back to article Microsoft vet laments a world where even toothbrushes need reboots

Remember when things didn't need constant updating and reboots to work? Veteran Microsoft engineer Raymond Chen notes that the affliction has even spread as far as the humble electric toothbrush. "My electric toothbrush was acting up," he said. "The internet says that I needed to reboot my electric toothbrush." "Pretty much …

  1. abend0c4 Silver badge

    This, we're told, is progress

    The problem, ultimately, is not that we're told this, but that we accept what we're told because we want it to be true, despite the evidence to the contrary.

    1. that one in the corner Silver badge

      Re: This, we're told, is progress

      > we accept what we're told because we want it to be true

      Speak for yourself!

      I'll admit when I've gone for the least worst option and lament that it does not represent "progress" outside of the minds of the cabal of marketeers.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: This, we're told, is progress

      It is progress. Sadly the progress is planned obsoletion and subscription based services.

      How did they get people to subscribe to a service to write letters on your own computer or edit photos? (365/Adobe) Sure there are alternatives but I can imagine a lot of people pay for it.

      The thing is this subscription model is seeping into everything in life. It's not even funny anymore. In my spare time I tinker with RPi and electronics and I find myself having to wade through tutorials that require me to sign up for a "free" service to use them. I'm lucky because I can duplicate whatever service it is myself or use different options but there will be a vast majority that can't and will eventually end up paying for these services that start off as "free".

      Where will it all end? We already pay for water so the next logical step is an air subscription or tax. Worlds gone mad.

      1. Kevin Johnston

        Re: This, we're told, is progress

        In most cases they got away with pushing the subscription route because people either would not believe an alternative product could be as good or else that changing would mean many hours of re-learning and then conversion of their old files.

        This is reinforced by forums social media spamming out complete gibberish to keep those clicks coming so that the poor punter has no clue what the real world situation actually is.

        1. I could be a dog really Silver badge

          Re: This, we're told, is progress

          Well when we look at the two biggest businesses involved, Adobe and Microsoft, we see two different routes taken.

          With Adobe, it has to be said that they got to where they did by producing good quality tools that people wanted to use. The "build a better mousetrap" route. As a result, their products became the de-facto standard in the creative industry - to the point where you could use the Creative Suite products (yes, I remember when they were separate products), hand over your InDesign file to the print shop and they'd be able to handle it. They were pretty good at supporting different file formats as well - unlike the main competitor for InDesign, Quark Xpress which deliberately did not support working between even minor versions of it's own formats (i.e. if you have version 3.2, and your print shop does some tweaks with version 3.3, you cannot open the version 3.3 file and they cannot save it in version 3.2 format).

          So eventually they had a very dominant position and were able to blackmail the industry into paying for subscriptions and drop all perpetual licences - if you are in that business, you won't last long without an up to date Creative Suite, hence you can't afford to not pay.

          Microsoft is a different matter. I don't think anyone would describe any of their products as "best in class". What they do have is a broad spread of "good enough" products, which are stuck together with a good dose of gaffer tape behind the scenes to look like thiy are an integrated suite. Where they had a gap, they'd buy up a smaller outfit to fill it - e.g. Skype, Outlook, Visio (ever wondered why they had a different look and feel ?). But they also employed illegal (proven in court, multiple times) tactics to kill competition. For file and print, Windows Server was not "the best", but by killing off the competition (by making Windows on the desktop work badly with anything else) they made it the only practical option. They show disdain for open standards and formats, and do everything they can to prevent competition. All I can say is that a lot of businesses, from small outfits right up to governments will eventually regret putting all their eggs into a basket run by a company that wants to make it as hard and painful as possible to switch your eggs to another basket.

          But in both cases, and especially Microsoft, the "conversion of their old files" bit is the killer. With MS, doing that is effectively impossible. While some of that will be inevitable, a lot will be by design.

      2. big_D Silver badge

        Re: This, we're told, is progress

        And they can put in price creep as well. We don't have freeview satellite at the new flat, so we have TV over IP... 250 channels for 9.99€ a month, only it has gone up to 11.99€ this month...

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: This, we're told, is progress

        "It is progress."

        No, this kind of BS has actual name: It is *regress*: The opposite of progress.

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: This, we're told, is progress

          And here I thought congress was the opposite of progress.

          1. Dr_N

            Re: This, we're told, is progress

            Congress normally involves people getting screwed.

    3. big_D Silver badge

      Re: This, we're told, is progress

      I never saw any benefit in most IoT products.

      Is my toothbrush cleaning properly? I have a nice Philips Sonicare (non-smart) toothbrush and I can feel whether it is cleaning properly.

      An IoT dishwasher or washing machine? I still need to manually load it, so I can press the start button when I close the door - or in the case of the washing machine, I hit the "finish in" button and tell it to be finished by the time I get home from work. No need to open my network up to possible botnets to start it by smartphone at work (erm, did I remember to put in the washing powder & conditioner before I left? Oh, the door isn't closed properly anyway!)

      The big problem is the manufacturers get the IoT bug and supply updates and security patches for 2-3 years (if you are lucky) for a product that should last for 10-20 years... Why bother paying extra for that functionality, if you need to turn it off after 18 months anyway (because you bought the device halfway through its support cycle)?

      I bought a "smartTV" in 2016. It is still going strong, but it hasn't been connected to the network since 2017... It has had 3 FireTVs and, currently, an AppleTV plugged into it, providing the smarts, since then. Replacing a perfectly functioning, $1,500 TV every 18 months, just because the "smart" part has become lobotomised is plain silly. Buy a good quality display and plug "cheap" smarts into it that get replaced every couple of years, when their support runs out.

      My daughter's TV was even worse, she bought a Sony Bravia in 2017, 6 months later Sony pulled all the apps from the TV (no more Netflex or Prime)... After 6 months!

      Sorry, no, I'll stick to dumb devices and add a cheap, smart black box, where it makes sense...

