back to article Why users still couldn't care less about Windows 11

Users are still steering clear of Windows 11, with some customers describing the sales pitch as "like trying to sell sand at a beach." It's an amusing take on the situation, but despite last month's figures showing a slight uptick in Windows 11's market share, only the most die-hard Microsoft apologist would insist that the …

  1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

    There is no reason for Windows 11

    There is nothing there that couldn't be patched into the supposedly last ever version, except that the Board needs to see its pile of cash increasing and has imagined these totally artificial excuses to enforce it.

    The problem is that Redmond is not a government, and users will see their own interests before the Boards' desire to acquire yet more money.

    1. lsces

      Re: There is no reason for Windows 11

      And if the machine that is running Windows 10 can't be upgraded to 11 then I'm not going to change it. Heck my CNC machines still run Windows XP via a real parallel port and they work fine for that job. I'll just take the W10 machine of the internet and all the problems are solved :) The main desktop machine has been Linux for years.

      1. NoneSuch Silver badge
        Go

        Re: There is no reason for Windows 11

        Testify Brother. Testify....

        MS Marketing wanting me to upgrade is not a reason to upgrade.

        1. bemusedHorseman
          Big Brother

          Re: There is no reason for Windows 11

          Arguably, a marketing team telling you at gunpoint to upgrade, is itself a reason not to upgrade.

      2. Ropewash

        Re: There is no reason for Windows 11

        Ditto for the production machinery. I'm not about to suggest a modern OS upgrade for something that has ISA cards. They run just fine, have been running for decades and will never be upgraded until they finally expire from old age.

        1. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: There is no reason for Windows 11

          "I'm not about to suggest a modern OS upgrade for something that has ISA cards"

          I've been keeping an eye out for a couple of old boxes with an ISA slot. I have an audio testing rig with ISA cards that works great and I want to keep. I just worry about the computer going poof.

    2. The Man Who Fell To Earth Silver badge
      Alert

      Re: There is no reason for Windows 11

      I think the hardware issue is underplayed in this article.

      I have Windows 10 machines to maintain that are almost 10 years old and are 100% fit-for-purpose. Like a lot of businesses, they will not be replaced proactively. The days of simply replacing on a cycle are gone in a lot of organizations. It's vastly less expensive to replace when there's a legitimate need. If the original population of machines was limited to a few models, the increased maintenance issue is small even with an aging PC population of legacy PC's. Right now, where I work, the bean counters are trying to decide whether to pay Microsoft's extortion extended support fee, or go with something like 0patch from the get-go. Most likely, we'll pay Microsoft until that option disappears (so we have the most up-to-date "real" patches), then go 0patch (or equivalent) until the population of legacy PCs is is so low it does make sense to just replace them in one swoop.

      What's not on the table is replacing perfectly fit-for-purpose hardware anytime soon.

      1. Mark #255

        Re: There is no reason for Windows 11

        We have half a dozen rugged Dell laptops (carry handle, corner protection, and IP-enough to survive an English shower), from around 2017. They're all still perfectly functional, but only one is young enough to meet Win11 requirements.

        I can't see the request to spend ~£10k replacing the five older ones going down well...

        1. RockBurner

          Re: There is no reason for Windows 11

          "... IP-enough to survive an English shower."

          Is there an IP level that high??

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: There is no reason for Windows 11

            > "... IP-enough to survive an English shower."

            > Is there an IP level that high??

            Depends on whether the reference is to the rain or a typical English bathroom. :-)

          2. MyffyW Silver badge

            Re: There is no reason for Windows 11

            I was left wondering what deviancy an English shower alluded to. Sounds intriguingly rude.

      2. hoola Silver badge

        Re: There is no reason for Windows 11

        One can also argue that if the hardware is running reliably then paying the charge levied by Microsoft for Windows 10 support is good value.

        The issue arises if you have a specific requirement for Windows 10 regardless of the hardware platform. Things that have embedded OS or dedicated attached PCs for instruments spring to mind. On the other hand when I have been involved with devices that are used like this they are often not patched anyway due to the risk of it stuffing everything up.

        Whether the networking access and user access are appropriate for a device in this use case is another matter.

      3. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: There is no reason for Windows 11

        "he bean counters are trying to decide whether to pay Microsoft's extortion extended support fee, or go with something like 0patch from the get-go."

        A secondary option might be to set up a network that walls off sets of computers from the outside world in a way that insulates them better. The only "Windows" machine that I have seeing the internet is a virtual machine on one of my Macs. The others don't go online. If my iMac goes away, I have a box running Linux Mint that screams with just a tiny mini PC I bought for a few bucks. I'm not impressed with Apple's latest hardware designs so until they come out with machines that can be upgraded again, I won't be buying any.

    3. Strahd Ivarius Silver badge

      Re: There is no reason for Windows 11

      And there is less an less reasons for Windows, when everything is nowadays running in a web browser...

      1. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: There is no reason for Windows 11

        Even if it's not in a browser, the part that matters is the application. If your computer runs the applications that you need then no reason to mess with it. The OS looking a bit different really isn't matter. I don't spend my productive days playing with an OS - I work in the the applications. I couldn't care less what OS as long as the computer does its job.

        1. David Hicklin Silver badge

          Re: There is no reason for Windows 11

          > I couldn't care less what OS as long as the computer does its job.

          The problem is that windows 10/11 are no longer as OS but more of an eco-system. The last OS was probably windows 2000.

      2. BuSab
        Holmes

        Re: There is no reason for Windows 11

        Recently my bank stopped allowing logins from my Windows PCs (both 10 and 11) without a phone call to verify identity. Only their mobile app works without friction. So I bought a mobile device for the apps that I previously ran on Win10. For me personally, there's little reason for Windows 10 or 11 now, except for work. Windows has become software for suits. Microsoft deliberately dropped mobile and took the road less traveled, but now they're wondering where everyone went? To paraphrase Jethro Tull, if their AI saves, it had better save itself.

        1. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: There is no reason for Windows 11

          "Only their mobile app works without friction."

          Lovely. That would be the point I switch banks. I don't have anything financial on my phone and never will. Any online banking, I do at home on a computer with up to date security and almost none of that. I still get paper statements to reconcile accounts each month and I haven't been off more than $5 for ages.

      3. This post has been deleted by its author

    4. TVU

      Re: There is no reason for Windows 11

      Tbh, what they should have done is continued with Windows 10 as a rolling release with necessary updates because Win 11 is just a pointless show pony change. Business and home users would probably be content with a rolling release model like that.

      1. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: There is no reason for Windows 11

        That's a whole other can of wriggly things. Browsers get modified all of the time with no notice which stuffs things up. It also means being online for much of those to work. Often times with an OS, there might be a beta version available for testing and individual users are often not going to "upgrade" their OS as they might a browser due to the complicated process a new OS install can be.

  2. Groo The Wanderer - A Canuck

    When Windows 10 dies, it's time to install a Linux distro of your choice instead for free, with no "hardware upgrades" likely to be required. I recommend Ubuntu...

    1. Mage Silver badge

      install a Linux distro of your choice

      And there is choice. Also you can install multiple desktop GUIs at minimal storage overhead.

      Of course if you have a mandated Windows Only payroll/accounts/stock etc, you need a VM. Some legacy 32 bit Windows SW actually run on WINE and not on 64 bit windows at all.

      1. Mage Silver badge

        Re: install a Linux distro of your choice

        Was given a Chromebook (Intel 64G Galaxy Go) since I wrote that; S/H not too old. (2023 original release, support till 2031).

        Easy now to enable Crostini, the cut-down Debian in a container called penguin. This is mostly for security? Access to underlying Gentoo Linux only in special ChromeBook developer mode.

        Was able to add LibreOffice, KATE, synaptic package manager, Chromium (but not Firefox), CUPS, printer config GUI, some libraries Calibre needed etc via sudo app install <whatever> and have SDcard available to Linux. Set the i386 ach for dpkg, and sudo app install WINE worked, VB6 apps that use OCX incompatible with any x4 Windows work (which is many). Even included Wordpad to test. I read there is a x86 32 bit emulator for ARM Linux that lets WINE work, but this is maybe sole advantage of Intel ChromeBook. The 11 hours rating is more like 5 or 6 hours.

        Used synaptic to install some Ham Radio SW.

        Added Android Vivaldi, Viber, HP42 calculator and others from Playstore. Some Playstore apps don't install (maybe native ARM?), others give an alternate ChromeOS version. If an Android app borks because you resized, it may work than restarted. Most are fine default Portrait or Landscape.

        If you are short of cash a Chromebook might be 1/2 price of a laptop that's too cheap. Forget ChromeOS Flex (no Playstore) on a generic laptop as Linux Mint is better.

        OK, so a current Chromebook can run variously:

        1. Native ChromeOS applications. (Likely Gentoo Linux, but might be google VM on Gentoo)

        2. Android, but sometimes Playstore offers only ChromeOS and some won't be available for Intel/AMD and some not for ARM.

        3. Linux applications and Crostini is based on Debian, so Ubuntu/Mint packages & scripts work.

        4: Windows x86 (32 bit) on WINE 32. There is an Emulator for WINE 32 that works OK on ARM. Inc VB6 programs that use OCX, which won't run on ANY 64bit Windows, Some 32 bit Win7 & Win10 may work. These often need a VM on Win10/11, but here can run native on Intel ChromeBook.

        5: Windows x64 (64 bit) on WINE 64. I didn't bother with this and compatibility is lower (up to win10 64 bit).

        6. Chrome Browser extensions.

        The builtin "Desktop" windows seem to be rendered by Chrome.

        Magic key presses at power on for true Chromebook developer mode erases all user data.

        I'm no fan of Google and ChromeOS / Chromebooks did start out as garbage.

        I do have XP era programs and VB6 programs for Engineering where there will never be a 64 bit version (because VB.net / C# can't do some things that VB6 can do, or the programmer is dead!).

        So Linux (Crostini / Debian), x86 Windows via WINE (no extra VM overhead of RAM), ChromeOS and multiple Android Windows copy/paste. Brother LAN printer via CUPs (separately on ChromeOS and Linux).

        So for me the Intel Chromebook is fine, Most people better off with the ARM version. All the important for most people Linux programs are also on ARM. I'll continue to use my Dell 7050 shoebox with 512G SSD and 4T HDD for everyday, but take the Chromebook instead of my 17" Linux laptop if going out.

        If you have a S/H Win10 laptop or even older 64 bit, or about €450 to buy a basic new laptop with no OS (Lenovo?), then a "real" laptop is best for Linux, but if REALLY cash strapped and buy a 512G SD card for user data and a HDD for backups (sata in USB 3.0 case), then a less than 2 year old Chromebook, or discounted new one can run most of what ordinary people want on Linux. The Linux programs mostly appear on the Launcher and easy to copy and edit a linux *.desktop file to add other Linux or WINE applications.

      2. Not Yb Bronze badge

        Re: install a Linux distro of your choice

        My elderly parents run an old version of Quicken that doesn't require so much internet access just to put up more ads, on Wine. It's probably been running fine for around 30 years now. "WINE Is Not an Emulator", indeed :-)

        1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

          Re: install a Linux distro of your choice

          So I assume that version of Quicken does not know about €. Oh well, depending on the location, if it knows pound (symbol does not exist ob my keyboard) and $ it might be enough.

    2. m4r35n357 Silver badge

      I recommend MX - if you are ditching Windoze there is no point shackling yourself to systemd instead!

      Ubuntu is encumbered by Snap/Flatpack/systemd & hates your widow decorations.

      1. Neil Barnes Silver badge
        Coat

        I hate it when people hate my widow decorations. I shall come back and haunt them.

        Ooh look, a white sheet... --->

        1. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
          Joke

          How many widows do you have hanging about as decorations.

          1. Lon24

            "We have a French widow in every bedroom affording delightful prospects."

            G Hoffnung

            1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

              Now I've got to listen to that lot again. Especially the barrel.

              1. Neil Barnes Silver badge

                "On my way down, I met the barrow coming up..."

                1. David 132 Silver badge
                  Thumb Up

                  “I was born aged two…”

                2. PeterM42
                  FAIL

                  Barrel

                  "I met the BARREL coming up!"

                  1. Neil Barnes Silver badge
                    Facepalm

                    Re: Barrel

                    Yeah, there's a few versions of that story floating around, and I conflated one with a barrow in place of the barrel. Sorry, I'll be good.

                    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

                      Re: Barrel

                      If you just rely on written versions you'll have missed half of it which was in the spoken delivery. The very mention of it takes me back to childhood, sitting round the Sunday dinner table listening to Family Favourites on the radio wireless.

    3. fb2k

      There's just way too much bloat in Ubuntu... I realized that only after I switched to Debian for my home server and Arch for my lightweight desktop.

      I really can't recommend Ubuntu any more.

      1. sabroni Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        This is why Windows 11 will eventually succeed

        You start looking at alternatives, get some good advice about which distro to use, then get some conflicting advice about why those distros are shit and you should use another, slightly more obscure one. Repeat until you get bored and just let the Windows update run.

        All that choice though, eh?

        1. theOtherJT Silver badge

          Re: This is why Windows 11 will eventually succeed

          This really is the biggest hurdle to mainstream Linux adoption. There is too much choice and when you don't really care about the details and just want to get on with running your applications then that's just... annoying.

          But I'm in agreement with the OP of this thread. Ubuntu. Sure, yes, there's a lot of "bloat" in that now, but there's a lot less than there is in Windows of any flavor released in the last decade, and all that stuff is in there just in case someone needs it and now it's one less thing to have to think about if they do. It's already there. In a world where it's easy to get overwhelmed by choice, I think that's the right decision from Canonical.

