team your software should not be subject to tariffs.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Oh dear....

If it's sold as a product on physical media, I not like to bet on that. The tariff police on the border will just see the physical product and slap 10% on. Although hopefully, though he said "product", it's a download with a perpetual licence and should be ok for now.

[NerryTutkins]

Re: Oh dear....

The problem is, why would anyone invest billions when the US policies are so erratic and half baked, they could be cancelled tomorrow, or you build your factory and they then decide they don't like foreigners owning successful factories either?

Better to head for the exits, which it appears the stock market investors there have already figured out.

[Roland6]

Re: Oh dear....

I suspect many in the US will, like TSMC, be making noises about investment to avoid being made a target, but actually doing very little as they know in a few short years there will be a new occupier of the White House…

[R Soul]

Re: Oh dear....

Even if TSMC is serious about building semiconductor factories in Trumpworld (unlikely), it'll take them 5-10 years to produce anything from those new plants. Which don't yet exist on paper BTW. Assuming the countries in the global supply chain which have just had tariffs slapped on them play nice. And China doesn't disrupt the export of rare earth minerals to the US to boost its own semiconductor industry.

[herman]

Econ 101

It is economics 101. Import duties encourage local production. Europe and Canada have VAT and GST, which is more than 20% and exports are zero rated - it has the same effect as import duties, but the news reporters and opposition politicians pretend not to know that.

[herman]

Re: Econ 101

And then there are many kinds of harbour charges. Some are per vessel, some per tonne, some per container. In some cases these fees reach a quarter million bucks per ship - per day. Of course the leaders of various countries are now crying about the effect on globalism- well, that is the whole idea.

[DancesWithPoultry]

Re: Econ 101

> And then there are many kinds of harbour charges

You do realise harbour charges pay for the harbour operations and cargo handling, lights, buoyage and other aids to navigation, vessel traffic services (that's ships "air traffic control"), coastguard and pollution control services? Or do you expect ships, not to need these services....... Bearing in mind the large container ships operating at our ports are 1/4 mile long with a capacity of well over 14,000 TEU containers.

To be blunt, I'm curious how it is possible for somebody to be so thick.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Econ 101

To be blunt, I'm curious how it is possible for somebody to be so thick.

A combination of the American educational system, and Facebook.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Econ 101

American TV helps a lot too.

[excession]

Re: Econ 101

Please help me understand how a blanket VAT on all goods, whether domestically produced or imported, is the same as a tariff imposed only on goods which are imported?

[herman]

Re: Econ 101

Exports are zero rated for VAT: 20% in and 0% out. That is in effect a 20% import duty (or a 20% export subsidy). Of course, EU and Canadian leaders pretend not to understand that.

[Andy 73]

Re: Econ 101

The point of being zero rated on export is to allow other countries to impose their own sales tax so everything essentially works out. This involves minimal cooperation and avoids trade wars and 'tit-for-tat' tariffs and arguments. Sales taxes are essentially a local means for a nation's government to raise income an moderate particular activities.

Trump's insane reasoning appears to be that every other country on the planet must move to accommodate American exceptionalism. Essentially he wants to dictate every nation's trade terms, and to do so exclusively to his benefit.

If he was serious about this, he'd insist that each state in America abandon its local sales tax and let the Federal Government exclusively decide these things. Obviously that's not happening because he is not a serious man.

[Big_Boomer]

Re: Econ 101

VAT & GST are SALES Taxes. You know, the one that in the USA you have to add to everything depending on which state you are in. The ONLY difference here is that it is charged at the same rate everywhere in the country (countries that are about the same size as a US State) and is included in the price you pay rather than you having to calculate it yourself. Items are Zero rated for export simply because it is assumed that Sales taxes get charged where they are sold to the end user.

As for your comment about "Liberals", can I remind you about Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, Francisco Franco, and Ferenc Szálasi, all of whom were Fascist Right-wing Leaders. Being an insane genocidal maniac isn't a left or right thing, they are all batshit mental and need putting out of our misery. Real "Liberals" believe in caring about/for others and helping people who cannot help themselves regardless of nationality, colour, creed, or religion. We have this thing called EMPATHY where you try to imagine how it would feel to be in their place, and how nice it would be if someone helped you, and how you could then go on to help others. Your lot only seem to be able to think with their wallets as GREED is your God! You are selfish and see everyone else as a drain or cost that you shouldn't have to pay for even when you have WAY more than you need. And no, I'm not a "gawd-damned Commie", nor even a supporter of Socialism, but your idea of greed politics nauseates me.

[Brave Coward]

Re: Econ 101

Well... may I humbly remind you that the very, truly liberal government of Great Britain was only too happy to let millions of Irish people starve during the Great Famine, on the grounds that it was too expensive to help them, and that the state should not take the place of the market?

So much for empathy, then...

[DancesWithPoultry]

Re: Econ 101

And events from the 19th Century are relevant how?

[Potemkine!]

Re: Econ 101

Oh, yes, John Russell, 1st Earl Russell (18 August 1792 – 28 May 1878), known as Lord John Russell was such a leftist. A true revolutionary. /s

[Jan 0]

Re: Econ 101

@Brave Coward: May I humbly remind the people of the USA that they're all genocidal maniacs, because the original settlers destroyed the majority of the indigenous people.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Econ 101

on the grounds that it was too expensive to help them, and that the state should not take the place of the market?

There was also complete ignorance of the fact that potatoes were the main part of the Irish diet, and that the people there simply didn't have the choice to eat bread instead, a "let them eat cake" situation. Stupidity & ignorance rather than malice, in the most part. Just like the orange felon's tarifs.

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: The Genocide imposed on the Irish wasn't an accident

This is untrue - The Genocide imposed on the Irish wasn't an accident, it was deliberate policy

But for every one ship sailing into Ireland with food, more were exporting grain-based alcohol, wool and flax, and other necessities such as wheat, oats, barley, butter, eggs, beef, and pork that could have helped feed the Irish people. The Irish themselves were accused of bringing the famine on themselves as they were viewed as a lazy, overpopulated race of people - never mind that they were not legally able to fish or hunt under British law. They starved in the midst of plenty because they were not allowed to provide for themselves and their families by any means other than agriculture.

The Famine, or An Górta Mór, the Great Hunger, took more than one million lives, between those that died of starvation and those that left Ireland for a better life in America or elsewhere in the world. Those who were left behind in Ireland experienced a desperation that led to a massive change in politics and nationalism - it was only a few years later, in 1858 that the Irish Republican Brotherhood was founded. The British government and the British and Irish Protestant landowners still required the Irish peasants and laborers to pay their rent for the land they could not work due to the blight and the hunger upon them. In a lush island surrounded by water teaming with fish and land that fattened pig and cattle alike, how could one failed crop cause a Famine? According to British law, Irish Catholics could not apply for fishing or hunting licenses. Their pigs and cattle were sent to England to feed the British and to export for trade, while the landlords kept the fine cuts for themselves. Ireland was part of the British Empire, the most powerful empire in the world at that time - yet the British government stood by and did nothing to help their subjects overcome this hardship. In our time, an enforced famine such as this would be labeled genocide yet in the 1800s it was merely an unfortunate tragedy. As defined in the United Nation's 1948 Genocide Convention and the 1987 Genocide Convention Implementation Act, the legal definition of genocide is any of the acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, including by killing its members; causing them serious bodily or mental harm; deliberately inflicting on a group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. The British policy of mass starvation inflicted on Ireland from 1845 to 1850 constituted "genocide" against the Irish People as legally defined by the United Nations. A quote by John Mitchell (who published The United Irishman) states that "The Almighty indeed sent the potato blight, but the English created the Famine.

https://irishhistorian.com/IrishHistoryLinks/History_Links/IrishFamineGenocide.html

This kicked of a long trend of Solidarity with Colonised peoples in Ireland

https://www.choctawnation.com/about/history/irish-connection/

[Androgynous Cupboard]

Re: The Genocide imposed on the Irish wasn't an accident

It was a genocide of opportunity rather than Nazi-style oven building, but you're not wrong. I can't find the exact quote, but I believe it was Charles Trevalyan who implied that it was gods punishment on them for being catholic. And for anyone that feels that even then genocide is a tad too strong, consider that an entire social class - those that informally let a plot of land on larger farms - was essentially wiped out.

That said, relavence to the topic at hand? None at all.

[Androgynous Cupboard]

Re: The Genocide imposed on the Irish wasn't an accident

Ah, found it - thank you Wikipedia. Trevalyan said the famine was "a direct stroke of an all-wise and all-merciful Providence". What a c*nt.

[Phil O'Sophical]

Re: The Genocide imposed on the Irish wasn't an accident

it was deliberate policy

That's a rather typical revisionist American attitide, and is nonsense.

According to British law, Irish Catholics could not apply for fishing or hunting licenses.

Untrue. No licenses were required to fish off the shore, and I don't think coarse fishing licenses for rivers even existed until the end of the 19th century. Few Irish fisherman had boats capable of catching enough to feed more than their immediate family. Some larger boats were pawned to get money to buy food, because fishing was an uncertain trade, especially in winter, and (until the famine) potatoes were more reliable. Fish had to be eaten when caught, so weren't a long-term solution. It was nothing to do with licences. Besides, the bulk of the Penal Laws which imposed restrictions on Catholics (all of them, English and Irish) were repealed some 20 years before the famine.

Their pigs and cattle were sent to England to feed the British and to export for trade, while the landlords kept the fine cuts for themselves

Most of the landlords were absentee landlords, who lived in England, so they couldn't have "kept the fine cuts". Their land was overseen by agents (Irish themselves), who were often brutal in dealing with the tenant farmers but didn't report true conditions back.

yet the British government stood by and did nothing to help their subjects overcome this hardship

As has been said, much of the government didn't even know it existed. Those that did, such as Peel, tried to help. Overall £8m (around £1bn in today's terms) was spent, but not very effectively. For example, American corn was imported and sent to Ireland, but Irish millstones were too soft to grind it properly so it wasn't much use, and the soup kitchens that were set up by both government and private sources didn't provide enough food, despite the fact that almost 200,000 tons of wheat were imported into Ireland (5x as much as was exported) in the worst year.

The British policy of mass starvation inflicted on Ireland from 1845 to 1850 constituted "genocide" against the Irish People

There was no such policy. It was a combination of ignorance and insufficient help at first.

I suggest you read some real Irish history books written by real Irish academics.

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: The Genocide imposed on the Irish wasn't an accident

Peddle your un-evidenced Genocide apologia elsewhere - There are the usual apologists for Empire and the ignorant on your side, and on the other, a preponderance of serious scholarship supporting the perfectly obvious conclusion that Starvation was used as colonial tool, in Ireland and elsewhere e.g. India, China and Palestine.

Irish Historian - like you need to be Irish to understand Irish History,

THE IRISH Famine was an act of British genocide, Tim Pat Coogan has argued.

In his new book, The Famine Plot: England’s Role in Ireland’s Greatest Tragedy, the historian offers a controversial perspective on one of the darkest chapters of Irish history.

In chapter three entitled ‘A Million Deaths of No Use’ he writes: “In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.”

The list of acts includes killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group and imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group.

Citing Article 2 of the United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, he comments: “The land of Ireland was dangerously overburdened by the weight of human stock.

https://www.irishpost.com/news/great-famine-british-genocide-16116

Academic papers

To date, historians have paid little attention to the objectives, both stated and implicit, of British Famine relief efforts. Much of the analysis contends that Famine relief was a compromise between the Whig Party’s adherence to laissez faire governance and Lord Russell’s basic human empathy. However, if British relief is viewed in the context of Britain’s concern with the “Irish Question,” it becomes clear that relief efforts were not designed to relieve Irish suffering as much as to permanently reform the Irish economy. As a result, Irish Famine mortality gradually became the avenue through which the British pursued and attained this objective. By 1849, the forcible displacement of poor Irish cottiers, under the guise of relief legislation, became the major channel through which the Irish economy was remade. Thus, the British Government deliberately facilitated Irish deaths during the Great Famine, and therefore committed genocide against the Irish people.

https://brill.com/display/book/9781904710820/BP000013.xml

Professor of International Law

Clearly, during the years 1845 to 1850, the British government pursued a policy of mass starvation in Ireland with intent to destroy in substantial part the national, ethnical, and racial group commonly known as the Irish People, as such. In addition, this British policy of mass starvation in Ireland clearly caused serious bodily and mental harm to members of the Irish People within the meaning of Genocide Convention Article II(b). Furthermore, this British policy of mass starvation in Ireland deliberately inflicted on the Irish People conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction in substantial part within the meaning of Article II(c) of the 1948 Genocide Convention. Therefore, during the years 1845 to 1850 the British government knowingly pursued a policy of mass starvation in Ireland that constituted acts of genocide against the Irish People within the meaning of Article II(b) and Article II(c) of the 1948 Genocide Convention.

https://www.historynewsnetwork.org/article/francis-a-boyle-the-irish-famine-was-genocide

[Roland6]

Re: Econ 101

A 19th century liberal party would probably embrace Liz Truss and Farage…

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Econ 101

You are possibly unaware that the 1840s were also an economically bad time for England leading to emigration and suicides. They were known as the Hungry Forties.