    4. druck Silver badge
      Holmes

      Re: This, we're told, is progress

      When you are young you think anything new must be better, anything different must be better, and anyone disagreeing is just old.

      When you are older you have the wisdom to know that everything new or different isn't always better.

      If you don't get wise by the time you get old, there isn't really much hope for you.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: This, we're told, is progress

        "When you are older you have the wisdom to know that everything new or different isn't always better."

        There's a saying that 95% of everything is crap. Now, some of the stuff you use, is not crap, which means the new stuff has *even more than 95%* of crap.

        With that kind of odds, who even bothers to look new crap?

        By default it's crap if it's new.

  2. Primus Secundus Tertius

    Programmers not very good

    In my career as a programmer, I felt that many of my colleagues were not very good. Management made that worse by their drive to get it sold rather than get it right. I fear for a future where AI writes and tests software.

    Bring back flowcharts - the two dimensional analysis of the logic.

    1. that one in the corner Silver badge

      Re: Programmers not very good

      Not convinced I want to go back to dragging out the flowchart template all the time (those got pretty big), but I wished[1] people would draw out more data structures by hand, in full, cons cells and back links, even if they are a bit rough'n'ready.

      Tip: when a colleague shows you a complex system as a single side of A4 (worse, A3) covered in dense UML, print out a copy with a few quick changes (reverse an arrow, change a 1:n to an n:n ...) and see how long it takes for anyone to realise it is now gibberish! So many people can generate those damn things in one tool or another but that can not actually *read* them!

      [1] out of that now

      1. MrBanana

        Complex system charts

        I was once in a business to customer presentation, where the overall goal was well understood, the solution a basic modular approach, should have been a simple pitch. When the proposed architecture diagram was thrown on the screen, I noticeably yelped in shock. Heads turned, I'm sorry I squeaked. If we were in an IMAX theatre, with binoculars, then it might have made some sense. But it was IBM, so it didn't make sense. There were 13 product specialists in the room. They each owned 7.7% of that chart, and by god they were going to tell you about it.

  3. Mentat74
    Facepalm

    How else...

    How else are those companies going to force their customers to buy a new one ?

    How else will those companies be able to spy on all of their customers ?

    How else will they train their 'A.I.' if not for grabbing ALL of your personal data...

    1. gnasher729 Silver badge

      Re: How else...

      I often read this argument, but if my toothbrush stops working because of a software problem, which is the one brand that I will never, ever buy?

      1. NapTime ForTruth

        Re: How else...

        Probably the same brand, not because it's good or because you want to, but because its lowest price/highest volume targeting won the market and there aren't any real competitors left.

        As an example, see Microsoft, et al. Also, the volume of mobile device competitors: Apple or Goog-Android-le, your choice. Both reliably suck, and both reliably profile you at very high resolution and sell you...er, I mean "your data". (Yes, even if they pinky swear that they don't.)

        1. Gene Cash Silver badge

          Re: How else...

          > its lowest price/highest volume targeting won the market

          Yep. I see people buying the cheapest shittiest crap and then complaining it's cheap shit crap.

          Then they have the audacity to complain when I buy a laser printer instead of an inkjet, or an Aerostich jacket instead of whatever shit's on sale at Target or Walmart.

          1. IGotOut Silver badge

            Re: How else...

            But my first electric toothbrush cost £30. It lasted almost 20 years.

            My current one cost the same.

            It's now 5 years old.

            Somehow I don't think a friend £145 one (down from £250, so clearly a bargain!) will still be going as long.

            The benefits.

            His connects to an app for a timer!

            Mine vibrates differently every 30 seconds.

            The app can tell him he's brushing to hard or to soft

            My nerves tell me that.

            The app tells you when the brush is worn out.

            My eyes tell me that.

            The ONLY advantage it has, is a better battery BUT he says "it only takes an hour to charge, not 8".

            My reply "How many times a day do you clean your teeth".

            Sometimes cheaper is better.

            Oh, my £150 14 year old TV is still going strong thanks.

          2. elkster88
            Coat

            Re: How else...

            Upvoted for mentioning Aerostich. Quality, and it's not cheap, but makes up for it by being durable and repairable.

            I'm on my third Roadcrafter 1-piece, only because #2 got stolen in Pisa before what was to be an epic trip through the Dolomites.

            Icon is obviously me getting my R3...

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: How else...

            "I see people buying the cheapest shittiest crap and then complaining it's cheap shit crap."

            Perhaps they're poor and don't have the capital.

            Because buying expensive crap is even worse and you know what? Price and quality have zero connection nowadays.

            Nike's shoes are a very good example: Basically every one of them costs about $5 per pair at factory in China. The only difference is the selling price, i.e. amount of profit.

  4. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

    Read the original

    Especially this comment...

  5. JimmyPage
    Linux

    You should never need to reboot a machine.

    was a axiom I learned 40 years ago. You should know which element is misbehaving and be able to reload it live.

    If you can't then it's not really a very good operating system.

    Nothing in the past 40 has changed that fact. The only thing that has changed is the lack of skills needed to make it true.

    It's easier to reboot than to research.

    1. cyberdemon Silver badge
      Devil

      Re: You should never need to reboot a machine.

      There are two things which can't be reloaded without a reboot:

      The static-linked part of the kernel i.e. you can update kernel modules without rebooting, but not the kernel itself. (Ok there is kexec, but i'd be surprised/interested if anyone uses that in production)

      Then there is PID 0 (init) which can't be killed on a UNIX/Linux system

      Both of these need to be made as simple as possible to avoid the need for reboots

      And that's why I find it so perverse that PID 0 is picking up so much bloat in systemd

      1. m4r35n357 Silver badge

        Re: You should never need to reboot a machine.

        systemd is M$ fanboy-ism, so Mr Chen as a "vet" is culpable for that in addition to the toothbush.

        1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

          Re: You should never need to reboot a machine.