          Those of us who actually do care, or have some specific need for a smaller footprint, sure, ok. We can do the research. Ubuntu's the choice you make when you can't be bothered to - and there's nothing wrong with that.

          1. Nematode Bronze badge

            Disappointing

            I've enjoyed mucking about with Linux distros over the years, on my old W7 machines etc. Generally no problems but have never bitten the bullet since things like WINE haven't really been up to scratch, and I still have 15-off Windows-only apps with no Linux version, Linux equivalent, nor browser interface.

            I decided the other day to "finally" Linux our TV-attached Dell W7 laptop machine, to prepare SWMBO for when I need to move her to Linux as W10 dies. This W7 machine has taken Ubuntu, Lubuntu, Mint, Lite, and others over the years with nary a bother. Chose Mint 22.1 Xfce, pen drive boot to test. Firstly the Dell wireless mouse wouldn't work, then next day it did, so finally installed to the hard drive and ran into heaps of problems I've never seen before. Selecting a different geographical location broke the install sequence, then it got in a retry-fail-retry loop, then when I finally got it running, Grub wouldn't run, so I couldn't boot back into W7 again for a couple of things we still use. Also the mouse became intermittent. As anyone will know, finding solutions to Linux problems can be a nightmare. The fora were full of people with the same problems and no clear solution.

            Now, I know it's all fixable somehow, but I was pretty disappointed that it didn't "just work" and really don't feel like downloading several lots of GBs of different isos, Rufus-ing them, booting, installing, then Macrium-ing the laptop back again when I find the Linux falls short in some way, or worse, finding that what works on this W7 machine doesn't when I install on her HP laptop later this year.

        2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: This is why Windows 11 will eventually succeed

          Repeat until you get bored and just let the Windows update runfail.

          FTFY

          I suppose the big difference with Linux is that the choices are available in parallel and the user makes them whereas with Windows they're sequential and Microsoft's marketroids make them.

        3. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: This is why Windows 11 will eventually succeed

          "You start looking at alternatives, get some good advice about which distro to use, then get some conflicting advice about why those distros are shit and you should use another, slightly more obscure one."

          The problem is asking some power user about which distro who has no clue about what an average chap does on a computer. I know Mint isn't perfect, but I find it plenty fast with an interface I can deal with. I'm not a terminal window jockey that's thinking in CLI as they type in 200wpm spurts. I know people like that and don't ask them for advice on what distro I should use. The cases are completely different.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: This is why Windows 11 will eventually succeed

            Gentoo for everyone!!! Learn how build software breaks other software for fun and non-profit.

      2. SundogUK Silver badge

        Nobody cares.

        1. LBJsPNS Bronze badge

          Take your fingers out of your mouth.

    4. jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid Silver badge

      "When Windows 10 dies"

      Nothing to stop one bringing forward that happy event. What wait?

      I did that myself ages ago, simply because I didn't want to wait until Windows 10 was unavailable and I was forced into a Linux learning curve not on my timescales. My computer is still dual boot, but I haven't booted it into Windows ever since. There is one task I keep meaning to use Windows for, but it's been months and I still haven't done it so I guess it's not that important.

    5. 0laf Silver badge

      Indeed but his is beyond the majority of most W10 users who will either use W10 insecurely until it is pwned or will listen to marketing and buy a new computer.

    6. Cloudseer

      Unfortunately some orgaan need manager devices and Linux says no on that.

  3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    "IT departments must press the upgrade button rather than pay exorbitant fees for extended support,"

    What are the actual of cost of ongoing support compared with buying new H/W to replace kit which is functioning quite satisfactorily? I'm sure MS would prefer to keep what in effect becomes a subscription going as opposed to the one-off price of a W11 "perpetual" licence and will price it accordingly. They win, customers lose a bit, MS's old H/W buddies lose substantially. Once the subscription habit is ingrained W12 can become subscription only.

    1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

      Such pushy sales tactics suggest that maybe Microsoft has cashflow problems and maybe their books are not what they really are.

      If I was a shareholder, I'd have a serious look at my portfolio.

      1. AMBxx Silver badge
        Holmes

        All that matters to MS now is Office 365 subscriptions and Azure. The rest is just historical baggage.

        1. Strahd Ivarius Silver badge

          Not even Office, now it is Copilot...

        2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Nope, it's all grist to the mill. Do you really think the Windows division doesn't have sales targets?

      2. hx

        They do seem like a failed, desperate company

        Upgrade OR ELSE. Use our AI that costs so much money we had to raise prices on things you want to subsidize it and discountinue other services you actually use. Please clap.

        1. SundogUK Silver badge

          Re: They do seem like a failed, desperate company

          Microsoft's share price has gone from @ $150 in 2020 to $350 today. (There was a bit of a trough in 2023) This is not a failed, desperate company.

          1. David Hicklin Silver badge

            Re: They do seem like a failed, desperate company

            > Microsoft's share price has gone from @ $150 in 2020 to $350 today. (There was a bit of a trough in 2023) This is not a failed, desperate company.

            which is down to market sentiments and bears no reality to how the company is really performing or how much then are worth eg Tesla

      3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Don't underestimate greed. OTOH you may be right. Take a look at what's being swallowed up feeding OpenAI. OTOH again there'll be bonuses tied to overall profits.

      4. Felonmarmer

        Could be, but American companies are also forced to grab up any cent they can get their grubby hands on by the shareholders.

    2. bish

      Sweet summer child…

      “What are the actual of cost of ongoing support compared with buying new H/W to replace kit which is functioning quite satisfactorily? I'm sure MS would prefer to keep what in effect becomes a subscription going as opposed to the one-off price of a W11 "perpetual" licence and will price it accordingly.”

      Consumer price is $30 for the first year. Businesses pay $61. Educational customers $1. But it doubles each year, and so far MS are insisting that the ESU will only run for three years, so that means $210/$427/$7* per PC over the three years PLUS the cost of then buying new hardware (with a nice new MS license bundled in - hear those Redmond cash registers sing!) if they decide to stay aboard the Microsoft train.

      A comparison with switching to new hardware right away obviously depends a lot on what’s being dumped and what’s bought, along with complicated formulae for amortisation and other financial things I don’t fully understand, but the bottom line is that whatever you’d like to imagine about Microsoft’s benevolent customer-first approach simply ain’t true: depending on how sympathetic you are to their need to extract cash to fund extended patch support this is at best them speaking softly and carrying a very, very large gun, and at worst, a shameless shake down of people who very likely have not upgraded their hardware because they cannot afford to.

      *don’t laugh at that last one - many schools will have a few hundred PCs and extremely limited budgets.

      1. Richard 12 Silver badge

        Re: Sweet summer child…

        The majority just ... won't.

        For most people 'support' means being forced to reboot their computer at an inconvenient time. They'll be happy if that stops, and as normal people do not watch for CVEs, they'll never know the difference.

        There's a lot of Windows 7 machines that are still online. With an adblocker and Firefox they're probably pretty safe. (Chrome doesn't support either of those things)

        Many businesses will also take that route, even assuming that Microsoft will be forced to patch anything egregious anyway - as they have done before.

        1. sabroni Silver badge

          Re: Chrome doesn't support either of those things

          Chrome doesn't support Firefox? The bastards!!!

        2. Cliffwilliams44 Silver badge

          Re: Sweet summer child…

          Yes, they will!

          Where the big money lies, in large corporations, the hardware refresh and the move to W-11 will just happen. They are not going to take the risk, perceived or real, to not do it! In today's world you cannot stay on unsupported hardware/OS/Software. If you want cyber insurance you have to upgrade, if you do government work (yes, I know it's an oxymoron that the government uses all kinds of outdated kit and software , but they require you to be up to date) you have to upgrade, If you need CISA certification (in the US) you have to upgrade.

          MS knows this, the hardware makers know this. Why it has not already happened is because the deadline isn't near enough, it's always the last minute rush, but it WILL get done!

      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Sweet summer child with reading comprehension issues…

        "whatever you’d like to imagine about Microsoft’s benevolent customer-first approach simply ain’t true"

        I have no imagination whatsoever about the existence of Microsoft's customer care let alone its benevolence.

        It's simply that Microsoft have worked out a means of making more money vs making money:

        You're OK with renewing H/W - fine, we (get the H/W vendor to) sell you a licence for W11 which brings in the price of an OEM.

        Or

        You're not OK with that? Here's a deal whereby you don't have to. You just pay us more each year for ongoing support. We'll keep the price less than you'd spend on the H/W upgrades. We make more than we would have made by indirectly selling you a new licence at OEM rates.

  4. elsergiovolador Silver badge

    Pop ups

    I had full screen pop ups advertising Windows 11 out of nowhere.

    Even more reasons to not upgrade.

    Seems like thickos work in Microsoft.

    1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

      Re: Pop ups

      "work" may be over-egging it a bit...

      1. Richard 12 Silver badge

        Re: Pop ups

        I get the same, despite their arbitrary decision not to support my hardware.

        Clearly arbitrary because it was still on sale from "reputable" suppliers like Dell for about six months to a year after Windows 11 shipped.

        Even more clearly because it apparently does run it just fine if you disable the check. I'm not going to bother doing that though.

    2. sabroni Silver badge
      Happy

      Re: Seems like thickos work in Microsoft.

      Ooh, that's an interesting point. I think most of them might also be smelly poo heads.

      You got 50 upvotes for that (at time of posting).

      Standards have fucking plummetted around here!

  5. Steve Kerr

    Currently have a work laptop on windows 11 and home desktop is windows and laptop is Linux.

    So many things annoying in windows 11, it's a mess, I prefer to have the taskbar on the side yet some arbitrary decision by microsoft to not allow that move because "we can't give users choice" is so annoying. I'm sure since windows 95 you could move the taskbar to where you want and NOW they've decided you can't?

    So - at end of life for Win 10, my desktop will remain on Win 10 for the foreseeable future because, sod them.

    1. Someone Else Silver badge

      I prefer to have the taskbar on the side yet some arbitrary decision by microsoft to not allow that move because "we can't give users choice" is so annoying.

      Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately (and accurately) ascribed to incompetence.

      It is becoming increasingly clear that the ADHD-addled shiny-pushers at Micros~1 really don't know how to make the taskbar dockable at the users' desired location. I mean, these muddlebutts can't even figure out how to restore a window to the same size and location it was last at; and you expect them to be able to figure out dockability? Shirley, etc.

      1. gv
        Flame

        "Missing UI features such as taskbar positioning irritated users"

        1. jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid Silver badge

          I wish the taskbar on windows 10 would obey the "hide taskbar" option even when a needy and emotionally insecure app has a notification and shouts "look at me, look at me, me me me!". If any app is in full screen mode, then the taskbar covers the app's controls. And where are the controls for word, excel etc? All round every edge so there's nowhere to put the taskbar out of the way.

          And before anyone suggests not using Microsoft Office, this is my corporate kit that I have no control over.

      2. Dave K

        Well they managed it back in 1995 OK. To be honest I just think it's laziness from Microsoft. Their telemetry will tell them that only 1% of users move the task bar (for example), so they can't be bothered to put the effort in to add the functionality back. They're too busy banging the Copilot drum instead, or thinking where else in the OS they can add some OneDrive adverts...

        1. Mark #255

          Presumably people who want to rearrange the taskbar sit almost completely in the Venn circle of people who have switched off telemetry...

        2. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

          The Telemetry is skewed. They only get stats from basic users. Advanced users turn it off. Companies turn it off. The feedback hub is closer to the reality, albeit less used now since MS ignores most of it.

          1. DJ
            Meh

            Elaborate?

            "The Telemetry is skewed. They only get stats from basic users. Advanced users turn it off...."

            Really?

            How?

            1. localgeek

              Re: Elaborate?

              There's more than one tool out there, but the best one I've found for the purpose is ShutUp10. It lets you disable a long list of unwanted "features," including telemetry. It's the first thing I install on any new Windows build.

            2. sabroni Silver badge

              Re: Elaborate?

              Get a pi-hole, that black-holes a load of MS endpoints. Couldn't say for sure it gets them all mind but if you've got more than one windows device it's a good way of fixing it at the network level. You can always add custom urls if you see telemetry is still getting through.

              1. David Hicklin Silver badge

                Re: Elaborate?

                > Get a pi-hole, that black-holes a load of MS endpoints

                Looks like it get the adverts as well as I am yet to see one in any of my windows 10 machines

          2. Roland6 Silver badge

            Agree the telemetry is skewed.

            With previous versions of windows, on initial receipt, users basically arranged the desktop how they wanted and got on with work. Ie.it doesn’t get moved again.

            With MS firstly fixing the window furniture then making the toolbar display best in landscape rather than portrait etc. many people now simply leave things are they a come out of the box - just what MS wanted. Hence the telemetry is most probably giving a skewed view: people aren’t constantly messing around with the taskbar so no need to maintain the tools to enable it to be altered…

      3. Strahd Ivarius Silver badge
        Devil

        I am pretty sure they are waiting for Apple to "invent" the option to dock the dock on any side of the screen before activating that feature in Windows 12.

        1. elbisivni

          Heh. I think they might be being a bit tardy in that case - OS X has allowed left or right positioning for many years.

      4. Michael Strorm Silver badge

        > the ADHD-addled shiny-pushers at Micros~1 really don't know how to make the taskbar dockable at the users' desired location

        My guess would be that the culture and management within MS is such that there is far more incentive- in terms of visibility and career advancement- for programmers and team leaders to work on shiny new features than there is to work on maintenance and improvement of existing features.

