back to article UK biz dept overspent by £208M prepping to pay workers hurt in Post Office IT scandal

The UK's spending watchdog has offered a "qualified opinion" on the Department for Business and Trade's accounts, largely down to uncertainties around a scheme designed to mitigate the historic injustice surrounding the Post Office Horizon IT scandal. In a statement, the National Audit Office said a lack of data and a breach …

  1. Vometia has insomnia. Again.

    "first implemented by ICL, a UK technology company later bought by Fujitsu"

    The Register unfailingly includes this line in any article about what I'm half inclined to start calling The Fujitsu Scandal as it feels rather contrived. Is Fujitsu paying you to say "Fujitsu is obviously blame-free in this unpleasant business and is the real victim here"?

    1. Jonathon Green

      Re: "first implemented by ICL, a UK technology company later bought by Fujitsu"

      It would be unfair to mention one without the other.

      It started out as ICL Pathway’s crock of shit and while Fujitsu had 15 years to fix it, didn’t, and doubled down by conspiring with the POst Office to pervert the course of justice it seems only fair to give the original architects their fair share of the credit…

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "first implemented by ICL, a UK technology company later bought by Fujitsu"

      The dozens of articles written here by Lindsay Clark on this scandal have focussed on the facts and the statements by the participants, without the author expressing their opinion. That is what I want to read. I'm not here for a blog to tell me what to think. I don't think you could read these articles without concluding that some post office employees should go to jail and some Fujitsu employees should follow them.

      There is one article where the journalistic mask slipped slightly and Lindsay's opinion came out.

      https://www.theregister.com/2024/04/11/uk_post_office_epos_procurement/

      "The public inquiry into the scandal centers on the deployment of Fujitsu's bug-ridden Horizon accounting system, which made mistakes in calculating the finances of local Post Office branches. The errors and the erroneous prosecutions left some bankrupt and others feeling suicidal, with several succeeding in ending their lives. Sixty people died before just seeing any sort of justice served."

      1. Headley_Grange Silver badge

        Re: "first implemented by ICL, a UK technology company later bought by Fujitsu"

        @Bendacious - totally agree. There are plenty of places to go if I want opinionated diatribe so the Reg is a nice island of calm.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "first implemented by ICL, a UK technology company later bought by Fujitsu"

          Just so long as you don't spend too much time in the comments...

    3. Michael Strorm Silver badge

      Re: "first implemented by ICL, a UK technology company later bought by Fujitsu"

      I've picked up and commented on that previously. Posting on my phone, but from memory and IIRC...

      Fujitsu had already owned something like 80% of ICL since 1990, several years before work on Horizon even started in the mid-90s.

      By the time it was actually rolled out in the late 90s, Fujitsu was the sole owner, and- keen to see something back on its investment- was putting pressure on the UK government to accept a system they knew even then had problems.

      Fujitsu in Japan also roped in Japanese government figures with implied threats to the UK-Japan trading relationship to help in that direction.

      So the excuse that Fujitsu innocently bought ICL unaware, and that it was a newly-acquired UK subsidiary that the Japanese parent knew little of just doesn't wash.

      1. diodesign (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

        'the excuse that Fujitsu innocently bought ICL unaware'

        I don't think anyone's saying that. But happy to make the history of Horizon, ICL, and Fujitsu clearer going forward.

        C.

        1. Michael Strorm Silver badge

          Re: 'the excuse that Fujitsu innocently bought ICL unaware'

          Yes, I posted that on my phone during a break.

          In hindsight I should have been clearer that this wasn't a direct response to anything you'd explicitly claimed in this specific article so much as to an argument that's been put forward more explicitly elsewhere- by others- during similar discussions (albeit still building on similar "it was ICL not Fujitsu" comments).

    4. h3nb45h3r

      Re: "first implemented by ICL, a UK technology company later bought by Fujitsu"

      This is an extremely important point. in 1990 Fujitsu acquired 80% of ICL, in 1998 Fujitsu became the sole shareholder and ICL were completely rebranded Fujitsu in 2002.

      The Horizon contract was signed in 1996 Horizon, the first Horizon terminal hit a Post Office counter in October 1999 (following a small number pilots sites).

      ICL possibly isn't a name that should be used in regard to any of the Post Office Scandal as Fujitsu were pulling the strings at all times.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "first implemented by ICL, a UK technology company later bought by Fujitsu"

        "ICL were completely rebranded Fujitsu in 2002."

