back to article Boeing, Boeing, burned: Over half a billion dollars by Starliner in 2024

Boeing's CST-100 Starliner project has added a reach-forward loss of $523 million for the aviation giant, taking total losses for the program beyond the $2 billion mark. The aerospace giant's Form 10-K, filed with the US Securities and Exchange Commission, revealed the number. A reach-forward loss is when estimates of total …

  1. pro-logic

    And now with president Musk

    I don't think it's very likely they'll be getting a big fat taxpayer bailout.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: And now with president Musk

      What odds on some decree that they are relevant to America's ambitions in space but not viable in current form, setting up some sort of forced asset stripping to another company, i.e. SpaceX?

      1. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

        Re: Forced asset stripping

        Not an obvious choice. Boeing assembles Starliner from a mixture of parts made in house and from parts that are bought in. SpaceX is far more vertically integrated and makes most if not all of their Dragon parts themselves. It is not clear that Boeing has anything SpaceX needs or even wants. SpaceX consider Dragon to be a cash cow. There will probably be some minor changes but there will never be a major overhaul of the design.

        Long term (and I do mean long) the future of SpaceX human spaceflight will be Starship. The license upgrade from 5 to 25 orbital launches per year from Boca Chica currently going through public consultation does not provide anything like the number of launches required to human rate Starship for landing on Earth. The figure proposed for that was around 1000 successful upper stage landings before there is enough statistical data. Musk is not going to wait 40+ years. A license for 1000 launches per year for Boca Chica could appear by executive order. Likewise the environmental impact studies for launching Starship from Cape Kennedy could come back Finding Of No Significant Impact without the delay required to collect evidence. That 1000 figure might get reduced to 10. Any resulting deaths will not make the news because the NTSB now reports accident statistics through X (assuming the NTSB even exists next year). SpaceX might not even bother with FAA licenses. After all, who is going to fine him for anything now?

        Mostly you are thinking far too small. Musk controls the US treasury. Starliner is a wheel barrow full of cash lost in a cargo ship.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Forced asset stripping

          Mostly you are thinking far too small. Musk controls the US treasury. Starliner is a wheel barrow full of cash lost in a cargo ship.

          You are correct. I need to recalibrate the 'dystopia' setting on my thought processes.

          (f*** me, this year just gets more and more depressing. I'm starting to feel nostalgic for 2020 and the simplicity of only having to worry about a global pandemic)

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Forced asset stripping

          does not provide anything like the number of launches required to human rate Starship for landing on Earth

          A license for 1000 launches per year for Boca Chica could appear by executive order.

          Wouldn't an executive order be a faster way of rating Starship for passengers? I mean if you're king for a day (or as long as your back account holds out) why not just go for it, skip the rules entirely?

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: Forced asset stripping

            You're all think too small.

            If there is no FAA / EPA / OSHA there is no need for licenses

        3. Ian Johnston Silver badge

          Re: Forced asset stripping

          A license for 1000 launches per year for Boca Chica could appear by executive order.

          Starship launches currently cost about $60m each, although SpaceX claim they can get that down to $10m. Is there $10bn - $60bn worth of business around for it?

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: Forced asset stripping

            1, Need to deport people who were born in USA

            2, Can't send them to another country .....

            3, Profit

          2. Gene Cash Silver badge

            Re: Forced asset stripping

            > Is there $10bn - $60bn worth of business around for it?

            That's the question, isn't it? We should find out. And if there isn't, then we might see SpaceX get taken down a notch.

  2. Sceptic Tank Silver badge
    Trollface

    Lift us down where we belong

    If I were an astronaut stuck in the ISS with no way to get home, the next space walk I do would be to walk home. Doesn't look like this defunct company is going to have anything ready soon.

    1. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

      Re: Lift us down where we belong

      There are 7 astronauts on the ISS. 4 can leave in the crew Dragon currently docked there. The other three can leave in the Soyuz. NASA would like to keep the crew 9 on the ISS until after crew 10 arrive. The crew 10 Dragon is delayed because SpaceX want to run additional tests. If anyone is stranded it it us lot on Earth.

    2. herman Silver badge

      Re: Lift us down where we belong

      They need a Stairway to Heaven to get off of there.

    3. KayJ

      Re: Lift us down where we belong

      Seems more likely that any professional astronaut - that is, competent and competitive people who've gone through a long, intense and difficult process getting ready to fly in space - would feel delighted to have more time in space. Though they might not be at liberty to say so. ;)

  3. herman Silver badge

    Fool me thrice

    Try and try again - then, give up. It is no use being a damn fool about it. Boeing is hell bent on being a damn fool it seems.

