National Science Foundation staff axed by Trump fear for US scientific future

With the National Science Foundation cutting staff to comply with President Trump's order for sweeping federal government layoffs, concerns are growing over the impact of these layoffs on America's role in scientific and technological research.  And it's not just outside observers raising the alarm; both former and remaining …

[Michael Hoffmann]

Reminder: Germany was a, if not THE, world leader in many sciences like physics before 1933. Just look at a list of Nobel laureates up to then.

The country never recovered its preeminence after 1945. Those who fled never returned. The brain drain was terminal and shifted to the USA.

Look at how many papers from leading US unis are already written with PIs from Asian countries. If they all go elsewhere, it's over.

And at what point will you no longer even have the know-how to maintain that edge in weaponry? Before you have nothing but redneck mouth-breathers looking at a diagram of a nuke and sagely comment "hurp durp witchcraft!"

[Winkypop]

Re: "hurp durp witchcraft!"

Simple.

Just turn them all up to 11.

[normal1]

Ah, can fix that thar demon core with a flat head screwdriver.........

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, Einstein was one of them (left Germany for the United States in 1933).

[harmjschoonhoven]

Albert Einstein gave up his German citizenship in 1901 to become a Swiss national. His main motive was to avoid conscription in the German military.

[imanidiot]

I think the brain drain is already in progress and already terminal. The US is screwed and it'll all be the fault of the MAGA crowd that is too stupid to even comprehend why it's their fault or what they did.

[Anonymous Coward]

The brain drain started many decades ago. The US outsourced so much of its science, high tech and industrial manufacturing back in the 90s.

Just look at semiconductors. The chemicals needed mostly come from Japan, the wafers mostly come from Japan and South Korea, the photo lithography machines come from Europe and Japan, the wafer etching machines come from Europe or the far east. The US has tried many times to bring these techs back to their shores and has failed every time.

Where is serious particle physics being done? Not the USA. Fusion research? not the USA. nuclear reactor design? not the USA.

All the US has at the moment is the tech-bros in silly-con valley and a lot of oil and gas.

[Wang Cores]

Call it millenial/Gen Z entitlement but the brain drain is more a societal "water seeks own its level" and Trump is just accelerating it. You pull the same pay to work on electronics/hardware you would being a mall cop where rent is dead cheap and you can walk to work, and you're treated with less respect by your supervisors in "thinkin' work."

It's a reason why I'm going back to school for software.

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder how much effect it has that employers in the US, on top of higher salaries, are expected to pay for exorbitant health insurance too. The cost of the stupidest healthcare system in the world gets added on to the price of stuff made there.

[DS999]

Bad for the US I suppose

But it won't be bad for the world, as there isn't one single country that would inherit a huge chunk of expertise the way the US did after WW II. Spreading it around the globe would be the ultimate "DEI", and the ultimate revenge on Trump even though he is unlikely to live long enough to see it.

For all the complaining the right wing anti-science crowd has done over the years talking about a "new world order" and "globalization", their orange clown may be the one who actually ushers in that world by permanently removing US dominance in leading edge science, breaking all our traditional alliances and making us a pariah on the world stage except in countries run by dictators.

As a citizen of the US I guess I'm supposed to care if we lose that "American exceptionalism" but I really don't. Idiots voted for this, and if they get it they deserve it. I retired early pre-covid - I'm still in my 50s and am fortunate to have the financial ability to live wherever I want, or at least wherever will welcome American expats. So if the US goes into the shitter thanks to an incompetent businessman and his nazi sidekick I'll just go someone else and watch the carnage on TV from a safe distance. I'll feel bad for my friends who saw what was happening, tried to vote against it, but are living with the consequences, but I'll never shed a single tear for anyone dumb enough to vote for Trump in 2024 when they knew exactly what they would be getting.

I've tried to talk to fellow republicans for a quarter century about the party going in the wrong direction with the religious right, then tolerating Pat Buchanan (who just needed a little orange makeup to have been the guy I guess) then throwing McCain under the bus in 2000 because he wasn't religious enough for republican primary voters. It kept lurching more and more extreme to where I feel I have more in common with Bernie Sanders than I do any republican politician today. Which is crazy to say out loud.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Bad for the US I suppose

"I'm supposed to care if we lose that "American exceptionalism" but I really don't"

"I retired early pre-covid - I'm still in my 50s and am fortunate to have the financial ability to live wherever I want"

Doesn't cross your mind for a moment that the 'American exceptionalism' is what has allowed you to retire some 10 years early compared to most other people and continue to live how you like? The over inflated USD and its status as world reserve currency, the massive earnings and wealth gap between those with a good education and those without.... No?

Bernie would have you working into your 80s. Remember bread lines are a good thing.

[GraXXoR]

Re: Bad for the US I suppose

Wow... talk about uninformed.. Bernie has literally (and in a non Gen-Z sense) been pushing for workers rights for decades.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Bad for the US I suppose

Oh Purr-lease, Bernie is hugely pro union and has only pushed for 'workers rights' as part of union expansion. And there is very little about unions in the last 30-40 years that is pro actual workers rights. Union leaders only care about lining their own pockets.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Bad for the US I suppose

Ahhh yes, Bernie, the guy campaigning for workers rights, unions, proper wages, decent pensions..... would have got you working into your 80s!! </sarc>

I swear there is a very specific brain rot with you MAGAs - everyone you see "your side" do/say/propose something you know is wrong, the only way you can deal with it is to persuade yourself that it's actually the other side doing it

You're psychological projection is much deeper ingrained in your psyche then I originally imagined.

P.S. I'm in the UK, retired early in my early 50's too.

You'll find many of the readers of this site are in a similar position, or could be if they wanted to.

It's got sod all to do with the late stage capitalism you fawn over, and would have been just as easy, if not easier, under a social democrat government with Bernie in charge.

[Omnipresent]

Re: Bad for the US I suppose

The bernie bros are a large reason why we are in the position we are in. They took that personally, and never seemed to grasp their heads around the fact that Hillary was about the most qualified candidate in history, and the russians were happy to amplify that. They have played themselves from day one and blamed everyone else for their world destroying f up. You should try working with them. Their view is... "nobody ever gave me nothing, so I'm taking the world down with me." They do not care about ANYTHING. They just want to watch the world burn.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Bad for the US I suppose

FIFY!

"Hillary was about the most entitled candidate in history"

Its funny how the party that screeches loudest about 'Our democracy' (which really just means 'our grip on power') selects their candidates based on how friendly they are with the leader of the DNC. The Bernie bros had a legitimate grievance with the DNC. I will admit that a Trump vs Bernie race would have been interesting. Instead the inner party decided that its members don't matter and selected Hillary 'its my turn' Clinton who then only campaigned in areas where they kissed her feet and then acts all offended when all the people she ignored and insulted vote for the candidate that actually got out there and campaigned.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Bad for the US I suppose

"retired early in my early 50's too."

So you're sat on a nice pension that capitalism created and want to convince the younger generations about how a multimillionaire in his 80s who has never had a proper job and has been funded by the hard work of other people as he hobnob'd around with the leaders of some of the most repressive regimes in history knows what is best for them?