        If you know that you're going to end up stuck in a maintenance backwater, more likely to be forgotten about or passed over for promotion for those who helped create management-favoured big-name projects which they can point to and slap on their CV if they decide to leave the company.... that's a pretty big motivation working against the former.

        That, ultimately, would be a top-down problem and failure of upper-level management- it's not the peons' responsibility to sacrifice their own interests to work on something those above them consider less important.

        Of course, this is also driven by the fact that marketing themselves prefer to have shiny new gimmicks features- and change-for-the-sake-of-change masquerading as innovation- which are more in-your-face selling points and excuses to upgrade compared to mundane stuff like properly-dockable taskbars, even if that's what the end users want.

    2. bcb2060

      My SO told me that her work computer is being upgraded to W11 this week, and so that I can provide ongoing support I removed the registry hacks that were stopping the W11 upgrade on my last remaining Windows computer. The first thing I saw in the new W11 interface was I'd lost my customized toolbars from the taskbar (just folders of links, but I use them *all* the time). After a little searching online, I discovered this feature is gone in W11, only to be reinstated by installing 3rd party cruft on top. So Microsoft/Windows has sealed its fate as far as I'm concerned. If I'm going to have to tweak my workflows and shortcuts, then I'll do it in Debian/Cinnamon, not in W11. My wife will have to ask her work's desktop service desk team for help from now on...

      1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

        My wife will have to ask her work's desktop service desk team for help from now on...

        That is their job. I've long ago learned to leave problems where they belong. Work problems belong at work, not at home.

    3. 0laf Silver badge

      Oh yes. Everyone uses widescreen or ultrawide now, but MS won't allow the toolbar to the side.

      That teh the constanda changing of icons, or standard locations for age old tasks.

      Messed up or missing context menus.

      Switching taks that have been right click forever to left click (spell check).

      Having these changes vary between versions of apps that you have to use that MS dual installs (Teams / Teams Classic) or just come and go with patches randomly.

      If they don't give a toss about the basics then for sure under the surface the critical elements are held together with wet string

    4. Nick Ryan

      Interesting the original design for the Windows 95 start menu was for it to be at the top of the screen. Doing so makes a lot of sense because suddenly the shutdown computer option is the last item in the menu and not the first.

      However, at some point in time, likely very close to release, the crayon eating department at Microsoft decided that the taskbar should be at the bottom of the screen. From that point on we had a backwards menu list.

      1. Someone Else Silver badge
        Coffee/keyboard

        the crayon eating department at Microsoft [...]

        Look what you went and made me did! - - - - ->

      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Before W95 arrived a lot of us were using things like CDE which had pop-up menus from gadgets which were by default at the bottom of the screens and also put icons for minimised applications at the bottom of the screen. Following that precedent was a sensible thing to do. They could, however, have put the shutdown option anywhere in the list or even given you the option of where to locate it.

        Oddly enough I've never found having the power sub-menu there to be a problem. I suppose it's because I instinctively whizz the cursor half way up the list because the most useful options on my menu are there. The real issue I have with the W95 GUI design was moving the close application function from the system menu - the icon at the left of the title bar to the right hand end. That's partly an issue because the system menu was common to Windows & CDE but also because it was - and still is - easy to hit by accident in place of the minimise and maximise buttons which mattered because most applications assumed you wouldn't hade closed down unless you meant it and didn't offer a chance to save work.

        1. Nick Ryan

          Microsoft could have, but they didn't. Instead we got handed a shell interface which was designed to have the menus at the top of the screen and not at the bottom as they were set as default when launched.

          Menu items are ordered in an approximation of their importance - Programs, Documents, and then other crap :) such as Settings, Find, Help, Run and then, finally with a separator, the shutdown option. In reverse the most important becomes shutdown and one has to go further past this to get to anything useful, past the spacer separating it from the other options.

          If you can find a safe version to have a play with, move the task bar to the top and suddenly the menu makes sense and works a lot better too.

          For example, the "Programs >" entry is now at the top and when using it is a lot more usable. When it is at the bottom of the screen as soon as one has more than (approximately) 10 items the sub-menu has to open part of the way through and therefore the mouse has to start in the middle, which is also inconsistent with the keyboard navigation of the menu which starts at the top. The more items in the Programs menu the worse this became. This same happens for Documents and even Settings.

          There are technical excuses as to why the task bar was moved to the bottom of the screen and these relate to some applications written for Windows 3.x assuming that 0,0 was the top left corner of the screen. This should never have been an issue because the Windows API could just perform a vertical translation of coordinates and in any case such a poorly written application would have just been obscured at the bottom of the screen instead. The follow-on workaround for this lack of fixing things properly was the auto-hiding task bar (a horror for many reasons).

  6. PCScreenOnly

    overkill

    Most older PC's within the last 10 years will be overkill for most people, especially as so much is performed online or in a browser, so the reason to upgrade your hardware is decreasing, so why bother. Because MS want you to get a new machine with this, that and the other to run W11 ?

    Older PC's you could often go from 4GB to 8GB to 16GB RAM and get a good boost, better still, upgrade that old lump of spinning rust for a nice new SSD and boy, was that effective. Nothing to do with the OS, a cheap upgrade that got you a boost, and you may dabble in that new fangled W7/8/10.

    So the outlay of some pennies above to moderate to incremental upgrades vs the cost of a new machine to run W11. MS have missed the target.

    Of course, they can remove those dumb restrictions and get their market share, but what about the poor hardware vendors ?

    Oh, and MS need to really pull or fix 24H2. It is an absolute dog...... unless that is their next plan to appease hardware vendors, though it may drive more users away

    1. ICL1900-G3 Silver badge

      Re: overkill

      Yep...my main desktop is around 14 now and does all I need to do. It seems slow next to my 5 year old laptop, but slow is relative. Certainly a lot faster than 'my' first computer, a 360/30.

    2. Yankee Doodle Doofus Bronze badge

      Re: overkill

      < "Oh, and MS need to really pull or fix 24H2."

      I've not heard good things, but have yet to test it. The last few years at my org we do feature updates in May or June, once they've been able to cook a bit longer. What issues have you encountered with 24H2? If it's actually that bad, we may skip this one.

      1. Mr Army

        Re: overkill

        My laptop upgraded to Win 11 24H2, instant black screen of death with only cursor movement and task manager. Managed to restore it. A month later it upgraded itself again, exactly the same black screen problem, however this time there was no longer a restore point to go back to. After wasting a couple of days trying every solution I could find I had no option but to go for a complete reinstall.

        After the reinstall I imediately upgraded the graphics drivers - the most likely reason for the failureof the upgrade - and then forced the 24H2 upgrade to ensure it would keep working before starting to reinstall all the apps I need, It is definately a bad one.

      2. PCScreenOnly

        Re: overkill

        Just so slow, and I mean painfully slow, like I've dropped to 4gb ram and a 5400 spinner slow

        Is was a fresh build, nothing on it

        Same ssd with 23h2 is ok

        Seen someone suggest resetting the bios and/or the power schemes

        I have put 23h2 on so it was too late to test

    3. Ianab

      Re: overkill

      My daily driver is a Sandy Bridge era Xeon, 2 x 6 core CPUs, SSD system drive, 64gb of RAM. Basically cheap Chinese sourced E-waste. Mint is my OS of choice because it drives like Windows, so no problem switching to a Windows machine for support jobs. It does everything I need, and of course I could spin up a pretty decent Windows VM if I needed (but I don't).

      We are scheduling to replace some client PCs this year. 8th gen i5s, 8 gb ram and SSDs. Still very capable machines for what they do (local Office / Email and a remote cloud desktop). They have been written down on the books by now, so the upgrade isn't a big deal, just it's not needed for any "technical" reason. Without the artificial end of Win10 support they would run for several more years.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: overkill

        "They have been written down on the books by now, so the upgrade isn't a big deal,"

        It's still money that could have been used for something else.

    4. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: overkill

      "So the outlay of some pennies above to moderate to incremental upgrades vs the cost of a new machine to run W11. MS have missed the target."

      What target do you think they missed?

      How much do they make from a free upgrade?

      Now try again: what target do you think they missed?

  7. OSYSTEM
    Windows

    Reasons to upgrade from NT

    The only functional reasons to upgrade Windows I've seen are:

    - better TCP/IP support in NT 3.5 (if i remember)

    - Active Directory, LDAP and GPO

    - 64-bit applications

    - WSL2 (although one can argue that the previous Posix interface (services for Unix - SFU) should have been extended and improved instead.

  8. Luiz Abdala
    Trollface

    They said Windows 10 would be the last Windows. No further "Windowses" would exist.

    It still is, to me.

    Again, if MS gives me a budget to buy new compatible hardware, I will gladly upgrade.

    Only when Steam stops being compatible, I will think of it.

    1. williamyf Bronze badge

      Re: They said Windows 10 would be the last Windows. No further "Windowses" would exist.

      Steam (and Epic) compatibility will depend on Google, as both are electron apps and use chromium under the hood.

      Let's see how long google supports chrome on a dwindling base of "legitimate ESU" + "semipirated ESU" + 0patch (if they even acknowledge 0patch) + ltsc 2019 + IoT 2021 + server 2022.

      yeah, a very complicated support matrix for all the Win10 codebase...

      1. Richard 12 Silver badge

        Re: They said Windows 10 would be the last Windows. No further "Windowses" would exist.

        Chrome will support Windows 10 until at least 2032 when Win 10 IoT support ends.

        Aside from that, API-wise there's nothing of note new in Win 11. They even make a big deal of that in the IoT edition blurb.

        Not the case for Win 7->10 - tbh schannel alone is likely the reason for that change.

    2. Luiz Abdala
      Headmaster

      Re: They said Windows 10 would be the last Windows. No further "Windowses" would exist.

      (PS) I know Jerry Nixon said this, not being a PR for Microsoft, but still.

      Preemptive self-correction.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Why change?

    > The problem is that there is no killer Windows 11 feature to drive the majority of users to upgrade other than "a way to keep the patches flowing."

    Many see the problem is that Win11 is pointlessly rearranging the furniture and breaking things people use. Normal users like things that don't change constantly. They don't care about Windows. They just want to turn on a computer, go online, write a letter to the council, and use the internet.

    Now they are also nobbling M365 subscription by forcing a huge price hike to include unwanted AI features I can see less and less reason to keep people on the system.

    If Microsoft want to force a GUI change on someone then might as well move to somewhere totally new like Mint.

    Or stick with Win10 precisely because Microsoft will stop messing with it after October. Keep AV active and updating the web browser and it covers most people's actual security issues.

    Serious question - for a home user today how insecure is Win7? I'm not saying go back to that, I am just not seeing a need for people to leave Win10 behind in the next few years.

    1. FatGerman

      Re: Why change?

      >> Or stick with Win10 precisely because Microsoft will stop messing with it after October. Keep AV active and updating the web browser and it covers most people's actual security issues.

      This precisely. No more random reboots while it's doing things. No more support calls from my elderly parents because something has moved. Superb. Keep this up and my Dad might finally master using the thing on his own.

    2. toejam++

      Re: Why change?

      > Many see the problem is that Win11 is pointlessly rearranging the furniture and breaking things people use

      This is precisely why I downgraded my new laptop from Windows 11 to 10. They introduced numerous changes to the UI and settings control, but the changes just made things worse. Annoyingly, there was no way to choose an older theme, as you could sorta do with XP thru W7.

      I tried some third party utilities that restored aspects of Windows 10, but the constant upgrades constantly broke them. I've never seen Windows updates break such apps so often before Windows 11, so I took that as a bad sign.

      1. David 132 Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        Re: Why change?

        > Many see the problem is that Win11 is pointlessly rearranging the furniture and breaking things people use

        I first read the comment below back at the time of the Windows 8 launch - it remains topical. I wish I could remember who first wrote it to give them fair credit!

        "What we wanted, Microsoft, was familiar ways to do unfamiliar things. What you've given us is unfamiliar ways to do familiar things."

    3. Luiz Abdala
      Terminator

      Re: Why change?

      MS tried to pull the microsoft email login once, instead of a local domain, on one of these ill-fated W10 updates.

      W11 is next to impossible to use local domain logins, you have to physically unplug the PC on setup or worse.

      One more reason to stay behind.

    4. PRR Silver badge

      Re: Why change?

      > for a home user today how insecure is Win7?

      Works for me. Windows 7 Home Premium I have ZeroPatch installed and it did stuff recently.

      The only "malware" I see in this house is the Win10 and Win11 machines and their near-insistance on non-local accounts and constant spying. So far I think the stolen data is too much for MS/anybody to absorb, it just goes into Bing to try to fool me it knows something.

      1. SundogUK Silver badge

        Re: Why change?

        I upgraded a new PC from 10 to Seven but had endless hardware issues - mainly with USB drivers. I gave up for the next PC and to be fair, 10 hasn't been dreadful. Bought a Windows 11 laptop last year, for a specific purpose. Suffice it to say the next main PC will run Ubuntu.

      2. David Hicklin Silver badge

        Re: Why change?

        > Works for me. Windows 7 Home Premium I have ZeroPatch installed and it did stuff recently.

        > The only "malware" I see in this house is the Win10 and Win11 machines

        Same here as I type on my win7 machine, all win 10's have ShutUp10 applied and are all local accounts.

        Only "malware" the ms defender ever found on win7 are my own programs so I even ditched that!

    5. Adelio

      Re: Why change?

      I am still using outlook 2007. (I just like the interface and it works fine)

      For Excel/Word i now use LibreOffice. I do not use any other Microsoft cruff.

      1. NogginTheNog

        Re: Why change?

        Office/Outlook 2013 here. I've looked at buying an upgrade (2021 is cheap in eBay) but well this just works fine so..?

      2. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: Why change?

