Apple has locked me in the same monopolistic cage Microsoft's built for Windows 10 users

My decade-old and very well-travelled 13" MacBook Pro finally died, and I hoped my new-ish M2 iPad Pro could replace it. Yet no matter how hard I try, an iPad cannot serve me like a Mac does and I can’t help but wonder why. Some of it must be my mindset: Nearly 50 years of using computers equipped with keyboards and screens " …

[gnasher729]

“ Any computer that can't offer me a terminal window, root access, and the ability to type "python" to get into a REPL shell feels fake - an incomplete simulation of a real computer.”

Tell my wife that. She thinks she has a computer, and what you are saying is just a series of meaningless words. And the same is true for gazillions of users.

[Dan 55]

But does she have an iPad or a real computer?

[Rich 2]

I have the opposite problem. My 8 year old son has an iPad. Despite getting him a keyboard and a mouse for it and setting it up with a word processor etc, he insists it’s not a “proper computer” like mine

I’m not saying he’s wrong. Is just a bit frustrating that he’s not conveniently gullible enough!

[GNU Enjoyer]

Why are you allowing apple to attack and spy on your son at teaching him wrong that such depraved arrangement is normal for computing?

You should do better and give him GNU.

[Rich 2]

Because his skills on the command line are limited and the support he would need would drive me nuts.

And I say this as someone who uses (almost exclusively) Linux on a daily basis.

Plus, point me to a GNU system he can tuck under his arm and take anywhere and drop on the floor without breaking (his iPad is well protected) and play games on etc etc.

[a pressbutton]

or even better give him a dog.

GNUs are not easy to keep in built up areas.

[AliceActually]

Dear Gnasher's Wife:

Sorry. You're using it wrong. It won't run python properly. We apologize for the inconvenience...

[jake]

If you want a general purpose computer ...

... get a general purpose computer. It's hardly rocket surgery, now is it?

What's that? The OS? Pick the one that runs the software you need. Again, easy ... but you might have to re-think your hardware.

_{If you already have religion about things computer, nobody can help you but you. Enjoy your cult. When you want out, ask for help.}

[Joe W]

Re: If you want a general purpose computer ...

Don't know about "cult". I think for most people it's what they feel familiar with. Most people here will be able to work with any modern UI, even Windows 11 (sorry... could not resist). I have no clue about Mac, apart from the ones preceeded by "Big" (and those are an abomination), but I think I could work with one of them (the fruity variant, not the beefy one).

All of that conditional to your premise: Does it run the software I need?

[jake]

Re: If you want a general purpose computer ...

"I think for most people it's what they feel familiar with. "

I hear what you are saying ... But try to replace it with equally functional kit and observe the reaction.

[LybsterRoy]

Re: If you want a general purpose computer ...

-- I think for most people it's what they feel familiar with. --

That's very similar to my definition of "user friendly" - its what you're used to (especially if you've been using it for the last 20 years)

[Stuart Castle]

Re: If you want a general purpose computer ...

RE: "I think for most people it's what they feel familiar with"

It is, and you'd be surprised how many people go for what they are familiar with even if told otherwise..

An example. A few years ago, I was providing on site AV support for a major conference on evacuation (which was every bit as boring as it sounds), and one thing they said stuck with me. No matter how clearly you signpost the emergency exits, most people when evacuating, will try and get out the way they came in..

Unless given a vert good reason to change, a lot of people will stick with what they know.

Of course, another potential cause of reluctance to change is vendor lock in. If a user has spent a significant amount of money on apps or proprietary add ons for their device, they may be relucatant to change as they feel they will be abandoning those apps and add ons..

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: If you want a general purpose computer ...

"It is, and you'd be surprised how many people go for what they are familiar with even if told otherwise.."

Microsoft products are, of course, a counter-example to this. The vendor changes things and users just go along with it because they perceive they have no other choice.

[Snake]

Re: users just go along with it because they perceive they have no other choice

Or conversely, we just don't care.

Gasp. Shock. Horror.

Whilst Linux users are insulting themselves on their internet forums because they're fighting one another over KDE versus GNOME, and who's desktop customization is best, the rest of us just get to work, do what caused us to be in front of a computer in the first place, and move on with our lives.

We do NOT fixate on stupid little things that you Type-A OCD people have decided must be "important". Our OS UI is not the end-all of "importance". Important is getting the project done and then move on with the other 1,000 things we need to do during our day.

We deal with it. We minimize the inconvenience in order to achieve a greater goal. We complete our work ASAP and then move on.

Maybe you people need to learn this lesson? I've tried to get this through to you over many years of being here but you OCD'ers just don't get it.

[Greg 38]

Re: users just go along with it because they perceive they have no other choice

don't forget the systemd religious denominations

"Whilst Linux users are insulting themselves on their internet forums because they're fighting one another over KDE versus GNOME, and who's desktop customization is best, the rest of us just get to work, do what caused us to be in front of a computer in the first place, and move on with our lives."

[druck]

Re: users just go along with it because they perceive they have no other choice

Top posting in a forum? Will Windows users ever learn?

[Dan 55]

Re: users just go along with it because they perceive they have no other choice

Top posting in a forum? Will Windows users ever learn?

Magic 8 ball says: Outlook not so good.

[keithpeter]

Re: users just go along with it because they perceive they have no other choice

"I've tried to get this through to you over many years of being here but you OCD'ers just don't get it."

Years? Good Lord. Have you no work to do?

[Benegesserict Cumbersomberbatch]

Re: users just go along with it because they perceive they have no other choice

I agree with your point about the fruitlessness of arguments about the interface. That's a matter of taste, and people have known since the Romans that there's no point arguing about that.

What has happened as a result of the two corporate OS makers' strategies is that we have been made content to relegate a fundamentally important question about computing to something like an abstract philosophical point, and that is: Does my computer do what I want? When I run a FOSS desktop or application, it reassures me to know that if I find some idiosyncrasy of the system's behaviour, I could find the source code that explains it, and change it if I want. The corporate alternatives have literally made it illegal to try the same thing if you choose them. We take it on trust that there isn't an edge case where Excel or whatever will make 2+2=5 if the designer's intent is that. under circumstances of their own choosing, they want it to be. That's an absurd example and we hope that no-one could or would sell a piece of software so designed, but cannot know. Analogise that out to your browser/search history, patterns of work, personal communication exchanges, everything we use modern IT for, and you realise exactly how much control over our lives has been yielded to black-box corporations in the interests of moving on with our lives. Stop and ask yourself if it is your life, now and again. That comfortable interface might not feel so comfortable.

The author's point of view that "only two of [the OSs] are fit for a workplace desktop" sounds like it comes from someone who either hasn't tried, or is subject to corporate lock-in because they need to use that one application that's only available on a commercial OS.

[druck]

Re: users just go along with it because they perceive they have no other choice

I automatically assumed he meant IOS and Linux, as who in their right might would choose to suffer with what Windows has become?

[find users who cut cat tail]

Re: users just go along with it because they perceive they have no other choice

> the rest of us just get to work

If that was true you would switch to FreeBSD as easily as you switch to a new version of MS OS where they changed everything again. Do you?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: the rest of us just get to work,

Mmm, yes. Except that some functionality I rely on has just been moved, renamed, or outright removed for the THIRD TIME THIS MONTH and I have to keep figuring out how to do today what I did by longstanding reflex yesterday instead of ... getting to work.

Not to say that the Linux ecosystem is immune to this, but at least when something gets changed you've got a good chance of effectively un-changing it.

[chriskno]

Re: If you want a general purpose computer ...

And Apple gives you a choice? Gosh their brainwashing is very effective.

[Headley_Grange]

Re: If you want a general purpose computer ...

"No matter how clearly you signpost the emergency exits, most people when evacuating, will try and get out the way they came in."

Many years ago I went to a concert. It was all seated and as I went in security told the woman in front of me that she had to walk back and round and go to her seat down the other aisle. She got annoyed and had a bit of a "my seats just there why can't I..?" hissy fit at the security bloke. He said something like "if there's an emergency then people will go out the way they came in so if we get you trained on the way in you're more likely to survive on the way out." She shut up and went back the right way.

[Eclectic Man]

Re: If you want a general purpose computer ...

No matter how clearly you signpost the emergency exits, most people when evacuating, will try and get out the way they came in.

Thera re several reasons for this.

At one company we had a 'fire drill'. On the top floor, we were told that when the alarm sounded (we had been warned, so it was 'realistic') we would assemble at the designated fire escape door. This door was secured by a breakable glass tube, and a person ad been designated to break it (no one else was allowed to break it). Well the designated person did not turn up for over 5 minutes, at which point it was decided that the padlock which allowed the glass tube to be replaced would be unlocked to avoid breaking the tube. Another wait for over 5 minutes while the key was found, padlock removed, glass rod safely secured, door opened. We all trooped obediently down three double flights of stairs to the ground floor external steel door with steel reinforced glass panels to find it - locked. So we all had to retrace our steps up the stairs.