          Aw, no. Somehow not really done well enough in comparison.

          Server 2022, running right now here: Pid 0, "Idle", 8k. Dunny why 8k, possibly due to power-saving code parts? Pid 4, System, 148k.

          Windows 11 24h2: Pid 0, "Idle", 8k. Pid 4, System 12 k.

          W888888888888!!!! SMALLER? (See me a bit shocked here)........ ... Looks like they kicked a lot more stuff out of the "system" from 21h2 to 24h2. Could that be a reason for that bad performance? More stuff kicked out of ring 0 (and ring -1) by force? If yes: Why does MS not communicate it clearly? I could accept the bad performance a lot better if I'd known such a big change was below the surface from 21h2 to 24h2.

          I'd have to ask my contact about that....

          1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

            Re: You should never need to reboot a machine.

            That mentioned Server 2022 (my laptop), Pid 4, System, is now at 20 k? I did not reboot, and actually been using it. I think I have to statistic it to see what correlates... Once I have time. Where is the bank with the grey men when you need them...

            1. BFeely

              Re: You should never need to reboot a machine.

              Looking at this reply it would appear your Server 2022 also has virtualization based security, and only a tiny memory window exists to read syscalls. The reduction might be that you stressed your memory and the blocks that the kernel isn't using got swapped out.

          2. BFeely

            Re: You should never need to reboot a machine.

            Is there a "Secure System" process in your Task Manager? That would explain System being so small, as it likely exists only to act as an interface between the user-kernel syscall interface and the virtual machine running the kernel.

            1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

              Re: You should never need to reboot a machine.

              There is, on all those machines. But all machines (well, those with more than 8 GB) have Hyper-V active anyway, and the Defender.

              However there are also two Zotac pico 335i around (Generation with 4 GB RAM / 32 GB internal storage / Atom dualcore / When Win8 was new) which I run without defender and without Hyper-V, but with GUI Server 2022. It is surprising how SMB Compression even goes to 150 MB/s even with those. Local storage is maxed out at 130 MB/s. They are used as NAS, although without defender there is enough RAM to run a browser - but that is not fun on those CPUs.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: You should never need to reboot a machine.

        > Then there is PID 0 (init) which can't be killed on a UNIX/Linux system

        While init/systemd (PID 1) can't be killed, there is no reason a well designed one couldn't include an option to exec the updated version.

        > Both of these need to be made as simple as possible to avoid the need for reboots

        Very true, since the death of PID1 is fatal to the kernel it should be as minimalist as possible, it's job is to issue wait(2) calls for orphans. The rest of the functionality needs to move out somewhere else.The bigger the thing gets, the more bugs it will contain and the bigger the risk of it dying with system fatal consequences.

        1. James Marten
          Go

          Re: You should never need to reboot a machine.

          > While init/systemd (PID 1) can't be killed, there is no reason a well designed one couldn't include an option to exec the updated version.

          Isn't that what systemctl daemon-reexec does? The restarted systemd still continues as PID 1, though.

          Not sure whether this is possible with classic SysV init.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: You should never need to reboot a machine.

            "Not sure whether this is possible with classic SysV init"

            AFAIK it isn't. Then again, it's not something that's frequently updated to spread its tentacles wider and wider into the system nor to fix such of its bugs as haven't been marked EWONTFIX. That's the benefit of following the KISS principle.

        2. aaronmdjones

          Re: You should never need to reboot a machine.

          > While init/systemd (PID 1) can't be killed, there is no reason a well designed one couldn't include an option to exec the updated version.

          Both of those exist.

          # telinit u

          # systemctl daemon-reexec

    2. ITMA Silver badge
      Devil

      Re: You should never need to reboot a machine.

      I've been on a class 360 train heading in to Liverpool St which ground to a halt.

      After a short delay there was an announcement by the driver that he was "rebooting the train".

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: You should never need to reboot a machine.

        If it was a 360 shouldn't that have been IPL?

        1. ITMA Silver badge
          Devil

          Re: You should never need to reboot a machine.

          That depends if we are talking about the same thing?

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_360

        2. Antron Argaiv Silver badge
          Alert

          Re: You should never need to reboot a machine.

          What? No "IBM" icon?

        3. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

          Re: You should never need to reboot a machine.

          If it was a 360 shouldn't that have been IPL?

          #cp ipl 430

          (one of the few CMS/VM commands that I can remember from my mis-spent yoof as a TPF programmer - it booted up a TPF test system in my terminal session)

  6. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    The internet did exist 40 years ago. The web didn't but if bootable toothbrushes had existed there'd have been a place to discuss them, maybe something like alt.health.toothbrush

    1. jake Silver badge

      Indeed.

      The Internet had already put a huge dent in the BBS world by then.

      In 1985? More likely it would have been net.sex.stories.toothbrush ... The Great Renaming was 1987.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Toothbrush porn?

        1. Sorry that handle is already taken. Silver badge

          Well... Functionally, an electric toothbrush is very closely related to certain toys of an adult persuasion.

        2. jake Silver badge

          In the early days of Usenet, there weren't all that many news groups. If a group had the word "toothbrush" in it, you would have used it for general discussion and possibly stealth binaries[0], regardless of what the name suggested.

          As for your question ... a couple of my ex-girlfriends often used their electric toothbrushes without an actual brush. They were among the first of the commonly available induction charged handhelds. Stealth sex toys, as it were. I never saw any porn of this on Usenet, mainly because I never looked (porn on the flat screen has never done anything for me) ... but I'm sure it existed, because it was fairly common in RealLife. Or perhaps I dated the freaks of the era, which is quite possible.

          Note that I am in no way intending to kink-shame anybody reading this. Follow your bliss!

          [0] Pics of control board upgrades, switch rebuilding and replacement, electric motor rewinding (un-balancing?), battery changing, etc.

        3. Tim99 Silver badge

          Rule 34? Probably not a good web search.