        Around 2015 I used to drive past a building (a Data Centre AFAIK) in Germany which still had large ICL signs of either side of it

      2. diodesign (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

        Ownership

        It's a fair point. We've updated that sentence and made a note for future coverage. I don't think the way it was worded let anyone off the hook but it's OK to include more history in any case.

        C.

    5. diodesign (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

      'Fujitsu is obviously blame-free'

      I don't know how on Earth you could get that conclusion from our coverage. We're just pointing out the history of the thing. No, they're not paying us. I don't know why people go for the bribes claims right away.

      Also, I'll make the team aware of the other point above that Fujitsu owned the majority of ICL before its takeover; we'll mention that going forwards.

      C.

      1. Vometia has insomnia. Again.

        Re: 'Fujitsu is obviously blame-free'

        fwiw I don't think they're *actually* paying you: apart from the unlikelihood of you accepting such a deal, I don't think they have the PR skills. My reaction was probably more a case of this now being all anyone knows of a once innovative computer company and feeling a bit sad; then again, a decreasing number of people outside of the various oldies and curmudgeons have heard of the likes of DEC either. :(

  2. Will Godfrey Silver badge
    Unhappy

    They still don't get it.

    Personally I think 75k is a derisory sum considering what these PO victims have suffered over the years.

    P.S.

    Oh, and how do you compensate those that are dead - I bet their families don't get as much as a stale crust.

    1. heyrick Silver badge
      Mushroom

      Re: They still don't get it.

      Yes, it's somewhere between a slap in the face and a kick in the balls, isn't it?

      Given what the PO put these people through, this so-called "compensation" is less than three years salary. How is this not an insult?

      Let's start with this:

      * Double postmaster salary for every year since then and now.

      * For everybody convicted whether by "evidence" or their forced "confession", double it again.

      * For everybody who had to sell important assets (such as their home) to pay money they didn't steal, double it again.

      * For everybody who spent time behind bars, if only a single day in a police cell, double it again.

      * For those who chose to take their lives, double it again for their families.

      Yes, we're now talking millions per person. And why not? This was straight up malicious incompetence and those companies concerned need to suffer harsh consequences, not a minor amount that is "the cost of doing business". Let them argue amongst themselves who pays what.

      Oh, and one final thing, once a far more appropriate compensation is determined, and not this shitty 75K, specify clearly that it will double for every calendar year that it is not paid out. Make it far too expensive to drag this on and on until the people involved cark it, otherwise they'll do exactly that.

      Icon, because this is what it needs and this should only be the beginning, these companies cannot be trusted and must be audited to hell and back.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: They still don't get it.

        I would add to that. Make Fujitsu pay most of it but we can't do that because there will be an airtight contract absolving them of blame.

      2. Ian Johnston Silver badge

        Re: They still don't get it.

        £75k is only the estimated average financial loss. Compensation for wrongful conviction is separately calculated.

        My view is that the Post Office ought to be handed over to the sub-postmasters en masse to run as a co-operative from now on. Plus generaous compensation for those Vennells and her vicious bastards of underlings hounded, plus sacking of all senior PO managers and all their biassed thugs of investigators.

        1. ChrisElvidge Silver badge

          Re: Cooperative

          Said just this quite some time ago.

        2. Vometia has insomnia. Again.

          Re: They still don't get it.

          I'm also of the opinion that the C-suite culprits of all involved as well as the politicians who are still dicking about with this should be treated harshly. Maybe I'm becoming vindictive in my old age but I'm no longer as against the death penalty as I used to be; for people like them, especially the politicians, I'd like it brought back as a reminder that power should come with responsibility and consequences.

          1. 0laf Silver badge

            Re: They still don't get it.

            If politicians didn't come from the C-Suite then they are looking to retire to the C-suite so there is little chance you will see anything happen to put the cushy, responsibility-free lives of the c-suite at risk. We let the crooks write the rules.

        3. Jon 37 Silver badge

          Re: They still don't get it.

          When The Post Office was privatised, everyone knew this might be coming. So the government promised the soon-to-be new owners of the Post Office that the UK Taxpayers would pay any compensation. The government is paying the compensation. The Post Office gets off without any financial impact.

      3. BOFH in Training

        Re: They still don't get it.

        Make sure the executives of the PO get to pay everything first, and once they get bankrupt, the PO does the same, for the balance sum.