People with any sense either check out the emergency exits before there is an emergency, or remember that their way into the building was free of obstructions and choose 'common sense' over obedience. I have seen external scaffolding obstructing the outside of a fire exit, fire exits and fire doors propped open with fire extinguishers and other abominations. Having once been in a building where there was a genuine fire alarm (some UPS's decided to burst into flames one the ground floor), I am a bit sensitive to this, maybe overly so. If the route I entered a building seems to me to be the shortest and safest route out in an emergency, I may very well take it.

[Bebu sa Ware]

Re: If you want a general purpose computer ...

I am a bit sensitive to this, maybe overly so. If the route I entered a building seems to me to be the shortest and safest route out in an emergency, I may very well take it.

Try working in a University Chemistry department for motivation. Not only fires but they also do a decent line in "bangs."

The ANU RSC one was fortunate in that it occurred on Poetsday† and everyone was down the rubbity‡ most likely after a long lunch so no human casualties. (Must have been francophiles. :)

_{† Friday ‡ Pub}

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: If you want a general purpose computer ...

"Does it run the software I need?"

Remove the definite article from that sentence and try it again.

[John Robson]

Re: If you want a general purpose computer ...

"Does it run software I need?"

That just feels incomplete as a sentence.

Maybe add the word "all" instead?

[jake]

Re: If you want a general purpose computer ...

Software is an uncountable noun ... maybe add all as well, just for the pedants.

But I don't, and won't. Never heard anyone gripe about it before.

The current vernacular doesn't necessarily agree with 19th century so-called "rules".

_{If you find a machine that runs all the software I need, please let me know ... I'll buy several.}

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: If you want a general purpose computer ...

Golumn version: "Does it runs my softwareses?"

[JimboSmith]

Re: If you want a general purpose computer ...

My long suffering mum has an iPhone and a Mac because Which (the consumer organisation) told her that they were the best. Except recently Apple made changes to IOS and moved stuff on her iPhone. Some apps were put into groups/folders without her permission/knowlege and as it doesn’t take much to light the blue touchpaper with her……..She’s gone off Apple. She asked what I used and when I said Android and Linux she looked at me blankly. I then explained that there are more OS’s than windows and Mac and IOS etc. however given she’s got the latest IOS phone that cost a packet she’s probably not going to change that. Doesn’t stop her from slagging off Apple at every opportunity she gets though.

[algol60forever]

Re: If you want a general purpose computer ...

IMO, it's been probably decades since Which's aim was to help consumers - now it just gives them a limited choice of stuff they've been given to try.

Pretty much like any on-line car magazine.

As for Apple - well - I've had pretty much every bit of kit pass my desk since the 80's and the frustrations of using it never went away, from

development platforms to networking and servers.

Now they've got a solid 'business' model there's absolutely no chance of change. Can't sniff at $162 billion in cash, can you. I call it the Apple Tax.

[Dan 55]

Re: If you want a general purpose computer ...

Developers went to Macs back in the day because the OS had a real OS and a usable GUI and the hardware was nice, but since then a lot of water has passed under the bridge. The hardware is glued down, the OS has been handcuffed with both hands behind its back and the GUI get less usable after every year... it's past time for developers to find an alternative and now there are more alternatives than there were before.

[Andrew Scott]

Re: If you want a general purpose computer ...

Don't know about that. ever try to add memory to a mac 128 or connect it to a network? Local talk? really? Monochrome display for years, not that the cga display was very good, but you could replace the video.

[Dan 55]

Re: If you want a general purpose computer ...

Well, I meant the early Intel period before the gluegun and messing around with the OS. Perhaps "back in the day" was the wrong phrase to use.

[Mage]

Re: If you want a general purpose computer ...

And do Apple make computers or outsource?

[chivo243]

Re: If you want a general purpose computer ...

Back in '98 I called it the right tool for the job... I have used Apple since classic 9.2, really hated it then. When OSX came out, I stopped using Windows as a main OS. I still preach the right tool for the job.

[J.G.Harston]

Re: If you want a general purpose computer ...

But the OS that allows the software I need to run has a built-in timebomb that self destructs at some arbitary point determined by the manufacturer. I still use one PC with Windows XP for PDP11 development because it Just Works(tm). But I can't get a web browser that manages to not crash under the bloat of most websites nowadays to run on it because the self-destruct has been triggered. And the later OSs kill my PDP11 development environment.

Kudos to El Reg, I'm typing this reply on Firefox 53 on WinXP through my firewall and it Just Works. If I just wave Farceberk anywhere near it it dies so hard I have to press the proper hardware reset button.

[jake]

Re: If you want a general purpose computer ...

I do most of my PDP11 work on Slackware-stable, some on Slackware-current. (Most)Testing is on SIMH on the same box, before I fire up the old hardware for tweaking and peaking.

It has worked for me since SIMH became viable for this kind of thing ... 30 years or so. I fully expect it to continue working for the next 50+, assuming Slackware still exists. After that, I seriously doubt I'll care anymore.

[neutrino23]

Re: If you want a general purpose computer ...

You are still developing for the PDP11? Long ago I made a living writing software for the LSI-11/23 and then the LSI-11/73. I had no idea they were still around. Best wishes.

There are only a few major OS systems around because it is so hard to build one and then you need lots of users to justify the cost of support.

I haven't looked, but I guess you could find some open source code for spread sheets, word processors and such so that you could always check for what was happening under the hood.

[jake]

Re: If you want a general purpose computer ...

In my case it's not exactly what I'd call development work. Mainly research, maintenance and restoration of old scientific systems (somebody's got to do it!), combined with a misguided sense of tradition. It can also be quite lucrative.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: If you want a general purpose computer ...

I too use XP (because it Just Works), but quite frankly that original Firefox is pretty unusable. There are so many websites that open as a blank, or throw a complete wobbler as you know. Have you tried Mypal, a FF fork? I use v. 29.3, It works with many more websites and generally holds together, even with loads of tabs open. Later versions also work, I also have Mypal 68.12 installed, but it tends to fall over and die without warning. Also uses the same old-type add-on/extensions as old FF.

[Persona]

Horses for courses

Tablets are for consuming things produced by others. If you want to produce things that require cognitive effort you need a keyboard and mouse to be productive.

Yes there are exceptions, but this holds true for most.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Horses for courses

Consuming????

Whey you WATCH a movie, LISTEN to some audio or READ a book, you don't consume anything as the file (information) is not destroyed.

STOP THIS NONSENSE!

[jake]

Re: Horses for courses

If it helps, you can keep telling yourself that that is what it means, consumer.

[Dave K]

Re: Horses for courses

You are consuming information - audio, visual or whatever.

[An_Old_Dog]

Re: Horses for courses

Welcome to the world of illiteral, illogical marketing slang.

Marketers and solicitors are forces of entropy which destroy the consistency and logical elements of human language.

Yesterday I saw something labelled "ORGANYC", spelt with a 'Y', so that the product could escape the legal requirements applying to consumer goods labelled "organic".

[collinsl]

Re: Horses for courses

That's been happening for years - it's why people invented terms like "lite" etc.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Horses for courses

It wasn't until you wrote out "organic" that I realized that's what they meant. My brain was stuck thinking "organ yc"?

[J.G.Harston]

Re: Horses for courses

Organee, see?

[jake]

Re: Horses for courses

The definition of "organic" food simply means the farmer has paid a state agency a fee to verify that said food was grown to a certain standard. Personally, I refuse to pay that rather high fee (which I would have to pass on to my customers), so I can't sell it as "Organic", even though it is, in fact, grown to that exact same standard (most would say better, actually).

However, there is nothing stopping me from marketing it as "organically grown".

_{Not that I market it, y'unnerstand ... mostly I grow for family, employees and friends; we give away most of the excess Some we sell to restaurants and specialty shops.}

[Bebu sa Ware]

Re: Horses for courses

"ORGANYC"

Organy^© protected term describing food like material containing animal organs typically the likes of foetid dingo kidneys and other offal too disgusting to be legally incorporated into sausages.

[that one in the corner]

Re: Horses for courses

Calling you "the consumer" is a sleight of hand, hiding the fact that they are busily trying to consume you: your funds, your mind, your heart.

We must be ever vigilant, never letting down our - oooh, a new episode on Netflix!

[NXM]

Re: Horses for courses

I'm not a consumer! I'm a free man!

