Oracle starts laying mines in JavaScript trademark battle Oracle this week asked the US Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) to partially dismiss a challenge to its JavaScript trademark. The move has been criticized as an attempt to either stall or water down legal action against the database goliath over the programming language's name. Deno Land, the outfit behind the Deno …
I don't follow the Oracle logic here, if there is even such a thing.
They have no tangible Javascript products, they don't flog it, or consult on it to the best of my knowledge.
So why keep being such an insufferable horse's appendage about this?
Just let it be and do something good for once?
Too much to ask I know!
One of my users has started using the VS Code variant of Oracle SQL Developer. I believe this is Electron JavaScript.
I'm assuming that it has fewer aesthetic challenges than the Java version (which my ex-Toad users despise).
https://www.oracle.com/database/sqldeveloper/
> So why keep being such an insufferable horse's appendage about this?
My guess is that it's part of their mission: to ensure hellish times to whoever they can bully
> Just let it be and do something good for once?
We're more likely to see Google and Meta respect privacy than Oracle doing something good
What do you expect from a company that makes their employees sign mandatory binding arbitration clauses. And when the Oracle paid arbitration bites the hand that feeds them, Oracle sues the arbitrator. Oracle is pure evil. I am still convinced to this day that this company has a factory dedicated to kicking kittens and punching puppies, they are just that evil. I would choose to work at the local Qwick-E-Mart rather than to work for this evil company; and I would choose to pay twice as much for a competitor's product than to use Oracle's.
Because "JavaScript" was a deliberate attempt by Netscape to associate their new language with Java, which was the hot new thing at the time. And they had to explicitly license that already-trademarked name from Sun in the first place in order to do so.
Oracle later bought Sun and still very much involved with Java.
The argument that Oracle isn't really involved with JavaScript is a red herring in this context- they never did, but they (and Sun) always owned the trademark, which is inevitably associated with one they *do* use.
Much as I hate to side with a scummy company like Oracle, in this case they have a point, and it's very unlikely they'll lose the case.
Should people be allowed to use JavaScript in an unofficial, fair-use context? I'd say they should and, arguably, can. But that's not the same as saying the trademark can- or could- be invalidated.
Oracle are just being dicks and don't realise they are making their Brand name even more of a joke and hated company in the industry. My employer used to be a big Oracle user, but due to their constant drive for getting every penny, we cut our association to the minimum level of installs needed and didn't even bother getting support. I know our oracle business manager, wasn't a happy man, probably didn't get his new Porche or plastic Barbie upgrade this year, as we deliberately left it until last minute to tell them to FOAD!
the loony in chief will take US out if the WIPO and declare all non domestic patents, copyrights and trademarks void which would reciprocally void US patents etc in the jurisdictions of affected rights holders.
Doubtless he will also insist on withdrawing the US from the UN Law of the Sea and the ICC - at least until some non-loony informs the dill that the US aren't a signatory to these conventions.
Can't wait for the fool to insist on the relocation of the NATO headquarters to Strelsau.
Yes, when Trump stops giving the rest of us more than enough reasons to not be able to forget he still exists and is desperate to stick his nose into everyone elses business no matter how unrelated said business ought to be to the USA... Until then, you reap what you sow.
Let be honest, the Java in JavaScript is just confusing.
Oracle owning Java did nothing but damage both brands.
Oracle owning Java Script does nothing but damage Oracles brand
Nowt wrong with calling it EcmaScript, or just JS.
People call executables exes.
PHP files are called peeaichpee.
I don't see a problem with migrating to "js" pronounced jayess as the official name. A lot of people do it already.
I doubt there are any projects with JavaScript in the project title over js.
i'm on board with this,if we just call it "[CENSORED]Script", where the square brackets and all-caps are part of the name. And then the short form of the name will be [C]S, where the [C] is unpronounceable or a bleep. (And the inevitable fork could be called BleepScript.) Anyone giving a presentation about it will need a bleeper button.
PHiP ("fip")?