The only reason people retire early in socialist countries is to die early. (or if they are members of the ruling elite) And no, the nordics are NOT socialist.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Bad for the US I suppose

Ahhh, you bitter little sad man, who knows nothing about Bernie or his history.

Your post reeks of failure bitterness. So, what's the excuse you're using today? Immigrants, trans people in sport? The woke agenda?

Ironically, there is actually some group you can blame - the republicans and trump who are continually stealing your tax dollars.

Incidentally, the republicans are about to do another tax cut, and last week voted AGAINST restricting that break to those that earn less than $500 million a year

Yes, republicans feel that thirst on £0.5 billion a year need a tax break. But keep blaming the socialists, boomer

Don't forget, one of trump's first moves was to ban the ability of anyone to negotiate drug prices. Your insulin prices have gone up as a result, but still, blame the homeless, or the sick.

Have a look at this: https://www.americanprogress.org/article/4-ways-house-republicans-emerging-tax-package-would-put-billionaires-over-families/

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Bad for the US I suppose

"Your post reeks of failure bitterness."

Bahahahahahahahaha!!!! Oh wait, you're serious! The most bitter people out there are the Bernie Bros. Actually the whole Democrat party is the same. You lost 2024 as a whole load of people refused to vote as Harris either did or didn't support the EXACT right thing in the EXACT right way to appease you perfectly.

Remember when Bernie pivoted from saying 'millionaires and billionaires' to just 'billionaires' after he became a millionaire? The guy is so fake it hurts. You just blindly follow him like he is some kind of modern Jebus or something. Well, he did work as a carpenter for a while. Follow the gourd!

"Incidentally, the republicans are about to do another tax cut,"

Good! You cannot tax a country into growth. Just look at Europe.

"Your insulin prices have gone up as a result"

Didn't Biden scrap the Trump era insulin price reduction?

[Jamie Jones]

Re: Bad for the US I suppose

Wow. Republicans are weird.

>> "Incidentally, the republicans are about to do another tax cut,"

Good! You cannot tax a country into growth. Just look at Europe." <<

You cut out the point of the sentence. AC wrote "incidentally, the republicans are about to do another tax cut, and last week voted AGAINST restricting that break to those that earn less than $500 million a year"

You think that those individuals who earn over $500 million a year deserve a tax cut?

>> "You just blindly follow him like he is some kind of modern Jebus or something." <<

Are you a parody? Have you seen a MAGA gathering? The only idiots that idolise politicians are the weak sheep in your flock.

>> "Didn't Biden scrap the Trump era insulin price reduction?" <<

Did you just pull that out of your arse? Trump made no such reduction. Biden did the insulin pricecap, in the Inflation Reduction act of August 2022.

2 months later, Biden enacted "Executive Order 14087—Lowering Prescription Drug Costs for Americans" https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/DCPD-202200925/pdf/DCPD-202200925.pdf

Trump has rescinded that executive order, so that the drug companies can continue to price gouge the American citizens.

Where AC was wrong was that this doesn't affect the insulin cap, just everything else.

Though, I'm sure when Trump realises the cap on insulin prices still exists, he'll try to rescind that too.

You are lusting after a man who is screwing you, and he hasn't even paid for dinner.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Bad for the US I suppose

"You think that those individuals who earn over $500 million a year deserve a tax cut?"

Why not? They already pay a lot more tax than the rest of us and likely no-one actually 'earns' $500M in actual money a year. Lots of people spout that the rich should 'pay their fair share' but can never answer what constitutes 'rich' or 'fair share'. And usually the people spouting this are already really quite rich (Elizabeth Warren, Bernie, AOC) compared to the average and you know full well they will never vote for anything that will cost them money. This 'politics of envy' 'we must tax the rich' would fund the US govt for maybe a few days until the money runs dry again and all the rich people have sodded off. There is a reason Europe has very few really rich people and mega tech companies turning over billions and billions.... its all about the tax!

And Trump DID try to lower the price of insulin and epi pens in 2020. And Trump has NOT affected the price of insulin in his latest changes.

https://nypost.com/2020/05/26/trump-cuts-cost-of-insulin-for-medicare-enrollees-to-35-a-month/

https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/insulin-cap-medicare-unaffected-by-trump-order-prescription-drug-costs-2025-01-28/

[Jamie Jones]

Re: Bad for the US I suppose

Why not? They already pay a lot more tax than the rest of us and likely no-one actually 'earns' $500M in actual money a year. Lots of people spout that the rich should 'pay their fair share' but can never answer what constitutes 'rich' or 'fair share'. And usually the people spouting this are already really quite rich (Elizabeth Warren, Bernie, AOC) compared to the average and you know full well they will never vote for anything that will cost them money. This 'politics of envy' 'we must tax the rich' would fund the US govt for maybe a few days until the money runs dry again and all the rich people have sodded off. There is a reason Europe has very few really rich people and mega tech companies turning over billions and billions.... its all about the tax!

Um.. No they don't. Check out any report by anyone other than the heritage society (who act for the multi-millionaires)

Here's one. There are many: https://archive.is/20241008122541/https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/10/06/opinion/income-tax-rate-wealthy.html

You grossly underestimate the wealth they have horded. You are also ignoring the greatest wealth disparity ever, and the fact that they lobby for laws that favour them. Mark my words, taxing them isn't charity. They are stealing from the American people that actually created that wealth.

Your European comparison is bogus, too. Do you really think the only reason Facebook and google etc. exist is because the owners pay less tax than you? Do you think Sergey and Zuck wouldn't have done what they did if they had to pay slightly more tax?

Do you think that the slave-like work balance in the USA, coupled with the minimum workers rights has any influence on things?

Still, as an obviously selfish "I'll be a future multi-millionaire" type, you've already swallowed the coolaid. You're simping after the very people that are screwing you.

And Trump DID try to lower the price of insulin and epi pens in 2020.

Only some of them: https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/the-facts-about-the-35-insulin-copay-cap-in-medicare/

And Trump has NOT affected the price of insulin in his latest changes.

https://nypost.com/2020/05/26/trump-cuts-cost-of-insulin-for-medicare-enrollees-to-35-a-month/

https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/insulin-cap-medicare-unaffected-by-trump-order-prescription-drug-costs-2025-01-28/

... which is EXACTLY what I said in the very post you replied to. So, thanks for confirming that MAGAs, like Trump, rarely read beyond the headline. If you've got this far this time, congratulations!

[MachDiamond]

Re: Bad for the US I suppose

"You think that those individuals who earn over $500 million a year deserve a tax cut?"

Perhaps not, but dying on that very small hill isn't worth the effort. How many people are there that have that much income?

[Jamie Jones]

Re: Bad for the US I suppose

Fair point, but if it's just one person, I'd still be saying "why the hell are they getting a tax break?"

[MachDiamond]

Re: Bad for the US I suppose

"Fair point, but if it's just one person, I'd still be saying "why the hell are they getting a tax break?""

Close personal friend, family member or business associate?