[ajadedcynicaloldfart]

Re: Horses for courses

@NXM

You are showing your age! And given that I know what you are on about, I've just shown mine! Damn it.

[Captain Slog]

Re: Horses for courses

@NXM

You are number 6.

[Ken Shabby]

Re: Horses for courses

Who is number 1.

[Tim_the_Unenchanter]

Re: Horses for courses

You are, number 6

[Excused Boots]

Re: Horses for courses

I am Number 2

[Eclectic Man]

Re: Horses for courses

One, Two and Three are dead.

I am number Four.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_Number_Four)

[keithpeter]

Re: Horses for courses

@MXM

Watch out for Rover.

[Bebu sa Ware]

Re: Horses for courses

"Be seeing you." lb

Coincidentally Six of One are holding a convention April 11-13 at Portmeirion (cunningly named PortmeiriCon 2025. ;)

And I thought Trekkies and Wholigans were tragics. Please don't tell me there's a Blake's 7 appreciation society.

[tiggity]

Re: Horses for courses

Its been many years since I last visited Portmeirion (with the family, nit for a con) - but I do recall there was a shop selling Prisoner merchandise so I'm guessing enough visitors there are Prisoner fans (at that time) which was decades after the series ended.

A quick web search indicates the Prisoner shop still there.

[John Robson]

Re: Horses for courses

Even a decade ago you could easily write a book on an iPad...

Indeed the uni-tasking interface was a benefit...

Yes a bluetooth keyboard was used, but not everything creative is video editing or coding.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Horses for courses

I could write a book on a pieces of paper with a pencil ... BUT the real question is would you choose to ???

The ipad or any tablet is NOT the most usable of tools to perform MANY tasks.

As stated elsewhere it is mainly a device for 'consumption' of content created eleswhere.

The main problem with tablets & phones is that the use of touch-sensitive interfaces 'limits' the usability.

I still find touch-sensitive devices of all brands can often struggle with recognizing the 'touch', this interupts the creative flow so often !!!

Another example of this type of interfaces weakness is in many new cars that have 'Touch-screen' controls for everything BUT this is not usable when driving because you have to take your attention from driving to navigating the on-screen interface.

Simple tactile switches & knobs can be operated by memory of spatial location without distracting from the primary purpose of 'Driving' !!!

Real-life tactile interfaces still are the best.

:)

[John Robson]

Re: Horses for courses

"BUT the real question is would you choose to ???"

For many reasons... My wife did both - using paper and pencil for the vast majority of the planning and then an iPad to actually write the text of the book.

As I mentioned in my post - the unitasking interface was a significant benefit... The touch screen was completely irrelevant, since when writing a book the vastly dominant interface is the keyboard, and that was a better keyboard than laptops, and not tied to the screen, so the screen could be at a more comfortable distance than the keyboard (or the keyboard could be comfortably close).

And not everyone has difficulty with a touch screen - indeed many people even seem to like them for laptops now.

In terms of driving I agree, I much prefer physical controls (or having a passenger), and will do until voice commands are good enough to be the primary interface. Even glancing down to grab a heating dial can be enough time to cause a near miss (no I didn't hit the car in front, yes I was overtaken by a cloud of "ex-tyre").

But for writing... a bluetooth keyboard *is* tactile physical controls, in fact I'm using one now - because my laptop is further away from me than makes a comfortable typing distance (it's on a decent stand as part of my desk setup - yes I know it doesn't need to be a laptop but that's what work provides).

[okand]

I've been using a 2018 11 inch ipad pro as my personal "laptop" since around then and it is still going strong. The keyboard case when it was released in 2020 was pricy but works well.

As you mention in the article iSH, aShell, BlinkShell, SecureShellfish, and Pythonista might not be quite enough but it gets the job done for me. I just want an arm-based return of the 12 inch macbook to be honest. Small computers rule and the 13 inch air is too big.

[Anonymous Coward]

I have the big screeny Pro version for home and just ordered two Air for work - sadly a bit too old for small screens, plus it's handy for presentations as long as you stick Soundscape from Rogue Amoeba on it (far better control over audio output).

Speaking of which, I was amazed at the sound Apple manages from basically miniature speakers, if someone can explain to me what trick they use I'd be grateful because it was not really expecting that, it's .. well, weird.

[Lon24]

Yes, you really need two laptops. A big one and a small one. Sadly, even if you have kept an old 32 bit netbook running most software now demands FHD resolution to actual have the OK/Cancel buttons visible in a pop-up box. Even HD struggles and your choice of OSs is very limited.

Still you can make a very usable crapbook from one of those 4/64GB 11" machines that users discover cannot really run Windows and sell, almost unused, for a song. Linux runs well and you have little worries about it being mashed, stolen as it fits in a bag no one would guess has a laptop. That has made by Android tablet redundant especially as sleep mode consumes almost no power and merely opening the lid gives you everything. If most of your work is SSH-ing intosevers - then the crapbook's Celeron grunt (lack of) is irrelevant.

Big laptops are 'desktops' operating in different locations rather than 'on the move' as anybody sitting next to a 16" monster on the tube will testify.

[Doctor Syntax]

a 16" monster

That's not a monster, it's a toy. 17½" is the smallest adequate and, sadly, the largest practical.

[Anonymous Coward]

17½"? Rather you than me!

You do realise that, out of context, this post makes you sound like the most unbelievable size queen?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: 17½"? Rather you than me!

Bwahahaha, love it.

Thanks for the laugh :).

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: 17½"? Rather you than me!

most unbelievable size queen?!

Given the likely diversion of blood flow I foresee the possessor passing out (syncope) with excitement.

[David 132]

Re: 17½"? Rather you than me!

Pfft, 12” is perfectly adequate for anyone, as long as it’s as thick around as your thigh.

[jake]

Concur.

A side benefit of a larger screen is an almost usable keyboard.

_{Do they even bother making touch-typists anymore, or are we considered obsolete?}

[doublelayer]

Yes, they still make touch typists. I can also touch type, or at least I have, on tiny netbook keyboards that fit next to a 9-inch screen. The layout was annoying because some punctuation got bumped and I need all the weird punctuation eventually, but I was able to type normal text on it just fine. Maybe your touch typing education was too limited to adapt to different shapes?

[jake]

"Maybe your touch typing education was too limited to adapt to different shapes?"

Or perhaps you have little, tiny hands?

::shrugs::

[doublelayer]

In fact, I think the ease I had when using that was a result of having touch typed for quite a long time. I was younger when using them, as you'd have guessed from it being a netbook which nobody really makes anymore, but I'm not sure that made my hands much smaller than they are nowadays. I still prefer a somewhat larger keyboard, but not so much that it's going to produce much change in my laptop size preferences. For instance, I doubt that everyone who appreciated devices with even smaller keyboards (the Psion devices seem to have a lot of fans and people used Blackberry keyboards and are still building them into things today), had homunculus-derived hands. Maybe they just found the portability justified learning to use something smaller and had the dexterity to make use of it. I also have a feeling that you could learn to use those keyboards too, but your difficulty using them is due to not having a reason to build the muscle memory. I had a reason: the netbook was the computer I had, so I used it and soon enough I used it quickly.

I do wonder why you wanted to make a generational thing out of this. Most of the people here are going to type a lot, and thus they will, by education or by evolution, be relatively good at it. This doesn't really depend on how old they are. However, if we must make everything generational, the younger generation are those taught and expected to turn in work by typing it on a keyboard, whereas older people studied at a time when writing it down on paper was the way to complete most of their work. Which one would we expect to have a higher proportion of those trained to type quickly? We could also try to assess how many people were offered and received typing-specific courses, but that would be difficult to calculate because you'd need to collect a lot of information from individual schools (I say you as I'm definitely not going to collect it) and it wouldn't tell you anything about the number of people who didn't receive that education but learned to touch type on their own because it really helps with the efficiency of entering text that way.

[blu3b3rry]

One of the nicer eBay purchases I made among my junk pile small collection of computers is a 11.5" HP Elitebook 2170P which HP never seem to have made in that screen size and form factor before or since. 3rd gen i5 and 16GB of ram max mean it's just as capable as it was for documents, web browsing and office bits as when it was new. Battery is knackered but I pair it up with a USB powerbank and can get 3-4 hours out of it easily enough. It makes a pretty good "chuck in a bag" machine.

The biggest downside is it seems to have been somewhat rare in the UK so good luck finding spare parts on eBay....!

Those cheapo Celeron crapbooks are a good buy if you're aware of their limits though.

[Doctor Syntax]

"Small computers rule and the 13 inch air is too big."

Ah, what it is to be young and have as yet unimpeded eye-sight (or possibly to not want more than one thing visible on-screen at the same time).