  7. b0llchit Silver badge
    FAIL

    Reboots are not free

    ...a stranger in an online forum suggesting that a toothbrush must be rebooted to make it work would have been laughable...

    Ehm, would have been??? It still is a preposterous proposition.

    This is technology run amok just to make a couple of cents profit. You know, it will fry you or/and your offspring, one way or another in the (near) future.

  8. navarac Silver badge

    Mental

    I'd (re)boot the item straight in the rubbish bin, if I'd been stupid enough to buy an internet connected toothbrush in the first place.

    1. An_Old_Dog Silver badge

      Re: Mental

      ... or bought an alarm clock, while knowing* that setting it required me to create an account with the manufacturer, download and install an app onto my phone, and use the app.

      *These requirements frequently are not listed on the box. If I had bought such a device, I would have returned it and got my money back. "All your sleep pattern data are belong to us for resale." / "We have to raise your insurance rates because we believe you have unhealthy sleep patterns." Though they will never say this, nor where the insurance company obtained their data, so you cannot explain that you have an odd-hours job, nor can you get your insurance premium lowered back down ... all according to plan.

      Similarly, with an Internet-connected toothbrush, "All your dental health data are belong to us ..."

      (I never have owned or used an electric toothbrush, let alone a computerised-, or Internet-connected-toothbrush. What possible consumer benefit is there from using such a thing?)

      1. Sandtitz Silver badge
        Happy

        Re: Mental

        "I never have owned or used an electric toothbrush, let alone a computerised-, or Internet-connected-toothbrush. What possible consumer benefit is there from using such a thing?"

        (Old) dogs have a higher pH which helps keep their teeth healthier and brushing is very much optional for them.

        To answer your question, electric tootbrushes "remove more plaque and reduce gingival inflammation more than manual toothbrushes."

        1. that one in the corner Silver badge

          Re: Mental

          > To answer your question, electric tootbrushes[1]...

          Electric toothbrushes can do good.

          Electronic toothbrushes might do better, maintaining motor speed and recharging the battery.

          Computerised toothbrushes are an absurdity.

          [1] perhaps he had just read the story about the phone farts?

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Mental

          "remove more plaque"

          ... according to my dentist that's actually true, at least when applied to me, sample size = 1. Less tartar last time than in previous times (6 month periodic checkup).

          Who would have thought?

      2. Zoopy

        Re: Mental

        I had a very marked improvement in dental health once I start using electric toothbrushes.

        I mean this to my dental hygienist once, and he said he sees a very clear trend in the teeth of those who do and don't use electrics.

        I encourage you to give it a shot.

        1. Bebu sa Ware
          Windows

          Re: Mental

          «I had a very marked improvement in dental health once I start using electric toothbrushes.»

          Ditto. Especially gum health.

          «I encourage you to give it a shot.»

          Do.

          I never noticed any difference between the ~AUD25 and the ~AUD100 models (neither required rebooting.)

          The only complaints are that each brush head is about AUD5 (20% of the handle) and the NiMH are not replaceable when they cease to hold a charge.

          Having taken a hacksaw to $25 one I could see there isn't much to see - certainly no Pi Pico. I imagine an analogue switching circuit to control the electromechanical side and a 2 minute timer - the charging circuit is probably very basic only turns off the brush motor when charging.

          I suppost I could remove the dead cell and wire up a USB socket and run it off 2A USB power pack.

          I noticed a good while ago the corresponding devices for rebooting things in the bedroom department were already heading down that slippery slope. Already incorporating a WiFi or BT interface and I suppose a phone app to control the various parameters of pleasure available.

          Rebooting I should think the Windows startup audio and the extended boot time might be bit of a passion killer.

      3. Bill Gray

        Re: Mental

        What possible consumer benefit is there from using [an electric toothbrush]?

        That was my thought for about fifty years of my life. Couldn't imagine why one would use such a thing. My dentist nudged me strongly in that direction; I eventually gave it a try.

        The improvement in dental health is quite noticeable. I think it's a combination of reasons. The motor does a somewhat better job of cleaning. With less wrist involvement, I can usually hold a book in the other hand or do some other activity with it, which makes me much more likely to brush for the recommended two minutes. With a manual, the motion of the brush-holding hand makes the "off" hand less steady. Would recommend to a friend, or to a fellow commentard.

        (Though this is a simple electric toothbrush. Why it would be connected to anything except an electrical outlet for recharging, I can't imagine.)

      4. I could be a dog really Silver badge

        Re: Mental

        ... or bought an alarm clock, while knowing* that setting it required me to create an account with the manufacturer, download and install an app onto my phone, and use the app.

        *These requirements frequently are not listed on the box. If I had bought such a device, I would have returned it and got my money back.

        Indeed they are not, and I too would be returning it - that could be an interesting conversation ...

        But my concern would not only be about what information might be exfiltrated (how do I know it doesn't also have a microphone ?), but also how long it will keep working. As Revolv users found out, suppliers can, and do, turn off infrastructure that's essential for a lot of this IoTat stuff to work.

  9. jake Silver badge

    The term bootstrapping, or booting for short ...

    ... has been used since the early 1950s, at least for computers. It was certainly in use everywhere[0] by the mid 1960s, when I started seriously paying attention. I've got a couple sets of system test decks that my Father wrote in the early 1950s where the IPL card has BOOTSTRAP written across it with what appears to be a Magic Marker.

    For electric circuits in general, the term goes back at least another decade, and probably to WWII, at least according to Dad.

    Albeit for small values of "everywhere", at least by today's standards.

    1. gnasher729 Silver badge

      Re: The term bootstrapping, or booting for short ...

      There was Baron von Münchausen who reportedly pulled himself out of a swamp by his own bootstraps (shoelaces but stronger). Which is where the term bootstrapping comes from.

      1. Sandtitz Silver badge

        Re: The term bootstrapping, or booting for short ...