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: Econ 101

The Corn-Laws passed in 1815 - resulted in this - which is where the phrase the "Hungry Forties" originates from, it actually comes well after the forties from an-anti corn law reformer, and is the title of "Hungry forties - Life under the bread tax"

Again a deliberate action by the wealthy resulting in the immiseration of the poor, who they saw as Useless Eaters. - Can't have the poors eating cheap Corn when Good English Corn is waiting to make the lord of the manner a fat profit, look the Rats have barely touched it.

I think the Corn laws are very much what we are seeing with Russian Energy in Europe - with the same underlying motivation to shore up the profits of the wealthy at the expense of everybody else.

In many ways, I feel we live still in a feudal manner, but with more sophisticated set dressing.

In England, I know nobody who believes the government of the day is influenced by the desires and well-being of the public, nor do I know anybody who expresses the view that in this manner the government is somehow different from those preceding.

So people who don't care about us rule us, and don't care what we think - still got bloke with shiny hat, who got the job by being born to the right family.

[Mainframe Greybeard]

Re: Econ 101

> Real "Liberals" believe in caring about/for others and helping people who cannot help themselves regardless of nationality, colour, creed, or religion.

I thought that was Socialism, not Liberalism? But whichever, its certainly not Capitalism which seems to be the anathema of fair distribution of wealth.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Econ 101

"fair distribution of wealth"

Oddly in socialist, and especially communist, countries the 'fair' distribution of wealth seems to be amongst the elite and absolutely no-one else.

At least with capitalism you get to earn something and don't need to worry about the gulag.

[LogicGate]

Re: Econ 101

"Oddly in socialist, and especially communist, countries the 'fair' distribution of wealth seems to be amongst the elite and absolutely no-one else."

Let me introduce you to a Mr Elon Musk.. You may have heard of him before:

https://engaging-data.com/how-rich-is-elon-musk/

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Econ 101

As a matter of interest, how far do Tesla share have to fall so that he's no longer the richest man in the world. Or has he achieved that already.

[herman]

Re: Econ 101

My Tesla shares are still well above where I bought them. You can buy anything now. Buy in March - sell in September.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Econ 101

"As a matter of interest, how far do Tesla share have to fall so that he's no longer the richest man in the world."

It's more complex than a shares x price calculation. If the shares drop below a certain point, what Elon is using to secure loans will get called and he may be forced to surrender or sell shares to pay off or reduce the loans. It's only linear to a point and then his assets drop off a cliff.

I think it's already very questionable to call him the richest in the world without knowing what his liabilities are. King Charles is the titular head of a very large holding. A large amount of that are productive assets such as agriculture, business properties, etc. I expect he's not as leveraged as Elon.

[Big_Boomer]

Re: Econ 101

Spot on, and it is because they are neither Communist nor Socialist no matter what they claim. As for not having gulags in the USA, tell that to the 1.8 million people in prison (0.7% of US population). Oh wait, I can hear the excuse that they are criminals and yet we hear the EXACT same excuse from North Korea, Russia, China, etc.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Econ 101

Don't forget Gitmo. Yes, in the Land of the Free (tm), you can even offshore your political prisoners. It's the American Way.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Econ 101

And El Salvador. Gitmo on steroids. Just try not to be brown and have tattoos of your favourite soccer club and so might be mistaken for a "gang" member.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Econ 101

"Oddly in socialist, and especially communist, countries the 'fair' distribution of wealth seems to be amongst the elite and absolutely no-one else."

Mostly, they live up to their stated ideals as much as most any country with "Democratic" in it's name.

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: Econ 101

- wtf do you call GITMO

The US extensive network of Black Sites - Here - looks cosy https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/oct/09/cia-torture-black-site-enhanced-interrogation

[Joe W]

Re: Econ 101

[ ] you understand VAT

[x] you do not understand that. Like... at all.

VAT is the same concept as any sales tax levvied in the USA. It is on all products (no matter of the products' origin!) sold to the final customer in the country (example: if I was a contractor doing kitchen remodelling, when I buy tiles to do work on a customer's kitchen I do not pay the VAT, the cutomer pays the VAT to the state / country on the tiles, any markup I add, and my labour costs).

If Villeroy exports tiles to the US, state sales tax of course is added to the final price - if the state has sales tax, but that's a problem of that specific state.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Econ 101

"when I buy tiles to do work on a customer's kitchen I do not pay the VAT, the cutomer pays the VAT"

It's more complicated than that but as the simple notion of a sales tax not being the same as a tariff is probably too complicated for him.

[ChrisElvidge]

Re: Econ 101

It's the same the world over.

Business do not pay taxes, consumers do.

It's not the government's money, it's ours (consumers).

Perhaps we (rest of world) should put a tax on any profits going to US corporations - especially golf course owners.

[DoctorPaul]

Re: Econ 101

The big change between the old Purchase Tax and the Value Added Tax that replaced it (here in the UK) is that PT was only charged once, at the final point of sale, while VAT is charged at every step of the production process. So the quarry charges VAT when it sells the clay to the tilemakers, they charge it when they sell the tiles to the DIY store, which then charges VAT to the final customer. The thing is that every member of the chain except the final punter is also VAT registered and reclaim any VAT on their "inputs".

As a builder, I would expect you to be VAT registered to be able to claim back the tax you pay. Mind you, then you would be forced to charge VAT on the entire bill to your customers so it very much depends on who you're building for. It would price you out of the bottom end of the market for sure. In any case, surely you just quote a fixed price for the job rather than buy the tiles and sell them on to the customer as an invoice item?

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Econ 101

Like I said, it's convoluted but essentially a sales tax which is probably the best way to explain it to herman.

But to address your example, if you're an unregistered trader then either the customer buys the tiles and pays VAT or you buy them, and, if you're not going to lose money on the job, include the VAT inclusive amount in your bill. Either way the only thing that doesn't get subject to VAT is your contribution. Not being VAT registered means keeping your income below the compulsory registration limit - fine if it's a side hustle - or risking an unpleasant discussion with HMRC at some point, payment of VAT which you can't offset against input VAT at their estimation, not yours, and a fine.

[Anonymous Coward]

probably the best way to explain it to herman.

It'll be easier to teach quantum physics to a rock.

Remember Upton Sinclair's quote: ""It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it".

[Roland6]

Re: Econ 101

> risking an unpleasant discussion with HMRC at some point

If it’s some other tax, HMRC can be very flexible, with VAT, it’s full on teeth.

Reminds me, last quarters VAT return is now due…

[tiggity]

Re: Econ 101

It is full on teeth with VAT & less so with other tax issues.

Totally unrelated to it (mainly) being small low net worth companies. sole traders getting VAT wrong (or trying fraud) & the areas where they are flexible virtually always involves wealthy companies / individuals

[Joe W]

Re: Econ 101

Yeah... it's complicated, and you did a better job describing it than I - though in Germany as I understnad it since you will add value and the VAT the next one in the chain needs to pay is thus higher and you would get back the difference and thus the only one who actually pays the VAT is the final customer. This removes the overhead of claiming back the sales tax in each step... (but then I might be wrong).

Essentially: the final customer doesn't get the VAT back, in between it's a zero sum game.

Fixed price for contractors is not really that great, you need to show material and labour costs separately for tax purposes (of the customer).

[Jan 0]

Re: Econ 101

Locally produced goods are subjected to the same VAT rate as imports, so it's a level playing field.

[jockmcthingiemibobb]

Re: Econ 101

So you're advocating no VAT on imported goods. That would then create an imbalance for domesticaly produces foods and services that would still be subject to VAT. Or are you now advocating that the USA should dictate other countries tax regimes?

175 out of the 195 countries on the planet have VAT.

https://www.globalvatcompliance.com/globalvatnews/world-countries-vat-rates-2020/

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Econ 101

And, although the US isn't technically one of them, they have the same thing nearly everywhere in their sales tax. It's a local rather than a national tax and there are some implementation differences, but it serves the same purpose and is as irrelevant to discussions about tariffs. Oddly, the US sales tax is a frequent target of complaints from the unfamiliar because they think the differing local rates and the resultant separation of the tax from the stated price is a problem, and now we have the opposite side of the same coin, a US person who thinks VAT is remotely comparable to tariffs because they don't understand that sales tax could be national and flat.

[tiggity]

Re: Econ 101

Here are some UK tax experts who say you are wrong @herman

VAT

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Econ 101

USAians have trouble with the whole concept of sales taxes. Their system is utterly broken and bonkers and confusing. The idea that our prices already INCLUDE sales tax seems strange to them.

It is only recent that the US toyed with the idea that if you buy something from another state then you would have to pay sales tax.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Econ 101

I saw a Youtube video of some US tourists in the UK being flabbergasted that the price on the ticket was what they paid at the till. They'd heard of the 20% VAT and fully expected to have that added on at the till. They genuinely thought that UK prices were outrageous until that point and then realised it was actually cheaper than in the US, even with the 20% VAT. Then they discovered that, apart from in London, tipping and service charges in restaurants are relevantly rare and not mandated at 10-20% or whatever they were used to back home.

[Dinanziame]

Re: Econ 101

The effect is not the same — in each market, sales tax and VAT apply to all products sold in that market equally. People buying a cars in the EU need to pay VAT, whether the car was built in the EU or the US, and people buying cars in the US need to pay sales tax, wherever the car was built in the EU or the US. Import duties, on the other hand, only apply on cars built somewhere else.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Econ 101

People buying a cars in the EU need to pay VAT

Unless you're buying an EV in Norway...

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Econ 101

Ahem. Norway is not in the EU. It is in the wider European Economic Area though, along with Iceland and Lichtenstein.

[desht]

Re: Econ 101

Translation: "I'm too fucking thick to understand the differences between taxes and tariffs, but I won't let that stop me"

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Econ 101

"Import duties encourage local production."

Import duties may protect if it exists and if they don't affect their global supply chains.

VAT is complicated but essentially a sales tax independent of whether what's taxed is an import or locally produced. Doesn't the US also have sales taxes?

[MachDiamond]

Re: Econ 101

"Doesn't the US also have sales taxes?"

Yes, but not everywhere and not at the same rate. Los Angeles, the city/county that couldn't account for a whole bunch of homeless spending, voted for more taxes to help the homeless and the sales tax is over 11% in some places. Maybe now they can afford 2 or 3 accountants to keep the books (or a couple of sets of books).

[Benegesserict Cumbersomberbatch]

Re: Econ 101

Economics 101 starts with the division of labour. The output of an economic system is maximised when each participant in the system does those activities that maximise their own productivity, and trade for the things they need without distorting trade barriers. Like tariffs.

[Alistair]

Re: Econ 101

Your copy of economics 101 is about 95 years out of date.

You could do yourself *one* favour on the front of understanding how tariffs can affect production and economic process, Look up something called the Smoot-Hawley tarrif act, and how and when it was applied, and precisely what occurred over the ensuing 18 years. Makes for interesting reading. As a result perceptions of tariffs changed over the ensuing years.

[Adelio]

Re: Econ 101

VAT is not an import tax, it is a sales tax and applies to products irrespective of where they are produced. VAT varies based on the TYPE of product! Simples...

[Justthefacts]

Re: Econ 101

Import duties only encourage local production *under some very limited assumptions*. Mostly they *discourage local consumption*, substitution is the norm.

This should be obvious. Let’s say you like both oranges and kumquats. Oranges are grown locally, kumquats overseas. If you add tariffs, the price of kumquats will go up (local production must be more expensive, otherwise it would already be done locally). So you mostly stop eating kumquats, and only eat oranges.

Reality is more complex. In practice, tariffs have increased *because local politicians hated being dependent on imports*. A section of the population already “won’t eat that foreign muck”, and with the addition of tariffs it becomes a Big Patriotic Deal to not eat kumquats. It becomes clear that if you are seen eating a kumquat, you will lose your job. The tariffs become irrelevant, as nobody can eat them without getting the Orange Purity League on their tail.