I guess you meant "sequel" though. Well, if fewer syllables are wanted we could just go for one, "quil" maybe, or "s"? Mostly I type or think it, so it doesn't really come up and I just find it easier to parse it as written. Also, SQL may be more syllables, but the se in sequel has a long vowel, while the second syllable has a coda ("quiL"), and to me overall it just feels longer than es cu el. YMMV obviously (yumve?).
in 1990 I had a class in OS/2 programming, and i was looking at using OS/2 for business software (year later did windows version, smarter). I was told about something called "sequel server" which I attempted to research AND COULD FIND NOTHING ON IT. A couple of years later I heard about SQL (the lingo, ALWAYS pronounced Es Queue El) and realized that IBM market-speak pronounced the PRODUCT name "sequel server".
I was appropriately nauseous, and will generally remind people who try calling the lingo or an open source database "something sequel something" because it is NOT "a sequel" to ANYTHING! The name is misleading; CONCISE and accurate communication is important.
Es Queue El - the lingo
My Es Queue El - the database server
Postgr Es Queue El - [an,the] other database server
[it's "settled science" - heh {me ducks from flying tomatoes}]
> So if I understand right it's illegal to call your business Oracle-anything? Even if it's not even remotely related to that red business and the stuff they flog? This is why lawyers and lawmakers should be beaten up regularly.
I feel the urge to register some new business names just to see Oracle's lawyers argue with a straight face that clients might be confused:
The Always On-Time and Within Budget Oracle Project Co.
and
L'Oracle - Because You're Worthless
(not sure who would sue first on the last one!)
> if I understand right it's illegal to call your business Oracle-anything?
Generally speaking, trademarks usually cover a specific- if moderately broad- field, so that businesses working in completely different sectors not likely to be confused with each other can both hold a trademark for (different usages of) the same word.
That said, given the amount of pies Oracle have their fingers in, it's unlikely that anyone without a pre-existing use- and the ability to defend it- would be able to get away with using the name for anything remotely resembling computing or IT.
The world’s most popular programming language cannot even have a conference in its name."
Then popular programming language shouldn't have stolen something else name.
I hate oracle, and all that they stand for, but to name a language JavaScript when java is a thing is asking for trouble.
And it's not the same as saying "can't we have oracle-anything now?"
You'd have no problem with "java coffee" or "java destinations" if referring to coffee and the country, but you can't nick someone else's trademark in the same industry.
Downvote away!
> Go learn some history
Oh, be fair. That is almost 30 years of history to cover since the Mocha language was created. And when you look on Stackoverflow there is a load of guff, hiding the (boring and simple) answer.
You can't expect him to be able to wade through all that!
This post has been deleted by its author
> There's nothing there I didn't know already
And yet your first comment managed to got it wrong.
> Sod 30 years of history - seems you can't read a simple post
Damn, keep forgetting that these people *really* need to have it spelled out for them - without a /s marker on my previous comment, he was totally lost.
That excuse is on the same level as someone having to explain "it's a joke" when they say something only they find funny.
Now, with respect to the "these people" comment. Please enlighten me about the other people that are like me that you look down on.
Like the original poster, you are a condescending prick too.
> That excuse is on the same level as someone having to explain "it's a joke" when they say something only they find funny.
And yet you seem happy to distract from and avoid addressing the fact that you were clearly wrong when you accused Netscape of having "stolen" the Java/JavaScript name, when- as others pointed out- they licensed it with Sun's permission.
Whether or not *that* was a sensible decision on the part of either company is open to debate- safe to say in the light of thirty years of confusion and trademark issues that I think it *wasn't*- but it's a different issue regardless.
Regardless, if you want to be that abrasive and confontational about others' supposed shortcomings, don't expect to be cut any slack for your ignorance when you can't even get your own basic facts right.
I'm afraid I have to agree with the OP on this one. Even with Sun's blessing, calling a language JavaScript to create a false association with an existing language called Java is a terrible idea.
And seriously, can someone not create a company that does, say, predictions, and include the common English word "oracle" without getting sued? As heyrick pointed out, 2000+ years of prior art on that name!
> Go learn some history before accusing anyone of stealing anything.
Okay, I'm game.
Teach me some history.
That's not snark but an honest request.
I've honestly never completely understood why it should be named J*v*scr*pt in the first place. The similarities are, at best, superficial.
CurlyBraceScript would've been fine with me.
And, corporate bullying aside, why not just change the name? Why spend your time filing motions when you can be writing code?
What am I missing here?
________________
* Please don't sue me, *r*cl*.