        Münchhausen pulled himself - and his horse - out by his pigtail.

        1. Falmari Silver badge

          Re: The term bootstrapping, or booting for short ...

          You are right he pulled himself out by his hair.

          I thought the term bootstrapping came from the phrase "pull yourself up by your bootstraps"

      2. IvyKing Bronze badge

        Re: The term bootstrapping, or booting for short ...

        I remembering hearing about bootstrapping coming from the Baron von Münchhausen story - this was in the early 1970's.

    2. Mark #255

      Re: The term bootstrapping, or booting for short ...

      I have vague memories of a novel (possibly Alistair MacLean?) where the protagonist had a fall while rock climbing, and ended up dangling in free air at the end of the rope, due to an overhang. He boot-strapped back up the rope to eventually regain the cliff face to continue his climb.

  10. Andy Non Silver badge
    Coat

    My local hospital rebooted me!

    My ticker was permanently in afibrillation so they stopped my heart and started it again with a bloody great electric shock. Unfortunately it didn't work. I got additional hardware in the end... a pacemaker. Just hope it doesn't run on Windows.

    1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

      Re: My local hospital rebooted me!

      I hope it does not run ANY "OS", but a simple-straight circuit with as few components as possible. But who am I kiddin' - pray that it is tested like NASA tested their software over 50 years ago. But Who am I kiddin'...

      1. Andy Non Silver badge

        Re: My local hospital rebooted me!

        Pretty sure it does run an OS as it also records lots of stats about my heart + breathing and communicates them wirelessly to a box of tricks next to my bed which uploads them directly to the hospital.

        1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

          Re: My local hospital rebooted me!

          That reads pretty much like the entry scene of an Ghost In The Shell episode... Ishikawa, Boma or Kusagani searching for a way to hack into the Hospital, and you are the gateway.

          1. An_Old_Dog Silver badge

            IoT Network Gateways

            ... and succeed, because the radio chip in pacemaker had a dormant, passwordless, mesh wireless networking feature.

        2. that one in the corner Silver badge

          Re: My local hospital rebooted me!

          > communicates them wirelessly

          As a Norwegian security researcher found, easily read (2015, BBC Could hackers break my heart via my pacemaker? "She discovered it had not one, but two wireless interfaces.").

          And, of course, they have been - less than perfect (2017, BBC Cyber-flaw affects 745,000 pacemakers).

          Have we improved in the years since? I've got to go out to the opticians now, so if anyone else wants to start <insert preferred search engine here>ing...

          1. gnasher729 Silver badge

            Re: My local hospital rebooted me!

            The problem here is that the people creating the pacemaker and its software are good decent people who want to save lives and some bag of shit trying to hurt their patients is just completely outside their imagination. “Nobody would do that, it could hurt the patient”.

            On the other hand the people writing the software for my banking app think it’s quite natural for criminals to try to steal my money, so they will have a totally different attitude.

            1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

              Re: My local hospital rebooted me!

              Dev case in point:

              We had an air-source heat pump install just over a year ago - had consistent low-flow errors (which meant that the ASHP needed to be powered down, wait 30 seconds, power back up) every few weeks once the weather got cold.

              Supplier changed the pump control board, no more low-flow errors.. (the pump itself then died but that was a separate issue and they replaced it quickly).

              Turns out it's a classic case of devs not talking to each other or reading documentation.

              The pump controller was set up to dynamically adjust the flow rate, depending on load. So, when the load was low, it would reduce the flow rate considerably. To the extent that the low-flow sensor would kick in, bringing everything to a halt, needing a power down to fix it. The control board devs had obviously not bothered to check the documentation for the flow sensor board and had set the limits too low.

              And no, the board was't field-updatable, needed to be physically replaced.

              So about 3 weeks with no heating, all because the devs didn't bother to read the specs of the other parts of the system.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: My local hospital rebooted me!

              "On the other hand the people writing the software for my banking app think it’s quite natural for criminals to try to steal my money, "

              Correction: Bank is worried about criminals stealing *their* money. They are the ones who steal your money.

    2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: My local hospital rebooted me!

      So turning it off and on again didn't work? So you had to replace the hardware

      1. doublelayer Silver badge

        Re: My local hospital rebooted me!

        Although some electric toothbrushes might be complex enough that turning them off and on again is both possible and helpful, it's likely that most of them are still relatively dumb and aren't going to break like that. That might mean that power cycling them isn't really possible because you'd have to physically disconnect and reconnect the battery which is sealed in, and that the problem you're experiencing wouldn't be fixed by doing so anyway. In that case, it wasn't that the reboot failed, but that the thing was just broken. It's frequent to try a power cycle when anything goes wrong, but sometimes, the problem isn't going to be solved by doing that.

  11. jake Silver badge

    Everything needing an OS and connectivity is daft.

    A couple of years ago I was looking for an inexpensive simple blood pressure monitor. Most of them on the market at the time seemed to require an internet connection or "smart phone" in order to work. Why? All I need is a simple sys/dia/pulse output, oxy optional.

    Fortunately, I found a source for the broken/worn out tiny pressure transducer in my decade old (older?) unit. Simple soldering job, and it works again. Hopefully in another ten years this whole "must be internet (or phone) connected to work" fad will have blown itself out. Or I'll just replace the transducer again ... they shipped me four units for the price of one, so I taped the spares inside the case.

    1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

      Re: Everything needing an OS and connectivity is daft.

      Does it have an 16MB SD card, formatted FAT16 short file name, as log? Not micro, normal SD card? If yes: Perfect score!

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: Everything needing an OS and connectivity is daft.

        No. It has a single 16 pin DIP for RAM where it stores 100 records (the readings, and the date and time). I have no idea what format they are stored in, nor the actual size of the RAM. The only way to get the data out (other than with pencil and paper) is with an early form of bluetooth. Supposedly there was an app that ran on Windows, but I don't have a copy[0]. I can access the data with Linux and a little scripting if I need to, but frankly I have no real need to record it. The RAM is big enough for a circular buffer that holds 100 records.