[DS999]

Re: Bad for the US I suppose

Didn't Biden scrap the Trump era insulin price reduction?

Trump capped the price at $35 for some medicare recipients, Biden made that mandatory for all Part D medicare plans so that everyone on medicare got that price. Biden quadrupled the number of people eligible for that lower price. Try again.

[EricB123]

Re: Bad for the US I suppose

If I were younger I'd be looking at changing passports.

[DS999]

Re: Bad for the US I suppose

That's definitely on my mind if I end up leaving the country. Just don't want to try to navigate the maze of requirements for making that happen unless I am left with no choice. I think I might hate traveling with a US passport now, given how Trump has lowered our standing in any of the countries I'd ever want to visit. The few places that like us more like Russia or Hungary are not places I'd ever go.

[Anonymous Coward]

Relax already

The Great Orange Shitler likes ‘em stupid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Relax already

... and compliant ... (no climate change, no environmental protection, no alternative energy, no gender neutrality, no critical analysis of fascist ideology, ...).

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: Relax already

No oil, no gas, no power, no internet, no air travel, no weapons, no food

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Relax already

You missed teaching creationism and intelligent (sic) design as valid 'theories'

"NSF's mission is not only to fund science work, but also scientific literacy"

[collinsl]

Re: Relax already

Well that's just part of the authoritarian playbook - Russia is a perfect example of this.

The idea is that you try and introduce doubt into everything and everyone by spreading so many stories and asking so many questions that people don't know what to believe any more. Teaching kids that there are multiple "theories" (religion is not a scientific theory, it's a story) means that the kids will question if science is ever right, rather than using scientific method to deduce if a theory fits the available evidence or not.

[NoneSuch]

Re: Relax already

The Great Pumpkin got 49.8% of the popular vote. The pendulum on US stupidity is swiftly approaching the mid-point.

No one can be surprised when a tax grifter with 34 felony convictions, already impeached twice, starts firing FBI, government auditors and Inspector Generals.

He thinks he's above the law and with the Republicans in the majority, he is.

Expect political arrests of key democrats, liberal reporters and anyone who opposes MAGA for treason before the next round of elections for the US House of Representatives and the Senate. Not joking.

All hail Trumpistan!

#FAFO

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Relax already

"49.8% of the popular vote"

And? The US does not work on a popular vote and there is definitely no requirement to get over 50%.

Sir Beer Starmer got 34%. He actually only got 20% of the total eligible voter base.

[Richard 12]

Re: Relax already

Sir Kier Starmer got 48.9% of the vote, actually.

https://members.parliament.uk/member/4514/electionresult

One major difference is that the US does not have any viable third parties whatsoever. Voting "Jill Stein" is exactly the same as a spoiled ballot.

The other is of course the travesty of the Winner-take-all Electoral College in 48 states, meaning that the President can be elected with a tiny minority of the vote, even with the rest going to the same other party.

Not that it matters anymore, as there's unlikely to be another free election in the US until Vance dies.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Relax already

"Sir Kier Starmer got 48.9% of the vote, actually."

For his constituency seat. Labour, with Sir Beer at its helm got 34%.

[nobody who matters]

Re: Relax already

<........."........as there's unlikely to be another free election in the US until Vance dies."..........>

As soon as that?

You don't think he would appoint a replacement?

[MachDiamond]

Re: Relax already

"The other is of course the travesty of the Winner-take-all Electoral College in 48 states, meaning that the President can be elected with a tiny minority of the vote, even with the rest going to the same other party."

In a strictly popular vote, a candidate can win by the voters in a small handful of large cites, on one coast or the other.

In Hillary vs. Donald, Hillary won the popular vote. In a topographical representation of votes, outside of large cities she lost badly. The Founding Fathers were worried about this sort of thing which is why there is the electoral system. It's not perfect, but there isn't a better system being proposed that gets rid of its shortcomings while also not falling into the trap of the popular vote. Over such a large country, getting the balance right is difficult. In the town where I live, a popular vote for mayor works as the population is far more homogeneous in terms of outlook and the needs of the city. The views of a farmer in Kansas and an apartment dweller working an office job in NYC are not just mile apart, but "miles apart".

[GraXXoR]

Re: Relax already

34% ... ketchup?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is good news

It means we can absorb all the talented people. Best thing we can do is start head hunting!

[Tom Graham]

Re: This is good news

Not until we reform our own universities and scientific establishment.

The crisis of replication exists in the UK too.

There is no benefit in funding fake scientific research.

[MachDiamond]

Re: This is good news

"There is no benefit in funding fake scientific research."

It sounds like it would be a good idea to have a department with scientifically literate experts to evaluate where would be the best place to dispense funding.

[fpx]

It's not just the talent that is lost, but also the future talent that will never apply for a government or government-funded job.

But then, who needs talent when Elon's death star AI will instantly solve fusion, sea-level rise (don't call it global warming) and world peace the moment it is turned on, with no science involved.

[PB90210]

Donald's already sorted out a peace in Ukraine and Gaza...

[nobody who matters]

Donald's already sorted out a piece of Ukraine and Gaza...

FTFY

[Felonmarmer]

Pi = 3

Next doc Trump signs into law?

Yeah I know it's been tried before, but that was when there was some sense enough to stop it. Think of the bigly savings in simplifying calculations, and not having to do floating point operations if you make all measurements integers, who needs measurements less than an inch anyway!

[Wang Cores]

Re: Pi = 3

I'll start being the Sign My Petiton Guy to change the national anthem to the March of the Gladiators soon after. Bigly strong music name.

[Munchausen's proxy]

Re: Pi = 3

> I'll start being the Sign My Petiton Guy to change the national anthem to the March of the Gladiators soon after. Bigly strong music name.

Couple that with replacing "America the Beautiful" with "The Merry-go-Round Broke Down" and you would have a near-perfect representation.

Th Th Th That's all Folks!

[Sanguma]

Re: Pi = 3

Actually, you're forgetting the Mickey Mouse March ... and Beck's Loser, and Dennis Leary's Asshole, all of which could represent Trump's America as national anthems ...

[MachDiamond]

Re: Pi = 3

"March of the Gladiators soon after

I vote for March of the Pigs by Nine Inch Nails.

[PB90210]

Re: Pi = 3

'inch'

That's a nasty nasty colonial era measurement... needs to be replaced by the 'Donald', but that will be so bigly big that you can see it from space!... and that would be subdivided into 'Barrons' because he's tall, so tall... then for all those teensy weensy tiny things you would have the 'Sleepy Joe' because he's so insignificant

[nobody who matters]

Re: Pi = 3

No, no, no; 'The Donald' will be the new name for the Dollar!

[collinsl]

Re: Pi = 3

Why not both? It would be so... Aladeen

[codejunky]

Hmm

So the US with a huge deficit and splashing money in all directions is tightening its belt. Everything can be broadly justified, thats why it existed in the first place. But so can anyone who is addicted to spending, what they struggle with is living within their means.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Hmm

A government and a household are not the same. You might make analogies for the voters but that is a simplification.

