back to article Mega city council's Oracle finance fix faces further delays

Further delays have hit Birmingham City Council's disastrous attempt to implement a functioning finance system after it emerged that off-the-shelf software to solve "one of the fundamental problems" with the beleaguered Oracle implementation has been put back. In a council audit committee meeting last week, an external auditor …

  1. Ball boy Silver badge

    Honesty with shareholders?

    Larry Ellison, if I recall, made a big thing of getting Birmingham City Council as a client during a shareholder briefing. Shirley it is a requirement for him to now make a statement in an earnings call to explain that this 'flagship' project is massively over budget and hugely delayed.

    I'm not suggesting it's Oracle's fault per se - but if you go around showing off about it and use it to help put the business in a positive light to investors then there must be an obligation to correct the record....

    1. Rameses Niblick the Third Kerplunk Kerplunk Whoops Where's My Thribble?

      Re: Honesty with shareholders?

      Surely the honesty need go no further than:

      "Look at how much money we're making off these rubes!"

      And the shareholders rejoice?

    2. TVU

      Re: Honesty with shareholders?

      As with the Edinburgh University fiasco, Oracle's performance leaves a lot to be desired. Hopefully, these two cases will serve as a warning to others.

      Indeed, one consulting company used the Edinburgh University experience as a case study in ERP project failure.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Honesty with shareholders?

        I've just asked a senior Edinburgh University person (with whom I am having breakfast) how their system have been going. Still doesn't work because lots of stuff needs to be done manually, I am told.

      2. old_n_grey
        Angel

        Re: Honesty with shareholders?

        "As with the Edinburgh University fiasco"

        A pity that successful Oracle implementations in universities are forgotten.

        And yes I have personal experience of one. Back in 1998 I was working for a large systems integrator and was the Oracle team lead at a leading university. We implemented R10.7 NCA (I think, it was a long time ago) as 11.0 was only released about a month before go-live. And who in their right mind ever implements a point zero release?

        We implemented GL, AR, AP, CE (Cash Management) & PO but failed to implement FA as the university had some peculiar requirements for that. There were also a number of bespoke processes and reports. I went back a couple of years or so later and got my hand dirty by implementing FA. There was a level of opposition to change, and a level of opposition to Oracle (it was thought to be too big - maybe it was but it was what we were contracted to supply). Despite a late start to the project it went live on the original go-live date.

        Did it work - yep! OK, maybe CE needed a lot of bespoke code around the edges to make it work, the standard module was crap!

        And for good measure, the university's internal IT team have upgraded the system over the years and it is still working 26 years after initial implementation.

        Perhaps it was a one-off. If so, I can only assume that it was due to my presence on the project as I subsequently led several successful Oracle ERP implementations in both the private and public sectors. Hence the icon, no point in being modest.

        Maybe I ought to come out of retirement and offer my services to the highest bidder ...

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Refunds

    Any chance of getting a refund from Oracle or the implementer ?

    I would ask if naming and shaming would work, but we know how that goes. Probably make them a shoe in for the next fuckup^H^H^H^H^H Project

    1. Lee D Silver badge

      Re: Refunds

      Like they draw up multi-million pound contracts with a vendor they've chosen that have any kind of back-out clause or refund for non-delivery.

      This is government. How are the middle men going to get their 20% if people can just ask for their money back when it goes TEN TIMES over budget with still no product in sight?

  3. This post has been deleted by its author

    1. Tom Chiverton 1 Silver badge

      Careful. That comment's likely to be a problem under the Online Safety Act, for El Reg...

      If you can go to jail for a Tweet about bombing an airport, how do you feel about advocating murder on a user-to-user communications service ?

      1. wolfetone Silver badge

        Unfortunately, you're quite right. So I withdraw it.

        I instead suggest that given BCC is a complete dumpster fire at the moment, they open up the Sea Life Centre and put it out.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          "Unfortunately, you're quite right. So I withdraw it."

          I sympathise over the loss of our free speech. I made a comment in another thread about the glory days of US assassins being long gone (in the sense of being able to actually make their hit), and promptly deleted it given the certainty of some thin skinned whiner kicking up a stink, or the authorities becoming involved.

  4. s. pam
    Devil

    Might as well put Muskyboy in chage

    Job's a goodone and he'll sort it out quickly...