[jake]

"(or possibly to not want more than one thing visible on-screen at the same time)"

Consider that the short-attention-span theater set (most modern consumers) can't multitask. At all.

[Anonymous Coward]

About that office suite

I've now been using LibreOffice for a good 10 years, and the amount of time it has saved me is impossible to measure in monetary terms, but I can tell it saved me from a lot of swearing. I've been looking at the commercial versions too for a new company I may be setting up.

At my current work we have 'cloud' strategy, and that works not well. We have an in/out port utilisation of about 45-50% so plenty of bandwidth, but as my work involves multiple mailboxes it's slow as moulasses to switch and God help you if someone at Azure as much as sneezes. Add to that that I can see what Microsoft logs (everything - ask your administrator to show you MS Actions and Purview) and I cannot see a real method of preventing MS from acquiring that and the fact that MICROSOFT is the last in the authentication chain, not us (read: no need for a backdoor if you're the one issuing access tokens) and frankly, I wouldn't trust then father than Trump can walk up a ramp.

So at home there's no trace of Microsoft, and if absolutely have to it's via a sandboxed browser. And neither of Adobe, by the way.

[alisonken1]

Re: About that office suite

Forced to MS at work (typical). But home is a Linux box. There are a couple of things I need to run that's MS only (AD for one), then the Windows VM works just fine only having one or two things in the VM that I need.

And the wife? She says only MS stuff works for her, but she has no problem taking over my Linux box when she needs something done or when she's facebooking.

[MJI]

Re: About that office suite

I can create and save a file in Libreoffice, but Word will not let me.

I have to copy an existing one, then name and place it where I want, then open it.

It then saves where I want.

A simple process made hard.

[jake]

Re: About that office suite

The only thing I need MS for is AutoCAD ... and then, I use ACad2K on Win2K, so it's basically a dedicated CAD box. Airgapped, of course.

Well, technically I don't need either ... but I haven't yet transferred several decades of CAD drawings over to a FOSS machine yet. It's happening, but slowly.

Wifey runs Slackware. She used to dual-boot with XP, but around 2009 she realized that she hadn't booted into the MS side of things in months, so we re-claimed that partition to give her more working space on Slack.

[Hans Neeson-Bumpsadese]

I have a first-generation Surface Go (magically, both a laptop and a tablet) that still works perfectly, and which will become so much electronic detritus later this year because Microsoft refuses to let its own hardware run its own operating system.

I don't really understand this statement. If the device is working fine now then, barring any physical component failure, it should continue to run.

I've made this comment before on these forums - lack of support doesn't mean a thing just stops working. Admittedly, you may lose some security updates, but I think there's a balance to be struck between ongoing judicious use versus just adding to more e-waste to landfill.

[Dave K]

Agreed, plus there are still options for keeping it supported:

1) Install a Linux distro

2) Install Windows 11 via Rufus with the hardware checks disabled.

The second option isn't completely perfect as you'll have to do an annual "feature" update from installation media as Windows Update won't grab feature updates automatically, but it does work.

[Doctor Syntax]

Given that this is a Microsoft product, is it tied down to the point where you can't do that? Is there the equivalent of a boot menu that recognises external bootable media?

[doublelayer]

Yes, there is. They tell you how to on their website. Also, is there a reason you'd expect Microsoft to have locked that down, since they have had lots of chances to do so and have consistently not, unlike other companies who have had lots of chances to do so (Apple, pretty much every Android OEM) and have often chosen to?

[williamyf]

Yet another option, give ms U$D 30 to microsoft, and enjoy another year of security updates/patches.

yet another option, if you use $Something365, move to Microsoft365 and enjoy 3 years of complimentary security updates/patches for Win10.

There are other options, but those involve a lot of sailing, or bending the license into a pretzel. Some people's moral compass does not allow that. Other people's moral compass allow it, but they are forced by higher authorities not to do it.

[An_Old_Dog]

Living Cavalierly

On out-of-software-support devices, I:

• Repurpose the device in some way which does not involve the Internet touching it; or,

• Install* a supported operating system onto it; or,

• Strip it for for parts.

I wil not run the risk of running an unsupported OS on a device which can be touched by the Internet, but you're free to do as you like.

* I will not get into continuing battles with Microsoft or Apple to hack one of their operating systems to run on "unsupported" hardware. That path would eventually lead to tears -- for me. I don't want a hacked OS stop working after a software update from Microsoft or Apple. "Don't worry, there'll be a hack-patch Real Soon Now." isn't an acceptable answer to me.

[Doctor Syntax]

"lack of support doesn't mean a thing just stops working"

Indeed, depending on the nature of the "support" lack of it may mean the lack of a monthly lottery of it stopping working.

[doublelayer]

Let's be honest

Most of these criticisms leave out lots of details. I'm about to defend all the big companies, but if we truly think they're worthy of reproach, it is helpful to be honest in our complaints. They're guilty of a lot of things, but that doesn't make them guilty of everything.

First, in defense of Apple, your complaints against the iPad are no shell, no root, and no Python. You knew all of those things were missing when you bought it. If you don't like things where you don't get root, iOS has always been that. It would make a lot of sense if you refused to buy one and cited that as the reason. It's certainly one reason why I won't get an iPad, though I have grudgingly accepted it on an iPhone. Buying an expensive iPad and complaining that it runs the OS it always has seems a little confusing. Even without that, you've pointed out that you can, in fact, get a Python REPL and a shell, restricted though they are. For some people, that might be enough. If they are not enough for you, maybe it would have made more sense not to buy the iPad and spend that money on a computer where you can have the tools you need. If everyone thought that way, it would demonstrate what Apple needs to change to get people buying iPads. As it is now, they're going to keep making their locked down iOS environment because it seems to be fine for enough buyers, you included.

To compare this with an old Surface is not a fair comparison. Yes, Microsoft shouldn't be cutting off the hardware they are. They have no good technical reason. However, unlike Apple, you have three choices you can make freely with that Surface. You can bypass the hardware checks and install Windows 11 anyway, and it works, you can install Linux on it, with pretty good driver support, or you can install any other OS that is compatible with the processor. This is the benefit of having an open and standard architecture, and it is something that Windows machines have, Intel Macs had, ARM Macs don't really have but they are at least open, and iPads have never and will never have. It shouldn't be junk if you are willing to spend a little time on making it work, and if you can make productive use of PyTorch, you have enough skill to accomplish it. Oddly, I'm much happier to blame Microsoft for this than Apple (Microsoft at least did something bad recently to it whereas Apple didn't change anything), and yet, I'd still rather have that old Surface than the new iPad.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Let's be honest

Also depends on your use case. I need commercial apps to work, so that's an iPad, not a Linux tablet (I'm hoping that changes, but I have seen countless 'years of the Linux desktop' and it ain't happening).

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Let's be honest

None commercial apps also need to work and they do.

[doublelayer]

Re: Let's be honest

As ever, what works for one may not work for another. The stuff I want to run mostly runs on Linux, and what doesn't usually runs in a VM. Most importantly, I can typically expect to run most or all of the software I need on Windows, Mac OS, or Linux, and it comes down to a preference, but try to run it on iOS or Android and it stops working either at all or functionally. The author mentioned wanting to run PyTorch, which isn't going to run well or at all on a tablet, so they need a laptop. They should have known that before buying a tablet, and by choosing to do so anyway, they are making the wrong choice for them. In this case, they aren't happy because the processor in that tablet is powerful enough to run their software, but that is not the only relevant factor. Sometimes, the OS being capable of running the thing is the bigger stumbling block, and sometimes, it's environment is the problem. People who don't want to run things that an iPad won't run may be just fine with the iPad.

[Scoat]

Re: Let's be honest

Supporting and testing old hardware isn't free. Windows 11 has major under-the-covers changes, and getting those running on the same old hardware that Windows 10 supported would absolutely take engineering resources. You need alternate code paths for missing hardware features and outdated interfaces, plus full forks (like 32-bit) and testing for all that hardware. The question isn't just "will this run Windows 11?", but "is Microsoft committing to support this hardware long-term?" (Hence all the "unsupported" hardware that runs Win11 just fine.)

Could Microsoft have put in the resources? Absolutely. Keeping Windows 10 running on old 32-bit systems hasn't been free, either. But Windows 11 only supporting newer hardware doesn't feel like Microsoft did "something wrong" to me, just that they didn't go as above and beyond as they usually do.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Let's be honest

The problem isn't that Microsoft isn't "supporting" older hardware (they haven't done this for previous Windows versions either), but that Microsoft is actively blocking the installation of Windows 11 on older, "unsupported" systems. This is what's new.

No-one asked Microsoft to provide support for older systems, just not to go out of their way to block the installation. Something for which to implement they invested additional development resources just to prevent people from installing W11 on "unsupported" systems.