The current budget cutting is incoherent and untargeted. Akin to turning off the heating and cancelling the house insurance just because they are big numbers on the monthly statement

[codejunky]

Re: Hmm

@AC

"A government and a household are not the same."

You are right. When the country goes bust it takes households with it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Hmm

Oh come on. Take a look at the big four budget items and apply Amdahl's law: unless you cut HHS, Medicare, Medicaid and/or Defence the rest is just window dressing. A quick route to a surplus is easy (but not legal, not that that matters much...). There may not be much left at the end, but at least the numbers would look good.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Hmm

The waste in Medicare and Medicaid is staggering, same with defence. As there is a revolving door between govt and pharma/healthcare/defence there is no incentive for politicians to fix the waste as it will fund their lifestyle once they move to the private sector.

At least the NHS usually tries to negotiate with suppliers.

[Philo T Farnsworth]

Re: Hmm

Yes, all those sick people getting medical care and others getting preventive care so that they don't get sick and cost a lot of money.

Oddly, perhaps, one of the biggest (alleged) Medicare fraudsters is now in the Senate

[Rick] Scott was pressured to resign as chief executive of Columbia/HCA in 1997. During his tenure as chief executive, the company defrauded Medicare, Medicaid, and other federal programs. The U.S. Department of Justice won 14 felony convictions against the company, which was fined $1.7 billion in what was at the time the largest healthcare fraud settlement in U.S. history.¹

According to Politifact

Scott resigned as CEO in July 1997, less than four months after the inquiry became public. Company executives said had Scott remained CEO, the entire chain could have been in jeopardy.²

And negotiating costs?

Try to do that and somebody sues, usually in the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals

A constitutional challenge to the Biden administration program enabling Medicare to negotiate lower prices for widely used prescription drugs was revived by a federal appeals court in New Orleans in a 2-1 decision Friday.³

¹ Senator Rick Scott (R)

² Says Rick Scott "oversaw the largest Medicare fraud in the nation’s history."

³ An appeals court has revived a challenge to President Biden’s Medicare drug price reduction program

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Hmm

"Try to do that and somebody sues, usually in the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals"

Oh god, you can't have lower costs!!! How would the pharma bros get super rich and give all the middle men and politicians who enable them HUGE kickbacks? The whole point of the US government is that it is a HUGE money-go-round. Pour money in the front, put some in your pocket, flow money out the other end to your friends and cronies, get some back for your pocket, end up working for those companies, fill your pockets from the government money pipe.

The people get taxed so that the govt can give them back some of their own money and this makes the govt look kind and generous.

[Robert 22]

Re: Hmm

"The waste in Medicare and Medicaid is staggering" Really? What is your evidence? You think that the favored alternative of private sector insurance companies is more efficient at anything other than putting money into the pockets of a few executives?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Hmm

Oh god no. The difference is the government is not funding most private individuals so there is a finite limit to how much the healthcare industry can fleece them. The whole system is fundamentally broken. No other country on earth would put up with it. The healthcare industry, along with defence, know that the US govt will pay whatever the price as there are almost no checks and balances.

You would not go to a shop where nothing has a price marked and you were told 'we will tell you the price after you're fully committed you can't take anything back and if you don't pay we will bankrupt you through the courts'. And the price depends on if you are paying cash or card and also depends which card you use. Ah, you have a visa, you need to pay an extra 10%.

[codejunky]

Re: Hmm

@AC

"There may not be much left at the end, but at least the numbers would look good."

If you are right then the outcome is going to be very upsetting. Living beyond ones means can only go so far before it collapses. That isnt an optional aspect of reality, just the limits of reality. This is why the idea that government can indefinitely ignore reality while a household cannot doesnt work. Government can ignore reality for longer but the consequences are also much larger.

Maybe you are right but I hope you are wrong.

[Robert 22]

Re: Hmm

The priority doesn't seem to be eliminating deficits let alone reducing debt. It is making the US a tax haven for oligarchs. Moreover, many of the cuts will prove expensive in the future. Sure cutting the CDC will save money in the short term. But what happens when the next pandemic rolls around?

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Hmm

"Sure cutting the CDC will save money in the short term. But what happens when the next pandemic rolls around?"

I think they already got a taste of that when amongst the Dept of Ag. firings, it was pointed out that the team managing the birdflu pandemic had just been fired and that was "not A Good Thing". Other similar "unintended consequences" of these stupidly "thought out" mass lay-offs have also occurred and resulted in U-turns and desperate attempts to rehire important staff, at least some of whom have become "difficult to contact". I have no doubt some of them will be senior enough and wealthy enough to not go back and either retire or walk into another job. I think they'd have to be particularly desperate or dedicated to want to go back to a job where you might be fired again at less than an hours notice at the whim of a pair of sociopaths.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Hmm

>You are right. When the country goes bust it takes households with it.

Rampant inflation brought in by the introduction of tariffs on all imports is more likely to make USA go bust than having a large debt alone - especially when that country owns 640 million acres of land (worth several trillion $ alone), a metric shedload of military equipment, infrastructure and the rest to offset the debt.

And if enough households go bust, they take the country with it.

[Like a badger]

Re: Hmm

"And if enough households go bust, they take the country with it"

Only in extremis. Normally the impact of lots of households going bust is on big financial services lenders, and they then get bailed out by government with printed money that leads to inflation that affects individuals (especially poorer ones) most. Go back to 2008 through 2015, central banks were congratulating themselves how quantitative easing was a new magick which allowed bail outs without triggering inflation, then look forward post 2015 and hey presto loads of inflation that's all the fault of....well somebody other than bankers.

[Alistair]

Re: Hmm

loads of inflation that's all the fault of....well somebody other than bankers

Check the price of petroleum products from 2016 on. Compare to inflation rates. Do appropriate mental math. Review => Petroleum *TRADER* profit lines.

[EvilDrSmith]

Re: Hmm

I've long held the belief that when (self) important people (i.e. politicians) pompously declare that 'you can't run a country like a household', what they really mean is that they are so incompetent, they can't even balance their own household budget, let alone the country's.

That the current incumbent of a house that the British burnt down in 1814 seems determined to push through sweeping, unfocused, ill-considered and damaging-to-the-US cuts to government spending does not mean that any cut to government spending is bad.

A sensible and responsible government that is running a large deficit, and which is paying out large sums of tax-payers money as interest on a large national debt (money which could otherwise be used for something more directly beneficial to the nation's citizens), should rightly seek to reduce its spending, so as to reduce the debt, and thus reduce the money paid out as interest on the debt.

This last statement should NOT be taken to mean that the US currently has a sensible and responsible government.

[ChodeMonkey]

Re: Hmm

"house that the British burnt down in 1814"

This is ill-advised to mention right now. President Trump may ask, "The British To Pay" for The White House.

[EvilDrSmith]

Re: Hmm

It was just an early example of private enterprise cutting wasteful Federal government....

[collinsl]

Re: Hmm

Plus it was revenge for the sacking and burning of York (now Toronto). The British were much more restrained in their conduct than the Americans (no parallels to today here, no siree) and only burned the public buildings of Washington, leaving private householders alone and paying for food taken, as they had on their march up the Potomac to get to Washington.