    1. Tilda Rice

      Re: Might as well put Muskyboy in chage

      Go see a doctor. Seeing Trump and Musk in everything highlights the often juvenile perspective of this forum. Its bordering on a mental health issue as this point.

  5. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge

    Am I parsing this correctly: they've bought an off the shelf system for bank reconciliation, and it doesn't actually work? (After having giving up on a bespoke system for reconciliation, which also didn't work.)

    If so, what the hell is going on with their setup? Because while one failure could be written off as a bad implementation; two failures starts to look like a deeper problem.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "they've bought an off the shelf system for bank reconciliation, and it doesn't actually work?"

      It's Civica, not working is pretty much par for the course. And that's before we take in to account it's Civica Financials. I've used some bad software in my time but Civica Financials really does take the cake.

      1. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge

        I've just had a quick google. People on here are want to bemoan the lack of software for local government. Civica Financials claims to be exactly such a package - with "Deep Industry Expertise". If it's as bad as you say, no wonder people roll their own.

        Anyway, care to recommend an Oracle based system, in case the people in charge are reading...? Y'know, third time lucky...

        1. TVU

          I asked Sentient Sloth about the wisdom of using an Oracle based system and this was his response:

          https://tenor.com/en-GB/view/how-about-no-sloth-gif-11922211

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          AC from before. I work for a council, but not Birmingham, thank god. Civica Financials really is that bad. We managed to talk our Finance team out of a lot of their "customisations" on the basis of simplicity and cost so they have learned how to work with the system as designed. It still doesn't work very well. It's not intuitive to use either from the Finance side or as a budget holding manager, it doesn't play nicely with other systems, and patching and upgrades are so unbelievably complex, they are pretty much forcing you in to taking consultancy at £1,200 per day to do it for you. And we have a very knowledgeable and experienced team to do this and they struggle with it.

          And this really is the problem. There is software written specifically for local government use. However if you don't work in the Public Sector, you probably won't have any experience of any of these people: Civica, Capita (ok maybe that one), Access, NEC, IDOX. They all know they only have one or two competitors and the effort it takes to change from one to another is extremely significant that they really don't give a damn. So the software is frighteningly expensive (usually in the region of six or even seven figures per year just in licencing), then support is extra, as is hosting if you're not hosting it yourself and the inevitable consultancy days.

          I say regularly that the IT staffers in the public sector are generally some of the more knowledgeable and decent, hard-working people I've ever worked with, but the conditions they have to work under and the tools they are given are laughable.

          1. Loudon D'Arcy

            Australian ERP software

            > However if you don't work in the Public Sector, you probably won't have any experience of any of these people: Civica, Capita (ok maybe that one), Access, NEC, IDOX.

            Australian software companies who specialise in local government ERP systems don't seem to be on anyone's radar in the northern hemisphere...

            CouncilFirst

            TechnologyOne

            ReadyTech

            ...which is a shame if they're delivering a better product than the usual suspects.

          2. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge

            It's nice to have someone who knows things from the inside contributing. Thanks.

        3. UnknownUnknown

          3rd Lightning strike. I’m sure there are many more.

          https://www.theregister.com/AMP/2025/01/27/west_sussex_oracle_assets/

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Civica

        I worked at a new school build that was managed by Civica.

        We wanted some new PCs - if we bought direct from Dell (I had an account manager from a previous employment) - £240 each

        But no, we had to buy from Civica, who bought from a "preferred supplier", who bought from Dell.

        The cost £420 each. For the same PC.

        However, Civica would allow us to buy direct, but they would have to charge us fees for processing. And guess how much it would cost.....

  6. Dizzy Dwarf

    A Mega city doesn't have a council

    It has a Grand Hall of Justice

  7. tmTM

    Petition to rename City Hall 'The Big Top'

    To more accurately represent the daily clown show performed there.

  8. ComicalEngineer
    FAIL

    There are plenty of councils whose systems are not in this dire state with regards to finances and auditing, that's not to say that the others are perfect, but they are at least sufficiently functional for the auditors to do their job of ensuring financial probity.