So yes, Microsoft did something wrong here.

>> Windows 11 has major under-the-covers changes, and getting those running on the same old hardware that Windows 10 supported would absolutely take engineering resources.

And yet, after circumventing the install blocks Windows 11 runs fine on unsupported hardware dating back to Ivy Bridge (2012 era), despite Microsoft not investing any engineering resources. Go figure.

BTW, the under-the-hood changes in W11 aren't as big as you seem to believe, especially outside the UX. In fact, there is more commonality with Windows 11 and Windows 10 than with Windows 10 and Windows 7, and the latter two could all still be installed on "unsupported" hardware without any of the artificial blockers that exist in Windows 11.

[mark l 2]

Re: Let's be honest

" Windows 11 has major under-the-covers changes"

If you class things like the artificial barrier of 'requiring' a TPM 2.0 as major under the cover change, how come these requirements can be bypassed with just some tweaks to the registry and then a none supported PC will happily run Windows 11?

I think you have fallen for the Microsoft hype train, Windows 11 is just Windows 10 with the furniture rearranged a bit and a new lick of paint.

[J.G.Harston]

Re: Let's be honest

It's not "Windows 11 won't work on this hardware", but "I don't care what Windows 11 runs on, Windows XP works perfectly fine on this hardware, and all the applications I need run perfectly fine on this hardware, but out of all my usage needs, *WEBSITES* have become so ****ked up that the only web browsers that can cope with them refuse to run on XP, so I can't do anything web related on it, so am forced to buy a separate system specifically for web stuff, and discover that this secondary system won't let me run my software that runs perfectly fine on my Windows XP system.

[ShameElevator]

Re: Let's be honest

Windows 10 didn't support a lot of hardware. However, the big difference between Windows 10 and Windows 11 is that Microsoft didn't care about the hardware support with Windows 10 - if it ran, great, if it didn't, they wouldn't help you. But most of the time, Windows 10 just ran on the old and not supported hardware and nobody knew that their hardware was not supported. Windows 11 changed that by blocking you from installing Windows 11 on unsupported hardware.

[Headley_Grange]

Perspective

I guess it's in the mind of the beholder. The article's author seems to want an iPad as a more portable laptop. However, I bet that many iPad users are like me - they take an iPad as a more useable iPhone when they're travelling and don't want to lug a laptop around. From this perspective my 1st gen iPad Pro is fine.

[Yankee Doodle Doofus]

Re: Perspective

< "The article's author seems to want an iPad as a more portable laptop."

My guess is it's more about the cost buying a new device compared to using something already owned. I don't see how having to carry an iPad, keyboard, and pointing device makes it "more portable" than a MacBook Air.

[Tim99]

Raspberry Pi and iPad

I often connect a Raspberry Pi Zero 2 W to my 13" M4 iPad Pro. The iPad is cellular, the Zero runs bookworm Lite 64bit. The iPad connection is over WiFi to the iPad hotspot with Termius or RaspController. They, with the GitHub app do most of what I need with Python etc. particularly when travelling with Magic Keyboard. The keyboard can charge the iPad, and at the same time the iPad can power the Zero.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Raspberry Pi and iPad

Casts mind back to the days of the 1907 that occupied a large building, punched cards, a fixed disk so big and heavy that i needed its own, additional and its bearings had to be aligned with the Earth's axis to avoid precession destroying them and from which we had a 100k-word allowance. AND FOR A FEW OF US UPPER_CASE ONLY TELETYPE ACCESS.

|Rotten old capitalism seems to have given us these advances, iPad, Pi and cellular all, despite Ztec's ravings below.

[LBJsPNS]

Re: Raspberry Pi and iPad

Nothing you said takes anything away from what Ztec has said.

[2tec]

Classism breeds corruption which produces incompetency. None of these evil corporations are capable of producing ethical products. Welcome to the collapse of civilization thanks to greed and selfishness.

[JimmyPage]

The march of the "app"

Too many things are now "app" only, and it's a fucking pain in the arse.

Take - ad random - Revolut. Great idea. Goodish service. However the lack of a grown up website, and the usual determination to channel Pablo Escobar when it comes to contacting them means you are condemned* to using a teeny weeny phone to enter long screeds of prose about how their system has (again) messed up.

Wasn't HTML5 supposed to allow multipurpose websites and less need for "apps" ?

So I totally get the authors life.

It is possible to SSH into Android FWIW.

*Yes. Condemned. I'd offer a day of having to do it in lieu of a week in jail.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The march of the "app"

Completely loathe the app only approach certain places take, especially banking.

Might be fine for some trying to thumb through your transactions on a screen. Perhaps I'm just an ageing millenial, however, I prefer to do serious stuff (or anything that needs proper attention, like for example financial transactions, or signing of contracts) to be sat at the computer, big screen, keyboard and mouse rather than on the piddly screen of a phone.

[doublelayer]

Re: The march of the "app"

"It is possible to SSH into Android FWIW."

Not by default it's not, although you can easily use ADB over a network to get a shell. But you could add an SSH server and get into the shell that way too. The main problem is that, once you've done that, there's not a lot you can do from that shell. Access your app files? Sorry, you're the shell user. You don't have permission. You can see your files if you get root on your device, which depending on your device is probably actively resisted. And once you do go to the effort to get root and it doesn't break anything, you are still in an environment that wasn't designed for you to be there. You can see and modify everything, but you can't make it work in the way most Linux systems would because all the apps are expecting to work in an Android-like environment and they stick to those restrictions.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re:It is possible to SSH into Android FWIW.

https://www.theregister.com/2025/03/13/android_16_linux_term/

[doublelayer]

Re: Re:It is possible to SSH into Android FWIW.

And, if that ever makes it into Android that we can use on our devices, the situation might change. Right now, that's a prerelease feature which may never get released and it doesn't matter if it does because it's the same as you can get by using one of a few apps that let you run a virtual machine, which appears to be all this is as well. As this article says, there's one of those for iOS too.

In both cases, you don't have access to the environment of the underlying operating system. If something runs in the VM, great*, if it doesn't, you're out of luck. That means if you want to use GPU acceleration and it doesn't pass that through, then it's not happening unless you build something native that's designed for the OS. More importantly for my uses, if you create something in one app and you want to use it in your VM, then pass it back to the app, you get to play the lottery of seeing whether that app saves the file to a place where that's convenient or whether you have to export it somehow, import it into your VM, get it out of the VM and re-imported in the app, and delete the old file from the app so you only have one copy again.

* There is still the problem that the interface was mostly not designed for this use. I've run VMs on Android, and they work, but you quickly learn how not designed for this Android is. If that's all you have, it will probably work, but when you have a better tool, you end up wondering why you're playing with this when you could get something done with the things you have next to you.

[FIA]

I've missed something??

Laptop breaks.... person buys tablet to replace laptop, despite knowing that the tablet probably isn't fit for purpose and the SAME COMPANY produces laptops that are... finds tablet isn't fit for purpose?

What have I missed?

[Doctor Syntax]

That he already had the tablet for its own use case.

Actually, as a premise for an article on the differences between the two it was fine.

[FIA]

Fair.

So now it's 'Thing that was used breaks, other thing owned that wasn't designed as a replacement not a replacement... thing needs replacing...' ;)

Yeah, to be fair I think it was the clickbaity headline that annoyed.. I should be used to it round here.... "Apple has locked me in a monopolistic cage.." seemed more a tale of Apple makes equipment that lasts and I like and that annoys me.

[wub]

"clickbaity headline"

And yet here you are, deep in the comments, adding useful insight into the conversation.

I, for one, thank you for taking the bait.

[PCScreenOnly]

Security & updates

For many devices, the vendors should be forced, by law to make security updates for a long period of time.

For a phone at least 5 years, preferably 10 or more. Many older phones (especially it if was high end at the time of purchase) are still good and functional today, and sometimes better spec'd that todays cheapo's, but no support.

Apps may work, but if you try to 3rd party OS them, some apps recognise and instantly fail. Why, the OS is now more secure and I only did this as <vendor> does not update the OS for this model any more.

With things like W11. I can understand to a degree, so no 32bit chips - fair enough, or going from PPC to Intel, then Intel to arm - fair enough, but on the whim of a company to block perfectly good devices - should not be allowed or they are forced to provide a good compensation scheme - and not just £50 for a 6th gen intel based device)

Can you imagine the hoohar with TV's ? OK, we lost analog, but a lot of more modern TV's were digital for years - so stop scanning Analog. TV's for years have had HDMI, so an external box to give freeview or a smart stick to get others. can even get HDMI to Scart to get the older generation TV's going. If your TV does not have SCART you really are on a hiding to nothing, but lets be honest, that TV would have had a damn good innings so I think at this stage if is fair to say you may need a new TV

[Androgynous Cupboard]

Re: Security & updates

Not quite the same slant, but I only realised this week that in order to make ApplePay payments on your Apple device, it must have automatic security updates enabled (which I have on my phone, but not on my Macbook). This is the flip-side of your argument - it's not just vendors supplying updates, it's users installing them, and I think Apple are to be commended for pushing this. Although to be fair, they'll be updating and rebooting my laptop over my dead body.