        [0] Of the app, or of the necessary Windows ... Just to remove the ambiguity.

        1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

          Re: Everything needing an OS and connectivity is daft.

          No serial access ? 9600/8/N/1 RTS/CTS ?

    2. aaronmdjones

      Re: Everything needing an OS and connectivity is daft.

      You're looking for an Omron M2 Basic. They're still available on Amazon for less than £30.

  12. neilg

    I seem to recall

    it comes from picking oneself up by ones own bootstraps

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Bloatware economy

    Petabytes of internet traffic and users' time would be saved if we had less bloatware. Growing electricity costs in data centers? - here an easy fix.

    Instead of putting an unused app to sleep and frequently downloading it's updates, why don't you ask me to disable or remove it?

  14. xyz Silver badge

    insert Linux Mint joke here...

    + what f***wit goes out and buys a web enabled toothbrush? Do you have to have an app on your phone? Does the toothbrush stop working if the toothpaste tube gets low? etc

  15. captain veg Silver badge

    Microsoft vet

    I didn't know Microsoft employed vets. Is it to look after the mice?

    -A.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Microsoft vet

      Or the marketing weasels?

      1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

        Re: Microsoft vet

        No, Raymond Chen is indeed one of the top Microsoft programmers. If you work with Explorer on a fileserver with UAC active (which it always should be, highest setting) you notice that the explorer, even when started from a CMD with admin rights, never is running with admin rights. And therefore does not let you enter some directories you can with Total Commander or Free Commander when run with admin rights. That is his fault - he pushed, for security reasons, that explorer is never running with admin rights unless for some specific actions which you have to confirm.

        If you read his other posts on his blog you will see his quality. But he cannot code everything in Windows, not humanly possible.

        Check Daves Garage on youtube for those long interviews of Raymond Chen and Dave Cutler.

        1. druck Silver badge

          Re: Microsoft vet

          I think the word you want to use is veteran, which is often shorted to vet in the US, but in the UK is more commonly short for veterinarian.

          1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

            Re: Microsoft vet

            Citing article, first paragraph, second line: "Veteran Microsoft engineer Raymond Chen"

            Nobody, who read the article, should think of him as a pet doctor in that context. So either you did not read the article at all, or something else is wrong with you.

            1. captain veg Silver badge

              Re: Microsoft vet

              Well, first of all I'm a Brit, and el Reg is British, and secondly it was for comic effect.

              -A.

              1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

                Re: Microsoft vet

                You have to mark irony as such. You know, Mr. Orange just got elected for a second term. You have to mark irony, jokes and for "comic effect" since everything, no matter how stupid, can get real.

              2. jake Silver badge

                Re: Microsoft vet

                "and el Reg is British"

                Are you certain about that? Have you ever read what ElReg has to say about itself?

                https://www.theregister.co.uk/Profile/about_the_register/

                The first line reads "The Register is a leading and trusted global online enterprise technology news publication, reaching roughly 40 million readers worldwide."

                Nowhere that I am aware of does ElReg claim to be British. They seem to view themselves as citizens of The Internet.

                1. captain veg Silver badge

                  Re: Microsoft vet

                  I refer you to the fount of all knowledge,

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Register

                  -A.

                  1. jake Silver badge

                    Re: Microsoft vet

                    "the fount of all knowledge [citation needed],"

                    FTFY

                    1. captain veg Silver badge

                      Re: Microsoft vet

                      You already know this.

                      "Starting out in London in 1994 as an occasional email newsletter, The Register began publishing online daily in 1998. Today we have journalists in America, Europe, Asia-Pacific, and Britain covering the worlds of enterprise technology, business software, and much more besides every working hour: The sun never sets on El Reg."

                      I believe that's London England, and that the sun setting allusion is to the British Empire.

                      -A.

                      1. jake Silver badge

                        Re: Microsoft vet

                        That is the history, not the current state of the rag.

                        1. captain veg Silver badge

                          Re: Microsoft vet

                          $ whois theregister.com

                          Domain Name: THEREGISTER.COM

                          Registry Domain ID: 1235876_DOMAIN_COM-VRSN

                          Registrar WHOIS Server: whois.corporatedomains.com

                          [blah blah redacted]

                          Registrant Name: Drew Cullen

                          Registrant Organization: Situation Publishing Ltd

                          Registrant Street: First Floor, The Lightwell

                          Registrant City: London

                          Registrant State/Province: London

                          Registrant Postal Code: EC1R 4PF

                          Registrant Country: GB

                          Registrant Phone: +44.8448544970

                          [... etc]

                          Good enough?

                          -A.

  16. Henry Wertz 1 Gold badge

    I have not had this problem

    I haven't had this problem. I run Ubuntu, not Windows on my PCs (so they do update but don't demand it, and don't get flakey and force reboots.). And I am into tech but not at all into so-called 'inteenet of things' so no internet connected toothbrush for me thanks.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I have not had this problem

      Aw come on ... you're missing out on all the excitement! Think about it, you could have been part of a chipper 3 million-strong malware-laden toothbrush botnet DDoS-ing Switzerland!

  17. IceC0ld

    yes, the future may be here, but is is certainly an odd one :o)

    example, before I take my motorbike out for a run, I have to ensure the HELMET is charged up ...........

    so that the link to the phone [ NEVER used whilst riding]

    link to the GPS

    and the cameras are all up and running

    gone are the days of just leaping aboard and feckin off LOL

    is it a good thing ?

    IMHO it has ups and downs associated to it

    in the main it is better, there are the odd outliers that just look, sound, FEEL weird

    but we can't push the genie back in the bottle - so best to just get on with it, enjoy the bits you Do like, and try to ignore the mess of stuff not needed, being used

    1. Gene Cash Silver badge

      I have that shit on my Yamaha Tracer GT+. I discovered if you load the Yamaha app, it continuously fights for the screen with Google Maps.