    Most (if not all) city and county councils do the same functions and therefore it should be relatively simple to identify the ERP systems that are working well and implement them in Birmingham. Once the model is written and proven working it can be rolled out and becomes a matter of scale rather than implementation.

    Perhaps it's time for government to mandate a particular system which has been proven elsewhere in the country as the definitve system for use by large councils.

    Ok, it's a dream, because I doubt that the government has the knowledge or ability to make such a decision.

    1. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge
    2. LybsterRoy Silver badge

      This or very similar suggestions have been made many times here. Maybe the solution is to give our PM and Chancellor plus Brum's Councillors a subscription to elReg and then stand over them to make sure they read it.

    3. Jonathon Green

      “There are plenty of councils whose systems are not in this dire state with regards to finances and auditing, that's not to say that the others are perfect, but they are at least sufficiently functional for the auditors to do their job of ensuring financial probity.”

      …and many of them are probably looking at the likes of Birmingham in terror as the platforms which their current (stable, reliable, satisfactory) solutions were built on have been end-of-lifed by vendors leaving them faced with either exorbitant fees for extended support or simply having the plug pulled.

  9. hairydog

    Exceptionality fails again

    What, exactly, does Birmingham Council do that every other council in the country does mot do? I accept that Birmingham is bigger than other authorities, but they don't seem to have more responsibilities than smaller authorities.

    So why can't they buy/lease/hire a clone of a working system, rather than reinvent the (square) wheel yet again?

    1. Like a badger

      Re: Exceptionality fails again

      For a start, because nobody knows which unitary local authorities have a public sector ERP system that works adequately. There's a moderate amount of benchmarks for particular services and overall performance, but not much for what you and I would consider efficiency and IT benchmarks. The government abolished its own local government monitor (Oflog) and removed requirements on local authorities to maintain consistent and comparable data, so there's no transparency on who has IT that works acceptably well, is secure, scaleable and has reasonable costs. I also doubt that any who are in that position will want to trumpet it, for the very reasonable fear of having all their IT staff headhunted, whether by other councils or IT contractors.

      1. Handlebars

        Re: Exceptionality fails again

        I wouldn't fancy getting headhunted by Brum just now.

  10. Tron Silver badge

    Waiting for Godot.

    Maybe it is time to give up. By the time they get it working, all the admin and fiscal rules will have changed and several parts of it will be EOL. They may as well just start negotiating with Oracle for the replacement to Operation Fusion.

  11. fnusnu

    The whole system of local government is too complex for the intellectual capabilities of local councillors.

    What's needed is for them to do less and to leave money in the taxpayer's pocket.

    1. Richard 12 Silver badge

      The real problem councils have is that for the last 15 years the list of things they're required to do by law increased every year while the money to actually do it fell.

      Combine that with the near total lack of oversight as local journalists lost their jobs, and you get things like Teeside where a pair of businessmen are fleecing the local authority for hundreds of millions, this, and almost every council on the verge of bankruptcy.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Be inetersting to see who from Brum Council ends up working at Oracle.

  13. bregister

    again?

    "It also plans to reimplement Oracle "out-of-the-box" in 2026"

    What does re-implement mean?

    1. hammarbtyp

      Re: again?

      "What does re-implement mean?"

      It means that Larry can start planning on buying that new Hawaiian island he's got his eye on

  14. The man with a spanner

    I have absolutly no knowlege of this type of system nor local government operations.

    Observations:

    1) All the local authorities have pretty much the same functions, with a little bit of variation around the edges.Though the scale varies.

    2) Local authoraties have a variety of activities that you dont get in the commercial world, as well as some that definatly do occur such as payroll.

    What we need is for a group of authorities to band together to form a Civic System Development Group set up as a Cooperative organisation owned by its members. They would be an arms length organisation and be tasked with developing a functional set of interlocking systems, and providing the training and ongoing development

    1. Like a badger

      Problem number 1: If you're a local authority that's well run and have working systems, you won't need or want to pony up. If however you're an incompetent and badly run authority with messed up IT, then you won't have either the money or the sense to do this.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Ha!.....Cash Management!!

    Quote: "....cash management system....."

    Yes...absolutely.....but no mention of WHOSE CASH!!!!

    Candidates would include Larry Ellison!

    Unfortunately Birmingham tax payers also need to manage their cash......

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