But the net outcomes are: not many kumquats get eaten in the tariff country; people who prefer kumquats don’t get their favourite fruit; the exporter will drop their price by a small fraction of the tariff (10% of the 10%, maybe 1%) to stimulate global demand; any remaining secret-kumquat-eaters see a large price increase; the beneficiaries are kumquat-eaters in *third-party importer countries* who see their kumquat price go down by 1%

[herman]

Suez Canal

At the same time, the US is suppressing the Houthis in Yemen at tremendous cost. The trade value to Egypt and Europe (and China) of reopening the Suez canal is immense and the thanks the US is getting for doing that is pretty much zero.

[Adair]

Re: Suez Canal

The whining of the self-pitying and self-serving greed fuelled arrogant is something to behold.

The USA maybe a poverty stricken rat infested shithole, where even it's finest can barely scratch a living, but if that is true it's a situation entirely of their own making. Actions have consequences and selfish greed almost always ends up having harsh consequences, especially for the ones being trampled on.

Instead of looking for scapegoats over the horizon the good 'ol USA would do well to take a long look in the mirror and begin to sort itself out: morally, ethically, spiritually (all you so called 'Christians' - Christ knows exactly who you really are), and start to rebuild a society that actually upholds it's supposed ideals.

[m4r35n357]

Re: Suez Canal

Heh, recently I discovered (on this very forum) that "Jesus-Lover" is considered an insult in the USA ;)

[LogicGate]

Re: Suez Canal

"the thanks the US is getting for doing that is pretty much zero"

Ok, since you and your administration feel under-appreciated and this hurts your snow flake feelings, let me take one for the team and thank you.

Thank you USA for spending the last 80 years fucking up in the middle east so that you could fuel your economy on cheap oil (remember that bit that you continuously complain about the Germans doing), while leaving Europe to suffer from the resulting becklash of refugees and terrorism.l We truly appreciate your effort.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Suez Canal

Britian and France had a good hand in the middle east too. The US is a relative latecomer to that mess.

[Potemkine!]

Re: Suez Canal

For France, it would be rather about Near East, mostly about Syria and Lebanon because to the Sykes-Picot agreement, something that didn't last after WW2 thanks to the actions of the British to expel the French from there

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Suez Canal

Has the possibility that US enablement of what Israel is doing in Gaza is a large part of what is causing the Houthis to try and block traffic to the Suez canal?

I'm going to make the suggestion that the rest of the world start charging the US/Israel for the additional costs of insurance, damage to ships, fuel for the journey around Cape Horn if they don't want to risk a Suez canal route, etc, etc, etc......

[Joe W]

Re: Suez Canal

While I share the sentiment, Cape Horn is the wrong place - you mean the Cape of Good Hope ;) - unless you want to take the scenic route over the Pacific Ocean.

[Casca]

Re: Suez Canal

Its so nice with all that open ocean to look at. :D

[Potemkine!]

Re: Suez Canal

You think the Houthis are eliminated ? ROTFL. Saudis have tried by bombing them for years, killing women and children in the process, and they are still there. In fact, Houthis fight Sunnis for centuries and they are still there. Shias cannot be more happy to die if they think they defend their faith.

I guess you probably don't know that there are many warships there defending merchant ships against Houthis attacks other than the US Navy. For your information, look at Operation Aspides

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Suez Canal

Herman's view of history is probably WWI = 1917 - 1918, WWII = 1941 to 1945.

[Roland6]

Re: Suez Canal

Plus they weren't America's war but Europe's wars which America reluctantly had to get involved in to separate the squabbling children. (I'm sure in the MAGA mindset, it was the Europeans who caused Japan to bomb Pearl Harbour).

[Roland6]

Re: Suez Canal

>” the US is suppressing the Houthis in Yemen at tremendous cost.”

I note no one has produced any evidence of this “tremendous cost”.

I suspect it is like the US’s contribution to Ukraine; massively overshadowed (greater than x10) by the UKs contribution. If we take into consideration France’s and the other European contributions, the US’s contribution looks derisory.

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: Suez Canal

The US is carrying out a Genocide in Occupied Palestine using its local proxy US Backed Zionist State Terror group.

The brave heroic people of Yemen are attempting to prevent the livestreamed mass extermination of Palestinians, and you expect thanks rather than opprobrium, for responding to this act of heroism by murdering civilians. Truly something is wrong in your perception or your morality.

The U.S. is bombing Yemen because Yemen is acting, as required by international law, to stop the genocide and unlawful siege in Palestine.

This is not an editorial opinion. It is a statement of both law and fact.

Neither of these facts has been featured in the reporting or commentary of Western media corporations, let alone in the statements of perpetrator governments like the U.S.

https://mondoweiss.net/2025/04/yemen-is-acting-responsibly-to-stop-genocide-and-the-u-s-is-bombing-them-for-it/

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Suez Canal

I suppose this does line up with the political left's warped logic.

Vandalising someone's Tesla is an act of defiance against Musk, even though it has zero effect on him and only hurts the owner of the car.

Yemen's actions are not acting in support of Palestine. They are attacking shipping which has nothing to do with the Gaza issue and are instead attacking at random.

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: Suez Canal

US backed Zionist State Terror group Genocide in occupied Palestine is the reason expressed by the Yemen's government as their motivation for preventing shipments to reach Occupied Palestine via the Red Sea.

That also accords with their freedom of navigation for Ships which aren't violating that embargo.

That also accords with their lifting of the Naval Blockade during a period of the "Genocide Pause" where the intensity of the Genocide lowered, and resumption also tallied.

The facts are plain the richest country in the world is bombing the poorest country in the world to attempt to disrupt the solidarity offered to the Palestinians by Yemen.

https://www.declassifieduk.org/who-are-yemens-houthi-rebels-attacking-israeli-ships/

You at least retain enough shame to not put a handle to your comments.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Suez Canal

"At the same time, the US is suppressing the Houthis in Yemen at tremendous cost. The trade value to Egypt and Europe (and China) of reopening the Suez canal is immense and the thanks the US is getting for doing that is pretty much zero."

There are multiple nations co-operating in that endeavour, and all are there to protect their interests. None are doing it just for the good of others. The US is quite partial to some of that oil from the Middle East. The US may transport less through the currently open Suez canal, (they are not trying to re-open a closed canal as you imply!!) but what they do transport through it is high value and in demand.

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: Suez Canal

They are doing it to support the Genocide - if they wanted to stop the Genocide the blockade would stop. So it's doing it in furtherance of an International Terrorist group, which is not remotely in the interests of the countries participating due entirely to US Vassalage or the naked racism of their leader, both in the UK's case.

[tiggity]

Re: Suez Canal

The Houthis are the ones behaving in a moral manner though, trying to block trade to / from Israel (not anywhere else) given Israel is performing a genocide (& has been for a long time now) - unfortunately the US happily cheer on the genocide (presumably because most victims are Muslim (though Israel has still murdered plenty of Christians, destroyed churches))

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Suez Canal

"not anywhere else"

False. They are attacking shipping that has no connections with Israel. And this is not a blockade as they are nowhere near the territorial waters of Israel. It is simply Iran backed terrorism trying to start a hot war in the area.

The Galaxy Leader was on route from Turkey to India when it was hijacked in 2023.

The Rubymar was on route from the UAE to Bulgaria when it was sunk.

True Confidence was on route from China to Saudi Arabia and Jordan when it was attacked killing one crew member.

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: Suez Canal

The Naval blockade imposed on US backed Zionist State Terror group has led to the closure and bankruptcy of Occupied Palestine's Port of Umm al-Rashrāsh https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240716-israel-says-eilat-port-bankrupt-after-months-houthi-naval-blockade/

Yemen’s Houthi have mounted a selective counter-shipping campaign that has disrupted global trade between Asia and Europe, while demonstrating solidarity with the Palestinian cause, a major concern of the Global South. The shipping attacks have thus far caused little physical damage but have triggered major delays and expenses for firms based in countries friendly to Israel, as well as for responding U.S. and European navies. The Houthi practice of distinguishing targets by national origin, with efforts to leave unmolested carriers from “friendly” countries, serves as a form of economic sanction on affected destinations such as the European Union. As such, the anti-trade campaign adds a new level of sophistication to producer embargoes and so-called “tanker wars” of the past. Meant as a challenge to Israeli war tactics, the Houthi strategy has ended up demonstrating the power of a non-state actor to undermine global norms around freedom of navigation and the traditional oversight role of great powers.

https://www.bakerinstitute.org/research/houthi-red-sea-attacks-impose-economic-sanctions-israels-backers-0

The recent missile and drone strikes on Um al-Rashrash undermine not just Israel's security but its economic ambitions, including vital tourism traffic that contributes substantially to its revenue. Tel Aviv’s obscure stance on the "Yemeni front" may stem from a desire to avoid security and political embarrassment resulting from this distant support.

The immediate impact of the Yemeni attack on Israel's maritime trade is evident in the rapid rise in transportation costs. Israeli ships may need to avoid the Red Sea and Bab al-Mandab altogether, opting for longer routes around Africa or resorting to higher-cost air transport. The fees of insurance companies, especially for Israeli ships or those transporting goods intended for the occupation state, will likely continue to increase.

Israel’s imminent implosion

These economic challenges take on new dimensions, considering the Israeli Ministry of Finance's estimate that the cost of the war exceeds $270 million per day, with Israel expected to bear a significant portion, in addition to US taxpayers.

Pre-existing Israeli political and social unrest, coupled with a decline in foreign reserves, forced borrowing, and economic contraction, could substantially damage its economy. The World Bank's estimation that 34.6 percent of Israel's GDP depends on trade in goods is a case in point. Tens of billions of dollars in Israeli-Asian trade are also at risk due to the regional disruptions in the Red Sea.

All of this uncertainty adds to other concerns, such as a retreat of investors from risk, a sharp decline (by 70 percent) in the volume of invested capital since last October, and the mass “exodus” of settlers to their countries of origin.

https://thecradle.co/articles-id/14235

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Suez Canal

You can copypaste as much as you want, the fact is that they have attacked vessels that were not travelling to or from Israel

"The shipping attacks have thus far caused little physical damage"

At least one sunk ship and one dead civilian. The environmental impact of the shipping attacks is HUGE.

"serves as a form of economic sanction on affected destinations such as the European Union."

Ah, so it ISN'T a blockade of Israel, this is against the entire west. So yeah, they are going to get bombed.

"Israel's maritime trade"

No, they are attacking more than just those ships trading with Israel, it was admitted in your earlier block of copypasta.

It is safe to say that the Iran backed attacks on general shipping will not help the cause of the Houthi people.

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: Suez Canal

US backed Zionist State Terror group are perpetrating a Genocide, that Yemen are upholding international law in attempting to prevent. https://mondoweiss.net/2025/04/yemen-is-acting-responsibly-to-stop-genocide-and-the-u-s-is-bombing-them-for-it/ So what if the US vassals of the "Collective Direction" meekly acquiesces, you are a piss-ant spec of filth that trapped in place is causing an infection. The people of the world don't support murdering kids, and raping people in torture dungeons, or executing ambulance workers and burying the ambulance along with the body in a shallow grave, https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/graver-israels-atrocities-gaza-quieter-bbc-grows

You can't get past that, people can see what Zionism is, they can see Zionism requires Fascism as it's directly antithetical to democracy.

The greatest threat facing Israel is the democratic threat. There is no greater danger to the regime in Israel than its turning into a democracy. There is no society that opposes democracy like Israeli society. There are plenty of regimes opposed to democracy, but not a free society. In Israel the people, the sovereign, is opposed to democracy.

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-03-23/ty-article-opinion/.highlight/israelis-know-that-true-democracy-will-spell-the-end-of-zionism/00000187-0b26-d1cf-a7af-fffe6f6a0000

[1] The Houthi people makes no sense - it's like saying the Herzl people - the phrase would be either Houthi Family or Yemeni People or even the Ansar Allah Movement, as Herzl Family or Austrian People, or US Backed Zionist State Terror supporter.

[2] The blockade is indeed an economic one, slowly making the possibility of a first world life in the Zionist Entity slip further and further out of reach of the average member of the US backed Zionist State Terror group, resulting in the economic collapse, happily you have a Ukrainian finance minister with economic expertise exceeded only by his command of English.

"Smotrich rushed to remove all tariffs on imports from the US to Israel, and in response received 17 percent tariffs on imports of goods from Israel to the US. Genius," opposition lawmaker Vladimir Beliak posted on X.

https://english.almayadeen.net/news/Economy/tel-aviv-stocks-slide-as-trump-tariff-fears-rattle-investors

I'm sure his "Land Grandmizer" who "drawed" on MafKuva would be proud.

[herman]

So, the only countries who are morally allowed to protect their local industry against competition are Canada, Europe, China and India?