        If the execs get away, it just lets other execs know that they will not be punished for whatever stunt they pull.

      4. David 132 Silver badge

        Re: They still don't get it.

        >Let them argue amongst themselves who pays what.

        Oh, come on. It'll be the taxpayer. It's always the taxpayer.

    2. Ian Johnston Silver badge

      Re: They still don't get it.

      I think you may be mistakenly conflating two schemes. HSS (the main subject of the article) is financial compensation for those who put in or lost there own money as a result of Horizon[1] fouling up their accounting. HCRS is compensation for being wrong prosecuted and unfairly convicted.

      [1] Or Fujitsu/PO employees stealing the money, which I think is more likely.

    3. JWLong Silver badge

      Re: They still don't get it.

      Just look at the verb being used by the gov to describe the compensation to be given!

      SCHEME

      [verb]

      Make plans, especially in a devious way or with intent to do something illegal or wrong.

      I guess pantsing them once wasn't enough.

      Fucking government and corporations going to get away the easyway again.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: They still don't get it.

      You might be somewhat surprised at the level of compensation you are entitled to for being dead, it's not much about £11k as I recall.

      Loss of earnings and solatium are really what we are talking about as true compensation for victims and their families

    5. Michael Strorm Silver badge

      Re: They still don't get it.

      Remember that the victims don't just include those directly affected, but also family members associated with them.

      For example, one woman I heard being interviewed whose childhood was very different from what it would have been because (IIRC) her father had been wrongly imprisoned and both financially and reputationally ruined and they ended up moving to another area for that reason.

      How are secondary victims like that compensated, if at all?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: They still don't get it.

        They can claim under solatium which is loss to society. That is the principle under which you can claim for hurt, distress, potential future earnings not realised and harms which are otherwise generally societal rather than financial. The judge will make an assessment based upon many thing sincluding where you might have been otherwise in your life should this incident not have happened. It's an educated thumb in the air but generally the younger you were when affected by something the more you are likely to be compensated but likely not as much as you should be.

        Your lawyers will also take 25% + VAT.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    £750,000

    As a minimum.

  4. alain williams Silver badge

    Porridge time

    I still want to see some of the guilty at either the PO or Fujitsu spending a few years at HMP Slade. That after they have been bankrupted just as were some of the post masters.

    If that does not happen then something similar will happen again.

    1. Big_Boomer

      Re: Porridge time

      You forgot the Civil Servants and Politicians who helped cover this obscene scandal up, and those who are dragging it out right now!

      And why has there been a £208M "overspend" when they haven't even spent that much compensating most of the (Sub)Postmasters yet. W.t.f. is that money being spent on? That "overspend" would have paid £270,000 to each of the 768 wrongly convicted but as usual the corrupt establishment are all covering each others backs, making themselves a nice little pile in the process, and we get to foot the bill.

      1. Richard 12 Silver badge

        Re: Porridge time

        It's mostly gone to the lawyers.

        Private Eye has a good summary.

        Computer Weekly an even better one.

      2. ecofeco Silver badge

        Re: Porridge time

        I had to scroll this far down to find the correct take.

      3. aks

        Re: Porridge time

        No argument with the criticism of all of the above but *why on earth* did the courts rubber stamp these convictions? It can't be solely the bottomless pockets for lawers that the Government-backed Post Office had.

        Why did no judge raise a red flag?

      4. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: Porridge time

        It’s worse: why is the payment of compensation being treated as part of the departments normal spending budget?

        With this style of accounting, you can understand why the department/minister will not be wanting to give much out, claiming their lack of action “fair to taxpayers” (yes a former Tory minister is on public record of making this claim about the compensation payments, hit was totally lost on him that the payments should be fair to the victims ie. The post masters)

  5. VoiceOfTruth

    The wheels of British so-called justice turn extremely slowly

    "A statutory inquiry into the mass miscarriage of justice was opened in 2021 is ongoing."

    I predict the outcome: a lot of hot air and big words saying "this should not have happened and it must not have happen again". As if we didn't know that.

    I accuse these people of dragging their feet. I accuse the self-righteous British 'justice' industrial complex of living in ivory towers and seeing themselves through rose-tinted spectacles.

    Not a single judge or prosecutor will be admonished for this. The 'justice' system did not uncover this injustice - a reporter uncovered it. Meanwhile the prosecutors were slapping each other and themselves on the back on a 'good result', and the judges were giving homilies to wrongly convicted victims.