  4. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

    Penny wise, pound foolish

    These losses were incurred because Boeing was managing the program according to their desired profitability and hardly caring about whether it was sufficient to design and build a capable manned spacecraft. This now comes back to bite them...hard.

    I'm still betting Boeing will exit the manned spacecraft business, but management hasn't, as of yet, decided. Maybe they worry their exit will influence their other defense contracts.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Penny wise, pound foolish

      Well if you're going to expect the defense industry to suddenly deliver a working product from government contracts - the whole edifice is going to come down.

    2. fg_swe Silver badge

      No

      Boeing has huge contracts with many USG agencies such as the NRO. They "work" for Boeing quite nicely, I assume.

      What you see in this article is probably 1/10th of Boeing space activities. Just because one part of a company has problems, does not mean all other parts must have issues.

      https://www.boeing.com/space/boeing-satellites#government

      1. UnknownUnknown

        Re: No

        https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers/boeings-2024-results-bring-six-year-losses-to-36bn-as-ceo-eyes-streamlining-our-portfolio/161549.article

      2. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

        Re: No

        Their other programs are mostly cost-plus or "black" programs where money isn't an issue and they can spent as much and be as profitable as they like. Starliner is a fixed-price contract and I'm pretty sure senior management looked at it and said to the program manager: "Well, we got $4.3 billion so you get $2 billion to build it and the rest is profit. Good luck!"

  5. Pascal Monett Silver badge
    WTF?

    "John Mulholland, who had led the Starliner program until 2020"

    Um, so they're bringing back the guy they threw out already ?

    And that is supposed to be good thing ?

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Given that it has no future, you'd think the best option would be for Boeing to simply bail on the project.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Wonder if there's any black shit buried in all that cash?

    "Quick, chuck it in the Starliner pit, nobody'll ask where that budget came from."

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Space. How hard can it be?

    Come on guys, even that "idiot" Elon Musk can do it!

    Perhaps it had something to do with a little thing called DEI? ;)

    Companies will follow Boeing and others’ lead as they acknowledge DEI’s flawed approach. DEI not only oversold imaginary return on investment that could not be measured or verified, but it did so at the cost of expending critical resources and tying up head count earmarked for DEI activities instead of activities that boost performance and capability. There is no way to keep production in focus while also allowing an externally focused bureaucracy with weak ideas to drive culture. In the near term, corporate America is increasingly aware that DEI does not mitigate or eliminate bias or the stereotypes that fuel it. Rather, DEI is simply transferring bias and stereotypes directed at one group to another group. Courageous leadership is finding its way back into the C-suites and finally forcing the logical audit of DEI rhetoric, narratives, and claims that was previously avoided.

    https://www.city-journal.org/article/why-boeing-killed-dei

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Space. How hard can it be?

      We got to the moon with Nazis - we can get back there with more Nazis

      1. seven of five Silver badge

        Re: Space. How hard can it be?

        Heil Vogler!

        -Iron Sky

    2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: Space. How hard can it be?

      DEI isn't and never was the problem. So-called "affirmative action" and quotas are and were the problems. The US got DEI wrong and are now setting themselves back years if not decades in Diversity, Equality and Inclusion. They set themselves up to fail, partly because of those who fundamentally hated the idea and went out of their way to destroy it by deliberately misinterpreting it. All evidenced by the number of Trumpers posting over the last few days equating DEI with employers being "forced" to to hire under qualified non-whites. Something which is not only untrue, but only relates to only a small part of what DEI is about.

  9. TeeCee Gold badge
    Alert

    It should be worse for them.

    ...were instead left on the International Space Station (ISS)

    As this is entirely their fault, NASA really should bill Boeing for the overtime and cost of the return taxi.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: It should be worse for them.

      Particluarly worrying for the women astronaut up there who, after today's Nasa whitewashing, never existed.

      women-astronauts-and-the-international-space-station

      1. Dan 55 Silver badge

        Re: It should be worse for them.

        The christian nationalist faction of the US government want women at home making apple pies.

        NASA Ordered to Remove Anything About ‘Women in Leadership’ From Its Websites: Report

        "This is a drop everything and reprioritize your day request."

  10. Oneman2Many Bronze badge

    Things not looking good for SLS, Boeing announced potential 400 layoffs in SLS project which would be about 1/3 of the people assigned to the project. Citing they are expecting changes in the contract. The need to give 60 days notice which roughly ties in when congress announce new funding for NASA.

  11. Scene it all

    Does "reach forward loss" mean "predicted loss"? Why not use English instead of business-obfuscation-speech?

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