[sgp]

Can't you just condense all your measle brained ideas in one post?

[abend0c4]

I don't know if you're aware of this thing called the World Trade Organisation which has been working for years to remove trade barriers between countries and which is supposed to resolve disputes over trading practices. One Donald J. Trump, in his first term, blocked appointments to its Appellate Body leaving it unable to adjudicate. The reason he did that was the WTO sometimes ruled against the restrictive practices of the USA and the idea that America might be held to the same rules as the rest of the world is anathema to him. So he broke it for everyone.

Having hamstrung the one body that could have delivered freer trade, Trump is imposing what is effectively a federal sales tax on the USA, supposedly as a weapon against evil foreigners. The simplest explanation for this is that he has no interest in free trade, but he does have an interest in higher federal tax receipts. That's the opposite of his public assertions, but that would not be unprecedented. It seems very unlikely Trump's really that concerned about returning the USA to the era of The Pajama Game and I very much doubt that the new breed of American oligarch has that sort of investment in mind.

[herman]

First off, the WTO drive for free trade doesn’t work if countries simply rename import duties to something else. Secondly, the US prez does not have many trade tools at his direct command. Import duties is pretty much it. Here is a reasoned critique of the problem with the WTO and globalism: https://www.thesling.org/the-failed-assumptions-of-free-trade/

[Doctor Syntax]

I've got an idea. The US adopts VAT so that it would be, in your view, a level playing field and no need for tariffs. Wouldn't that be an equitable solution in your view?

[herman]

If the US implement VAT the way Europe did, then it would level the playing field, but the US prez cannot do that - congress would have to do it. The US prez is limited to imposing tariffs, so that is what he is doing.

[Doctor Syntax]

Admittedly you have a problem whereby the functions of head of government and head of state are mixed up and separated from the legislature. But if VAT was such a good idea for promoting industry why isn't it been recommended that the legislature do that instead?

The fact is that it wouldn't be discriminatory which is what POTUS wants to achieve. It's a sales tax. A convoluted sales tax to be sure, but a sales tax**. AIUI the US already has sales taxes. The fact that you think swapping one for the other would be equivalent to imposing tariffs it shows that you really do need to gen up on it.

* For some of us the only Prez was Lester Young.

** Like many business owners I had to play a part in the VAT chain so I have some experience of how it works.

[Roland6]

>"If the US implement VAT the way Europe did, then it would level the playing field, but the US prez cannot do that - congress would have to do it. "

So the prez can implement it the European way, it only needs the prez to put a bill before congress, just the Europeans did, except every individual country's government also had to ratify it.

>"The US prez is limited to imposing tariffs"

My heart bleeds, I think none of the European leaders can impose tariffs, they all have to get the approval of their elected governments (even if it is just a rubberstamp)...

[John Brown (no body)]

"If the US implement VAT the way Europe did, then it would level the playing field, but the US prez cannot do that - congress would have to do it. The US prez is limited to imposing tariffs, so that is what he is doing."

So, basically what you are saying is the President is bypassing Congress? A Congress his party has a majority in, in both houses? Why do you think he needs to rule by executive order when his elected party should be able enact the required laws? Do you think it's possible that he may not have the full and unequivocal support of his own party?

[herman]

Please explain

So, my learned down thumbed friends, how would you improve the US trade deficit and boost local production?

[Dan 55]

Re: Please explain

Get rid of the fucking idiot it has for a president?

[abend0c4]

Re: Please explain

The US runs a surplus of around $300bn on services, but a deficit of around $1000bn on goods. Exporting more services seems like a possibility, but people like their services to be predictable, so that might be difficult in the present environment.

Exporting more oil and gas also seems possible, if not environmentally desirable, particularly given that there are plenty of countries wanting to extricate themselves from dependency on Russia - but the alternative has to be better.

The US could export more food, if it was prepared to produce food the export market wanted rather than trying to force the rest of the world to take the commodity crap US farmers dump on the domestic market. It could export more cars if it produced small, fuel-efficient vehicles or affordable electric vehicles.

But the real problem is that there isn't the supply chain in the US any more to support rapid manufacturing growth. Xiaomi - a mobile phone company - was able to start building cars relatively quickly because it could simply go out and locally source most of what it needed. It would take decades to build that up in the US again.

There isn't a quick fix and the ongoing uncertainty is causing US companies to hold back on investments rather than bring them forward as they don't know what the economic situation will be tomorrow.

What does the US need to do? It needs to change its attitude. If they make stuff people want, they'll buy it but they can't force people to buy stuff that's basically domestic surplus. It needs to work with its neighbours because that's where the remnants of its supply chain are now located. It needs to crack down on the loopholes that basically mean corporations and wealthy individuals can avoid paying tax and use that revenue to start reducing its enormous and growing deficit. It needs to work internationally to get accounting rules changed. It needs to learn from Britain the perils of failing to acknowledge the end of empire. It needs to create a stable and investable economic climate. Unfortunately, it needed to start on this before 1975 when it last ran a trade surplus.

[jockmcthingiemibobb]

Re: Please explain

Fixed the USA's utterly broken infrastructure and public education system would be a good starting point. Paid parental leave and affordable childcare would also increase productivity massively.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Please explain

Paid parental leave and affordable childcare would also increase productivity massively.

If you can't afford children, don't have them. Don't except the rest of the taxpayers to pick up the bills for your choice.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Please explain

Parental leave should be part of the wage package and affordable services, like child care, come with properly balanced market prices (including the prices along the supply chain that the services require).

Assuming it all comes from the taxpayer shows the way that businesses are not paying their own way and are screwing everyone over.

[that one in the corner]

Re: Please explain

> Parental leave should be part of the wage package

Well, definitely the salary package - benefits help to the low waged is sensible.

[Roland6]

Re: Please explain

This is something people have obviously forgotten.

Back in the 1950s and 1960s, businesses paid wages that largely meant a household (ie. Family) only needed a single wage earner; today we are trending toward a house requiring greater than two wages and government handouts.

So I suggest business has done a good job of spreading a lie about the purpose of business and its role in society. Remember businesses begrudgingly pay the minimum wage, probably thinking the government should be paying its workers and not the business out of income…

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Please explain

Several things have happened in that time and it isn't simply that businesses have restricted wages. This is a gross simplification of a much larger problem.

The women's liberation movement served to dissuade women from being mothers. Women must enter the workforce to be 'equal'. As a result household incomes went up and spending power went up. This coincided with the end of the boomer phase of the US economy and the ending of the gold standard. The 1970s were not a good time and the combo of more money chasing not enough goods along with the US dollar becoming a FIAT currency saw HUGE inflation. Sustained double digit inflation well into the 80s.

The late 70s also saw the major decline of some major US industries. Car making (the malaise era), steel, Japan was on the up with electronics, it was far from the good times of the previous 2 decades.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Please explain

>The women's liberation movement served to dissuade women from being mothers.

WTF !!!

Suggest you do some reading around modern social history.

The problem wasn't women being "mothers" but that men regarded that ("being a mother") as the only job women were suitable and thus destined for...

Remember MAGA believe a woman's place is either being a dutiful Stepford Wife or a whore, fully controlled by men; just like the Taliban and other ultra-orthodox religions.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Please explain

"Suggest you do some reading around modern social history."

I would suggest that it is you who needs to do the reading. Firstly re-reading the original post, they reading some history. I fear that you are hammering at the keyboard while frothing at the mouth thinking 'I've got this MAGA now!'

"The women's liberation movement served to dissuade women from being mothers."

"but that men regarded that ("being a mother") as the only job women were suitable and thus destined for"

So, the women's lib movement showed women that they could do more than just raise children? Agreed?

And that by doing more than just raising kids it shows that they can be equal to men rather than subservient child bearers as you describe. Right?

In showing them that there is more than just staying at home and raising kids, they are dissuading them from being 'mothers'.

This is EXACTLY what actually happened. So wipe off your keyboard before it gets really gross.

[Adair]

Re: Please explain

=='In showing them that there is more than just staying at home and raising kids, they are dissuading them from being 'mothers'.'==

Women have always worked AND been mothers, unless their husbands were wealthy enough to keep them. And even being wealthy, plenty of women got there through their own hard work.

Our particular modern historical cultural blip of thinking women should generally just 'stay home and raise the kids' is exactly that, an historical cultural blip. Other societies/cultures have their equivalent blips, but in general women work and are mothers as well.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Please explain

"Back in the 1950s and 1960s, businesses paid wages that largely meant a household (ie. Family) only needed a single wage earner; today we are trending toward a house requiring greater than two wages and government handouts."

I was reading an article that was going on about that outrage. Costs have gone up so much that a couple might pay as much as $51,000/yr for child care.

Let the above sink in.

With both parents working, they are paying one of their salaries (post tax) to have somebody raise their children for them. On top of how much cable/sat TV costs now, two new cars every couple of years and the constant increases at the coffee take-way every morning. Never mind annual increases in their house rent. No wonder people can't afford to buy a home.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Please explain

And for those of us who choose not to have children, how do we get fair and equivalent compensation in our salary package?

[Androgynous Cupboard]

Re: Please explain

You get to spend all your money on holidays just for yourself, and when you get old enough to require care you get to be looked after by the now adult children that were selfllessly spawned and raised by others, rather than living in a "Children of Men" dystopia. You're welcome.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Please explain

Assuming the A/C you responded to was the one who raised that objection previously I think there's an argument for them not having children. Fitness of the species andall that.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Please explain

In the 1950s and 1960s you would have received the married mans wage. About the only difference, from what my father told me, was that the unmarried workers got first preference for holiday work ie. christmas cover at overtime rates, to allow the married workers to be with their families.

[ChrisC]

Re: Please explain

If you're happy for a nation to rely solely on its population being replenished either by the few who genuinely can afford to do so, or by being able to import younger citizens from the rest of the world, then fair enough. Some of us may however prefer nations to take a slightly more proactive role in encouraging a level of stability in their population makeup, so as to reduce the risk of low birth rates/lack of inward migration leading to very real problems in the years/decades to come.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Please explain

Herman asked what could be done to help the US economy. OP gave a useful answer. Ideallogically rejecting such is part of the problem.

As I biologist I have to point out that not having children would lead to the extinction of the human species. I leave it to you to work out whether that is a good thing.

You also need to realise, on a personal level, you will find that in your old age it's yours and other people's children whose direct services and contributions to the economy who will be supporting you. Unless you're planning not to grow old* it's to your advantage that people do continue to have children.

* Aas an oldie I can assure you it's better than the alternative which has befallen a number of former acquaintances.

[Excused Boots]

Re: Please explain

Alas, I can’t upvote this more than once.

[Adair]

Re: Please explain

Actually all that matters is that 'enough' women have children to ensure survival and other sensible needs are met; rather than allowing the notion that, for entirely subjective/ideological reasons, 'all' women should have children, and that therefore 'not having children' is deemed irrational/selfish/wicked. The advent of reliable contraception has rather disturbed the historic norms and assumptions.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Please explain

"As I biologist I have to point out that not having children would lead to the extinction of the human species."

If people planned to not have children and entirely stopped having sex too. In some parts of the world and in some cultures, a big family is expected and to be bragged about. IMOHO, many of those aren't the sort of people that should be overpopulating the planet. In some cases, children are the retirement plan so some will be around after high fatality rates to take care of the folks should they live beyond the ability to work 12/7/360.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Please explain

I realise it'll be hard for you to do this, but try anyway. What happens when fewer babies are born than the number of people who die in a country? And for bonus points, who'll be around to pay the taxes to fund care for the elderly? Don't expect taxpayers to pick up the bills for that choice too.

[Graham Cobb]

Re: Please explain

What happens when fewer babies are born than the number of people who die in a country?

The impact of the human beings from that country on the Earth is reduced. Seems like a good outcome to me, in moderation. So, governments can, and should, tweak that control knob in line with a careful analysis.

who'll be around to pay the taxes to fund care for the elderly?

As long as the previous item is done with care, analysis and forecasting - the declining population.

All perfectly manageable as long as there are grown-up politicians, being advised by experts doing research and analysis. Not one-line, quotable, slogans.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Please explain

"So, governments can, and should, tweak that control knob in line with a careful analysis."

The governments all seem to want to apply the "infinite-growth" model where they wind up with a greater than average amount of wealth.