[FIA]

Re: Security & updates

To be fair to Apple, I do have automatic updates on, and I also use my mac infrequently (but leave it turned on as it's running stuff), it doesn't often auto re-boot without my say so as it requires my password to update.

This is not the same with my Windows boxes that will sometimes just randomly re-start for updates.

It does mean first thing I tend to do with the mac when I do use it is an update though.

[Yankee Doodle Doofus]

Re: Security & updates

< "I do have automatic updates on..." "...it requires my password to update."

This doesn't sound very automatic.

[doublelayer]

Re: Security & updates

It just means that it automatically downloads them and asks for you to update or schedule it. They probably decided that they didn't need the reaction that people had when Windows 10 did real automatic updates which wasn't well-received and still isn't in these forums. I don't like truly automatic updates because they can easily interrupt things, but I've also had to clean up after people who never installed any updates, so I'm secretly content for machines that aren't mine. Don't tell those who get free support from me; I said it's a secret.

[Yankee Doodle Doofus]

Re: Security & updates

I knew what they meant, but I'm getting (even more) pedantic as I get older. Get off my lawn.

I'm with you on supporting the machines of others. I will usually turn on (truly) automatic security updates for a non-technical user, but on my own machines? I *might* decide to allow automatic checking for updates, but they will not be downloaded or installed except on my schedule (generally once every 3 to 5 weeks on my servers and lesser used devices, and once per week on daily-driven kit).

[ZX8301]

Re: Security & updates

YMWV. There’s no requirement to have automatic updates selected in order to use Revolut or Apple Pay on my iPhone 7s, up to date with iOS 15.8.3

[JulieM]

Re: Security & updates

I'd make the minimum time period for which vendors have to supply updates "forever, or until annotated Source Code and build instructions are generally available".

[doublelayer]

Re: Security & updates

That's going to kill open source developers who try to make any money out of their product, because the only people who have any chance of providing forever support are those who charge massive amounts for it. Or, more importantly, it will turn all the proprietary software makers into companies that use a subscription model because you'll always get the latest version, you'll always pay for the latest version, and if you stop paying, they no longer have to worry about what updates you get because you don't get to use the software at all. Was that what you had in mind? If not, maybe consider whether your absolutist stance is going to get you what you want.

[Yankee Doodle Doofus]

Re: Security & updates

I want to upvote you more on this, but once is all I can do...

[JulieM]

Re: Security & updates

It's not going to hurt Open Source developers, because by definition they are making the Source Code available and so the "forever support" requirement never kicks in. And if someone buys a licence to distribute modified code from an Open Source project in a non-free fashion, the onus to release their Source Code when they decide to stop offering support will fall onto them, not the original author (who has already released the original on which it was based).

I also have no problem whatsoever with all proprietary software being on an "ongoing subscription or not at all" basis. I just don't think it's very likely to happen. Pirate copies of proprietary software are a menace to wider adoption of Open Source software, but they are also an important mechanism for promoting proprietary software to businesses (who never had the opportunity of piracy) by ensuring new recruits have learned how to use proprietary products instead of Open Source ones in their own time, so that's what they will ask for when they are doing it for a living. If dominant vendors made it impossible for individuals to learn how to use their products for no cost, they would soon lose their dominant status as individuals taught themselves to use less expensive or Open Source products instead.

[doublelayer]

Re: Security & updates

Your utopian idea of how you could make open source more successful if you could custom-make laws for it has two major problems. One is obvious, that you can't actually design them so aggressively and nobody outside the world of open source, and not everybody inside it, would support you. Your other one, though, is also a problem and it's what your comment talks about.

Your vision where everything is a subscription, so users don't learn it, so they don't want to use it, so everyone uses an open source alternative, is not what happens. For example, a lot of Adobe software is on a subscription. Not all of it, and I think some of them has a pay once and get support for several years until they make you upgrade option, but quite a lot of it is primarily subscription based. Has this meant that open source alternatives are surging in use among the young? No. In fact, it's the opposite. When they sell these things as a subscription, people who want to get a job using this can afford to buy it and can justify doing so. Just in case, Adobe has special lower subscription prices for students, just to make sure that more people are learning to use their software and will use it at a place where they have to buy the more expensive corporate subscription. It's not limited to those people willing to find a pirated copy. Meanwhile, any company who wanted could just say they'll use the open source version and any student who wanted could learn to use it, both for free. Their choice not to means the problem is more complicated than "expensive software you can't pirate means free alternative is used". Maybe they have tried it and the software isn't as good, in which case our problem is in our feature set. Maybe they haven't tried it and it would work great in which case our problem is marketing. Maybe they are worried about it because they want ongoing work on it and they think the proprietary version will have that, in which case we have a great opportunity because we've found someone who is willing to pay us to work on this, but we have to actually find a way to do that and not run into any of the other problems that can create. Maybe it's all three of those things, in which case it's all of the problems and opportunities together.

On the other point, you could write your law so specifically that open source, presumably the ones using licenses you approve of, is exempted and nobody else is. It would be a bad law in my opinion, but I suppose it's always possible. Most alternative laws would cause more problems for those writing open source than they do for proprietary vendors, since those projects operate with much smaller and more voluntary resources, both financial and labor. Therefore, I retract my complaint about what it would do to open source authors since we're working in idealist rules and we're excluding those effects by definition. I caution you that trying to implement this is likely to have different effects if you ever get the ability to draft it.

[tiggity]

Re: Security & updates

Partner used to use several Adobe products*.

Since they switched to subscription she has gradually eliminate Adobe products, the year on year expense was just excessive - she now uses a mix of open source and commercial software that can be purchased outright.

* It was viable when she was working as costs easily covered, but now he is retired then just teh occasional bit of freelance work so the costs unacceptable - a lot of other light users of Adobe software in the same boat these days**.

** Partner is friends with a few people who teach illustration courses online, worth noting they recommend various software options to the students but notable that Adobe is NOT amongst the recommendations, whereas years back it was the nailed on go to option.

[MJI]

Re: Security & updates

I have only owned 4 TVs and I am in my 60s.

My current one, does not have Freeview HD, just SD, but does have lots of HDMI and SCART. Also pre smart TV but top end.

Previous was 2K DTTV

The one before had SCART

Before a portable.

Shortest life a decade, three of them I wore the tube out.

My 15 Y/O TV works fine.

[J.G.Harston]

Re: Security & updates

I have a little black&white TV from when I was at university in the 1980s. It lives in my basement, and was fed by coax from the RF out on my cable box. Yes, I had to point the remote up the stairs at an angle to change channels, but it worked. Until last year when the cable box was upgraded to one without an RF out. :(

[0laf]

Most people aren't IT pros or even very interested in IT.

At some point they have made a choice to purchase a device and learn to use it minimally.

That was probably an Apple Vs MS choice once and a bit later an Android Vs Apple choice for phones.

Most people don't care that much they just want an easy life so they will stick with whatever they chose.

MS is really enterprise now. Of the people I know a lot of them no longer have a home PC they have phones and tablets.

A laptop is something provided by work. A desktop is something at work.

So you're not locked in you are just unwilling to devote the energy and time to switch. That's not an irrational position where the device is just that, a device.

[teomor]

Same here. I tried using an iPad instead of my computer and quickly realized until we have virtualization, a terminal, the ability to run arbitrary code the iPad is never going to be a computer.

[Tron]

Re: If you want a general purpose computer ...

You need to buy one second hand on ebay. Modern stuff is a toxic mix of privacy theft, subscriptions, cloud storage and AI BS.

I use a PC. Nothing mobile is ever going to replace it.

I guess you could ask a Microsoft AI to reverse engineer Windows 7 as FOSS. As it is a Microsoft AI, MS couldn't complain. After all, their AI doesn't intrude on the copyright of others, does it?

[Howard Sway]

Apple has locked me in the same monopolistic cage Microsoft's built

Well no - if you keep buying products from companies whose entire business model is based on designing obsolescence into them to ensure regular influxes of customer money then you are walking voluntarily into that cage. Both have made such immense amounts of money from selling products with a much shorter usable lifespan than other physical things, that they should be made to either keep supporting them for many years, or open source them when they go out of support so others can do so.