        A little surprised it is still working. I used Outlook 2007 until circa 2020, when my (independent) email provider upgraded the security of their mail servers, to security protocols not supported by Outlook 2007, so migrated to 2019. Whilst it works, I dislike the account settings as it tries to do too much automatically,also the creation of new .pst based folders is not as simple.

        Apart from the security, there is little to recommend Outlook 2019 over 2007…

    6. MarkTriumphant

      Re: Why change?

      > Now they are also nobbling M365 subscription by forcing a huge price hike to include unwanted AI features I can see less and less reason to keep people on the system.

      Apparently it is possible to go back to the original non-CoPilot subscription, but they keep it hidden. I'm still trying to work it out so that my renewal will still be at the old price.

      1. Evil Scot Bronze badge

        Re: Why change?

        They use the same pattern as Vermin do.

        Try to cancel and you get the package you want.

    7. Jellied Eel Silver badge

      Re: Why change?

      Many see the problem is that Win11 is pointlessly rearranging the furniture and breaking things people use. Normal users like things that don't change constantly. They don't care about Windows. They just want to turn on a computer, go online, write a letter to the council, and use the internet.

      Having spent part of the holiday season building 4x Win11 boxen for SWMBO and her kids, I know this feeling well. Even small stuff, like the installer telling me 'good things are coming', then redefining what '100% complete' means. Being a simple soul, I interpret that as 'Done!' and wonder why it then takes 5-10mins more before something happens. And that something being nagging popups to pay for 365 subs, extra OneDrive storage, sharing my photos, and paying for a Gamepass subscription.

      And some time later, actually being able to use the PC. Which then means killing Copilot, Teams, 365 and a bunch of other crap that's been installed and is currently wasting resources. Which kind of got me thinking. To me, an OS is just a thing that runs quietly in the background and lets me GSD, even if the 'S' is just firing up Factorio and avoiding being stomped flat on Gleba. I really don't need all the garbage running in the background that MS launches, and often doesn't seem to terminate. There's stuff that might be helpful, like how do I bind the Snipping Tool to the PrtScr key? There's probably a way to do that, but Win11's help is often usually the opposite, so then it's resorting to searching. The Internet, not locally, because locally is no help.. Except searches often seem to default to the Internet rather than local. Win11 is strange like that. I sometimes have the folder open for stuff I'm 'searching' for, and Windows can't find it. So I wonder what, exactly the search process actually does because it always seems to be busy, but producing nothing useful.

      But I digress.. And suggest the 'killer app' could be Win11-Eco! Win11 is littered with guff about energy saving, so.. Why not actually allow a mode that does this? Allow a default, bare-bones OS install with all the garbage not loaded until it's actually needed. Most people probably have PCs with SSDs, so response times shouldn't be a problem. I've been having FUN! with this having given in and gotten a 'smart' meter. So now I have that display sitting next to my PC and can see what it tells me happens to power consumption when I terminate with extreme prejudice the crap that I don't think should be running.. Which can save an easy 50-75W. So figure on a potential energy saving of 75MW per 1m Win11-Eco licences. Now we're talking real money!

      Which serves the dual purpose of allowing Microsoft to flex their 'Green' credentials, helps free up capacity to feed their datacentre expansion, and gives users.. well, an OS that does what an OS is supposed to do. Then Win11-Eco doesn't do what Win11 Pro does and reinstalls/restarts 'your' OS every update, or just seemingly randomly and we have to waste more time & energy killing the crap again. Oh, and living in fear of 24H2 automatically enabling HurtLocker. I wonder how many people have trusted the 'Your version of Windows has reached the end of service' red warning, not understood the implications of HurtLocker, and bricked their PCs as a result.

      1. imanidiot Silver badge

        Re: Why change?

        The fact that something like Tiny11 can exist that takes an over 20GB install file/image down to 3.54 GB should be indication enough that Win11 is bloated beyond any reasonable measure. There's so much cruft that is just not required it's frankly nearly unbelievable.

  10. xyz Silver badge

    Bought a cheap (off amazon) micro pc

    Had windows 11 on it. Played with that for a couple of clicks, went fuck that shit and installed Mint.

    1. KorndogDev

      Re: Bought a cheap (off amazon) micro pc

      In that case always remember to save your windows product key, prior to wiping it out. Just in case.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Bought a cheap (off amazon) micro pc

        To clarify that - just in case you want to send it back. Alternatively set up dual boot. Then occasionally you can boot up the Windows partition so you can point and laugh.

        It's work knowing you can update those cheapos. SWMO's own laptop has a dodgy M/B and the W2K era one she's using now is really slow. But I was worrying that something really cheaped out might not have access to a boot menu.

    2. Paul Crawford Silver badge

      Re: Bought a cheap (off amazon) micro pc

      We were gifted a half-decent laptop that have been "upgraded" to w11, it was crap, even by the standards of windows of late! FFS the adverts and menu entries for non-existent software you could rent like O365!

      I restored a copy of w10 only as we have some windows-specific software to configure UPS, and then fiddled the registry to lock out update versions. But it reminded me how much less trouble Ubuntu Linux has been in recent years, even though it also pisses me off at times.

    3. sabroni Silver badge
      Happy

      Re: went fuck that shit and installed Mint.

      Someone will be along to explain that you chose the wrong distro any minute....

  11. ComicalEngineer

    The main things that stop me going anywhere near Win 11 are (in no particular order)

    * Inability to arrange the desktop the way I've had it since Win95 i.e. Taskbar on the left

    * Incessant adverts

    * Bloatware crap clogging the machine up

    * Telemetry "spyware" reporting back to M$

    * Generally obstructive interface

    It beats me that M$ can't even produce the same interface which works perfectly well (for me) under W10 in their new flagship product.

    Maybe they started "depreciation" of Windows without telling anyone?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Windows 12

      > Maybe they started "depreciation" of Windows without telling anyone?

      They are getting ready for Win12 when AI replaces the GUI with a microphone.

      "We have listened to your feedback about problems with the GUI and now introduce Clippy to enhance the interface".

      Also available as a wetware plugin direct to the brain...

    2. collinsl Silver badge

      Maybe they started "depreciation" of Windows without telling anyone?

      I reckon it's to make their life easier when everything is "streamed" from the "cloud" and you don't have your own computer any more, just a connection to the internet. If there are fewer things to customise then it's easier to stream it.

    3. Woodnag

      Tune Win11

      It's not difficult to strip the nonsense out of Win11.

      Run tiny11builder https://github.com/ntdevlabs/tiny11builder/tree/main to rebuild the iso so the nonsense isn't installed. The link shows what's removed.

      This will install with secureboot and tpm disabled in the uefi (I recommend that), which means that MS won't force an upgrade later that you may not want becuase the install fails the hardware test.

      Install as local account.

      After install, use Winaero Tweaker to disable other unwanted features.

      Last recommendation... partition your drive (or use two drives) with a small C:\ drive for the OS (128GB SSD is fine), and the rest of the space or second drive (HDD if you like) for D:\ with Documents, Temp etc moved to there. Then it's quick to backup the small C:\ reasonably frequently as an image (DD will do that for free), whereas the D:\ stuff you can backup more often just by copying.

      1. navarac Silver badge

        Re: Tune Win11

        >> It's not difficult to strip the nonsense out of Win11. <<

        ....and on the next update, Microsoft dumps it all back on again. Rinse & repeat. No thanks, jumped aboard the Linux train during 2020.

      2. Dorf-2

        Re: Tune Win11

        To your point: I installed two 8TB HDDs, partitioned HDD1 into a C (operating system) & D (Data). I then turned the 2TB SSD into a scratch, gaming, work drive. I use MinTool Partition Wizard to Clone HDD1 to HDD2, and also do incremental backups to the NAS. If HDD1 gets corrupted or I screw something up, I just go in, swap wires, and get back to work. Also, I disable bitlocker so I can put the damaged drive in a cradle or whatever and access the data that's not on the OS drive. Also, just for added peace of mind, I changed the default folders from beneath my profile on C: to folders on the D drive. For example, MyDoc, Music, Photos, et al. are separate folders on D. The reason is that if my profile gets corrupted or I need to redo windows or whatever, none of my files get lost. I know it's a lot of redundancy, and I know the arguments about fast SSDs, and so on, but I don't mind sacrificing a few seconds of read/write time for the peace of mind this arrangement gives me. Also, my machine is not a laptop, it's in a secure location, everything is passworded at the bios level, and I'm the only one who uses this machine. I would likely engage bitlocker if I were travelling to some country like Israel where they routinely scan visitors' computers without permission (yes, they do) or Iraq where it's as likely as not to be confiscated just on GP (and yes, it was).

        1. Woodnag

          Re: Tune Win11

          I would suggest Veracrypt FDE instead of Bitlocker. I suspect that "some country like Israel" has no difficulty with getting around BL.

          1. Dorf-2

            Re: Tune Win11

            As you say, though I am chagrined to admit I thought BL was secure enough. I guess I've still got a lot to learn. Otherwise, I never leave the country with anything I'm truly concerned about, and what I do take is a stripped down system on a spare HDD (in an old dell laptop)--no contact lists, nothing personal, clean install of the OS, minimal programs, etc. When I get back, I remove the drive, offload whatever files I need and scan those, then wipe the drive entirely. Always. An old paranoid guy's version of an air gap... heh. Not perfect, but I haven't had any kind of virus, intrusion, or externally-caused problems in decades (at least that I'm aware of... :-(

            1. keithpeter Silver badge
              Pint

              Re: Tune Win11

              "stripped down system on a spare HDD (in an old dell laptop)--no contact lists, nothing personal, clean install of the OS, minimal programs, etc."

              That sounds like my normal laptop except I don't wipe it. You seem to have travelled to interesting places. Best of luck.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Tune Win11

          A secure location like a bunker you have to go through three layers of security just to go in and check your emails?

          Or a secure location like your house?

          Or is the house in the secure bunker?

          1. Dorf-2

            Re: Tune Win11

            Thanks for the laugh! Just my house, no bunker, SCIF, or otherwise, actual 'secure' place. Just good deadbolts, lots of security cameras, and so on.... Secure enough what I need now. Cheers.

        3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Tune Win11

          "if I were travelling to some country like Israel where they routinely scan visitors' computers without permission"

          Something like a Chromebook would be the solution to that. Not an actual Chromebook because you'd want to connect to your own server. You could then give one set of credentials to security and use something completely different for work.

    4. Dorf-2

      1. You can move the start menu to the left side of the task bar, if that's what you mean.

      2. No adverts in Pro versions that I'm aware of, but I don't use windows as a logged in user; I created a local administrator account profile immediately after installing W11 and then deleted the logged-in profile. Only local profiles on my machine, so no adverts.

      3. I uninstall all kinds of crap as part of my do list. There is still some, but not anything I don't want or use.

      4. You can disable the telemetry stuff in Services, as well as the feedback hub, and all of that phone-home stuff. It just takes time, willingness to work in the registry. In fact, there are a number of how-to articles on the microsoft website, but ten-forums and eleven-forums have whatever is not elsewhere available.

      5. The new interface sucks, but you can install and configure Open Shell to make menus anyway you like them, and you can revert windows explorer and the context menus to the old look if you want.

      That said, the task bar tray rearrangement is still a problem, and cleaning up their damned search window took more effort than it should have, but I no longer see suggestions, weather, or any of that crap.

      BL: You can make W11 look a lot like W10, and there are some things that are a little easier to get to, but if you're not familiar with the old dialog-box options, you have to dig a little harder in settings to get to stuff. I suggest using the control panel to find older options. It's not perfect, but it can be tweaked to help you fix thiings more easily than in settings.

      1. sarusa Silver badge

        He's talking about moving the entire taskbar to the left side of the screen, making it vertical and saving precious vertical monitor space. You can do that in WIn10, but MS removed it in Win11 to make it look more like MacOS.

        BTW, Start11 latest version has experimental support for bringing this back for anyone who's stuck on WIn11 but really wants that back.

        1. Retro-Coward

          In MacOS you can move the Dock to the left hand edge. I don't know what Microsoft was thinking.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Does Start11 comes bundled with Galactic Civilizations?

        3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          "saving precious vertical monitor space"

          Can't the Windows task bar autohide?

          1. Richard 12 Silver badge

            Yes, but that means I can't see it.

            Also, it breaks everything based on Electron.

        4. ComicalEngineer

          Quote: "He's talking about moving the entire taskbar to the left side of the screen, making it vertical and saving precious vertical monitor space. You can do that in WIn10, but MS removed it in Win11 to make it look more like MacOS."

          Indeed I am. Most of my documents are portrait with occasional landscape pages. On my 27" widescreen monitor I find vertical real estate more valuable than horizontal. And hell, I've had the taskbar there since using a 15" CRT with Win95. My daily drive Mint machine has the bar on the left, so why not this all singing, all dancing super-duper OS that I MUST have from M$?

          I have no reason to go beyond Win10, which does everything I need for work (I'm not a gamer), and I have an ancient laptop which was supplied with Vista that happily chugs along with Win7, which also does everything I need other than it's getting old and slow. In fact I shall be really glad when W10 updates stop and the full screen nags to upgrade to W11 stop appearing.

          PS: I find autohide annoying as I often have multiple windows open (current W10 machine has 20GB of RAM)

          PPS: If I wanted Windows to look like MacOS I'd buy a Mac

          1. Yankee Doodle Doofus Bronze badge

            < "I find autohide annoying as I often have multiple windows open..."

            I sometimes find autohide annoying also, but only when it's buggy or poorly implemented. It's a requirement for me, regardless of OS. I like my taskbar to be present on all displays (I usually have 2), so putting it on the side doesn't really work, it stays on the bottom, and has to autohide to give me all of my vertical real estate.