      So I deleted it.

      The only thing I need is the phone (for Google Maps) and the Bluetooth GPS (because the phone GPS shit itself) and I don't have any cameras.

      I did discover the bike firmware update is a zipped EXT4 filesystem, and that the dash was made by Garmin for Yamaha. I also discovered the public key it uses to authenticate the firmware bundle, but alas, they weren't stupid enough to supply the private key.

      So my bike runs systemd, wayland, and miraclecast on the Yocto Linux distro. I shit you not.

      And yes, it will pair to the phone and let me take calls while I am riding!

      Plus it will display the current weather. WTAF. I'm on a MOTORCYCLE, I KNOW what the weather is!

      It does have an excellent user interface. Whoever designed it deserves a beer.

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      "is it a good thing ?"

      No. Can't you get a crash helmet that's just a crash helmet any more?

      1. Bebu sa Ware
        Windows

        No. Can't you get a crash helmet that's just a crash helmet any more?

        Not a rider but I imagined a helmet was to preserve enough to make identification of the bits easier.

        Head up displays in automobiles are distracting enough I cannot imagine how much more so in a bicycle helmet.

        I guess "you pays your money and you makes your choice." Unfortunately the second part is rapidly disappearing.

        1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

          Re: No. Can't you get a crash helmet that's just a crash helmet any more?

          Not a rider but I imagined a helmet was to preserve enough to make identification of the bits easier.

          No - the helmet was for trying to ensure that low-speed accidents didn't kill you by your skull cracking on the road after hitting it at 20mph..

          Oh - and protecting your face from random stones/bees [1] (which is why I find open-face helmets pointless) and, for some bikers, ensuring that people don't get a good look at your face.

  18. Blackjack Silver badge

    My toothbrushes are 100% analog thank you, same for all my kitchenware and my fridge.

    1. Antron Argaiv Silver badge
      WTF?

      Just noticed that the new washer SWMBO purchased shows up on my wifi scan. No, it will NOT be connected. Nor will the "smart" TV (it must go through the HDMI interfaces on the Firestick or the AppleTV for its program material, thus avoiding vendor delivered advertising)

  19. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge

    Microsoft Cavities 365

    As recommended by Dentists' Accountants

  20. Tim99 Silver badge

    Sigh...

    I have a coffee machine that has served me well for ~8 years. It has started to make the occasional "funny noise". I am thinking of buying a replacement before it dies. I'm retired from paid work, but still write software, so I **need** coffee. The nice man in the store showed me its direct replacement, and proudly told me that it "talks to your phone", and "can go online". I told him that I needed a machine that just made coffee - He thought that the new one "might work" without have to load its app...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Sigh...

      Reminds me of that Welsh woman, who also modernly "talked" to her phone, but in a somewhat roundabout way, and could surely go online. She probably inspired some of these new coffee machine tech enhancements too!

    2. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

      Re: Sigh...

      I have a coffee machine that has served me well for ~8 years. It has started to make the occasional "funny noise"

      In the first lockdown [1] I bought myself a bean-to-cup machine [2]. 3 years later, it starts peeing out water whenever the steamer unit gets used. Look it up online - steamer unit (little metal tube bent round a heating iron) must be broken. £45 for a replacement + £10 for the tools to undo the 'security' screws (torx with a central spike so normal torx bits won't fit).

      Not much of a choice - £55 for the bits and an hour or so of taking it apart [3], fixing it then putting it back together or £650 for a new unit (mine is now obsolete - the new one *has* to be paired with an app because that's the only way you can adjust the brew or define user settings..). So, £55 later and about 3 hours, I now have a fully working coffee machine again with a few leftover screws (casing fasteners - not structually important). Made the budgeting authority happy as she hates spending money.

      [1] Wasn't allowed out of the house (compomised immune system and all that) for a lot of it - until the vaccienes came out.

      [2] Didn't drink much coffee before (can't stand instant, especially as it gives me migraines) but really missed it.

      [3] With lots of photos so I knew what connected where - both cabling and water.

      1. Tim99 Silver badge

        Re: Sigh...

        Excellent. Definitely worth it for the satisfaction, as well as savings. Mine is not so clear cut. I can buy a replacement for ~£100. It uses £0.50-0.70 capsules, so that is where they make their money. I used a £40 Aeropress for a number of years (filters ~£0.02 each) but gave it up when frailty suggested that driving it was not a good idea. The current machine has a simple automatic lever and button that requires no effort - Its replacement has a stiff manual rotary lever.

        One thing about being an old fart is that it is expected that you will probably complain... I did smile when I told the salesman that the new system hard to use, He tried to demonstrate its ease of use with one hand, but then had to use the other to hold the machine down. Its predecessor worked with a light finger press.

  21. LybsterRoy Silver badge

    --

    "My electric toothbrush was acting up," he said. "The internet says that I needed to reboot my electric toothbrush."

    "Pretty much no part of that last sentence made any sense 40 years ago."

    --

    It still doesn't

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Daily occurance?

    It's Monday - and I've been hit with this TWICE so-far (we start the week on Sunday here)

    1. Main work computer running Windows - Outlook stopped sending emails. Ended up having to install Microshaft's upgrade (over 1 hour wasted waiting)

    2. Neighbor's Windows computer stopped playing audio. Was wiser this time - checked that upgrades were needed to be installed. Confirmed and rebooted. All back to normal. (20 minutes).

    All my home systems - BaU (they are all Linux - Ubuntu & Raspian).

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Daily occurance?

      So you turned off the automatic updates so you could moan about how long it takes to do them manually?

      You missed a $ in microshaft, but nearly a full bingo card of anti ms cliches, good effort!

      Oh, you run linux at home?

      Do tell us about it.

      Repeatedly.