> I've honestly never completely understood why it should be named J*v*scr*pt in the first place. The similarities are, at best, superficial.
The name was never meant to indicate that the two were similar as languages[1] but that they were intended to be "the pair of languages from which you choose to best fit your needs today", all thanks to the good graces of Sun. So if you wanted to write structured compiled code, choose Java (from Sun), if you wanted to whip up a quick bit of scriptish code, chose JavaScript (from Sun). Both[2] available in your friendly Web browser to enhance your Web pages. PS have we mentioned they are from Sun? Even though the scripting language was actually a one-man effort from someone inside Netscape (but please think of Sun) and took a while to be available anywhere other than inside Netscape (which could also run your Java Applets, thanks to Sun).
Nothing more than a piece of marketing.
Hence the copyrighting of both languages and all the foolishness that followed, with anyone silly enough not to want the Real Thing from Sun needing to call theirs something different (and don't you dare copy our API either, looking at you, Microsoft).
JavaScript was held more tightly than Java (ref the freeing up of the Java API, after lawsuits, and the introduction of other languages that target the JVM and interoperate with Java). So then Oracle got it as part of Sun and found they could still be bullish about the trademark on JavaScript...
Why not change the name? 'Cos then Oracle would lose a plaything.
Why don't the rest of us change it's name? Because nobody knows what ECMAScript is, but everyone has heard of JavaScript, can probably guess what JScript is supposed to be like - and all the source files have .js at the end.
Please feel free to campaign for ECMAScript.
[1] despite the way that JavaScript - rather, it's predecessor - had "curly braces, you know, like Java" slapped on top of it, to make it seem more familiar to Joe Programmer than it's cod-Lispish origins. As you rightly say, this gave it at best a superficial likeness to Java.
[2] quietly ignoring the original pitch for Java as "Write once, run everywhere"; at least until Java Applets waned and Java as a general-purpose language was rediscovered by those who really matter, i.e. the marketers. To the mild bemusement of the programmers who'd been actually involved in using it all the while.
PS I may have been spending too much time at that point talking to Sun and their sales people; by the way, have you heard of Sun? They have this great thing called Display Postscript and a little language called Java {eyes glaze over, exits mumbling "runs everywhere, tee hee, runs everywhere"}
Please elucidate.
Where are the "revisions," pray tell? The comment by that one in the corner does more or less align with my own recollection of the facts, but, admittedly, memories fade.
If Anonymous Coward is in possession of facts supporting a different narrative, I'd be happy to hear it.
I think that this AC may have escaped the advertising blitz that a certain company (famous for their pizza boxes) could push out at the time and has mistaken shell-shock for being a fanboy.
As I was trying to indicate, it could get a little - intense - as they tried to make sure you remembered their name (Helios, was it?).
Once you get on a mailing list...
> Why not change the name? 'Cos then Oracle would lose a plaything.
Isn't that the point? If the only thing binding J*v*Scr*pt to *r*cl* are the first four characters, then make the change.
If you're worried about all those .js suffixes, just call the thing JS.
It's not as if this would be the first instance where a project changed its name -- LibreOffice, which used to be StarOffice1, if memory serves, comes to mind. Certainly not of the same magnitude, let along magnitude of magnitude as the language at hand but still, not impossible.
But I will leave that to wiser heads than mine and be on my way.
> [2] quietly ignoring the original pitch for Java as "Write once, run everywhere"; at least until Java Applets waned and Java as a general-purpose language was rediscovered by those who really matter, i.e. the marketers.
Oh, the pain. The pain. I spent wasted a couple of years laboring under that delusion (not by choice, mind you).
I wrote an applet that couldn't even run on two machines bought at the same time and (purportedly) running the same operating system without a huge amount of configuration fiddling that proved to be fantastically fragile. Finally gave up and rewrote the entire mess in C, which is what I should have done to begin with.
But that's another story for another time.
________________
1 See StarOffice
> Isn't that the point? If the only thing binding J*v*Scr*pt to *r*cl* are the first four characters, then make the change.
I'm with you there (see a.n.other comment above or below this, depending on your sort order).
But even if we convert all of El Reg to a more sensible name, we are but a few souls, brave and true, wading out onto the sands, swords held high or clattered against our yellow-hued shields, as we chase back the waters that recede before us. But they return with the moonlight, covering the beach with detritus dropped by the hordes of The Great Unwashed, who have heard The Full Name of The Beast and chant it endlessly (even if only to curse it for miring their surfing in the mud).