            1. peter_dtm

              Left on the left, right on the right

              I run two monitors too, but in W10 (& earlier) you can have the task bar in different places on different monitors & only show the apps on that monitor. Ran 2 monitors plus laptop screen for a while, laptop below & centred, so its taskbar was at the bottom.

              Why anyone would think putting the task bar at the bottom made any sort of sense for most users, I have never understood. But then I don’t understand the whole MS none functioning OS anyway.

              There is one not appalling tool from MS : PowerToys

          2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            "Indeed I am. Most of my documents are portrait with occasional landscape pages. On my 27" widescreen monitor I find vertical real estate more valuable than horizontal."

            Very often I find myself working with a document I'm writing on one side and some source document on the other so the width is valuable for that. But then I realised that LibreOffice writer can be set to two-up, e.g. two successive pages side by side which is great for laying out double-page spreads*. I don't know if Word does that as I don't use it. When reading comments like this it struck me that it would be a really good way to build a code editor as you'd effectively have a double-height monitor.

            * It actually has a book layout option so the first page of the document is displayed recto. It even has an option on print-preview to do that. But I still haven't found a way to get it to create proof PDFs that way - it just resorts to plain 2-up.

            1. Richard 12 Silver badge

              I use the horizontal space to have two independent views of the code.

              Either the same file many lines apart, or two different files side-by-side.

              It's one of the things Qt Creator does really well, Visual Studio does ok (it's tedious to get two views of the same file), and is yet another reason xcode is absolutely awful.

        5. Dorf-2

          Got it. I've never done that, so wasn't thinking in that direction.

  12. Kevin Johnston

    My take on this...

    Rather than take this opportunity to beat the drum for your preferred Linux distro use the chance to explain how flexible Linux is especially with 'Live USB' boot options allowing you to try a different distro every day until you find one that fits your lifestyle/way of working.

    Remind people that Linux does not force you to change all your habits just to fit the latest whalesong from the marketing department, if you don't what they are selling then look elsewhere.

    For those with long memories Linux allows us to revisit the early Z80/6502 days where every company had a different take on how to do things but it was the customers choice which vision they signed up for

    1. imanidiot Silver badge

      Re: My take on this...

      The problem with "allowing you to try a different distro every day until you find one that fits your lifestyle/way of working" is the very reason I have NOT moved to Linux. I have crap to do, and not enough time and patience to figure out how to do this in "yet another Linux distro" several times over before I might find one that does what I need. When I have time to turn my on my PC to do something, it is to do that something. Is this a catch-22, most definitely, but it's the reality I have to deal with and sticking to Win10 is currently the best worst option I have.

  13. BartyFartsLast Silver badge

    Over the years

    I've used Linux and usually hated it, this time I've put some concerted effort in, I've changed things around and found alternatives for the Windows software I use regularly, all my hobby dev environments are on Linux, about the only thing I'll miss is Notepad++

    When Win 10 starts nagging me it's no longer supported I'll image and archive the install off to the NAS then install Mint.

    There'll be a couple of legacy Windows systems for stuff I cannot replace (EPROM programmer and some other bits) but the only Win 11 machine I'll have is the corporate one.

    1. dharmOS

      Re: Over the years

      Notepad++ is available as a Snap with integrated Wine install environment. I have it running on an Ubuntu installs.

      https://snapcraft.io/notepad-plus-plus

    2. Matt Collins

      Re: Over the years

      "about the only thing I'll miss is Notepad++"

      I sill miss Brief... https://www.briefeditor.com/ but that's just my age. I know I'd miss Notepad++ too

      1. Woodnag

        Re: Over the years

        I moved from Brief to https://www.editpadpro.com/

    3. Basmman63

      Re: Over the years

      Try Notepadqq. Basically, the same thing and available natively on many distros, or as a Flatpak. No need for snap nonsense.

  14. AndrueC Silver badge
    Meh

    Well quite. I have three computers here. A server running on refurbed hardware, a newer but cheap laptop and an older laptop (which is my primary computer). Only the old laptop is capable of running Win 11 and it upgraded automatically several years ago.

    I can't tell the difference between any of them.

    1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

      If that server is running Server, it is upgradable. Server 2025 is built from the same codebase as Win11 but doesn't gave the same hardware requirements.

      Apparently if you pay several hundred dollars then that works instead.

  15. bronskimac

    StartAllBack rules Windows 11

    Without StartAllBack I would have downgraded to Windows 10. There is so much that is terrible in 11. My second PC, which doesn't meet the hardware requirements, will be getting Linux, probably the Mint variety.

  16. KorndogDev

    Elderly like Mint

    Over a year ago gave Linux Mint to two neighbors of mine, both 70+, and they could not be happier. Free, fast, non-intrusive, no bloatware, no malware, simple UI. Since then they've reported zero problems, including printing and scanning. Updates are set to automatic and the OS just does its job flawlessly.

    1. Yankee Doodle Doofus Bronze badge

      Re: Elderly like Mint

      Around a dozen years ago I convinced my parents to try LibreOffice, as they didn't want to pay for a newer version of Microsoft Office (I think they were using Office 2000 or 2003 at that point). This turned out to be a great thing a few years ago, when I added some RAM and swapped their HD for an SSD to breathe some life into their aging kit. I realized at the time that every piece of software they use has a linux version available. I convinced them to let me put Mint on it (with the promise to swap them back to Windows if they didn't like it). Everything works to their satisfaction, and there was zero learning curve.

    2. Lon24

      Re: Elderly like Mint

      Well I'm nearer 80 than 70 thank you.

      And I've given up on installing Linux distros on Gen Z PCs (or whatever they are called these days). They always moan and groan finding one obscure app that won't run. The (better) FOSS alternative isn't acceptable and it's not safe because it can't run Norton/McAffee or whatever. They revert back to widows and then, because I appear to be an expert, call me up when they can't do something because they had forgotten they needed a Microsoft account.

      Mention command line and they go a darker shade of black <:-(

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Elderly like Mint

        "They revert back to widows and then, because I appear to be an expert, call me up when they can't do something "

        If they revert there's no support. That's the rule. Stick to it.

        OTOH my CiL's 50 something Windows-using children find they can use her Zorin if they need to so it's not all youngsters who are stuck.

    3. HorseflySteve

      Re: Elderly like Mint

      Last year, my eldest sister (in her late 70s) asked me to help with an old Windows laptop that belonged to her local church. She didn't want any me to fix it, as such, rather to suggest what she could do going forward as it was on its last legs.

      I got her a used Asus E210MA laptop from Cash Converters (a pawnbrokers in the UK) for £80, put a 500GB SSD in it and installed Linux Mint 21.3 MATE edition on it.

      I also upgraded the LibreOffice so it would open the Church collections/donations spreadsheet that I'd previously moved from MS Office to LO on the old Windows laptop the year before but which was a later version of LO than shipped with Mint so gave a spreadsheet size error on opening it.

      That was last May and, to date, I've had just one cry for help when the asus-touchpad-numpad driver got a bit confused and the cursor wouldn't move though the Number Pad mode light was off. I was able to tell her how to recover from that within seconds. I suspect I forgot to increase the driver's sleep parameter when I installed it; I'll sort that out on my next visit (she lives 400miles away!)

      Having used Windows PCs all her working life (she was a bank manager & management troubleshooter), she has had no problem adapting to Mint & has handled all updates without any issues.

      My experience of Mint MATE is that is that it is very stable, usually just works & fixes are readily available when it doesn't.

  17. John - West Wales

    Windows with pushing pay as you play games etc.

    I have finally had enough of windows, after running Linux for a long time I use that as my personal daily OS and work stuff I get done on a new Mac mini M4, I know Apple change a premium for their products but they usually just work, Update your update Mac OS and you don't suddenly find that Apple have installed something from their App Store for you to "Try". I also do not find Mac OS apart from a few instances as restrictive as Win 11, of course Linux is the way to go if you can, your OS, how you want it. Until MS take away the pushing of products in their OS I will not use it. I paid for Win 11 Pro, why should I have to go through my apps list and un-install stuff that I never asked to be installed in the first place every time there is an update?

    1. David 132 Silver badge

      Re: Windows with pushing pay as you play games etc.

      Gah, yes, few things raise my blood pressure as much as the depressingly- and inappropriately-cheerful "$crapware_X Just Got Installed! Check It Out!" popup appearing in Windows. That's a setting that gets nuked from orbit very first thing after I acquire a new Windows PC, no matter how misleadingly-named it is in Settings. "Occasionally show Suggestions" sounds so helpful, doesn't it?

    2. Ken Hagan Gold badge

      Re: Windows with pushing pay as you play games etc.

      "I know Apple change a premium for their products but they usually just work"

      As I note in a reply a little bit above this one, that's true of Microsoft, too. Pay a little premium for Server 2025 and it just works, without all the Win11 shit.

      It really is just all about the money.

  18. Clive Arnold

    Still happily using my Windows 7 OS and 10 for VR gaming. I refuse to go to 11 as I have whatever I need for the next who knows how many years.

    And please, I know all about the security problems that are possible, but my computers are locked down more securely than Angela Rayner's knickers

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      As to the last, we'll just have to take your word on that.

    2. sabroni Silver badge
      Stop

      re: more securely than Angela Rayner's knickers

      Oh my aching sides, the satire is just soooo biting.

      Because, she's a woman, right? And she wears knickers. And knickers are funny. Ask anyone who started school last year.

      1. Mrs Spartacus

        Re: re: more securely than Angela Rayner's knickers

        I think it's rather because she is a bit of a loose chav.

  19. Primus Secundus Tertius

    Who cares about the OS

    I use computers for their office software and for internet browsing and email. The operating system should be something in the background that can be taken for granted. I see no reason for updating to Windows 11 except for the aggravation from Microsoft.

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    selling sand at the proverbial beach,

    In the case of Windows 11 I'd have thought "selling shit in a sewage works" would have been apposite.

  21. jonathan keith
    Flame

    The continuing enshittification of (almost) everything

    Yes, 98, Vista, 8 were pretty (ok, very) crappy, but their service packs (98SE, 7, 8.1) eventually fixed them up pretty well. Even XP only really shone after three service packs.

    Nobody much likes change, but the big problem with Win11 is that it is actively more difficult and time-consuming to use than previous versions, for no obvious or clearly-explained reasons. Change because it's significantly more efficient once you've adapted? Grumble, moan, demand proof or examples, but all right. But change for the sake of change alone, or more cynically change for the sake of profit alone is not good enough. The only carrot in view is the promise of bonuses (or just continued employment) for those at Microsoft and their satellite businesses, but for the users, Win11 only offers a stick, and that does not make a compelling sales pitch.

    1. ITMA Silver badge
      Devil

      Re: The continuing enshittification of (almost) everything

      "Win11 only offers a stick"

      And to paraphrase Dirty Harry - it's the shit end of the stick at that.

  22. Henry Wertz 1 Gold badge

    Windows 12?

    I've been using Linux since 1993 so I'm just enjoying this from the sidelines...

    But given some people's 'every other Windows version is good' theory (which is a bit naft since if you think 95 was good you'd say 98 is bad and WindowsME was good... and same with NT4, 2000 and XP...). But people use that to explain Vista and Windows 8.

    Based on that theory, maybe some who don't like Windows 11 would reconsider if they quickly put out Windows 12 LOL. I'm just kidding of course, but as a Linux user, Microsoft can feel free to do what they want.

    1. K555

      But given some people's 'every other Windows version is good' theory

      I think you have to decide how you're going to count 'versions' to try and make that one fit. I'm going to have to make up a spreadsheet one day to see if there's a pattern.

      Whilst 95 made many leaps, I don't remember it ever being 'solid' for me till 95c came along. I'd Venture 98 wasn't so bad by SE. XP needed that 3rd service pack before I was really happy with it. So do you count 'minor' releases, service packs? What about what NT version sits under it all?

      8, 10 and 11 have been stinkers for me. The only reason 10 is looked on as 'OK' now is because people have the perspective of 8. A bit like the MK5 Golf GTi being hailed as a return to the glory days because it was a sort-of-average hot hatch but happened to follow the MK4 hitting rock bottom with a very heavy thud.

      I think the most onerous part of Windows 7 (2008R2) admin was the constant battle with it's servicing stack being broken and refusing to apply patches (always fun after they abandoned service packs if you went back to an 'original' image for an install, 237 you say? Off you trot). I spend far less time troubleshooting why patches won't apply to 10/11 and far more time dealing with the fallout of when the DO apply!

      1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

        Re: But given some people's 'every other Windows version is good' theory

        Those 200+ updates (Server 2012 100+ if fresh installed, don't ask about Vista...) are the reason why I wrote a powershell script doing following: Install one update after antother until one says "need reboot", then do so, after reboot go on with the rest. Works very well compared to the "we have to install 100+ updates in one go" approach. May take a day and over 50 reboots, but then it is done. I could get quite som Servers and Win7/8 boxes back on the update track that way.

        And for Vista: Yes, that script works there too after SP2 and powershell update to V3 :D. Never tested in on XP/Server 2003.

      2. Ghostman

        Re: But given some people's 'every other Windows version is good' theory

        I'd Venture 98 wasn't so bad by SE.

        Actually, Win 98 was really bad if you had Win 95 installed at all. Nothing worked. No printers, no scanners, most drivers for almost any hardware until 98 SE.

        Of course there will be those who either don't remember, or those who wrote their own drivers.

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Windows 12?

      I suspect they're on a permanent downward trend now. There's nobody there with any idea of what an OS should do and what it shouldn't do. That may not be strictly correct but it's obviously the case in marketing and they're calling all the shots.