The hurricane which caused the British to evacuate Washington DC did more damage than the British did to private property really.

[ChodeMonkey]

Re: Hmm

"and splashing money in all directions is tightening its belt"

Quite so, Madam. Quite so.

Cost of security for a round or two of golf?

Cost of lapping THE BEAST, a flyover and then attending the Superbowl security?

Having gullible taxpayers foot the bill ? PRICELESS.

Belt tightening indeed.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Hmm

Cost of looking after Hunter Biden? Cost of mint choc chip ice cream? Yes, the taxpayer had to foot the bill for Hunter's security.

Having AF1 buzz Daytona was just too cool though!!

[ChodeMonkey]

Re: Hmm

It would appear that AC is pro government waste. Or perhaps some kind of socialist?

[Fruit and Nutcase]

Re: Hmm

Cost of security for a round or two of golf?

In the picture therein, with Trump waving as he leaves the golf club - is that Trump Jnr moonlighting as a Sheriff's Deputy?

[MrAptronym]

Re: Hmm

How much do you think the NSF costs? It is less than 0.1% of the federal budget. Do you even know what they do or how *you* benefit from their work? You would want people who understand the thing they are in charge of to be doing the cuts.

This is not 'budget tightening', this is a combination of looting and a vindictive stab at people perceived as being against the administration's ideology.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Hmm

Don't you love it when someone tells you that this government agency isn't spending THAT much of YOUR hard-earned dollars??!!

[codejunky]

Re: Hmm

@AC

"Don't you love it when someone tells you that this government agency isn't spending THAT much of YOUR hard-earned dollars??!!"

And yet when it comes to funding a border wall people will scream its a waste of money.

[MrAptronym]

Re: Hmm

What a silly argument that it is worthless to consider the cost and benefits of a government program. I am sure it feels great to be all "Taxes suck, government spending is all bad." but I bet you expect to drive on roads or have fires put out. You also probably expect that when you buy something, they have to actually give you that thing. When you go to your job to earn YOUR hard-earned dollars, you may even expect not to be poisoned or crushed. Those are government initiatives. Perhaps you'd rather live in a world with no government services or investments?

Maybe you do not think it is worthwhile for the government to fund science. You may not care about the money that generates for the economy over time, the soft power that brings the US or the general good that science and technology can bring to people. Maybe you think that funding any science outreach is dumb and bad as well. Then make that argument.

[Anonymous Coward]

Do they pay unemployment in the USA? It would be interesting to see how the levels of unemployment have changed once DOGE has finished its mission.

[Anonymous Coward]

>Do they pay unemployment in the USA? It would be interesting to see how the levels of unemployment have changed once DOGE has finished its mission.

Yes, they do.

Currently, it appears that DOGE has cut around 10,000 government jobs - mostly probationers - not including those it cut then realised they need, like those who look after the nuclear weapon stockpile. Each of those will indirectly affect the income of ~10 people - usually a cut in wages/tips or loss of their job. Unemployed people don't need taxis, childminders, trips to the bar or restaurant, vacations, hair cuts, etc.

So, you are, in theory, looking at ~100,000 jobs affected in the last month. It will be interesting to see what the exact figures are - if they allow them to be reported.

[Anonymous Coward]

'Enfeeblement' of the Govt is 100% on track ... noone to get in the way of Trumpf 2.0 !!!

Trumpf is getting rid of the people who may be able to calculate those 'exact figures'.

Crippled Govt cannot function BUT also is not capable of catching all the scams etc that Trumpf and his friends will be running for the next 5 years or so.

If you have an unplanned and unstructured reduction in people in the govt, all govt oversight and control will be hit.

Trumpf can make up any statistics and there will be noone to say it is lies.

Therefore, Trumpf will be the 'Bestest' President the US of A has ever had ... look the stats will prove it !!!

:)

[Kurgan]

US scientist, come to Europe or Canada

Time for US scientists to come to Europe. Or Canada, if they don't want to learn another language. Or UK, unless the UK becomes a shit show like the US is. (Actually I think the UK started its enshittification before the US, but then the US made a mad rush and won)

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: US scientist, come to Europe or Canada

Well in the UK we've had a series of governments of ever increasing special-ness with the latest making bold claims about not cutting this and not increasing that who promptly cut this and increased that and amazingly somehow inflation has gone up.... didn't see that coming!

Western societies have become so reliant on government handouts that any hint at cuts has people screaming in the streets. Ignoring the fact that less money comes out than goes in.

[Like a badger]

Re: US scientist, come to Europe or Canada

"Time for US scientists to come to Europe. Or Canada, if they don't want to learn another language. Or UK, unless the UK becomes a shit show like the US is. (Actually I think the UK started its enshittification before the US, but then the US made a mad rush and won)"

Don't let facts spoil your flow of resentment, but the UK central government research spending via UKRI was about £8bn in 2023, the US National Science Foundation budget for 2023 was $9.9bn. Clearly there's plenty of other pots of research money in the US (eg the bottomless funding for anything military), but as UKRI and USNSF are fairly comparable, it's pretty creditable that the UK with an economy a fifth the size of the US is putting so much into R&D. That does beg the question why the UK economy isn't more advanced and more productive, but that's for another day.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: US scientist, come to Europe or Canada

"That does beg the question why the UK economy isn't more advanced and more productive, but that's for another day."

Very good question! I'd love to know.

[MrAptronym]

Re: US scientist, come to Europe or Canada

Sad I gave up on academia and entered industry. Maybe I should have put in for a post-doc in europe when it was an option.

[Fruit and Nutcase]

Re: US scientist, come to Europe or Canada

If they come to the UK, they'll have to learn a teensy bit of language - convert from current Vulture English to Olde-Vulture English. Leaving the US work (labor) force and joining the UK work (labour) force.

And then they'll have to get used to "proper" Beer. And they'll also be only a short hop away from even more Beer over in Europe

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: US scientist, come to Europe or Canada

Likewise, if they,move to Canadialand, they may have to learn French in some parts of that great 51st State :-)

[Lewis R]

Re: US scientist, come to Europe or Canada

Time for US scientists to go into the private sector in the US (aka get avreal job based on one's abilities).

TFTFY

[rgjnk]

What a mess

Nothing fundamentally wrong with reevaluating budgets, projects and roles but this has been a definite example of how not to do it. Looks just like a repeat of how Elon did it with his own toys.

The only upside I can see to this whole mess is that Elon's narcissism finally led him to do something that will lead to him being pursued forever and with any luck end up jailed as he's utterly neglected to get himself the sort of legal cover that his (nominal) boss might maybe have.

Having had years of getting away with ignoring all the rules with minimal consequence he's well & truly gone over the edge. Consequences might not be immediate but at this point they look inevitable.

Elon's minions are going to find the world a very harsh place too once they discover that following orders isn't a valid defence. They've trod on too many toes too publicly, and their hubris & arrogance (and ignorance) will screw them. The only 'clever' bit by Elon might be that in using naive young fanatic interns he can maybe deflect some blame their way claiming what they did wasn't what he asked for - sacrificial goats are always handy...