Most of my investments are in companies that aren't growing. Instead, they are paying a nice dividend and investing in new technologies to stay relevant and produce products more efficiently. Similar strategies could be applied to populations. Maybe I've spent too much time reading Malthus and listening to lectures by Dr Al Bartlett. The topic has also been explored by writers such as Robert Heinlein, "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress". Even Dennis Taylor's "Outland" talks about how difficult it would be to recover from Yellowstone blowing it's top as mankind has been diligently extracting and using the easiest to access fossil fuels and mineral resources. I'm sure I could remember several more post-apocalyptic stories that are the more frightening due to being very plausible if I thought about it some more.

[Anonymous Coward]

how would you improve the US trade deficit and boost local production?

Electing competent, honest politicians who uphold the law instead of picking delusional, amoral and corrupt fuckwits would be a good place to start.

Get American industry to make stuff that people want to buy.

Invest in education and get an intelligent workforce instead of unthinking minimum wage droids.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Please explain

"how would you improve the US trade deficit and boost local production?"

I can only give you partial answers.

The first is that you have to understand that the US is not the only country in the world nor the only economy, that the world is a lot bigger and that if you want to fit into the global economy you are going to have to fit it rather than have it fit you.

Secondly, forget localising the sort of production that takes place in low labour cost economies. You can only do that by becoming a very low cost economy yourselves with low earning, low property prices* and all the rest of it. The best you can hope is end point of the situation that low cost manufacturing gets shifted from one country to another as the countries that were low cost get richer and are no longer low cost. Perhaps eventually there will be no more low cost countries and in that case the US can compete. This, BTW, is not a US problem. It's happened to the UK and other EU countries.

Thirdly you need to get a whole lot better at marketing, the right sort of marketing. Too many businesses think marketing is hard selling of whatever it is you want to make and put the effort into that. This works for Microsoft as they're exploiting an almost complete monopoly. The other is studying what people want to buy, designing the best product to fit that market, making it at the best quality and then putting the effort into selling it which is basically what Apple did. Interestingly manufacture for Microsoft is largely having H/W vendors load applications onto PCs which is outsourced to those vendors and Apple have outsourced manufacture to lower cost countries because its cheaper.

A couple of examples of this. European countries have imposed high standards for food products including beef and poultry. This is not protectionism. It's out of concern for consumers and public health. Everyone who sells in these markets meets those standards because they have to. Why does the US have a problem here? It doesn't produce to those standards. It wants the world to fit to it instead of fitting the world. Good marketing here would recognise the problem and adapt production to meet those standards. Why doesn't it do that? I said I can only give you partial answers. You tell me why it doesn't. All I can tell you is that it's not European protectionism that's excluding the US, it's US excluding itself for whatever reason. From this side of the pond it looks like stubbornness but I recognise that there may be a structural problem with US agriculture that only the US can solve.

Another example is the car market. The US claims that Europeans won't buy their cars. It's not that you don't have a manufacturing industry, because you do. But a little market research would show that the traditional big US car would be unwieldy outside the main roads and some of the bigger city streets. They would be a pain to drive in smaller urban side streets or in the sort of narrow lanes where I live. So why don't the US manufacturers design and produce suitable vehicles for export to these markets? You tell me. Is it conservatism of the industry? Management? Unions? Is it simply that the manufacturers see their own market as big enough? Possibly because Ford, GM and Chrysler all set up or bought operations in the UK and continental Europe to design and build vehicles here. But then they seem to have problems with competition from imports. Why does their marketing not work out what the market wants that the imports are supplying, design and build it? I don't know but maybe you do. But what seems clear is that the only solution for the US manufacturers is a degree of introspection to answer that question and then apply the answers. Another partial answer.

Thirdly, getting back to fitting in with the rest of the world, you need to consider supply chains in a globalised world. Partly it's a need to accept what I said earlier about low-cost manufacturing. You need to accept that if a component can be manufactured and shipped more cheaply to go into a US-built product then it's just an arbitrarily raised cost to put a tariff against it**. Likewise of the car manufacturing industry has to import steel from Canada then tariffs on that steel become another cost which affects its competitiveness and will make it even more difficult to export.

TL:DR The world does not owe US producers a living. They have to work out for themselves what their customers will buy and then make it. Having their govt shooting them in the foot won't help.

* Who's going to want to see most of the value of their property written off to get there?

** Note that if a component has a 25% tariff and the overall product is sold with a 20% sales tax then that component's contribution to the value on which the sales tax is levied will include that tariff so that comes to an additional 5% of the import value. One of the things about VAT is that although VAT is levied at different points in the chain the way input VAT is st against output VAT the amount levied at the end of the chain is simply that due from the total costs of materials, overheads, labour costs and mark-ups of all the businesses involved in making the product.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Please explain

I can only answer some questions, I can't solve all the problems. An excellent write-up, and you've got my up-vote.

> The US claims that Europeans won't buy their cars. It's not that you don't have a manufacturing industry, because you do. But a little market research would show that the traditional big US car would be unwieldy outside the main roads and some of the bigger city streets. They would be a pain to drive in smaller urban side streets or in the sort of narrow lanes where I live. So why don't the US manufacturers design and produce suitable vehicles for export to these markets?

In the US it would be illegal to sell these cars. The crash-test rating isn't high enough. Cars in the US became what they did because of Fear and wrecks, and Anything Less Is Not Enough. So they can't sell such cars locally. As to why they can't make such a car locally and sell it abroad, they might be able to -- but corporate risk-aversity, penny-pinching, and demand that, as you say, everyone fit them - they simple won't do something "twice". No _different_ cars because some people don't want the one offered to them. This is a problem as much in the US (products from the same company competing with each other!) as it is in this case of selling something different abroad. Everyone loses.

For another company to start up from scratch to avoid this, and design and manufacture cars to be sold abroad - why? Why not start the company in China, with cheaper labor, cheaper design services, cheaper cheaper cheaper - and bypass the US entirely? This seems to be what's happening.

It all wraps back around to: short-term profit-seeking by MBA-type "business leaders" has destroyed the United States. Well, they got their short-term profits. Now what?

[ChrisC]

Re: Please explain

"In the US it would be illegal to sell these cars. The crash-test rating isn't high enough."

You don't need something the size of a small moon on wheels to pass crash test requirements - the fact that so many foreign manufacturers are able to either import or locally produce vehicles that absolutely would not look out of place on European roads (because other than the obvious changes - e.g. colour of certain external lights - they ARE essentially the same vehicles you see over here) is proof of that.

[David Hicklin]

Re: Please explain

> In the US it would be illegal to sell these cars. The crash-test rating isn't high enough

I thought it was the other way around and the EU/UK standards are higher...we already know that the cybertruck is illegal on UK roads as a rather crude example.

[that one in the corner]

Re: Please explain

>> In the US it would be illegal to sell these cars. The crash-test rating isn't high enough

> I thought it was the other way around and the EU/UK standards are higher...we already know that the cybertruck is illegal on UK roads as a rather crude example.

The US crash test rating is all about protecting the car's occupants, as is the toughened[1] windscreen & windows, the supposed bulletproof construction etc.

The UK and EU regs Cybertruck falls foul of are aimed at protecting pedestrians and other road users - e.g. the too-sharp edges. Plus issues with the steer by wire, which isn't inherently self-centring, some other bits about difficulty of getting it certified.

These are two distinctly different attitudes and the clash can cause difficulties in both directions.

I haven't found (yet) anything definitive with regards to the crash testing[2], except for responses saying things like "US cars are getting heavier to survive the cras tests" which seems to indicate similar differences in attitude: the US wants to drive their car away after a crash, the EU/UK wants as many people involved in the crash, inside and out, to survive. One set of cars gets rigid & heavy, the other lighter and deliberately crumpleable.

[1] albeit not as tough as boasted

[2] as always, solid citations for or against this current understanding are welcomed

[Dave@Home]

Re: Please explain

"US cars are getting heavier to survive the crash tests"

I understood that the prevalence of the larger pickups etc, was that by being heavier, they were classified in a different bracket for emissions

[Casca]

Re: Please explain

Wow, so much wrong that its not even funny. "Crash-test rating isn't high enough" LMAO

[tiggity]

Re: Please explain

It is not just the roads that are often small in the UK, many areas have limited on street parking so a huge car is awkward there, and shop car park parking spaces which seemingly are nearly all based on 1970s car size: I am only aware of one shop near me with large parking spaces, that is Costco (a US company also operating in the UK).

I drive a small (just under) 1 litre car which is fine for UK roads, especially rural ones.

Ironically Ford (US car co big in the UK) used to target this market with small cars such as the Fiesta, but they have now replaced it with the far chunkier (albeit on same chassis) Puma (a small SUV, nothing like the old Puma which was a light & tiny car with a 1.7 l engine with great acceleration that my partner loved to drive!)

So it seems a conscious decision by biggest US car company in the UK to give up on this tiny car market segment (plenty of alternatives from Fiat, Peugeot etc.) - if you think there are some tiny roads in the UK, try Italy! - a reason Fiat are the champions of the tiny car.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Please explain

"You can only do that by becoming a very low cost economy yourselves with low earning, low property prices* and all the rest of it. "

Labor costs are becoming less and less of an issue as automation becomes increasingly capable. I think is was "How it's Made" where I watched an episode showing a fluorescent lamp factory (Sylvania or Phillips) that was nearly all automated. People were there to oil the machines and to make sure the sand was flowing properly into the glass machine.

Complete local supply chains become more important than labor cost and government meddling being kept to a very low minimum. One reason for broken supply chains is some material or process has become banned or so highly regulated that the cost is prohibitive. Those parts get off-shored somewhere where there isn't a premium and at some point, more production on either side get relocated until entire industries have pulled up stakes and moved. Cost of shipping has dropped so much that it might not make any sense to build something in more than 1 or 2 places and just export to everywhere else. As global trade has moved in those directions, smashing the whole thing in one quarter to fit the ideology of 1-1/2 people is leading to chaos.

I'm glad I'm not of "military age" anymore.

[GNU SedGawk]

Re: Please explain

If you want to make life better for business, you have to make life better for customers and workers.

So paying people well and treating them well, allows them money and time to consume your goods and services.

Keeping things nice involves recycling some of that money into FREE education, healthcare, transport, social care, energy.

This means you are invested in things working locally and can focus on improving things rather than responding to emergencies.

You want to make things locally, start there.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Please explain

But since McKinsey's got involved business is only there to create shareholder value and nothing else.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Please explain

It seems to be a matter of creating shareholder value over the current quarter with no long term thinking. This is the hole into which businesses have dug themselves.

[ecofeco]

Re: Please explain

It isn't called vulture capitalism for nothing.

[ecofeco]

Re: Please explain

Crazy commie talk! Every fool knows continual beatings always improve moral and efficiency!

[David Hicklin]

Re: Please explain

Corporate strategy and the stock markets also need to look at each other very closely here, the race to the bottom of cost whilst maximising profits to appease the stock market Gods who deman ever higher sales and profits is what caused all the local production to leave the USA.

Even if it brought back it will take > 4 years to do this as you also have the supply chains which are also overseas (and hence probably subject to tariffs themselves) to rebuild as they have also gone, so most companies will probably just pass on the cost to the American consumer and see what happens on 4 (or less ) years time.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Please explain

Why would that supply chain set up shop in the US? They could stay where they are and continue to have mostly tariff-free export to the rest of the world.

[Jonathon Green]

Re: Please explain

Have you tried making things people want to buy at a price they’re willing to pay?

That may sound trite and obvious, but, taking the specific case of automobiles, when Ford started offering the Gen 5 (2005) and later Mustang through regular dealerships, with proper factory warranties (and in the case of the UK from 2015 on with the steering wheel in the right place) it actually did rather well…

[Jonathon Green]

Re: Please explain

…and to take a further example I own four USA built guitars and a USA built amplifier.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Please explain

"That may sound trite and obvious, but, taking the specific case of automobiles, when Ford started offering the Gen 5 (2005) and later Mustang through regular dealerships, with proper factory warranties (and in the case of the UK from 2015 on with the steering wheel in the right place) it actually did rather well…"

Yes, but the marketing department didn't have anything to put in all caps with loads of exclamation points, so they needed to add in a bunch of useless "features" which added cost.

How many people buying a pickup truck for work need a hand selected leather interior accented with polished tropical wood? One of the reasons I wanted a Honda Element some time ago is that I could park it on an incline, open all of the doors and give it a good cleaning up with a hose. Leather wouldn't work well with that.

[Jimmy2Cows]

Re: Please explain

Maybe if US companies hadn't greedily offshored all their production capabilities in pursuit of ever-increasing profit and meeting arbitrary Wall Street expectations on continuous growth, the US wouldn't be facing a trade deficit in the first place.