      1. 0laf Silver badge

        Re: Windows 12?

        They know exacty what is should do for MS i.e. harvest your data.

        They don't care how it works for you the consumer

    3. David Hicklin Silver badge

      Re: Windows 12?

      > But given some people's 'every other Windows version is good' theory

      Yeah it does not quite fit and can cause much discussion bot for me the good ones were 98SE, XP SP3, 2000 and win 7. After that is has been downhill all the way and win10 is only acceptable after a lot of fixing up but why the f**k should I have to do that to make it usable.

      Next OS will be Linux based, either Mint or (indrawn breath) a Mac.

  23. Annihilator

    TPM is my lifeline

    I've got TPM2 disabled in the bios, as it's the only thing that's currently a dead cert to prevent Microsoft from slipping in the upgrade (despite my best efforts, it's really really difficult to stop them forcing an upgrade if they really decide they want to).

    And it's TPM that's pee'd me off in the Win11 debacle. "users would probably prefer to select how secure they want their desktop to be rather than have Microsoft decide for them .... BitLocker, for example, is on by default, even in the Home edition of Windows 11 from 24H2"

    The summary of that statement is that at some point Microsoft decided they wanted to lock users data to the motherboard - so that when a parent or elderly relative/friend comes crying that their PC is a smoking mess, I can't recover their data anymore by just plugging in their HDD/SSD/M2 stick to a different machine and read it. Unless said relative/friend realised bitlocker was now enabled (they won't have), and securely stored their recover key somewhere - which let's face it, no home user will have done. Still, at least they're forcing OneDrive on everyone, so if they're lucky, a copy of their data is now being spied on in an Azure datacentre somewhere.

    1. Chet Mannly

      Re: TPM is my lifeline

      And that's the point of the encryption - ensuring it's vastly difficult/impossible for a typical user to recover from a failure unless you have paid for Onedrvie...

      1. Annihilator

        Re: TPM is my lifeline

        Yep. I'm really struggling to come up with a scenario where my parents' PC legitimately needs encryption, particularly when I don't even think their machine even has a password on it. I guess it prevents someone stealing their SSD and getting access to all their photos and random word documents...

    2. blu3b3rry

      Re: TPM is my lifeline

      This is exactly why I steered my folks away from replacing their out of support 2014 era iMac with a cheaper Windows 11 PC - replacing with another iMac may well be hellishly more expensive but at least I won't be having to fix it every few weeks, plus it's a UI they already know instead of whatever fscking mess you have to tolerate as part of W11.

    3. Fred Daggy Silver badge

      Re: TPM is my lifeline

      That number will, probably, be saved in their MS online account. But if you've used a local account, then no it won't be there. And good luck prising the password out of the dead reletive, because it was saved on the hard drive that is now inaccessible.

      All part of the plan by MS.

      I hated 10, but it seems like quite reasonable compared to 11. I mean, ever tried to simply change the foreground colour in Terminal? Just the foreground colour, so one may colour code for certain time-overlapping tasks. One yellow, one light green, one bright white? Now it requires building a theme for each colour. Even the Powershell application has the tab borked and needs a profile.

      Give me more or less Windows 2000, Sp4, then just update the security. There is nothing in the later Windows editions that has make me more productive. Indeed, I am fighting Windows all the way, not working. (Compared to a Mac for writing and ebook designing, or Linux for transcoding, or either for Cloud administration (my paying gig)).

  24. JimmyPage
    Linux

    (Most) tech has plateaued

    I am writing this on a 5 year old Dell Inspiron 5505 with 16Gb. Does everything I every wanted. It's still happily running Windows 10 which wasn't my choice, but does everything I want.

    My phone is a Samsung A7 from 2018 that - guess what - does everything I want.

    Notice what I don't want - much less "need" - is any amount of "AI" crufty shite. If I want that, I can just fire up whichever LLM I want and use it from there.

    Frankly even Windows 10 is a bit advanced. I don't really see it added much to my life over the Windows 7 it replaced.

  25. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

    Best three features....

    Nested-V AMD.

    robocopy /iorate.

    SMB compression.

    How many use all three features in Windows 11? Well.... One? Me? Or is there more than one?

    How many use two of those Windows 11 features? Well... less then one in 1000 ?

    How many use one of those Windows 11 features? Well... SMB Compression, if the Server is at least 2022 or you copy to another Windows 11... Currently 1%, maybe unknowingly more than 10% of Win 11 users "use" SMB-Compression?

    The same features on Server 2022/Server 2025 get used more, for obvious reasons that admins know and need robocopy /iorate and can make good use of SMB-Compression. Nested-V is nice too, but not used that often. Server 2022/2025 have one thing better than Windows 11: Less ressources, less bloat, quasi the clean version of the client OS. And Server 2022 still has the Windows 10 start menu and task bar, a very very big plus. But how many use Server 2022 on their Laptop and other client machines just 'cause they prefer it even over Windows 10? I mean, except me? Anyone? Bueller?

    (Writing this on an Fujitsu Lifebook E746, 16 GB, i5-6300U, Server 2022, CD-ROM taken out second battery in that slot. Gaming-Machine is the Win 11 thingy)

  26. kmorwath

    The only reason to update to Windows 11 is to satisfy Nadella's cost cutting.

    Since Nadella took the helm, he's trying to cut development costs as much as he can. Do you believe he adopted FOSS because is superior? LOL - he understood he can save a lot on development if most of the software id developed by people he doesn't have to pay. Azure is a money cow because the investment to develop and run it is much lower than if Microsoft had to develop all that software itself. And it cashes the profits and bonuses.

    Windows feature elimination is again a cost-cutting measure. A simplified UI is far easier to code, and to be coded by cheaper and less skilled developers. The "new" Outlook can be coded by the same outlook.com developers, and you don't have to pay expensive C++ developers. As a side bonus, you get all the users' emails to train your AIs.

    And we saw the uncaught bugs in updates - and the abysmal security in what should be flagship products.

    In ten years Nadella's Microsoft has been unable to port all the settings to the "new" control panel (and what was ported has often been simplified up to the point of being almost useless), or to ditch it. Windows 11 hardware requirements means Nadella can cut even more in development and tests. You have to replace a working PC? Not an issue of his, dalit.

    People liked to bash Ballmer - who had his own defects. Nadella's Microsoft is far worse. He doesn't care about software and its development, he does care about services he can get cheaply, and then sell them dearly.

    Unluckily, the only real competitor is macOS. Until Linux offers a unified desktop UI API, backwards compatibility, and ends its ideological hate for commercial software, it won't be able to replace Windows regardless how much Nadella cripples it.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @kmorwath - Re: The only reason to update to Windows 11 is to satisfy Nadella's cost cutting.

      I don't get your point regarding the hate for commercial software. If I'm reading correctly, the vast majority of posts here in this discussion are from people who despise Microsoft products which is commercial software. And it's for the same reason, you pay money only to have someone locking you into their product and removing any choice you might want to exercise. Microsoft wants you to upgrade, you pay and of course, you upgrade. Well, Linux purists hate this. With a passion.

      As for multitude of desktops, would you like to have a say in which one should be the unique desktop to be forced on all Linux users ?

      No down-vote from me.

      1. kmorwath

        Re: @kmorwath - The only reason to update to Windows 11 is to satisfy Nadella's cost cutting.

        Unluckily many developers like to paid for their work, and have a decent life. The problem with FOSS is the money to develop software need to come from some other interests - often interests far worse than selling software, like gathering your personal data and use them against you. FOSS in an exploitative business model. Stallman is one of the greediest person I knew. People working for peanuts are serfs or slaves. Exactly what the industry wants today.

        I have no problem to pay for software just like I pay for every other product. Being a developer myself, I like to be paid for my work. And I don't want to be forced to insert into my applicatio data-stealing features to make a living.

        With more competition, there would be less risks of lock-ins. But since free software kills competion, everybody flocks to a small set of products, lock in si more probable. And worse software also. It is true that in the desktop space in the past 25-30 years we went backwards - there was better desktop software in 1999 than today.

        Linux can have all desktops it likes as long as there is a common API (like Win32, for example), under them. Having standard widgets that depends on the underlying desktop, and having to install different ones, is a big issue for software development - from tools to final applications.

        Until them, and as long as even proprietary GPU drivers are a no-no, Linux is not a viable alternative to Windows and macOS for too many users. "Purism" is an ideological stance. And stubborn ideology only makes the world worse - read Karl Popper.

        1. Yankee Doodle Doofus Bronze badge

          Re: @kmorwath - The only reason to update to Windows 11 is to satisfy Nadella's cost cutting.

          Yes, clearly FOSS is not for you, but with your arguments, neither is Windows, or macOS. I look forward to the new utopia that you will surely usher in.

          1. kmorwath

            Re: @kmorwath - The only reason to update to Windows 11 is to satisfy Nadella's cost cutting.

            Yes, "enshittifcation" means that there is only the worse choice among the worst ones - depending on what you need to do with a PC.

    2. Yankee Doodle Doofus Bronze badge

      Re: The only reason to update to Windows 11 is to satisfy Nadella's cost cutting.

      < "Until Linux offers a unified desktop UI API, backwards compatibility, and ends its ideological hate for commercial software..."

      Backwards compatibility? With what?

      "Linux" does not hate commercial software. Any company is free to release linux versions of their software, and many do. Failure to do so is a choice by the developers of the software, and can not realistically be blamed on linux itself.

      1. kmorwath

        Re: The only reason to update to Windows 11 is to satisfy Nadella's cost cutting.

        Linux makes developing and selling desktop commercial software much harder - and moreover lacks good desktop development tools. Blaming the developers is quite silly, the problem is Linux itself. But until it don't understand it, it can't change. Anyway the big money are on server development, the big users couldn't care less about its desktop versions, there are no money to be made there.

    3. navarac Silver badge

      Re: The only reason to update to Windows 11 is to satisfy Nadella's cost cutting.

      >> coded by cheaper and less skilled developers <<

      Yeah, and don't we know it. 24H2 and updates in general are a good example of this "brilliant" policy. FFS.

    4. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: The only reason to update to Windows 11 is to satisfy Nadella's cost cutting.

      "Until Linux offers a unified desktop UI API, backwards compatibility, and ends its ideological hate for commercial software, it won't be able to replace Windows regardless how much Nadella cripples it."

      You should give it a try. What is this unified desktop API you're looking for that doesn't exist. What would it let me do that my disktop doesn't currently do? Who are what is this Linux that holds opinions such as idealogical hatred? It's only people who have idealogical hatreds - and it comes steaming out of that sentence I quoted.

      1. kmorwath

        Re: The only reason to update to Windows 11 is to satisfy Nadella's cost cutting.

        I do routinely use Linux too. And everytime I use a desktop version I feel in the early 1990s. Both Windows and macOS has a unified API to write desktop applications. Linux has a bunch of different widgets from different vendors (and quite ugly, all of them) - because Torvalds & C. are paid to develop the kernel only.

        Sure, with some efforts and coping with an ugly UI you can do almost everything, like you did in 1990. But there are far better alternatives.

        1. LBJsPNS Bronze badge

          Re: The only reason to update to Windows 11 is to satisfy Nadella's cost cutting.

          I do hope MS is paying you well to spout this nonsense.

        2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: The only reason to update to Windows 11 is to satisfy Nadella's cost cutting.

          The prime requirements of a UI is that it works and that it works today the same way as it did yesterday. Elsewhere in these comments someone has quoted something to the effect that they wanted familiar ways to do unfamiliar things, not unfamiliar ways to do familiar things

  27. Dorf-2

    I have been working w/ WinTel machines and software since the mid 80s. I have liked, loved, hated, and despised every version of DoS and Windows since for all the reasons everyone who's done the same know. I use a very heavily 'tweaked' version of windows-pro using open-shell for menus, and pretty much every MS and Google phone-home kinds of thing turned off, etc. Until last month I was a fairly contented W10 power user, but I needed to upgrade my machine and Dell wouldn't sell me an XPS w/ W10 on it. To make a long infuriating story short, W11 is well into the hate category. I can no longer use Zone Alarm (my firewall of choice) because it crashes the system, even w/ the memory core isolation turned off, and a lot of other older tools I use regularly (like Lupas rename) need to be tweaked to run properly, etc. Most off all, I resent the bitlocker on-by-default option, the rounded windows corners, the new goofy version of windows explorer, the utterly garbage context menus, and all of the other so-called improvements that have just made things childishly stupid looking and wonky. For example, there is the well documented millisecond delay when clicking an app inon. At least 1/4 of the time, I need to go back to click an icon to open the app. Likewise it has become near impossible to rearrange the boot order so my batch files run sooner in the sequence. I know there are things I can do, and I know I could upgrade to newer alternative software, and I know I could go back to Linux (I ran a small-town ISP for a while, so it's not alien stuff), or just use my QNAP NAS as a workstation, etc. However, I do a TON of stuff in word, excel, powerpoint, and even more in a large number of graphics programs, and I build websites in jAlbum, etc. AND I REFUSE TO PUT ANYTHING ON MS SERVERS or use Office 365. So bottom line, it's just mo-better-faster-easier for now to work in a windows environment for everything I do than to switch. Unfortunately, W11 just makes things harder and unnecessarily complicated, so it took a third again as long to tweak everything back to the way I want it. Frankly, it wasn't worth the effort and I certainly would not have done it if I had any other option that would have worked for me. IMO, W11 is just this decade's version of W08 & 8.1.

    1. David 132 Silver badge
      Pint

      Zone Alarm. Wow. Not mocking you, but there’s a product name I haven’t heard in a long time. I think I last used it around 2005, maybe?