Ah, forgive the despairing words of a tired old warrior - I was sore wounded in the C-Hash skirmishes. Come, we shall raise again the Red Banner Of Five and drape it over our pages to hide what in truth lies there.
About 10 years ago I started using C#/.Net under the assumption that I'd be under the oppressive profit driven rule of M$. It's what my employer at the time was using so I had no say anyways and at least C# was a delight to code with.
Never would've thought 10 years later that C#/.Net would be truly open source and Java would be a garbage, atrophied language with a greedy heavily licensed ecosystem.
Interesting times.
Wow, ignorant much?
Java has bugger all to do with JavaScript - the similar names are down to a deal Sun Microsystems did with Netscape.
As for C#, it was a Java clone after Microsoft's Visual J++ fork of Java hit the buffers. To be fair to Microsoft, it gained some good features (and some terrible ones - the Active Record anti-pattern for starters), but ultimately made Sun and then Oracle up their game.
So you stick to your language and environment that is still essentially a Windows only thing once you get beyond the basics. Me, I'll stick to a fully featured stack of Java and Spring Boot that I can run on an operating system that isn't a sack of shit.
Wow, ignorant much?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.NET
"The .NET platform (pronounced as "dot net") is a free and open-source, managed computer software framework for Windows, Linux, and macOS operating systems. The project is mainly developed by Microsoft employees by way of the .NET Foundation and is released under an MIT License."
The .NET platform (pronounced as "dot net" "Boatload of CRAP")
fixed it for ya. The open source stuff, last I checked, is STILL called "mono". Like the disease.
For ME, there was never MORE DISAPPOINTMENT regarding Linux and open source than that one version of Debian that SUDDENLY included that ONE SINGLE Gnome 2 application "Tomboy" which hauled in a GARGANTUAN NUMBER of Mono shared lib packages JUST to run "Tomboy". I was livid and broke the meta-package dependencies by FORCIBLY UNINSTALLING all of that! Tomboy later was excluded from the meta package, so Debian package maintainers "got it".
Given that they are two totally different things and two totally different nouns, how is Oracle still pursuing this? If I launched ‘bonkers’ and someone else launched ‘bonkersText’ would I complain? No - it’s a different noun. No one shorthands ‘JavaScript’ as ‘Java’ because that’s not what it is. They shorten it to ‘js’, coz it isn’t Java.
Why not just drop part of the name?
It's not Java, so let's drop "JavaScript." Call it something else (not ECMAScript—who came up with that name?) and avoid any unnecessary association with Oracle.
It wouldn't take long for us as developers to get used to calling it something new.
If he wins, that would be cool, but still—let's not give any more attention to the big red Death Star.
> ECMAScript—who came up with that name?
Everybody in the standardisation group that wrote the relevant draft for ECMA, when Daddy Netscape and Mummy Microsoft wouldn't stop squabbling. It was the worst choice and therefore equally repugnant to everyone, with no favouritism.
> It wouldn't take long for us as developers to get used to calling it something new
Well, everybody has been making the same complaints about the name for some three decades and haven't managed ant better yet.
But, please do give your best shot and we'll see if we can make it stick (maybe just on El Reg for a start - so something appealling to commentards - but then we can annex Stack overflow and after that, THE WORLD![1]
[1] sorry, sorry, just caught a touch of the old Oracles there
Do a simple google search of javascript - all the first few matches are text like "What is JavaScript? JavaScript is the programming language of the web." and not a TM or ® in sight.
How to prove? go to any large tech conference, randomly poll 200 people with 3 questions:
- do you know what javascript refers to?
- who owns or controls javascript?
- are you aware that it is a trademark?
I'd be shocked if Oracle was mentioned in even 5% of the answers to the first 2 questions, and if more than 20% said yes, nevermind mentioning Oracle, to the third I'd be tempted to just give up.
perhaps a nuanced ruling might be that "JavaScript" (upper case J & S) is an Oracle-owned trademark, but "javascript" and "js" are generic terms (and hence not trademarkable)
The Register 
Biting the hand that feeds IT
Copyright. All rights reserved © 1998–2025