Capitalist values are an underlying cause i.e. they did it to themselves, and now Trump is bitching about it like it's everyone else's fault. The cows are coming home to roost, and all the dominoes are falling like a house of cards.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Please explain

No, this is greed and cronyism. Once people discovered they could make money by doing nothing or from actively killing companies all bets were off. Millisecond trading, activist investors, crypto and stonks have been added to the existing toolbox of shorting and forex.

Once upon a time buying stocks was a proper long term investment. Since the abandonment of the gold standard, the concept of 24hr global trading and the computerised ease of trading it has turned the trading itself into a vast source of money rather than the absolute value of the traded item.

Companies are no-longer beholden to the customer. The shareholders and traders are their masters.

"cows are coming home to roost"

I wondered why there was a cow pat on the roof of my car!

[Justthefacts]

Re: Please explain

Honestly? I really wouldn’t “improve” that. A trade deficit is desirable for the USA. Importing stuff, means that the USA gets given goods from other countries, in return for US dollars *which the USA can print at its own discretion*. It’s free money. Tribute from the rest of the world, if you will, for privilege of dominating the world militarily and economically. A trade deficit means a strong dollar, which means you buy stuff from the rest of the world at prices in your own currency *far below* what they cost elsewhere. Equivalently, it means that your salaries are *twice* what they otherwise would be.

Your trade deficit is the main driver behind the dollar being a global reserve currency: you are printing USD (which costs your citizens nothing), and exporting the dollar bills. Those dollar bills are what the rest of the world uses as its transaction currency. No exported dollar bills = no reserve currency. Every year, you print $3trillion. What do you think your inflation would be, if that all that newly printed paper stayed inside US borders?

This is a problem you want to solve?

Congratulations, China is about to solve your “problem” for you. You will lose global influence and dominance, almost overnight. The dollar will crash to half its current level, if that. Your input prices will double.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Please explain

The odd thing is that prior to being able to print dollars at will and prior to their being a negative trade deficit the US people were doing well.

Now that they can print dollars and export jobs and import cheap goods the elite are doing VERY well and the average people are not.

[Roland6]

The US market has always been protectionist, even more so than continental Europe. History is littered with the bodies from the attempts of non-US companies trying to sell to Americans. The Japanese car industry is perhaps one of the exceptions, but they did it by producing a superior product and at a significantly lower cost that US citizens actually wanted.

Mind you the Japanese did the same to the UK motorbike industry…

[Doctor Syntax]

... and car industry.

[Roland6]

>... and car industry.

That was probably a blessing, given the quality of BL's output.

Although it did take a little longer, for Ford et al to realise if they wanted to remain in the European motor industry they too needed to invest big in manufacturing quality ie. all the stuff American business writers had been writing about decades previously, but largely ignored by US business, but not the ~Germans and the Japanese ...

[MachDiamond]

"The Japanese car industry is perhaps one of the exceptions, but they did it by producing a superior product and at a significantly lower cost that US citizens actually wanted."

When petrol prices shot through the cloud layer, Japan already knew how to make smaller, more efficient cars. Something US manufacturers have never sorted out so tried "mid-sized" cars out on a public that wanted nothing to do with them. When it turned out they were extremely good value for money, that's was that.

[Fred Dibnah]

Cory Doctorow

His latest essay on this topic is well worth a few minutes of your time.

https://pluralistic.net/2025/04/02/me-or-your-lying-eyes/#spherical-cows-on-frictionless-surfaces

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Cory Doctorow

"But Trump couldn't have pulled this trick off without the Dem establishment's total unwillingness to confront the hollowness of their economic policies."

VERY true.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Cory Doctorow

"https://pluralistic.net/2025/04/02/me-or-your-lying-eyes/#spherical-cows-on-frictionless-surfaces"

Yeah, I'm not going to agree with Cory about raising the minimum wage as benefiting the poorest, least educated people. If I have to pay more in wages, I want more back for that higher pay and I'll be taking fewer chances on new workers with little to no experience.

I like a lot of Cory's thinking, but some of it I don't see working. Smart and educated people that come from solid upbringing will do better than those from broken homes and communities where education and abiding by laws isn't given any priority. Anybody that wants special dispensation for being part of a protected class gets my scorn. Discrimination is wrong, but special privileges aren't any better. I got into and graduated college by doing the work. I didn't get a pass for being of European decent. My chemistry lab partner didn't get a pass for being a pretty female. I doubt the professor of my Political Science class could put a name to a face (giant lecture hall). You did the the work and passed exams and got the grade those indicated.

I did work with a guy that went to culinary school by changing his surname and applying for a scholarship.

[Potemkine!]

Rich people don't care

They don't allocate a huge share of their resources to buy material things. The poorer ones on the contrary will feel the heat.

But what else should be expected from a plutocracy ?

[ecofeco]

Re: Rich people don't care

Pluto-oli-kakistocracy.

America is getting 3 for the price of 1! What a deal!! For a mere trillion dollars or so, it's quite the bargain!

[Anonymous Coward]

Herman ze shill

Which one of the resident magatards got a new sock for Christmas?

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Herman ze shill

He's been here a long time. Not learned much, though.

[NerryTutkins]

childish analysis

Many of the countries targetted have made clear they have no idea where the US got the reciprocal percentages from. It turns out, they basically made them up. What they appear to have done is taken the trade deficit with a country as a percentage of imports from that country, then divided in two. So it isn't really about tariffs, it is about offsetting trade deficits. Even countries with zero tariffs on US goods get hit if they happen to run a trade surplus with the US because they provide better value, quality, etc.

The question is whether the US economy is large enough to be able to have a trade war with the rest of the world at once. 60 years ago, it probably was. Now, almost certainly not. Rather than move production to the US, in many cases countries will simply move around the US. So EU buys things from Canada it used to get from the US, or from Brazil, etc. And those countries buy stuff from Europe they used to get from the US. It will still cause damage outside of the US, and to some countries more than others. But it mitigates the damage, while the US faces the full cost.

In terms of moving production to the US, would anyone want to commit billions to do so when the regime there seems so unpredictable, especially when the country is likely to be lurched into a recession or even a depression? Imagine committing billions to the US and then finding either that the Trump regime is ejected in 4 years time (assuming they have not stitched up the political inconvenience of elections by then) or that Trump simply flip flops as he has multiple times already and cancelled or delayed tariffs indefinitely. As a company, you'd need to be absolutely certain that the US will maintain these tariffs for the long term (beyond next election), that the US economy will survive well enough that there is still a market there worth serving. Very big iffs.

[Androgynous Cupboard]

Re: childish analysis

I’m particularly fond of the Guardian article this morning noting a tariff on the uninhabited Heard and Macdonald islands, who somehow still managed to export $1.4M of machinery to the US last year. Suck on that penguins!

[ChrisC]

Re: childish analysis

As the rather insightful "Madagascar" series of documentaries showed, penguins can exhibit *remarkable* levels of ingenuity and engineering prowess - no wonder the US are so keen to buy their wares!

[MachDiamond]

Re: childish analysis

"I’m particularly fond of the Guardian article this morning noting a tariff on the uninhabited Heard and Macdonald islands, who somehow still managed to export $1.4M of machinery to the US last year. "

Uninhabited, but unowned?

I know there are some islands that are privately owned and get used for loopholes since a business owner could list the island as the legal address of the business. If the post office won't deliver to the post box they put up, it's purely for convenience that they've paid for a box someplace where they can get their post.

[John Riddoch]

Re: childish analysis

Less about what they "appear to have done" and more "what they've told us they've done" - see https://ustr.gov/issue-areas/reciprocal-tariff-calculations for their actual calculations based almost wholly on the trade deficit to that country; the tariffs charged by those countries isn't part of that equation. The assumption is that the other country must have cheated to be able to get a trade surplus with the US and they must be punished for it, as opposed to them being better/more efficient/smarter at it.

Partly, this seems to be part of a negotiating tactic of Trump to try and get what he wants in concessions from other countries; the promises by Mexico and Canada delayed their tariffs for a month, he's probably hoping other countries will be rushing to his door to make promises and concessions for a better deal, but in reality, there's not much wiggle room in many negotiations. The average tariff rate the EU levied against US imports was 1% (https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/qanda_25_541) and for all Trump's bluster about car trade, the fact is that most countries don't want US style cars. Petrol is cheap in the US, so they typically make huge gas guzzlers which aren't viable in countries with expensive fuel.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: childish analysis

"The assumption is that the other country must have cheated to be able to get a trade surplus with the US and they must be punished for it, as opposed to them being better/more efficient/smarter at it."

The entire project seems to be an attempt to subsidise dumbness.

[CowHorseFrog]

Re: childish analysis

Trump just killed the USD as the world currency.

Americas greatest advantage since WW2 was this, they could print money and they did and it doesnt cost them anything, something other countries could not do.

Sometimes you win and sometime syou lose, Trump got so greedy he wanted every advantage and never comprehended that others would dislike that.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: childish analysis

What trump and the idiots around him don't seem to have realised is that tariffs go both ways, if you stiff a country with tariffs they reciprocate but also mitigate, so the manufacturing moves to wherever it makes most profit.

If that happens to be in the countries you've imposed swingeing tariffs on then you've lost a huge chunk of your export market.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: childish analysis

Are you sure "analysis" is the correct description?

[Anonymous Coward]

If he really wanted local factories to produce stuff, he'd announce these tariffs well in advance. Something like "these tariffs will come into effect 1 year from now. Get building those factories now so you can have local production when they come into effect"

By introducing them on such short notice he's basically stiffing Americans and clearly just intent on raising tax dollars (and no doubt claiming that this money is coming from other countries as he did with the Mexico wall)

[Anonymous Coward]

he's basically stiffing Americans

He's not just stiffing Americans. This is f***ing up stock markets around the globe. I'm a Brit and I'm very much stiffed at the minute....I'm literally weeks away from retirement and I'm watching potential years of income just vanish from my pension fund. Thanks Donny, you dayglo psychopath...I guess I just have to hope I die a bit sooner, before the money runs out.

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately what we are seeing is a realignment of a hugely overheated stock market. Every US administration does their level best to ensure stock market growth at all costs and that is not sustainable.

Similar with the value of the dollar. The market reaction so far this morning is that both GBP and EUR are up against the USD.

[BartyFartsLast]

Or you could hope he dies to be replaced by someone less moronic.

[Anonymous Coward]

At what point can a sensible adult step in, question his soundness of mind and have him removed from office?

[CowHorseFrog]

WHere are all the american freedom loving heroes ?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the problem with America these days. You can never find a nutjob with an assault rifle and a grievance whenever you need one.

[CowHorseFrog]

Americans are cowards, very good at acting in Hollywood but when it really counts and real bullets fly they are cowards.

Late cowards in WW1 and WW2, even today they dont have the balls to even bomb Iran.

The only people America can ever invade are pathetic enemies like the Somalis, Houthis, and Afghans. If you have a single plane they are scared shitless.

Just ask the Ukrainians.

[DancesWithPoultry]

They need to get a move on.

It only took us 49 days to get rid of the lettuce.

[R Soul]

And. That. Is. A. Disgrace.

[CrazyOldCatMan]

At what point can a sensible adult step in, question his soundness of mind and have him removed from office?

It's a bit of a stretch to find one of those in the current US administration - Trump made sure of that when he made sure that everyone was a sycophant or toady with zero ability of independent thought.

[MachDiamond]

"Trump made sure of that when he made sure that everyone was a sycophant or toady with zero ability of independent thought.

I wonder if he learned that from Elon and the setup Mr Musk has with the Tesla BoD.

[CowHorseFrog]

How or why does half of America vote for a guy who says hes an greedy areshole and only wants to help himself and his actively wants sto say fuck everyone else...?

THis happens because the America media, hollywood, music, commericals, all taht propaganda has been brainwashing the audience to make heroes and gods out of the worse people in society.

Musk and Trump are two prime examples of why the media has a large responsibility for enabling, praising and brainwashing american society, and yet nobody says this.

[ChrisElvidge]

Replacement president

But if he dies in office, he's replaced by an even greater fuckwit - J.D. Vance.

[Casca]

Re: Replacement president

Sadly you are correct

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Replacement president

AKA the Spiro Agnew problem.

[R Soul]

But the next in line is JD Vance. Who is even more moronic than Trump.

[I am the liquor]

My worry is that he turns out to be smarter than Trump, or at least more diligent. Imagine how much more damage Trump could be doing if he were intelligent, as well as evil. My god, imagine if he were intelligent, evil, and not constantly distracted by golf.

[LogicGate]

And Porn-Stars

[Jonathon Green]

Vance is indeed both smarter and crazier.

A more constructive and realistic hope would be for mid term elections to deliver a Congress (both houses) able and willing to haul on the constitutional choke chains…

[CowHorseFrog]

He cant be that smart if he believes the same and "lost" the leadership battle with Trump.