      1. Dorf-2

        I've been using it on and off since forever. I use other tools for AV and Malware Bytes, and etc, but ZA was easy to config and simple enough. Right now I'm fiddling w/ tinywall, but I'm not sure I need or want to bother with it, considering it's pretty much a front end to Defender. I would prefer they just fix it, like they supposedly have w/ their other stuff, but I'm not hopeful.

    2. AndrueC Silver badge
      Headmaster

      Error 42: Paragraph buffer overflow.

      1. Dorf-2

        Too many words or not enough spacing to give one time to digest it all?

      2. David Hicklin Silver badge

        Try an see if AI can parse that for you ??

    3. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

      You REALLY need this :D.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I mean, Lupas Rename on their own website don't say they support anything past Windows 8.

      https://rename.lupasfreeware.org/lupasrename.php

      A certain amount has to be on them for not releasing a new version since 2005.

      1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

        bulkrenameutility.co.uk - a bit loaded UI, why I still have the older version 3.0.0.1 and 2.7.1.3 around. Other than that: Works well.

        But I have to check the newest version, maybe finally the "show only these rename options" possibility has been added.

        1. Dorf-2

          I also have the updated version of BRU, but it's overly complex for a lot of the simple stuff I do, and LR is an easy to use/adjust interface. All it needed to make it work properly is a registry tweak that lets it work from a context menu as it always has. In fact, I probably use it at least 3-5 times a week at least. I do a lot of photo work, and Downloader Pro is good for most stuff, but when I get to culling and sorting, LR is my go to (or I use FastStone Rename, which is a fine piece of software). BRU for me is is for big, complicated jobs mostly.

    5. jospanner Silver badge

      I admire your dedication to using one and only one paragraph

    6. glennsills@gmail.com

      How many Windows 10 user does it take to install Windows 11

      It takes three. One to do the install and two to complain about how Windows 10 was way better.

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: How many Windows 10 user does it take to install Windows 11

        > two to complain about how Windows 10 was way better.

        One of whom is typically the person whose PC has been “refreshed” with Windows 11, the other the friend they called to ask “how do I do this… it used to be here in W10”…

  28. Phydeux

    Same story, different year

    These are the same complaints made when Windows Me came out requiring 3D acceleration, or when Mac left Motorola for Intel, and again when they went to ARM.

    People treat a PC like an appliance they can keep on the kitchen counter until it quits, not a complex mix of hardware and software that eventually is surpassed and can no longer be used safely.

    A lot of the improvements made to Win11 are security changes that are baked in, rather than simply tacked onto Win10. Which makes it much easier to "untack". This is very noticeable with regard to MS tightening driver compatibility to eliminate those that pose security risks, like old Logitech camera drivers. People complain their "perfectly functional" cameras no longer work but don't care that the old drivers left them vulnerable to side-channel memory attacks.

    Eventually your jalopy can't keep up with traffic on the highway and becomes a hazard to everyone else on the road. And all those pre-Win10 machines are those jalopies.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Same story, different year

      "These are the same complaints made when Windows Me came out requiring 3D acceleration"

      Proper BS. 3D acceleration was actually useful. Me instead was piece of crap.

      11 just doesn't offer *anything* useful.

      "People treat a PC like an appliance they can keep on the kitchen counter until it quits,"

      Yes. *A tool* for doing *work*. Ever heard the concept? For you it's a toy to to be played with and obviously no work is happening.

      "And all those pre-Win10 machines are those jalopies."

      Even more BS. If anything, it's post-W7 machines which are those jalopies: Gazillion open ports you can't even close from firewall because MS decided so and on *every one of them* has MS -"quality" service open for hacking. A timebomb waiting for exploitation and a fat client for Microsoft cloud services. Not even Solitaire work without net connectivity.

      Firewall which can't close ports is a toy, literally.

    2. Chet Mannly

      Re: Same story, different year

      "Eventually your jalopy can't keep up with traffic on the highway and becomes a hazard to everyone else on the road."

      I have a 65 Mustang that would love to differ with that statement.

    3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Same story, different year

      First post, I see. You joined up just to praise W11?

    4. Richard 12 Silver badge

      Re: Same story, different year

      Windows 11 is Windows 10 with bits tacked on.

      Microsoft explicitly state this in some of their documentation.

    5. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: Same story, different year

      >” Eventually your jalopy can't keep up with traffic on the highway and becomes a hazard to everyone else on the road.”

      The laugh with this analogy is that is particularly true with respect to EVs. However, I expect my ICE car to be overtaking many of the ICE cars limping their way to the next (working) charging point…

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: Same story, different year

        Correction: However, I expect my ICE car to be overtaking many of the EV cars limping their way to the next (working) charging point.

  29. sarusa Silver badge
    Devil

    AI as a driver (lol)

    It's funny that anyone thinks AI is going to be the big sales driver for new PCs and laptops. Maybe it could be for mouth-breathing bogans, but anyone who knows anything about computers knows what a horrible idea something like Recall is, and as far as I can tell even the mouth-breathing bogans don't really care about copilot either way - the results are just useless, so it's a couple hour novelty for them (hur hur hur) then they get angry because it won't generate porn, so what's the point? Certainly not worth paying a couple hundred extra for.

  30. zerbey

    I don't mind Windows 11, and I do use it, but the artificial hardware requirements are just that. I've ran it on multiple systems that don't meet the minimum requirements with zero issues, but for non technical users the process of installing (and upgrading later) on such systems is intimidating, even if it's not particularly difficult. Microsoft should just allow the OS to run on the same hardware Windows 10 does, or at least replace the error with a warning so end users can make their own decisions. Then, perhaps they will see consumers upgrading.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      "the artificial hardware requirements are just that"

      But necessary to prevent free upgrades when they want everyone to buy a new box just so they also pay for a W11 licence but also allow the more recent purchases to upgrade so they can avoid the class actions they'd be hit with otherwise.

  31. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    @ Phydeux Hammer thief

    PC as appliance/tool is bad? I have purchased all the tools I need, who are you to say I am wrong not to buy a tool I do no need

    Why? I can choose for myself when something is redundant. thanks, if you steal my stuff and replace it with stuff I do not need then do not expect me to be pleased

    Windows security has never been. Microsoft priority and quite frankly this effects what data I have allowed M$ to see.

    As to your jalopy premise it is both weak and untrue.

    I presume you are from the US using jalopy rather than vintage car, which I might add in my country means both acceptable for road use and free from road tax. It does not mean unsafe nor are vintage vehicles required to drive at the speed limit which sounds like your ideal of safety.

    So until you willing to pay for my tool upgrades I will make my own choices of what tools I require

    1. anthonyhegedus Silver badge

      Re: @ Phydeux Hammer thief

      Who asked to rename Outlook to "Outlook (classic)" and make it start "New Outlook" instead? Who asked to get rid of all the parts of outlook - badly conceived as they were - with nonfunctional, even more badly conceived ones?

      Come to think of it, I distinctly don't remember asking Microsoft to make some Xbox app start on work computers. I could go on. So I will. After you click Start, why has the "lock" option moved to the power button instead of where it was, on clicking the user's name?

      Microsoft don't just do security updates. They have their own agenda and treat our computers like their testbeds. Seemingly random changes to stuff you've had for years and seemingly random times. I understand the need for progress but this absolute abomination of a company aren't doing it responsibly, reliably or right.

  32. Medixstiff

    Microsoft are not ready for Win11

    Microsoft need to pull their finger out and fix Fisher Price edition. When in first boot Task Manager takes up 25% CPU resources with just a vanilla install, someone needs a good firing or butt kicking. We are spec ing machines with 32GB's of RAM because it is so useless out of the box

    1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

      Re: Microsoft are not ready for Win11

      Task manager is an easy fix. Get the service pack 2 for Server 2003 R2 64 bit (in your language). Extract taskmgr.exe. Run it. Some information is missing the older one, but it works.

  33. game-tea
    Meh

    If only 95% of users cared as much as enthusiasts did. Hell, my colleagues don't even seem bothered by win11. It looks nice, it's just as unreliable as previous win versions, and it's up to date. Honestly, I can't recall a user from our tenants who actually customized their windows install apart from a desktop background.

  34. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    they won't pick even the low hanging fruit in terms of improvement.

    They don't improve the OS is countless ways that would be obvious if they paid attention to user pain points and really sought out simple low hanging fruit.

    If they cannot make me even a tasty appetizer why would I order the entree?

    Yet we have all the advertising, AI, replay all that crap. And yet they cannot get their basic search features to work.

    The fact they never improve these things undermines any confidence I have that AI offerings are going to be of any use to me. If they cannot make me even a tasty appetizer why would I order the entree?

    The fact that they don't see and address this, with all of the resources they have is testament that the company is completely off of the rails and one of the most broken businesses around. That in itself is a compelling argument to resist given them a dime.

  35. Barking mad

    Feature off switch

    "Many of the new on-by-default features of Windows 11 can be found in Windows 10 and just need to be switched on.."

    If on-by-default features can be turned off it wouldn't be so bad but in Microsoft 365 Microsoft has decreed that you cannot turn off its most invasive on-by-default feature, namely Copilot. OK, so in the latest release of Word there is now an unheralded off switch but in the rest of the suite, all I can say that I can't find it. To turn off Copiliot completely means reverting to the May 2024 release. It is Microsoft's force feeding features I don't want that will keep me off Win 11. Just because they spent all that money on new features is not a reason for me to want to use them.

    I'm not saying Copilot doesn't have value, it's just that it gets in my way - don't call me, I'll call you. Microsoft itself has discovered it opens security vulnerabilities.

    When I eventually need new hardware, it still won't be running Win 11. It'll be running MacOS..

  36. JRStern Bronze badge

    I don't know why and I don't know why I don't know why

    So there.

    Call it Windows 42 and I'll be first in line, maybe.

  37. The Central Scrutinizer Silver badge

    Microsoft.... lol ad infinitum.

    A thirty-two bit extension and graphical shell to a sixteen bit patch to an eight bit operating system originally coded for a four bit microprocessor which was written by a two-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition.

    That says it all, really.

  38. Bebu sa Ware
    Coat

    Microsoft has stuck to its guns

    wiser heads would have spiked their cannon and buggered off (retreated) unless the prospect being sliced up by a cavalry sabre was attractive.

    1. Like a badger

      Re: Microsoft has stuck to its guns

      That depends on your view of "wiser heads". I regretfully point to Microsoft's financial performance that shows the company's sales doubled in the last five and a half years, and profits have more than doubled in the same period. The company don't listen because they don't need to listen. The world gets force-fed Microsoft's latest ideas, and not withstanding slow take up of W11, they're still getting the licence fees for 10. Adding shit like Copilot doesn't matter, because so much of the customer base (both retail and enterprise) really are willing to accept it, or have their admins turn off the bits they don't like.

      None of that is going to change. Whilst MS don't report it quite this way, if you look at MS server, Office+365, Windows that stack is around half of all MS turnover and profit, and represents a near enough unchallenged monopoly position in enterprise. Yes, there's lots of Linux in most enterprises, and they could go Linux at the desktop: But very, very few have, the same is true for retail customers. Sometimes that's for valid reasons (truly essential applications or systems that don't have a Linux version), sometimes it's ignorance or fear. Running WINE is possible for Windows only apps, but it's hardly an enterprise solution, is it? And if you're running say an MS Dynamics corporate system, good luck using that smoothly in a Linux desktop environment (I know, assorted workarounds, but they're kludgy). Various parts of the corporate machine will insist they NEED Office to do their job - take accountants, hooked on Excel pivot tables like a down and out on crystal meth, so they'll insist that Excel is an essential app, and that LibreOffice Calc is simply not fit for their purpose. Likewise, imagine taking Powerpoint away from most corporate office workers - it would be carnage at the nursery.

      Everybody in this thread knows that any apps and OS can be made to work together, it's all 1s and 0s in the end, that LibreOffice and FOSS apps can do anything that the Windows swamp can do, that there's many inter-OS links on any enterprise stack. But so long as enterprise desktop remains a Windows fortress, MS have that near monopoly in perpetuity. The other thing is that most users and most enterprise don't actually care - the Microsoft annual tax (plus the bleed of data, endless security holes) isn't big enough to make them question their reliance, and so MS products are comfortably tolerated.

  39. Evilgoat76

    No compelling reason to do it

    I have a customer, staff and management are all older types. Through 7 to 10 we have everything working just right, everything is dialled in. Their desktops have had ram and SSD upgrades, everything is good with the world. 11 offers them nothing.

    Last week one of them died, and had to be replaced, unlike the last 11 machine I had to slot in, this one, with babysitting, just worked. The new recipient hates it, cant find anything and said it gets in her way, Sage hate it even more, but it works.

    Yesterday a W10 machine "upgraded itself" and instantly created an utter disaster, drive maps stopped working, ot wants an email address or fecking hello, won't talk to AD properly and as fir the Agfa supplied nightmare...

    Most are seeing the latter as their first exposure to 11 which leads to "dear god no, run away ”. I still dont want it, my customers dont want it, but managed it can be made a lot less painful rather than just foisting it on people....but that, the pointless hardware requirements, bling fir the sake of it. bully tactics, making it harder to do things, and no killer use case kean businesses dont care for it.

  40. 0laf Silver badge
    Childcatcher

    Sweet summer child

    Most users would still be happy with Windows 98SE and Office 97.

    Most user still don't do anything that that operating system couldn't do.

    OK maybe Win7 but really Microsoft has added next to nothing consumers need for the best part of 20yr.

    Since W7 MS has used it's OS monopoly to exploit users to facilitate its other business goals, it's not a product for consumers and hasn't been for a long time.