[Anonymous Coward]

shoot me now

But iPads are really good tablets, MacBooks are fairly ok laptops, when you blur the lines between them you end up with devices that don't do either thing well.

Same applies for Wintel and Android laptops and tablets.

[Anonymous Coward]

> Apple has locked me in the same monopolistic cage Microsoft's built for Windows 10 users

Obviously not referring to the author in this case, but most technical users that find themself in this situation don't deserve too much sympathy.

Uhhh, its kind of your own fault. Do better next time :)

(Also, perhaps let you collegues make the tech decisions at work from now on eh?)

[Rich Harding]

PEBKAC

"Will we still have just three operating systems to choose from - of which only two are really suitable for a worker's desktop?"

What an utterly ludicrous thing to read on a tech website.

[Androgynous Cupboard]

Re: PEBKAC

Yes, I quite agree - Windows is a poor choice but unsuitable is a bit strong.

[Luiz Abdala]

I was hoping for...

..a hackintosh with dual-boot shennanigans afoot when I read the title of the article. Just like when Windows borks completely any Linux dual boot MBR (or UEFI booting order, or whatever kids call it these days) if ANY upgrade even remotely tries to happen for the Windows partition as it crunches the boot for any other operating system. Someone doing old school dual boot, not a VM or anything.

I felt a bit disappointed to be honest, and surprised, that even a full Apple environment left you with a sour taste.

Eh, such is life.

[Marty McFly]

"It's infuriating, largely because it all feels so self-serving."

Just now figuring that out? It feels that way because it IS that way.

A failure to innovate results in an evolutionary product line, rather than a revolutionary product line. Therefore the only way to entice the 'upgrade' becomes a push mechanism rather than a pull mechanism. Users, admins, companies, have no compelling reason to roll out the latest stuff. Therefore they must be pushed in to it by deprecating hardware and compatibility.

Ultimately it comes down to a painful choice for companies: Risk no support & no security patches, versus spending money for unwanted 'upgrades'. No one will get fired if they are successfully attacked when running the latest software releases. But an attack after a decision to stay with old infrastructure will lead them straight to the firing line. Thus the 'upgrades' are willingly paid for.

That is big tech's ultimate marketing strategy.

[MSArm]

Ridiculous reg post

This is like buying a car then bleating you can't fit 6 wheels on it, and it's not fair, or the car isn't fit for purpose...

Come on TheReg, you can do better then churn out this drivel.

[Henry Wertz 1]

2 seperate issues

I do feel like these are 2 seperate issues.

Trying to use a tablet as a PC -- I mean, if you're running Android you can install a distro, hook up even a phone to a monitor via USB-C, use a keyboard and mouse with it. But really, a tablet is just not a PC, juggling a keyboard with trackpad and screen lilke this is not too convenient. I mean, you're right, macOS. iPhoneOS and ipadOS are nearly the same OS but the UIs are so different that the ipad ui and app isolation does make it unsuitable as a pc replacement.

Microsoft's thing (which Apple ALSO does) is artificially and rapidly drop support for older hardware. (For Windows you can force install anyway. for macOS. OCLP (OpenCore Legacy Patcher) lets you install macOS onto fairly old systems with no issues anfd even older ones with some limitations.

Solution (for the surface... this doesn't help the ipad really.) Get Windows the hell off that Surface Go and put a Linux distro on it. I put it on a Surface with 7th gen Intel CPU and it runs GREAT. After I cut the resolution down (4K resoltuion with an Intel integrated GPU? Really?) I can even run Deep Rock Galactic with nice FPS and whatever other games on it. (My sister had retired this yerars ago, the Windows install biit rotted so badly the screen was stuck upside down, it tried to installl some updates on every go so startup and shutdown were VERY slow and it ran like crap.).

Everything in Linux worked out of the box excvept the touch and the web cam (it's not USB, it uses some 7th gen Intel CPU specific camera controller that apparently was ONLY used by the Surface.) I first turned on resolution scaling (stuff was WAY too small), then cut screen res down instead. I installed a package for Surface support and those non working items worked,. Done and done for hardware set up, I configurerd my desktop and apps to my liking and away I went.

[Flicker]

So why does Apple get less stick than Microsoft for their planned obsolescence blackmail?

For context, I'm typing this on a lightly pimped 2012 Thinkpad X220, quite happily running Win 10 while listening to Radio 3 through my (re-cap'd) c.1962 Leak Stereo 20 valve amp. I'm obviously a fan of keeping Old Stuff Going. Although pretty pissed by Microsoft deciding to lock my quite excellent Thinkpad out of their future plans I can sort of see that the sheer number of hardware combinations from a sea of different vendors gives them quite a maintenance problem - and everything I read about Win 11 and CoPilot makes me happy to have nothing whatsoever to do with it and move it over to Linux Mint.

However... I've also just been given an astoundingly fast and beautiful 2015 27" 5K i7 iMac by a neighbour who's been spooked by Apple's decision to terminate any and all updates for it. They succumbed to the blackmail and have paid crazy amounts of money for Apple's latest and greatest system + display. Unlike Microsoft, Apple have full, 100% control over every aspect of this thing and it seems obscene that a really nicely designed, <10 year old high-spec piece of kit be fit, in Apple's greedy eyes, for nothing except eWaste (or should that be iWaste?).

Haven't yet decided whether to OCLP it, move it to Linux, leave it stock on Mountain Lion with current and updating Firefox or take it apart to add an AliExpress driver board as a 5K display - but where I can see some justification for Microsoft cutting my Thinkpad from their plans I can see none whatsoever for Apple's greedy attitude to something over which they have full control.

[OscarG]

Re: So why does Apple get less stick than Microsoft for their planned obsolescence blackmail?

"Unlike Microsoft, Apple have full, 100% control over every aspect of this thing"

What are you talking about? Microsoft is far worse now, turning Windows into an absolute shitshow that is not only defective in both design and execution, but badgers and stymies the user endlessly by demanding that you log in, LOG IN, LOGGGG INNNN with an idiotic "Microsoft account" that nobody wants or needs.

Microsoft also orphaned millions of computers with capricious hardware requirements, far more egregiously than Apple. My late-2014 iMac was supported for quite a long time.

BTW, I tried OCLP on that machine and it sucked. Even if you can get past the project-runners' shitty attitude, there's the issue of trusting your information to a heavily-patched system. And if you get past that, you still have a basically unusable computer. Even Safari wouldn't work reliably. The system was plagued by never-ending errors and functional failures that made it a total waste of time. That computer is now running Mint.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: So why does Apple get less stick than Microsoft for their planned obsolescence blackmail?

Difference is that by bypassing the Windows 11 restrictions, its likely your system works fine. If you try OCLP, then it can potentially be unstable depending on how old your Mac is and how much effort your willing to put in to fix the issues.

[doublelayer]

Re: So why does Apple get less stick than Microsoft for their planned obsolescence blackmail?

"Microsoft also orphaned millions of computers with capricious hardware requirements, far more egregiously than Apple."

Is that so? Let's check the details. Your iMac from 2014, what would its support lifetime have been?

Mac OS, please step forward. When did you drop support for the venerable iMac from 2014? Well, there were two of them released that year, but the answer for both of them is as of the release of Mac OS 12. To put a date on that, October of 2021, for 7-7.3 years depending on model.

Windows, your turn. When did you drop support for the iMac from 2014? That's correct, the answer is... not yet. True, it's coming up, and it's helpfully also in October, making it a convenient exactly four years later regardless of model.

Now how is Microsoft more egregious than Apple here? Neither is great, but Apple cut it off quite a bit faster, and their lifetime of seven years is shorter than the minimum amount of time a computer that shipped with Windows 10 could receive non-extended Windows 10 support (8-9 years). Remember that whatever complaints you have about OCLP stem from the fact that some hackers are having to do what Apple could quite easily have done for those who spent at least $2,500 (US price is what's listed) on their hardware. I have used OCLP to extend the OS lifetime on one of my machines, and I've had a much nicer experience that you have, with Safari and all the rest of the applications working happily, though I have not yet attempted to update from Mac OS 14 to 15. If Apple wasn't blazing the trail that Microsoft chose to take, neither of us would have to do that.

[Fido]

Re: So why does Apple get less stick than Microsoft for their planned obsolescence blackmail?

My impression is people who buy Apple trend not to be as concerned about money compared to those who buy a Windows PC. Since saving money is not an objective, the Apple customer is not unhappy when older kit is obsoleted because that provides a reason to get the latest greatest.

Here the university has been purchasing new iPads, iPencils and portfolio keyboards for every incoming student since the epidemic. I tried to figure out how students could use this technology for programming tasks related to numerical computing and computer science. The Apple point of contact recommended Swift playgrounds.