[CowHorseFrog]

Look at todays world, all this promise from everyone about how the economy needs to keep growing.. and yet is anybody actually living better than they did 10 or 20 years ago ?

We all need to slow down because all this bullshit about more economy doesnt actually help the average person.

The more you work and earn the more you outnumbered by the arseholes of this world who are trying to grab more from you. Look at housing prices etc.

[mark l 2]

Unfortunately the MAGA loons will believe that the billions extra raised in tariffs have been paid by other countries if Trump tells them it has, although im not convinced Trump really knows how tariffs work and probably believe that other countries are actually paying them.

As a business you would be crazy to rush into spending millions on moving your factory from overseas into the US right now, as Trump changes his mind so often that by the time you have your factory built he could have completely removed any tariffs or imposed another crazy rule as a 'national emergency' forcing foreign own companies to have to have a 50% US partner or some other hair brained scheme.

Thats assuming that there wouldn't be a recession by the time your factory is up and running and no one in the US can afford to buy your goods anymore.

[CowHorseFrog]

Its amazing how half of America, think voting for a guy who wants to screw everything and grab money only for himself will actually care or give them anything.

I dont understand how anyone coul dhave possibly thought that Trump would give them when he has said many times how he wants to close anything that helps anyone because its a waste of money.

[Excused Boots]

"(and no doubt claiming that this money is coming from other countries as he did with the Mexico wall)”

What, surely you aren’t claiming that Mexico didn’t pay for the wall (well the bit that actually got built) after all? But, but, but, he promised!

[Anonymous Coward]

isolate them

At this moment, is it worth even considering the US as a trading partner?

Do we need anything they manufacture and can we wean ourselves off exporting to them?

[Roland6]

Re: isolate them

Depends on what we export.

Take cars, the major exports here are Rolls Royces and Mini’s. If you are in the market for a Rolls then you are only buying it for the image thus tariffs are irrelevant. BMW kept Mini production in the Uk because the largest market for this car was the UK. Not sure what the status of the Mini is in the US, but I suspect if you are buying a Mini, you already decided to pay a premium.

Whiskey, well as Canada is no longer buying US product, there is a new market if US consumers no longer feel able to afford the wee dram.

[CrazyOldCatMan]

Re: isolate them

Whiskey, well as Canada is no longer buying US product, there is a new market if US consumers no longer feel able to afford the wee dram

Plus, Canada has a lot of ex-Scots (especially in the east) who would welcome the taste of home-country whisky (note the spelling. Whiskey is the awful US stuff and the nice Irish stuff)

[Mike VandeVelde]

Excuse me sir

What exactly are you trying to say about Canadian Whisky. We will be just fine thank you.

[CowHorseFrog]

Trump is on a winner here... the only problem is he is missing the biggest opportunity with his tariffs, to MAGA.

Add tariffs at all state borders, that would rake in trillions. State trade is far greater than International trade.

[m4r35n357]

Oh god yes!

[Anonymous Coward]

US produce?

Cars? Nope, too shitty.

Food? Nope, too salty/sweet

Wine? Nope, nothing special

Software? Nope, there are alternatives

Media? Nope, there are much better options

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: US produce?

Media? Nope, there are much better options

Yes, the Beano comes to mind. More highbrow, anyway.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: US produce?

The Beano has always been good on Domestic interests, but don't you feel that comment on international trade has gone down hill ever since Whizzer And Chips folded?

[that one in the corner]

Re: US produce?

I always favoured the broadsheet reporting: The Eagle was most reliable on the issues concerning relations with the Treen, which I feel have a lot to inform us with respect to today's situation.

Ok, so The Mekon is green[1], whilst The Donald is orange, but once you look past the Chromatic Question...

[1] and we all know that it isn't easy being green, so we should cut The Mekon some slack on that account

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: US produce?

I've alsways thought from your posts that you were a gentleman of good taste. This confirms it.

[that one in the corner]

Re: US produce?

Thank, kind sir.

[that one in the corner]

Re: US produce?

> Thank, kind sir.

Proofreado! I'll swear that the "you" was there last time I looked. Maybe if I shake this tablet *really* hard it'll drop out onto the duvet....

Nope. But apparently I have just finished level four of something called "Flappy Birds"?

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: US produce?

"ever since Whizzer And Chips folded?"

The writing was on the wall when Whizzer and Chips merged into one publication!! The playground rivalries almost started WWIII!!!!. For those too young to remember, image if Commodore and Sinclair had merged to create One Computer To Rule Them All, the Commodore Spectrum, or the Sinclair 64!. The carnage is too unimaginable to contemplate.

[that one in the corner]

Re: US produce?

Crikey!

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: US produce?

"Software? Nope, there are alternatives"

Many governments around the world run on MS Windows. And at the speed most government IT projects run at, transitioning to "something else" will take a minimum of a decade. If Trump really decides he doesn't like a county and decides they are an "enemy state" and forbids all US trade with said country, it might be a bit of a problem. And probably make the lie visible about MS Azure data centres around the world not being beholden to the Mothership. (I assume we are all aware of how InTune/EndPoint slows down when the US wakes up and starts work?)

[Anonymous Coward]

If tariffs are so bad why does the UK / EU etc have so many of them?

Last time I checked (yesterday) the UK and EU have many many hundreds of pages of regulations on the tariff rates on goods import from the US. And elsewhere. Funny how this is never ever mentioned in these "news' stories.

The US also had many many hundreds of pages of regulations on the tariff rates on goods imported into the US. A good 98% of them predate 2017. Funny how this is never ever mentioned in these "news"stories.

Now when you start checking the reciprocal tariff rates US v others especially the history of tariffs up till the 1990's the US had mostly reciprocal tariff rates. Unless there were very good foreign policy or "business reasons". i.e big money lobbying. Then NAFTA changed everything. With China entering the WTO as a coda. Which pretty much finished off whole manufacturing sectors in the US. Those the Japanese had not decimated in the 1970's and 1980's.

What's going on at the moment is reversing NAFTA. Reversing the deindustrialization of whole sectors of the US economy. In preparation for if / when China starts its long promised war against the US and its Asian allies. You know, The ones who actually ramped up defense spending over the last decade. Unlike UK/Europe...

For those who dont pay attention to the news that is actually important China is just finishing up it biggest war exercise for the invasion of Taiwan. The works. Air, sea, and beach landing elements. OS intel feeds have all the details. So looks like a go for 2027 (give or take). Thats the really big story. As for all those Ozzie / Kiwi types did you pay attention to the recent Chinese navy live fire exercise in the Tasman Sea? Thats a typically very subtle CCP message.

So back to the mostly inane ill-informed TDS effluvia.

[Roland6]

Re: If tariffs are so bad why does the UK / EU etc have so many of them?

>” With China entering the WTO as a coda. Which pretty much finished off whole manufacturing sectors in the US. Those the Japanese had not decimated in the 1970's and 1980's.”

This was only possible because US citizens, purchased imported goods. Additionally, US businesses themselves (specifically the business owners who have bankrolled the Republicans) offshored production to China.

In the 1980s and 1990s anyone prepared to take a risk invested in “emerging markets”, predominately Asia and a China. Over the decades these investments have mostly done very well.

The only way the US is going to get back is to follow the UK; in he late 1970s the narrative changed from the UK motor industry to the motor industry in the UK, hence the creation of Nissan’s Sunderland plant and the sale of the remains of British Leyland/Rover Group to BMW. In both cases the work force were extensively retrained to produce quality product.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: If tariffs are so bad why does the UK / EU etc have so many of them?

"Additionally, US businesses themselves ... offshored production to China."

Don't forget the invention of the shipping container, the development of large container vessels and subsequent containerisation of shipping.

[Jonathon Green]

Re: If tariffs are so bad why does the UK / EU etc have so many of them?

The marine diesel engine was quite a big one too.

[Fonant]

Re: If tariffs are so bad why does the UK / EU etc have so many of them?

Tariffs in themselves aren't either "good" or "bad", they're a tool to control trade. Mainly to protect a country's own businesses against being undercut by foreign competitor producers with cheaper labour or fewer safety/health regulations.

Suddenly imposing large tariffs on everything your country imports from anywhere else in the world is, erm, "unusual". Trump is saying to US citizens "if you want to import anything, from anywhere, you're now going to have to pay the US federal government lots of extra tax on it".

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: If tariffs are so bad why does the UK / EU etc have so many of them?

"What's going on at the moment is reversing NAFTA. Reversing the deindustrialization of whole sectors of the US economy. In preparation for if / when China starts its long promised war against the US and its Asian allies. You know, The ones who actually ramped up defense spending over the last decade. Unlike UK/Europe...

The 45th US President killed NAFTA years ago. It's dead and buried and replaced by a newer, better deal for the USA. The Biggliest and bestest ever deal, created by a stable genius. The 47th President seems to think that was a shitty deal that allowed Mexico and Canada to take advantage of the US and be "mean and unfair". That 45th President must have a been a total doofus to allow something like that to happen!

Asian allies? Does that include the same Japan that Trump accused of not having a big enough military? The same Japan that has military restrictions in it's constitution? The constitution written by the US while administering Japan after WW2?

"Japan's constitution, specifically Article 9, constitutionally restricts its military operations by renouncing war as a sovereign right and prohibiting the maintenance of armed forces or the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes"

And as for Europe not spending enough in defence, that is also by design. The US, post WW2, wanted a Europe dependant on the US and discouraged military spending wherever it could, especially Germany. Germany has just recently made legal changes to allow them to spend more on military build up, something which, for obvious reasons, they have been a little reluctant do until now. France as always been an outlier in that respect, but the rest are joining in and increasing spending, and more specifically, wherever possible, spending internally to the EU. No one wants weapons from the US that might have a kill switch in them, or be lower quality.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's been a long time since we thought of

Using tariffs.

It was only a few weeks ago, wasn't it?

Is his memory failing him?

[Anonymous Coward]

Liberation day.

So much winning, he's crashed the markets and wiped trillions of their value!

How's that orange jesus working out for you?

[Spunbearing]

Blanket Tariffs...

I wonder if his supports are wondering why blankets and does this include comforters or baby quilts? On a serious note, there are a good percentage of us in the US that are thinking WTF, how did so many get duped by this guy.

[R Soul]

Trump: we was duped - really?

Duped?

Americans knew he was/is a world-class moron. Americans knew he was/is a rapist and a convicted felon. And a bankrupt. Americans knew he was/is a serial liar and narcissistic egomaniac. Americans knew he has/had no moral compass. Americans knew he was unfit for public office. And still is. Americans knew his previous Administration was shambolic and ineffective. Americans knew his earlier term of office was corrupt and often unconstitutional. Americans knew he committed insurrection and tried to overturn the result of the 2020 election. Americans knew he encouraged a near-coup and the invasion of Congress in 2021. Americans knew he habitually broke the law when in office - and afterwards. Americans knew him and his family were/are scumbag grifters who'd say and do anything for a quick buck.

After all that, how could anyone possibly claim they were duped?

Americans were/are aware of all Trump's defects. Yet a majority - a majority FFS! - still voted for him.

[TRT]

Re: Trump: we was duped - really?

"Americans were/are aware of all Trump's defects. Yet a majority - a majority FFS! - still voted for him."

Government.

Representation of the people, for the people, by the people.

That certainly seems to have worked.

[Eclectic Man]

Re: Blanket Tariffs...

how did so many get duped by this guy

Well, just like in the UK's most recent general election, people disliked the incumbent administration so much that they either voted against it (rather than for the opposition) or did not vote at all, being unable to decide between 'two evils'.

A Muslim commentator in Autumn / Fall last year stated categorically that Harris had already lost the vote because of the Biden administration's support for the Israeli attacks on Gaza after the murderous Hamas attack and taking of hostages. It was not that they agreed with Hamas killing over a thousand people in Israel or the taking of hostages, but that the sheer level of destruction, the continued bombardment of civilian targets including schools, hospitals, refugee areas, and the killing of medical and aid workers was too much to bear. The IFD claims to have targeted 'terrorists' but does not mention civlian casualties, except to claim that they always seek to minimise them. I have never heard any IDF representative state a figure as to how many innocent civilians or children have been killed in IDF attacks. They just immediately emphasise the dead of 7th October.

Recently the attack on a Palestinian Red Crescent ambulance convoy has led to questions being asked. The IDF claims the vehicles were driving toward IDF positions without lights, at night. The sole survivor claims the external and internal lights were on until they came under targeted attack. This sort of action without any effective criticism by the Biden administration doomed Harris to losing the Muslim vote, and therefore the election. remember that these days people choose where they get their news from. The destruction of Gaza is shown on lots of places on the Internet, that some channels do not show it in detail does not stop those interested in finding out any more.