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: What a mess

Just imagine if the next president of the USA is a Democrat and they decide to play the revenge card once in power?

I'd expect Trump to try to avoid this by issuing presedential pardons to all his minions, but can an incoming preseident release an executive order cancelling the pardons issued by Trump? (asking as a right pondian)

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: What a mess

Whatever the answer to that question I think the US is going to have to take a long look at its constitution when the dust settles. It looks as if offsetting the presidential and legislative elections might be the only effective safeguard. What chance panic-striken Republicans impeaching Trump within a year?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: What a mess

Impeachment as a process is dead !!!

Trumpf gamed it and any other 'Target' will do likewise.

The Republicans are now caught in between victory BUT having no control over the victor.

Trumpf will target his 'revenge' in all directions as he sees fit ... being a Republican is no protection.

The president is NOT a Republican BUT is simply Trumpf representing Trumpf ... end of.

:)

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: What a mess

"The president is NOT a Republican"

Good, that is what we voted for! Not another lifelong uniparty crony.

[Wang Cores]

Re: What a mess

You voted for the actual uniparty (IE: rich interests) candidate to show the uniparty you mean business. Trump voter logic.

[nobody who matters]

Re: What a mess

<........".......I think the US is going to have to take a long look at its constitution when the dust settles"........>

I fear the dust will take a very long time to settle.

In the meantime I have no doubt that Trump et al will have a very long and careful look at the US constitution (actually, I feel pretty confident that they already have done), and will make changes to it that will ensure that he and his sycophantic acolytes are safe from any consequences of their actions, and will make further changes to make it virtually impossible for anyone other than Trump and his nominated successor(s) to become President.

Much of the US still doesn't seem to appreciate what half the population have done, much less its long term consequences. By the time they realise, it will be far too late. Indeed, I fear it already is :(

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: What a mess

>Just imagine if the next president of the USA is a Democrat and they decide to play the revenge card once in power?

The dynamic is such: Democrats meekly attempt to address popular concerns where a few defectors and Republicans stonewall and shout "government overreach" to call their constituents to arms (sometimes literally) while Republicans appeal to the fear of a changing world to ram through unpopular policy as riders, which Democrats can then use as a cudgel for people skeptical of their goals when they don't follow through ("you support that?").

Escalate rhetoric, rig the game, and kill little people as need be, but never fuck with the bag. This system has worked for so long and so many people got elected to become "career rebels" against the system while taking multiples of their salary FROM that system, it was believed everlasting.

We are now testing the absolute limits of this system with Trump II: About half of the Republicans are realizing they're no longer in favor, and the other half still are cheering it on, to get some more loot while he's throwing the rocks. The Democrats are filled with careerists: a half don't want to work, and will sign off anything that keeps them in office, and the other half are convinced that temporarily playing Emmanuel Goldstein to the nascent Oceania will get them a cushy Innerparty position.

Do not expect a major reversal of this from either the major parties as they stand now. It will have to come from somewhere else.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: What a mess

"Democrats meekly attempt to address popular concerns"

1) good you accept the Dems are populist

2) I've never seen the word meekly used when encouraging violence, rioting, destruction of private property and then funding the bail and lawyers of those caught doing such things.

The unpopular policies being rammed through as riders are usually from the Dems and are purely ideological. They have such a superiority complex that they think EVERYONE thinks the same way.

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: What a mess

2) I've never seen the word meekly used when encouraging violence, rioting, destruction of private property and then funding the bail and lawyers pardoning of those caught doing such things.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: What a mess

Biden didn't need to pardon the BLM rioters as they were mostly let off without charge or got super sweet plea deals when the public outcry was too much to ignore.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: What a mess

> I'd expect Trump to try to avoid this by issuing presedential pardons to all his minions, but can an incoming preseident release an executive order cancelling the pardons issued by Trump? (asking as a right pondian)

For Trump to issue a pardon they'd first have to be convicted. Which implies that conviction would have to happen during the Trump administration. Which is unlikely to happen.

[steviebuk]

Re: What a mess

No they can't cancel the pardons, that's the point of them and was the reason Biden did all his. Doesn't mean anyone Biden pardoned was guilty, he just knew orange tango man is a spiteful cunt so would chase all those he didn't pardon. He'll attempt to tie them up in court to bankrupt them. Its what he's done for years in his business'. Doesn't pay and people don't take it to court as he just drags the court process out until they give up or go bankrupt.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: What a mess

"Doesn't mean anyone Biden pardoned was guilty"

Hmm.. in 2020 the Democrat highers were saying that anyone who accepted a pardon from Trump must be guilty.

[steviebuk]

Re: What a mess

Because most people that did trumps bidding were guilty of a crime. They all thought nothing would ever happen to them, as Michael Cohen explained, but once he has no use for you anymore, he'll let anything happen to you as he doesn't care about anyone but himself and banging, I mean, looking after his daughter.

[collinsl]

Re: What a mess

Pardons are explicitly never rescindable or cancellable per the constitution, or you can bet Trump Executive Order #1 would have been "Cancel all the pardons Sleepy Joe gave out for his family, start investigating them all!"

[codejunky]

Re: What a mess

@collinsl

"or you can bet Trump Executive Order #1 would have been "Cancel all the pardons Sleepy Joe gave out for his family, start investigating them all!""

Can you imagine the revelations to come from that! All those claims of wrongdoing by Trump vastly overshadowed by actual crimes by actual criminals!

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: What a mess

Imagine if a president of the United States was a convicted felon? Well there is no need to imagine. The current one is! America's Criminal In Chief. CICOTUS.

[Anonymous Coward]

everyone at the NSF who was caught up in the firing that had been at the agency between 12 and 24 months appears to have had their original employment contract, with its one-year probation period, violated.

I forsee some interesting court cases, and some richer lawyers...

[Jimmy2Cows]

I'd like to think a lot these will be challenged in court, but I'm not optimistic. Cost, for a start. And with the SCOTUS in his pocket, success doesn't seem likely no matter how illegal these moves might be.

[Robert 22]

Contracts don't seem to mean much in Trump's America. Ask the Canadians about NAFTA.

[Roland6]

“.. jeopardizes the future of American leadership in computing."

I had got the impression that the US was no longer the leader in computing (research), that had already moved, with developments such as DeepSeek being just the tip of the iceberg…

[Sleep deprived]

Make America Go Awry

Next step is Away in isolationism, because the Orange Angry Man doesn't seem too good at making and keeping allies.

[MrAptronym]

It's over.

I am an American, and I got my PhD with an NSF fellowship and a NASA grant. I did much of my work at a DoE facility using a synchrotron the government paid for. I met my wife in grad school, and she came here to study in the US and work on a NASA grant. The US has been *the* destination for research across dozens of vital fields, but we have been slipping for a while. Funding has already been slipping relative to China and a couple others. Places are catching up. The US has now shown itself at best to be an unreliable place for long term projects. The ideological tests on what research to fund will drive away entire fields. The proposed 15% caps on overhead would eliminate the American research institution. (Not that there isn't admin waste, but this would not even keep the lights on.) With RFK Jr at the helm, the NIH is rapidly losing its legitimacy and will soon all be as much of a farce as NCCIH is. Destroying the infrastructure of our established research system is not something we just recover from.