  41. SonWon

    When Windows 10 support ends on October 14, 2025 I do plan to upgrade to Linux, Manjaro! Linux is a mature platform and now can do all I want. If I find something that needs Win 11 it will be sand boxed in a VM.

    1. LBJsPNS Bronze badge

      Seconding Manjaro. Everything works right out of the box, and it's based on Arch. Endeavour is pretty good too.

  42. rpp

    A brief pause, please

    Ah, that's better. And now a few words from a typical windows user:

    --Windows 11 is just fine for me. I like it.

    --Many years ago, it was fashionable to hate IBM. Big Blue, and all that. Now it's Microsoft, and it's lots of fun. But the mantle seems to be passing to anything to do with Vice President Musk. Well deserved.

    --When I look back at price hikes from a few years ago, I can't find them in my bottom line, then or now. I just click the button and get on with life.

    --Judging from the comments, I must have a lot of bloatware on my machine. I don't know or care about it. Memory is cheap, hard drives are cheap, and the machine is fast. Every now and then I do find some app that installed with Windows that I didn't know about, and it turns out to be useful in some situations. That's very nice.

    OK, time is up, and the pause is over! You may now resume rants.

    1. navarac Silver badge

      Re: A brief pause, please

      Pleased you are so easily satisfied with W11. A lot of us are just not.

    2. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: A brief pause, please

      >” Memory is cheap, hard drives are cheap and the machine is fast.“

      Maybe, but there are a surprising number of W11 machines being sold with low spec CPUs, 8GB DDR5 (soldered) RAM and 256GB SSDs and are basically not user upgradeable…

    3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: A brief pause, please

      "Many years ago, it was fashionable to hate IBM. Big Blue, and all that."

      It turned out to be more wisdom than fashion, didn't it?

  43. anthonyhegedus Silver badge

    what a fucking waste of resources

    That's basically the problem. We have progress in both hardware and software and they feed off each other. Industry feeds off both and consumers suffer. We get new features we never asked for and are forced to upgrade the hardware to cope with the software that includes all these features. We get sold the advantages of the software and it's through the typical "hard sell".

    What concerns me most is the environmental impact. My company looks after ~480 computers. Out of that, ~150 are running windows 10. Out of those, 13 are capable of running windows 11. That means that about 145 computers are going to go into landfill. I can't see anybody wanting to upgrade to linux, they're all small companies using Microsoft 365 mostly, and I'm not willing to take the risk of suggesting linux because I know they won't.

    Microsoft created Windows 10. They created the market for the hardware. Now the hardware is - prematurely I'd say - obsolete. Microsoft should be taking a huge chunk of responsibility for this. Yes, I realise that these computers would get old some day, but we should be able to create an OS that'll keep the old hardware going until it well and truly dies.

    1. rpp

      Re: what a fucking waste of resources

      Its been put this way:

      "Whatever advances the hardware boys come up with the software boys will piss away."

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: what a fucking waste of resources

      "I can't see anybody wanting to upgrade to linux, they're all small companies using Microsoft 365 mostly"

      If by that you mean they're doing everything online then they'd scarcely notice what the client OS is. Why not suggest a trial?

  44. teknopaul

    The only hardware question

    The only hardware question that matters (can't it run Linux) now applies equally well to Os.

    How good is Linux on virtualbox or whatever you prefer.

    WSL improvements.

    Wine contributions,

    unfuck docker in windows,

    Dynamic ram allocation across Linux and Windows

    All might make me upgrade.

    Very little else.

    Not because I am a fanbois. But because all we do is deployed on Azure on Linux or Google or Amazon or Docker. As a company nothing we do runs on windows any more.

    When we did write windows apps, for ourselves and customers, each major version from Redmond caused headaches.

    So we don't.

  45. bernmeister
    Alert

    Beware Bitlocker

    Two times I have come across cases where people have got locked out with no access to a key due to not knowing bit locker was enabled and not being prepared with any recovery options.One user got locked out when he plugged in a USB memory stick. My advice was before you make any changes to your system check for bit locker and switch it off if present. Bit locker still makes me feel nervous. I hate it.

    1. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: Beware Bitlocker

      I would add bios admin passwords. I’ve got 3 HP W10 laptops that would upgrade to W11, if only someone knew the BIOS admin password to permit the installation of updated IME and BIOS. The admin password was set because they had Bitlocker and HPs security suite enabled…

  46. Capt.Obvious

    Microsoft originally stated that windows 10 would be the final version of windows, and they would simply provide updates to this forever, which was clearly a lie.

    I'm not replacing perfectly good computers just to get Windows 11, so I will likely bite the bullet and switch to Linux.

  47. steviebuk Silver badge

    Why users still couldn't care less about Windows 11

    Because as I said in the last article, no one likes anyone forcing themselves on you. Same with an OS. Fuck off Windows 11 and your can't customise the taskbar to have small icons fuckness.

  48. glennsills@gmail.com

    Yes but now that Windows 11 contains AI, everyone will want to upgrade from Windows 10!

    Or... maybe not.

  49. Neil 44

    Compatible processor list too short

    My work laptop has TPMS 2.0, but "only" a Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-7600U CPU @ 2.80GHz, 2901 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s) - which is not on the approved list. It works fine in Win10, so I don't doubt it also would on 11.

    Wonder if they will give it to me when I retire (which will probably be before September) so I can just put a distro of Linux on it that takes my fancy (maybe even more than one!)? (or maybe bodge it so that Win11 installs...)

    I feel a lot of hardware waste coming along - how does that play with WEEE?

    1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

      Re: Compatible processor list too short

      > I don't doubt it also would on 11.

      Windows 11 21h2 possibly, but you will notice the difference. Windows 11 24h2: Get a 6-core CPU (+ SMT on top).

    2. Ilgaz

      Re: Compatible processor list too short

      I have 7th gen i5 as well, I suggest you should stay on Win 10 as long as possible. Windows 11 24H2 has type1 hypervisor trickeries and the 7th gen i5 lacks a specific instruction to hardware accelerate it. You end up with horrible fan noise, at least 30% performance penalty etc. 8th gen doesn't have this issue, I am not sure about other issues that may arise.

      I suggest that you use Mint (for conservative but modern Linux) or openSUSE Tumbleweed.

  50. tatatata

    I need to replace a number of desktops, because the company I work for has sold its soul to Microsoft, and the old ones are just too old. And I need to get to get our users enthusiastic enough to let me replace their trusty old Windows 10 desktop. The only story I can tell at the moment is the fact that our policy requires them to have a fully supported version running.

    1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

      Naaa, too polite. Just deflect them with "not my decision, I am just executing the task." as monotonous as possible.

  51. This post has been deleted by its author

  52. Grunchy Silver badge

    Friggin Ell!

    I plonked my old Win10 SSD back onto the bus of my trusty old “pc mate” and logged into Microsoft for the first time in 1 coon’s age, lo and behold, they had Chucked a Copilot at me !!!

    %*!#?^!

    Dubbed off my old MS data onto my new Mint installation.

    I feel like I’m DONE with Microsoft. Apple too, for that matter.

    If I ever feel the need for a “copilot” (skepticism) I’m already running sandboxed Deepseek down in the basement.

    Nobody will ever be able to spy on my A.I.!

  53. Ilgaz

    If you have pre-gen8 Intel CPU, don't upgrade

    I have lived hell with fan noise/performance for 10 days and finally "downgraded" to Windows 10. My CPU (intel i5 7xxx) doesn't have specific instructions to do easy virtual machine based security and the geniuses at MS somehow managed to enable it, again. This time no tips/help worked and because I won't watch DRM videos with fan noise, I downgraded it. I previously managed to disable it using very advanced trickery but this time, nothing worked. My use for Windows is just movies/tv series and nothing else.

    Disabling "memory integrity" isn't enough for Win 11 24H2.

  54. Zakspade

    Bye!

    I run a file server at home. Being a cheapskate, I repurposed an unused PC. It runs Windows 10 Professional. This household is actually an Apple/Linux household. That will probably have many techies ask why the fileserver isn't Linux, but it just came about because Windows 10 Professional on a PC, 'was there and available.'

    A little while back, Microsoft applied updates to the Windows 10 box. It has a lowly processor and no TPM chip - so I tend to let it run and run, knowing it isn't going to be suddenly 'upgraded' to Windows 11.

    Unfortunately, the Microsoft-pushed update resulted in the box refusing to accept files from Apple kit. I can share/transfer files from anything to anything, but from Apple devices to that Windows 10 box, it is impossible.

    Current (clumsy) workaround is this:

    Copy Apple device hosted files to a spare Linux device. Upload from there.

    Solution (trialled): Run Windows 11 Professional.

    Chosen solution:

    Second-hand Intel-chipped Mini-Mac obtained and running headless.

    If i hadn't gone for the Mini-Mac, I would have installed Linux on the Windows 10 box.

    Whichever way I would have gone, Microsoft were never going to be an option.

    Way to go, Microsoft!

    1. LBJsPNS Bronze badge

      Re: Bye!

      "it just came about because Windows 10 Professional on a PC, 'was there and available.':

      You do realize you can have it running any number of Linux variants in about half an hour that won't have those problems?

      1. Yankee Doodle Doofus Bronze badge

        Re: Bye!

        I was confused by this also. Even if I specifically wanted a Windows 10 server for some reason and had an old Windows 10 desktop sitting around, I would wipe it and reinstall.

  55. Pegasus12345

    The last OS you will ever need

    I could be losing it, but I’m pretty sure when I was installing Windows 10 that some of the blurb on the install screen said something like “Windows 10…the last operating system you will ever need”. I remember laughing at the time, thinking it was a crazy statement to make. Does else remember that message?

    1. K555

      Re: The last OS you will ever need

      Yup. Turned out to be the last OS you'd ever want. ;)

      I also remember getting a bunch of box fresh laptops out that had voice prompts on the new setup / enable spyware thing (I had a desk with 12 Cortanas babbling on at me in unison - it was traumatic). When it reaches the licence it says something along the line of "You don't have to agree, but then... No windows!" in a jokey kind of tone. All I thought was 'don't tempt me!'

  56. Thehappyspoon

    Steamrolling Windows 11

    We have three windows 10 laptop/surface pros in the house, all in pristine condition. I plan to leave one on Windows 10 (handy for networking and usb drives), one migrate to a Linux distro (email, browsing etc) and the third I will replace with a Mac (stuff I deem important ). I'm dammed if I'm going to dance to Redmond's tune and line the pockets of stakeholders. Asking consumers to send good equipment to the dump is appalling.

  57. teebie

    Have they considered...improving it?

  58. gfrevivus

    Monopoly laws ?

    What hgas puzzled me is that ther has been no kickback from Antitrust legislation in the US . Also what arrangements , financial or otherwise , did MSoft make with the hardware manufacturers before rolling out the infamous TPM requirement ?

  59. Herby

    Anti Virus?

    I have bought a couple of Windows machines, and decided that they were infected with a virus. On both machines (a desktop from about 10 years ago, and a laptop from about 3 years ago) I got rid of the virus (Windows) and installed a Linux distribution. manually upgraded to the latest version of said distribution, and have had no troubles.

    Now it appears that the virus that infects PCs is ransomware that requires $$$ to some people in north west Washington state, so I will continue to use my Linux distribution as long as it lasts, which seems to be for a long time.

    I didn't list my Linux distribution to avoid any unreasonable comments. Insert the one you like the most and be happy.

    1. LBJsPNS Bronze badge

      Re: Anti Virus?

      "Whatever it is,

      I'm against it!"

      - Groucho

  60. tucklet

    W11 on a 2012 era machine

    Fresh installs from an ISO boot just work - you can skip past the checks even without the registry hacks.

    For in-place upgrade, the following worked, on a 3rd gen I7-3770 machine (CPU is ~ 2012 era)

    1. Download WindowsInstallationAssistant.exe from here https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows11

    2. Open a command window in Admin mode and run

    WindowsInstallationAssistant.exe /QuietInstall /SkipEULA /SkipCompatCheck

    Leave it for an hour or so, and come back .. you should see a Windows 11 installation prompt which went through perfectly.

    You need the "quiet" option otherwise a nag screen pops up and it fails!

  61. sggluther

    There are so many admirably smart posts in this thread, I hesitate to post this. While many of the UI "improvements" in Win11 are too dumbed down or are just "changes for change's sake", after Win11 was forced onto my wife's laptop, I'm sure that I (her IT Guy) can learn to live with it.

    EXCEPT--and this will probably seem silly to many--my Win11 show-stopper is its inability to move the task bar to the right/left edge of the screen. Monitors virtually always have more horizontal real estate than vertical real estate, therefore I preserve precious screen height by putting the taskbar along the right edge so I can see more lines/rows/pixels of my documents and drawings.

    I roll my eyes at myself for drawing my red line at this missing option, but seems to really matter to me.

    Thanks!

    1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

      My main workaround for that taskbar annoyance are two things:

      First is "translucent Taskbar", which makes the taskbar 100% transparent like it is not there, giving view to the things behind. I've been using that with windows 10 too, since I like that. Especially when you have multiple monitors and the vertical taskbar in the "middle".

      Second is a option which exists since Windows 95, but Windows 11 is the first Windows version I actually use it: Auto-hide Taskbar.

      A third thing: I use DesktopOK with the option to hide the desktop icons after 15 seconds.

      With all three things you achieve following: You only have your desktop background, either your wallpaper or your color. Undisturbed by anything. If you don't know that MS-Windows is running there, you don't see it. The applications started, with their border and UI give it away, but everything else does not show or distract. Even if you have, for practical reasons, a lot of desktop icons, they only appear when you need them.

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