[Ken Hagan]

Re: Blanket Tariffs...

"Harris had already lost the vote because of the Biden administration's support for the Israeli attacks"

Possibly true, but breathtakingly depressing given The Orange One's known crawling subservience to Netanyahu.

I suppose it is like all those Green voters, foolishly thinking that a FPTP election still allows them to "vote with their hearts" without the consequence of letting in the guy who most stands for all that their hearts hate.

[Eclectic Man]

Re: Blanket Tariffs...

One of the reasons for voting for a minor party that has no hope if winning a seat is to at least let e=them know they have some support, and in teh UK may help them to 'save their deposit', which is forfeit if they fail to get a certain proportion of the vote.

[Ken Hagan]

Re: Blanket Tariffs...

Accepted, but perhaps the Presidential ballot is not the best one to use for such signalling. Other elections have less disastrous consequences if your principled vote is likely to let in the worst (from your point of view) of the other candidates.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Blanket Tariffs...

As seems to be evidenced by Trumps power grab, too much of the US "balance of power" triumvirate seems to be based on "gentleman’s agreements" instead of actual, enforceable laws. A President can, at the right time, stuff the Supreme Court with supporters and fire any and all senior federal officials, replacing them with "loyalists" (to him/her, not the country), seemingly on a whim. And neither the remains of the judiciary nor the houses of Congress seem to be able to do anything to reign him/her in. Even when judges, whether partisan or impartial, call him out on lawbreaking, he calls them "traitors" and their lives are upended with death threats from his supporters.

(Yeah, I tried to keep it generic to show how any President could do this, but it's impossible in light of events since January.)

*IF* there's a next President, in particular from whatever remains of the party system and is not a Republican, maybe it's time to put some actual laws in place that can stop this happening again in future. At the very least, a limit on Executive Orders. Say a maximum of 2 per day and 200 per term?, ie use them as intended, for exceptional circumstances. Congress can rescind EO's, but the massive flurry since Jan has made it almost impossible to even keep up with and read them all, never mind study them and propose proper amendments/cancellations/whatever.

[R Soul]

fixing the checks and balances

"maybe it's time to put some actual laws in place that can stop this happening again in future."

Easier said than done. In the US, all laws are underpinned by the Constitution and overseen by the Supreme Court. Which is currently stuffed with Trump arse-kissers. Honest officials who try to uphold the Constitution or are empowered by it are fucked because the Supreme Court will rule against them and for the Trump Administration. Mind you, Trump's getting rid of those honest officials because they're not loyal to him.

Any new laws like the ones you suggest will lose out to a Supreme Court that only does what the President wants - even if it's illegal or unconstitutional. The courts and law enforcement will be unable to keep a crooked President or their clown parade in check.

The brains behind Trump - Thiel and his cronies - worked out how to turn the US into a dictatorship and are now making that a reality. For them, Trump and the Republican Party are merely useful idiots - sock puppets to do their bidding.

[Dan 55]

Re: Blanket Tariffs...

On a serious note, there are a good percentage of us in the US that are thinking WTF, how did so many get duped by this guy.

2/3rds either voted for him or couldn't be bothered to vote against him. Something in the water?

[Tron]

Trump imposes much higher taxes on Americans.

FTFY.

Tariffs are just taxes.

Most politicians would worry about +1%. Not Trump. The Republicans are now the party of high taxation, higher than Americans have ever known. They will get absolutely trashed at the next election. Why? 'It's economy, stupid'.

Watch out for other governments that will use this as an excuse for levying their own tariffs on US tech to bank some extra cash from their citizens.

If you sell luxury goods to rich Americans, they won't notice the price rises. Everyone else, work to increase your non-US sales. It's a big planet. Keep calm and carry on.

This would be a good time for China to roll out a host of bilateral free trade deals. We need cheap solar panels and EVs. They need to sell more to non-Americans.

Trump is simply making America more isolated, less relevant, and poorer.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Trump imposes much higher taxes on Americans.

"Watch out for other governments that will use this as an excuse for levying their own tariffs on US tech"

How about a tariff on streaming services? It would be a Mickey Mouse tax.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Trump imposes much higher taxes on Americans.

"They will get absolutely trashed at the next election."

You're assuming he hasn't made himself the God Emperor by then.

[gnasher729]

Looking at what Trump is doing, the obvious reaction is high tariffs on pharmaceuticals and aluminium, extra high tariffs on aluminium to be use in cars, price increases say 5% or 10% before tariffs to compensate for lost sales, import tariffs on Tesla cars, and a quiet notice to encourage car insurance companies that there will likely be more damage to Tesla in the near future.

[Eclectic Man]

The problem about tariffs on Aluminium is that due to Canada's large capacity for hydroelectricity it is much cheaper to smelt Aluminium in Canada and send it to the US than for the USAfolk to smelt it themselves. For a tariff on Aluminium to work it would have to make smelting in the US cheaper than buying in from Canada. And, of course there is a lead time on building smelting plants etc.

[Alistair]

For a tariff on Aluminium to work it would have to make smelting in the US cheaper than buying in from Canada. And, of course there is a lead time on building smelting plants etc

Eclectic: The etc would be, hmmm, lessee, dams on the Mississippi river or perhaps 7 or 8 nuclear plants? Smelting plants they may well already have, and likely could revitalize several in Ohio that are already mothballed. The powersource lead times are 10 to 20 years.

[Doctor Syntax]

They could import the electricity. Do they have any neighbours who could supply it?

[tiggity]

Cheap energy is key for AL smelting - hence why Iceland produces more than the US - cheap geothermal energy (though US could get some geothermal plants going, they have some

near surface magma zones, but it would not be a super fast process)

[Roland6]

Re: The problem about tariffs on Aluminium

Is just what is "aluminium"...

I see in todays news, the US was debating whether aluminium in the form of either full or empty beverage/food containers was or was not subject to the aluminium tariff...

[neilg]

My brain hurts

"Hence why" Make it stop

[I am the liquor]

"Reciprocal tariffs"

Article needs to be fixed. They are not "levies in response to other countries’ import duties." They are levies in response to other countries' trade surpluses with the US.

The main offence committed by most of the countries subject to the highest tariffs is being too poor to afford the sort of high-priced goods that are still manufactured in the US or Europe.

[Eclectic Man]

HELP!!! Is 4 < 0 ???

OK, so I found this on the internet: https://ustr.gov/issue-areas/reciprocal-tariff-calculations

This is the 'formula' used by the US Treasury to 'calculate' the tariff rates for a specific country indexed as "i".

Dt_i = (x_i - m_i) / (e_i * f_i * m_i)

In the preamble they state that e<0 , but on the explanation after the 'formula', they have set e_i (the elasticity of imports with respect to import prices) at 4. Now when I did mathematics (and I did a Lot of mathematics), 4 > 0.

So am I an idiot, or does the US Treasury not know that 4 > 0?

Oh, and as I have your attention, WTF is "the elasticity of imports with respect to import prices"? And is it a linear function?

[Eclectic Man]

Re: HELP!!! Is 4 < 0 ???

Whoops! Sorry, it was not the US Treasury, but from the Office of the US Trade Representative.

Sorry for any confusion, my bad.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: HELP!!! Is 4 < 0 ???

> Dti = (xi - mi) / (ei * fi * mi)

Dti? Donald trump i********?

[Dan 55]

Re: HELP!!! Is 4 < 0 ???

Seems to be a maths joke, probably regurgitated by ChatGPT from training data it doesn't understand.

[Fred Flintstone]

I have but TWO (related) questions..

1 - who was shorting stock before the announcement?

2 - who is shopping around now?

Don't look at the noise - that's just the distraction that Trump and Musk use to camouflage something else.

The above may just be what is really going on - a pump and dump scam on a massive scale.

Indeed, never seen before in the history of the world, as the orange chaos monger would say.

[FuzzyTheBear]

Reality is

If you want things to improve , get rid of Trump. Captain Bankruptcy has flipped his lid and needs a long rest in a psychiatric clinic .

Too bad for Americans .. but they got what they voted for.

[Kev99]

Ever hear of Smoot-Hartley? Hoover? Black Friday?

Those who fail to learn from history...

[Anonymous Coward]

Idiot boy rides again

While a shit-ton of people around the world (including the US) will ultimately suffer under this brain fart, it sure will be entertaining.

This is comic book levels of supervillain gone wrong.

[Paul Herber]

I bought a copy of New Scientist (a UK-based science news journal) yesterday. One of the lead topics is;

Where does the anus come from?

My instant thought was New York, but currently living in Florida and Washington DC.

[Eclectic Man]

Normal for Norfolk*

Ahem, this is rather embarrassing, but: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2025/apr/04/revealed-how-trump-tariffs-slugged-norfolk-island-and-uninhabited-heard-and-mcdonald-islands

(My emphasis)

"Trade tariffs imposed on tiny Australian territories that are either uninhabited or claim to have no trading relationship with the US appear to have been calculated based on erroneous trade data.

The data relates, at least in part, to shipments mislabelled as coming from remote Norfolk Island, or Heard Island and McDonald Islands, instead of their correct countries of origin, the Guardian can reveal.

Among the erroneously labelled shipments over the past five years from the island territories are shipments of aquarium systems, Timberland boots, wine and parts for a recycling plant.

According to an analysis of US import data and shipping records, multiple shipments of goods were classified as having originated from Norfolk Island or Heard and McDonald islands when neither the company address, nor the port of departure for the shipment, nor the destination port were located in those territories.

In some cases involving Norfolk Island, which is 1,600km north-east of Sydney and has a population of 2,188, the confusion appears to have resulted from the fact that the company’s address or port of departure is Norfolk, UK, or the destination is Norfolk, Virginia in the US, or a company’s registered address in New Hampshire (NH) has been listed instead as Norfolk Island (NI)."

Now don't be mean, in anything as overwhelming as the Trump Tariff Project (TTP) there were bound to be a few small hiccoughs**.

*Normal for Norfolk is an entirely discredited and abysmally bigoted phrase used previously by UK medics to denigrate people from that wonderful (albeit rather flat***) county.

** UK English spelling of 'hiccup'.

*** "Very flat, Norfolk". Attributed to the late Noel Coward.

[navarac]

Re: Normal for Norfolk*

As always, Americans are known to be clueless regarding geography, like everything else. So parochial. The rest of the world should get together and ignore the Yanks; after all, that is what they seem to want.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Normal for Norfolk*

I suppose the McDonald Islands is due to the sales of McDonald's in the US means there must be excessive imports coming from there.

More seriously, I wonder if the source of some of the oddities isn't due to careless data input (Norfolk Island coming from a drop-down list?) but deliberate false declaration as some sort of duty fiddle.

[FuzzyTheBear]

Self inflicted wounds ..

It's totally idiotic to leave a guy that bankrupted 6 times including 2 casinos ( bankrupting 2 casinos ffs ) in charge of the whole country's economy.

Americans get what the voted for. We watch laughing as they loose their institutions , agencies and trillions in the markets ., 5 trillion USD yesterday alone !..

Great show Donnie boy .,. soon you'll have a new milestone in your portfolio : bankrupting the whole bloody USA.

Bravo !

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Self inflicted wounds ..

At least he tried, Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer etc. have pretty much never worked outside politics and have never had to actually take a risk.

[CowHorseFrog]

If trump want to slash the government spending and tahts why he got Musk to try and fire as many government employees as possible, why does he need to raise MORE money in the first place ?

Surely the savings by slashing all that government spending would mean he needs less income for the government.

[MachDiamond]

"Surely the savings by slashing all that government spending would mean he needs less income for the government."

Think of all of the money you could save if you stopped doing any maintenance on your home. It would only work up to the point where something goes rotten for not being maintained. When that something is a bridge or levee, the stakes go a bit higher.

[CowHorseFrog]

Trump and Musk have never mentioned anything remotely connected to maintenance. According to them the only factor to consider is paying anyone is a waste.

[codejunky]

Wow

Again I start with disagreeing with tariffs and in no way support increasing tariffs (for you morons out there who will of course say the opposite). However for those thinking fight tariff with tariff and the EU being big and mighty-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aftiRzT05mQ

The damp squib is as damp squib does. Still happy we left the EU.

[Roland6]

Re: Wow

The laugh (about the Oz idiots in that video from 4:50) is China is due to become the largest economy (2030~2036 according tot he IMF forecast), the forecasts also indicate India will overtake the US 2040~2048 (source: IMF). With the US in recession its looking like the early dates will be hit.