I hope that there will be research opportunities in Europe and elsewhere for the next generation of talented American academics because I don't think they will get their chance here anymore.

Even if the US avoids the complete descent into permanent authoritarian control, this is probably the end of our prominence as a leading force in science and technology. In two months, Trump and his cronies have destroyed one of the real successes of America in the 20th century. This is what you get when your popular conception of technological innovation are useless silicon valley parasites devising new ways to siphon money as middlemen. This is what you get when the public face of intellect is Elon Musk. This is what you get when your idea of power is petty bullying and extortion. The United States will only remain a world leader in the march towards oblivion, gleefully destroying our environment, rights, economy and the very knowledge that we had tried to improve things with. Rest In Piss.

[Sleep deprived]

Re: It's over.

Generations of talented American academics won't renew themselves when school funding is axed and corporations train their own slaves while intellectual tasks are performed by AI.

[MachDiamond]

Re: It's over.

"corporations train their own slaves while intellectual tasks are performed by AI."

Many corporations have long since gotten out of raising their own talent and instead look for experienced people at other corps that they can poach. That's slowed down since there's a logical end to that sort of tactic. I'm going to expect plenty of large companies are going to die via big AI gaffs when it gets to the point where they don't have qualified humans back-checking what shows up in the the output basket. If computers can allow one to make bigger mistakes in less time, AI is going to be the Mother of All Mistakes and be even quicker to the crash site.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: It's over.

> Funding has already been slipping relative to China and a couple others.

This. China could easily snap up sacked talent with suitably generous offers. And even if those tempted refuse to do weapons research or dual-use research, the US and other western powers are still prevented from making use of that brainpower and China still benefits from whatever research they do actually do.

China knows that time and demographics are on its side. All it has to do is wait: Trump is simply making that wait somewhat shorter.

Maybe Dubai or Saudi Arabia could be persuaded to offer ludicrous "footballer" salaries to keep the scientists "in the West" until Trump is gone and sanity prevails?

[Robert 22]

Re: It's over.

The Chinese have been doing that for a while. They are probably rubbing their hands with glee - now they won't have to make such extravagant offers.

[steviebuk]

Re: It's over.

I think one area here that is wrong, China won't hire them. China has been copying tech for years like they did their jet fighter. The issue here is, orange tango man, gutting what he is gutting is going to make America's computer security and network security a lot weaker. So China will have a MUCH easier time to break in and steal the blueprints as they've been doing for years.

Sadly, with the CCP involved, China doesn't invent anything anymore. It steals and copies.

[MachDiamond]

Re: It's over.

"I hope that there will be research opportunities in Europe and elsewhere for the next generation of talented American academics because I don't think they will get their chance here anymore."

It's worth looking into that move now before the rush.

[Arc_Light]

Re: It's over.

I have a very similar back-story and very much the same take. If anyone here - especially those who are concerned with limiting government spending - wants to know how things are done at NSF, BTW, I am happy to provide a firsthand account based on over a decade of recent experience, having seen it up close as both a panelist and successful PI. Probably not a bad thing to understand the agency whose decimation is being carried out in your name…

Coming back to the impact of all of this, I left a tenured faculty position in the US for a non-academic research position in the EU (turns out some of us who teach also “can” and “do”) nearly ten years ago and have thought to myself numerous times since that time that it’s good I left when I did. Based on recent events, I have strongly advised my management target people leaving the American research system for hiring, because it’s clear that this will be the upshot. At the same time, it makes me sick to see this happening. The NSF was underfunded as it was - the success rates were already so low that luck was a major factor even after ending up in the “excellent” pile, and it was only getting worse. The last grant I won before leaving represented the first time my co-PI and I couldn’t afford to support a single PhD student for the full four year term of their studies, and that was at a reasonably priced* public institution with decent overheads and low costs compared to a lot of other places…

*By US standards, let’s be clear…

PS - I saw someone saying something to the effect that this would require Americans learning foreign languages; take care, because in STEM, the grad student population has been international for so long that the faculty now reflects this as well, with plenty of faculty members coming from outside of the US originally, in addition to the vast majority of PhDs and post-docs. There are plenty of foreign-born researchers in government labs as well. For some of them, the bigger adjustment upon leaving the US may be (re)gaining access to a functional healthcare system, modern public transit, affordable higher education and freedom from mass shootings (the socialist hellscape you’ve all been warned about in other words)…

[steviebuk]

You

don't need no science when jesus can save us all, jesus will tell us what to do.

Fuck whits.

[that one in the corner]

Hope Musk gets his Mars launch ready in time

> Without support, our future STEM workforce will suffer, with major economic impact to the USA.

If the STEM education gets much worse and the rise to Theocracy continues, Musk is going to be fighting to keep the crowds away from his launches - not the sightseers, but the Pious who are enraged at his claims to be able to breach The Firmament.

It'd be a darn shame if Elon gets caught up in his own web of over-promising and isn't ready in time before the crowd crashes the gates and begins beating the ground crew with shiny new Trump Bibles [1] and tryin' ta lassoo dat eeenormoos heathen phallic idol standin' yonder.

[1] 2nd Edition, with all the weak-ass Commie nonsense taken out (thur won't no "mount" an' sure weren't no "sermon" thayr) and an extra 50 verses in Relevations.

[Sanguma]

Trump Marks 1 and 2 = US's long suicide note to the world

Always happens when people take themselves for granted. So the US will get rid of everything requiring an intellect greater than Homer Simpson's ... any chance we could export Trump to Mars? and Elon Musk, while we're at it, minus those expensive money-wasters, the space suits and pressure suits and oxygen ... He's a very stable genius, he'll work out something, since he knows so much ...

[O'Reg Inalsin]

Everyone has the right - perhaps even civil duty - to argue and lobby for their own interests and about how their own needs and contributions are of great importance.

At the same you have to remember that Democracy is not free - and if you don't or won't play the game, you can lose everything. In the last election the Democrats did not do well, and post election their reputation is in the dumps - [Axios Jan 29, 2025] - "Democrats hammered by ugly unpopularity numbers". Axios is not a right wing mouthpiece, just honest. The numbers seem to be worse now than the 2024 election showing.

Perhaps screaming that folks with a Homer Simpson IQ are dumbfucks is actually a dumbfuck thing to do in a Democracy? EQ (Emotional Quotient) is not equal to IQ (the thing that Chatbots are now good at). Maybe the Homer SImpsons of the USA are actually better at knowing what is good for them than someone who lives in an entirely different social sphere than themselves.

[ProPublica Nov 6, 2024]- Trump’s Near Sweep of Texas Border Counties Shows a Shift to the Right for Latino Voters - The former president captured 55% of Latino voters in the state, according to exit polls. He also won 14 out of the 18 counties within 20 miles of the border, a number that doubled his 2020 performance in the Latino-majority region.