    Fuck the prosecutors and fuck the judges. These people are another part of the establishment who will not be held to account. They will go on as they always do as they will not be held to account. At the same time the 'inquiry' will keep paying the same motherfuckers to sit around on their arses as they rustle up some crocodile tears.

    1. Vometia has insomnia. Again.

      Re: The wheels of British so-called justice turn extremely slowly

      I think that's being optimistic tbh. They didn't even bring out the well-worn "Lessons Will Be Learned™" rubber stamp when my gf was murdered by staff at the local hospital because there're too many important people with vested interests; especially research, lots of money changing hands, so there's zero chance of getting an investigation. The Post Office scandal will never be adequately resolved, same as all the others which invariably drag on for decades because tptb know perfectly well that the complainants will eventually run out of money (and life).

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: The wheels of British so-called justice turn extremely slowly

      1. If the defendant has (been coerced into) pleading guilty then neither judge nor jury has any role in reaching a verdict. As some of the victims were in that position why are you blaming judges in those cases?

      2. If the defendant pleads not guilty and opts for a jury trial it is the jury, not the judges who reach a verdict.

      3. If the defendant pleads not guilty and opts for a summary trial then it is the judge's role to reach a verdict. That verdict can only be based on the evidence put before the court. I'm only familiar with judge-only trials in the so-called Diplock procedure in NI. There the judge gave a fully reasoned verdict, based on the evidence.

      4. I'm not sure as to the balance between 2 & 3 but I'm sure someone with a handle like VoiceOfTruth will be able to provide authoritative figures on this despite the lapse in knowledge about court procedure..

      5. Whatever the form of trial the judge's role is to remain impartial, and not imagine what they think the evidence should have been in areas where they have no technical knowledge. Thank goodness,

      1. VoiceOfTruth

        Re: The wheels of British so-called justice turn extremely slowly

        Why do I blame the judges? Because their job is to ensure that justice is done. Now I would like to see every one of those judges who handed down WRONGFUL CONVICTIONS apologise in person to the victims of these miscarriages of justice.

        I have knowledge of court procedures, and don't need your shortlist. I have sat in the public gallery enough times and listened to the holier-than-thou judges delivering their OPINIONS on people who have . I listened and watched as judges (in magistrate courts) being ALL EARS to the prosecution, the evident bias in their decisions as they convict people who were later exonerated. The big flowery words they use, as though they are infallible beings delivering the word of $YOURGOD. Not one of these mother fucking judges has ever been held to account.

        Parliament should act, and take this away from the judges completely: an act to overturn every one of these wrongful convictions, and a life lesson to the judges and prosecutors.

    3. Philo T Farnsworth Silver badge

      Re: The wheels of British so-called justice turn extremely slowly

      Hey, at least you Brits get inquiries.

      Here in the States we have a giant, one size fits all, rug under which we sweep out idiocies, injustices, and miscarriages.

      We're just getting around to apologizing for bombing and shelling Alaskan native villages over a hundred years ago1.

      Inquiries? Hah! The line forms to the right.

      ___________________

      1 The U.S. Army apologized to Wrangell clans for the 1869 bombardment of a village.

  6. Sparkus

    If true....

    Recover the funds from HM employees, managers, and directors salaries and pension plans. I 'suspect' that a list of those responsible for the persecution of Royal Mail employees is locked up, yet easily at hand.

    1. Macs1000

      Re: If true....

      What on earth has Royal Mail got to do with all this?

      1. IGotOut Silver badge

        Re: If true....

        Some people think Royal Mail and the Post Office are the same.

        Probably think the GPO do their broadband as well.

  7. MrGreen

    Where has £208M gone?

    The UK legal system. Another way to transfer your tax money to the rich elites.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Where has £208M gone?

      Someone I read recently writing on the various current inquiries (COVID, Post Office, tainted blood etc) commented that the UK seems to have generated an entire industry now based around these enquiries. May have been the same person how also described how that when reporting one of these enquiries one day they turned up and was about to sit down in the public/press area looking out over the room with the judge, witness stand, lead investigators team plus several rows of other legal people representing all the people affected by the enquiry when they realized they'd got of the lift on the wrong floor and this a different enquiry and they were meant to be in another similar room full of a similar number of highly paid legal teams.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Senior management got the big pay cheques

    They should also get the big prison terms.

    Otherwise it’s just victim blaming with paltry compensation.

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