Swift playgrounds features a 3D rendered version of Karol the Robot for toddlers but is actually much more: One can also write, compile and run real programs. Unfortunately the stack size is small, no optimiser is available and I could not find any scientific libraries.

Today it appears the main purpose of the iPad is to create a cyberpunk version of a medieval university where the students use iPencils to transcribe the text being lectured on as it is written in chalk on a blackboard. Traditions die hard.

On a modern note, the iPads do satisfy the digital equity objective of providing underprivileged students the same ability to TicToc, Facebook and Instagram instead of studying.

[anonymous boring coward]

Re: So why does Apple get less stick than Microsoft for their planned obsolescence blackmail?

Why can't you use it with Mountain Lion? Just install a modern browser.

[X5-332960073452]

Re: So why does Apple get less stick than Microsoft for their planned obsolescence blackmail?

2015 27" 5K i7 - "Haven't yet decided whether to OCLP it, move it to Linux, leave it stock on Mountain Lion"

As far as I can discern, it is fully compatible with macOS Ventura (macOS 13) (so only the latest OS, Sonoma (14) is not supported)

[Flicker]

Re: So why does Apple get less stick than Microsoft for their planned obsolescence blackmail?

Nope.. stuck on Mountain Lion, which works OK and Firefox & LibreOffice at least are still getting updates. But misses the cut for quite a few App Store packages (eg Termius, pretty much any Microsoft app) as well as any Apple OS / app updates. As in my earlier post this thing is less than 10 years old and must have cost at least £2K when new. My 2012 Lenovo Thinkpad will get Win 10 updates until this October, so I still maintain that Apple is actually worse than Microsoft - and with less justification - in it's planned obsolescence chokehold.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: So why does Apple get less stick than Microsoft for their planned obsolescence blackmail?

That's odd. I am writing this on a 2012 MacBook Pro that came with Mountain Lion and is now running High Sierra. Admittedly it only has one more upgrade available to it (I think) before it will then be stranded, but I don't get why you think your 2015 Apple PC cannot have its OS upgraded beyond Mountain Lion. Am I missing something here?

[Flicker]

Re: So why does Apple get less stick than Microsoft for their planned obsolescence blackmail?

Sorry, yes, my bad!! Only possible excuse is that I'm new to all this Apple stuff.. It's actually running (and stuck on) Monterey, not Mountain Lion. I guess they both start with "M...". But core argument remains the same, that Apple have left a perfectly decent bit of <10 year old hardware unsupported. I'm also pondering the wider implications of this type of policy, particularly in more dangerous areas.

Take the case of modern cars, which with all of their self-driving, "safety" related lane-assist etc. tech are increasingly large, heavy, lethal computers-on-wheels. Even if stuff like the Tesla-crashing scene in "Leave the World Behind" is unrealistic, what will happen when car manufacturers start declaing arbitary "end of support" dates for their ECU firmware and a major, disabling or lethal security vulnerability is subsequently exploited, say through WiFi or Bluetooth access to the CAN Bus? Does it become immediately illegal to drive that model? Should it be illegal to use a vehicle with unsupported firmware, say if the vendor has gone bankrupt? All a bit of a wild tangent, but....

[Missing Semicolon]

Shiny hardware that does what you want

<fanboy>If you want a nice 13-inch device, that does not lock down what you run on it, you need a Framework 13. If you are a shell-using, Python-wrangling power user, you run a Linux Distro on it. Nice 3:2 screen, as much storage as you want, pick-your-processor, loads of I/O. When they launch an AI-capable motherboard, you just upgrade!

And of course upgradable, replaceable battery, yada, yada. And less than a MacBook.

</fanboy>

[CorwinX]

They keep trying to "improve" things

There's a point where you hit the law of diminishing returns.

More and more effort for very little gain.

Why do I need a few more pixels on my screen & camera? Both are absolutely fine as they are.

How does that improve my life?

Shiny case? Mine has an armoured case wrapped around it - hardly remember what the factory case looks like.

No interest in "flashy" as long as it does the job (though the case has been remarked on favourably).

I treat my phone as a computer that happens to be able to make phone calls.

What is it with people who buy into the BS that these companies pump out?

Probably going to get downvotes for that, but hey?

[macsimski]

Oh man, triggering my pet peve. I have been using Apple Newton messagepads from the 130 up till the 2100 and i really digged that paradigm. Although it was very obsolete, the concept of the operating system and the way you worked with information was very good. Not even to mention the little funny things like the pitch changing blips every time you pressomething with the stylus and the animation of a paper crumbling up and landing in the dust bin.

It surely had its drawbacks, like transfer with a desktop was via a dedicated application on mac or windows and it had problems with formats like pdf. But it did not feel like a jail like IOS always felt.restrictions were mostly technical (no built in wifi) and not a restriction imposed by policy.

Oh. Im getting old. Thats all.

[OscarG]

absurd and not credible

This is ridiculous. This guy knew damn well that a tablet, especially an Apple one, was not going to replace a proper computer... especially given his use cases.

[Excused Boots]

Re: absurd and not credible

Yes, but complaining about it made an article on El Reg which also provoked a lot of comments - presumably lots of ads were seen - which is the important thing.

[Missing Semicolon]

Re: absurd and not credible

The idea is that modern iPads share a lot of hardware with Macbooks. They are just as powerful. It's just market segmentation that means you can't run the desktop OS on the tablet.

[Kevin McMurtrie]

It doesn't have to be a Mac

I switched my home desktop and server to Linux over a decade ago. MacOS felt like it was getting harder and harder to use for serious work. The $$$$$ Apple was asking for their aging trash-can Mac Pro was hard to swallow too. I went with Linux on a custom BTO machine. I needed a VM to run old Mac apps for a while, but not forever. I've been occasionally upgrading those machines every since and am very happy with the switch.

At my last job, several of us were having trouble doing software development on new MacBook Pros. Apple's increasing restrictions drove a lot of work into VMs. Corporate budgets would never buy a Mac with enough RAM. We got permission to switch to Linux. It worked. The corporate tools were still usable and the $1200 laptop hardware worked very well. A lower quality screen was the only thing to complain about. And goodbye to the cursed USB-C hubs that you practically need to tape to the back of a MacBook!

[Anonymous Coward]

“ Any computer that can't offer me a terminal window, root access, and the ability to type "python" to get into a REPL shell feels fake - an incomplete simulation of a real computer.”

MacOS classic never had a command line, yet its UI is loved by many of those who experienced it still to this day. Had some fortune of using it briefly in early school in the late 90s, it is something I miss. Almost to the point where I'm considering setting up MacOS 9 on an emulator.

[Ropewash]

"Time to find an angle grinder"

Correct. A welding job offers the comfort of never having to work with a computer at all.

Lots of angle grinders though. Especially when you're an apprentice.

[anonymous boring coward]

Ok. So why did you think an iPad would be like a real laptop? Get a Macbook.

[9Rune5]

Sustainability

I found it amusing that at least the xbox division, last year, promoted 'sustainability'.

Their latest product features a SSD (great!) where the first block contains a serial number that is unique to your xbox (not so great). In fact, that serial number is not really serial at all. It is a random number that gets randomized again every time your xbox receives a firmware update.

So when (not if) your xbox' SSD dies, unless you happened to back it up after the last firmware update, you cannot replace it unless you manage to read that first block of data.

And then there is, as the author mentioned, the whole Win10 debacle. I have a laptop with a 4k UHD touch capable monitor, 32GB memory and a half-decent SSD. But, its CPU is one generation too old, so now, according to MS, it is garbage.

Sustainability must mean something else in the world of marketing.

[Vall]

"Time to find an angle grinder."

Welcome to FOSS in general, and Linux and GNU specially.

As everything else, it has its problems, but trying to put the user in a cage is not one of them.

[nojobhopes]

Phones have to work everytime and all the time. When you are calling a cab you don’t want some spyware overwriting core system binaries or interfering with other applications, like they do on windows.

iOS was designed to limit the damage that can be done to apps and to the OS itself. We have had cross application protection in memory since the first multi-user mainframe - that's why a page fault error exists. iOS (and android) extend that protection to the filesystem.

Apps are locked down. They are contained.

You make a choice - Restrictions and stability, or fewer restrictions and more risk.

If you are buying a machine for your low tech internet browsing uncle which YOU have to support over the PHONE, you may want to pick a more locked down system than the one you pick for yourself.

iPad OS is an interesting experiment along the journey of computer history. How far can you take an os with app separation and use it for general purpose tasks. It is an interesting experiment and it challenges older OSes to be better.

PS. Your article succeeded in rage farming over 150 responses. Well done.