I would say the solution is to expand the primaries to all voters/candidates not registered to another party. I know that would be uncomfortable, but it's already uncomfortable isn't it?

[FuzzyTheBear]

Self destruction

They're on that path , we should all let them become a third , if not a fourth , rate country and take advantage of the dismantling of their institutions to rise and leave them behind. The regime is hellbent on making enemies left and right , their signature is meaningless on any accord. I mean , they want to sink their country down the hole , i say let them. Trump does more damage than Russia could have ever dreamed of . TIme to put them on ignore , leave them behind and seize the occasion by taking in as much of their toip minds , from philosophers to nuclear scientists and give them a life they can only dream of in their country, We got much to offer , they get nothing but hate from their govermnent. Come on , we're bright enough to know when the time to act has arrived.

Drain the swamp ? Yeah , we'll take their brightest out the swamp they're in with Trump. I don't think a single scientist is not aware of their situation.

To our governments : time to act agressively is now. Time to leave the American markets and get on with doing business between civilised countries.

Time to invest in ourselves instead of the USA is now.

May they act swiftly and decisively.

Ok it hands a win to Russia : destroying the USA is their goal , and at this point i cheer for it.

It's an occasion for the rest of the world to get rid of an unreliable partner.

Ric

[MachDiamond]

There go the legs

I have an extra few kgs I'm lugging around, but a diet is a much better long term approach over chopping off my legs. Of course, with no legs, I'd have a hard time getting work. No work means no money. No money means no food so the diet is enforced financially ON TOP of all the weight I lose by the chopping off of the legs.

A diet can take time, but it's a better long term strategy. What Elon is doing is running around playing Texas Chain Saw Massacre leaving government lying on the ground bleeding and those that know how things work that are left out looking for real jobs in the private sector. Sure, some scything is appropriate, but there's both wheat and chaff. Knowing which is which is important.

[codejunky]

Re: There go the legs

@MachDiamond

"I have an extra few kgs I'm lugging around, but a diet is a much better long term approach over chopping off my legs."

Is the desire to lose the few kgs enough to motivate you to diet? If yes then will that motivation be sustrained for a long enough time to make a change? At the same time do you have any opposition who block you off from healthy stuff and keep forcing you into non-dieting foods? After a short time will you not potentially have a brain replacement that desires getting as fat as possible?

Not the best analogy but I tried.

"A diet can take time, but it's a better long term strategy."

And combing through all these glutinous programs and trimming the fat while focusing them on their actual job would avoid collateral damage but take an incredibly long time, and be fought tooth and nail by the opposition, and would end up as corrupted as any government institution over time. This isnt legs, this is a cancerous bureaucracy. It is consuming the US and killing it. Trump has 4 years to deal with this cancer as well as everything else a president must deal with. Wars from the previous administration, the weaponised state security forces, etc.

[MachDiamond]

Re: There go the legs

"And combing through all these glutinous programs and trimming the fat while focusing them on their actual job would avoid collateral damage but take an incredibly long time, "

So we let Elon behead the agency that looks after Federal Highways and just accept the odd bridge failure that wasn't seen coming as the teams that make the inspections were also part of the culling?

It took a long time to get to the gluttony that government in the US is now and it will take time to unravel a lot of that. Hopefully, some effort will be put in place to prevent the fat from coming back. Too many things that the government does are necessary and don't lend themselves to private industry. If something like the post office is torn down, many people in areas with lower densities won't be profitable to serve. The government still communicates by mail which would suffer greatly without the post. Would you really want your sensitive information from the government sent via a Gmail account? How many times has Google been spanked for reading mail?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: There go the legs

From an outside point of view as someone who visits the US on a regular basis the inspection of roads and bridges seems to have been stopped some decades ago. The horror stories of bridges that have either been left to rot or have been inspected, found to be near collapse and then just ignored are pretty shocking. It seems that a huge bureaucratic culture of 'this is someone else's problem to fix' while local govt is often lead by people who think they are gods and see the police and courts as their personal enforcers.

A local police force shot and killed a guy in his own home over a stolen weed whacker. The problem being the police had the wrong person and had raided the wrong house while executing a warrant outside of the allowed time for such warrants all cos the local judge wanted his weed whacker back.

https://atlantablackstar.com/2024/12/31/kentucky-cops-raid-wrong-home-kill-man-over-alleged-stolen-weed-eater/

You could see through some of the structural steel on the Fern Hollow bridge it was that badly corroded.

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Pages/HWY22MH003.aspx

The US has long been known for its attitude of 'we will do something AFTER someone is dead'. From both govt and private corporations.

Maybe DOGE will focus the minds of those involved.

[codejunky]

Re: There go the legs

@MachDiamond

"So we let Elon behead the agency that looks after Federal Highways and just accept the odd bridge failure that wasn't seen coming as the teams that make the inspections were also part of the culling?"

It depends. If they are looking after the highways no. If a tiny part of their job is looking at the highways and the rest is spaffing money up the wall and funding terrorism and criminality then yes you cut it down and bring it back to its job.

"It took a long time to get to the gluttony that government in the US is now and it will take time to unravel a lot of that"

Obama is actually recorded saying he wanted to cut waste. Instead of cutting its grown excessively. This is the failure of slow cuts in a bureaucracy where the bureaucrats can out wait you. Trump has 4 years and they can stall him endlessly.

"Hopefully, some effort will be put in place to prevent the fat from coming back"

I dont think that is possible. There will always be that growth in parasite until it is removed which takes a vigilance you only get by the host dying. Government doesnt die until it takes the country with it and even then it drags on torturing the poor residents.

Some stuff must be done by government. But instead of looking at it as some benevolent guiding hand, against all evidence, it should be seen as the necessary evil.

[MachDiamond]

Re: There go the legs

"Some stuff must be done by government. But instead of looking at it as some benevolent guiding hand, against all evidence, it should be seen as the necessary evil."

It's the same way I look at company management. It's a necessary evil and needs to be constantly kept in check as it's parasitic.

[codejunky]

Re: There go the legs

@MachDiamond

"It's the same way I look at company management. It's a necessary evil and needs to be constantly kept in check as it's parasitic."

Can drink to that. Enough to forget a previous employment!

[Wizardling]

We should all work to actively poach the USA's scientists who are purged.

The USA is done for - a failed experiment in wonky extreme right government and fanaticism. Let's reap the rewards by poaching every disaffected scientist.

[Kev99]

El Tonto doesn't believe in sciene, only poppy-cock, codswallup, taradiddle.

[Anonymous Coward]

What has science ever done for us?

oh

[Pantagoon]

The UK REALLY needs to welcome scientists from the US with a very favourable relocation package.

[MachDiamond]

"The UK REALLY needs to welcome scientists from the US with a very favourable relocation package."

There are programs for that. Even Edinger did a video on the current paths towards citizenship in the UK (done properly). With a good job ready and waiting, there's no need to hand out cash. I might, at some point, see if I can leverage my granddad's Scottish past to get some sort of status as a "legacy".