      On every article that mentions MS.

      Thanks!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Daily occurance?

        Bork!Bork!Bork!

  23. IamAProton

    You are part of the problem

    If you buy an electric toothbrush that has a micro-controller in it you shouldn't be surprised it's acting up from time to time.

    If you REALLY NEED it to be electric find something that is 'electric' and not 'electronic'.

    It's much easier to design appliances full of damn controllers and actuators VS the more reliable (and easily fixable) electrical/mechanical way.

    I try not to buy stuff that its designed to fail, very often it requires going from "I need X" to "I do not really need X".

    1. Tim99 Silver badge

      Re: You are part of the problem

      I have used a SURI toothbrush for 32 months now. It has been one of my best "little treats".

  24. jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid Silver badge

    The computers have taken over our machines.

    So many of our simple machines these days need rebooting, or just work a bit rubbish because computing has become so cheap that computers run everything. And I don't mean a simple microcontroller, I mean an entire (albeit small) OS on a general purpose processor to do simple mechanised tasks.

    In our office we have new paper shredders. They have one task to do. When they are switched on, nothing happens for a long enough time, to make you crawl behind it to check the power lead, then the full colour screen (on a shredder!) lights up to tell you the shredder is "starting up". It takes longer from power on to starting work than it does to do the job. Same goes for my "simple" inkjet printer at home. I get that it needs some software to make everything work together, but it takes an age to not only turn on, but off as well. And since when did turning off a printer require a user message saying "ending, please wait a moment"?

    Light bulbs, door bells, light switches, watches, car heating controls (my other half's car won't allow you to use any of the ventilation controls until about 10s after switch on because "booting up"). Grrr.

  25. 0laf Silver badge

    Features

    Never mind the quality count the features.

    People have been told to measure quality not by materials or fit and finish but in the number of things the item claims it can do.

    A an electric toothbrush cleans teeth by means of a rotating brush head. After you've added recharging and a number of natty colours marketing has pretty much covered the bases with that. So then you end up with apps, bluetooth and now AI all to differentiate between differnt brands of devices which clean via a rotating brush head.

    Mordern cars are the living embodiment of this. A thousand features to justify price inflation but the majority are software driven and laregely unnecessary . The actual cars get cheaper and shittier on the inside than ever before despite the prices getting ever higher. Are cars getting more efficient, more reliable, more comfortable, longer lasting? No they aren't (irrespective of your motive power).

    1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

      Re: Features

      Please state your location. Continent and "north or south of equator" might be enough. Why? 'cause there ARE cars which live long, without all the unneeded nonsense. But it depends on where you live which cars are avail and which cars are most commonly bought.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Features

        In UK (possibly EU) if you know a little about cars, you probably know about cars and engine like the VW 1.9 TDI from the late 90s and early 00's. An engine that would do 60+ mpg, give a sub 9sec 0-60, and would run for... well we don't know yet as there are still so many on the road many with mileage north of 250k. VAG of this era were comfortable, reasonably kitted for the age, no touchscreens, and ( I would argue) the pinnacle of user interfaces with pretty much everything accessible and controllable without taking your eyes off the road. These car are 25yr old and many will still manage 60mpg and are likely to be driven by cockroaches after the AI apocolypse.

        Roll forward 25yr and I get a BMW ix3 as a curtesy car. The interior is bedecked with switches which would not look or feel out of place on some of my kids cheap toys. Every surface is covered in shiny hard, thin plastics covered in scratches and fingerprints. A £50k car that felt like a cheap chinese toy. If you look around at otehr modern cars they have thin LED lights on corners which will get knocked.

        Touchscreens everywhere (cheaper than dials) which can crash and go blank (Range Rover), scratch or just require you to distractedly look for the right menu while not looking at the screen.

        Cars are crap now and it's irrelevant if they are EV or ICE. Both crap cheap and won't last.

        1. gryphon

          Re: Features

          Problem being that vehicles with that engine are being banned from most major cities in England due to Low Emission Zones.

          Although in England you can at least pay a toll if you have the temerity to actually want to get somewhere but not have the money to buy a new vehicle.

          In Scotland banned from all major cities LEZ's AND it's a £60 fine that doubles with each subsequent 'infringement'.

          Although in saying that if you drive a vehicle more than 30 years old it's exempt.

    2. This post has been deleted by its author

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Features

      "cars get cheaper and shittier on the inside than ever before despite the prices getting ever higher."

      Here in EU they've lobbied mandatory 'stability control' and other BS like that and why is that? Building a proper suspension to a car costs money.

      Use a suspension from 1930s and slap 'stability control', i.e. crappy software, which doesn't cost anything on top of it and call it a 'safety feature'.

      It kind of is: Turn it off and it's actually dangerous to drive, so you can't turn it off. Problem solved.

      Or 'lane assist' which pulls you to the ditch when it finds snow on the road. Again mandatory 'safety feature' you have to have because steering is literally a force feedback steering wheel with (almost) no connection to wheels and zero feel, just because *it's cheaper*. I'd like to know if I'm driving on (black) ice or wet tarmac, but the car won't tell me even that.

      How about gazillion blinkenlichts and beeps telling you systems are OK? Electric cars being the worst offenders but same cancer is spreading to others too. A modern version of 1990s websites: Everything blinks or beebs or both, literally for no reason, just because someone in the factory thought it would be *fun*(!).

      Then there's the other direction: Most cars have some kind of traction control and now, when you drive a car which hasn't, and it slides a bit, police comes and fines you for 'reckless driving'. Minor slides were totally normal when the car was new, it has transformed to a crime only now when most cars have traction control. Rules change on the fly: Legislation hasn't changed at all.

      Mine has limited slip differential ... a lot better than banging ABS and braking one wheel. But it also means it slides easily on snow. Major crime nowadays.

  26. bill 27
    Facepalm

    Used to joke at work..."Ah, moved the mouse! Gotta reboot."

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